Petitioners - The Planes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Petitioners - The Planes [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Alfryn
04-10-07, 06:55 AM Looking through the Player's Guide to Faerun section on the Planes I have a few queries I wondered if anyone know the answer to.
Firstly, why is it that in some Planes the petitioners retain their mortal forms and in others they do not. This is not just an alignment thing as in Cyric's realm they retain their form but in Bane's they do not, whilst in Arvandor and the Demonweb the petitioners are transformed into elves and drow respectively even if they were not such races in life.
Second, on the last bit about elves and drow, does this mean that drow who end up in Arvandor are transformed back into looking like the original dark elves pre Crown Wars?
Thirdly, since Eilistraae encouraged her followers to return to the surface world to "Come in peace and live beneath the sun again where the trees and flowers grow" why does she dwell in a realm of perpetual night? Doesn't she like the sun? She may be a moon goddess but then so is Sehanine.
Lastly, given there has been a degree of speculation in other posts about the possible demise of certain gods, what happens to their worshipers if they die before another god has taken up the portfolio? Do they get stuck on the Fugue Plane because no one turned up to claim them? What if another god claims the portfolio but is of a different alignment to them and that god's realm is repellent to them. To give an example, take Ibrandul's petitioners. He was a neutral god but they are now under Shar who is evil. For that matter, in the Dungeon Master's book the Plane of Shadow is neutral but in the Forgotten Realms cosmology it is evil. However, working to the latter and the fact that one goes to the place of your patron god, not simply the most appropriate place in keeping with your alignment, who is considered to be the patron of a deceased god's petitioners?
Gray Richardson
04-10-07, 05:59 PM why is it that in some Planes the petitioners retain their mortal forms and in others they do not.A petitioner form that appears like your mortal form is the default. This default can be altered by the powers who inhabit a plane. Several planes have thus had their default petitioner form changed to something that better suits the powers who live there. The Seldarine have made the elf form the default for Arvandor.

Talona probably chose the vermiform shape of the larva as the base petitioner form for the Barrens of Doom and Despair, as she is a goddess of plagues and pests and plague-bearing insects. Talona is the oldest god in the Barrens--probably the original goddess of disease that originated in the War of Light & Darkness between Selūne and Shar. She probably chose the larval petitioner form way back in the beginning when the plane first formed. The plane of the Blood Rift is thought to have split off from the Barrens in the distant past, so that might explain why its base petitioner form is also the larva.

The base petitioner form of the Nine Hells is the Lemure, and the base petitioner form of the Abyss is the manes These forms seem to have been chosen either by the archfiends of those planes or possibly by the semi-sentient planes themselves.

There are many planes, however, where the base petitioner form has not been reset, so in most cases a creature just appears in a form similar to what it looked like in life. However, pretty much every plane gives its petitioners some sort of special quality or immunity or resistance specific to the plane.

Note that in the Forgotten Realms, pretty much every petitioner is escorted to its final afterlife from the Fugue Plane by an agent of its patron god. It is unclear if the change in its form or qualities is a ritual or effect imposed on it by the agent that takes it on its final journey, or some sort of effect the plane itself imposes on the petitioner upon arrival.

It is clear that a patron deity may alter the form and qualities of a petitioner as the god sees fit. A god can ignore the defaults of the plane or divine realm and either allow a petitioner to keep its mortal form or shape it into something entirely different.
Gray Richardson
04-10-07, 06:09 PM Second, on the last bit about elves and drow, does this mean that drow who end up in Arvandor are transformed back into looking like the original dark elves pre Crown Wars?Probably not. Although, it could be up to one's patron god (or more importantly the DM). Eilistraee wears her drow skin proudly and I don't think she would support the notion that black skin is anything to be ashamed of. If a drow was born that way, he would never have known any different color of skin so would likely keep that skin tone in Arvandor. Perhaps if a soul had been alive before the curse, if his skin tone had originally been that of a dark elf, then he might return to that look in the afterelife. But I doubt there are many still alive to whom that would be an option. Perhaps the odd dark elf baelnorn or the odd elf who had used longevity magic, or possibly a sharn.
Gray Richardson
04-10-07, 06:12 PM Thirdly, since Eilistraae encouraged her followers to return to the surface world to "Come in peace and live beneath the sun again where the trees and flowers grow" why does she dwell in a realm of perpetual night? Doesn't she like the sun? She may be a moon goddess but then so is Sehanine.Not sure, really. Just her personal preference. She could choose whatever lighting style she likes for her personal divine realm. So since her realm lies in eternal moonlight she must like it that way.

Then again, it might not be a matter of preference but rather a symbol of solidarity. Maybe she has pledged to live in darkness until all the drow are returned to the sunlight.
Gray Richardson
04-10-07, 06:35 PM what happens to their worshipers if they die before another god has taken up the portfolio? Do they get stuck on the Fugue Plane because no one turned up to claim them?Good question. Not necessarily. A god does not usually go in person to the Fugue Plane to collect recently deceased petitioners (except for Null, who always goes in person to collect every new dragon petitioner, roaring fiercely all the way to both herald and warn off any who would interfere with a dragon soul's passing to the afterlife.) A god usually sends an agent, called by some a psychopomp, whose duty it is to escort the soul from the Fugue to the patron's divine realm.

If the god were to die, in the absence of any contravening instructions, the agent might very well continue his duties of going to the Fugue Plane to retrieve newly deceased petitioners.

A soul could thus very easily be escorted to the divine realm of the deceased god, even after his death.

If the agent did not show up to the Fugue to collect the petitioner, he would wait there to be collected. During that time he might be approached by devils trying to persuade him to go to the Nine Hells. There might be the occasional demon raid as well, so if he can avoid being captured by a demon raiding party then he would have to bide his time in the Fugue.

Eventually, if no god came, the soul would probably feel a calling to report to Kelemvor's city for judgment. I suppose that Kelemvor could decide to judge the soul as Faithless and put him into the wall, but that seems doubtful. Rather, I think that Kelemvor might suspend his judgment and wait for some successor god to claim the mantle of the deceased one. In which case, the new god could send his agent for the petitioner and collect him once things had been put in order. Kelemvor might put the soul up in the city during the meantime, maybe give him light duties around the city or put him in the care of Kelemvor's own petitioners until such time as a successor god emerges.

If no successor were to take up the portfolios or the alias of the dead god, that could be problematic. I suppose that Kelemvor might possibly offer the soul the chance to accept K himself as a patron, in which case the soul would make his afterlife in the city, just like any other petitioner of Kelemvor. Or maybe he would allow an allied god (one allied to the deceased deity) to claim the soul.
Gray Richardson
04-10-07, 06:45 PM What if another god claims the portfolio but is of a different alignment to them and that god's realm is repellent to them. To give an example, take Ibrandul's petitioners. He was a neutral god but they are now under Shar who is evil. For that matter, in the Dungeon Master's book the Plane of Shadow is neutral but in the Forgotten Realms cosmology it is evil. However, working to the latter and the fact that one goes to the place of your patron god, not simply the most appropriate place in keeping with your alignment, who is considered to be the patron of a deceased god's petitioners?I suppose that a petitioner might be able to simply refuse to go with the agent of a successor god. I am not sure that a petitioner would have the wherewithal to do that, but if he did then he could remain on the Fugue Planel, and would probably be subject to Kelemvor's judgment.

In most cases, if an agent of "Ibrandul" shows up and says "come with me, we are going to your afterlife" the soul would probably just fall into line and go with him. The soul would probably not have any queues to tell him that there was a changeover in power in the divine realm. The soul would probably not suspect anything was fishy. If he willingly chose to go off with the agent, then it will probably just be his tough luck if he ends up in Shar's realm instead of Ibrandul's like he was expecting. It may not be fair, but the soul probably doesn't have much control over the situation.

If he refuses to accompany the agent of Shar, then he might not be any better off. His fate would then be in the hands of Kelemvor.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Alfryn 04-10-07, 06:55 AM	Looking through the Player's Guide to Faerun section on the Planes I have a few queries I wondered if anyone know the answer to. Firstly, why is it that in some Planes the petitioners retain their mortal forms and in others they do not. This is not just an alignment thing as in Cyric's realm they retain their form but in Bane's they do not, whilst in Arvandor and the Demonweb the petitioners are transformed into elves and drow respectively even if they were not such races in life. Second, on the last bit about elves and drow, does this mean that drow who end up in Arvandor are transformed back into looking like the original dark elves pre Crown Wars? Thirdly, since Eilistraae encouraged her followers to return to the surface world to "Come in peace and live beneath the sun again where the trees and flowers grow" why does she dwell in a realm of perpetual night? Doesn't she like the sun? She may be a moon goddess but then so is Sehanine. Lastly, given there has been a degree of speculation in other posts about the possible demise of certain gods, what happens to their worshipers if they die before another god has taken up the portfolio? Do they get stuck on the Fugue Plane because no one turned up to claim them? What if another god claims the portfolio but is of a different alignment to them and that god's realm is repellent to them. To give an example, take Ibrandul's petitioners. He was a neutral god but they are now under Shar who is evil. For that matter, in the Dungeon Master's book the Plane of Shadow is neutral but in the Forgotten Realms cosmology it is evil. However, working to the latter and the fact that one goes to the place of your patron god, not simply the most appropriate place in keeping with your alignment, who is considered to be the patron of a deceased god's petitioners?
Gray Richardson 04-10-07, 05:59 PM	why is it that in some Planes the petitioners retain their mortal forms and in others they do not.A petitioner form that appears like your mortal form is the default. This default can be altered by the powers who inhabit a plane. Several planes have thus had their default petitioner form changed to something that better suits the powers who live there. The Seldarine have made the elf form the default for Arvandor. Talona probably chose the vermiform shape of the larva as the base petitioner form for the Barrens of Doom and Despair, as she is a goddess of plagues and pests and plague-bearing insects. Talona is the oldest god in the Barrens--probably the original goddess of disease that originated in the War of Light & Darkness between Selūne and Shar. She probably chose the larval petitioner form way back in the beginning when the plane first formed. The plane of the Blood Rift is thought to have split off from the Barrens in the distant past, so that might explain why its base petitioner form is also the larva. The base petitioner form of the Nine Hells is the Lemure, and the base petitioner form of the Abyss is the manes These forms seem to have been chosen either by the archfiends of those planes or possibly by the semi-sentient planes themselves. There are many planes, however, where the base petitioner form has not been reset, so in most cases a creature just appears in a form similar to what it looked like in life. However, pretty much every plane gives its petitioners some sort of special quality or immunity or resistance specific to the plane. Note that in the Forgotten Realms, pretty much every petitioner is escorted to its final afterlife from the Fugue Plane by an agent of its patron god. It is unclear if the change in its form or qualities is a ritual or effect imposed on it by the agent that takes it on its final journey, or some sort of effect the plane itself imposes on the petitioner upon arrival. It is clear that a patron deity may alter the form and qualities of a petitioner as the god sees fit. A god can ignore the defaults of the plane or divine realm and either allow a petitioner to keep its mortal form or shape it into something entirely different.
Gray Richardson 04-10-07, 06:09 PM	Second, on the last bit about elves and drow, does this mean that drow who end up in Arvandor are transformed back into looking like the original dark elves pre Crown Wars?Probably not. Although, it could be up to one's patron god (or more importantly the DM). Eilistraee wears her drow skin proudly and I don't think she would support the notion that black skin is anything to be ashamed of. If a drow was born that way, he would never have known any different color of skin so would likely keep that skin tone in Arvandor. Perhaps if a soul had been alive before the curse, if his skin tone had originally been that of a dark elf, then he might return to that look in the afterelife. But I doubt there are many still alive to whom that would be an option. Perhaps the odd dark elf baelnorn or the odd elf who had used longevity magic, or possibly a sharn.
Gray Richardson 04-10-07, 06:12 PM	Thirdly, since Eilistraae encouraged her followers to return to the surface world to "Come in peace and live beneath the sun again where the trees and flowers grow" why does she dwell in a realm of perpetual night? Doesn't she like the sun? She may be a moon goddess but then so is Sehanine.Not sure, really. Just her personal preference. She could choose whatever lighting style she likes for her personal divine realm. So since her realm lies in eternal moonlight she must like it that way. Then again, it might not be a matter of preference but rather a symbol of solidarity. Maybe she has pledged to live in darkness until all the drow are returned to the sunlight.
Gray Richardson 04-10-07, 06:35 PM	what happens to their worshipers if they die before another god has taken up the portfolio? Do they get stuck on the Fugue Plane because no one turned up to claim them?Good question. Not necessarily. A god does not usually go in person to the Fugue Plane to collect recently deceased petitioners (except for Null, who always goes in person to collect every new dragon petitioner, roaring fiercely all the way to both herald and warn off any who would interfere with a dragon soul's passing to the afterlife.) A god usually sends an agent, called by some a psychopomp, whose duty it is to escort the soul from the Fugue to the patron's divine realm. If the god were to die, in the absence of any contravening instructions, the agent might very well continue his duties of going to the Fugue Plane to retrieve newly deceased petitioners. A soul could thus very easily be escorted to the divine realm of the deceased god, even after his death. If the agent did not show up to the Fugue to collect the petitioner, he would wait there to be collected. During that time he might be approached by devils trying to persuade him to go to the Nine Hells. There might be the occasional demon raid as well, so if he can avoid being captured by a demon raiding party then he would have to bide his time in the Fugue. Eventually, if no god came, the soul would probably feel a calling to report to Kelemvor's city for judgment. I suppose that Kelemvor could decide to judge the soul as Faithless and put him into the wall, but that seems doubtful. Rather, I think that Kelemvor might suspend his judgment and wait for some successor god to claim the mantle of the deceased one. In which case, the new god could send his agent for the petitioner and collect him once things had been put in order. Kelemvor might put the soul up in the city during the meantime, maybe give him light duties around the city or put him in the care of Kelemvor's own petitioners until such time as a successor god emerges. If no successor were to take up the portfolios or the alias of the dead god, that could be problematic. I suppose that Kelemvor might possibly offer the soul the chance to accept K himself as a patron, in which case the soul would make his afterlife in the city, just like any other petitioner of Kelemvor. Or maybe he would allow an allied god (one allied to the deceased deity) to claim the soul.
Gray Richardson 04-10-07, 06:45 PM	What if another god claims the portfolio but is of a different alignment to them and that god's realm is repellent to them. To give an example, take Ibrandul's petitioners. He was a neutral god but they are now under Shar who is evil. For that matter, in the Dungeon Master's book the Plane of Shadow is neutral but in the Forgotten Realms cosmology it is evil. However, working to the latter and the fact that one goes to the place of your patron god, not simply the most appropriate place in keeping with your alignment, who is considered to be the patron of a deceased god's petitioners?I suppose that a petitioner might be able to simply refuse to go with the agent of a successor god. I am not sure that a petitioner would have the wherewithal to do that, but if he did then he could remain on the Fugue Planel, and would probably be subject to Kelemvor's judgment. In most cases, if an agent of "Ibrandul" shows up and says "come with me, we are going to your afterlife" the soul would probably just fall into line and go with him. The soul would probably not have any queues to tell him that there was a changeover in power in the divine realm. The soul would probably not suspect anything was fishy. If he willingly chose to go off with the agent, then it will probably just be his tough luck if he ends up in Shar's realm instead of Ibrandul's like he was expecting. It may not be fair, but the soul probably doesn't have much control over the situation. If he refuses to accompany the agent of Shar, then he might not be any better off. His fate would then be in the hands of Kelemvor.