Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Eladrinstar 07-01-07, 06:55 PM	This thread will be my attempt to fill in the information regarding the origins of every deity in the pantheons. If any of my speculations are wrong, inform me. Feel free to include your own speculation of origins of these or gods of other pantheons. Please fill in. Okay, here goes nothing. Azuth: Ascended mortal. Perhaps Netherese? I could see him Jhaamdathi. Bane: Ascended mortal. May be Netherese? Chauntea: Created by Shar and Selune. Orignally known as Jannath. Cyric: Ascended during the ToT. Eilistraee: Born of Correlon Larethian and Araushnee. Gond: Perhaps a ancient Rauthymari god, I read somewhere about there mechanical horrors. Or a Gnome god who left the pantheon. Perhaps he came to Toril before any gnomes arrived and became a human god? Helm: Wasn't he a Jhaamdathi god? Ilmatar: Was he an Finnish interloper, like Oghma and Loviatar? Kelemvor: Ascended mortal. Kossuth: Interloping elemental power? Lathander: Originally Ammaunator. Created by Selune from the plane of fire. Lolth: Once known as Araushnee, Seldarine goddess. Malar: It is implied in Evermeet that he is an interloper in many worlds, possibly Toril as well. Mask: Wasn't he an ascended mortal? He must have done so in a very ancient civilization, because in the Year of Rogue Dragons anthology his faith predates Netheril. Mielikki: Finnish interloper, yet a daughter of Silvanus, a Celtic interloper. Mystra: Was originally Mystryl, created accidently by Selune and Shar. She then after Karsus folly transferred her divinity to a pretty but drooling farm girl, becoming Mystra. Then she was killed in the ToT but transferred her power to Midnight, who became the new Mystra. Oghma: Finnish interloper. Selune: Spontaneously generated at the beginning of Realmspace. Shar: Spontaneously generated at the beginning of Realmspace. Shaundakal: Maybe of Moonshae origin? He sounds like a Celtic interloper. Silvanus: Celtic interloper. Sune: Netherese goddess? Talos: Once known as Kozah, and Netherese god. Tempus: A Talfiric god. Torm: Ascended mortal. Jhaamdathi? Tymora: Once was half of Tyche. Tyr: Norse interloper. Umberlee: Maybe just spontaneously generated? Uthgar: Ascended mortal. Ruathymari origin. Waukeen: Supposed to be relatively young. Perhaps an ascended mortal? Akadi: Interloping elemental power? Auril: Very ancient, existing aeons ago as seen is Evermeet. Perhaps spontaneously generated? Beshaba: Once half of Tyche. Deneir: Ascended mortal. Maybe Imaskari or Netherese? Eldath: Daughter of Silvanus. Garagos: Once known as the deity Targos, a netherese war god. Gargauth: A former arch-devil. Grumbar: Interloping elemental power. Gwaeron Windstrom: Ascended mortal. Hoar: Once known as Assuran, a ancient Untheric Deity. Istishia: Interloping elemental power? Jergal: Ancient god of death. Unknown pantheon of origin. Llira: Maybe Jhammdathi? Loviatar: Finnish interloper. Lurue: Said to be daughter of Selune. Milil: Jhaamdathi? Nobanion: Interloper. Who I really hope is not meant to be Aslan, because that would be really weird. Red Knight: Ascended mortal. From when and where? Savras: Once was patron of Southern spellcasters. Halruaan? Sharess: Once was Zandilar, Felidae, and Bast. Shiallia: Daughter of Tapann, god of Korreds. Talona: Edit: Interloper Tiamat: Dragon pantheon. Ubtao: Ancient deity from the days of thunder. Ulutiu: Perhaps descended from the giant pantheon. Valkur: Jhaamdathi? Velsharoon: Ascended mortal of Thayan origin.
Zsych 07-01-07, 07:29 PM	I don't think there are characters with as many Netherese or Jhaamdathi contacts as you suggest. And I think creatures like Sune came into being after Netheril had died. Talona, IIRC, is an interloper.
Lykor 07-01-07, 07:34 PM	Faiths And Pantheons should have information about all of the dieties (or at least a blurb about them) for all the major panetheons in the FR.
Eladrinstar 07-01-07, 07:50 PM	Faiths And Pantheons should have information about all of the dieties (or at least a blurb about them) for all the major panetheons in the FR. I know. It's right in front of me right now. But only about a third of those deities have a clearly stated origin. Many of those confirmed origins come from other sources, such as Netheril: The Arcane Age or Planescape. (BTW, I consider anything Planescape and Spelljammer says about a campaign setting, as long as it doesn't contradict anything, to be canon. Other people probably don't agree.)
Zsych 07-01-07, 07:58 PM	There were very few gods around in Netheril times, IIRC. And those that existed were simpler gods generally. I think that a lot of gods might have been spawned/attracted by human civilizations and their evolving ideas. Netheril, Imaskar and Jhaamdath were highly advanced but they weren't really interested in gods. ... with the Netherese wanting to be gods, the Imaskari wanting to be rid of gods(I understand their PoV. Just need to know that Shar is a good, and you should be worried about what could happen to your people), ... and the Jhaamdathi apparently only had one god... which they started to forget. .. the rest of humanity at the time were brutes I think, with Chauntea, or the then warrior god as their patrons.
Zevox 07-02-07, 12:47 AM	Bane: Ascended mortal. May be Netherese? I seem to recall hearing from somewhere that he may not even have been from the Realms when he was a mortal, but from some other world. My memory is sketchy, but I think it was the Simbul (the poster here, not the character) who mentioned it, though maybe it was Kuje. This is a very rough memory, mind you, so I may be totally off-base, but I think it came from a pretty reliable source (as either of those two would be). Ilmatar: Was he an Finnish interloper, like Oghma and Loviatar? No - note that his name's similarity (Ilmater vs Ilmatar) is the only one to the finnish entity (the sex is even different - Ilmater being male, Ilmatar being female). Grey Richardson mentioned at some point that he was an ascended mortal, though I never did get him to reveal where he got that info from or anything more about the story when I asked once. Still, hes a reliable source around here, so its likely he was right. Lathander: Originally Ammaunator. Created by Selune from the plane of fire. Its not actually confirmed that he is Aumantor reincarnated - in fact, the belief in such is a heresy of his faith (the Risen Sun heresy). It may be true, or it may be false, but its not definite either way. Mask: Wasn't he an ascended mortal? He must have done so in a very ancient civilization, because in the Year of Rogue Dragons anthology his faith predates Netheril. The novel Shadowbred implies he is indeed. His avatar says to Erevis Cale, his chief Chosen, that he was once very much like him. When Cale asks in disbelief if he was once a man, he simply reponds: "Maybe. More like a God who mistook himself for a man." What exactly that means is unknown - maybe theres more to the story than him just being a risen mortal, or maybe he just doesn't want anyone knowing he was once such and so weaves intrigue and lies about the story to mislead others. Just a theory here, but since its known that he possesses worshipers on worlds other than Toril, its possible he was an ascended mortal from such a world instead of Toril itself, and simply came to Toril through the Plane of Shadow connections he uses to maintain his faith in other worlds. The fact that his first Chosen, Kesson Rel, seems to be from such a world might support this (though little enough is known about Kesson as yet that I may simply be misinterpreting what I've read in that regard). Jergal: Ancient god of death. Unknown pantheon of origin. Possibly he was the first Deity of Death to be created from the conflict between Shar and Selūne near the beginning of time. He sure seems to be implied to be ancient enough. Nobanion: Interloper. Who I really hope is not meant to be Aslan, because that would be really weird. Not meant to be him, no, though he was the inspiration for him IIRC. Tiamat: Dragon pantheon. Untheric, actually. She was an interloper who came in with the rest of the Untheric and Mulhorandi Deities following their kidnapped followers. Presumably, so was Bahamut (though I think he has some alias in the Realms that he went by when in that pantheon - can't recall what though). Zevox
Eladrinstar 07-02-07, 03:03 AM	Its not actually confirmed that he is Aumantor reincarnated - in fact, the belief in such is a heresy of his faith (the Risen Sun heresy). It may be true, or it may be false, but its not definite either way. I thought this was canon. I thought the main body of Lathanderites acknowledged this. Isn't the Risen Son Heresy only considered heresy because they want Amaunator to return? Besides,the gods' link makes so much since if it isn't canon it likely will be soon.
Gray Richardson 07-02-07, 03:40 AM	Below are some additions, corrections and theories Azuth: Ascended mortal. Unclear where he was born. Possibly in the Calimshan region. His first temple was in Halruaa, I believe, but this is because he defeated Savras and the temple converted over to his worship. Bane: Ascended mortal. But not from Toril. The novel Stormlight seems to indicate he was born on another world. Chauntea: Created by Shar and Selune. Jannath was just one of her names. She is also called Earthmother. Helm: Jhamdaathi pantheon Ilmater: Ascended Mortal from the South, not the same as Ilmatar, not related to the Finnish pantheon in any way. Kossuth: ascended elemental Lathander: God of morning from the Talfiric pantheon in the Western Heartlands. Was worshiped in Athalantar over 1000 years ago. Has an unknown relationship with Amaunator. Malar: possibly the son of Talos, mother may be Chauntea. I suspect he was born of a horrible act of ravishment perpetrated by Talos on Chauntea during the War of Light and Darkness. Shaundakal: very ancient human deity, goes back as far at least as the ancient Rus. Sune: My theory is that she is the daughter of Selūne and Lathander. Others have suggested she might be a fragment of Venus who interloped and changed her name. Talos: One of the original fell forces that were spawned in the War of Light and Darkness. Torm: Ascended mortal from Lake of Steam area (Border Kingdoms). Umberlee: Probably Talfiric sea god. Waukeen: About a thousand years old, give or take. Origin seems tied to the birth of Thorass as a trade language. Probably originated in Jhamdaath or around Lake of Steam area. Might be one of the daughters of Auppenser and Eldath. Akadi: ascended air elemental Auril: A nature god of winter. Very ancient, over 30,000 years old at least. While she may possibly be a native deity, I have a theory that she could possibly be one of the Greek Horae, maybe Xarpo, that interloped over with Tyche. Deneir: Ascended mortal. Church founded in 25 DR. No idea where he was born. Eldath: Possibly Jhamdathi in origin, very possibly a daughter of Silvanus. Garagos: Probably a fragment of the original god of War that spawned in the War of Light and Darkness between Selūne and Shar. Garagos is likely the Jhaamdathi aspect. I think he was probably separate from Targus or that Targus was a fragment of him or the original War. Garagos seems to have slain or absorbed Targus after the fall of Netheril. Grumbar: ascended earth elemental Istishia: ascended water elemental Jergal: Probably an ascended spellweaver or an interloper from the spellweaver pantheon. His worship may have been prominent in Chultenegar or the Lake of Steam area many thousands of years ago. At some point seems to have taken over the Death portfolio from the prior holder of the office. Llira: Probably Jhaamdathi, possibly one of the daughters of Auppenser and Eldath. Lurue: I think it likely she is an aspect of Mystryl as seen by the fey pantheon. In fact Mystryl maybe a fragment of her. Lurue may have been the original goddess of magic for Realmspace. Milil: very likely Jhaamdathi, probably originally called Melith. Might be a son of Auppenser and Eldath. Nobanion:Interloper. Definitely inspired by Aslan, though maybe not actually a fragment of the Narnian Aslan. Ed Greenwood has said he is also inspired by the coat of arms of the British crown, the lion and the unicorn, the unicorn being Lurue. Savras: Was a Halruaan wizard before ascending to godhood. Talona: Not an interloper. The original goddess of disease spawned by the War of Light and Darkness between Selūne and Shar. Tiamat: Seems to have interloped twice. Both as a draconic deity and also following the Untheric gods from the homeworld of the Mulan. The two aspects would seem to have merged by this point. Ubtao: Brought to Chult by the Tabaxi, who seem to have immigrated from the continent of Katashaka to the south of Maztica. Valkur: Ascended human from Mintarn I believe, part of the Talfiric pantheon originally.
MarkusTay63 07-02-07, 04:15 AM	Ubtao is probably the last survivor of the primordial saurian pantheon, another candidate being Tyranthraxus. Perhaps many of the 'lost gods' date back to this primordial pantheon, before the coming of man. It may have been the original Sarrukh Pantheon, before they became civilized and started worshipping the World Serpent in a bid for greater power. If not the Sarrukh, then maybe some other proto-saurian races that were wiped out as the Sarrukh rose to dominance (the Lacerials in the Malatra may be the sole survivors of these lose dinofolk).
Zevox 07-02-07, 12:48 PM	I thought this was canon. I thought the main body of Lathanderites acknowledged this. Isn't the Risen Son Heresy only considered heresy because they want Amaunator to return? Besides,the gods' link makes so much since if it isn't canon it likely will be soon. Nope, its neither canon nor acknowledged by most of Lathander's church. Only the Risen Sun Heresy holds the belief. Whether its sensible or not (I happen to think it isn't, since the two are so different and have different aspects of the Sun for their portfolios, and it seems implied at times that Lathander is old enough to have perhaps existed at the same time as Aumantor), its presently merely one possibility that may or may not be true, and I don't think that will be changing soon (else the Risen Sun Heresy loses a bit of its mystique either way - either they're dead wrong and we'll know it, or they're right and we know that the larger church of Lathander is wrong). Zevox
GothicDan 07-02-07, 12:56 PM	I still like my idea that Lathander is both Amaunator reborn and not - a fragment of Apollo that interloped, and may have been around at the same time, and was 'corrupted' by the dying spirit of Amaunator, which created an original Lathander that was of the right mindset (more Lawful) to have done the Dawn Cataclysm. But that's because I <3 Apollo and delicious Planescapey crossovers.
Psionycx 07-02-07, 12:57 PM	Given that he's working on the Deliverance (which I'm hoping doesn't end up like the movie), Lathander needs all the worshippers he can get, so it wouldn't surprising if he were willing to poach from a god whose dead anyway. On the other hand, he wasn't one of the gods mentioned in the Arcane Age stuff and it makes a kind of logical sense that Aumunator, brought low by his own lawfulness, might desire a new beginning, and thus become the god of new beginnings. Speaking of renewal, you can add Finder Wyvernspur in as well. Ascended mortal of Cormyrian origin.
Eladrinstar 07-02-07, 02:25 PM	I can see Jergal being a kind of mummified spellweaver. Arcane age mentions the Nether Scrolls being found in a ruins of a city of strange people. Maybe the spellweavers? Wasn't Lurue, in Greenwood's original campaign, basically hold the portfolio of Selune, Mystra, and Mielikki. I think it says that somewhere over at candlekeep.
Spelldancer 07-02-07, 02:41 PM	I had always thought Lathander and Sune were interlopers, though it was never exactly said. In the Age of Netheril, Selune is the goddess of love and beauty. Though Sune then takes that over.
Gray Richardson 07-02-07, 03:01 PM	Yes, Sune was not part of the Netherese pantheon, so she was either born after Netheril, or was perhaps part of the Talfiric pantheon. Lathander was also part of the Talfiric pantheon. So it is possible that he could be her father. I like to think that Sune got her fiery red hair from the morning lord. And it appears that Selune gave some of her portfolio over to Sune and is said to have served Sune for a time. But I take that to mean in her capacity as a mother and teacher. Just my take on it.
GothicDan 07-02-07, 03:06 PM	In Greenwood's world, Lurue was indeed a very, very powerful deity, originally the Weave incarnate before Mystra, and probably more. I imagine Nobanion was more powerful originally, too, since they had similar inspiration.
XHereticX 07-02-07, 03:18 PM	In Greenwood's world, Lurue was indeed a very, very powerful deity, originally the Weave incarnate before Mystra, and probably more. I imagine Nobanion was more powerful originally, too, since they had similar inspiration. Bah. Nobanion is nothing more than a cheap ripoff of Aslan (who was in turn a cheap ripoff of Jesus) Yeah, I have no doubt Lathander is Amaunthor reborn. Next he will probably be reborn as an evil sun god of Dusk. Garagos is just Targus reborn after he was defeated by Tempus. As for Tiamat, wasn't she a fragment of the World Serpent? Plus since when did a unicorn goddess become an aspect of Mystryl?????
Psionycx 07-02-07, 04:00 PM	Well, I think the current Shar business was meant to stave off a trend. At least, I'd noticed one and wondered about it for some time. The first Mystryl was rather wild and primal, Chaotic Neutral, and disinclined to allow rules on magic. After the Netheril debacle someone more inclined towards enforcing the rules was needed so we got Lawful Neutral Mystra. She eventually got herself killed, opening the door for a heroine who was needed to end the Time of Troubles, and so the Neutral Good "Mystra" (Midnight) took the job. That always left me wondering if this was a cosmic cycle and if Faerun was destined to one day have a Neutral Evil goddess of magic. But they opted not to wait and so we have both, a Neutral Good one and a Neutral Evil one. Tiamat is, depending on how you look at it, either a member of the Draconic or Untheric pantheons. She gets around that five-headed minx. Way back in the 1E Manual of the Planes it was also implied that she was also an aspect of Takhisis from Krynn. I also incline towards the view that Lanthadar is a reincarnation of Amaunator. But that doesn't mean he's the same personality.
customdrapery 07-02-07, 05:45 PM	I still lean towards Lathander simply trying to take over some of Amaunator's worshipers. Amaunator is dead, he faded after Netheril fell and eventually died, his body is floating on the Astral Plane. Of course, that doesn't preclude the idea that Lathander may have been around before Netheril as part of the Talfiric Pantheon, then assumed the Dawn Portfolio after Amaunator faded and the Three-faced sun rotated. I'm starting to like GothicDan's idea that Lathander was an interloper Apollo and that he gained Dawn at some point later.
ripvanwormer 07-02-07, 07:44 PM	As for Tiamat, wasn't she a fragment of the World Serpent? Io/Asgorath is a fragment of the World Serpent. Tiamat is a daughter of Io/Asgorath. She probably doesn't have a second parent. If Asgorath has a mate, it's probably Null (Chronepsis). Tiamat is also (presumedly, but not necessarily) the personification of salt water in the Untheric pantheon, so things might be a little more complicated than that. It's possible that the Babylonian (Untheric) goddess Tiamat was not originally the same as the draconic goddess Tiamat, but that Tiamat absorbed the portfolio of the Babylonian personification of salt water after Marduk killed her. The question is: does that myth even exist in Unther, or do they only know Tiamat as a divine draconic creature who Marduk (Bahamut) opposes? Do they think she's the grandmother of Anshar and the great-grandmother of Anu? What are their myths like? Plus since when did a unicorn goddess become an aspect of Mystryl? Gray will explain that to you better than I can, but essentially Lurue was, in Ed Greenwood's original campaign, the personification of Faerun's magic. Gray has interpreted this to mean that she's related to Mystryl in some way. Kossuth: ascended elemental Or perhaps the original fire elemental, perhaps the living spirit of the Elemental Plane of Fire itself. Maybe Kossuth is older than fire elementals, and older than the plane that he rules. He's not necessarily ascended; perhaps he was born a divine being, the primal spirit of all flame. That might apply to all four elemental rulers. Perhaps, at the beginning of time, when the raw potential of the Ethereal Plane was just beginning to become self-aware, the concept of fire awoke as Kossuth, and helped guide the mists to become what would be a major plane of existence.
Psionycx 07-02-07, 11:49 PM	Tiamat seems to have retained her position as the adversary of the gods in the Untheric pantheon, so I would assume that they saw her in terms their mythology. But as she is a deity on multiple worlds, and a member of multiple pantheons, the truth is probably not what Untheric religion believed. She is the quintessential interopler deity, whose origins are completely divorced from Toril whatever they may be are lost in the dim mists of ancient past, whether a descendant of Io or an aspect of Takhisis or something else altogether. Kossuth and the other elemental rulers are a similar case. Kossuth is the "tyrant" ruler of fire elementals that has been referenced in (A)D&D all the way back to 1E. The historical assumption is that he is the ruler of the Plane of Fire, which makes him something different than a god. The elemental rulers have influence on Toril because the Prime is connected to and made up of substance from the elemental planes. As to whether Kossuth is an "ascended" elemental, implying that the rulership of an elemental plane is open to transition, or whether it is eternal is an open question. But the simple fact is he's not really a "god" in the traditional sense, although he has the same kind of power. Another interesting example of deity origin is Angharradh, the Triune Goddess of the moon elves. The simple question of whether or not she even really exists as such is an open one, as she is an example of a particular group combining the faiths of multiple deities (in this case Aerdrie Faenya, Hanali Celanil and Sehanine Moonbow) into a single fusion deity. Moon elves worship her a distinct deity, but other groups worshipping the Seldarine do not, worshipping the three goddesses individually instead? So, does Angharradh really exist outside the beliefs of her worshippers? Is the worship of the moon elves enough to cause the three goddesses to actually merge or would it take a much larger section of worshippers, especially given that the three goddesses are worshipped as individuals across many worlds and planes? Angharradh raises the question of just how much some deities may actually exist or whether they are simply points of view of other existing deities (like the Bedine gods which are really Faerunian gods under other names and identities). Midnight took over Mystra's role with nary a ripple in the church by simply keeping the same name as her predecessor. Cyric briefly maintained the faiths of Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul until he felt comfortably situated in his position. He even briefly sponsored a cult of Ao! The few evil worshippers of Moander that are left lurking around (whom Finder Wyvernspur wants nothing to do with) are quietly sponsored by Lolth. Faith is a funny thing, even in a world with anthropomorphic gods.
sleyvas 07-03-07, 02:33 PM	Yes, the question of the elemental "gods" has long been that. According to 2nd edition it was even pointed out in one of the books that they didn't come down during the avatar crisis, but I want to say a 3rd edition resource does have Kossuth coming down somewhere during it. Personally, I like the idea that they're something different from gods.... just like the demon lords and archon paragons and such are different from gods but can have followers and grant spells. Especially with the elemental lords being so uncaring, maybe they just grant spells as a means to pipe divine power to themselves and gain some presence on the prime material should their rivals begin to get too powerful.
Arbourean 07-03-07, 08:33 PM	I always felt Sune was in fact Aphrodite, with some personality changes and a great deal more divine power? Mielikki is Ehlonna. I still get a chuckle out of the editing error under Mielikki's entry in Faiths and Avatars which is copied verbatim in Faiths and Pantheons
Psionycx 07-03-07, 08:47 PM	Well, the realms did previously have a Greek god hanging around (Tyche), so why not another? In 2E Planescape it was said that Ehlonna and Mielikki were "roomates" so to speak. They used to share a common realm on the Beastlands called the Grove of the Unicorns. It wasn't the only example of cross-pantheon realm sharing either. Waukeen was sharing the Marketplace Eternal with gods from the Birthright, Dragonlance and Greyhawk settings.
Zevox 07-04-07, 02:49 AM	Yeah, I have no doubt Lathander is Amaunthor reborn. Next he will probably be reborn as an evil sun god of Dusk. So you think Lathander will die and be reincarnated as Myrkul? :P Mielikki is Ehlonna. I wouldn't bet on that. I don't know if Mielikki was one of the Deities Ed created originally, but the Realms do pre-date Greyhawk, and it would seem that all of the Deities they took from there when the Realms was made a D&D setting were unchanged interlopers (folks like Tiamat, Corellon, Moradin, etc). (Now that I think of it, it would be interesting to find out what the Elven, Dwarven, and other racial deities were like in Ed's original version of the Realms. A topic for another day though.) Zevox