Problems with Tempus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Problems with Tempus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
customdrapery
03-19-07, 11:55 AM Does anyone else have problems with Tempus? My problem with him is his Chaotic nature. What really does he do besides profit from wars. He's chaotic, yet he wants war to be all about honor and orderly conduct, which seems more lawful. Plus, the Red Knight was split off from a faction within his church, how was there a lawful section within his church?

I'm hoping that Lathander and Tyr team up on him during whatever Lathander is trying to plan. I think Red Knight would fit a with Tyr a lot better and Tyr would make a good deity of Good Warriors and give the evil warriors to Garagos.

Maybe this is all coming from the fact that Tempus hasn't been as fleshed out as some of the other deities.
creepy drifter
03-19-07, 12:23 PM As you know, warfare is a constant on Faerun. And those who fight the wars, the millions of soldiers, are all aware of Tempus and his immense loyalty to benefitting those who fight honorably and tirelessly. As a result, his popularity is **HUGE** amongst the soldier demographic of Faerun.

The various populaces of Faerun who are even remotely knowledgeable about his religious tenets and dogma, know that he espouses that warriors who fight in wars should avoid such craven tricks as destroying homes, family, livestock, etc. As a result of this, people who know that war is inevitable, praise Tempus for his advocation of keeping the fighting on the battlefield and promoting the avoidance of collateral damage.

That latter tenet gains him popularity and praise amongst the demographic of those who aren't warriors. Hence his greater god status.
The Ubbergeek
03-19-07, 08:05 PM About his Chaotic side...

You can plan and think as much as you want before... the actual battle is a chaotic thing. Furror, passion...
Stigger
03-20-07, 12:57 AM No plan survives contact with the enemy intact... fog of war... that sort of thing is what tempus is... along with the millions of reasons for people going to war in the first place. He's not much choice but to be chaotic given the nature of his portfolio.
customdrapery
03-20-07, 11:15 AM Oh, I agree that battle is chaotic, etc. I just feel that Tempus actually behaves slightly more lawful than I would expect from Chaotic Neutral. Maybe he has the Lawful Red Knight to balance himself out?

Do you think that anything that Lathander has in mind will involve creating a new Good-aligned God of War? I can see him teaming up with either Tyr or Anhur, which would be more obvious choices for allies than Tempus.
The Ubbergeek
03-20-07, 11:21 AM Let us not forget the problem of that pesky 'competitor' - Garagos; Tempus probabbly look sane because of a sort of divine resonance. Garagos is the batcrap side of it....
Stigger
03-21-07, 12:56 AM I should think Lathander would be more in favor of doing away with war entirely in his New Dawn plan... or whatever it's officially called. As to his behavior... I'm not much into a lot of the novels out there, so I couldn't really say, but I wonder if stoicism is being confused with lawfulness there. The impression I've always been left with for him was one of a very taciturn, stoic fellow who thinks along the lines of actions being preferable to words.
WagnerSika
03-22-07, 09:13 AM I have always wondered how Tempurans maintain the army-like organization of their clergy, if they are all chaotic neutral. Everything about chaotic neutral screams against strict military organization.
helicopter
03-22-07, 10:20 AM I have always wondered how Tempurans maintain the army-like organization of their clergy, if they are all chaotic neutral. Everything about chaotic neutral screams against strict military organization.
The clergy make up for their "orderly" hierarchy and militaristic structuring by being *ultra* Chaotic Neutral on the battlefield. :D
Stigger
03-22-07, 12:40 PM I think in the case of Tempus' followers, the CN part of their alignment manifests more as a willingness to help any side in a battle rather than some haphazard lifestyle and behavior one usually associates with the alignment.
Eric888
03-22-07, 04:45 PM honor meens different things, and its not always lawful. most barbarians are chaotic but most still have a code of honor.

Tempus has no ambition or desire for social order. he's just balls to the wall crazy about people fighting and dying on a bloodsoaked battlefield. war is chaotic..ergo...tempus is chaotic. simple as that.
Faraer
03-22-07, 06:32 PM Tempus is one of those gods which doesn't fit neatly into the alignment scheme. If you read his dogma in Faiths & Avatars (which I helpfully link to (http://paizo.com/store/brand/forgottenRealms/roleplayingGames/2ndEdition/v5748btpy7mkq) in my continuing unpaid advertising campaign for Paizo), it isn't strongly lawful or chaotic. His overall nature, seen in alignment terms, just happens to tip just into the CN ninth of the graph. Thus, he has followers (and according to F&A, which I trust over Faiths and Pantheons, clerics) of most alignments.

Upshot: don't take the gods' listed alignments too seriously.
Khaelieth
03-22-07, 08:53 PM and chaotic doesn't mean unloyal;)
Stigger
03-23-07, 12:24 AM Nope, just flexible about how things are accomplished... which suits Tempus perfectly. As does the neutrality in not taking sides (or taking both sides often alternatively) in most instances.
Burningspear
03-23-07, 12:31 AM Let us not forget the problem of that pesky 'competitor' - Garagos; Tempus probabbly look sane because of a sort of divine resonance. Garagos is the batcrap side of it....

Garagos aka Targus was THE god of war before that crappy no good Tempus trodded along and ruined his day, that is why Garagos has sunken into his own berserk rage.

All hail Garagos (Targus in the days of the Netheril empire), Lord of singular unfettered, no holds barred, 1 on 1 combat. (or at least should be :plotting: )
Stigger
03-23-07, 12:43 AM Well, if he was that great, he'd still be on top. Evolve, or die. ;)
Khaelieth
03-23-07, 04:48 AM Survival of the fittest! That's why in the end there'll only be Sun Elves left (And possibly drow) eventually.
The_Shaman
03-25-07, 08:35 AM We may disagree.

BTW, Tempus is not exactly approving of the "all's fair" dogma. His teachings are very strongly against some of the dirtier tricks in warfare such as iirc poisoning and the like.
The Ubbergeek
03-25-07, 11:01 AM And he have a strange respect for the goddess of peace, Eldath - he forbid that his followers hurt hers.

He know that war can not exist without peace, and vice versa. Maybe Eldath is a calming counterpoint, a balance...
bondious
03-26-07, 01:36 AM I've always thought of Tempus as being True Neutral. To me, war is almost a force of nature, and fortune in war favors no side exclusively. Good guys win and bad guys do as well. You have the orderly force (example: the Romans) against a more disorderly force (example: barbarians), and when they fight the outcome is never certain.

War favors all sides, at some point or another, and so to does Tempus.
Azar_of_Faerun
03-26-07, 04:16 AM Tempus, now he could handle Ares and Kord fairly easily, but I am not sure about Thor... :confused:
The Ubbergeek
03-26-07, 11:29 AM I've always thought of Tempus as being True Neutral. To me, war is almost a force of nature, and fortune in war favors no side exclusively. Good guys win and bad guys do as well. You have the orderly force (example: the Romans) against a more disorderly force (example: barbarians), and when they fight the outcome is never certain.

War favors all sides, at some point or another, and so to does Tempus.

But again, war is a very chaotic thing, it's not stable.
customdrapery
03-26-07, 11:39 AM I think the intent was just as was put, War is neutral, favoring all sides equally, but the nature of war is chaotic, which is where Tempus was put on the alignment scale.

I tend to look at him as much more neutral than chaotic.
Khaelieth
03-26-07, 12:09 PM His clergy can probably cooperate, chaos doesn't mean they're against cooperation, just against laws. And all know war is chaotic, with allies bombing each other and such.
bitter thorn
03-26-07, 11:23 PM I think the intent was just as was put, War is neutral, favoring all sides equally, but the nature of war is chaotic, which is where Tempus was put on the alignment scale.

I tend to look at him as much more neutral than chaotic.

Do clerics of Tempus get an exception to the 2 step alignment rule?
customdrapery
03-27-07, 06:04 PM Not to the best of my knowledge, clerics still are CG, CN, CE, I just think that Tempus himself emphasizes the Neutral part of war over the chaotic part.
Book
03-27-07, 06:30 PM Not to the best of my knowledge, clerics still are CG, CN, CE, I just think that Tempus himself emphasizes the Neutral part of war over the chaotic part.A deity's dogma does not always neccesarily apply to the actual hierarchy and administrative structuring of his/her church and clergy infrastructure.

I've seen similar alignment issues come about in descriptions of how Cyric, Lathander, and Mielikki run their clergy setup.
RedGlacier
03-28-07, 09:27 AM Do clerics of Tempus get an exception to the 2 step alignment rule?

No, but that's only in 3rd edition.
In 2e, they could be of any alignment except true neutral.
Sigh...:( FR Clergy alignments made so much more sense back then...
Stormbrand
03-28-07, 07:55 PM honor meens different things, and its not always lawful. most barbarians are chaotic but most still have a code of honor.

Tempus has no ambition or desire for social order. he's just balls to the wall crazy about people fighting and dying on a bloodsoaked battlefield. war is chaotic..ergo...tempus is chaotic. simple as that.

Kind of - Tempus is about war, honest bloodshed on the field of battle. No murder or pillage, but Tempus simply does not care for the reasons behind war - he favours war and battle itself without concern for driving cause.

Battle as an end to itself is chaotic. Also battle is fickle.
Selgaunt
04-03-07, 03:57 PM Kind of - Tempus is about war, honest bloodshed on the field of battle. No murder or pillage, but Tempus simply does not care for the reasons behind war - he favours war and battle itself without concern for driving cause.

Battle as an end to itself is chaotic. Also battle is fickle.

Exactly. Tempus is perfect in my opinon. Nothing about him, his portfolio or his alignment should be changed!
bloodtalon
04-04-07, 08:46 AM And he have a strange respect for the goddess of peace, Eldath - he forbid that his followers hurt hers.

He know that war can not exist without peace, and vice versa. Maybe Eldath is a calming counterpoint, a balance...

what about this whith Eldath
she might be his way ward daughter who turned her back on the family trade and that she and the Red Knight are sisters that is why Tempus looks after her not likeing her choice but still has the fatherly protective spirit for her

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
customdrapery 03-19-07, 11:55 AM	Does anyone else have problems with Tempus? My problem with him is his Chaotic nature. What really does he do besides profit from wars. He's chaotic, yet he wants war to be all about honor and orderly conduct, which seems more lawful. Plus, the Red Knight was split off from a faction within his church, how was there a lawful section within his church? I'm hoping that Lathander and Tyr team up on him during whatever Lathander is trying to plan. I think Red Knight would fit a with Tyr a lot better and Tyr would make a good deity of Good Warriors and give the evil warriors to Garagos. Maybe this is all coming from the fact that Tempus hasn't been as fleshed out as some of the other deities.
creepy drifter 03-19-07, 12:23 PM	As you know, warfare is a constant on Faerun. And those who fight the wars, the millions of soldiers, are all aware of Tempus and his immense loyalty to benefitting those who fight honorably and tirelessly. As a result, his popularity is HUGE amongst the soldier demographic of Faerun. The various populaces of Faerun who are even remotely knowledgeable about his religious tenets and dogma, know that he espouses that warriors who fight in wars should avoid such craven tricks as destroying homes, family, livestock, etc. As a result of this, people who know that war is inevitable, praise Tempus for his advocation of keeping the fighting on the battlefield and promoting the avoidance of collateral damage. That latter tenet gains him popularity and praise amongst the demographic of those who aren't warriors. Hence his greater god status.
The Ubbergeek 03-19-07, 08:05 PM	About his Chaotic side... You can plan and think as much as you want before... the actual battle is a chaotic thing. Furror, passion...
Stigger 03-20-07, 12:57 AM	No plan survives contact with the enemy intact... fog of war... that sort of thing is what tempus is... along with the millions of reasons for people going to war in the first place. He's not much choice but to be chaotic given the nature of his portfolio.
customdrapery 03-20-07, 11:15 AM	Oh, I agree that battle is chaotic, etc. I just feel that Tempus actually behaves slightly more lawful than I would expect from Chaotic Neutral. Maybe he has the Lawful Red Knight to balance himself out? Do you think that anything that Lathander has in mind will involve creating a new Good-aligned God of War? I can see him teaming up with either Tyr or Anhur, which would be more obvious choices for allies than Tempus.
The Ubbergeek 03-20-07, 11:21 AM	Let us not forget the problem of that pesky 'competitor' - Garagos; Tempus probabbly look sane because of a sort of divine resonance. Garagos is the batcrap side of it....
Stigger 03-21-07, 12:56 AM	I should think Lathander would be more in favor of doing away with war entirely in his New Dawn plan... or whatever it's officially called. As to his behavior... I'm not much into a lot of the novels out there, so I couldn't really say, but I wonder if stoicism is being confused with lawfulness there. The impression I've always been left with for him was one of a very taciturn, stoic fellow who thinks along the lines of actions being preferable to words.
WagnerSika 03-22-07, 09:13 AM	I have always wondered how Tempurans maintain the army-like organization of their clergy, if they are all chaotic neutral. Everything about chaotic neutral screams against strict military organization.
helicopter 03-22-07, 10:20 AM	I have always wondered how Tempurans maintain the army-like organization of their clergy, if they are all chaotic neutral. Everything about chaotic neutral screams against strict military organization. The clergy make up for their "orderly" hierarchy and militaristic structuring by being ultra Chaotic Neutral on the battlefield. :D
Stigger 03-22-07, 12:40 PM	I think in the case of Tempus' followers, the CN part of their alignment manifests more as a willingness to help any side in a battle rather than some haphazard lifestyle and behavior one usually associates with the alignment.
Eric888 03-22-07, 04:45 PM	honor meens different things, and its not always lawful. most barbarians are chaotic but most still have a code of honor. Tempus has no ambition or desire for social order. he's just balls to the wall crazy about people fighting and dying on a bloodsoaked battlefield. war is chaotic..ergo...tempus is chaotic. simple as that.
Faraer 03-22-07, 06:32 PM	Tempus is one of those gods which doesn't fit neatly into the alignment scheme. If you read his dogma in Faiths & Avatars (which I helpfully link to (http://paizo.com/store/brand/forgottenRealms/roleplayingGames/2ndEdition/v5748btpy7mkq) in my continuing unpaid advertising campaign for Paizo), it isn't strongly lawful or chaotic. His overall nature, seen in alignment terms, just happens to tip just into the CN ninth of the graph. Thus, he has followers (and according to F&A, which I trust over Faiths and Pantheons, clerics) of most alignments. Upshot: don't take the gods' listed alignments too seriously.
Khaelieth 03-22-07, 08:53 PM	and chaotic doesn't mean unloyal;)
Stigger 03-23-07, 12:24 AM	Nope, just flexible about how things are accomplished... which suits Tempus perfectly. As does the neutrality in not taking sides (or taking both sides often alternatively) in most instances.
Burningspear 03-23-07, 12:31 AM	Let us not forget the problem of that pesky 'competitor' - Garagos; Tempus probabbly look sane because of a sort of divine resonance. Garagos is the batcrap side of it.... Garagos aka Targus was THE god of war before that crappy no good Tempus trodded along and ruined his day, that is why Garagos has sunken into his own berserk rage. All hail Garagos (Targus in the days of the Netheril empire), Lord of singular unfettered, no holds barred, 1 on 1 combat. (or at least should be :plotting: )
Stigger 03-23-07, 12:43 AM	Well, if he was that great, he'd still be on top. Evolve, or die. ;)
Khaelieth 03-23-07, 04:48 AM	Survival of the fittest! That's why in the end there'll only be Sun Elves left (And possibly drow) eventually.
The_Shaman 03-25-07, 08:35 AM	We may disagree. BTW, Tempus is not exactly approving of the "all's fair" dogma. His teachings are very strongly against some of the dirtier tricks in warfare such as iirc poisoning and the like.
The Ubbergeek 03-25-07, 11:01 AM	And he have a strange respect for the goddess of peace, Eldath - he forbid that his followers hurt hers. He know that war can not exist without peace, and vice versa. Maybe Eldath is a calming counterpoint, a balance...
bondious 03-26-07, 01:36 AM	I've always thought of Tempus as being True Neutral. To me, war is almost a force of nature, and fortune in war favors no side exclusively. Good guys win and bad guys do as well. You have the orderly force (example: the Romans) against a more disorderly force (example: barbarians), and when they fight the outcome is never certain. War favors all sides, at some point or another, and so to does Tempus.
Azar_of_Faerun 03-26-07, 04:16 AM	Tempus, now he could handle Ares and Kord fairly easily, but I am not sure about Thor... :confused:
The Ubbergeek 03-26-07, 11:29 AM	I've always thought of Tempus as being True Neutral. To me, war is almost a force of nature, and fortune in war favors no side exclusively. Good guys win and bad guys do as well. You have the orderly force (example: the Romans) against a more disorderly force (example: barbarians), and when they fight the outcome is never certain. War favors all sides, at some point or another, and so to does Tempus. But again, war is a very chaotic thing, it's not stable.
customdrapery 03-26-07, 11:39 AM	I think the intent was just as was put, War is neutral, favoring all sides equally, but the nature of war is chaotic, which is where Tempus was put on the alignment scale. I tend to look at him as much more neutral than chaotic.
Khaelieth 03-26-07, 12:09 PM	His clergy can probably cooperate, chaos doesn't mean they're against cooperation, just against laws. And all know war is chaotic, with allies bombing each other and such.
bitter thorn 03-26-07, 11:23 PM	I think the intent was just as was put, War is neutral, favoring all sides equally, but the nature of war is chaotic, which is where Tempus was put on the alignment scale. I tend to look at him as much more neutral than chaotic. Do clerics of Tempus get an exception to the 2 step alignment rule?
customdrapery 03-27-07, 06:04 PM	Not to the best of my knowledge, clerics still are CG, CN, CE, I just think that Tempus himself emphasizes the Neutral part of war over the chaotic part.
Book 03-27-07, 06:30 PM	Not to the best of my knowledge, clerics still are CG, CN, CE, I just think that Tempus himself emphasizes the Neutral part of war over the chaotic part.A deity's dogma does not always neccesarily apply to the actual hierarchy and administrative structuring of his/her church and clergy infrastructure. I've seen similar alignment issues come about in descriptions of how Cyric, Lathander, and Mielikki run their clergy setup.
RedGlacier 03-28-07, 09:27 AM	Do clerics of Tempus get an exception to the 2 step alignment rule? No, but that's only in 3rd edition. In 2e, they could be of any alignment except true neutral. Sigh...:( FR Clergy alignments made so much more sense back then...
Stormbrand 03-28-07, 07:55 PM	honor meens different things, and its not always lawful. most barbarians are chaotic but most still have a code of honor. Tempus has no ambition or desire for social order. he's just balls to the wall crazy about people fighting and dying on a bloodsoaked battlefield. war is chaotic..ergo...tempus is chaotic. simple as that. Kind of - Tempus is about war, honest bloodshed on the field of battle. No murder or pillage, but Tempus simply does not care for the reasons behind war - he favours war and battle itself without concern for driving cause. Battle as an end to itself is chaotic. Also battle is fickle.
Selgaunt 04-03-07, 03:57 PM	Kind of - Tempus is about war, honest bloodshed on the field of battle. No murder or pillage, but Tempus simply does not care for the reasons behind war - he favours war and battle itself without concern for driving cause. Battle as an end to itself is chaotic. Also battle is fickle. Exactly. Tempus is perfect in my opinon. Nothing about him, his portfolio or his alignment should be changed!
bloodtalon 04-04-07, 08:46 AM	And he have a strange respect for the goddess of peace, Eldath - he forbid that his followers hurt hers. He know that war can not exist without peace, and vice versa. Maybe Eldath is a calming counterpoint, a balance... what about this whith Eldath she might be his way ward daughter who turned her back on the family trade and that she and the Red Knight are sisters that is why Tempus looks after her not likeing her choice but still has the fatherly protective spirit for her