Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Todesherr 09-02-07, 05:04 AM	Personally I don't like him (except for the fact that he grants the Sun domain; useful against undead). He is a narcissist, a meglomaniac and excessive 'do gooder'; he would dow well to learn from a truly good and benevolent god, Torm. However I have long wondered, where does he come from? What culture did he arise in? He is not Amauntor, that we know but where in the 9 hells DID he come from???:eek:
Andyr 09-02-07, 06:55 AM	One theory I like (which I've seen GothicDan mention before, but don't know whether it is his) is what Lathander is the Realms aspect of Apollo, who arrived chasing Tyche (who had entered the Realms). That would fit with Lathander's previous romance with Tyche, before she became Tymora and Besheba. I also like the idea that he is a reincarnation of Amaunator, though. Perhaps Amaunator's fading was what allowed Apollo into the Realms and assume part of his mantle.
MarkusTay63 09-02-07, 11:07 AM	Unfortunely, the Greek Gods were banned from following Tyche into Realmspace, as per one of the Planescape sources. Still trying to figure out what happened to Poseidon in the bloodstone lands, though. :rolleyes: More likely Lathander was a Vedic God (which ARE active in southern Kara-Tur), because they have so many sun gods (each for a different aspect of the sun, much like our Faerūnian Pantheon does). I'd peg him as Ushas, godess of the Dawn, or Vishnu, god of mercy and Light.
The Ubbergeek 09-02-07, 01:14 PM	The problem is, OP... He IS good and caring, very much so. To say otherwise would be mean. The Realms needed that kind of god, really; one that don't say that evil is just a part of balance and let it harm the people. One that is proactive in his fight against Darkness. He is just very much what he is; youthfull, perhaps too much proactive and naive. And that can create problem. He just need to tag around an older god as mentor. :P Anotehr possible theory; is he the famous Mithra, the god those followers spiritually competitioned with YHVH's in the late Roman empire?
Gray Richardson 09-02-07, 05:53 PM	Before the Dawn Cataclysm, there was not a single unified human pantheon in Faerūn as we see today. Rather, there were multiple regional human pantheons. The four biggest pantheons were the Netherese pantheon (Anauroch), the Jhaamdathan pantheon (Vilhon Reach, Chondath, and scattered settlements around the Sea of Fallen Stars), the Coramshite pantheon (Calimshan) and the Talifiric pantheon (Western Heartlands, Sword Coast & parts North). In addition to the big 4, there was the Rus pantheon, the Yuir pantheon, and other small pantheons and individual gods such as Gond and Ubtao worshiped here and there around Faerūn. Amaunator was the Netherese god of the sun. We are told in Faiths & Avatars that he died of neglect about a thousand years after the fall of Netheril (around the 600's DR). But we are told in one of the Elminster books (I think it was Making of a Mage) that Lathander was worshiped in Athalantar around the 2nd century DR. That is smack dab in the middle of the region populated by the Talfiric peoples. This clue is a good indication that Lathander was probably the sun god of the Talfiric pantheon. It is possible that Lathander was the Talfiric aspect or fragment of Amaunator. Or it is possible that they both were fragments of some previous sun god. Note that Lathander doesn't actually have the sun portfolio, but rather has the dawn portfolio. Eric Boyd has suggested that the sun gods of Faerūn wax and wane in cycles of threes, with aspects of the Dawn, Day (or Highsun), and Dusk alternating in power once an age. If Lathander is the Dawn and Amaunator is the Day aspect, it is theorized that the third aspect is whoever holds the dusk portfolio, which in the Netherese era was Jergal, but after the fall of Netheril was passed on to Myrkul. Note that Myrkul died during the Time of Troubles, so Lathander has had a period where he has been ascendant, or at his zenith if you will. There are some stirrings in the lore that suggest that Lathander may be about to enter a period where he starts to diminish, and a new Highsun aspect starts to arise in the Realms. Some people believe that Lathander may just gradually turn into Amaunator, or that Amaunator may be resurrected. Although it could be that, as Mulhorand culture begins to interact more with the greater Faerūnian culture, their pantheon will merge with the greater Faerūnian pantheon, and when that happens, the Mulhorandi sun god Horus-Re may step into the Highsun aspect of the sun god of Faerūn that Amaunator used to occupy. I halfway think he might adopt the Amaunator name as an alias, although there are heresies within the Lathander church that worship Lathander under the Amaunator name (or vice versa).
GothicDan 09-02-07, 06:02 PM	The Greek gods being banned could have been what ended up in Apollo "fracturing," and latching onto the remnants of Amaunator, being reborn as a (initially more LG, explaining the Sun Tyrant's Lawfulness) Lathander without the true memories of Apollo, but with echoes of what he once was influencing who he is. Apollo was also the god of poetic justice/irony, and doesn't the whole Dawn Cataclysm thing just scream that? Also: Lathander is by far one of my favorite gods.
Todesherr 09-02-07, 07:06 PM	The problem is, OP... He IS good and caring, very much so. To say otherwise would be mean. The Realms needed that kind of god, really; one that don't say that evil is just a part of balance and let it harm the people. One that is proactive in his fight against Darkness. He is just very much what he is; youthfull, perhaps too much proactive and naive. And that can create problem. He just need to tag around an older god as mentor. :P Anotehr possible theory; is he the famous Mithra, the god those followers spiritually competitioned with YHVH's in the late Roman empire? Doesn't hold a candle to the True god...
The Ubbergeek 09-02-07, 07:23 PM	Doesn't hold a candle to the True god... What is this heresy, my good lord? :P (Remember - this society is polytheist, and AO is 'beyond good and evil', to quote a certain german)
Todesherr 09-02-07, 07:34 PM	What is this heresy, my good lord? :P (Remember - this society is polytheist, and AO is 'beyond good and evil', to quote a certain german) Meh, Lathander est le plus grand egoiste des dieux, mais Torm montre tous les mortels son humilite ainsi que les dieux. Ao a rien a faire avec le comportement de Lathander...
GothicDan 09-02-07, 08:09 PM	Egoism is the very essence of a noble soul. :) I totally thought that was Latin at first, since I was reading it and understanding a lot of it.
Todesherr 09-02-07, 08:46 PM	Egoism is the very essence of a noble soul. :) I totally thought that was Latin at first, since I was reading it and understanding a lot of it. Lingua francia filia latinae est, sic multum intellegere potes solum lingua anglica sine latine multum intellegere potes quoque....
MarkHall 09-02-07, 09:52 PM	The Greek gods being banned could have been what ended up in Apollo "fracturing," What's this about the Greek gods being banned? (And I followed it because I have a little Latin, and my ex speaks fluent French, and inflicted it upon me)
BadCatMan 09-02-07, 10:26 PM	In Tyche's entry in Planescape: On Hallowed Ground, it says that Tyche was exiled from Olympian pantheon for some reason, and she fled to Toril. Hermes and Pan sent their avatars to check up on her, but they're barred. I took it to mean that the Olympian gods as a whole were restricted, as the pantheon is unknown on Toril. But given the rare cameo appearances of Tyche, Typhon, Chronos/Cronus, Poseidon and maybe Dionysus, maybe it is just Hermes and Pan who can't get in.
gang 09-04-07, 12:25 PM	In Tyche's entry in Planescape: On Hallowed Ground, it says that Tyche was exiled from Olympian pantheon for some reason, and she fled to Toril. Hermes and Pan sent their avatars to check up on her, but they're barred. I took it to mean that the Olympian gods as a whole were restricted, as the pantheon is unknown on Toril. But given the rare cameo appearances of Tyche, Typhon, Chronos/Cronus, Poseidon and maybe Dionysus, maybe it is just Hermes and Pan who can't get in. I'm not familiar with any references to Greek deities in Faerun. Can you enlighten me please?
BadCatMan 09-04-07, 09:13 PM	Okay. * The Forgotten Realms Campaign Set, aka The Ol' Grey Box, says that the Olympian pantheon is unknown on Toril, but strangely suggests a similarity been Sune and Athena. I can find no such similarly, and assume it means Sune and Aphrodite/Venus. * Typhon is an alias for Set in Powers & Pantheons, known in Thay and Unther. I can find no details on Typhon, but the identification with Set started back on Earth. * Tyche is an old Netherese deity of luck and fortune, but she split into Tymora and Beshaba after Moander got to her with rotten luck (various sources). Planescape's On Hallowed Ground says that Tyche was exiled from the Olympian pantheon, and is somehow hiding out in both Tymora and Beshaba. * Poseidon is worshipped by a few clerics in the Impilturan navy in The Bloodstone Lands sourcebook. * A deity known as Chronos, Kronus, or Karonis was worshipped in the small kingdom of Orva, now sunk in Cormyr's Vast Swamp. He was absorbed into the elven deity Labelas Enoreth. This god appears in Demihuman Deities and in the Four From Cormyr adventure. Of course, back on Earth, Kronus and Chronos were two entirely different entities, combined only for their similar names. * A Friar Tuck-like priest in the Bloodstone Lands adventures was said to be a member of the Order Of St Dionysus. The Bloodstone Lands sourcebook repeats the character but does not mention St Dionysus (correction DOES mention him), but seems linked to Ilmater. Faiths & Avatars resolves the issue, and makes Dionysus an Ilmateri saint, so he must have been human, not a god.
godbeepit 09-04-07, 10:10 PM	I got halfway through the French before I got stumped. My Latin is too rusty and I didn't pursue it far enough to be able to translate French easily. And Dan, how could you ever confuse Latin and French? I can see translating it, but to actually read it as Latin is just ridiculous. I mean what with all those x's and eu's everywhere. ;) Wow, I'm scared. If Dan's a grognard, and I'm a kid speaking Latin... I've already started the path! Nooooo!!!!:weep:
Chloramantis 09-05-07, 11:07 AM	Note that Lathander doesn't actually have the sun portfolio, but rather has the dawn portfolio. Eric Boyd has suggested that the sun gods of Faerūn wax and wane in cycles of threes, with aspects of the Dawn, Day (or Highsun), and Dusk alternating in power once an age. If Lathander is the Dawn and Amaunator is the Day aspect, it is theorized that the third aspect is whoever holds the dusk portfolio, which in the Netherese era was Jergal, but after the fall of Netheril was passed on to Myrkul. Note that Myrkul died during the Time of Troubles, so Lathander has had a period where he has been ascendant, or at his zenith if you will. There are some stirrings in the lore that suggest that Lathander may be about to enter a period where he starts to diminish, and a new Highsun aspect starts to arise in the Realms. Some people believe that Lathander may just gradually turn into Amaunator, or that Amaunator may be resurrected. Although it could be that, as Mulhorand culture begins to interact more with the greater Faerūnian culture, their pantheon will merge with the greater Faerūnian pantheon, and when that happens, the Mulhorandi sun god Horus-Re may step into the Highsun aspect of the sun god of Faerūn that Amaunator used to occupy. I halfway think he might adopt the Amaunator name as an alias, although there are heresies within the Lathander church that worship Lathander under the Amaunator name (or vice versa). So this is why there is so much Amauntor stuff recently! Mielikki gained dusk after Myrkul's death along with autumn?
capnvan 09-05-07, 11:51 AM	* Tyche is an old Netherese deity of luck and fortune, but she split into Tymora and Beshaba after Moander got to her with rotten luck (various sources). Planescape's On Hallowed Ground says that Tyche was exiled from the Olympian pantheon, and is somehow hiding out in both Tymora and Beshaba. * Poseidon is worshipped by a few clerics in the Impilturan navy in The Bloodstone Lands sourcebook. * A Friar Tuck-like priest in the Bloodstone Lands adventures was said to be a member of the Order Of St Dionysus. The Bloodstone Lands sourcebook repeats the character but does not mention St Dionysus, but seems linked to Ilmater. Faiths & Avatars resolves the issue, and makes Dionysus an Ilmateri saint, so he must have been human, not a god. At the risk of being flamed wildly, I'm going to suggest, humbly, that the author of FR9 has tended to create what might be called wholesale changes to the Realms seemingly with little concern for continuity. Not all canon is as canon as the rest, IMHO. In addition, after perusing Dragon #54 (I've gotten a lot of use out of the Ultimate Article Index in #112 recently), Ed Greenwood's article, "Down to Earth Divinity," on the subject of his creation of the Realms pantheon, I do have a few tidbits to add: At that time, 1981, it was Tyche, not Tymora. There was a Beshaba as well, in her current form. Dunno when or why the change came about. Sune is Aphrodite, renamed. Whether Sune is an "aspect" of Aphrodite is something he didn't go into. Chauntea is a "rewritten Demeter." Again, whether she is an "aspect" of Demeter was something I suspect young Mr. Greenwood didn't really concern himself with. Gond is "Hephaestus renamed." Lathander doesn't share any of the "real world" connections (others, from other pantheons, include Mielikki, Loviatar, Azuth, Silvanus, etc.) that the Greek-inspired deities do. But then, he didn't list Amaunator under his pantheon listing, either.
GothicDan 09-05-07, 01:31 PM	As I don't have actual access to that article - who was Azuth based on?
customdrapery 09-05-07, 05:42 PM	I believe Azuth was meant to be a renamed Aarth from Nehwon. It's hard to pin down the actual Greek/Roman pantheon since it seems Ed used them as the basis for many of his pantheon. I always thought Lathander was sort of like Apollo but the article lists him as original. Of course it also says that Tyche was actually a combination of Tyche and the Egyptian god Bes. Mielikki did not get "dusk" from Myrkul, she just got autumn. No one knows where dusk is, lending credibility to the three-faced sun idea. Dusk and highsun are not evident and the only one visible is dawn (Lathander). Hence all the activity regarding a possible rebirth of Amaunator as highsun or Lathander assuming that portfolio or Horus-Re taking it over, etc. There's even some thought that some god (probably Lathander) may be attempting to get all three aspects and save themselves from "setting".
Gray Richardson 09-05-07, 07:49 PM	So this is why there is so much Amauntor stuff recently! Mielikki gained dusk after Myrkul's death along with autumn?Actually, no. No one seems to have the Dusk portfolio at present. It may be unclaimed, or temporarily unclaimable, lying fallow if you will, until such time as the the Dawn portfolio has "set". It is also possible that the Dusk portfolio lies within the Crown of Horns (if a portfolio can be said to even have a location), with what remains of Myrkul's essence. Regardless, the absence of the Dusk portfolio is a mystery that has yet to be explained.
BadCatMan 09-05-07, 08:58 PM	Correction: the Bloodstone Lands sourcebook DOES mention St Dionysus At the risk of being flamed wildly, I'm going to suggest, humbly, that the author of FR9 has tended to create what might be called wholesale changes to the Realms seemingly with little concern for continuity. Not all canon is as canon as the rest, IMHO. To be fair on RA Salvatore, he was probably (I'm guessing here) told by TSR to adapt the Bloodstone Lands adventures for inclusion in FR. The adventures, non-FR at the time, included St Dionysus, as well as silly 100 level characters based on Perseus, Circe, Hermes and Artemis. Salvatore probably assumed a Greek pantheon was in operation, then thought better of it, for the religion section of the Bloodstone Lands sourcebook includes all FR gods, plus the mysterious St Dionysus who couldn't be removed. The one lone stray mention of Poseidon probably escaped editing (that's 12 clerics of Poseidon aboard an Impilturan warship). The rest of the book seems to have kept to canon and continuity and flavour. I was only covered the named Greek deities that canon-wise exist in the Realms. If we covered all the gods who were sorta like another god, we'd be here all day. :)
ripvanwormer 09-07-07, 01:57 AM	Unfortunely, the Greek Gods were banned from following Tyche into Realmspace, as per one of the Planescape sources. I don't think this is a ban on the Greek powers specifically, but just a ban on alien deities from sending avatars to Realmspace before they've nurtured a local cult. If Apollo sent in priests first and started a fair-sized religion, he'd be able to send an avatar in. After all, if Tyche and other interlopers could do it, so could Apollo, at least in theory. The actual quote's from On Hallowed Ground, page 127: "Both Hermes and Pan have sent out avatars seeking the truth of Tyche's decline, but they're barred from the Torilian sphere and can't dig up the dark. Soon enough, though, a body can bet, they'll send their priests through portals to figure it out to their satisfaction."