Petetioner Larvae Ecology [Archive] - Wizards Community

Petetioner Larvae Ecology [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Suin Bahhar
09-25-07, 03:29 PM Has there been an article of some sort wich touches up upon the life and struggles of larvae on the fugue plane? Any stats? These pitiful creatures eat eachother and nothing else? Do they have brighter individuals among them who could try to get beter conditions for themselves?
Gray Richardson
09-26-07, 02:34 AM There are no larvae on the Fugue Plane. Souls on the Fugue Plane appear as the default standard ordinary petitioner type.

According to Players Guide to Faerūn, petitioners only appear as larvae in two planes: the Barrens of Doom & Despair and also in the Blood Rift.

Although there are no known divine realms in the Blood Rift, so it is unclear how petitioners get there. But perhaps night hags or yugoloths import them. Or I suppose that there are those out there who take the Scion of Sorrow feat, which allows one to take a yugoloth lord as a patron, so I guess those who do so would be brought to the Blood Rift at their death.

In the Nine Hells of the Realms, petitioners start out as lemures, and in the Abyss of the Realms, petitioners start out as manes.

There may be some larvae in the Abyss of the Realms, depending on if the Realms version has the layer called Woeful Escarand and how closely it duplicates it. No reason to think it doesn't so it is a good bet that you can find larvae on layer 400 of the Abyss in the Realms.
Shemeska the Marauder
09-26-07, 05:01 PM If you use FR within the Great Wheel cosmology, petitioners from Toril will still preferentially appear within the Fugue before being shuffled off to the domains of their various patron gods. In theory if they die out on the planes or another prime material world, they won't be bound by the strict rule of "go to the Fugue, go directly the Fugue, have a horrible fate if you don't pick a patron, do not pass Go, do not collect $200". Instead, their soul would be transported via the standard means to the domain of any patron deity, or go to the plane of their alignment without getting sucked into Kelemvor's wall.

Larvae would then appear in the Abyss, Baator, or the Gray Waste. On the former two planes, the transition into mane or lemure respectively is often quick or even spontaneous if they aren't killed or eaten first. On the Gray Waste they'll often be collected and sold like cattle by night hags, or devoured or used for arcane experiments by the yugoloths. A small minority of them however will manage to transcend their status and become hordelings. An even smaller percentage of hordelings may then eventually transform into night hags and perpetuate their agony on larvae in a cute little cycle.
Suin Bahhar
09-27-07, 06:24 PM Ah, I think I get it now. Souls of fearunians only become larvae on planes with fiendish energies nearby. So larvae have the same recollections of past lives as petitioners (they lose memory with passage of time). An early deceased petitioner of a yugololth lord will be taken from the fugue plane by a 'loth and travel to the Barrens or Blood Rift where he becomes a larvae first and a hordeling later?
Shemeska the Marauder
09-27-07, 07:25 PM An early deceased petitioner of a yugololth lord will be taken from the fugue plane by a 'loth and travel to the Barrens or Blood Rift where he becomes a larvae first and a hordeling later?

Yugoloths don't have any link to petitioners or larvae (as they predate the existance of mortal souls). If they die, more powerful 'loths may reform on their home plane, likely weaker for the defeat, or their essence is devoured by the plane itself and recycled into a new mezzoloth.
Gray Richardson
09-28-07, 01:28 AM There are several gods in the Barrens of Doom & Despair. Agents of those gods will collect souls from the Fugue and take them to those gods divine realms, where their forms will change into larval form, which is the default form on that plane.

I suspect that the larval form was set as the default by Talona, who is a goddess of disease and parasites, and is the oldest deity on the plane. In fact she may be the first inhabitant of the plane, as she is the original goddess of disease spawned in the War of Light & Darkness at the dawn of time in the Realms. I halfway think the plane was created by the other gods as a prison to contain her. But then again, she may have just created the plane that way because she likes it. There may have been other prisoners imprisoned there with her at the dawn of time that are no longer around. But I digress.

The gods of the Barrens don't have to leave their petitioners as larvae, but that will be the shape that they arrive in. After they get established in a particular divine realm, their patron god may transform them into more suitable shapes for that god. Banes petitioners seem to become soldiers. Not sure what Hoar or Auril turn their petitioners into. Talona probably leaves her petitioners as larvae, and I bet they are very at home in her vile, swampy realm.

The default petitioner form for the Blood Rift is also a larva. This is probably because the Blood Rift actually used to be a part of the Barrens of Doom & Despair before it was split off into it's own plane (or so it is thought).

But the Blood Rift is problematic in that it doesn't have many petitioners as there are no gods I am aware of that live there--unless possibly there is a Faerūnian aspect of Cegilune that lives in the Blood Rift.

Without patron gods, no petitioners would ever tend to find their way into the Blood Rift. Except of course those who have made a pact with a yugoloth lord (represented by the Scion of Sorrow feat) selling their souls to that lord upon the seller's death.
Shemeska the Marauder
09-28-07, 01:38 AM Without patron gods, no petitioners would ever tend to find their way into the Blood Rift. Except of course those who have made a pact with a yugoloth lord (represented by the Scion of Sorrow feat) selling their souls to that lord upon the seller's death.

W/ respect to the 3e FR cosmology, this wouldn't be a problem if you assume that it's not just Toril feeding souls to those planes, but multiple worlds, not all of whom have the same regulations on the transit and transition of mortal souls. There's certainly evidence to at least tentatively suggest something like this, even if we don't include pre-3e lore from FR within the Great Wheel.
Xamo'das
09-28-07, 04:58 PM Yugoloths don't have any link to petitioners or larvae (as they predate the existance of mortal souls). If they die, more powerful 'loths may reform on their home plane, likely weaker for the defeat, or their essence is devoured by the plane itself and recycled into a new mezzoloth.

Is there any 3E source which actually states that yugoloths isn't primarily formed from mortal petitioners, or is this a holdover from 2E (or some homebrew on your part)?
Shemeska the Marauder
09-28-07, 05:12 PM Is there any 3E source which actually states that yugoloths isn't primarily formed from mortal petitioners, or is this a holdover from 2E (or some homebrew on your part)?

3e never delved deeply into the ecology of the 'loths, so the most detailed information comes from the 2e sources (Faces of Evil etc). However the 3e material on tanar'ri and baatezu openly discusses their link to and use of petitioners to make more of their kind, but makes no claims of the sort for the 'loths. The only real discussion of the 'loths and petitioners is the 3e MotP when the 'loths use flayed and stretched petitioners as living scrolls to hold contracts.

I suppose you can read into the flavor text in the 3.5 Dergholoth writeup in Dungeon -where they have the habit of devouring larvae- to imply that they nor their race as a whole pays mortal petitioners any particular heed, and doesn't consider them have to have much intrinsic worth to themselves. I should have used the opportunity to say something about the topic directly, but oh well. :)

And just based on timelines that you can piece together with 3e material, as the 'loths existed prior to mortals, the odds against them being linked to mortals in that way is counter intuitive.
Xamo'das
09-28-07, 05:36 PM 3e never delved deeply into the ecology of the 'loths, so the most detailed information comes from the 2e sources (Faces of Evil etc). However the 3e material on tanar'ri and baatezu openly discusses their link to and use of petitioners to make more of their kind, but makes no claims of the sort for the 'loths. The only real discussion of the 'loths and petitioners is the 3e MotP when the 'loths use flayed and stretched petitioners as living scrolls to hold contracts.

I suppose you can read into the flavor text in the 3.5 Dergholoth writeup in Dungeon -where they have the habit of devouring larvae- to imply that they nor their race as a whole pays mortal petitioners any particular heed, and doesn't consider them have to have much intrinsic worth to themselves. I should have used the opportunity to say something about the topic directly, but oh well. :)

And just based on timelines that you can piece together with 3e material, as the 'loths existed prior to mortals, the odds against them being linked to mortals in that way is counter intuitive.

Now that you mention it, NE outsiders - primarily yugoloths - have been shamefully neglected by the powers-that-be in 3E, thus you do indeed have a point that the old planescape supplements are the best source on them and their origins. However And just based on timelines that you can piece together with 3e material which 3E material are you referencing here?
Shemeska the Marauder
09-28-07, 07:18 PM However which 3E material are you referencing here?

Bits from articles by Eric Boyd and James Jacobs (and FC:I). Jacobs has the Obyriths appearing before the existance of both gods and mortals, and taken as a whole, it's repeatedly hinted that the first obyriths were created by the baernaloths (which as a twist upon yugoloth creation myths in some fun ways, would likewise put the 'loths as equally old and predating mortal life).
Xamo'das
09-30-07, 12:24 PM Bits from articles by Eric Boyd and James Jacobs (and FC:I).

Ahh, I see. Thanks for the reply.

Jacobs has the Obyriths appearing before the existance of both gods and mortals, and taken as a whole, it's repeatedly hinted that the first obyriths were created by the baernaloths (which as a twist upon yugoloth creation myths in some fun ways, would likewise put the 'loths as equally old and predating mortal life).

The bolded parts are right up your alley, if your excellent storyhour on Enworld is any indication! :)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Suin Bahhar 09-25-07, 03:29 PM	Has there been an article of some sort wich touches up upon the life and struggles of larvae on the fugue plane? Any stats? These pitiful creatures eat eachother and nothing else? Do they have brighter individuals among them who could try to get beter conditions for themselves?
Gray Richardson 09-26-07, 02:34 AM	There are no larvae on the Fugue Plane. Souls on the Fugue Plane appear as the default standard ordinary petitioner type. According to Players Guide to Faerūn, petitioners only appear as larvae in two planes: the Barrens of Doom & Despair and also in the Blood Rift. Although there are no known divine realms in the Blood Rift, so it is unclear how petitioners get there. But perhaps night hags or yugoloths import them. Or I suppose that there are those out there who take the Scion of Sorrow feat, which allows one to take a yugoloth lord as a patron, so I guess those who do so would be brought to the Blood Rift at their death. In the Nine Hells of the Realms, petitioners start out as lemures, and in the Abyss of the Realms, petitioners start out as manes. There may be some larvae in the Abyss of the Realms, depending on if the Realms version has the layer called Woeful Escarand and how closely it duplicates it. No reason to think it doesn't so it is a good bet that you can find larvae on layer 400 of the Abyss in the Realms.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-26-07, 05:01 PM	If you use FR within the Great Wheel cosmology, petitioners from Toril will still preferentially appear within the Fugue before being shuffled off to the domains of their various patron gods. In theory if they die out on the planes or another prime material world, they won't be bound by the strict rule of "go to the Fugue, go directly the Fugue, have a horrible fate if you don't pick a patron, do not pass Go, do not collect $200". Instead, their soul would be transported via the standard means to the domain of any patron deity, or go to the plane of their alignment without getting sucked into Kelemvor's wall. Larvae would then appear in the Abyss, Baator, or the Gray Waste. On the former two planes, the transition into mane or lemure respectively is often quick or even spontaneous if they aren't killed or eaten first. On the Gray Waste they'll often be collected and sold like cattle by night hags, or devoured or used for arcane experiments by the yugoloths. A small minority of them however will manage to transcend their status and become hordelings. An even smaller percentage of hordelings may then eventually transform into night hags and perpetuate their agony on larvae in a cute little cycle.
Suin Bahhar 09-27-07, 06:24 PM	Ah, I think I get it now. Souls of fearunians only become larvae on planes with fiendish energies nearby. So larvae have the same recollections of past lives as petitioners (they lose memory with passage of time). An early deceased petitioner of a yugololth lord will be taken from the fugue plane by a 'loth and travel to the Barrens or Blood Rift where he becomes a larvae first and a hordeling later?
Shemeska the Marauder 09-27-07, 07:25 PM	An early deceased petitioner of a yugololth lord will be taken from the fugue plane by a 'loth and travel to the Barrens or Blood Rift where he becomes a larvae first and a hordeling later? Yugoloths don't have any link to petitioners or larvae (as they predate the existance of mortal souls). If they die, more powerful 'loths may reform on their home plane, likely weaker for the defeat, or their essence is devoured by the plane itself and recycled into a new mezzoloth.
Gray Richardson 09-28-07, 01:28 AM	There are several gods in the Barrens of Doom & Despair. Agents of those gods will collect souls from the Fugue and take them to those gods divine realms, where their forms will change into larval form, which is the default form on that plane. I suspect that the larval form was set as the default by Talona, who is a goddess of disease and parasites, and is the oldest deity on the plane. In fact she may be the first inhabitant of the plane, as she is the original goddess of disease spawned in the War of Light & Darkness at the dawn of time in the Realms. I halfway think the plane was created by the other gods as a prison to contain her. But then again, she may have just created the plane that way because she likes it. There may have been other prisoners imprisoned there with her at the dawn of time that are no longer around. But I digress. The gods of the Barrens don't have to leave their petitioners as larvae, but that will be the shape that they arrive in. After they get established in a particular divine realm, their patron god may transform them into more suitable shapes for that god. Banes petitioners seem to become soldiers. Not sure what Hoar or Auril turn their petitioners into. Talona probably leaves her petitioners as larvae, and I bet they are very at home in her vile, swampy realm. The default petitioner form for the Blood Rift is also a larva. This is probably because the Blood Rift actually used to be a part of the Barrens of Doom & Despair before it was split off into it's own plane (or so it is thought). But the Blood Rift is problematic in that it doesn't have many petitioners as there are no gods I am aware of that live there--unless possibly there is a Faerūnian aspect of Cegilune that lives in the Blood Rift. Without patron gods, no petitioners would ever tend to find their way into the Blood Rift. Except of course those who have made a pact with a yugoloth lord (represented by the Scion of Sorrow feat) selling their souls to that lord upon the seller's death.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-28-07, 01:38 AM	Without patron gods, no petitioners would ever tend to find their way into the Blood Rift. Except of course those who have made a pact with a yugoloth lord (represented by the Scion of Sorrow feat) selling their souls to that lord upon the seller's death. W/ respect to the 3e FR cosmology, this wouldn't be a problem if you assume that it's not just Toril feeding souls to those planes, but multiple worlds, not all of whom have the same regulations on the transit and transition of mortal souls. There's certainly evidence to at least tentatively suggest something like this, even if we don't include pre-3e lore from FR within the Great Wheel.
Xamo'das 09-28-07, 04:58 PM	Yugoloths don't have any link to petitioners or larvae (as they predate the existance of mortal souls). If they die, more powerful 'loths may reform on their home plane, likely weaker for the defeat, or their essence is devoured by the plane itself and recycled into a new mezzoloth. Is there any 3E source which actually states that yugoloths isn't primarily formed from mortal petitioners, or is this a holdover from 2E (or some homebrew on your part)?
Shemeska the Marauder 09-28-07, 05:12 PM	Is there any 3E source which actually states that yugoloths isn't primarily formed from mortal petitioners, or is this a holdover from 2E (or some homebrew on your part)? 3e never delved deeply into the ecology of the 'loths, so the most detailed information comes from the 2e sources (Faces of Evil etc). However the 3e material on tanar'ri and baatezu openly discusses their link to and use of petitioners to make more of their kind, but makes no claims of the sort for the 'loths. The only real discussion of the 'loths and petitioners is the 3e MotP when the 'loths use flayed and stretched petitioners as living scrolls to hold contracts. I suppose you can read into the flavor text in the 3.5 Dergholoth writeup in Dungeon -where they have the habit of devouring larvae- to imply that they nor their race as a whole pays mortal petitioners any particular heed, and doesn't consider them have to have much intrinsic worth to themselves. I should have used the opportunity to say something about the topic directly, but oh well. :) And just based on timelines that you can piece together with 3e material, as the 'loths existed prior to mortals, the odds against them being linked to mortals in that way is counter intuitive.
Xamo'das 09-28-07, 05:36 PM	3e never delved deeply into the ecology of the 'loths, so the most detailed information comes from the 2e sources (Faces of Evil etc). However the 3e material on tanar'ri and baatezu openly discusses their link to and use of petitioners to make more of their kind, but makes no claims of the sort for the 'loths. The only real discussion of the 'loths and petitioners is the 3e MotP when the 'loths use flayed and stretched petitioners as living scrolls to hold contracts. I suppose you can read into the flavor text in the 3.5 Dergholoth writeup in Dungeon -where they have the habit of devouring larvae- to imply that they nor their race as a whole pays mortal petitioners any particular heed, and doesn't consider them have to have much intrinsic worth to themselves. I should have used the opportunity to say something about the topic directly, but oh well. :) And just based on timelines that you can piece together with 3e material, as the 'loths existed prior to mortals, the odds against them being linked to mortals in that way is counter intuitive. Now that you mention it, NE outsiders - primarily yugoloths - have been shamefully neglected by the powers-that-be in 3E, thus you do indeed have a point that the old planescape supplements are the best source on them and their origins. However And just based on timelines that you can piece together with 3e material which 3E material are you referencing here?
Shemeska the Marauder 09-28-07, 07:18 PM	However which 3E material are you referencing here? Bits from articles by Eric Boyd and James Jacobs (and FC:I). Jacobs has the Obyriths appearing before the existance of both gods and mortals, and taken as a whole, it's repeatedly hinted that the first obyriths were created by the baernaloths (which as a twist upon yugoloth creation myths in some fun ways, would likewise put the 'loths as equally old and predating mortal life).
Xamo'das 09-30-07, 12:24 PM	Bits from articles by Eric Boyd and James Jacobs (and FC:I). Ahh, I see. Thanks for the reply. Jacobs has the Obyriths appearing before the existance of both gods and mortals, and taken as a whole, it's repeatedly hinted that the first obyriths were created by the baernaloths (which as a twist upon yugoloth creation myths in some fun ways, would likewise put the 'loths as equally old and predating mortal life). The bolded parts are right up your alley, if your excellent storyhour on Enworld is any indication! :)