Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Mad Mage 02-08-07, 05:56 PM	Disclaimer: Yes, I've heard the complaints that Elven High Magic has been reduced to Epic Magic, but I don't feel like turning this into an argument thread. 1) In Demihuman Deities, Corellon Larethian's entry mentions 3 spells that could be casted: Ritual of Solitude, Ritual of Complement, and Ritual of Myriad. As I expected, I didn't seen any translation of that in the Epic spells section of the 3.5 SRD. Have any 3.5 (or, if nothing else, 3.0) translations been made for these spells? 2) Besides the info & stats in Races of Faerun, what past & present info is there on the Elven High Mage?
Myssa Rei 02-08-07, 06:18 PM	They're not spells, actually, but classifications of the type of High Magic that a High Mage could cast as he advanced in his training. For a more detailed description of their mechanics, the Rituals are found in Cormanthor: Empire of Elves, which can be downloaded here on the Wizards website. In a nutshell, Rituals of Solitude are High Magic spells that an Elven High Mage could cast on his own without assistance. Rituals of Complement are spells that could only be cast with the assistance of two or three additional High Mages, while Myriad Rituals are classed as the mightiest spells ever created, requiring the participation of a dozen secondary casters, plus countless other participants in order to succeed. Of the latter class, the Mythal raised abover Myth Drannor, the Killing Storm cast by the Vyshanti, and the Sundering spell that shattered the continent and created the isle of Evermeet are the most well-known.
Mad Mage 02-08-07, 06:33 PM	They're not spells, actually, but classifications of the type of High Magic that a High Mage could cast as he advanced in his training. For a more detailed description of their mechanics, the Rituals are found in Cormanthor: Empire of Elves, which can be downloaded here on the Wizards website. Actually, I have a hard copy of that (Thank heavens for local book shops!), so I guess I better search for the page(s) on that. :cool: In a nutshell, Rituals of Solitude are High Magic spells that an Elven High Mage could cast on his own without assistance. Rituals of Complement are spells that could only be cast with the assistance of two or three additional High Mages, while Myriad Rituals are classed as the mightiest spells ever created, requiring the participation of a dozen secondary casters, plus countless other participants in order to succeed. Oooooh, okay. Makes sense now. Well, that's what I get for the lack of a proper explanation that DHD leaves. :doh: Of the latter class, the Mythal raised abover Myth Drannor, the Killing Storm cast by the Vyshanti, and the Sundering spell that shattered the continent and created the isle of Evermeet are the most well-known. Ah, yes, the Sundering. Heard of that one before. Lost Empires of Faerun seems to speak of the Mythal, at least, so I think the picture should (hopefully) start to come together. Thanks a bunch for all that. :D
MaskedOne 02-08-07, 10:59 PM	Myth Drannor wasn't High Magic. It was a wizard's variant. Many mythals are High Magic Rituals of Myriad but that one and a handful of others weren't.
Mad Mage 02-08-07, 11:24 PM	Myth Drannor wasn't High Magic. It was a wizard's variant. Many mythals are High Magic Rituals of Myriad but that one and a handful of others weren't. Ummmm, where is that stated? I mean, what book, page number and what-not included.
Lord Karsus 02-09-07, 12:13 AM	Ummmm, where is that stated? I mean, what book, page number and what-not included. -The Mythal in Myth Drannor was created by the wizard Mythmantor, who was not a High Mage. The Mythal was created using normal magics. See the novel Elminster in Myth Drannor, as the actual creation of the Mythal took place in that book. True Mythals are created using Elven High Magic. The Mythal of Myth Glaurach, or of Myth Adofhaer are two examples. -This link should be helpful: Elven Mythals (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10688478&postcount=146)
Mad Mage 02-09-07, 12:34 AM	-The Mythal in Myth Drannor was created by the wizard Mythmantor, who was not a High Mage. The Mythal was created using normal magics. See the novel Elminster in Myth Drannor, as the actual creation of the Mythal took place in that book. True Mythals are created using Elven High Magic. The Mythal of Myth Glaurach, or of Myth Adofhaer are two examples. -This link should be helpful: Elven Mythals (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10688478&postcount=146) Yes, I've read Elminster in Myth Drannor, but with how mixing novels and rulebooks tends to be as disastrous as mixing amonia & bleach, I didn't pay that much attention to what degree of arcane magic was involved.
Lord Karsus 02-09-07, 12:48 AM	Yes, I've read Elminster in Myth Drannor, but with how mixing novels and rulebooks tends to be as disastrous as mixing amonia & bleach, I didn't pay that much attention to what degree of arcane magic was involved. -If you mix amonia and bleach, you can then mix novels and sourcebooks, and have things make sense. That was the only way I was able to finish the Return of the Archwizards trilogy...;)
MaskedOne 02-09-07, 02:26 AM	Cormanthyr: Empire of Elves provides explanations on High Magic and Wizardly mythals as well as defining Mythanthor's version as wizardly. The novel while a good book does not provide indepth explanations of either form of mythal.
Green Elven Vampire 02-09-07, 03:16 AM	Also, read the 2ED book, Elves of Evermeet, for more detailed information on Elven High Magic.
clevercommie 02-09-07, 07:24 PM	-The Mythal in Myth Drannor was created by the wizard Mythmantor, who was not a High Mage. The Mythal was created using normal magics. See the novel Elminster in Myth Drannor, as the actual creation of the Mythal took place in that book. True Mythals are created using Elven High Magic. The Mythal of Myth Glaurach, or of Myth Adofhaer are two examples. -This link should be helpful: Elven Mythals (http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=10688478&postcount=146) could someone give me a stat write up for mythmantor I can't find him anywhere
Krash 02-09-07, 08:28 PM	Excuse the broken record-player in the background. "Elven High Magic", "Rituals of Solitude/Myriad et. al." are all nomenclature if you are playing in 3E. They are an elven-specific branch of epic spellcasting. In 3E terms, Mythanthar cast his own version of an epic spell using the mythal seed to create the mythal in Myth Drannor. It was no different to what the "High Mages" of the city would have cast, if they had decided to do so - it just wasn't 'called' High Magic. Thank you all for your attention. -- George Krashos
MaskedOne 02-09-07, 09:22 PM	True, but he seemed to be asking about 2E systems and under those systems there were slightly larger differences.
Lord Karsus 02-09-07, 11:30 PM	Excuse the broken record-player in the background. "Elven High Magic", "Rituals of Solitude/Myriad et. al." are all nomenclature if you are playing in 3E. They are an elven-specific branch of epic spellcasting. In 3E terms, Mythanthar cast his own version of an epic spell using the mythal seed to create the mythal in Myth Drannor. It was no different to what the "High Mages" of the city would have cast, if they had decided to do so - it just wasn't 'called' High Magic. Thank you all for your attention. -- George Krashos -Not neccessarily true. Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves specifically says that some spells have been adapted by normal wizards, and have been "rewritten" as normal spells. The example used in the book is Wrath of the Just, which is a spell that is cast by "mundane" wizards (Level < 20), that was adapted from a High Magic ritual. -Now, Mythmathor did not neccessarily use Epic Magic/High Magic. He could have been using a "mundane" variation of the High Magic Ritual that lays Mythals.
MaskedOne 02-10-07, 01:13 AM	Or not. Mystra treated the spell as level 10 since for all practical intents it was a working of greater than level 9. There is one known way past level 9 magic in 3.X Toril. It is not a special exemption by virtue of elven blood. It is epic magic so barring a redefining of that mythal as several hundred mini-magics or a new bypass to the ban. Mythanthar used epic magic and it shouldn't be anything less. The changes in High Magic may annoy people but degrading another spell of greater than level 9 into something non-epic and therefore in this case level 9 or under because there is only one active rule set for spells greater than level 9 is not an appropriate answer mechanically or with respect to lore.
Gellion 02-10-07, 08:58 PM	Where is GothicDan?:confused:
Lord Karsus 02-10-07, 10:57 PM	...so barring a redefining of that mythal as several hundred mini-magics... -Undermountain is said by Magic of Faerūn to have a Mythal, which is nothing more than multiple layers of wards upon wards, to produce the "greater Mythal effect". I don't consider it an actual Mythal, but it just goes to show that this has already been done. The changes in High Magic may annoy people but degrading another spell of greater than level 9 into something non-epic and therefore in this case level 9 or under because there is only one active rule set for spells greater than level 9 is not an appropriate answer mechanically or with respect to lore. -Like I said before, Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves , a 2e supplement, says that some High Magic Rituals have been "converted" into "mudane" spells, which can be used by any old Wizard with the spell in his spellbook. Although there is some evidence that points that he was using Epic Magic (The fact that he was consumed by his spell), I believe there is more evidence that points that he was not using Epic Magic.
MaskedOne 02-11-07, 01:32 AM	Shrug ...the following can be determined about the 10th-level spell create mythal. I'm failing to see how a level 10 spell is going to translate as something other than epic. Non high-magic yes but 3.X has only provided me with one way to simulate a level 10 spell that I'm aware of. Just because a high magic ritual can be adapted out the forms of high magic does not mean it can always be made available as a spell of level 9 or under. Unless you nerf the spell couph spellshift couph, it has to translate at greater than level and unlike 2E, there aren't two to three ways to do it. The only option is epic.
Krash 02-11-07, 02:42 AM	-Like I said before, Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves , a 2e supplement, says that some High Magic Rituals have been "converted" into "mundane" spells, which can be used by any old Wizard with the spell in his spellbook. Although there is some evidence that points that he was using Epic Magic (The fact that he was consumed by his spell), I believe there is more evidence that points that he was not using Epic Magic. I fail to see how you can use 2E sources to refute a statement on 3E game mechanics (epic magic) when those game mechanics didn't exist in 2E. High Magic in respect of game mechanics, as described in "Cormanthyr" is gone. You might as well put a big black marker through all the 'rules' stuff on High Magic in that book. Ergo, statements predicated on the fact that High Magic was its own discreet system of spellcasting in 2E (like the one on HM rituals being converted to 'mundane' spells) can't be used to refute commonsense applications of 3E game mechanics. High Magic is epic spellcasting - whether you can live with it or not. In 4E, it'll likely be something different again. Just like it was in 1E. -- George Krashos
dragonheart 02-11-07, 01:05 PM	Krash, I think much of the point here is that we are trying to not only translate game mechanics but historical lore about Myth Drannor's Mythal and that forces us to try to find balance between 2e lore and mechanics and 3.5e lore and mechanics. In 2e Mythanthor had lost his ability to cast high magic so in 3.5e he can not use (standard) epic magic to create the mythal as that would be the equvalent. one possibility here is that he found a way to cast a true 10th level spell ( I believe there is some stuff somewhere stating that when mystra banned all 10th level + magic she actually left 10 level spells a possibility for elves). If this is true then since the use of 10th level + magic was not normal for elves it would elxplain much and provide a possible route for creating a "wizardly" non-epic mythal spell closely related in form and function to the elven high magic ritual or Myriad/EPic level group cast spell that would normally have been done by the elves (and that would have done by the high elves involved in MYthanthor's casting if they had realized in time that it would cost him his life). THis would also make Mythanthor the only elf in "recent" history to have used 10th level magic and would explain why his notes on the mythal were so incredibly valuable - that folio of his notes may be the only real link existing to how to tap into the sorts of powers used in Netheril.
MaskedOne 02-11-07, 03:19 PM	Except that you aren't suggesting a balance. You are supporting a line of thought that carried to its proper conclusion will strip everyone except high magi of spells greater than level 9. Think people, humanity cannot wield High Magic under the old systems. If we accept the faulty premise that Mythanthar did not use Epic magic because he was incapable of High Magic in 2E then we must strip humanity within Toril of epic spellcasting because they could not use High Magic in 2E. That's not balance and it isn't even remotely close to keeping the lore consistent. Mythanthar created and cast an epic spell without the mechanical benefits granted by the High Mage prc. That's all the balance that current system really allows you to get. If you don't like it then redefine High Magic within your campaign. As things stand though, High Magic is one possible approach to epic spellcasting. Inability to gain the benefits of the High Mage prc does not equate to lack of epic spellcasting and losing the high mage prc does not equate to losing epic spellcasting.
dragonheart 02-11-07, 10:38 PM	the problem with that is that as written all Mythanthor would have lost at worst is +2 bonus vs Spellcrafting DC for 4 seeds out of the Epic seed list. How does that make him not an elven High mage - this is the crux - as written in 2e he suffers an extremely major dibilitation - going from being a high mage of considerable power to being unable to cast spells as a high mage. His glory is that by dint of massive spell research he discovers a way that he, an elf, can cast a spell that is the equivalent of high magic. now how do you duplicate both the loss and recovery under the present rules to keep the historical lore matching the game mechanics? Its not he was stripped of his status as a high mage its a magical accident rendered him unable to cast elven high magic two very different things - in the first he looses his abilities as a high mage and the status (which it is clear from Cormanthor : EotE he keeps) but would keep the ability to cast epic spells. in the second he loses all ability to cast epic spells thus losing he abilities as a high mage (which he was) and has to do something strange and wonderful to substitute for it. Now I will grant you that its much easier game mechanics wise to simply say he lost his +2s to 4 seeds and so had to research an epic spell that had such a high DC that to bring it down he had to sacrifice his life. but it doesn't fit the lore existing. THis is really the crux of the ongoing complaints about reducing EHM to a (minor) variant of normal Epic magic - the way they did it negates a large chunk of detailed 2e lore about how EHM's functioned. As many of us have said what is really needed is to throw out the existing high mage PrC and redo it as it should have been done in the first place making use of the 2e lore and perhaps adapting such feats as circle magic to make it significantly more effective. In my NSHO it should allow casters using circles a 2x reduction on DC from what is listed for each member of the circle involved/level of spell donated to power the effect when cast by a EHM with the requisite feats. (It should also have full caster progression)
Krash 02-12-07, 04:42 AM	No, what you are trying to do is reconcile 2E game mechanics and rules with 3E game mechanics and rules. You continue to base all your assumptions on High Magic being a different type of spellcasting. In 3E, it is quite simply nothing of the kind. It is nothing more than a type of epic spellcasting unique to elves. When I say unique, I mean that the epic spells they cast were unique to their High Magi (just like "Laeral's Crowning Touch" is unique to Mystra's Chosen). That doesn't mean that other races and other elven spellcasters (i.e. Mythanthar) couldn't attempt to replicate them, but what they ended up creating and casting wasn't High Magic. If I scratch build a Ferrari in my garage, it won't be a Ferrari, no matter how identical the end product is - although it may fool a few people, just like epic magic fools some into thinking that stuff is "High Magic" when it isn't. Or that people are creating "mythals" when they aren't. But one man's mythal is another man's ward spell. And one elf's High Magic, is another elf's 'greatest spell accomplishment'. -- George Krashos
Stigger 02-12-07, 08:33 AM	Feh, it's all just jargon so they can charge Coronals higher prices by calling it High Magic versus Epic Magic... undercutting and descriminating against non-elven competitors for lucrative warding spell contracts.
dragonheart 02-13-07, 11:09 PM	Krash I'm really not trying to reconcile the 2 sets of mechanics (at least in my eyes) what I'm trying to do is reconcile the lore that stes that Mythanthar was a high mage (read epic mage casting "elven high magic spells) and in an accident he lost the ability to cast High magic spells (read Epic spells). and then that if the high mages present (including the shrinshee) had realized what he was doing in time they would have stopped his spell and used high magic. If all that means is that he forgot permanently what ever epic spells he had learned but kept the feat then why couldn't he become an high mage all over again? on the other hand if he lost the entire ability to cast epic magic and found some sort of loophole that let him do the equivalent then that is a major piece of spellcraft. I'm not sure where it is but I believe there is a passage somewhere that at least suggests that waht Mystra actually did was completely rewrite the way one had to go about doing 10+ level magic so all the old techniques didn't work anymore but she left Epic magic alone so there are clues to it out there and so it has become the alternative of choice for greater than level 9 magics. If Mythanthor did in fact find enough lore to develop a true 10th level spell under Mystra's hidden new rules (perhaps only for elves who are almost totally unlikely to go looking in the first place) then it would explain much and stay within 3.x game mechanics while also matching with the older lore and its descriptions.
Krash 02-14-07, 08:00 AM	Well then. How about this: Let's just go with the lore and ignore the game mechanics. Mythanthar is a High Mage (a member of a group of mages with a particular name and access to particular spells). Something happens to Mythanthar and causes him to cease to be a member of the High Mages and hence unable to access their library of spell lore. Mythanthar remembers his time as a High Mage. He recalls mentions of a thing called a 'mythal'. He has a rudimentary understanding of the process and begins to craft his own spell to create such a thing. It's not a High Magic mythal. Why? Because it's not openly cast by a group of High Mages, nor is it one of their specially crafted, accesible only by other wizards who are part of their little High Mage group, spell. There is no inconsistency in the lore. There is no inconsistency in the game mechanics with the advent of 3E. The only inconsistency that exists is when people add 2E game mechanics to the argument and persist in classing High Magic as anything other than what it has become: a category of epic magic. It most certainly has nothing to do with true (i.e. non metamagicked) 10+ level spells which are simply an anachronism of 2E that we've had to deal with in 3E because Slade bound up the game mechanics with the realmslore. In his questionable wisdom, he wasn't content to state that Karsus and the wizards of Netheril cast "mighty magics that modern-day spellcasters cannot equal" - instead he had to put numbers to these spells creating an eternal p$#@ing contest on powerful spells which is repeated ad nauseum. It's a classic lesson on writing and game design in the Realms. Leave some wiggle room. Don't deal in absolutes. When answering one question, create three more. That way, from a lore perspective, the game mechanics don't matter unless you want them to. The Netheril boxed set intertwined the lore and the game mechanics to such an unyielding degree that subsequent game (not lore) revisions have created a difficult state of events with respect to reconciling everything to 'make it work'. The game revisions have demanded lore revisions when they really shouldn't have that kind of deep interaction. People wax lyrical about individuals such as the Simbul and what CR she has, levels, saves, whether she matches in the game what she can do in the novels. When you look at something like that, the answers don't really matter unless you want them to. The Simbul is still the Simbul. She'll always be the Mage-Queen of Aglarond - no matter what levels you assign her. Where you run into problems is where you define or describe the lore only through game mechanics. The Simbul shouldn't be able to keep Thay at bay single-handed because she's only CRXX and all the zulkirs combined are CRXX (BTW, she doesn't keep Thay at bay single-handed, people just think she does. Watch this space). That kind of analysis and game "logic" is fraught with danger when applied to a living, breathing gameworld that has seen 3 editions of the D&D game and will likely see more. The Realms works best when you can take an aspect, rip out the old game mechanics, add the new game mechanics, and nothing had changed (except the way you play the game). Any other scenario sees people utilising valuable time and resources to keep patching up the holes. Trust me, there's been quite a bit of patching in 3E! I can only wonder where 4E will take us. The most important point to remember is that realmslore trumps all. A good realmslore explanation will always be superior to one involving game mechanics. Why? Because in another couple of years, your very clever game mechanics-oriented explanation will be worse than useless and you'll be back to square one.:) -- George Krashos
GothicDan 02-14-07, 08:51 AM	Question: Would it be undesirable to want the game mechanics to try to match up with the lore as much as possible (with some added wiggle room - sort of like how Mage's magic system goes, where each rank in a Sphere gives you a rough 'idea' if what you can do)? I really, really like lore. And I really like mechanics that back up the lore; I don't care when the mechanics were made, be it 1E or 4E, I would choose that which best represented the lore. Mind you, I'm not arguing with ANY points made on this thread. I'm just curious as to what people think about this, in large part because I've been making a very specific attempt to match mechanics to lore in my own settings.
HVulpes 02-14-07, 09:13 AM	One thought I had to adapt the old lore with the new lore was the idea that every High mage aiding the first adds a migating factor to spell (Much like the migating factor that occurs when spellcasters cast different level spells to make the Spellcasting DC less for the spell). Perhaps adding that to the Prestage class rather than the Mythral builds they have in current one. Just a though.
Stigger 02-14-07, 05:02 PM	Lore generally trumps mechanics in my own little world... by a pretty big margin.
Krash 02-14-07, 05:34 PM	Question: Would it be undesirable to want the game mechanics to try to match up with the lore as much as possible (with some added wiggle room - sort of like how Mage's magic system goes, where each rank in a Sphere gives you a rough 'idea' if what you can do)? I really, really like lore. And I really like mechanics that back up the lore; I don't care when the mechanics were made, be it 1E or 4E, I would choose that which best represented the lore. Mind you, I'm not arguing with ANY points made on this thread. I'm just curious as to what people think about this, in large part because I've been making a very specific attempt to match mechanics to lore in my own settings. It's not undesirable at all. The only problem is that the game mechanics keep changing. And will continue to do so. Wringing the life out of the lore every 8-10 years to make it match up with the new mechanics is a very difficult process - as thread after thread on these boards attest to. -- George Krashos
GothicDan 02-15-07, 06:55 PM	Then the real question is - why do the game mechanics keep changing? Hmmmm...
MaskedOne 02-15-07, 07:19 PM	Shrug Short term, specific answer: Either because a lot of people dislike something about the old mechanics or because WotC being a corporation and dependent on money to continue publishing books for us re-writes the rules so it can launch a new series of products. Hopefully, both reasons complement each other. Long term, generic, useless answer: Change is a side effect of human created systems. Admittedly Dungeons and Dragons changes more rapidly than chess but it's also a more complex system and even chess has made drastic changes (one of the more amusing being that the queen used to be one of the most useless pieces on the board). All things considered, I like the new rules more than those of 2E. I just occasionally have problems with presentation.
BrennonGoldeye 02-16-07, 10:13 AM	Then the real question is - why do the game mechanics keep changing? Hmmmm... The mechanics don't actually change, just the equations we use to understand them. Sound famaliar? ;)
GothicDan 02-16-07, 11:28 AM	Not at all, because in this case, the future of the system is dependent entirely upon the whims of the authors. And I'm atheist, remember. ;)
BrennonGoldeye 02-17-07, 01:37 PM	Although it is fitting to apply my post to religon, I was speaking of science.;) Faithless you say. Pity.
Mad Mage 02-19-07, 05:39 PM	Okay, okay, okay, I think this has gone long enough. Please stop.
Karsus the Mad 02-20-07, 09:46 AM	Although there is some evidence that points that he was using Epic Magic (The fact that he was consumed by his spell), I believe there is more evidence that points that he was not using Epic Magic. Since myth drannors mythal is specifically noted as being created by Mythanthor using an Epic spell utilizing the mythal seed, it's more than evidence. It looks rather concrete. @Mad Mage, there's some Epic conversions of High Magic rituals found on page 137 and 138, those being Gift of Alliance, and Starshine Upon the People, as well as some Epic versions of elven non-High Magic spells such as Glorious Light of Renewal and Song of Enevahr. Also, the link in my sig will take you to a thread with fan created Epic Spells. Many High Magic rituals have been converted there.
BrennonGoldeye 02-20-07, 08:39 PM	Okay, okay, okay, I think this has gone long enough. Please stop. Dear Mad, your getting answers. The system is flawed. Some of us realize the system adapts and go along continuing to enjoy ourselves, some enjoy not enjoying themselves. It's useless trying to compare 2E to 3 or 3.5. Just ask George(ya know, Krash.) In 2E casting above 7th level spells was High Magic for Ao's sake. It is above obvious that elves are more than capable of casting 8th and 9th level spells at this point. That kinda puts the nail in the coffin of 2E High Magic. The elves are back, truly back. So are the dwarves , gnomes and hin. We can all archmage now. Does that make it plain. True High Magic Dweomers should be Epic in level, with a ritual to back it up. Sink the frikin country that threatens you, future whininess be darned. Just ask Jhamdaath.;)
GothicDan 02-22-07, 08:34 PM	For the majority of 2E, Elves were capable of casting 8th and 9th level spells.
Karsus the Mad 02-22-07, 10:18 PM	For the majority of 2E, Elves were capable of casting 8th and 9th level spells. I think he was talking about High Magic before CEoE....
GothicDan 02-22-07, 10:19 PM	Obviously. Hence I was specifying time intervals.
Karsus the Mad 02-22-07, 10:43 PM	Obviously. Hence I was specifying time intervals. Sorry. It was the entire 8th and 9th level spells that confused me. Sorry, despite being neutral to elves in genral, I've never seen them limited to 7th level spells, and high magic (which I always considered the "greatest" being nothing but what humans consider ordinary, everyday, automatically known without effort, 8th nd 9th level cantrips...errrr...I mean spells:D I for one am bloody happy that finally High Magic can mean something beyond sad, pathetic effects achievable by minor mage spells. I think the elves deserve more than what little previous editions have thrown at them.
BrennonGoldeye 02-23-07, 01:20 PM	Hey, at least ya'll know I'm a he. Darn high cheekbones..;)