Post/Author/DateTime	Post
runestar 03-08-07, 09:40 AM	In theory, couldn't the dragons just have cast mindblank on themselves to stave off the effects of the dracorage, seeing as to how dracoliches are immune to it for that reason?:P Just wondering, ever since I saw the writeup for the dracorage mythal spell in races of dragon...
Krash 03-08-07, 09:36 PM	Does mind blank work against epic spells? -- George Krashos
runestar 03-09-07, 12:52 AM	Epic spells are different only that they have a chance of being cast in an AMF. Considering that a humble low lv spell can counteract the effects of the dracorage(abate dracorage from dragons of faerun), I don't see why a 8th lv spell can't... And I see nothing in the epic spell desc which suggests that it can penetrate a mindblank... I know, I know...plot hooks and stuff...but still...:P
Derren S. 03-09-07, 04:38 AM	They could. Or they could research/find the King Killer Shield epic spell which their close, good aligned, allies have invented and probably still know so that they could create sanctuaries. They also could have searched for that mythal for thousands of years and do something against it. The problem is that before the Rage books, the rage was not supposed to be a mythal and thus the dragons never did anything to protect themself against it or to stop it. Now the rage got changed into a magical effect but the whole history does not make any sense. Obviously mind blank has not because of story reasons but that is hardly an evidence as spells like raise dead do not seem to exist in the "novel world" and many authors don't care about D&D rules. Rules wise you can argue that mind blank does not work because dracolichs are not immune to the dracorage because of their undead traits but because their type changed to undead so that they aren't a target of the spell anymore.
TomCosta 03-09-07, 03:28 PM	Lest we forget, mind blank is a high level spell that most dragons can't cast and it would require that the dragon choose it as one of their spell slots, which given a dragon's high saves and SR, they most likely would not.....
Derren S. 03-09-07, 03:30 PM	When mind blank protects against the rage you can bet that every dragon would take it. And there are enough dragons who could cast the spell and make scrolls for the others. Or teh dragon can simply get the mind blank from another source. You can bet that a lot of cities would value a sane dragon in their area which can help to fend of the dragons who do rage.
GothicDan 03-09-07, 03:30 PM	Mr. Costa... I'm infinitely happy that you managed to meld together lore and mechanics, there. That's what I personally like to see. :) Ahem. *Steps out.*
Alac Luin 03-09-07, 09:17 PM	The issue with Mind Blank, along with it's high level is it's limited duration. Typically, 24 hours is a sufficient time period to protect from most mind affecting effects. A brand new Mind Blank would need to be cast EACH AND EVERY DAY at the EXACT TIME each day to completely be shielded. So, this would get very expensive for the dragons that needed to produce or buy an 8th level scroll each day for an effect that lasted months. Also take into account that they had no idea how long this would effect them. This would have drained dragon hoards all over Faerun just to get the ingredients for the ink. It would have been unwise to risk even a few minutes leeway in this. If one dragon put off recasting of a new mind blank spell, even by accident, it was unknown if they would fall under the influence completely of the rage. NOTE: I only read book one in this series, so I might not have a complete grasp of the situation.
TomCosta 03-12-07, 02:28 PM	There are other role playing problems with mind blank. In addition to the idea that few dragons have the caster level to cast mind blank and few would have taken it because it eats up a high level slot that is probably well covered by their high SR and Will saves, it also presumes that dragons, generally solitary creatures not known for sharing (even the good ones) would all (a) know that mind blank would help and (b) help each other out. I just don't see enough mind blanks to go around. That said, I wish I had tweaked the spell a bit to account for mind blank better, but I'm still not sure its necessary.
Derren S. 03-12-07, 02:33 PM	double post
Derren S. 03-12-07, 02:36 PM	Have you read the rage books? Do you remember the big dragon meeting in the beginning where all dragons discuss how to survive the rage? How the dragons cooperate to keep their sanctuaries safe and how later the dragons share the abate dracorage spell with each other? How is sharing this spell different than sharing mind blank? And as I said, when mind blank does work against the rage every dragon would have it. And even the draconomicon paints a very different picture of draconic society than the solitary, wants nothing to do with each other dragons. A blue dragon suzerain who is able to cast this spell would use it as sign of rulerships over the other dragons. Gold dragons live in a (loose) monarchy and not as solitary dragons. Silver dragons have their family clans which aid each other. And bronze dragons are generally rather close knit. Its also not a question of protecting all dragons. Even when only the majority of dragons could protect themself from it the rage loses its theet.
TomCosta 03-12-07, 02:52 PM	I did read the books, not every dragon showed up for the pow wow (even if a goodly many did), in the end relatively few good dragons fell victim to the rage, and it still doesn't change the fact that mind blank is too powerful for most dragons to cast or cast frequently. I also would see mind blank as a very rare spell among dragons, unlike humans, because of its relatively low usefulness. Moreover, presumably, the rules for dragons replacing sorcerer spells are the same as though for sorcerers, requiring them to gain a level in sorcerer or age in order to swap out spells, something most dragons don't have or lacked the luxury of. Also, I wasn't suggesting dragons are completely insular, but I nevertheless disagree with the implication of the opposite, that dragons are highly social or trusting creatures. If they were, they would have such pow wows frequently, they would be found in larger groups, and arguably they wouldn't hoard treasure in their bedrooms (which seems kind of paranoid). One more thing to consider is the arrogance of dragons. How many of the dragons truly recognized the threat before it was too late. I'm sure most saw themselves as powerful enough to fight it off for a time. So is it possible that some, even several used mind blank, sure. Is it equally possible that most did not know, could not find out, and/or simply lacked the power to benefit from mind blank, absolutely.
Derren S. 03-12-07, 03:08 PM	Most dragons seemed to take the threat of the rage rather seriously. And if a dragon can cast mind blank he can cast it very ofteh (sorcerer casting). Or he comissions an item to get it (while polymorphed of course). Its not as there are that few wizards in the realm who do this. And how can a spell which protects you against a effect which plagues your kind since millenia which does not have a cure and is responsible for the downfall of your whole race be not usefull? Don't forget that the king killer star appears at least every 300 years which is a very short timespan for a dragon. So the rage is a very real threat to every dragon and not some obscure thing in the past/future. But yes, every dragon who is not at least a wyrm, does not know a friendly wyrm dragon, has no humanoid high level spellcaster ally, does not know a friendly dragon with a high level spellcaster ally, does not have the ability or money to comission a mind blank item and can't/want to make a deal with a spellcaster is affected by the rage.
TomCosta 03-12-07, 04:24 PM	We may have to agree to disagree here. You assume dragons took the rage seriously because of the few handfuls of prominent dragons we read about in the books. I assume that those dragons are discussed because they were involved and most dragons probably didn't know what hit them until it was too late. Both are assumptions that could be wrong in grand or subtle ways. You assume that dragons would have easy knowledge of the mind blank spell and either be able to cast the spell themselves frequently, have lots of high-level spellcasting friends (dragons or otherwise) with mind blank in their repetoire, and/or would be willing to request, cajole, or purchase the favor of a mind blank. I assume that few dragons have the capacity to cast 8th level spells in the first place, those that do would not choose to fill that slot with a spell they might and only might have to use a few times in the next hundred or thousand years because its utility otherwise is close to nill given their other defenses (which I assume would also make the spell little known among dragonkind in general), that it would not be a first choice replacement for a spell as a dragon advances, and just because a dragon can cast spells doesn't mean he can cast a lot of 8th level spells. I also assume that dragons are more haughty, arrogant, and insular, more likely to rely on their own power, rather than request or buy help (if they can figure out what that help might be) until it is too late. We both assume and could both be wrong. Alec Luin's comments concerning some of the potential problems with mind blank are also well thought out and worth considering in my opinion. For whatever its worth, the spell was run by Richard Lee Byers, Erid Boyd, and through the editorial staff at Wizards in an open, back and forth discussion. Again, it might have been nice to better account for mind blank, but I still don't think it absolutely necessary. Ultimately, it appears as though there were far fewer good dragons (who in general were more likely to have friends with mind blank access or willing to share access) effected by the rage, so I think the explanations given hold. If you don't, please feel free to tweak the mythal such that it ignores mind blank for your game.
Derren S. 03-12-07, 04:33 PM	Yet many evil dragons choose lichdom to protect them from the rage. That sounds like they do seriously. And if you follow your solitary dragon idea then all those dragons agreeing to a meeting and to leave their hordes unprotected while they sleep in close quaters with other dragons from different colors must have been very desperate to protect themself from the rage. And I can only repeat that when mind blank does block the rage then most dragon would have a measure to cast it. Such a arrogant creature would certainly hate it to go berserk and loose its superior intellect not to mention the danger which accompanies that. As for the 24 hour problem, you can easily solve that by casting the mind blank a bit earlier then normally. So they overlap and when the first mind blank runs out the second one is already in place.
Alac Luin 03-12-07, 04:37 PM	Alec Luin's comments concerning some of the potential problems with mind blank are also well thought out and worth considering in my opinion. I can get something right once in awhile. :)
Derren S. 03-12-07, 04:42 PM	When using scrolls it would cost 180000 gp for the full 60 day duration. Expensive. A 1/day mind blank (or 2/day if you want security) only costs 46k (without the race, class, alignment restriction cheese) And then there are permanent mind blank items (cowl of warding?). Mind blank is not that useless for dragons. A race which traditionally builds large defensive complexes and engages in big plots and intrigues would value divination immunity very much especially when they are so solitary as suggested. Even more when you rule that mind blank protects from true seeing (something I do not agree with but apparently many people do).
Alac Luin 03-12-07, 05:03 PM	As for the 24 hour problem, you can easily solve that by casting the mind blank a bit earlier then normally. So they overlap and when the first mind blank runs out the second one is already in place. This would be easy with digital clocks and such, but its not as easy without time measuring devices. "Check the sun"- great, untill it the overlap reaches into night time. We also have to look at those that do not have the ability to cast the spell themselves. It is a 3000 GP price for each scroll. thats 3000 GP each day. 90,000 for one month. Not every dragon has that much net worth. And this is for just ONE month. Untill Mind Blank scrolls are compleatly off the market, and wizards start extorting higher prices from the dragons. Dragons make it themselves... That is still 45,000 GP for the materials alone for one month for just one Dragon. Casting straight from memory? This would require Enough Dragons to to have mind blank as a known spell to cast it for the others, and require them to be living close enough to alow the recasting every 24 hrs, or 23 hrs and 59 minutes. This would play havoc on the ecosystem as food to feed this many dragons for an extended period of time. Also, here we would have a large consentration of ARROGANT and powerful creatures in cramped living space. A little thing we like to call "cabon feavor", it wouldn't take long before all these dragons would be at each others' throats. Now, a solitary dragon useing mind blank would be reasonable, on an individual bases. But on a large scale? To many logistical issues come into play. (availability of casters capable of casting, price, timeing)
Derren S. 03-12-07, 05:07 PM	This would play havoc on the ecosystem as food to feed this many dragons for an extended period of time. According to the draconomicon dragons can eat anything, even inorganic stuff. So food would not be an issue. Also, here we would have a large consentration of ARROGANT and powerful creatures in cramped living space. A little thing we like to call "cabon feavor", it wouldn't take long before all these dragons would be at each others' throats. Like the dragons in the rage book who decide to sleep out the rage in a huge sanctuary right next to each other? When they go this far why wouldnt they meet every day for several minutes till the spells are casted and avoid each other for the rest of the time?
Alac Luin 03-12-07, 05:21 PM	According to the draconomicon dragons can eat anything, even inorganic stuff. So food would not be an issue. This assumes that all the dragons would choose to do this for an exended period of time. Like the dragons in the rage book who decide to sleep out the rage in a huge sanctuary right next to each other? When they go this far why wouldnt they meet every day for several minutes till the spells are casted and avoid each other for the rest of the time? Now you multiplied the issue of time keeping. Each dragon must take into account travel time, more time out of thier lair. More exposure to dragon hunters, esspecially when the dragon hunters figure out the pattern of each dragon's movements. Now, if we are counting on just a few minutes of meeting time, all it would take is a good head wind to keep a dragon from getting there in time. Just on a whim from Talos, scores of dragons would fail to get to the appointed meeting place on time. And all it would take is the dragon that is to cast the mind blank from reaching the place and all the other dragons would be unprotected.
Derren S. 03-12-07, 05:24 PM	I did not mean that they fly every day from their lair to a meeting point. They would all stay in the same are only hours away from each other and meet every day for the spells to be casted. That is still better then sleeping right next to other dragons like it was done in the rage books. Also you say that it is a disadvantage that when the casting dragon shows up the others are unprotected. What is the alternative? If they wouldn't do this they would not be protected anyway. Also the rage mythal does not work so quickly as that a few hours decide between rage or no rage.
Alac Luin 03-12-07, 06:33 PM	I did not mean that they fly every day from their lair to a meeting point. They would all stay in the same are only hours away from each other and meet every day for the spells to be casted. Still this requires each and every dragon to know the exact time to make the meeting. That is still better then sleeping right next to other dragons like it was done in the rage books. Please, explain how this is better? Would you rather spend 23 hours a day worrying about your next fix, knowing that your survival depends on it and that another being is in complete control over whether or not you can get it. Living your life in total dependance on the actions of others. Or... I'm protected by large numbers and countless magical wards, I know where and what my biggest rivels are and what they are doing. Worry is small. Also, this assumes that there would be enough Mind Blank spells are available. On average, only a Great Wyrm can even cast an 8th level spell (as a 17th level caster), and not even all great wyrms can. Then, they can only cast it 4 times, IF they even know mind blank. This is only enough to protect themself and 3 other dragons. There is not enough 8th level spell slots to go around to protect all the dragons even is every great wyrm bothered to pick up this spell as a known spell. This falls back to relying on outside (non-dragon) sorces to get scrolls. Remember that is 3000 GP each and every day shelled out IF they can even find enough Mages to dedicate thier lives to scribe a scroll for them each day. Also you say that it is a disadvantage that when the casting dragon shows up the others are unprotected. What is the alternative? If they wouldn't do this they would not be protected anyway. Well, they can all band together for the sake of dragon kind and put themselves to sleep untill the effect is over and not have to worry about it. ;) Also the rage mythal does not work so quickly as that a few hours decide between rage or no rage. And the dragons KNEW this? They felt the pull of the rage getting stronger, how would they have known that it would have taken time?
dragonheart 03-12-07, 09:41 PM	THe vast majority of dragons have/had no idea what was happening with the rage and especially that it was not going to stop. Yes there was a small group of (mostly gold) metalic dragons that decided to try to sleep through it - because they didn't understand that there was not going to be an end to it (there had always been an end to draco rages in their experience). those dragon ancestors who had undserstood exactly what the Dracorage was and how it was created died with that knowledge 25,000 years ago (a good 20 generations back) in the assualt on the city where the mythal was seated - remember the flying elves lost the city but won the battle and the war by defending the mythal till no more dragons knew what it was and where it was. That makes it hard to figure out jsut what will or won't protect you. The rage actually sneaks up on you as well so your well into it beofre you even realize its twisting yoru thinking so "logical" defenses like mindblank are not that easy to recognize. Why were the evil dragons turning to lichdom? Because it was being offered to them as the only sure cure as some one said by becoming undead it changed them from dragon to undead and so took them out from under the effect of the spell - its was not just the fact that undead are not affected by mind affecting spells.
Stigger 03-16-07, 06:49 AM	Mind Blank offers protection from True Seeing? Never heard that one before... Not in my games is all I'll say on that matter. As to the whole issue of Mind Blank working against the dracorage mythal. I'd say it did personally, but I'm going by the idea that the mythal was spreading its power out pretty thinly (relatively for an epic spell anyway) that it wouldn't take a inordinate amount of effort to thwart it, as evinced by the abate dracorage spell. On the issue of its availability, it kinda depends on how prevalent you want to view magic in the Realms, and on your interpretation of what that means exactly. And personally, I'd say the scroll option was pretty much a non-starter, since it would require materials not readily available to your average dragon in the middle of nowhere. A distinct option for Steel Dragons and the other wyrms who lived in cities and towns, but for your average dragon I doubt it's much of an option. I'd would say they would think in terms of permanent items myself, which I would definitely think would be well within their reach. Personally, the whole idea of the Dracorage Mythal kinda bugs me... I can't fathom how a race as intelligent as Dragons are supposed to be wouldn't have developed a counter to it by now...
Derren S. 03-16-07, 09:42 AM	Some people count true seeing (and see invisible) as "information gathering divination" and argue that mind blank would block them. But as I said, I am not one of them. Yes, its really stretching it that dragons did not develop a counter to the rage, either through permanent mind blank items (costly, but a long lived creature like a dragon will at some point be able to get one) or a other counter. But that is what happens when "fluff" is changed so dramatically.
ShadezofDis 03-16-07, 09:59 AM	Derren, I think you're thinking a bit too much metagame in this and in other threads. The characters living in the realms don't have the knowledge that we do, in fact I'm sure there was a large percentage of dragons who had no clue the dracorage was creeping up on them. Further, I just don't agree with the amount of magic you view the realms as having (and that one's more opinion). The amount of Mind Blank scrolls in the realms is VERY limited (as is the amount of casters who can cast an 8th level spell) and most of the mages who can cast Mind Blank don't need to produce scrolls for income. There could very well be a dragon or 4 who knew a caster of appropriate level and were able to get their claws on some scrolls. . . but even then. . . 30 scrolls per month? That's SO much magic in the world that, IMO, it breaks any sense of realism the realms has. However, if that's the game you want to run then feel free, more power to you. I do dig a high powered game every now and again but in the end I prefer a smaller scale game that involves characters that I can relate to in an enviornment that I can comprehend (I haven't wrapped my head around the issues of high magic, the economic, security and social problems more specifically)
Derren S. 03-16-07, 01:22 PM	Have you looked at the int scores of dragons? Not saying that they don't know about the rage which is common knowledge aboung the learned humans in the realms and disproven by the events in the rage novels is like saying that we humans don't know that alzheimer exists. Dragons must have also known that the rage was not natural as it didn't exist since the beginning of their race but suddenly appeared. Also even I said that the scroll idea is not possible, but there are rods, permanent items and mythals (even if the dragons didn't knew the King Killer shield, a mythal giving Mind Blank to everyone is not that hard to cast).
Stigger 03-16-07, 03:29 PM	Problem is there are several shops in a least a couple of cities where you can just pop down to the local shop and pick up a scroll or three... probably not 8th level spells, but still... there is a lot of magic running around out there. As to realism in the Realms... you do realize there are people tossing exploding balls of flame from their fingertips, right? ;)
TomCosta 03-16-07, 04:31 PM	But really high powered magic is not falling off trees in the Realms. The Realms is not Ptolus or Eberron (both of which are excellent campaign settings better devised to 3E mechanics) where your everyday person has easy access to magic. The Realms is still a place where the fact that nations like Halruaa, Calimshan, and Thay having a little every day magic is awesome to most, where your average guard doesn't have a magic weapon or armor, and where until Thay started its mass magic selling shops, magic was bought in only the rarest of stores. In my view, more like many novels, FR seems more like a place where instead of having a downward sloping line to indicate the number of 1st-level to epic level characters present, you have a plummeting line, leaving lots of little guys and not much of a (at least not a proportionally sized) middle before you get to the really powerful. People in the Realms are still awed by a fireball and frightened by a magic missile in ways that folks in Ptolus and Eberron are not.
Derren S. 03-16-07, 05:40 PM	You are correct, there is little "everyday magic" and an everyday person has no access to magic but powerfull magic is relativly common and influental/powerfull people have no trouble in getting the items they want. That sounds strange but thats how the realms is. Even without the thay magicmart there are enough unaffiliated high level casters in the realms which one might commission an item from.
Stigger 03-16-07, 08:15 PM	Melvaunt had a rather large concentration of them as I recall... same with Waterdeep and Calimport. Getting them to agree to actually make it is the hard part, but the sources are definitely out there.
ShadezofDis 03-17-07, 01:43 PM	You are correct, there is little "everyday magic" and an everyday person has no access to magic but powerfull magic is relativly common and influental/powerfull people have no trouble in getting the items they want. That sounds strange but thats how the realms is. Even without the thay magicmart there are enough unaffiliated high level casters in the realms which one might commission an item from. Again, I disagree. The most powerful/influential people in the realms, and I mean the most powerful, can get most of the magic they want and have stores of magic to fall back upon. This does not mean that a noble family from cormyr has a perminant item that causes effects of an 8th level spell, this means that the royal family (through the aid of the war wizards) has access to a small handful of these items. Now, this does not mean it is wrong for you to have an FR that contains these things, nor does it mean that I am correct in my opinion of the prevalence of magic in the Realms. What it means is that, IMO, from the evidence I have seen and what I have extrapolated from said evidence, the Realms just does not have that much, accessable, high level magic. Even if everyone who had access to this magic were willing to use this magic in order to help. I understand that you feel differently and I respect that, but this is how I view the Realms and how I play the Realms, we'll just have to agree that our views of the Realms are different :) (you can add that to the "Death in the Realms" thread too :D)
Derren S. 03-17-07, 03:38 PM	The royal family having only a handfull of magical items? Read the novel "Cormyr" to see how much magic the royal family can muster. Considering that they have hundereds (thousands?) of wizards under their command and their court mage is able to create epic spells (I assume the enslave dragon spell from Elminsters Daughter is epic) its not surprising that they have a lot more items than "a handfull". Faerun might not look like it but it has very high magic. There are hundereds of archmages in the realms and much more casters which can be considered high level. And there are also that many divine spellcaster. Someone persuasive with enough money and conections (things dragons normally have) would have no trouble to locate someone who will comission an item for him.
Stigger 03-17-07, 08:30 PM	Don't think Vangy ever got past 19th lvl officially... which is kinda non-sensical to me, but there's a lot of nerfing of NPC's that's been going on with 3.x it seems, to me anyway.
Karsus the Mad 03-18-07, 03:45 AM	Don't think Vangy ever got past 19th lvl officially... which is kinda non-sensical to me, but there's a lot of nerfing of NPC's that's been going on with 3.x it seems, to me anyway. 2e Heroes Lorebook has him at 18th level I think. Nerfing? Of who for example? Most npcs I can think of have actually had level increases.
Stigger 03-18-07, 04:27 AM	Was more referring to the fact that they received possibly the worst builds they could rather than a matter of levels... though in Vangey's case he always seemed as if he should have been higher level than he was actually statted at. Or maybe that was just the way he acted. :D
Zsych 03-18-07, 08:58 AM	I haven't really seen the write-up, and I've only read the first novel. ... I think that the Dragons didn't really realize that they were suffering from a magical effect and so didn't try a magical counter. For some reason it seemed like a natural effect to them. Perhaps that was an intentional, or unintentional part of the spell itself, so that it would not be so easily countered.
ShadezofDis 03-18-07, 01:19 PM	The royal family having only a handfull of magical items? Read the novel "Cormyr" to see how much magic the royal family can muster. Considering that they have hundereds (thousands?) of wizards under their command and their court mage is able to create epic spells (I assume the enslave dragon spell from Elminsters Daughter is epic) its not surprising that they have a lot more items than "a handfull". Faerun might not look like it but it has very high magic. There are hundereds of archmages in the realms and much more casters which can be considered high level. And there are also that many divine spellcaster. Someone persuasive with enough money and conections (things dragons normally have) would have no trouble to locate someone who will comission an item for him. A small handful of items that can duplicate the effects of an 8th level spell. The sure do have a lot of +1 weapons, that, however, is a low power magic item. (I'm not going to look up the level of spell for that effect but I'm pretty sure it's 1st) They have rings that enable communication and grant various protections but, again, the amount of 8th level + magic they can call upon is small when compaired to the amount of low level magic they can call upon. The War Wizards are a VERY useful group, but not all of them create magic items and out of those who do the ones who can create items of that power level is VERY LOW. Out of everything I've read on Cormyr, I've never seen it stated that they can access a large amount of 8th+ magic. They can access some but it isn't a very large amount. (compared to most humanity it's a HUGE amount, but in the actual numbers it's small)
bitter thorn 03-20-07, 07:02 AM	That's not the impression that I come away from the novels with. I get that the novels aren't representitive of Joe Farmer or John Q Commoner, but sometimes the novels leave the impression that you can't swing a dead cat in the Realms without hitting an epic level wizard. But really high powered magic is not falling off trees in the Realms. The Realms is not Ptolus or Eberron (both of which are excellent campaign settings better devised to 3E mechanics) where your everyday person has easy access to magic. The Realms is still a place where the fact that nations like Halruaa, Calimshan, and Thay having a little every day magic is awesome to most, where your average guard doesn't have a magic weapon or armor, and where until Thay started its mass magic selling shops, magic was bought in only the rarest of stores. In my view, more like many novels, FR seems more like a place where instead of having a downward sloping line to indicate the number of 1st-level to epic level characters present, you have a plummeting line, leaving lots of little guys and not much of a (at least not a proportionally sized) middle before you get to the really powerful. People in the Realms are still awed by a fireball and frightened by a magic missile in ways that folks in Ptolus and Eberron are not.
Karsus the Mad 03-20-07, 08:49 AM	Which would you want to read about? The 90% of the population that's 1st level commoners, the 9% that are 1st-4th level in some other NPC class such as Expert, or the 1% that actually have PC classes?:P Even then, of all the known high level NPCs we know of, they only make up maybe .05% or less. It's much like modern media. Just because we hear or see celebrities and politicians every single day, they're still a fraction of a fraction of the population:)
ShadezofDis 03-20-07, 09:49 AM	Which would you want to read about? The 90% of the population that's 1st level commoners, the 9% that are 1st-4th level in some other NPC class such as Expert, or the 1% that actually have PC classes?:P Even then, of all the known high level NPCs we know of, they only make up maybe .05% or less. It's much like modern media. Just because we hear or see celebrities and politicians every single day, they're still a fraction of a fraction of the population:) I'm very much of the opinion that you don't need the "big booms" . . . well, I won't even get into it, lets see if I can phrase it right. I'd rather read a story that shows what the realms are really like, not what the "godlike power games" of the realms are like. But, much like celebriteis and politicians, I seem to be in the minority :D
bitter thorn 03-20-07, 10:09 AM	Which would you want to read about? The 90% of the population that's 1st level commoners, the 9% that are 1st-4th level in some other NPC class such as Expert, or the 1% that actually have PC classes?:P Even then, of all the known high level NPCs we know of, they only make up maybe .05% or less. It's much like modern media. Just because we hear or see celebrities and politicians every single day, they're still a fraction of a fraction of the population:) Frankly I'd be thrilled to see a series of novels about low to mid level parties and thier adventures. I weary of RSEs, and frankly arch mages are my least favorite kind of story character. That's a personal preferance, of course. For me stories about heroes don't have to be stories about epic and high level characters. To each thier own.
Alac Luin 03-20-07, 06:45 PM	I understand what Karsus the mad is saying, and we are all agreeing with him at least somewhat. It would be nice to read stories about that one percent of the population, but many of the stories we see are about those > .05% of high level/high resorce charicters. The thing he is saying, is that at least 99% of the Faerun population are rather boring to read about. This results in a rather messed up view of the "reality" on the ground, if we base our assumptions on the novels.
bitter thorn 03-20-07, 10:14 PM	I understand what Karsus the mad is saying, and we are all agreeing with him at least somewhat. It would be nice to read stories about that one percent of the population, but many of the stories we see are about those > .05% of high level/high resorce charicters. The thing he is saying, is that at least 99% of the Faerun population are rather boring to read about. This results in a rather messed up view of the "reality" on the ground, if we base our assumptions on the novels. I understand that the snapshot from the novels is out of kilter, hence my qualifier, "I get that the novels aren't representitive of Joe Farmer or John Q Commoner, but......." I understand that the Realms weren't designed as an arch mages only club. I just dont think that a character is uninteresting because they don't have god-like arcane power. I presume my tastes are in the vast minority based on the current marketing choices. Like I said, to each thier own. Edit: We do agree that the novels are far from representitive of the population. I just wish that they were much more so.
Alac Luin 03-20-07, 10:33 PM	I understand that the Realms weren't designed as an arch mages only club. I just dont think that a character is uninteresting because they don't have god-like arcane power. I presume my tastes are in the vast minority based on the current marketing choices. Like I said, to each thier own. We are in complete agreement here. I' personally like to see lower level characters as heroes in novels. I've seen several others with the same views, so you are not in any "vast minority" here. You have taken that statement out of the context it was written in as it applies to the ongoing discussion of the thread. I presume all the statement intended was inforcing that one cannot judge the overall availability of magic items based on novels. To do that, we would need 100 times more realms novels with characters who's prized possession is their scythe of crabgrass slaying (a non magical item) who spends the days fighting the hoards of weeds and crows.
bitter thorn 03-21-07, 12:08 AM	We are in complete agreement here. I' personally like to see lower level characters as heroes in novels. I've seen several others with the same views, so you are not in any "vast minority" here. You have taken that statement out of the context it was written in as it applies to the ongoing discussion of the thread. I presume all the statement intended was inforcing that one cannot judge the overall availability of magic items based on novels. To do that, we would need 100 times more realms novels with characters who's prized possession is their scythe of crabgrass slaying (a non magical item) who spends the days fighting the hoards of weeds and crows. :heehee Well put!
Bonzai 03-21-07, 12:24 PM	Back to the original post, I think that you are forgetting that this rage was different from all the others. Up till now, the Rage was an annoyance that occured once every couple centuries. The Dragons DID have solutions for it. They would polymorph, shape change, lock them selves up, or go to sleep for a few weeks until it blew over, and then go about their business. Heck, they might have even figured out how to use mind blank as you say (though it can be debated wether this would work or not against the Mythal). So, as the others brought up, why waste a lvl 8 spell slot on a spell you would rarely need, when you can simply take a nap once every third century? But the whole point of this series, was that this Rage was different. This one just got worse and worse, and eventually overcame even the measures that usually worked. No one knew that this one would be any different until the gathering of good dragons. A solution was presented, and most of the Dragons were too frightened to come up with any alternatives. Those that did, were branded as rogues and hunted down. So instead of mind blank, they eventually found a low level spell that accomplished much the same thing. However even that started failing towards the end. Who's to say that the effect wouldn't eventually over power the mind blank?
Derren S. 03-22-07, 02:02 AM	Up till now, the Rage was an annoyance that occured once every couple centuries. For an annoyance the effect of the rage was quite serious (destroying the whole draconic rulership over faerun).
ShadezofDis 03-22-07, 08:17 AM	For an annoyance the effect of the rage was quite serious (destroying the whole draconic rulership over faerun). Source? Page? For both statements actually, I'm not terribly familiar with dracorages overall.
Bonzai 03-22-07, 10:43 AM	Granted, the first one took them all by suprise, and caused a lot of damage. However they have had thousands of years to learn how to deal with it. In Modern times, it is only an inconvenience. Or was, before the last one. Compare it to the flue. Varients of the flue was responsible for millions of deaths. But now, with modern knowledge, flue shots, antibiotics, etc... the deaths are kept to a minimal. Now suddenly a supper flue appears, and almost nothing works. That is similar to the effects of this Dracorage.