Post/Author/DateTime	Post
kevthedm 06-12-07, 12:21 PM	Can anyone give a circumstance that would allow a character to contest the validity of a Faustian Contract and win? I had a crazy idea of a contract becoming null and void if a character could prove that said contract endangered the harmony of the Pact Primeval in some way. I don't think Asmodeus would allow it. Any other ideas out there?
Snarkbone 06-12-07, 12:27 PM	The contracts themselves are not explicitly defined in the sources, so if you (or the DM, if that's not you) allows a contract to be made that has a logical flaw in it, a character can get out. FC:II specifies the appeals court in Hell for that purpose. You can have any flaw you want this way.
XHereticX 06-12-07, 08:13 PM	Well, as long as Asmodeus himself didn't draft it, you actually have a decent chance of exploiting loopholes if you are clever enough.
MerrikCale 06-12-07, 09:56 PM	Can anyone give a circumstance that would allow a character to contest the validity of a Faustian Contract and win? If he had his fingers crossed
Karsus the Mad 06-13-07, 08:08 AM	Can anyone give a circumstance that would allow a character to contest the validity of a Faustian Contract and win? I had a crazy idea of a contract becoming null and void if a character could prove that said contract endangered the harmony of the Pact Primeval in some way. I don't think Asmodeus would allow it. Any other ideas out there? He didn't sign his true name?
Micheal_Roele 06-13-07, 11:56 AM	There is a "Court of Appeals" in the 4th Layer of Hell, but you have to know to appeal there in order to get one. FC II mentions a couple of suggested items that are considered in the appeal. 1. Did the Devil deliver the promised benefits of the pact? If no, then you win the appeal. 2. Was the person force to sign a Faustian pact by magical coercion? If yes, then you win the appeal. It is possible to win the appeal, but still be damned by the court, due to corruption points or Lawful Evil acts commited after the pact is signed. Voiding the pact doesn't void any sins committed. As the book says "...much Diabolical Laughter then ensues.." That would be an exceptional basis to win an appeal on the basis that is jeopardizes the Pact Primeval. Asmodeus has that copy well guarded in Nessus, and it is written to pretty much benefit himself, and not the deities. The Devils get to corrupt and damn souls, use them as they see fit, and don't have much downside. The only thing to jeopardize that would be to physically destroy his copy. That is next to impossible. The appeals process is in there to adjudicate if a soul deserves to be damned. If you use corruption points, or if the alignment is Lawful Evil (which if you make a faustian pact it changed to that), you are damned anyways. The only way to get out of it is to redeem yourself before you die, and perform atonement for the evil deed. The book suggest this be hard, and it invovled giving up all benefits gained from the pact. Unfortunately, Devils often engineer the death of mortal before they get to do this, as they don't want to lose the soul. The crossed fingers method might work....that or sell your soul to Lovitar, but you'dreally get the same outcome...alot of pain...:)
kevthedm 06-13-07, 12:40 PM	That would be an exceptional basis to win an appeal on the basis that is jeopardizes the Pact Primeval. Asmodeus has that copy well guarded in Nessus, and it is written to pretty much benefit himself, and not the deities. The Devils get to corrupt and damn souls, use them as they see fit, and don't have much downside. The only thing to jeopardize that would be to physically destroy his copy. That is next to impossible. Interesting. Could the agreement between Asmodeus and the other Gods be threatened if, say, Levistus was to somehow break free from his icy prison and break through to the Material Plane and wreak havoc? Would the Gods of Law see that as a breech of contract? I'm not 100% familiar with the Pact Primeval so I apologize upfront if this is a stupid question. And thanks to everyone for posting in this thread so far! :devil:
Micheal_Roele 06-13-07, 01:19 PM	Interesting. Could the agreement between Asmodeus and the other Gods be threatened if, say, Levistus was to somehow break free from his icy prison and break through to the Material Plane and wreak havoc? Would the Gods of Law see that as a breech of contract? I'm not 100% familiar with the Pact Primeval so I apologize upfront if this is a stupid question. And thanks to everyone for posting in this thread so far! :devil: Levistus though it seems is spiteful enough to do anything, but him breaking free won't affect the pact. Now if he attempted to steal the pact... It mentions something in the book about a copy resides in Nessus, on Nirvana, and in the Seven Heavens. If these copies were destroyed, Law might possibly be in dire straights and suffer a calamity at the hands of Chaos. If Asmodeus' copy only was destroyed, and the Gods of Law turned on him, told him he could no longer harvest souls, it would accelerate his plans mentioned in FC II for the Apoclypse and Final Battle with the Upper Planes. He would likely stop fighting the demons immediately, and go ally with them for a time, let them rampage on the universe, then you would have an Apocolypse of Good vs. Evil. You would have quite a few gods, angels, demons, devils, etc. die in such a struggle. Asmodeus would wait until Good was defeated to resume soul Harvesting, and then turn on the Demons.
XHereticX 06-13-07, 07:20 PM	Hmm, yeah, that is bascically how I interpreted the events of FC 2. Except, how will this play out in FR?