races & who they worship. [Archive] - Wizards Community

races & who they worship. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
xpochian
02-18-08, 05:27 PM hello all,

i've got a 3.5e FR campaign off to a roaring start and a question came up from a player: he wanted to know if a dwarf had to chose a dwarfen deity to worship, an elf had to chose an elven deity, etc.

my initial thoughts were they they wouldn't really have a reason not to, but then again, stranger things can happen. another concern is that we're using the expanded domains from other source books, and devotion feats from complete champion, so it seems that a dwarf unhappy with the lack of domains can merely shop out to a non-dwarf deity to get the domains he wants.

should i be worried about this, or let it slide? i have a single player who chose a deity solely on the basis of the domain ability of the renewal domain and now that his human died, he's thinking of making a dwarven tank-cleric of lathander to reap the same benefits.

thanks in advance!
GothicDan
02-18-08, 05:31 PM It's not unknown for demihumans (Elves, Dwarves, etc.) to worship human deities, but really, they need a reason to. Simply put, a demihuman raised in a demihuman community is going to know little to nothing about human deities, naturally.

But yeah - I would never allow this based solely on mechanical desires.
Lord Karsus
02-19-08, 09:37 AM -You don't choose your deity based on the domains they offer. When players in my own campaign do they (and they have), I tell them not to do that, and if they continue, I don't grant them Divine spells until they choose their deity the right way.
xpochian
02-20-08, 07:38 PM -You don't choose your deity based on the domains they offer. When players in my own campaign do they (and they have), I tell them not to do that, and if they continue, I don't grant them Divine spells until they choose their deity the right way.

heh, and i thought i was mean!

i was honestly thinking of using a similar method: i'd pick two domains that balance one another and they'd pick two domains and if we matched up, great; if not, we'd use mine. it felt it'd prevent the deity-shopping that rolling up a new cleric can sometimes become. i tried to impress upon them that domains are merely an outlook and sometimes the 'best' ones aren't really well suited for how the character acts in-game.
Lord Karsus
02-20-08, 07:42 PM heh, and i thought i was mean!

-In my mind, that's metagaming. You play a Cleric to serve a deity. You choose what deity for serve based on what deities are availible in the setting. You act in accordance with their dogmas and statutes. Randomly picking domains that benefit you the most (as in a player doing it) negates the entire concept of the Cleric- a holyman who serves so-and-so. (If you can't tell, I'm not big on the 'you don't have to choose a deity to be a Cleric' concept).
xpochian
02-20-08, 07:47 PM oh, i'm in total agreement with you on this one. i've discovered that most of the times, without any ruling on my behalf, some people play the cleric as a 'fighter that sometimes heals after combat' - which is perfectly alright for a war priest, but not so much for a supposed cloistered clergyman of mystra or a traveling healer of lathander.
Lord Karsus
02-21-08, 11:01 AM oh, i'm in total agreement with you on this one. i've discovered that most of the times, without any ruling on my behalf, some people play the cleric as a 'fighter that sometimes heals after combat' - which is perfectly alright for a war priest, but not so much for a supposed cloistered clergyman of mystra or a traveling healer of lathander.

-Exactly.
gomeztoo
02-21-08, 03:24 PM I've known players who had to look at their char sheet to remember which deity their cleric was serving...
There is something wrong then imo...
Lord Karsus
02-21-08, 04:04 PM I've known players who had to look at their char sheet to remember which deity their cleric was serving...
There is something wrong then imo...

-Yes, that is certainly an indicator of a problem.
Zireael
02-25-08, 03:26 AM Demihumans can worship human deities. Can it be vice versa??
Khaelieth
02-25-08, 07:42 AM Demihumans can worship human deities. Can it be vice versa??

Certainly, but quite uncommon.
Lord Karsus
02-25-08, 12:50 PM Demihumans can worship human deities. Can it be vice versa??

-Yes.

Certainly, but quite uncommon.

-It really depends on the circumstances. An Elf raised by Humans, with no socialization with other Elves, is going to worship Human deities. And so on...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
02-25-08, 01:55 PM When you get right down to it, anyone can worship any god. The question is how common any specific instance would be (and whether or not the deity in question would respond favorably).
Zanan
02-25-08, 05:19 PM Worship is something different than receiving divine spells, of course. By default (PHB), you can only be a cleric of a deity that caters to your race. That has been contradicted many a time by novels, of course, and I wouldn't bar a player from playing a cleric who follows a deity from another race. (Obviously, 4E will apparently do away with that, and more forcefully too.) As has been said though, if a character wants something cool from a domain, s/he should look up the deity list first and not start contemplating later. In any case, I require from my players that they have a character with some background, not a character that has a player who knows all the ins and outs of the rules and wants to exploit them to the best effect. That's fine for gamers in their teens ... IMHO.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
02-25-08, 06:20 PM Worship is something different than receiving divine spells, of course.

Indeed, I tend to think that's self-evident.;)
Old Sage
02-26-08, 12:39 AM In our world and in the Realms, worship is the devotion of time, energy and attention to something you see as ontologically greater than yourself.
Old Sage
02-26-08, 12:40 AM Demihumans can worship human deities. Can it be vice versa??Yes.

And as we've seen in some of the lore in 1e/2e/3e FR... most races have groups that have, on occasion, worshipped deities outside their more traditional racial pantheons.

Demihuman Deities notes several examples of humans worshipping dwarven deities and dwarves worshipping gnomish and elven deities for example.
Zanan
02-26-08, 04:11 AM Indeed, I tend to think that's self-evident.;)

It should. But since real world gamers are usually brought up into a monotheistic society, the borders can become somewhat spongy. So sometimes it is better to tell people about these distinctions, if only to make sure what we are talking about and dealing with.
xpochian
02-26-08, 12:15 PM while i couldn't agree more with pretty much everyone's take on the subject, i should note that i only asked so as to prevent people from god-shopping a level out for the sole purpose of "getting cool abilities."

your rampaging half orc barbarian from the spine of the world suddenly wants to take a level of a cloistered cleric of mystra? fine. give me a good story-based reason that this isn't min/maxing and i'll let it slide.

lets say, that he took note of the party's mage and was fascinated at the power that he held and became interested in the weave and that there was a 'controller' of the weave (mystra) and after a horrid battle in which he was only saved by magic he started to not only respect the idea of the weave but also yearned to become part of it, or at least understand it on a greater level, as he saw it as life-saving and helpful. this of could would be developed over a few sessions and i'd probably give the player a lot of wiggle room if they spent points on cross-class skills to denote their character's interest in the subject (knowledge planes, knowledge arcana, spellcraft, ect.)
Lord Karsus
02-26-08, 12:23 PM your rampaging half orc barbarian from the spine of the world suddenly wants to take a level of a cloistered cleric of mystra? fine. give me a good story-based reason that this isn't min/maxing and i'll let it slide.

-That's exactly it.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xpochian 02-18-08, 05:27 PM	hello all, i've got a 3.5e FR campaign off to a roaring start and a question came up from a player: he wanted to know if a dwarf had to chose a dwarfen deity to worship, an elf had to chose an elven deity, etc. my initial thoughts were they they wouldn't really have a reason not to, but then again, stranger things can happen. another concern is that we're using the expanded domains from other source books, and devotion feats from complete champion, so it seems that a dwarf unhappy with the lack of domains can merely shop out to a non-dwarf deity to get the domains he wants. should i be worried about this, or let it slide? i have a single player who chose a deity solely on the basis of the domain ability of the renewal domain and now that his human died, he's thinking of making a dwarven tank-cleric of lathander to reap the same benefits. thanks in advance!
GothicDan 02-18-08, 05:31 PM	It's not unknown for demihumans (Elves, Dwarves, etc.) to worship human deities, but really, they need a reason to. Simply put, a demihuman raised in a demihuman community is going to know little to nothing about human deities, naturally. But yeah - I would never allow this based solely on mechanical desires.
Lord Karsus 02-19-08, 09:37 AM	-You don't choose your deity based on the domains they offer. When players in my own campaign do they (and they have), I tell them not to do that, and if they continue, I don't grant them Divine spells until they choose their deity the right way.
xpochian 02-20-08, 07:38 PM	-You don't choose your deity based on the domains they offer. When players in my own campaign do they (and they have), I tell them not to do that, and if they continue, I don't grant them Divine spells until they choose their deity the right way. heh, and i thought i was mean! i was honestly thinking of using a similar method: i'd pick two domains that balance one another and they'd pick two domains and if we matched up, great; if not, we'd use mine. it felt it'd prevent the deity-shopping that rolling up a new cleric can sometimes become. i tried to impress upon them that domains are merely an outlook and sometimes the 'best' ones aren't really well suited for how the character acts in-game.
Lord Karsus 02-20-08, 07:42 PM	heh, and i thought i was mean! -In my mind, that's metagaming. You play a Cleric to serve a deity. You choose what deity for serve based on what deities are availible in the setting. You act in accordance with their dogmas and statutes. Randomly picking domains that benefit you the most (as in a player doing it) negates the entire concept of the Cleric- a holyman who serves so-and-so. (If you can't tell, I'm not big on the 'you don't have to choose a deity to be a Cleric' concept).
xpochian 02-20-08, 07:47 PM	oh, i'm in total agreement with you on this one. i've discovered that most of the times, without any ruling on my behalf, some people play the cleric as a 'fighter that sometimes heals after combat' - which is perfectly alright for a war priest, but not so much for a supposed cloistered clergyman of mystra or a traveling healer of lathander.
Lord Karsus 02-21-08, 11:01 AM	oh, i'm in total agreement with you on this one. i've discovered that most of the times, without any ruling on my behalf, some people play the cleric as a 'fighter that sometimes heals after combat' - which is perfectly alright for a war priest, but not so much for a supposed cloistered clergyman of mystra or a traveling healer of lathander. -Exactly.
gomeztoo 02-21-08, 03:24 PM	I've known players who had to look at their char sheet to remember which deity their cleric was serving... There is something wrong then imo...
Lord Karsus 02-21-08, 04:04 PM	I've known players who had to look at their char sheet to remember which deity their cleric was serving... There is something wrong then imo... -Yes, that is certainly an indicator of a problem.
Zireael 02-25-08, 03:26 AM	Demihumans can worship human deities. Can it be vice versa??
Khaelieth 02-25-08, 07:42 AM	Demihumans can worship human deities. Can it be vice versa?? Certainly, but quite uncommon.
Lord Karsus 02-25-08, 12:50 PM	Demihumans can worship human deities. Can it be vice versa?? -Yes. Certainly, but quite uncommon. -It really depends on the circumstances. An Elf raised by Humans, with no socialization with other Elves, is going to worship Human deities. And so on...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 01:55 PM	When you get right down to it, anyone can worship any god. The question is how common any specific instance would be (and whether or not the deity in question would respond favorably).
Zanan 02-25-08, 05:19 PM	Worship is something different than receiving divine spells, of course. By default (PHB), you can only be a cleric of a deity that caters to your race. That has been contradicted many a time by novels, of course, and I wouldn't bar a player from playing a cleric who follows a deity from another race. (Obviously, 4E will apparently do away with that, and more forcefully too.) As has been said though, if a character wants something cool from a domain, s/he should look up the deity list first and not start contemplating later. In any case, I require from my players that they have a character with some background, not a character that has a player who knows all the ins and outs of the rules and wants to exploit them to the best effect. That's fine for gamers in their teens ... IMHO.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-25-08, 06:20 PM	Worship is something different than receiving divine spells, of course. Indeed, I tend to think that's self-evident.;)
Old Sage 02-26-08, 12:39 AM	In our world and in the Realms, worship is the devotion of time, energy and attention to something you see as ontologically greater than yourself.
Old Sage 02-26-08, 12:40 AM	Demihumans can worship human deities. Can it be vice versa??Yes. And as we've seen in some of the lore in 1e/2e/3e FR... most races have groups that have, on occasion, worshipped deities outside their more traditional racial pantheons. Demihuman Deities notes several examples of humans worshipping dwarven deities and dwarves worshipping gnomish and elven deities for example.
Zanan 02-26-08, 04:11 AM	Indeed, I tend to think that's self-evident.;) It should. But since real world gamers are usually brought up into a monotheistic society, the borders can become somewhat spongy. So sometimes it is better to tell people about these distinctions, if only to make sure what we are talking about and dealing with.
xpochian 02-26-08, 12:15 PM	while i couldn't agree more with pretty much everyone's take on the subject, i should note that i only asked so as to prevent people from god-shopping a level out for the sole purpose of "getting cool abilities." your rampaging half orc barbarian from the spine of the world suddenly wants to take a level of a cloistered cleric of mystra? fine. give me a good story-based reason that this isn't min/maxing and i'll let it slide. lets say, that he took note of the party's mage and was fascinated at the power that he held and became interested in the weave and that there was a 'controller' of the weave (mystra) and after a horrid battle in which he was only saved by magic he started to not only respect the idea of the weave but also yearned to become part of it, or at least understand it on a greater level, as he saw it as life-saving and helpful. this of could would be developed over a few sessions and i'd probably give the player a lot of wiggle room if they spent points on cross-class skills to denote their character's interest in the subject (knowledge planes, knowledge arcana, spellcraft, ect.)
Lord Karsus 02-26-08, 12:23 PM	your rampaging half orc barbarian from the spine of the world suddenly wants to take a level of a cloistered cleric of mystra? fine. give me a good story-based reason that this isn't min/maxing and i'll let it slide. -That's exactly it.