Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neely 01-12-08, 04:31 PM	hiya, I got a bit of a weird question and I realise some might think this is stupid, but... Are there DM's here who have experience with a game or campaign that took place before the fall of Netheril? Would you think it's a bad idea to stage a story before that point, knowing that there wasn't the spell casting limitation then? So if anyone could give me advice or tips or creative ways to do this, I'd be more than grateful. Unless, it's complete madnes to attempt or very unwise to do so. In that case also tell me, and save me a disaster. ^^ Thanks!
Lord Karsus 01-12-08, 05:05 PM	-You can download the Netheril: Empire of Magic Box Set here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads). -Anyway, no, I do not think it is a bad idea. Starting a campaign anywhere isn't a bad idea. Not starting a campaign is a bad idea.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-12-08, 08:01 PM	-Anyway, no, I do not think it is a bad idea. Starting a campaign anywhere isn't a bad idea. Not starting a campaign is a bad idea. I was thinking the same thing.:)
Old Sage 01-12-08, 09:03 PM	I'd also recommend a thorough reading of the "Netheril" chapter in Lost Empires of Faerūn, and of Grand History as well, which features updated lore on Netheril, their enslavement of gnomes and the fate of General Matick.
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 01:52 AM	I was thinking the same thing.:) -Great minds think alike, as the saying says.
Kenzuki 01-13-08, 07:11 AM	Also, alot of gods weren't around back then right? So no Tyr, Sune, Mystra (just Mystryl right), Bane, etc. Hrmmmm just when DID these gods appear in the timeline?
Alkasyn 01-13-08, 11:42 AM	Also, alot of gods weren't around back then right? So no Tyr, Sune, Mystra (just Mystryl right), Bane, etc. Hrmmmm just when DID these gods appear in the timeline? Actually, according to the 2e sourcebook, the Netherese had a dozen or so Gods, with Mystryl, Jergal, Amuanator among them. (tahts of the top of my head, the complete sourcebook is aviable for download for free, as Karsus posted)
Kenzuki 01-13-08, 01:32 PM	Actually, according to the 2e sourcebook, the Netherese had a dozen or so Gods, with Mystryl, Jergal, Amuanator among them. (tahts of the top of my head, the complete sourcebook is aviable for download for free, as Karsus posted) Yeah I've got the pdf and the only gods that are listed are: Mystryl, Jergal, Amuanator, Tyche, Janneth (aka Chautea), Moander, Kozah (aka Talos), Selune, Shar, Targus (aka Garagos). Am I missing any? Oh and briefly Karsus! Auppenser was some other god at the time right, by the way is he still alive or is he dead?
Neely 01-13-08, 02:15 PM	-You can download the Netheril: Empire of Magic Box Set here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads). -Anyway, no, I do not think it is a bad idea. Starting a campaign anywhere isn't a bad idea. Not starting a campaign is a bad idea. Thanks for the link, Lord Karsus! I've already read through it diagonally. Once again I was amased by how good that old school stuff is. *wishes more of the current manuals were like that* Do you think I could remove the damage cap on spells without compensating non-spell casters? This would just be for the sake of players picking a non-spell caster wouldn't feel left behind. Perhaps introducing some feats in my game that gives the non-spellcasters some extra edge? Or is this cap removal not such a big issue as I think it is?
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 02:40 PM	Also, alot of gods weren't around back then right? So no Tyr, Sune, Mystra (just Mystryl right), Bane, etc. Hrmmmm just when DID these gods appear in the timeline? -It's not that many of the deities that exist now did not exist then, but they existed in different pantheons. The supplement mentioned above only details the Netherese Pantheon. Do you think I could remove the damage cap on spells without compensating non-spell casters? This would just be for the sake of players picking a non-spell caster wouldn't feel left behind. Perhaps introducing some feats in my game that gives the non-spellcasters some extra edge? Or is this cap removal not such a big issue as I think it is? -Ugh, now you're asking the wrong person. ;)
Kenzuki 01-13-08, 02:50 PM	-It's not that many of the deities that exist now did not exist then, but they existed in different pantheons. The supplement mentioned above only details the Netherese Pantheon. -Ugh, now you're asking the wrong person. ;) Oh ok, that makes sense. I had heard that Tempus was a younger deity who kicked Targus aka Garagos' butt and took his job.
Alkasyn 01-13-08, 03:45 PM	Yeah I've got the pdf and the only gods that are listed are: Mystryl, Jergal, Amuanator, Tyche, Janneth (aka Chautea), Moander, Kozah (aka Talos), Selune, Shar, Targus (aka Garagos). Am I missing any? Oh and briefly Karsus! Auppenser was some other god at the time right, by the way is he still alive or is he dead? Auppenser is the god they worshipped in Jhaamdath,right?? I'd say alive, since it's difficult to kill a God:)
Kenzuki 01-13-08, 03:48 PM	Auppenser is the god they worshipped in Jhaamdath,right?? I'd say alive, since it's difficult to kill a God:) Not really. You just know how to do it. Isn't the only reason he's alive is because Mystra put him into a coma or something?
Lord Karsus 01-13-08, 03:52 PM	You just know how to do it. Isn't the only reason he's alive is because Mystra put him into a coma or something? -His worship base disappeared with the destruction of Jhaamdath (Sp?), so, without any worshippers, he just kinda faded away. The very few who still revere him are what keep him from completely disappearing.
Joneleth 01-16-08, 07:06 AM	Thanks for the link, Lord Karsus! I've already read through it diagonally. Once again I was amased by how good that old school stuff is. *wishes more of the current manuals were like that* Lore wise, certainly. Too bad I have none of the original manuals. I wear glasses and reading books on a computer screen just hurt my eyes too much. hiya, I got a bit of a weird question and I realise some might think this is stupid, but... Are there DM's here who have experience with a game or campaign that took place before the fall of Netheril? Would you think it's a bad idea to stage a story before that point, knowing that there wasn't the spell casting limitation then? So if anyone could give me advice or tips or creative ways to do this, I'd be more than grateful. Unless, it's complete madnes to attempt or very unwise to do so. In that case also tell me, and save me a disaster. ^^ No personal experience no. But it seems an interesting era to set a game in none teh less. I think the important sources have already been mentioned. Are you planning to stage a game in ancient Netheril itself, or just in that timeperiod? Do you think I could remove the damage cap on spells without compensating non-spell casters? This would just be for the sake of players picking a non-spell caster wouldn't feel left behind. Perhaps introducing some feats in my game that gives the non-spellcasters some extra edge? Or is this cap removal not such a big issue as I think it is? That depends on how big an issue you think it is. :P Let me try to tackle the technical part, as the flavour has already mostly been dealt with. I certainly wouldn't overestimate the issue. I'll just sum up a few things, and let you draw your own conclusions, as I don't know at what level you intend to play, or until what level, etc... -Spellcasters will retain the same damage output. A 15th level wizard before the fall of netheril can do at most 15D6 damage with a single spell, just like a 15th level wizard now. -The lower level spells will scale up longer (infinitely even) making it so spellcasters will have their lower level spells to blast with for an equal amount of damage as their higher level spells. -These lower level spells still have a lower save DC. -Removing the cap will only start affecting anything, starting from level 6. -The change will be low from levels 6 through 10, but then scale up fast. Any spellcaster still needs his share of utility spells, so in the end, I think what this change will bring is that spellcasters will tend to not use higher level blasting spells, as lower level spells will deal nearly the same amount. This will leave all their higher level slots open to be filled with utility spells. Will this change game balance? I think not much or not at all. If you plan to compensate fighter types, I would only do this around level 10. As you can see, the effects of removing teh cap only starts at level 6, and from 1-5 spellcasters tend to be underpowered. A possible change this all may bring is that no longer the spellcaster will have to say: "I'm through my usable spells, let's all rest." But that the fighter will have to say: "I'm through my hit points, let's rest." Keep in mind that cure spells will also cure more hit points though. One important thing though. There may be balance issues with some spells when the limits are removed. Some stronger versions of lower level spells may become redundant, and some spells -ray of enfeeblement perhaps- may become too powerful without their limits. I suggest removing the redundant spells. Greater dispel is useless when a normal dispel can attain the same. Such spells will probably have only been researched after the fall of Netheril, because of the cap. You should probably remove spells whose balance gets broken by this as well, or slightly change their level. The spells may in that era not have been invented yet, or perhaps the spell got perfected much later (ie: given its slightly lower level). You'll have to read through a few levels of spells to see if there are many issues. You can always post individual spells if you think some of them get unbalanced.
Lord Karsus 01-16-08, 02:46 PM	Lore wise, certainly. Too bad I have none of the original manuals. I wear glasses and reading books on a computer screen just hurt my eyes too much. -You can always print it, or more economically, portions of it, out.
Neely 01-16-08, 03:45 PM	Thanks Joneleth, that was a very helpful answer *bows deeply with appreciation* The range of playing will be from level 1 to 20. Our group never plays into epic. And I haven't really pinpoint an exact location yet. But I've been thinking somewhere around the Spine of the World. Close to where the Netherese lived.
DMD 01-22-08, 03:38 PM	I ran a time travel adventure using How the Mighty are Fallen as an outline for my game. I thought it was a lot of fun and so did the players. I also mixed in some dungeon adventures as well as my own homebrew ideas. I think with some tweaking that Might are Fallen is very good, my players had some very interesting solutions to the quests in the adventure. The Netheril supplement also gives some interesting adventure hooks if I remember correctly. I would absolutely recommend running a campaign in this setting. I did change the rules for magic which was a bit of a pain and it did favor the spellcasters but since it was not long term it was not a big deal. For a sustained campaign not sure how it would work though. I ran the campaign as Epic and I think doing it that way made it more interesting given that many of the NPC's Arcanists still dwarfed the players in terms of character levels. :) I also ran this adventure in conjunction with the Arcane Age supplement Fall of Myth Drannar. Another excellent product. The way I tied it into the characters past was a lot of fun. It was a geat deal of fun to do historical games in FR and it gives the players incentive to get into the realms history. I also run a Dark Ages Vampire so clearly I love historical gaming.
Ramar Aulinvox 01-24-08, 12:51 PM	I have run pre-fall Netheril campaigns in 2ed and 3.0ed. I love the era a lot. The sourcebooks you want to look for have already been released. I would also recommend several novels, particularly Realms of Shadow and the Netheril trilogy. As for mechanics, this is where you get to play around the edges a little. Options: (1) Classes are the same w/ slight modification. In this system you would still have to prepair spells but certain feats would be incorporated into the class. I would include arcane preperation as a sorcerer feat and the feat from LEoF that allowed one to break down higher level spells into individual spell slots (arcane manipulation?). Level dependant variables may or may not be removed. (2) Classes exist but use the spellpoint option from Unearthed Arcana. This helps to balance the system a lot. Wizards still have to memorize spells but they get more flexibility in what to cast. You can remove the damage caps without worry b/c you still have to spend spellpoints to get the desired damage level. (3) Convert spell slots into arcs/winds. Under this method you add up the total number of spell levels that the caster would be able to cast (including bonus spells) and that gives you your number of spell levels one can cast per day. This is the closest to the old system. Damage caps can exist or not since casters still get the increased flexibility. (4) I will have to look, but I remember someone did an excellent write-up for a 3.0 arcanist that replaced the wizard and sorcerer into one class. I believe the writeup used the spell level option (#3). Once again, damage caps are still optional. In dealing with damage caps: (1) some spells become over powerful (i.e. ray of enfeeblement); however, making it have a saving throw to negate it (i.e. 3.0 version) helps to minimize this. Other higher level versions should remain b/c they usually do something different (and the DC is higher). Ex. delayed blast fireball can be delayed, chain lightning strikes several targets in an irregular pattern, and greater dispel magic can remove conditions that a regular dispel magic can't touch. Are these worth using the higher level slot? Depends on which magic system you use. (2) Another way to deal with problematic spells is to set the time of your campaign. If the spell hasn't been invented, then there is no problem. The spell might not be common knowledge either; requiring that one do a mission or campaign to get it. Balancing Classes: (1) As was mentioned earlier, this isn't really a problem until 6th or even tenth level. So depending upon what rules you will use for your campaign will determine any balancing issues. (2) If you choose to use a system that puts the game out of balance, you can compensate non-spellcasting classes by giving them bonus feats at higher levels (make it a class ability to deal with multiclass problems). Another option would be to incorporate other combat oriented classes that are overpowered but would balance out these other high power caster classes (I would suggest Iron Heroes by Malhavoc Press). Another option would be to utilized combat manuevers or rituals from Arcana Evolved (also from Malhavoc Press). These can all be fun. My campaigns were mostly timetravel campaigns at high level, so uber powerful casters were a part of the appeal [i used magic option #3 and both recommendations for spells; non-caster classes were already balanced out through generous gifts of magic items]. My few "native" campaigns were pretty fun too. The disparity didn't really come out until after 10th level but I severly limited spells (except for those the pc's invented) to help with this [pc's had to develop their own ways to travel quickly since teleport didn't exist for the first 600 years or so]. I hope this was helpful.
Neely 01-29-08, 05:56 PM	That was a very helpful answer Ramar Aulinvox, thank you. And thank you,DMD, too for you reply ^^
Ramar Aulinvox 01-30-08, 01:34 AM	Here is a link to another thread dealing with running an adventure in Netheril. Included are a number of the spells that the pcs and I developed. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=285584
Neely 01-30-08, 03:36 PM	Thank you Ramar, it's good to see more people are interested in playing in this era ^^
DMD 02-06-08, 03:00 PM	Actually thinking about it a fascinating campaign would be to have the characters be elves (or other races who get access to longevity magic) and move through different timepoints in Faerunian history. Having them start as young elves and move up the ladder of prestige having families and children would be great. This way the players can actually try to effect canon history and get a better sesne of how the campaign world has evolved over time. (That is essentially how I have run my Dark Age Vampire games. :) )
Lord Karsus 02-06-08, 03:03 PM	Actually thinking about it a fascinating campaign would be to have the characters be elves (or other races who get access to longevity magic) and move through different timepoints in Faerunian history. Having them start as young elves and move up the ladder of prestige having families and children would be great. This way the players can actually try to effect canon history and get a better sesne of how the campaign world has evolved over time. (That is essentially how I have run my Dark Age Vampire games. :) ) -There are various feats in DRAGON 351 (I believe...The Modron issue) about ways to utilize an extremely, long-lived character. Such a concept seems like it would fit here. For example, they have 'options/ideas' such as characters who was cursed with immortality, and as such, as lived for extreme amounts of time, or characters who 'time-travel', and so on...
GoldDragon 02-07-08, 11:36 PM	hiya, I got a bit of a weird question and I realise some might think this is stupid, but... There are no stupid questions if you don't know the Answer before hand Are there DM's here who have experience with a game or campaign that took place before the fall of Netheril?[ Not a DM, Dont play pen and Paper D&D but do play Computer Games, Neverwinter Nights as of late, and there is a Fan Based game in the NWN community called "The Nether Scrolls" were you play the hero in cahoots with a demon and a Celestial that wnats you to steal parts of the Nether Scrolls and replace it with a fake once so "what's his face" can't succesfully upsurp Mystra (the fake additions/alterations makes the Avatar Spell screw up) :evillaugh Would you think it's a bad idea to stage a story before that point, knowing that there wasn't the spell casting limitation then? No. Though I have never played pen and paper D&D I am in the habbit of making histories and Biographies for my computer game PCs. One of them actually was born 500 years before the rise of the Nethril Empire, fell into a Dragon Horde, found a bunch of "wierd blue glowing potions", was thirsty, Drank the potion and then woke up in the mist of the Nethril Empire (un-aged), used the potions cause of the "craving" and when they finally ran out 500 years later there was a painful "withdraw period' but no aging and no other "side effect" then a slight bluish glow to the eyes. (And still considers self a Nethrillian as a 66th level mage capable of bypassing the "circut breaker" that is Mystra when needed via 'Alienist" and "Mystic" means that makes "weave Magic" feeble in comparision) So if anyone could give me advice or tips or creative ways to do this, I'd be more than grateful. Either find the Spell that can take the party back to Nethril Empire Times or find a device that will do the same. Understand that getting on one of the floating cities or Enclave is hard as the main reason they exist is to provide safety from the Barbarian and Orc Raiders below, and once in the Enclave or City it is as Boring as can be cause there is no "Adventure" in such a well policed, well guarded, and relatively like minded place. There are areas that can be visited on the Ground that might have need for adventurers in helping against the barbarian and Orc Raiders...though you can do that anyway in the present. Unless, it's complete madnes to attempt or very unwise to do so. In that case also tell me, and save me a disaster. ^^ Thanks! Well, no. But the point of going back in time to check out Nethril is more one of "checking out the cool stuff" rather then adventure as everybody is either powerful or protected by the powerful so except for a few raiders raiding the fields below, there isn't much difference to make via adventureing back then I mean, the Life Draining Magic can't be stopped, A lot of the Empires that fought with or were friends with Nethril are also gone so their skirmishes in the battle field makes little difference, and if you tell anyone about flying Sushi Cone Shaped dudes trying to destroy the Empire they will think you mad and lock you up and throw the key. Best thing I can think of is that a Sage or Mage that needs to complete research on a New or ancient Spell (Like "Vopal") can go back in time and research the spell proper in the origina Liabrary. Maybe completing errands and quests of the Liabrary's patrons to earn the right to research.
Ramar Aulinvox 02-12-08, 10:33 AM	Actually thinking about it a fascinating campaign would be to have the characters be elves (or other races who get access to longevity magic) and move through different timepoints in Faerunian history. Having them start as young elves and move up the ladder of prestige having families and children would be great. This way the players can actually try to effect canon history and get a better sesne of how the campaign world has evolved over time. (That is essentially how I have run my Dark Age Vampire games. :) ) It's funny that you mention Vampire: the Dark Ages because Tel'sara (one of the spell crafters in my other post and a pc) is a vampire lord from the Golden Age of Netheril [current where abouts unknown]. I ended up using the rules for vampires in Greenronin's Guide to Vampires for her [gets the level adjustment down to +2 from +8].