Need official cannon clarification - Clerics and Patron Deities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Need official cannon clarification - Clerics and Patron Deities [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Meldread
07-04-07, 08:32 PM Alright, I'm having a debate with some folks and I've been looking but I cannot find it. I know somewhere - either in a source book or stated by Ed Greenwood - that Clerics are not monotheists. While their powers and spells are granted from a single deity, their patron, they are still free to give thanks and praise to other deities as needed or required. (With noteable exceptions.)

For example: A Cleric of Torm before going on a long sea voyage may toss a few coins toward Umberlee. A Cleric of a Mulhorandi Deity would still most likely be giving significant amounts of praise and worship to Horus-Re. An Elven Cleric, even if they don't follow Corellon, will still likely give him the occasional praise as he is the creator of their race.

Am I wrong in this? This has always been how I've viewed religion in the Realm's, but more and more I've seen people want to make it more like monotheism where a Cleric ONLY worships their deity giving no praise to others. Even going as far as to see other clerics as a potential threat to their religion. (Such as a Tormite Cleric seeing a Cleric of Waukeen as a threat.)

Again, am I wrong in this? Is there official cannon information in a sourcebook or by Ed Greenwood - or someone else - something I can point to and end all debate?
Alac Luin
07-04-07, 10:05 PM FRCS pg 39 under Religion..
"The selection of a patron does not mean that your character only worships or makes prayers and offerings to only one deity. <snip> At appropriate moments, characters might worship or pay homage to nearly all the deities. <snip>"

There is more, but it does not specifically state "cleric" at all.
So, this may not prove either your case, or theirs.
This section does say it is not "monotheistic", read for yourself.

Then you can look at the FRCS page 232 under "worship"
Meldread
07-05-07, 10:17 AM Yeah Alac I know about that. The argument used against it is based on the fact that it doesn't specifically say clerics. It is generally accepted that lay worshipers give praise to multiple deities, the disagreement is over clerics.
Stigger
07-05-07, 10:48 AM Well, you could go back to 2e, Prayers from the Faithful implies fairly strongly that you can serve multiple deities in the opening introduction, with what seems to be words from a cleric who seems to serve Lathander, Mystra, and Oghma.
Alac Luin
07-05-07, 12:43 PM Well, I can go back to the front of the book, in character classed, the only classes that mention choosing a patron are cleric, druid, paladin and ranger (all divine casters).

One reason they don't specify cleric in the other sections, is that it standard for all characters.
On the other hand, there are zealots in every faith, and even not going that far a cleric of Valkur would never make an offer to Umberlee.

The examples you given in the first post are acceptable and standard practice.
I say take heart in realizing you have it right.
There is even less evidence to support the opposite position.
(I am trying to help, sorry I can't be of more service)

EDIT: To expand on what Stigger mentioned, in the shinning south, the major religion has clerics devoted to several deities at on time.
dragonheart
07-05-07, 01:36 PM mealread - part of the problem you are runninginto is that modern monotheistic folks REALLY! don't understand how polytheistic faiths work and so to be comfortable they try to view them as a mad group of interacting/competing monotheistic faiths to keep everything simple and easy. you have the right of it in this case however!:D CHeck Ed's comments are ask the hooded one directly over at Candlekeep I know he has discussed this several times as it keeps coming back up (yuck it does taste bad the nth time up too :P )
admdavid
07-06-07, 01:18 PM I just recently read something that Ed said regarding this. He said something to the effect that while folks might identify more with one god over another, they would not think twice about thanking Chauntea for a good harvest or pray to Talos to hold His storms at bay during the growing season, pray to Waukeen for favorable exchange rates when selling his crops, etc.

I think the same can be applied to clerics. They have a patron whom they serve but they have perhaps even a better understanding of how the gods work together (or don't, as the case may be) and would be more apt to acknowledge the other gods and pray to them as the need arises.

Just my opinion :)
Meldread
07-06-07, 06:38 PM That was my understanding as well Admdavid with a few exceptions such as Bane and Cyric whose dogma is basically, "Worship no one but me." However, there is (or rather was) debate over if the deities were practitioners of Monolatrism or not. Basically, Monolatry is defined as "the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity."

I spent a long time yesterday looking through 2006 and 2007 postings by Ed on Candlekeep and came up empty handed. My personal view is that Cleric's, like lay followers, are still inclined to offer occasional prayers as needed to other deities within certain limits. (For example, you might not see a Priestess of Shar giving prayers to Selune to aid her in navigation or on an important quest. Or a priest of Valkur giving prayers to Umberlee.) However, giving prayer to other deities especially deities that don't really take sides - like Waukeen - might be common place.

However, the general feeling that stood against me was that a Cleric would NEVER give prayers to another deity no matter what and that if they did so, the cleric would immediately be stripped of their powers and abilities.
Alac Luin
07-06-07, 08:43 PM FRCS pg 290...
"All the gods of Faerun recognize that thier fellow gods have thier own portfolios and spheres of control, and none prevent thier followers from recognizeing the same thing."
OK, mabey that didn't help... I'm still trying :)
Meldread
07-06-07, 10:42 PM Yeah, I know! Thanks. Really, the debate is over and I lost simply because I was out numbered, but it irks me because I feel that I was correct. Really, I think the only thing that will clear it up is a statement by Ed one way or another.
Fingoldfin
07-06-07, 11:22 PM I can not remember the name of the book, but there was a character who was a
fighter/sorcerer/ cleric of waukeen. A few times in the book he thanked lady luck
for helping him out.

Does anyone else remember this? His younger sister was a thief and his aunt was a high level monk. He was from a noble family.
Borris
07-07-07, 02:37 AM If that can make you feel better, Meldread, I share your opinion, and so do all the people I play with. When appropriate, a cleric will make small prayers to a deity that's not his patron, so long at it's not an enemy or rival of his patron deity. I've played a cleric of Oghma who would offer prayers to Lathander so that those around him wouldn't lose hope, or make small offereings to Umberlee before setting sail on rough waters. Neither the DM nor any of the other players found it odd.

Of course, I've also seen friends play overzealous characters who would only give praise to a single character. "May Tymora guide us to the truth!" "Lady Luck, please let this ship find the shore safely." "The rain has stopped at last. Tymora must be smiling upon us!"
Zevox
07-07-07, 02:37 AM The books Fingoldfin is thinking of are the Scions of Arrabar Trilogy, and the character in question is Vambran Matrell.

Also, the novel Heirs of Prophecy from the Sembia series has a Half-Elf Cleric who worships both Sune and Hanali Celanil equally (and receives spells from both). Larajin Uskevren.

Zevox
Wizardman
07-07-07, 02:57 AM Of course, I've also seen friends play overzealous characters who would only give praise to a single character. "May Tymora guide us to the truth!" "Lady Luck, please let this ship find the shore safely." "The rain has stopped at last. Tymora must be smiling upon us!"

The second example is not inappropriate, as there is some chance involved, but I see your point.
captaincarot
07-07-07, 03:16 AM i would say there is nothing to stop a cleric offering a thought to another deity but why would they.

look at it this way.

if said cleric accidentally fell off a cliff and landed in a tree just under the lip , would they offer a thought to tymora for making them land in the tree, or their own god for watching over them and protecting them.

secondly would they then go and call on tymora for the windwalk/fly spell to get them out of it or on their own deity.

so personally i would have clerics primarily give thanks to the deity/ies that they recieve their spells from, for the simple reason that they have dedicated their lives to that deity.

and just as an asside, the first person who points out that the cleric in the above example would if they worshiped tymora, will be cursed, that their arse be infested with the fleas of a thousand camels and their arms grow to short to scratch it.
Alac Luin
07-07-07, 11:09 PM Well, if the cleric that fell into the tree worshiped Tymora, it would be appropriate :P

Here are a few examples
- A cleric of Luthic would commonly give praise to Grummish to keep the tribe safe.
- A priest of Mask asking for Shar to to keep things in darkness.
- A cleric of Torm asking for a blessing from Sune or Sharess during their R&R /weekend pass.
- A Cleric of Moradin asking Dumathoin to revel gems on a mining expedition.

So why would they? Why wouldn't they?
I thank Kelemvor for the harvest that brought me this bread?
captaincarot
07-08-07, 04:08 AM Here are a few examples

[quote]- A priest of Mask asking for Shar to to keep things in darkness.

oh mask watch over me and guide my steps through the darkness, that i can pull this heist and revel in your greatness.

- A cleric of Torm asking for a blessing from Sune or Sharess during their R&R /weekend pass.

oh great Torm please grant me the succour of a time in beauty and revels. so that i can ready my self to push forward your great prupose.

- A Cleric of Moradin asking Dumathoin to revel gems on a mining expedition.

oh moradin please guide us to dumathoins bounties.

you see the thing is there really isn't a need for a cleric to give praise to some one other than their focussed deity. the general populous i have no problem with them calling on every deity in faerun in one invocation before they get out of bed in a morning just to be safe, it just don't seem right for a cleric to do it.

are you feeling any strange itches yet :evillaugh :pbbbtt:
Faraer
07-08-07, 09:04 AM Is there official cannon information in a sourcebook or by Ed Greenwood - or someone else - something I can point to and end all debate?There is, as Fredric Brown wrote, now. Look here (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8518&whichpage=44).
captaincarot
07-08-07, 09:35 AM well that's me wrong then, very informative article that one.
bitter thorn
07-08-07, 10:58 AM Yeah, I know! Thanks. Really, the debate is over and I lost simply because I was out numbered, but it irks me because I feel that I was correct. Really, I think the only thing that will clear it up is a statement by Ed one way or another.

I would also point out that there are at least 1 or 2 folks in the Forgotten Realms who are the Chosen of 2 different deities at the same time. The Drow Chosen of Mystra/Eilestree (sp?) comes to mind. This tells me that even clerics aren't absolutely monotheistic in the Realms.
Faraer
07-08-07, 11:09 AM Yeah, the "many who serve more than one divine name" mentioned in Prayers from the Faithful.
Old Sage
07-08-07, 11:48 AM We've seen examples of divine casters who receive their spells from two different deities.

- Salyndra Shaern, who is a female half-elf cleric and worships both Oghma and Corellon equally.

- Myrmeen Lhal, the ranger and ruler of Arabel, worships both Mielikki and Tymora.

- And there is also Larajin, as Zevox noted above -- from Heirs of Prophecy by Lisa Smedman -- she worships both Hanali and Sune.
MarkusTay63
07-08-07, 12:39 PM Let's not forget the Drow Traitor-Priests, who worship Lolth and Vhaerun. ;)

Quilue (sp?) is the perfect example she's not just a priest, she's the chosen of two gods!

Also, there are several churches in the Realms that worship more then one deity, like the one for the Triad in Impiltur, who have Knights that recieve spells from all three (Triadic Knight Prc, CoV). Their is spirit Soaring which serves Deneir and Ohgma, and there was also that group in Blackstaff, the Pentad, which had priests of human, Elven, Dwarven, and Gnome Gods amongst their membership!

So, does that sound like monotheistic competition to you?

Your friends are idiots, and obviously don't know a damn thing about the Realms!.
Alac Luin
07-08-07, 05:15 PM There is, as Fredric Brown wrote, <snip>
That was a fantastic read, thank you for asking Ed.
I'm completely amazed at the "Pray, a few sentences about that?" request can get such an answer :)
Gelcur
07-08-07, 07:16 PM And I was going to direct you to this (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/ed-prayers.htm) vague errata to Prayers of the Faithful, General issue #2.

Hehe but that post is much better. =)
Meldread
07-08-07, 07:25 PM Huge thanks to Ed. And thanks to Faraer for asking over at Candlekeep!

That should clear it up.
bitter thorn
07-09-07, 07:46 PM We've seen examples of divine casters who receive their spells from two different deities.

- Salyndra Shaern, who is a female half-elf cleric and worships both Oghma and Corellon equally.

- Myrmeen Lhal, the ranger and ruler of Arabel, worships both Mielikki and Tymora.

- And there is also Larajin, as Zevox noted above -- from Heirs of Prophecy by Lisa Smedman -- she worships both Hanali and Sune.

Is Myrmeen's dual worship from the Night Parade? Did she actually get spells from both? I was under the impression that she was a Ranger of Tymora, and Tymora was the source of her Ranger spells. (what I based this conclusion on escapes me at the moment)
dragonheart
07-10-07, 02:33 PM [quote] <SNIP>
you see the thing is there really isn't a need for a cleric to give praise to some one other than their focussed deity. the general populous i have no problem with them calling on every deity in faerun in one invocation before they get out of bed in a morning just to be safe, it just don't seem right for a cleric to do it.

Ah but yoru trying to have things work like a multiple competing monotheisms here not like a polytheism - in your version all the gods are competing to be all powerful and are/would be constantly stepping on each other's toes. In polytheism they each respect the other's area of control and seldom overstep into each other's areas - the evil ones are generally more likely to do this. Think of monotheism as a "one-man-band" while polytheism is an orchestra. certainly of the one man is playing an organ he can mimic each instrument in the band if he has to - but can he adequately mimic all 75 at the same time?

so for your examples:
the preist of mask - yes he could pray as you suggested but odds are that Shar will remind him of her existance and power by pulling the darkness at teh most inorportune time for the preist. the preist falling off the cliff only to land in a tree top - if he wants to ever have a stroke of good luck again he will whisper his thanks to Tymora - same sorts of things for all the other examples - especially in a world like Faerun where the gods really are active (as opposed to earth where its effectively impossible to identify any deific effects that everyone can agree with. (here you could get away with praying like you suggested since there would be no responses.
That is the big thing to keep in mind - in toril the Gods do respond - both to praise and to slights - just like the workers in a big office - if you want to keep getting things done its best to say thanks to all the folks that helped out rather than always praising only one - even your if its your boss! (brown nosing only goes so far when you only do it to one :P
Zandilar
07-10-07, 06:37 PM Heya,

Is Myrmeen's dual worship from the Night Parade? Did she actually get spells from both? I was under the impression that she was a Ranger of Tymora, and Tymora was the source of her Ranger spells. (what I based this conclusion on escapes me at the moment)

Hmm... No, actually, Myrmeen's faith is never addressed in The Night Parade. In fact, like Drizzt, Myrmeen is never seen to cast a single spell, at least in that book (and the short story A Virtue by Reflection also by Scott Ciencin in Realms of Valor) - and I can't recall her casting spells in her various cameos in Ed's Cormyr based novels (though I haven't finished Swords of Eveningstar yet, so we'll see).

At some point of time in Myrmeen's past, Myrmeen was "traded" to Tymora from Mielikki as far as who her true patron (provider of spells) is - this apparently was a deal between the two goddesses, and not a choice Myrmeen herself made (except that she obviously decided to go along with the plan). Whether or not she still worships Mielikki at all has never actually been revealed in source material. Ed has suggested (over at Candlekeep) that Tymora's presence in Arabel during the Time of Troubles probably had something to do with Myrmeen holding her favour. What that means, exactly, is anyone's guess. :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Meldread 07-04-07, 08:32 PM	Alright, I'm having a debate with some folks and I've been looking but I cannot find it. I know somewhere - either in a source book or stated by Ed Greenwood - that Clerics are not monotheists. While their powers and spells are granted from a single deity, their patron, they are still free to give thanks and praise to other deities as needed or required. (With noteable exceptions.) For example: A Cleric of Torm before going on a long sea voyage may toss a few coins toward Umberlee. A Cleric of a Mulhorandi Deity would still most likely be giving significant amounts of praise and worship to Horus-Re. An Elven Cleric, even if they don't follow Corellon, will still likely give him the occasional praise as he is the creator of their race. Am I wrong in this? This has always been how I've viewed religion in the Realm's, but more and more I've seen people want to make it more like monotheism where a Cleric ONLY worships their deity giving no praise to others. Even going as far as to see other clerics as a potential threat to their religion. (Such as a Tormite Cleric seeing a Cleric of Waukeen as a threat.) Again, am I wrong in this? Is there official cannon information in a sourcebook or by Ed Greenwood - or someone else - something I can point to and end all debate?
Alac Luin 07-04-07, 10:05 PM	FRCS pg 39 under Religion.. "The selection of a patron does not mean that your character only worships or makes prayers and offerings to only one deity. <snip> At appropriate moments, characters might worship or pay homage to nearly all the deities. <snip>" There is more, but it does not specifically state "cleric" at all. So, this may not prove either your case, or theirs. This section does say it is not "monotheistic", read for yourself. Then you can look at the FRCS page 232 under "worship"
Meldread 07-05-07, 10:17 AM	Yeah Alac I know about that. The argument used against it is based on the fact that it doesn't specifically say clerics. It is generally accepted that lay worshipers give praise to multiple deities, the disagreement is over clerics.
Stigger 07-05-07, 10:48 AM	Well, you could go back to 2e, Prayers from the Faithful implies fairly strongly that you can serve multiple deities in the opening introduction, with what seems to be words from a cleric who seems to serve Lathander, Mystra, and Oghma.
Alac Luin 07-05-07, 12:43 PM	Well, I can go back to the front of the book, in character classed, the only classes that mention choosing a patron are cleric, druid, paladin and ranger (all divine casters). One reason they don't specify cleric in the other sections, is that it standard for all characters. On the other hand, there are zealots in every faith, and even not going that far a cleric of Valkur would never make an offer to Umberlee. The examples you given in the first post are acceptable and standard practice. I say take heart in realizing you have it right. There is even less evidence to support the opposite position. (I am trying to help, sorry I can't be of more service) EDIT: To expand on what Stigger mentioned, in the shinning south, the major religion has clerics devoted to several deities at on time.
dragonheart 07-05-07, 01:36 PM	mealread - part of the problem you are runninginto is that modern monotheistic folks REALLY! don't understand how polytheistic faiths work and so to be comfortable they try to view them as a mad group of interacting/competing monotheistic faiths to keep everything simple and easy. you have the right of it in this case however!:D CHeck Ed's comments are ask the hooded one directly over at Candlekeep I know he has discussed this several times as it keeps coming back up (yuck it does taste bad the nth time up too :P )
admdavid 07-06-07, 01:18 PM	I just recently read something that Ed said regarding this. He said something to the effect that while folks might identify more with one god over another, they would not think twice about thanking Chauntea for a good harvest or pray to Talos to hold His storms at bay during the growing season, pray to Waukeen for favorable exchange rates when selling his crops, etc. I think the same can be applied to clerics. They have a patron whom they serve but they have perhaps even a better understanding of how the gods work together (or don't, as the case may be) and would be more apt to acknowledge the other gods and pray to them as the need arises. Just my opinion :)
Meldread 07-06-07, 06:38 PM	That was my understanding as well Admdavid with a few exceptions such as Bane and Cyric whose dogma is basically, "Worship no one but me." However, there is (or rather was) debate over if the deities were practitioners of Monolatrism or not. Basically, Monolatry is defined as "the recognition of the existence of many gods, but with the consistent worship of only one deity." I spent a long time yesterday looking through 2006 and 2007 postings by Ed on Candlekeep and came up empty handed. My personal view is that Cleric's, like lay followers, are still inclined to offer occasional prayers as needed to other deities within certain limits. (For example, you might not see a Priestess of Shar giving prayers to Selune to aid her in navigation or on an important quest. Or a priest of Valkur giving prayers to Umberlee.) However, giving prayer to other deities especially deities that don't really take sides - like Waukeen - might be common place. However, the general feeling that stood against me was that a Cleric would NEVER give prayers to another deity no matter what and that if they did so, the cleric would immediately be stripped of their powers and abilities.
Alac Luin 07-06-07, 08:43 PM	FRCS pg 290... "All the gods of Faerun recognize that thier fellow gods have thier own portfolios and spheres of control, and none prevent thier followers from recognizeing the same thing." OK, mabey that didn't help... I'm still trying :)
Meldread 07-06-07, 10:42 PM	Yeah, I know! Thanks. Really, the debate is over and I lost simply because I was out numbered, but it irks me because I feel that I was correct. Really, I think the only thing that will clear it up is a statement by Ed one way or another.
Fingoldfin 07-06-07, 11:22 PM	I can not remember the name of the book, but there was a character who was a fighter/sorcerer/ cleric of waukeen. A few times in the book he thanked lady luck for helping him out. Does anyone else remember this? His younger sister was a thief and his aunt was a high level monk. He was from a noble family.
Borris 07-07-07, 02:37 AM	If that can make you feel better, Meldread, I share your opinion, and so do all the people I play with. When appropriate, a cleric will make small prayers to a deity that's not his patron, so long at it's not an enemy or rival of his patron deity. I've played a cleric of Oghma who would offer prayers to Lathander so that those around him wouldn't lose hope, or make small offereings to Umberlee before setting sail on rough waters. Neither the DM nor any of the other players found it odd. Of course, I've also seen friends play overzealous characters who would only give praise to a single character. "May Tymora guide us to the truth!" "Lady Luck, please let this ship find the shore safely." "The rain has stopped at last. Tymora must be smiling upon us!"
Zevox 07-07-07, 02:37 AM	The books Fingoldfin is thinking of are the Scions of Arrabar Trilogy, and the character in question is Vambran Matrell. Also, the novel Heirs of Prophecy from the Sembia series has a Half-Elf Cleric who worships both Sune and Hanali Celanil equally (and receives spells from both). Larajin Uskevren. Zevox
Wizardman 07-07-07, 02:57 AM	Of course, I've also seen friends play overzealous characters who would only give praise to a single character. "May Tymora guide us to the truth!" "Lady Luck, please let this ship find the shore safely." "The rain has stopped at last. Tymora must be smiling upon us!" The second example is not inappropriate, as there is some chance involved, but I see your point.
captaincarot 07-07-07, 03:16 AM	i would say there is nothing to stop a cleric offering a thought to another deity but why would they. look at it this way. if said cleric accidentally fell off a cliff and landed in a tree just under the lip , would they offer a thought to tymora for making them land in the tree, or their own god for watching over them and protecting them. secondly would they then go and call on tymora for the windwalk/fly spell to get them out of it or on their own deity. so personally i would have clerics primarily give thanks to the deity/ies that they recieve their spells from, for the simple reason that they have dedicated their lives to that deity. and just as an asside, the first person who points out that the cleric in the above example would if they worshiped tymora, will be cursed, that their arse be infested with the fleas of a thousand camels and their arms grow to short to scratch it.
Alac Luin 07-07-07, 11:09 PM	Well, if the cleric that fell into the tree worshiped Tymora, it would be appropriate :P Here are a few examples - A cleric of Luthic would commonly give praise to Grummish to keep the tribe safe. - A priest of Mask asking for Shar to to keep things in darkness. - A cleric of Torm asking for a blessing from Sune or Sharess during their R&R /weekend pass. - A Cleric of Moradin asking Dumathoin to revel gems on a mining expedition. So why would they? Why wouldn't they? I thank Kelemvor for the harvest that brought me this bread?
captaincarot 07-08-07, 04:08 AM	Here are a few examples [quote]- A priest of Mask asking for Shar to to keep things in darkness. oh mask watch over me and guide my steps through the darkness, that i can pull this heist and revel in your greatness. - A cleric of Torm asking for a blessing from Sune or Sharess during their R&R /weekend pass. oh great Torm please grant me the succour of a time in beauty and revels. so that i can ready my self to push forward your great prupose. - A Cleric of Moradin asking Dumathoin to revel gems on a mining expedition. oh moradin please guide us to dumathoins bounties. you see the thing is there really isn't a need for a cleric to give praise to some one other than their focussed deity. the general populous i have no problem with them calling on every deity in faerun in one invocation before they get out of bed in a morning just to be safe, it just don't seem right for a cleric to do it. are you feeling any strange itches yet :evillaugh :pbbbtt:
Faraer 07-08-07, 09:04 AM	Is there official cannon information in a sourcebook or by Ed Greenwood - or someone else - something I can point to and end all debate?There is, as Fredric Brown wrote, now. Look here (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8518&whichpage=44).
captaincarot 07-08-07, 09:35 AM	well that's me wrong then, very informative article that one.
bitter thorn 07-08-07, 10:58 AM	Yeah, I know! Thanks. Really, the debate is over and I lost simply because I was out numbered, but it irks me because I feel that I was correct. Really, I think the only thing that will clear it up is a statement by Ed one way or another. I would also point out that there are at least 1 or 2 folks in the Forgotten Realms who are the Chosen of 2 different deities at the same time. The Drow Chosen of Mystra/Eilestree (sp?) comes to mind. This tells me that even clerics aren't absolutely monotheistic in the Realms.
Faraer 07-08-07, 11:09 AM	Yeah, the "many who serve more than one divine name" mentioned in Prayers from the Faithful.
Old Sage 07-08-07, 11:48 AM	We've seen examples of divine casters who receive their spells from two different deities. - Salyndra Shaern, who is a female half-elf cleric and worships both Oghma and Corellon equally. - Myrmeen Lhal, the ranger and ruler of Arabel, worships both Mielikki and Tymora. - And there is also Larajin, as Zevox noted above -- from Heirs of Prophecy by Lisa Smedman -- she worships both Hanali and Sune.
MarkusTay63 07-08-07, 12:39 PM	Let's not forget the Drow Traitor-Priests, who worship Lolth and Vhaerun. ;) Quilue (sp?) is the perfect example she's not just a priest, she's the chosen of two gods! Also, there are several churches in the Realms that worship more then one deity, like the one for the Triad in Impiltur, who have Knights that recieve spells from all three (Triadic Knight Prc, CoV). Their is spirit Soaring which serves Deneir and Ohgma, and there was also that group in Blackstaff, the Pentad, which had priests of human, Elven, Dwarven, and Gnome Gods amongst their membership! So, does that sound like monotheistic competition to you? Your friends are idiots, and obviously don't know a damn thing about the Realms!.
Alac Luin 07-08-07, 05:15 PM	There is, as Fredric Brown wrote, <snip> That was a fantastic read, thank you for asking Ed. I'm completely amazed at the "Pray, a few sentences about that?" request can get such an answer :)
Gelcur 07-08-07, 07:16 PM	And I was going to direct you to this (http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Castle/2566/ed-prayers.htm) vague errata to Prayers of the Faithful, General issue #2. Hehe but that post is much better. =)
Meldread 07-08-07, 07:25 PM	Huge thanks to Ed. And thanks to Faraer for asking over at Candlekeep! That should clear it up.
bitter thorn 07-09-07, 07:46 PM	We've seen examples of divine casters who receive their spells from two different deities. - Salyndra Shaern, who is a female half-elf cleric and worships both Oghma and Corellon equally. - Myrmeen Lhal, the ranger and ruler of Arabel, worships both Mielikki and Tymora. - And there is also Larajin, as Zevox noted above -- from Heirs of Prophecy by Lisa Smedman -- she worships both Hanali and Sune. Is Myrmeen's dual worship from the Night Parade? Did she actually get spells from both? I was under the impression that she was a Ranger of Tymora, and Tymora was the source of her Ranger spells. (what I based this conclusion on escapes me at the moment)
dragonheart 07-10-07, 02:33 PM	[quote] <SNIP> you see the thing is there really isn't a need for a cleric to give praise to some one other than their focussed deity. the general populous i have no problem with them calling on every deity in faerun in one invocation before they get out of bed in a morning just to be safe, it just don't seem right for a cleric to do it. Ah but yoru trying to have things work like a multiple competing monotheisms here not like a polytheism - in your version all the gods are competing to be all powerful and are/would be constantly stepping on each other's toes. In polytheism they each respect the other's area of control and seldom overstep into each other's areas - the evil ones are generally more likely to do this. Think of monotheism as a "one-man-band" while polytheism is an orchestra. certainly of the one man is playing an organ he can mimic each instrument in the band if he has to - but can he adequately mimic all 75 at the same time? so for your examples: the preist of mask - yes he could pray as you suggested but odds are that Shar will remind him of her existance and power by pulling the darkness at teh most inorportune time for the preist. the preist falling off the cliff only to land in a tree top - if he wants to ever have a stroke of good luck again he will whisper his thanks to Tymora - same sorts of things for all the other examples - especially in a world like Faerun where the gods really are active (as opposed to earth where its effectively impossible to identify any deific effects that everyone can agree with. (here you could get away with praying like you suggested since there would be no responses. That is the big thing to keep in mind - in toril the Gods do respond - both to praise and to slights - just like the workers in a big office - if you want to keep getting things done its best to say thanks to all the folks that helped out rather than always praising only one - even your if its your boss! (brown nosing only goes so far when you only do it to one :P
Zandilar 07-10-07, 06:37 PM	Heya, Is Myrmeen's dual worship from the Night Parade? Did she actually get spells from both? I was under the impression that she was a Ranger of Tymora, and Tymora was the source of her Ranger spells. (what I based this conclusion on escapes me at the moment) Hmm... No, actually, Myrmeen's faith is never addressed in The Night Parade. In fact, like Drizzt, Myrmeen is never seen to cast a single spell, at least in that book (and the short story A Virtue by Reflection also by Scott Ciencin in Realms of Valor) - and I can't recall her casting spells in her various cameos in Ed's Cormyr based novels (though I haven't finished Swords of Eveningstar yet, so we'll see). At some point of time in Myrmeen's past, Myrmeen was "traded" to Tymora from Mielikki as far as who her true patron (provider of spells) is - this apparently was a deal between the two goddesses, and not a choice Myrmeen herself made (except that she obviously decided to go along with the plan). Whether or not she still worships Mielikki at all has never actually been revealed in source material. Ed has suggested (over at Candlekeep) that Tymora's presence in Arabel during the Time of Troubles probably had something to do with Myrmeen holding her favour. What that means, exactly, is anyone's guess. :)