origin of magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

origin of magic [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
rantingelf
06-21-07, 08:38 PM I'm a bit confused over the origin of magic, did Mystryl create it? I find it unlikely, all i really have to go on is Wikipedia.

It states that both divine and arcane magic are drawn from the weave but that wouldn't make sense because then Mystra would have control over all deities plus whenever mystra gets captured or killed(which seems to happen alot) then wouldn't clerics lose their powers as well in that case? so the entry is obviously wrong for that part.

I see two sources of magic, the weave, the shadow weave and possibly elven magic. did Mystryl create the weave out of nothing or is there a raw source of magic that exists, the name weave implys that, and do deities draw their divine power from this source and act as a filter much like the weave?

also would it be possible for another god to create another weave because i'm unaware of how Shar went about creating the shadow weave.
Meldread
06-21-07, 08:58 PM I'm a bit confused over the origin of magic, did Mystryl create it?
No, Mystryl did not create the Weave. It was an accidental creation during the conflict between Shar and Selune. Selune tore off a piece of herself and hurled it at Shar, ripping part of her off and the two combined and coalesced into Mystryl who was the embodiment of magic.

However, the Weave itself is NOT magic, but rather more like a conduit from which one can access magic. Similar to how an operating system like Windows communicates with all of your hardware.

Magic itself is Raw Magic, which is difficult if not impossible for mortals (and most likely divine beings as well) to access and use. If it can even be refined for use it is incredibly dangerous and would likely kill its wielder. Shar and Selune may have had the ability to refine and use Raw Magic in the beginning.

That may have been how Shar created the Shadow Weave.

It states that both divine and arcane magic are drawn from the weave but that wouldn't make sense because then Mystra would have control over all deities plus whenever mystra gets captured or killed(which seems to happen alot) then wouldn't clerics lose their powers as well in that case?
That is correct. All Magic that does not come from the Shadow Weave, Psionics or possibly some other yet unknown force is drawn through the Weave. (Warlocks may be another source that is not directly connected to the Weave though this is debatable.) This includes all divine spells. Mystra has the ability to cut any deity off from their followers at any time... though there would be repercussions for doing such.

do deities draw their divine power from this source and act as a filter much like the weave?
No, at the moment all deities except Shar's faithful cast their magic through the Weave. Shar's Clerics knowingly or unknowingly are casting spells through the Shadow Weave most likely (because Shar is using the Shadow Weave).

also would it be possible for another god to create another weave because i'm unaware of how Shar went about creating the shadow weave.
It may be possible but unlikely. No one knows how exactly Shar went about creating the Shadow Weave for certain.
Zsych
06-23-07, 04:22 AM As part of one of my half-developed theories, I suggest that Selune took her own source of magic(which she used to create things, using RAW magic), and sought to use it all to destroy a similar part of Shar, rendering them both mostly powerless, and stopping the destruction their war was causing.

Similar things that they were, the broken parts of Shar and Selune ended up merging(since they also had some divine essence), and combined into a more general filter for RAW magic, which now, anyone who could figure out how, could use(what would constitute a spell wouldn't exactly be obvious to start with, so beings would initially realize that certain actions created effects by accident).

Mystryl: Oh they're tickling me... [creates fireball in response]
Zevox
06-23-07, 10:35 AM I'm a bit confused over the origin of magic, did Mystryl create it?
In a certain sense, yes and no. Mystryl/Mystra physically is the Weave, so when she was created, so too was the Weave.

It states that both divine and arcane magic are drawn from the weave but that wouldn't make sense because then Mystra would have control over all deities plus whenever mystra gets captured or killed(which seems to happen alot) then wouldn't clerics lose their powers as well in that case? so the entry is obviously wrong for that part.
No, thats not wrong, though one part of your extrapolation from it is. Yes, both divine and arcane magic are powered by the Weave on Toril (unless one accesses the Shadow Weave instead). However, since the Weave only exists on the Prime and in Dweomerheart, this means nothing to Deities, whose inherent magical powers are not dependent on it. And yes, when the Weave ceased to exist briefly between Mystryl's death and Mystra's reincarnation, all magic, arcane and divine, wizardly and priestly alike, failed.

I see two sources of magic, the weave, the shadow weave and possibly elven magic.
Elven magic uses the Weave too, just like any other race's magic.

did Mystryl create the weave out of nothing or is there a raw source of magic that exists
The former is more correct, though as I said, it can't quite be said that she created it, since she and it are one and the same.

and do deities draw their divine power from this source and act as a filter much like the weave?
Deities don't draw their divine power from anywhere - they simply have it inherently. One of the perks of being divine, you know?

also would it be possible for another god to create another weave because i'm unaware of how Shar went about creating the shadow weave.
Everyone is unaware of where the Shadow Weave came from. Shar may have created it, or she may not have and instead simply found and claimed it (it is said to exist in the empty spaces between the "threads" of the Weave, so perhaps it was simply always there, and she merely found it due to her mastery of secrets), or perhaps she even imported it from another world. There are multiple conflicting stories of where it came from or even when it came to Toril. Generally speaking though, its highly unlikely that another Weave could be created, as its a very unique thing.

Zevox
Boda
06-23-07, 06:06 PM Since only shar, selune, chauntea were present at the birth of mystril, likely only they may have particular knowledge on how to make one.
Note that while the weave was created with shards of both selune and shar, mystril took selune side, this would suggest that maybe selune contribution was bigger that of shar, so she could make the shadow weave because she didnt lost so much as selune did.

If the weave is the sole power company, mystra it's current CEO, each god has it's own personel power generator, and now there's new competitor in the market(shadow weave), then raw magic is oil reserves.And Ao is the Saudi Sheik!
Lord Karsus
06-23-07, 08:19 PM -Remember, that's all if you believe that particular creation myth.
Dr_Tough
06-23-07, 11:17 PM Well, they way I always saw it was that only arcane magic actually came from the weave. Divine magic was essentially the user "borrowing" a bit a deity's inate power. Finally, Psionics was magic that the user drew from within themselves.
Lord Karsus
06-25-07, 09:05 AM Well, they way I always saw it was that only arcane magic actually came from the weave. Divine magic was essentially the user "borrowing" a bit a deity's inate power. Finally, Psionics was magic that the user drew from within themselves.

-The latter two utilize the Weave as well.
XHereticX
06-25-07, 09:08 AM All magic uses the weave except shadow weave magic.;)
Dr_Tough
06-25-07, 12:20 PM Well, yes, in D&D divine magic uses the weave. However, then you end up with the problem of a god controlling cleric and wizard magic which someone pointed out earlier. It's simply easier to imagine divine magic as coming directly from a deity.
XHereticX
06-25-07, 12:25 PM Well, yes, in D&D divine magic uses the weave. However, then you end up with the problem of a god controlling cleric and wizard magic which someone pointed out earlier. It's simply easier to imagine divine magic as coming directly from a deity.

The god is just the source of divine magic, while the weave is the conduit.

Think about it this way, a guy makes a call to you, you answer and you chat. The source of the call is the guy, but the call has to go through the phone line to reach you. The guy is like the god and the phone line is like the weave.
Zevox
06-25-07, 12:44 PM -The latter two utilize the Weave as well.
Um, Psionics don't last I checked. It uses the power of the individual's mind. Remember the somewhat misleading "personal mini-weave" explanation someone gave for them a while back? And how psionics was unaffected by the magical chaos in the Weave during the Time of Troubles, but only afterward had the mental pathways required to access it shift?

Besides, if they used the Weave, one would expect the discipline would be less rare, since it wouldn't be dependent on an individual having mental psychic power themselves, just on them learning to tap the weave with their mind.

Well, yes, in D&D divine magic uses the weave. However, then you end up with the problem of a god controlling cleric and wizard magic which someone pointed out earlier. It's simply easier to imagine divine magic as coming directly from a deity.
Not even Mystra can control what magic individual mortals use. She can cut them off from the Weave to prevent them from using magic at all, but even being the Weave doesn't give her control over every individuals' magic.

As divine magic goes in the Realms, the God grants the Cleric the knowledge of how to cast it, and the Weave (or Shadow Weave) provides the actual magic to power the spell. All Mystra can do is allow or disallow the Priests from using the Weave (and she doesn't disallow it unless its a very extreme case), or of course technically she could do anything another wizard could if a situation that demanded it arose, but she could do that even if divine magic didn't use the Weave.

Zevox
Drew1369r
06-25-07, 11:30 PM The dieties CAN be cut off from the weave IF walking on Toril.
Zsych
06-26-07, 08:38 PM One might think that the spells that dieties have the ability to grant are normal divine spells and would work fine in a world with normal magic.

Since Toril doesn't have normal magic by itself(possessing some strange unstable magic instead), any magic that would seek to function under normal magic laws, must use the adapter/filter/interpreter that is the Weave.

Most gods, being used to normal magic, in their own planes and on other worlds, likely lack the knowledge, or have never bothered to research the use of the raw/actual magic that is native to Toril.
BrennonGoldeye
06-26-07, 09:42 PM Um, Psionics don't last I checked. It uses the power of the individual's mind. Remember the somewhat misleading "personal mini-weave" explanation someone gave for them a while back? And how psionics was unaffected by the magical chaos in the Weave during the Time of Troubles, but only afterward had the mental pathways required to access it shift?

Mmmhmm, thats the info I know of. We are guarded by the Lady. Her control of the Weave has nothing to do with Psionics. Her present stewardship of Psionics in the Realms is a seperate issue in and of itself. :)
Dr_Tough
06-26-07, 09:56 PM Um, Psionics don't last I checked. It uses the power of the individual's mind. Remember the somewhat misleading "personal mini-weave" explanation someone gave for them a while back? And how psionics was unaffected by the magical chaos in the Weave during the Time of Troubles, but only afterward had the mental pathways required to access it shift?

Zevox

Yeah, but psionics is retarded when separated from magic because one ends up with the whole 2e train wreck.
Zsych
06-26-07, 10:01 PM Its annoying how without Auppensor, its possible that even psionics would stop working in the realms.

Ao, shouldn't've picked such cheap dimensional real-estate to create his world in.
Zevox
06-27-07, 02:36 AM Yeah, but psionics is retarded when separated from magic because one ends up with the whole 2e train wreck.
Psionics not being drawn from the Weave doesn't mean theres no Psionics-Magic transparency, just that they don't get their power from the same source. Which is only logical, really, since they're two totally different disciplines.

Its annoying how without Auppensor, its possible that even psionics would stop working in the realms.
Thats just how things work with the Faerūnian deities. The same way nobody could die when there was briefly no God in the Faerūnian pantheon with the Death portfolio (during the time between Cyric losing it and Kelemvor picking it up). The same way the Weave ceased to exist between the death of Mystryl and her reincarnation as Mystra. Kill a deity in the native pantheon with an important, non-abstract portfolio, and you need to replace him fast, or that portfolio will cease to exist on Toril. Its one reason why the Gods are so important in the Realms.

Zevox
Zsych
06-27-07, 02:56 AM As I said, Ao picked the cheapest most worthless piece of dimensional real-estate imaginable. Nothing works right unless you put special effort into it.

Its a miracle there's no god of birth without which new life can't come in(or would Chauntea have control over something like that? oh well, without a world to stand on, it wouldn't matter if people could have kids or not)
Zevox
06-27-07, 02:47 PM *shrugs* Personally, I love that part of the setting. Its a wonderful way to give the Gods relevance to the world, and to make the native Deities more important to it than any others that just happen to move in. An excellent piece of flavor for the world, IMO.

Zevox
Soltares
06-27-07, 03:01 PM The gods of the Realms seem to function like the Avatars from Piers Anthony's books. Death can indeed die, but there will always be *a* Death, and the job won't be 'open' for any appreciable length of time.

I like the idea of the gods being relevant to the world, unlike, say, the Greyhawk gods, where Boccob or Wee Jas, or both, could keel over dead and magic continue functioning normally, *but* I hate the idea that these primal fundemental forces of nature, these building blocks of reality itself, keep falling over dead...

*If* the gods are so important, they shouldn't be quite so easily bumped off and replaced. If anything, the Greyhawk gods, who are associated with forces, but not necessarily important to the functioning of the universe, should be the ones kacking off every few years in novels. The Realms gods, who are integral to the structure and workings of the world, should be ancient and immortal. They may change over time, to adjust to new situations relevant to their portfolio (the god of disease growing more powerful during a decade of rampant plague, or the goddess of winter growing weaker during a time of warming and short winters), but shouldn't just be rotated in and out like bullets in a gun. It cheapens the whole concept, for me, to make them so important, and yet more 'mortal' than the mortal NPCs running around.

It should be a *huge* deal if a diety dies (or is thought to have died)! It shouldn't be some sort of casual checklist event, where, in the last 20 Realms-years, a dozen or so ageless beings of immeasurable power, intimately tied to primal forces that shape and move the world, keeled over and mostly got replaced.
GothicDan
06-27-07, 10:22 PM As I said, Ao picked the cheapest most worthless piece of dimensional real-estate imaginable. Nothing works right unless you put special effort into it.

Its a miracle there's no god of birth without which new life can't come in(or would Chauntea have control over something like that? oh well, without a world to stand on, it wouldn't matter if people could have kids or not)

The idea of 'portfolios' functioning without any divine intellect behind them is almost entirely foreign to classical fantasy and mythology. What you want is a world that's developed a physical reality and explanation wholly disjoined with the divine, which is alien to typical fantasy and incredibly jarring.

I'm not saying that it's impossible to work, just incredibly out of place in your typical D&D setting.
BrennonGoldeye
06-27-07, 10:26 PM As I said, Ao picked the cheapest most worthless piece of dimensional real-estate imaginable. Nothing works right unless you put special effort into it.

Its a miracle there's no god of birth without which new life can't come in(or would Chauntea have control over something like that? oh well, without a world to stand on, it wouldn't matter if people could have kids or not)

Making the Gods just as necessary as the worshipers creates a big ole cycle. Stirs things up. Magic(not the Weave) in Fearun isn't just an add-on to a funny shaped Terra. It has been an integral part of the CS from the start. Without Magic(not the Weave) there wouldn't even be any Gods. Remove a Nexus of magical power responsible for the conversion of a universal constant into the rest of the multiverse, reap the consequences, including temporary suspension of said constant. ;)

*shrugs* Personally, I love that part of the setting. Its a wonderful way to give the Gods relevance to the world, and to make the native Deities more important to it than any others that just happen to move in. An excellent piece of flavor for the world, IMO.

Zevox

:clap:
captaincarot
06-28-07, 12:20 PM if mystra can't cut off another god from the weave, how come Ao gave her a good stern talking to for cutting cyric off.
Lord Karsus
06-28-07, 06:45 PM if mystra can't cut off another god from the weave, how come Ao gave her a good stern talking to for cutting cyric off.

-Because those novels weren't...the best. Technically, she shouldn't have been able to do that, since said deities do not inhabit Realmspace's Prime. They inhabit other Planes, where the Weave does not extend to.
Zsych
06-29-07, 06:15 AM She can do it fine, while they are on Toril, drawing on her own power to do their work.
I doubt Ao would bother her much unless she was doing it more than a couple of times a century.

--

@GD: Its not that I mind. I just find it kinda funny.
Having a god managing death is one thing, but having death stop working despite people's bodies being destroyed, when the guy is down, is something else.
In D&D, I expect people's souls to head straight to the planes they are meant for.

Like I've said before... if Shar's death erased people's ability to be forgetful, that would be just ridiculous.

Shar being god to sad people(I think sadness is in her portfolio), or causing sadness to get worshippers and promote her way though, I would understand.

An ultimate mage god, worshipped(made stronger) by, and helping mages, I would like fine(as opposed to controller of magic, and not a particularly worthwhile mage herself, god of magic... IMO her personality did not represent the greatest of what a mage would aspire to be)

-

@Brennon: Who says that gods need magic to survive? They could exist due to completely normal laws of physics(as exist in their own world).
... not that the above statement uses a very well defined meaning of the word 'magic' :)

.. anyway, my statement about Ao having bought cheap dimensional real-estate was meant to be funny.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
rantingelf 06-21-07, 08:38 PM	I'm a bit confused over the origin of magic, did Mystryl create it? I find it unlikely, all i really have to go on is Wikipedia. It states that both divine and arcane magic are drawn from the weave but that wouldn't make sense because then Mystra would have control over all deities plus whenever mystra gets captured or killed(which seems to happen alot) then wouldn't clerics lose their powers as well in that case? so the entry is obviously wrong for that part. I see two sources of magic, the weave, the shadow weave and possibly elven magic. did Mystryl create the weave out of nothing or is there a raw source of magic that exists, the name weave implys that, and do deities draw their divine power from this source and act as a filter much like the weave? also would it be possible for another god to create another weave because i'm unaware of how Shar went about creating the shadow weave.
Meldread 06-21-07, 08:58 PM	I'm a bit confused over the origin of magic, did Mystryl create it? No, Mystryl did not create the Weave. It was an accidental creation during the conflict between Shar and Selune. Selune tore off a piece of herself and hurled it at Shar, ripping part of her off and the two combined and coalesced into Mystryl who was the embodiment of magic. However, the Weave itself is NOT magic, but rather more like a conduit from which one can access magic. Similar to how an operating system like Windows communicates with all of your hardware. Magic itself is Raw Magic, which is difficult if not impossible for mortals (and most likely divine beings as well) to access and use. If it can even be refined for use it is incredibly dangerous and would likely kill its wielder. Shar and Selune may have had the ability to refine and use Raw Magic in the beginning. That may have been how Shar created the Shadow Weave. It states that both divine and arcane magic are drawn from the weave but that wouldn't make sense because then Mystra would have control over all deities plus whenever mystra gets captured or killed(which seems to happen alot) then wouldn't clerics lose their powers as well in that case? That is correct. All Magic that does not come from the Shadow Weave, Psionics or possibly some other yet unknown force is drawn through the Weave. (Warlocks may be another source that is not directly connected to the Weave though this is debatable.) This includes all divine spells. Mystra has the ability to cut any deity off from their followers at any time... though there would be repercussions for doing such. do deities draw their divine power from this source and act as a filter much like the weave? No, at the moment all deities except Shar's faithful cast their magic through the Weave. Shar's Clerics knowingly or unknowingly are casting spells through the Shadow Weave most likely (because Shar is using the Shadow Weave). also would it be possible for another god to create another weave because i'm unaware of how Shar went about creating the shadow weave. It may be possible but unlikely. No one knows how exactly Shar went about creating the Shadow Weave for certain.
Zsych 06-23-07, 04:22 AM	As part of one of my half-developed theories, I suggest that Selune took her own source of magic(which she used to create things, using RAW magic), and sought to use it all to destroy a similar part of Shar, rendering them both mostly powerless, and stopping the destruction their war was causing. Similar things that they were, the broken parts of Shar and Selune ended up merging(since they also had some divine essence), and combined into a more general filter for RAW magic, which now, anyone who could figure out how, could use(what would constitute a spell wouldn't exactly be obvious to start with, so beings would initially realize that certain actions created effects by accident). Mystryl: Oh they're tickling me... [creates fireball in response]
Zevox 06-23-07, 10:35 AM	I'm a bit confused over the origin of magic, did Mystryl create it? In a certain sense, yes and no. Mystryl/Mystra physically is the Weave, so when she was created, so too was the Weave. It states that both divine and arcane magic are drawn from the weave but that wouldn't make sense because then Mystra would have control over all deities plus whenever mystra gets captured or killed(which seems to happen alot) then wouldn't clerics lose their powers as well in that case? so the entry is obviously wrong for that part. No, thats not wrong, though one part of your extrapolation from it is. Yes, both divine and arcane magic are powered by the Weave on Toril (unless one accesses the Shadow Weave instead). However, since the Weave only exists on the Prime and in Dweomerheart, this means nothing to Deities, whose inherent magical powers are not dependent on it. And yes, when the Weave ceased to exist briefly between Mystryl's death and Mystra's reincarnation, all magic, arcane and divine, wizardly and priestly alike, failed. I see two sources of magic, the weave, the shadow weave and possibly elven magic. Elven magic uses the Weave too, just like any other race's magic. did Mystryl create the weave out of nothing or is there a raw source of magic that exists The former is more correct, though as I said, it can't quite be said that she created it, since she and it are one and the same. and do deities draw their divine power from this source and act as a filter much like the weave? Deities don't draw their divine power from anywhere - they simply have it inherently. One of the perks of being divine, you know? also would it be possible for another god to create another weave because i'm unaware of how Shar went about creating the shadow weave. Everyone is unaware of where the Shadow Weave came from. Shar may have created it, or she may not have and instead simply found and claimed it (it is said to exist in the empty spaces between the "threads" of the Weave, so perhaps it was simply always there, and she merely found it due to her mastery of secrets), or perhaps she even imported it from another world. There are multiple conflicting stories of where it came from or even when it came to Toril. Generally speaking though, its highly unlikely that another Weave could be created, as its a very unique thing. Zevox
Boda 06-23-07, 06:06 PM	Since only shar, selune, chauntea were present at the birth of mystril, likely only they may have particular knowledge on how to make one. Note that while the weave was created with shards of both selune and shar, mystril took selune side, this would suggest that maybe selune contribution was bigger that of shar, so she could make the shadow weave because she didnt lost so much as selune did. If the weave is the sole power company, mystra it's current CEO, each god has it's own personel power generator, and now there's new competitor in the market(shadow weave), then raw magic is oil reserves.And Ao is the Saudi Sheik!
Lord Karsus 06-23-07, 08:19 PM	-Remember, that's all if you believe that particular creation myth.
Dr_Tough 06-23-07, 11:17 PM	Well, they way I always saw it was that only arcane magic actually came from the weave. Divine magic was essentially the user "borrowing" a bit a deity's inate power. Finally, Psionics was magic that the user drew from within themselves.
Lord Karsus 06-25-07, 09:05 AM	Well, they way I always saw it was that only arcane magic actually came from the weave. Divine magic was essentially the user "borrowing" a bit a deity's inate power. Finally, Psionics was magic that the user drew from within themselves. -The latter two utilize the Weave as well.
XHereticX 06-25-07, 09:08 AM	All magic uses the weave except shadow weave magic.;)
Dr_Tough 06-25-07, 12:20 PM	Well, yes, in D&D divine magic uses the weave. However, then you end up with the problem of a god controlling cleric and wizard magic which someone pointed out earlier. It's simply easier to imagine divine magic as coming directly from a deity.
XHereticX 06-25-07, 12:25 PM	Well, yes, in D&D divine magic uses the weave. However, then you end up with the problem of a god controlling cleric and wizard magic which someone pointed out earlier. It's simply easier to imagine divine magic as coming directly from a deity. The god is just the source of divine magic, while the weave is the conduit. Think about it this way, a guy makes a call to you, you answer and you chat. The source of the call is the guy, but the call has to go through the phone line to reach you. The guy is like the god and the phone line is like the weave.
Zevox 06-25-07, 12:44 PM	-The latter two utilize the Weave as well. Um, Psionics don't last I checked. It uses the power of the individual's mind. Remember the somewhat misleading "personal mini-weave" explanation someone gave for them a while back? And how psionics was unaffected by the magical chaos in the Weave during the Time of Troubles, but only afterward had the mental pathways required to access it shift? Besides, if they used the Weave, one would expect the discipline would be less rare, since it wouldn't be dependent on an individual having mental psychic power themselves, just on them learning to tap the weave with their mind. Well, yes, in D&D divine magic uses the weave. However, then you end up with the problem of a god controlling cleric and wizard magic which someone pointed out earlier. It's simply easier to imagine divine magic as coming directly from a deity. Not even Mystra can control what magic individual mortals use. She can cut them off from the Weave to prevent them from using magic at all, but even being the Weave doesn't give her control over every individuals' magic. As divine magic goes in the Realms, the God grants the Cleric the knowledge of how to cast it, and the Weave (or Shadow Weave) provides the actual magic to power the spell. All Mystra can do is allow or disallow the Priests from using the Weave (and she doesn't disallow it unless its a very extreme case), or of course technically she could do anything another wizard could if a situation that demanded it arose, but she could do that even if divine magic didn't use the Weave. Zevox
Drew1369r 06-25-07, 11:30 PM	The dieties CAN be cut off from the weave IF walking on Toril.
Zsych 06-26-07, 08:38 PM	One might think that the spells that dieties have the ability to grant are normal divine spells and would work fine in a world with normal magic. Since Toril doesn't have normal magic by itself(possessing some strange unstable magic instead), any magic that would seek to function under normal magic laws, must use the adapter/filter/interpreter that is the Weave. Most gods, being used to normal magic, in their own planes and on other worlds, likely lack the knowledge, or have never bothered to research the use of the raw/actual magic that is native to Toril.
BrennonGoldeye 06-26-07, 09:42 PM	Um, Psionics don't last I checked. It uses the power of the individual's mind. Remember the somewhat misleading "personal mini-weave" explanation someone gave for them a while back? And how psionics was unaffected by the magical chaos in the Weave during the Time of Troubles, but only afterward had the mental pathways required to access it shift? Mmmhmm, thats the info I know of. We are guarded by the Lady. Her control of the Weave has nothing to do with Psionics. Her present stewardship of Psionics in the Realms is a seperate issue in and of itself. :)
Dr_Tough 06-26-07, 09:56 PM	Um, Psionics don't last I checked. It uses the power of the individual's mind. Remember the somewhat misleading "personal mini-weave" explanation someone gave for them a while back? And how psionics was unaffected by the magical chaos in the Weave during the Time of Troubles, but only afterward had the mental pathways required to access it shift? Zevox Yeah, but psionics is retarded when separated from magic because one ends up with the whole 2e train wreck.
Zsych 06-26-07, 10:01 PM	Its annoying how without Auppensor, its possible that even psionics would stop working in the realms. Ao, shouldn't've picked such cheap dimensional real-estate to create his world in.
Zevox 06-27-07, 02:36 AM	Yeah, but psionics is retarded when separated from magic because one ends up with the whole 2e train wreck. Psionics not being drawn from the Weave doesn't mean theres no Psionics-Magic transparency, just that they don't get their power from the same source. Which is only logical, really, since they're two totally different disciplines. Its annoying how without Auppensor, its possible that even psionics would stop working in the realms. Thats just how things work with the Faerūnian deities. The same way nobody could die when there was briefly no God in the Faerūnian pantheon with the Death portfolio (during the time between Cyric losing it and Kelemvor picking it up). The same way the Weave ceased to exist between the death of Mystryl and her reincarnation as Mystra. Kill a deity in the native pantheon with an important, non-abstract portfolio, and you need to replace him fast, or that portfolio will cease to exist on Toril. Its one reason why the Gods are so important in the Realms. Zevox
Zsych 06-27-07, 02:56 AM	As I said, Ao picked the cheapest most worthless piece of dimensional real-estate imaginable. Nothing works right unless you put special effort into it. Its a miracle there's no god of birth without which new life can't come in(or would Chauntea have control over something like that? oh well, without a world to stand on, it wouldn't matter if people could have kids or not)
Zevox 06-27-07, 02:47 PM	shrugs Personally, I love that part of the setting. Its a wonderful way to give the Gods relevance to the world, and to make the native Deities more important to it than any others that just happen to move in. An excellent piece of flavor for the world, IMO. Zevox
Soltares 06-27-07, 03:01 PM	The gods of the Realms seem to function like the Avatars from Piers Anthony's books. Death can indeed die, but there will always be a Death, and the job won't be 'open' for any appreciable length of time. I like the idea of the gods being relevant to the world, unlike, say, the Greyhawk gods, where Boccob or Wee Jas, or both, could keel over dead and magic continue functioning normally, but I hate the idea that these primal fundemental forces of nature, these building blocks of reality itself, keep falling over dead... If the gods are so important, they shouldn't be quite so easily bumped off and replaced. If anything, the Greyhawk gods, who are associated with forces, but not necessarily important to the functioning of the universe, should be the ones kacking off every few years in novels. The Realms gods, who are integral to the structure and workings of the world, should be ancient and immortal. They may change over time, to adjust to new situations relevant to their portfolio (the god of disease growing more powerful during a decade of rampant plague, or the goddess of winter growing weaker during a time of warming and short winters), but shouldn't just be rotated in and out like bullets in a gun. It cheapens the whole concept, for me, to make them so important, and yet more 'mortal' than the mortal NPCs running around. It should be a huge deal if a diety dies (or is thought to have died)! It shouldn't be some sort of casual checklist event, where, in the last 20 Realms-years, a dozen or so ageless beings of immeasurable power, intimately tied to primal forces that shape and move the world, keeled over and mostly got replaced.
GothicDan 06-27-07, 10:22 PM	As I said, Ao picked the cheapest most worthless piece of dimensional real-estate imaginable. Nothing works right unless you put special effort into it. Its a miracle there's no god of birth without which new life can't come in(or would Chauntea have control over something like that? oh well, without a world to stand on, it wouldn't matter if people could have kids or not) The idea of 'portfolios' functioning without any divine intellect behind them is almost entirely foreign to classical fantasy and mythology. What you want is a world that's developed a physical reality and explanation wholly disjoined with the divine, which is alien to typical fantasy and incredibly jarring. I'm not saying that it's impossible to work, just incredibly out of place in your typical D&D setting.
BrennonGoldeye 06-27-07, 10:26 PM	As I said, Ao picked the cheapest most worthless piece of dimensional real-estate imaginable. Nothing works right unless you put special effort into it. Its a miracle there's no god of birth without which new life can't come in(or would Chauntea have control over something like that? oh well, without a world to stand on, it wouldn't matter if people could have kids or not) Making the Gods just as necessary as the worshipers creates a big ole cycle. Stirs things up. Magic(not the Weave) in Fearun isn't just an add-on to a funny shaped Terra. It has been an integral part of the CS from the start. Without Magic(not the Weave) there wouldn't even be any Gods. Remove a Nexus of magical power responsible for the conversion of a universal constant into the rest of the multiverse, reap the consequences, including temporary suspension of said constant. ;) shrugs Personally, I love that part of the setting. Its a wonderful way to give the Gods relevance to the world, and to make the native Deities more important to it than any others that just happen to move in. An excellent piece of flavor for the world, IMO. Zevox :clap:
captaincarot 06-28-07, 12:20 PM	if mystra can't cut off another god from the weave, how come Ao gave her a good stern talking to for cutting cyric off.
Lord Karsus 06-28-07, 06:45 PM	if mystra can't cut off another god from the weave, how come Ao gave her a good stern talking to for cutting cyric off. -Because those novels weren't...the best. Technically, she shouldn't have been able to do that, since said deities do not inhabit Realmspace's Prime. They inhabit other Planes, where the Weave does not extend to.
Zsych 06-29-07, 06:15 AM	She can do it fine, while they are on Toril, drawing on her own power to do their work. I doubt Ao would bother her much unless she was doing it more than a couple of times a century. -- @GD: Its not that I mind. I just find it kinda funny. Having a god managing death is one thing, but having death stop working despite people's bodies being destroyed, when the guy is down, is something else. In D&D, I expect people's souls to head straight to the planes they are meant for. Like I've said before... if Shar's death erased people's ability to be forgetful, that would be just ridiculous. Shar being god to sad people(I think sadness is in her portfolio), or causing sadness to get worshippers and promote her way though, I would understand. An ultimate mage god, worshipped(made stronger) by, and helping mages, I would like fine(as opposed to controller of magic, and not a particularly worthwhile mage herself, god of magic... IMO her personality did not represent the greatest of what a mage would aspire to be) - @Brennon: Who says that gods need magic to survive? They could exist due to completely normal laws of physics(as exist in their own world). ... not that the above statement uses a very well defined meaning of the word 'magic' :) .. anyway, my statement about Ao having bought cheap dimensional real-estate was meant to be funny.