| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Blazanar05-08-07, 08:08 PM | I used to have an elven paladin and it never worked out because i had to worship a lawfulgood god and none of the elven gods were lawful, they all were chaotic...my dm never lets us use variants...does anyone know how to help me solve this problem please?:confused: :confused: :confused: |
| Lady_Mhaor05-08-07, 08:17 PM | >.< arrgh bold big print :P anyway worship the god of your characters choice, also long as the god isn't evil you can still be a paladin of that faith it just might be little harder to rp |
| MaskedOne05-08-07, 09:54 PM | If memory serves, human divinities normally accept agents from any race. Just pick one of the qualifying human deities. Otherwise, GD or Zandilar can refer you to an obscure (to me) qualifying member of the Seldarine that can legally support Paladins without pulling a Sune. |
| Dielzen05-08-07, 10:02 PM | Champion of Correlan (sp?) from Races of the Wild. Paladin of Freedom from Unearthed Arcana. |
| Zevox05-08-07, 11:27 PM | Elven Deities don't have Paladins, plain and simple. They're chaotic, and Paladins are lawful - doesn't mesh. Which is why Elves are rarely Paladins. If you want to be an Elf Paladin, you have to worship a non-Elven deity. If you just want to be the holy warrior of an Elven Deity, the Divine Champion PrC (FRCS/PGtF) or Holy Liberator PrC (Complete Warrior) work nicely. I also heard someone around here (Dan I think) say that Bladesingers are more or less the Elven equivalent of Paladins, so thats something to think about. Zevox |
| Mad Mage05-09-07, 12:55 AM | Champion of Correlan (sp?) from Races of the Wild. Paladin of Freedom from Unearthed Arcana. I think pretty much trumps this idea. :embarrass my dm never lets us use variants |
| GothicDan05-09-07, 01:59 AM | The primary role of the Paladin was to promote Law and Good, and the attendant cultural codes of ethics that went along with those abstracts (based once upon Judeo-Christian knightly codes). They seek to defend the weak and maintain what is good and just. These are all fine and good goals in the culture for which the class-archetype was created. The majority of Elves are Chaotic (Avariels, Moon, Wild/Wood, Star, Aquatic, Drow, and some Sun). All of the Seldarine are chaotic save Darahl Firecloak, the LN (with Good tendencies) Elven demigod of fire and earth magic. There's also a LN deity of war and retribution, I think, in Races of the Wild, but she is a part of the Greyhawk-Seldarine (since RotW is core), not the FR Seldarine. Thus, the religion of the Seldarine in general does not in any way lend to the idea that they would charge warriors with holy favor to carry about the duties of a LG Judeo-Christian paradigm. To me, the alignment isn't even as much of an issue as much as the culture clash is one. As has been suggested, however, you could simply be an Elf that was raised among humans for whatever reason, and picked up the worship of human deities. There's a possibility that you could be an Elf that had been raised with your own kind and turned to the worship of a human deity, and became a Paladin of that deity... But the sort of dedication a Paladin has to a god is really something special, and you'd better have a darned good reason for effectively shunning the teachings of the Seldarine who had given you blessings beyond what a human could dream, and personally kept you relatively safe in Evermeet or whatnot. Barring the actual Paladin class, we can analyze the archetype. The Paladin is a warrior that's been gifted with unique opportunity and ability to act in the service of a deity, and to basically act as the protector and champion of his/her religion and all associated areas. This does indeed fit the Bladesinger as described in historical lore to a 't.' Despite lacking any direct divine magic, the Elves have never really separated them as much as other races (being that Elven High Magic is part divine and arcane, yet primarily utilized by arcane casters), and while a Bladesinger may not be able to heal, he can certainly utilize magic to protect his religion (and the Elven race as a whole, since Corellon Larethian is the deity of war and magic, and patron of the whole race) and crusade if need be. I'm sure there's any of a number of builds or feats or mechanical-suchness printed in the gazillions of rules books to give you access to some healing. And if you want the whole 'smiting' bit, you might consider taking some levels in Ranger and taking sensible favored enemies, or some levels in Rogue to get the sneak attack (and a similar effect). Though I think using arcane magic and the like to 'charge up' your attacks (like using the Arcane Strike Feat from Complete Arcane) would end up being thematically similar to 'smiting.' EDIT: Gah, I just left out words entirely last night. |
| Dielzen05-09-07, 03:18 AM | Champion of Cor isn't a variant, it's a Prestige Class. |
| Old Sage05-09-07, 03:40 AM | If memory serves, human divinities normally accept agents from any race. Just pick one of the qualifying human deities.Ed told us back in May '04 that most races can freely worship outside their traditional racial pantheons provided there's a valid reason for it -- in other words... pantheons and the deities associated with them *aren't* racially specific. And as we've seen in some of the lore in 1e/2e/3e FR... most races have groups that have, on occasion, worshipped deities outside their more traditional racial pantheons. Demihuman Deities notes several examples of humans worshipping dwarven deities and dwarves worshipping gnomish and elven deities for example. |
| Old Sage05-09-07, 03:41 AM | Elven Deities don't have Paladins, plain and simple. They're chaotic, and Paladins are lawful - doesn't mesh. Which is why Elves are rarely Paladins. If you want to be an Elf Paladin, you have to worship a non-Elven deity.Indeed. An individual elf may decide to become a paladin in a non-elf church. However, the concept of a paladin itself is something almost inherently tied to the humans (except for aasimar and saurials in 2e for example), and thus isn't really a part of elven society. |
| Zandilar05-09-07, 04:36 AM | Heya, If memory serves, human divinities normally accept agents from any race. Just pick one of the qualifying human deities. Otherwise, GD or Zandilar can refer you to an obscure (to me) qualifying member of the Seldarine that can legally support Paladins without pulling a Sune. As far as I know, none of the Seldarine qualify as an exception. In fact, Sune is the only exception to the one-step rule for Paladins (and only Paladins, clerics still need to be within one step of CG for Sune). Bladesinger might make a nice substitute for an elven paladin, as they pretty much fill the paladin's role already for elven society. If you're set on a paladin, a Paladin of Freedom (Unearthed Arcarna variant - but I think the OP ruled out variants?) or a Holy Liberator (PrC from Complete Warrior, I think), might be the go. (By the way, I agree with GothicDan. :) ) |
| MaskedOne05-09-07, 10:22 AM | I was referring to Firecloak or the divinity from RoW. I knew I'd heard about Firecloak from GD and thought I'd heard of the other from you. |
| Faraer05-09-07, 02:06 PM | ...does anyone know how to help me solve this problem please?:confused: :confused: :confused:What problem do you have? That is, do you want to play an elven non-LG so-called 'paladin', an elven (LG) paladin, an elven (LG) paladin worshipping an elven god, or what? |
| Mad Mage05-09-07, 05:54 PM | Champion of Cor isn't a variant, it's a Prestige Class. Paladin of Freedom is, though. |
| GothicDan05-09-07, 06:54 PM | I was referring to Firecloak or the divinity from RoW. I knew I'd heard about Firecloak from GD and thought I'd heard of the other from you. You did, whether or not she remembers it. Zandilar and I had a big discussion about that deity, and I believe it turned out that she ended up admitting the only reason she was pushing for including the core Seldarine deity into the FR Seldarine is simply because she was a female, even though her role was largely redundant already and her existence was ex nihilo. Tsk tsk, feminist! Now who's sexist? |
| Chance8705-09-07, 08:14 PM | Dragon #236 had 2 elven dieties who might be good options: for a martial paladin, Tethrin Veralde, NG god of bladesingers and swordsmanship; for a less martial paladin, Naralis Analor, NG god of healing, death, and easing of pain. |
| GothicDan05-09-07, 08:17 PM | The idea of a Paladin of the God of Bladesingers makes me giggle a little on the inside. |
| Chosen of Bane05-09-07, 10:22 PM | Wouldn't a Heretic of the Faith feat be appropriate? Just make a heresy that follows a lawful good skew of some member of the Seldarine. |
| GothicDan05-09-07, 10:35 PM | If his DM doesn't let him use variants, I doubt he'd let him use house rules, too (making up heresies). |
| Chosen of Bane05-09-07, 11:14 PM | Is it really a house rule though? As far as I know, the Heretic of the Faith is official realms material. It was published in Powers of Faerun. |
| Faraer05-09-07, 11:28 PM | The Heretic of the Faith feat is a mechanic to represent certain heresies which are for various reasons tolerated by deities. It doesn't mean a player can make those heresies up (and thus decide the actions of gods!) without the DM's approval. Anyway, the feat doesn't let you violate class alignment restrictions. |
| GothicDan05-10-07, 12:14 AM | Precisely. Powers of Faerun gives specific rules for the various heresies listed, so if you take the Feat and want to make a new one (and the associated differences in mechanics, if any), you'd have to run it by your DM first. |
| DaelricHearthsinger05-10-07, 10:19 AM | Now first off why you'd want to be a plate-wearing, sword wielding wrath of the gods chump is beyond me (read my sig for an example ;) ), but meh, assuming you'd want to be (and why?) perhaps Torm, or Ilmater, or Lathander would be up your far too pious alley mate? After all the human dieties tend be a little more inclusive than the Seldarine. On the other hand you can always be a Paladin of Freedom (as has been mentioned by others in this thread already). A little more my style, good, kind, but not afriad of losing their Paladinhood over something as silly as kissing the wrong barmaid ;) (wasn't Azoun one of these by the way ;) ) |
| The Ubbergeek05-10-07, 01:49 PM | Tell that to the paladins of Sune. ;) |
| DaelricHearthsinger05-10-07, 04:46 PM | Meh, always an exception that proves the rule. And I will tell the next Paladin of Sune I meet that... from a suitable distance of course. Of maybe I'll wait till the monthly celebration at the local Temple Of Sune...ah good times, good times :schemes: :dancin: :schemes: :dancin: :w00t: |
| Diffan05-10-07, 04:50 PM | (wasn't Azoun one of these by the way ;) ) Azoun was/could never be a Paladin. Now first off why you'd want to be a plate-wearing, sword wielding wrath of the gods chump is beyond me Because with the right build, Paladins can make a pretty good class and are at times fun to play. It's like saying "who would ever want to play a bard??!" I honesly wouldn't because I think they suck, but hey, that's my opinion. :). As for elven paladins, I'd say come up with a story to explain your devotion to a non-elven deity. Lathander and Sune are both pretty good deities to worship that aren't all about Law and Order. The prestige class Divine Champion, Holy LIberator, Divine Crusader, and the like are all good choices. If you want another approach at a paladin-type class, look into the Crusader from the Tome of Battle: Book of Nine Swords. They can be chaotic good and I'm sure some elves might be willing to follow that path. |
| Chosen of Bane05-10-07, 04:51 PM | .... (wasn't Azoun one of these by the way ;) ) If I remember correctly he was a Crusader, which was a completely different class in 2nd edition (where he was statted) than it is now in 3.5 in the book of broken sw...I mean, the Book of Nine Swords. |
| jamesnero05-10-07, 06:01 PM | You should worship mystra :ayyyy!: She's mystra what other reason do you need?? she has nifty sub levels in champions of valor :) In an obvious plug I have written a code of conduct for mystran paladins I could send it to you if youd like. |
| Elven Avenger05-10-07, 06:08 PM | Elven Society, does not need the Paladin Class at all, be that, a Paladin of Freedom, or whatever else you guys may give as an option. I will not give too much explanation, the fact is, that I just agree a lot with GothicDan and others with same opinion. That's my opinion related only to Forgotten Realms setting of course. |
| Lord_Steve05-10-07, 06:08 PM | You should worship mystra :ayyyy!: She's mystra what other reason do you need?? she has nifty sub levels in champions of valor :) In an obvious plug I have written a code of conduct for mystran paladins I could send it to you if youd like. Advertising....*sniggers* All beware the invasion of the Mystran Knights!!!! :invasion: *sniggers uncontrolably* :hides: |
| Zandilar05-10-07, 07:48 PM | Heya, A little more my style, good, kind, but not afriad of losing their Paladinhood over something as silly as kissing the wrong barmaid ;) (wasn't Azoun one of these by the way ;) ) Hmmm... Most paladins, unless they're from a specific order that enforces chastity (and I can't think of any, though I'm sure there are some*), wouldn't lose their paladinhood over a kiss. They probably wouldn't lose it over having sex outside of marriage either. They might lose it over getting someone pregnant and then taking off, however, but that's not the sort of thing that's in a paladin's nature - unless they're sliding towards another alignment. * By that I mean that an order of Tyr might enforce chastity, but another order of Tyr might not. So it's not specific to the gods. |
| The Ubbergeek05-11-07, 01:43 AM | As it is said many times also, FR=/=our world. Paladins don't work under a judeo-christian moral, but a sort of paganistic ones - they dont have vows of chastety and celibacy (not the same thing, btw) by default (except maybe some orders and patron deities). As long as a paladin is good and law-abiding and honorable, he surely can have a dame and hum... Get some flowery games on the bed.... The problem is also that we force the culture above the individual there. And elves are very much about the individual; you means that there should not be, can't be an elf who feels himself that he and perhaps his society should be more oderly (Lawfull) toward evil, and prefer a more... direct and stallwarth action against evil? Elves are humane, and can worship different gods, and perhaps think generaly so unlike the general consesus of the elvish koine. If evil elves like that Elaine (and Dalamar of FR) exist, so a lawfull one... |
| GothicDan05-11-07, 02:09 AM | Did you just call Elaine an evil elf...? *Cackles.* |
| The Ubbergeek05-11-07, 02:32 AM | Did you just call Elaine an evil elf...? *Cackles.* The guy was evil. Cold blooded. But honorable, strangely. See, I always said there is evil, and then EVIL, to quote Lufia. There is a difference between the LE soldier who think that elves are queer and not to be trusted, that halflings are stealing little... but who would not kill one until he broke the law severly, etc, and the uberfreak cleric of Loviatar that sounds like he is straight out of the Hellraiser movies. See my point? Or he is a cold and callous son of Vlaakith. *shrugs* |
| GothicDan05-11-07, 02:38 AM | Elaine is a female's name.. |
| The Ubbergeek05-11-07, 02:42 AM | Elaine is a female's name.. Elaine or Elaith Carnethaubert or whatever is 'his' name.... :rolleyes: Not my fault he had a sisiyfull name, then. |
| MaskedOne05-11-07, 02:52 AM | To bypass suspense, GD is laughing because the name mix up here is unique. Elaith is an elf. Elaine Cunningham is one of the more prominent authors for FR. It's slightly funny to see a human, female author called an evil, male elf. |
| GothicDan05-11-07, 03:13 AM | More importantly, Elaine is perhaps the foremost author of FR Elven novels and short stories and the like. So referring to her as an 'Evil Elf' was just hilarious. |
| Old Sage05-11-07, 03:29 AM | Speaking of Elaine Cunningham's remarkable contributions (http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_bestrealmselainecunningham) to the Realms over the years... |
| GothicDan05-11-07, 03:31 AM | !! I know to where part of my left over school loan money is going! <3 for Elaine! EDIT: Just reading all of the other authors' praises for Elaine... It makes me want to start writing all over again... Just so I can credit her if a novel of mine is ever published. Jebus, if I wasn't gay, I'd totally have a crush on this woman. |
| DaelricHearthsinger05-11-07, 08:59 PM | LOL wow didn't mean to stir up so many emotions twas but a joke. By Sharess you would think everyone on these boards was one of them stuck Knights In Shining Armor rushing to defend their friends ;). (again a joke...maybe.). And actually a Paladin can be alot of fun, and if you have access to Champions Of Valor, well thats just a great Realms pally sourcebook..tons of character options and feats to play with. And yes for the record.. I <3 Eliane too :D (isn't she part of the Divine Trio Of The Realms, Ed, R.A. and Elaine? Hmmm...maybe FR 4.0 Gods...LOL) |
| Old Sage05-11-07, 09:11 PM | I would likely replace RAS with Steven Schend... but that's just me. :P |
| Tyberian05-12-07, 11:03 AM | In effect you could have the character "make up" the heresy rather than the player. The character could begin as a paladin of a lawful god and at 6th level, after becoming a divine spellcaster, could chose the heretic of faith feat and begin the heresy, promoting a lawful view for an elven deity. In fact I believe that is very in line with the idea presented in powers of faerun. Also, I believe the description of the feat would allow him to switch deities without performing any form of atonement. |
| Diffan05-13-07, 02:21 AM | By Sharess you would think everyone on these boards was one of them stuck Knights In Shining Armor rushing to defend their friends ;). (again a joke...maybe.) Ever wear full plate mail? I swear donning all the metal and running around under the sun cooks our brains! |
| The Ubbergeek05-13-07, 02:27 AM | So, worshippers of Sharess, don't mock those guys - at least, they are badarse enough to stand the hell that is heavy armors on a long run, when you pass time in... ahem... delicious parties. ;) |
| GothicDan05-13-07, 09:25 AM | I would likely replace RAS with Steven Schend... but that's just me. If we were going for authors of both lore AND good writing... Oh yes. |
| Zandilar05-13-07, 10:30 AM | Heya, So, worshippers of Sharess, don't mock those guys - at least, they are badarse enough to stand the hell that is heavy armors on a long run, when you pass time in... ahem... delicious parties. ;) Don't be silly. :P Contrary to popular belief, clerics of the Feline of Felicity don't spend all their time indulging their pleasures. Sometimes they do, in fact, fight. When they do, clerics of Sharess know that plate armour is the best protection for a body that gold can buy (just like Sunites, we'd rather avoid scars if we can possibly help it)! :D Attach a set of claws to the bracers, and then you have a whirlwind of steel. Not to mention that clerics of Sharess tend to live in hot climes (Mulhorand and Calimshan), so they go about baking their brains too. :) Not just paladins wear plate, you know. ;) (I'd say "we", but technically I'm an aspect of Sharess myself, so I can't be my own cleric. :cool: :D) |
| Steelwind05-13-07, 11:06 AM | Elaine or Elaith Carnethaubert or whatever is 'his' name.... :rolleyes: Not my fault he had a sisiyfull name, then. :twitch: Di....did you just insult The Serpent, oh its on like donkey kong. J/k man and just for clarification his name is Elaith Craulnober. |
| Diffan05-13-07, 11:47 AM | :twitch: Di....did you just insult The Serpent, oh its on like donkey kong. J/k man and just for clarification his name is Elaith Craulnober. Hilarious! :) If we were going for authors of both lore AND good writing... Oh yes. Good writing is decided by the opinion of the reader, and as far as RAS goes, well his multitude of fans, published books, websites, and the fact that he's one of the most renown authors in the FR setting says it all. I know there are a few people who don't like him, but in cases that readers decide an author's popularity by opinion (and book sales) it's a fair bet to say that RAS is considered a good writer. As far as lore goes, he's always said that he doesn't take into account D&D rules to a certain degree. But what do I know, I'm just another Drizzt fan boy! |
| GothicDan05-13-07, 05:24 PM | Diffan, I wasn't remarking at all on RAS's writing style or creation or use of lore. Why so defensive? |
| Diffan05-13-07, 09:02 PM | Oh, sorry but it seemed that way. I get somewhat defensive over stuff like that. I usually see alot of people who bash writers, namely RA for the usual "not following" the rules of D&D and stuff like that and it gets me irritated. Sorry for the mishaps! :) |
| DaelricHearthsinger05-13-07, 10:21 PM | Well I'm not priest..but I am a "practicing" member of the Feline Ladies faith. And it's not like I dont appreciate those who choose (sigh) to wear plate, I do need somewhere to hide my oh so precious arse. After all, got's to keep me in shape for those monthly "congregatonal worship meetings" ;) MUCH LOVE TO PALLIES :) |
| GothicDan05-13-07, 10:54 PM | Oh, sorry but it seemed that way. I get somewhat defensive over stuff like that. I usually see alot of people who bash writers, namely RA for the usual "not following" the rules of D&D and stuff like that and it gets me irritated. Sorry for the mishaps! It's alright. I could care less about the "rules of D&D." What I care about is the "rules of the Realms." :) That being said... Sharess is one of my favorite deities, too. I had an old, old online character (Sensate CG human (were-panther) 8)... He was fun. |
| The Ubbergeek05-13-07, 11:08 PM | Gothicdan, the rules of d&d are also important. Sadly, it's half the fun - FR in itself AND the D&D leitmotiv. I dislike it personaly when it's like some are 'playing FR on D&D'. |
| GothicDan05-13-07, 11:12 PM | Gothicdan, the rules of d&d are also important. Sadly, it's half the fun - FR in itself AND the D&D leitmotiv. I dislike it personaly when it's like some are 'playing FR on D&D'. I was stating my opinion about my feelings... I really don't give a damn what other people feel. At least, not people I've never gamed with or even met. |
| WightPower05-14-07, 06:27 AM | just be evil.... its cooler steal more gold.... bed more women... Paladins = YAWN |
| Zandilar05-14-07, 08:56 AM | Heya, steal more gold.... bed more women... Paladins = YAWN I dunno... I once played a Paladin of Sune who bedded any good looking woman she came across. ;) She really should have been a Sharessan, but Sune got to her first. :D In any event, she did end up with a soulmate (a paladin of the Red Knight) who was perfectly okay with her being polyamorous*. :) (I should add that Sune and Sharess played a running battle over this character (I can't seem to remember her name! :() at one point, trying to win her over**. It did get quite a bit silly in the end.) I think of all the deities that a Paladin can belong to, Sune would be, by far, the most flexible, and wouldn't be as quick to take a paladin's powers away as say Tyr would be. In some ways, that's one of the reasons why Sune actually having paladins doesn't make sense - I just can't see Sune punishing a paladin for putting Love*** before Law. (Evil's not all it's cracked up to be.) * Aside from her sex life, this character was actually very disciplined, and had quite a strong code of honour. She was probably best described as Lawful Good with strong Neutral Good leanings... She may well have ended up falling if the DM (and thus Sune ;)) hadn't been so flexible on her alignment... **Yes, she would have indeed become an ex-paladin if Sharess had won - perhaps she may have ended up taking levels in Divine Champion or, if she'd fallen that far away from Lawful, Holy Liberator. ***I know, love isn't just sex, it's far more than that. My Sunite Paladin was very aware of that, and it was the fact that she loved easily (and passionately) that probably saved her from falling on numerous occasions. |
| DaelricHearthsinger05-14-07, 09:09 AM | Hmm a polyamourous Paladin...I think I have a new short story idea!! And regardless just remember it's all about what you want to play and how you play it. From polyamorous Pallies (you were thinking Azoun weren't you?) to morally ambigious hedonistic mages to rogues with a heart of gold, its all about what you want (and what the DM will allow of course ;) ). The beauty of D&D has always been, "Be who ya want, Do what ya want." So bottom line is this, play what you want regardless of the spells and arrows of us morally ambigious mages out there ;) |
| The Ubbergeek05-14-07, 11:57 AM | just be evil.... its cooler steal more gold.... bed more women... Paladins = YAWN Evil characters get tiring at least on the long run - when they are not making you uneasy. "Buahaha, I am EVEEEEEEEEEEEEEL!! I shall kill you and take what I want!" Ehhh, whatever. It's quite juvenile, even. And, no guys Zandilar? o.ô |
| VulcanStormwrath05-14-07, 04:17 PM | Helm, god of merciless beatings in the name of what is right. I mean c'mon his holy symbol is the Iron B***h slap. If you want a hardnosed enforcer with absolutely no sense of humor, he's the man. |
| Zandilar05-14-07, 07:29 PM | Heya, Hmm a polyamourous Paladin...I think I have a new short story idea!! And regardless just remember it's all about what you want to play and how you play it. From polyamorous Pallies (you were thinking Azoun weren't you?) to morally ambigious hedonistic mages to rogues with a heart of gold, its all about what you want (and what the DM will allow of course ;) ). The beauty of D&D has always been, "Be who ya want, Do what ya want." So bottom line is this, play what you want regardless of the spells and arrows of us morally ambigious mages out there ;) Well, actually no... I wasn't thinking Azoun IV. There seems to be a fairly common misconception that he was a paladin, but he was, in fact, a cavalier in 1st Edition, in 2nd Ed he was a fighter with the cavalier kit (when it was introduced), and I think in 3rd Ed, he was just a fighter (and probably had all the mounted combat feats! ;)). He was LG, though. I guess it just goes to show that not all marriages involve a vow to be monogamous. ;) @Ubbergeek - nah, the character was a lesbian. ;) |
| DaelricHearthsinger05-14-07, 08:26 PM | Well color me embarassed ... I honestly thought he was a paladin..meh oh well. And Vulcan...I dont know..would you prefer your dieties holy symbol be a b**** slap or a pair of luscious red lips ;) |
| WightPower05-15-07, 06:02 AM | Evil characters get tiring at least on the long run - when they are not making you uneasy. "Buahaha, I am EVEEEEEEEEEEEEEL!! I shall kill you and take what I want!" Ehhh, whatever. It's quite juvenile, even. And, no guys Zandilar? o.ô you obviously weren't evil enough! ;) |
| Diffan05-15-07, 01:26 PM | Heya, Well, actually no... I wasn't thinking Azoun IV. There seems to be a fairly common misconception that he was a paladin, but he was, in fact, a cavalier in 1st Edition, in 2nd Ed he was a fighter with the cavalier kit (when it was introduced), and I think in 3rd Ed, he was just a fighter (and probably had all the mounted combat feats! ;)). He was LG, though. I guess it just goes to show that not all marriages involve a vow to be monogamous. ;) Hopefully in 3.5 they utilized the PHB II and made him a high level knight with maybe a few levels in Divine Champion, though I don't know if he really prayed to any deities. |
| GothicDan05-15-07, 01:28 PM | I think he was stated as having followed Tyr. But I'd go Knight/Purple Dragon Knight. |
| Zandilar05-15-07, 07:27 PM | Heya, Hopefully in 3.5 they utilized the PHB II and made him a high level knight with maybe a few levels in Divine Champion, though I don't know if he really prayed to any deities. Divine Champion? Why? Divine Champion implies a certain extraordinary level of devotion to a deity, much like a Paladin or a Cleric - if you're not even certain whether or not he prayed to any deities, why would you even make that suggestion? :confused: Azoun IV may have had worshiped Tyr, but he served Cormyr first. Knight is an excellent call (and probably the Cavalier PrC too). You're not geting confused with Lord Nasher Alagondar of Neverwinter (who is a Divine Champion of Tyr), are you? |
| Diffan05-15-07, 09:56 PM | Azoun IV may have had worshiped Tyr, but he served Cormyr first. Knight is an excellent call (and probably the Cavalier PrC too). You're not geting confused with Lord Nasher Alagondar of Neverwinter (who is a Divine Champion of Tyr), are you? Yea, that's probably it. Dan hit it on the head with the Purple Dragon Knight PrC. |
| Swiftblade05-15-07, 10:17 PM | Just because a society seems chaotic, doesn't mean it doesn't have laws and other codes of conduct. Think towards the latest Mythal series, I won't elaborate, but will say one main character there exhibits LG as an elven warrior. And not all paladins have to be plate totting idiots that only know how to heal wounds and swing swords. Find an elven diety with NG or LN(highly doubtful on that last one) and you have your in. That is to skip house rules or variances. Just try your best and hopefully something works out. |
| GothicDan05-15-07, 10:45 PM | Just because a society seems chaotic, doesn't mean it doesn't have laws and other codes of conduct. If you'll look back at my posts, you'll see that my argument had the least to do with alignment issues, and more to do with cultural ones. There are a very few non-Chaotic Seldarine, none of them having particularly martial aspects, besides the stated NG deity of bladesong. Again, Darahl Firecloak is a LN member of the Seldarine, but he's never been stated as having anything remotely resembling an order of Paladins - which makes sense, since his worship is made up of Elementalists (Fire and Earth). As to the Last Mythal trilogy? I wouldn't use it as a basis for 'standard' Elven culture in any way. |
| Swiftblade05-15-07, 10:48 PM | Never meant it to be set as a standard. Just meant to show that it could exist. |
| Zevox05-16-07, 01:57 AM | I think he was stated as having followed Tyr. But I'd go Knight/Purple Dragon Knight. I recall Kuje once saying that Azoun IV worshiped Tyr and Tempus equally. ('Twas during a discussion about the Faerûnian afterlife and the concept of picking just one patron and whatnot.) I'd agree on the classes. Suits him I think. Zevox |
| GothicDan05-16-07, 02:06 AM | Tyr and Tempus... LG and CN... I really love that dichotomy of alignments! |
| The Ubbergeek05-16-07, 02:11 AM | Tyr and Tempus... LG and CN... I really love that dichotomy of alignments! Remember, it's a polytheist world - even the clerics offer hommages to other gods at times. And the portfolios can trump alignements at times. |
| GothicDan05-16-07, 02:14 AM | I know. That's yet another reason I dislike the ToT (the whole 'patron deity' thing, which is an incredibly neopagan idea, rather than polytheistic). |
| The Ubbergeek05-16-07, 02:26 AM | I know. That's yet another reason I dislike the ToT (the whole 'patron deity' thing, which is an incredibly neopagan idea, rather than polytheistic). Neopagan is polytheim much (in part). *shrugs* The ToT have never changed that aspect - and patronage don't break up the thing wholly. In our polytheistic cultures, many men and women took patronage of a god or goddess specialy. Bands of warriors dedicated to Thor, cults of a specific god, etc... The patron don't means you only worship one god - it means, it is your patron merely, the one you like specialy. Only 'foolish, jealous' gods like Cyric or the elemental deities tend to frown (at least) on venerating the other gods. To quote Shadowrun, it's like your totem, the devine aspect who match your soul. |
| Zandilar05-16-07, 04:22 AM | Heya, I know. That's yet another reason I dislike the ToT (the whole 'patron deity' thing, which is an incredibly neopagan idea, rather than polytheistic). I agree with Ubbergeek in that it really isn't just a neo-pagan idea. There are plenty of examples of ancient cultures that have temples and/or cults dedicated to a single deity. I think a patron deity, in the case of a non-cleric, is the deity that a person feels a stronger affinity to... Kind of like their favorite deity... And ultimately, that is the deity they will end up going to when they die. Where I potentially agree with you, Dan, is in the idea that a non-divine caster type person might actually feel stronger affinities towards more than one deity, and therefore have more than just one patron... In that case what determines where a person's soul goes? In the Great Wheel, alignment would most likely be the determining factor... but if you're not using the Great Wheel, then what? The best answer would be, whichever deity's cause the person most advanced in their lifetime... So a farmer who honoured Silvanus, Mielikki, and Chauntea as his patrons, would end up with Chauntea, especially if he's a successful farmer. Sometimes this might mean a person will end up in the vicinity of more than one of their patrons. I'm leaving divine caster types (Paladins, Ranger, Druids, and Clerics) out of this, because they really should be beholden to a single deity - even if they might acknowledge and even occasionally pray to deities other than their primary patron... Unless you want to introduce the idea of clerics who serve the entire Pantheon, which would then change the flavour of how things work. (Hmm... following on from that thought... You could modify the Realms so that there are churches dedicated to the whole pantheon, or just a segment of the pantheon (like all the gods of Brightwater, or all the gods of Dweomerheart), or just one single deity... but that would require changes to a lot of lore, I think.) |
| GothicDan05-16-07, 10:47 AM | I agree with Ubbergeek in that it really isn't just a neo-pagan idea. There are plenty of examples of ancient cultures that have temples and/or cults dedicated to a single deity. I think a patron deity, in the case of a non-cleric, is the deity that a person feels a stronger affinity to... Kind of like their favorite deity... And ultimately, that is the deity they will end up going to when they die. Temples dedicated to a single deity do not indicate patron deities, especially when in Classical culture you weren't even allowed in the temple. It just means you went there to pay homage to that god, and to another temple to pay homage to another, and so on. Cults are just that because they were exceptionally rare and not typically socially accepted - otherwise they wouldn't have cult status. And their 'favorite deity'... I'd love to see a few examples, historically or literary, where figures have favorite deities which they obviously revere as patrons above others. Where I potentially agree with you, Dan, is in the idea that a non-divine caster type person might actually feel stronger affinities towards more than one deity, and therefore have more than just one patron... Now, that I can agree with. I just don't think it was common in the ancient world to have single patron deities. And Ed seems to agree with this, saying, typically, only zealots (divine spellcasters) worshipped single deities to the point of them being THE patron. I'm leaving divine caster types (Paladins, Ranger, Druids, and Clerics) out of this, because they really should be beholden to a single deity - even if they might acknowledge and even occasionally pray to deities other than their primary patron... Unless you want to introduce the idea of clerics who serve the entire Pantheon, which would then change the flavour of how things work. (Hmm... following on from that thought... You could modify the Realms so that there are churches dedicated to the whole pantheon, or just a segment of the pantheon (like all the gods of Brightwater, or all the gods of Dweomerheart), or just one single deity... but that would require changes to a lot of lore, I think.) I really don't think so. I think it'd be at least accepted among the Seldarine. And I know, when I was all of 12, I played a cleric of Lliira, Sune, and Sharess. ;) I really bet Ed (or any other designer with particular experience about Realms divinities) really wouldn't feel that it required any breaking/rewriting of previous lore. |
| GothicDan05-16-07, 10:50 AM | Neopagan is polytheim much (in part). *shrugs* The ToT have never changed that aspect - and patronage don't break up the thing wholly. In our polytheistic cultures, many men and women took patronage of a god or goddess specialy. Bands of warriors dedicated to Thor, cults of a specific god, etc... The patron don't means you only worship one god - it means, it is your patron merely, the one you like specialy. Only 'foolish, jealous' gods like Cyric or the elemental deities tend to frown (at least) on venerating the other gods. Do you have much actual knowledge of historical religious tendencies? Unless you served in a temple to a specific deity (and some deities were worshipped more than one in a temple), you typically did not choose single patron deities. I've really only seen this idea pop up in more recent neopagan religions (like Wicca). As Zandilar pointed out, it's far more likely to have found someone with MULTIPLE patron deities among polytheistic cultures, with each being lauded no more than the rest. MULTIPLE patron deities, I'll repeat. The ToT made that literally impossible. To quote Shadowrun, it's like your totem, the devine aspect who match your soul. While I've played and enjoy Shadowrun, I don't need it to tell me what a patron deity is. I've read enough books, including non-RPG ones, touching on the subject. |
| The Ubbergeek05-16-07, 12:29 PM | And then, Forgotten Realms is not the Earth. There, gods are like idol totems of Shadowrun, :P You have one Patron (but that don't remove you from honorating/placating other gods). The current system is not cramping your style. |
| GothicDan05-16-07, 02:40 PM | And then, Forgotten Realms is not the Earth. No, but in terms of religion, it's based roughly on European archetypes, so comparing European religious tendencies to those of Faerun is hardly the worst one could do. There, gods are like idol totems of Shadowrun, You have one Patron (but that don't remove you from honorating/placating other gods). The current system is not cramping your style. Only if I want to play the Forgotten Realms setting as I see the most fitting, which just happens to coincide with how it was in 1E. If that's the case - then, yes, it would cramp my style. |
| The Ubbergeek05-17-07, 03:23 AM | No, but in terms of religion, it's based roughly on European archetypes, so comparing European religious tendencies to those of Faerun is hardly the worst one could do. Only if I want to play the Forgotten Realms setting as I see the most fitting, which just happens to coincide with how it was in 1E. If that's the case - then, yes, it would cramp my style. Eh.... No. Faerun is more than a pseudo classical europe, and the existance of the more exotic classes can be a proof - cultural diffusion et all. Along the less classical-sounding deities like Sharess (Bastet), and Jergal (who may had been even not human...). It is not, don't be a grognard, don't worry and love the 'game'. ;) Plus, it allow more intimacy of a god and a cleric, better fitting for rping I say. I love clerics myself for such a thing - I have a spiritual side, and I like playing the mystic at times. |
| Zandilar05-17-07, 03:29 AM | Heya, I really don't think so. I think it'd be at least accepted among the Seldarine. And I know, when I was all of 12, I played a cleric of Lliira, Sune, and Sharess. ;) I really bet Ed (or any other designer with particular experience about Realms divinities) really wouldn't feel that it required any breaking/rewriting of previous lore. You know, you're right there, I think. :) I've been playing around with the idea of a cleric serving more than one god in the Realms in my head since my last post, and it seems to work okay without much fiddling. There does seem to be natural synergies between several detities, and multiple examples of characters serving more than one deity (like Qilue, who is a cleric of Eilistraee, but who also serves Mystra... like Myrmeen Lhal, formerly a Ranger of Meilikki, but for some unknown reason "traded" to Tymora due to some agreement between the two deities (Myrmeen was so favoured by Tymora, that the Lady who Smiles resided in Arabel during the Time of Troubles - so the rumor goes anyway ;))... I also seem to recall reading that some of the Seven venerate deities other than Mystra as their "patron" (Storm has Milil listed in Kuje's 2nd Ed list, if I recall correctly) - sure the Chosen of Mystra are different, and the Seven are literally Mystra's daughters, but I'm sure you can see what I'm getting at :)). Also, I've found several of my own PCs naturally falling into having "favorites" in addition to a single patron, wouldn't take much more of a push for them to have multiple patrons. This definitely bears more thought, I think... :plotting: Hmm... what would a temple to multiple gods be like, I wonder...? *wanders off daydreaming* |
| MaskedOne05-17-07, 09:29 AM | Wander in the general direction of Rashemen. I believe Elaine put a temple of multiple goddesses into Windwalker. Shrug, then again that temple may have honored them as 3 faces of one power. Other than that, while Spirit Soaring is run by a Chosen of Denier, I believe it's dedicated to multiple benevolent deities. |
| The Ubbergeek05-17-07, 01:28 PM | The problem is that would be abused by some munchkins, who would use it as an excuse to choose and mix domains for their clerics as they wish. And it's also that the writters also don't always respect the canon... |
| GothicDan05-17-07, 10:09 PM | Eh.... No. Faerun is more than a pseudo classical europe, and the existance of the more exotic classes can be a proof - cultural diffusion et all. Along the less classical-sounding deities like Sharess (Bastet), and Jergal (who may had been even not human...). Bast was (partially, at least) part of a general Indo-European archetype, which was somewhat carried on by Freya (goddess of love, beauty, battle, and felines), among others. You pointing out one deity that doesn't exactly fit into typical Western European culture does not mean that Faerun's pantheon was not originally designed with such things in mind. Ed has said as much. It is not, don't be a grognard, don't worry and love the 'game'. How about you stop telling the rest of us how to enjoy the game? The problem is that would be abused by some munchkins, who would use it as an excuse to choose and mix domains for their clerics as they wish. I really can't imagine that this would be very overpowering. The vast majority of Domain Powers are negligible, some are decent, and very few I would consider actually 'good,' especially in the long run. |
| GothicDan05-17-07, 10:13 PM | This definitely bears more thought, I think... Hmm... what would a temple to multiple gods be like, I wonder...? *wanders off daydreaming* If you want some real world inspiration, a lot of Classical world temples (the earlier and middle ones, at least) were dedicated to more than one deity. :) Some deities were almost ALWAYS found together in the same temple. There was a trio of Etruscan deities, one of which was Tinia (Zeus-figure), who was always found together in a temple with two female deities (one being a Hera figure, the other being an Athene one). |
| Swiftblade05-20-07, 11:59 PM | Actually, if we look at the Pantheonic outlook of European history and Myth, which both Greek and Roman parallel eachother very closely. It not mattered who was the main patron diety unless you were a priest or your city was home to that diety in aspect(myth based). Otherwise just pray to whomever had influence over your current duties or acts at the time necessary. And as far as the afterlife, in both Greek and Roman you went to one place if you were in favor Tartarus(Greek) Roman slips my mind currently. Or Hades if you had lost favor. Norse was a little different, following a God gave you spiritual powers in battle, but in the end it didn't matter who your patron was, you either ended up in Valhalla or you didn't. Egyptian was a little less forgiving, follow specific tenets of certain dieties or face their wrath. Faerun from all the books I read really doesn't follow any specific tenets of any polythiestic religion, but is a mix of many and also of the imagination. Also it is for an imagined world, so as to why this is absolutely worth fighting over the specifics over who is right and who is wrong escapes me. I love a good debate, but why go to the lengths of quoting a great author like Ed or RA to prove a point online to people you will most likely never meet rather than lending your opinion and letting it drop. I love the authors and what they write, and I like a lot of what is posted online. But please don't take this to a level of bickering. Most of the people who post on here have 10+ yrs of experience playing the game and find that they have to be right. Why? What happened to perspective being kept in check so that we can all learn from eachother and being able to get along. Chingiss Khan(most people would write his infamous spelling of Ghengis) had it right, control the masses by fear until they realize, no one is better than his neighbor, because we all have strengths and we all have weaknesses, only through working together can we eliminate the weaknesses of others and make the whole stronger. |
| Drew1369r05-25-07, 12:19 AM | Paladin of Melikki(sp?) Fits with the elves love of forest and a great protector of the cute, little, fluffy animals! |
| The Ubbergeek05-25-07, 01:32 AM | If you want some real world inspiration, a lot of Classical world temples (the earlier and middle ones, at least) were dedicated to more than one deity. :) Some deities were almost ALWAYS found together in the same temple. There was a trio of Etruscan deities, one of which was Tinia (Zeus-figure), who was always found together in a temple with two female deities (one being a Hera figure, the other being an Athene one). I admit it is not unheard of in the realms to a point - *points that so-called Triad*. Still, that remains an alliance of three clergies. |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 03:23 AM | I think any of the mini-pantheons (the Evergold Girls, the Deities of Fury, Silvanus and his daughters, the Magic group, the Knowledge trio) could very well share temples. |
| Zandilar05-25-07, 05:17 AM | Heya, I think any of the mini-pantheons (the Evergold Girls, the Deities of Fury, Silvanus and his daughters, the Magic group, the Knowledge trio) could very well share temples. Hmm.. The Evergold Girls? Evergold: Sune, Sharess, Hanali Celanil, and ? have I forgotten someone? Brightwater: Tymora, Sune, Lliira, Sharess, Waukeen So I suppose some deities would be in more than one mini-pantheon? |
| Old Sage05-25-07, 05:25 AM | I admit it is not unheard of in the realms to a point - *points that so-called Triad*. Still, that remains an alliance of three clergies.There aren't really any temples "to the Triad" anywhere -- though there are certainly temples containing shrines to all three deities. |
| GothWulf05-25-07, 10:09 AM | Heya, Hmm.. The Evergold Girls? Evergold: Sune, Sharess, Hanali Celanil, and ? have I forgotten someone? Brightwater: Tymora, Sune, Lliira, Sharess, Waukeen So I suppose some deities would be in more than one mini-pantheon? Selune is known to bathe in the Evergold from time to time. |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 11:51 AM | Hmm.. The Evergold Girls? Evergold: Sune, Sharess, Hanali Celanil, and ? have I forgotten someone? Brightwater: Tymora, Sune, Lliira, Sharess, Waukeen So I suppose some deities would be in more than one mini-pantheon? I was actually thinking of Brightwater, but both work! The idea of cross-pantheonic mini-organizations if kind of awesome. I helped Kuje out with making a demideity of stars, constellations, astronomy, and astrology that was tied to both Sehanine Moonbow and Selune. :) Similar idea. 'The Church of Magic,' servicing all magical deities, much in the way a nondenominational church would do the same for all Christians. That would be a cool concept, provided lots of lore and flavor was still kept in. Wasn't there a temple dedicated to tons of deities of darkness and shadow in one of the Cale novels, too? Multi-deity temples in the Realms seem more common than at first thought. GO POLYTHEISM! (Not the fake kind.) |
| The Ubbergeek05-25-07, 12:39 PM | Polytheism means many things Gothicdan, and have many variations, from the greek myths to the hindu/vedic continuum, passing by the candomblé. There is no hard and fast rules on it... |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 12:41 PM | Polytheism means many things Gothicdan, and have many variations, from the greek myths to the hindu/vedic continuum, passing by the candomblé. There is no hard and fast rules on it... Why, even monotheism could be polytheism, if you ignore history and definitions! Heck! I'm going to worship my paper clip! That could be polytheism too! Then I'll call it an Elf! Because I can! |
| The Ubbergeek05-25-07, 05:14 PM | Why, even monotheism could be polytheism, if you ignore history and definitions! Heck! I'm going to worship my paper clip! That could be polytheism too! Then I'll call it an Elf! Because I can! Meaning, elf, polytheism have many flavours. No need to be smart aleck. |
| GothicDan05-25-07, 10:44 PM | There's also no 'need' for you to doggedly reply to every one of my posts with hardly more than "no you're wrong because I say so," but you do it anyway. Obviously what is 'necessary' hardly comes into play on topics concerning purely personal opinion. |
| MerrikCale05-28-07, 12:34 PM | In fact, Sune is the only exception to the one-step rule for Paladins (and only Paladins, clerics still need to be within one step of CG for Sune). I believe Champions of Valor reference Selunite Paladins. |
| The Ubbergeek05-28-07, 02:07 PM | I believe Champions of Valor reference Selunite Paladins. Wasn't see used to be described as NG in old books, past editions? |
| GothicDan05-28-07, 06:24 PM | No. She was NG during the time of Netheril, and her alignment changed over the millennia. |
| MerrikCale05-28-07, 11:30 PM | No. She was NG during the time of Netheril, and her alignment changed over the millennia. true enough, which means Selune is now another exception to the paladin rule. Although in all likelihood it was just a fubar by the authors |
| GothicDan05-28-07, 11:34 PM | Most likely of Netheril. They fubared a lot. Though deities' alignments DO change over time. I really wish they had just made a base Crusader class INSTEAD of a Paladin altogether, a holy warrior with more generic Feats/abilities of divinity (not things like lay on hands, dispel evil, etc.), and then made all of the divine champions PrCs (like Paladin, or whatever would be appropriate for a given faith). So, say, a Crusader 5/Lunar Templar of Selune 5, or what not. |
| MerrikCale05-28-07, 11:38 PM | Most likely of Netheril. They fubared a lot. Though deities' alignments DO change over time. I really wish they had just made a base Crusader class INSTEAD of a Paladin altogether, a holy warrior with more generic Feats/abilities of divinity (not things like lay on hands, dispel evil, etc.), and then made all of the divine champions PrCs (like Paladin, or whatever would be appropriate for a given faith). So, say, a Crusader 5/Lunar Templar of Selune 5, or what not. If they had created a real Players Guide to Faerun, that would have been perfect. Along with a base Bladesinger class and some other race specific classes. PGTF might have been decent. |
| GothicDan05-28-07, 11:42 PM | PGtF still makes me throw up and cry a little... The idea of a Nightsword of Shar sounds nice in my head. |
| MerrikCale05-28-07, 11:44 PM | PGtF still makes me throw up and cry a little. It was not great, I'll give you that. Didn't make me cry but I feel it was a lost oppurtunity to do something more than just convert PrCs to 3.5. For example, new FR specific base classes like the Bladesinger or a Crusader would have been great. |
| GothicDan05-28-07, 11:54 PM | Another possibility would have been just giving oodles of Substitution levels and appropriate Feats for each of the base classes, though some base classes should have been entirely reworked altogether. I would have made Paladin a Crusader, taken out Monk (it really covers too many bases, and there's half a dozen ways to simulate one in the rules, with a little bit of creativity), combined Wizard and Sorcerer (as above)... Same for F&P, really. Cleric with Sub. Levels for the various deities and Initiate Feats would have almost made up for Specialty Priests... It just would have been awesome, like, to have had a Cleric of Talos, with sub levels at 1, 3, and 5, and then have, say, a single page of Feats related specifically to his clergy. It would have taken up about the same amount of room as a PrC, and given more options while still keeping to his clergy's theme, and possibly allowing one to better build a proper Specialty Priest. For example, as a first level sub, his clergy could have had the ability to spontaneously convert spells to a specific list of storm-related spells (listed in an appropriate Initiate Feat), and at 3rd level his clergy could have instead channeled power to control Elementals (Air) instead of controlling Undead... Sigh. |
| The Ubbergeek05-29-07, 12:07 AM | That's the roles of books like Unearthed Arcana and all. and somes of us like the rules as they are - I don't want some alternate, very divergent rules just for a setting (unless it was built from the start for it - and FR is supposed to be very much like GH, core, basic D&D), and the status of things like psionic and arcanum is an indicator I am not the only one. I disagree. |
| GothicDan05-29-07, 12:14 AM | and FR is supposed to be very much like GH, core, basic D&D) Where do you get that idea? The list of FR-specific rules is incredibly long from previous editions, showing that the standard rules made for GH didn't fit it very well at all, in some cases. |