Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HVulpes 10-17-07, 02:37 PM	With the new data on deities have a more hierarchal formation, I was curious about how people saw the new class system for the deities? For example, my favourite god, Finder, has been turned into a saint like figure in either the church of Oghma or Tymora. A cleric of Finder in 3ed would be either a cleric of Oghma or Tymora with a strong connection to Finder. So which gods will be linked together and how? Would people who support these deity-hero-saints gain special powers (and perhaps spells) and feats unique to these minor deities? Also there is mention of new deities which will be showing up in the realms. Who do you think these new deities might be? My first guess is the major deities which were covered by the Forgotten Realms Third Edition Campaign Setting in detail, will be the base for the new higher deities. What do you guys think? HVulpes
Mula 10-17-07, 06:05 PM	I think combining certain nature deities into one church is pretty obvious. It's possible that Mielikki will become Silvanus's 'hero goddess', though considering Mielikki's popularity (thanks to Drizzt), it's also possible that she'll retain her godly status. Nevertheless, Gwaeron, Shiallia, and Lurue (and possibly Nobanion) will become servitor deities, I think that's clear. If we look at the already established deity cliques, we could gather clues as to which gods will be demoted. Talos gathers Auril, Umberlee, and Malar under his wing (Deities of Fury, after all). Oghma gets Milil, but since Finder lives in Selune's realm, I think he'll become one of her servitors (along with Shaundakul). Bane might rule over Beshaba, Loviatar, and Talona. Sune will have Lliira, Sharess, and maybe Waukeen. Tempus protects and gathers Valkur, the Red Knight, and Garagos. Shar is alone? Chauntea, Lathander? No idea. Maybe Chauntea gets Eldath. With racial pantheons (including Mulhorandi), the leader will retain his or her status while all the others get demoted. Possible exception is Angharradh. New deities? Well... uhm, maybe someone for Gond?
Storm_Silverhand 10-17-07, 08:07 PM	Heya, With the new data on deities have a more hierarchal formation, I was curious about how people saw the new class system for the deities? For example, my favourite god, Finder, has been turned into a saint like figure in either the church of Oghma or Tymora. A cleric of Finder in 3ed would be either a cleric of Oghma or Tymora with a strong connection to Finder. If you're going to talk about something like this, please provide links to what you're referring to... I, for one, am not speculating at this point until I've seen your reference.
Mula 10-17-07, 08:38 PM	Storm, quickly checking the Ask the Designers thread, I found this:Actually, that's what we're doing with most of the deities. We have an idea that we'd like the pantheon to get smaller, in that the number of deities heading up continent-spanning faiths probably ought to be more like 20 or 30 instead of 150-ish. The process of "tidying up" is going to include some steps that are "in-story" and some steps that are "out-story." And we decided that several different mechanisms would be at work, just so that it wouldn't seem quite so heavy-handed. Deities like Mystra, Helm, and Laduguer actually get killed (as you've seen in the Grand History); later on we'll simply present other deities as minor gods, demigods, or divine figures associated with the greater deities who still head up major faiths. Siamorphe, for example, can just be part of Tyr's celestial court. Clangeddin Silverbeard can be Moradin's two-fisted champion brawler who goes off and thumps on whatever Moradin wants thumped on. That's where we're heading with most of the existing deities... unless some happen to get killed outright.
Storm_Silverhand 10-18-07, 07:53 AM	Storm, quickly checking the Ask the Designers thread, I found this: Thank you... All righty... Actually, that's what we're doing with most of the deities. We have an idea that we'd like the pantheon to get smaller, in that the number of deities heading up continent-spanning faiths probably ought to be more like 20 or 30 instead of 150-ish. The process of "tidying up" is going to include some steps that are "in-story" and some steps that are "out-story." And we decided that several different mechanisms would be at work, just so that it wouldn't seem quite so heavy-handed. Deities like Mystra, Helm, and Laduguer actually get killed (as you've seen in the Grand History); later on we'll simply present other deities as minor gods, demigods, or divine figures associated with the greater deities who still head up major faiths. Siamorphe, for example, can just be part of Tyr's celestial court. Clangeddin Silverbeard can be Moradin's two-fisted champion brawler who goes off and thumps on whatever Moradin wants thumped on. That's where we're heading with most of the existing deities... unless some happen to get killed outright. There are only 28 major deities with continent spanning faiths are mentioned in Faiths and Pantheons (Just talking the Faerunian Pantheon here - other pantheons are obviously regional or served by a particular race, so they are limited in scope already). The rest are all minor deities, 29 in number, some of which are continent spanning (though sparsely worshiped), but most are limited to specific regions... For example; Siamorphe is worshiped in Tethyr and in Waterdeep, and maybe has a small following in Cormyr. Go to Baldur's Gate, the Dalelands, or Aglarond and you're not likely to find a minor priest of hers, let alone a shrine or a temple. Sharess, as another example, is worshiped in Mulhorand and Calimshan, but not extensively in other places. Secondly, he specifically mentions Siamorphe as part of Tyr's "celestial court"... As of AGHotR, she moved to Brightwater, which is what prompted the arranged marriage plot... So I think he might actually mean Sune's court... However, Rich was just using her as an example and the point was made rather succinctly, so I suppose I shouldn't be too hard on him. ;) :) Anyway, to address the OPs post... I think it's an interesting idea and I'll be keeping an eye on developments to see what they actually do with it. It is something that could work without shrinking the pantheon - it wouldn't take much reorganizing with the way some deities are arranged already... For example, Mystra is the goddess of Magic, and is served by Azuth, Velsharoon, Savras on the Plane of Dweomerheart... Azuth, Velsharoon, and Savras are all "saints"... Priests serve Mystra first, and her clergy is divided into several distinct orders, including ones dedicated to the "saints" of her faith. (Yes I know Mystra is dead... But this is just an example.) I am a bit worried about applying this to the more Chaotic deities. The idea of chaotic deities in a strictly ordered hierarchy just doesn't sit well with me. Edit: I said interesting, but that doesn't mean I'll use it. I'm with Stigger, it seems largely unnecessary.
Stigger 10-18-07, 07:54 AM	I see it as something to be ignored entirely... personally. I can't quite fathom why the pantheon needs tidying up in the first place. I take interest in the phrase 'seem quite so heavy-handed' however, which says to me that it is heavy-handed, they know it, but just don't want to give the impression that they are.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-18-07, 10:01 AM	I think rearranging the pantheon in the manner that they are is always going to come off as heavy-handed, whether they want it to or not. And I agree that it's unnecessary--to me, anyway.
Mula 10-18-07, 02:44 PM	Well, maybe if the FRCG gives only a handful of real, powerful deities, those people who've found the plethora of gods in previous editions to be intimidating will find the religions of Faerûn to be more easily accessible. However, because the deities are served by a number of servitor powers, those who enjoy the myriad of choices still have that option available. :)
HVulpes 10-18-07, 03:28 PM	One thought is the question of source and direction. What if you are given a certain power from the diety which is the source of you power, like Sune? Then you were given a certain power for the lesser deity which speaks to you, like Sharess or Lliira? It might be interesting. The thing we might want to think about is asking more questions from the R&D department or Rich Baker, so we can have an informed vision of Fourth Edition Realms. I have one on powers of lesser deities which still needs an answer, but I just have to wait until later.
SgtAnjay 10-18-07, 07:26 PM	Well, maybe if the FRCG gives only a handful of real, powerful deities, those people who've found the plethora of gods in previous editions to be intimidating will find the religions of Faerûn to be more easily accessible. However, because the deities are served by a number of servitor powers, those who enjoy the myriad of choices still have that option available. :) (1)Easier does not always equal better. (2)Many are drawn to the setting because of the intricate pantheons. (3)If you find the plethora intimidating, you can pick the ones you want for your game and ignore the rest. These changes are unnecesary. That said, at least they seem to be trying to be more inclusive of those who are fans of the Realms as they've been.
gomeztoo 10-19-07, 03:11 AM	Technically, it does not seem that there will be significantly less gods (minus the ones that are offed - I feel Kiaransalee was a mistake though), just that their status and task is different. I expect there'll still be priests of Sharess. She just isn't a real 'mover and shaker' any more, as gods go. That doesn't mean she can't plot, just that she is dependent on (I guess) Sune, and her power would be a lot less. Is it needed? No. Is it a good idea? Meh. Will it spoil stuff? I expect not. .
Stigger 10-19-07, 06:38 AM	If we're supposed to ditch all of our PCs and start with new ones, how does that say it won't likely spoil stuff, since presumably the conversion won't be feasible or easy?
Willis_G 10-19-07, 08:22 AM	These changes are just part of Wizards stupid idea of how to attract new players. And it won't make any difference. Any young kids who start playing will probably just pick the name of a god and ignore anything else about them. It won't be important enough for them to bother with the details. Any thinking that this will help attract MMORPG players doesn't make sense. Those who play World of Warcraft are more likely to start playing the World of Warcraft RPG, their already familiar with the world, and can just convert their existing characters. Those people who play Neverwinter Nights, Baldur's Gate and Icewind Dale are more likely to be put off by the changes. Their games are set in the Realms and they know the existing pantheon of gods. They would have to forget they characters they play and start all over again. The only people this really matters to are those who already play in the Realms.
boards 10-19-07, 08:38 AM	I actually quite like this idea. The fact that Faeruns gods were basically a group of powers with no real links between them always felt a bit "off" to me. The racial deities are mainly an organised pantheon as were/are Mulhorandi and Untheric deities but the Faerun ones aren't. But as SS has said I'm not sure how the chaotic deities will go, especially the evil ones.
HVulpes 10-19-07, 08:55 AM	Thank you... All righty... There are only 28 major deities with continent spanning faiths are mentioned in Faiths and Pantheons (Just talking the Faerunian Pantheon here - other pantheons are obviously regional or served by a particular race, so they are limited in scope already). The rest are all minor deities, 29 in number, some of which are continent spanning (though sparsely worshiped), but most are limited to specific regions... For example; Siamorphe is worshiped in Tethyr and in Waterdeep, and maybe has a small following in Cormyr. Go to Baldur's Gate, the Dalelands, or Aglarond and you're not likely to find a minor priest of hers, let alone a shrine or a temple. Sharess, as another example, is worshiped in Mulhorand and Calimshan, but not extensively in other places. Secondly, he specifically mentions Siamorphe as part of Tyr's "celestial court"... As of AGHotR, she moved to Brightwater, which is what prompted the arranged marriage plot... So I think he might actually mean Sune's court... However, Rich was just using her as an example and the point was made rather succinctly, so I suppose I shouldn't be too hard on him. ;) :) Anyway, to address the OPs post... I think it's an interesting idea and I'll be keeping an eye on developments to see what they actually do with it. It is something that could work without shrinking the pantheon - it wouldn't take much reorganizing with the way some deities are arranged already... For example, Mystra is the goddess of Magic, and is served by Azuth, Velsharoon, Savras on the Plane of Dweomerheart... Azuth, Velsharoon, and Savras are all "saints"... Priests serve Mystra first, and her clergy is divided into several distinct orders, including ones dedicated to the "saints" of her faith. (Yes I know Mystra is dead... But this is just an example.) I am a bit worried about applying this to the more Chaotic deities. The idea of chaotic deities in a strictly ordered hierarchy just doesn't sit well with me. Edit: I said interesting, but that doesn't mean I'll use it. I'm with Stigger, it seems largely unnecessary. Actually there is a hint of a Chaotic Heirarchies: The Seladrine, the Gods of War and the Gods of Fury are two such groups. The first has a top god of Corelleon who is a greater deity, yet rules from a position of respect and admiration from his court. He gives them a large level of freedom and protects them from harm as well. The second is has a top deity in Tempus who rules with different mixtures of respect, admiration, fear and threats depending on the lesser deity. The final group has Talos as the top god and they band together from fear and threat of this god. They mostly hate him, yet know if they attack him they would be kill and their power given to him. They also don't band together against him due to the fact their allies would turn on them with the death of the top god. Just my thoughts.
Stigger 10-19-07, 09:02 AM	A loose heirarchy is a bit different from a strictly ordered one. Actually a lot different really. Depends on just how rigid the Devs intend to make them as to whether or not it can work logically.
boards 10-19-07, 09:22 AM	For Chaotic Evil, I guess you could also add the Deamon Princes ruling the other deamons on their level. I could see evil chaotic gods being organised like them.
Suin Bahhar 10-19-07, 10:19 AM	We already have lots of alliances of gods. These strengthened could form different groups among the fearunian gods. With Hammergrim only harboring godcorpses and lost duergar petitioners I could see new gods trying to claim this realm, maybe derro gods? We need some portfolios filled so a new god of magic and one of guardians are maybe due.
Andyr 10-19-07, 07:40 PM	What I'm interested in is this: will 4E's changes cause this development of a divine hierarchy with courts of the Greater Gods, with an in-game explanation (e.g. the Spellplague destroying minor divine domains), or will history be changed so that the deities "always were that way"?
Stigger 10-20-07, 04:18 AM	I'm tending towards the Weave's collapsing forcing those court things. Kinda like the Avatar Storm for Mage:The Ascension... which seems to be influencing this crap quite a bit from what I can tell.
GothicDan 10-20-07, 05:26 PM	As much as I love Mage, I don't want my settings crossing over too much, thematically. It's like trying to mix two things you like to eat, when you're in the mood for the taste of only one.
GreenKnight 10-20-07, 06:56 PM	I can live with most of the other changes, but the two things I don't like are 1) The death of Mystra, and 2) The manner of Helm's death. I don't even mind Helm dying. I just hate HOW he dies. First of all, Mystra. Is anyone else absolutely repulsed at the thought that this is how it ended for Mystra/Midnight? After everything, to end up murdered by Cyric? I absolutely despise that thought. Not to mention that I find it hard to believe that Cyric could ever kill Mystra. As for the second, seeing Helm die in a lovers spat with Tyr over Tymora's affections has got to be one of the stupidest things, ever. I can't see either of them wanting to be with Tymora, or her with them, yet they ended up fighting to the death over her? Give me a break! And then Ilmater leaves the House of the Triad, so now there's no more Triad. So much for the Triadic Knights. Now it's just a duo, with Tyr and Torm. About the only thing that would redeem the situation in my eyes is if that interloping ass Tyr decided to pack up and leave Faerun in shame, and give the portfolio of Justice to Torm. I've long wanted to see Torm replace Tyr as a Greater God, and it'd certainly be nice for Torm to be on a par with Bane. Stupid changes, all around. It really does seem like the Realms designers have been hit with a Feeblemind spell. Nevermind that the changes to the magic rules could've been explained away much easier without going through the whole rigamarole of a Spellplague, or killing off Mystra. It could've simply been Midnight changing the rules because she decided to improve on the way magic worked. Just like how Kelemvor does things differently than Myrkul did as God of the Dead, so does Midnight do things differently than Mystra as Goddess of Magic. Or they could've had her killed by Cyric as they do, now, but like Mystra's fight with Karsus, she was reborn moments later. So we keep Midnight/Mystra, but the rules of magic still change, just as they did after the fight with Karsus. Or maybe the rules of magic are changed after Mystra dukes it out with Shar over control of the Shadow Weave. Plenty of possibilities that didn't have to require killing off Mystra for good. Seriously, Mystra is the QUINTESSENTIAL Forgotten Realms god. Whenever people think of the gods of the Realms, who's the first god to pop into mind? Odds are, it'll be Mystra. So why kill her off?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-20-07, 10:46 PM	First of all, Mystra. Is anyone else absolutely repulsed at the thought that this is how it ended for Mystra/Midnight? After everything, to end up murdered by Cyric? Yes! I hate it, and so do a bunch of other people.:)
MattBlacke 10-22-07, 11:42 PM	Preach it, GreenKnight! It's...the repetitiveness that annoys me most about Mystra's death. It's almost like a requirement: Update the rules, kill Magic Goddess. C'mon, try something new, like oh, having her live? Maybe diminishing her and spreading magic out to other hands (like other racial deities having a say), or maybe using that tantalizing hooks about her absorbing the Shadow Weave and moving to TN, and restructuring magic to match the new powers, etc. The Helm-Tyr matter also seems contrived as well. I'm not saying I can do better, but I do reserve my right to gripe at what I don't like. And I'm not liking what seems to be on the horizon for the Realms with 4E.
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 04:25 PM	For me, I assumed it was the only way the Mystra/Cyric confrontation could end up. If Cyric was to remain a viable villain and THE Lord of Chaos and Evil then he couldn't let her live. Of course, she won't stay dead long in my games but it helps restore Cyric's credibility as one of the Three Ultimate Evils of the Realms.
Andyr 10-29-07, 01:50 PM	I don't mind Cyric's murdering of Mystra. The end of the Avatar series does explicitly say that Mystra's decisions (being vague to avoid spoilers for those who don't want them) may well be something she'd regret later on. Though I doubt that the authors were thinking this far ahead at the time... I see Cyric as one of the few beings who could and would destroy Mystra. He's a greater deity, has ample character reasons, and does have the advantage of knowing Mystra's true name. It doesn't seem contrived to me. A little extreme and apocalyptic, perhaps, but not completely unexpected! I'm interested in how it changes the setting.
DM_Shonuff 10-29-07, 05:31 PM	Just to chime in, I'm not liking the "hints" and "rumors" and "news hooks" that they've let trickle out. It's not enough to give me details so I can make a well founded decision on it, but they also have given enough to make me frustrated to feed into rants about the subject. I would have rather they just shut up about it all, just said " changes to the pantheon" and let it go at that for a teaser. They've stirred up so much hubub about the god changes it's made me mad because they haven't given us enough of the "why's" and "Wherefors" to make an educated opinion on it. Mystra is killed by Cryic...okay why...and what happened? Torm eats a fat one over jealousy.. okay..why? and what happened? So that being said, my uneducated opinion is...I hate it. If they're going to go about doing the whole god killing, and killing Mystra.. i'd like to see Mystra die..and take Cyric with her. Leaving Kelemvor the only mortal ascended left, mourning Mystra, but left alone with the duty of godhood on his shoulders. I'm tired of Cyric..i'm less tired, but still tired of Mystra and their drama sessions. Killing them? not necessary. Make Ao mortalize them both again...place them on Faerun and say "Here you two get this whole mortal "emotion" thing out of your system. i'll accept one of you back up. whoever is left alive...I will bring up." something like this. I Just wish they'd stop picking on the goddess of magic everytime they come out with a new edition. Enough guys..geeze! Pick on Oghma, or pick on Lathander, or pick on someone else for an edition. If they kill midnight/mystra for 4th edition, the only way I'll be cool with it is in 5th edition she comes back to kick a little celestial tail and come back with both guns blazing. (everyone loves a comback kid) and 5th edition? yeah i'll just wait 2 years...it'll come out.
GreenKnight 11-01-07, 11:16 PM	Yes! I hate it, and so do a bunch of other people.:) Well, at least I'm not the only one. :) If they kill midnight/mystra for 4th edition, the only way I'll be cool with it is in 5th edition she comes back to kick a little celestial tail and come back with both guns blazing. (everyone loves a comback kid) I was thinking of something similar. Although I'd like to see her return to life, sooner. Say a year or so into Forgotten Realms' 4E life. Just say that she expected for Cyric, Shar, or Talos to make a move to assassinate her at some point, and she planned ahead. After all, how many wizards in the Realms have contingency spells in place for just such an eventuality? Manshoon's endless supply of clones come to mind, for instance. If a mortal wizard can think of a way to cheat death, then the Goddess of Magic can definitely find a way to cheat death. And with enemies like Shar and Cyric, you'd definitely want to prepare for that possibility. And best of all, according to rumors, the new Realms will be set 100 years in the future. So having Mystra come back to life after that amount of time wouldn't be so abrupt as it is when you kill off a comic character and bring them back to life all of six months later, as you'll have had three whole generations who will have lived and died with the Goddess of Magic being nothing but a memory. Besides, Bane was able to come back to life after being dead for only 14 years. If Bane, God of Strife, Tyranny, and Hatred could plan for the possibility of his death, and resurrect himself 14 years after his own death, then Mystra, Goddess of Magic, can certainly resurrect herself 100 years after her own death. THAT is the one and only way I would EVER accept this plotline. If Mystra ended up coming back a year or so after the release of the 4th edition Forgotten Realms. It'd be great. WoTC could release an adventure where the goal of the PC's is to help bring Mystra back to life (Or, if they so choose, to keep her dead). She comes back in all her glory, and you have Cyric raging in his prison that his crime had been undone. That'd lead to even more interesting stories as Cyric has a fire lit under his ass, and now he's got a real burning need to get out of his prison before his 1,000 year term is up. Hell, you could have ANOTHER adventure where the PC's can help or hinder Cyric's plot to escape his prison. But adventure products or not, I just want to see Mystra back ASAP. I can accept her getting killed so long as she's brought back. But what I CANNOT accept is having her murdered, with Cyric doing the deed, and letting that stand as is.
MattBlacke 11-01-07, 11:48 PM	Last I heard, the 100 year jump was only for the new Drizzt novel. The 4ed FR will be starting in 1385, right after Mystra's death. Hm, her tricking the trickster (and pulling a fast one on the goddess of secrets, too) with a cunning contingency, then snickering at him from outside his prison bars. "Sucker!" Cute. :D
GreenKnight 11-01-07, 11:55 PM	Last I heard, the 100 year jump was only for the new Drizzt novel. The 4ed FR will be starting in 1385, right after Mystra's death. I dunno. The Spellplague went on for quite a while, apparently, so I doubt that the 4E Realms will take place right in the middle of all that. We'll see. Hm, her tricking the trickster (and pulling a fast one on the goddess of secrets, too) with a cunning contingency, then snickering at him from outside his prison bars. "Sucker!" Cute. :D Yeah, one can only imagine the monumental meltdown that Cyric would experience if she were to come back. As it stands, he probably views his thousand year sentence as a vacation. He just offed the *****, and now he gets to relax for a bit before getting back to work. But then she's back, and now he HAS to break out ASAP, as he can't stand the thought of her living for another 900 years before he can kill her, again.
MarkusTay63 11-02-07, 12:40 AM	First off, the reason that 4e isn't going to have a goddess of magic is because no one is stupid enough to take the job. :P And don't blame cyric, he's just like the crazy kid next door who alwys wanted to kill your dog, but never got an opportunity. Shar gave him the 'dog'. I have a sneaking suspician she manipulated events to cause the ToT, and thereby causing Cyrics ascension. Everything since then has been because of Shar's plots. It has been stated repeatedly that the Spellplague had it's roots in the ToT. Shar obviously used prophesy (she has her OWN roll of years now, remember?) to find a set of events should could put into motion to get her wish. The only person who might have been able to see through what she was doing and stop her was Sevras - and he was conveniently killed first. Was he going to warn Mystra about Cyric and Shar, or did he himself see another possible future and chose the only path that would lead to an eventual 'good' outcome? Perhaps he sacrificed himself in order to give Azuth and Velsharoon time to escape? I'm sure all will be revealed in time. Funny thing is, the changes to the cosmology are really starting to grow on me. Even though it rocks canon to the core, it does give designers the ability to craft individual religions for each of the 'mini pantheons' that will form. Before their simple was too many gods to do a thorough enough job in this regard, even spread over three tomes as it was in 2e. I think with only 20-30 of these 'groups', we can begin to see some of the religiouns really stand out in the realms - something I felt was always severely lacking in FR. Just my opinion of course, but this may turn out to be a good thing in the long run. I wish we would have got Boccob, though. :D
Stigger 11-02-07, 02:28 AM	I'm starting to lean for the 100 year jump as really being the only logical conclusion if we're supposed to have developed what seem to be magical 'traditions' and organizations as has been seemingly suggested. I just don't see the Realms wizards banding together in some weird love fest of cooperation after some catastrophe like the Spellplague seems to shaping up to be. Perhaps I misunderstood it, but I definitely got the impression that 4e is going to introduce some notion of mage organizations not unlike M:TA's Traditions or Conventions, and those sorts of things don't just form in a couple of years. So in order for it to make much sense, it would seem to me to almost require the 100 year jump. So of course that means it'll probably only be a 10 year jump, but... I think the point came across.
MarkusTay63 11-02-07, 11:35 AM	Either a 100 year (or more!) time jump WILL be required, or some form of reality-altering event (like the Un-Sundering). However, since we now know that the 'merger of two worlds' does not seem to reference an alternate timeline (reality), I think they will be slapping us with a century time-jump. Although that is more realistic then the psuedo-Sci-Fi explanations I came up with, it basically leaves everyone with on-going campaigns out in the cold. I will probably just use the FRCG as a refernce for converting to 4e rules, but I won't change the date of my game.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-02-07, 11:51 AM	Last I heard, the 100 year jump was only for the new Drizzt novel. The 4ed FR will be starting in 1385, right after Mystra's death. That has not been confirmed. In fact, it's looking more and more likely that the jump will be 100 years.
MattBlacke 11-02-07, 06:42 PM	Hm, you guys are probably right. Should've thought that through a bit more if the Spellplague was still ongoing in that excerpt. Sorry! :embarrass Still, even if Mystra (or whatever she calls herself later on) does return, I gotta wonder if it would be Midnight coming back. Maybe this is the kick in the spell component pouch that puts Mystra back as a X/Neutral deity. Would be nice for that aforementioned 'Sucker!' moment, though.
Fingoldfin 11-03-07, 02:16 AM	First off, the reason that 4e isn't going to have a goddess of magic is because no one is stupid enough to take the job. :P And don't blame cyric, he's just like the crazy kid next door who alwys wanted to kill your dog, but never got an opportunity. Shar gave him the 'dog'. I have a sneaking suspician she manipulated events to cause the ToT, and thereby causing Cyrics ascension. Everything since then has been because of Shar's plots. It has been stated repeatedly that the Spellplague had it's roots in the ToT. Shar obviously used prophesy (she has her OWN roll of years now, remember?) to find a set of events should could put into motion to get her wish. The only person who might have been able to see through what she was doing and stop her was Sevras - and he was conveniently killed first. Was he going to warn Mystra about Cyric and Shar, or did he himself see another possible future and chose the only path that would lead to an eventual 'good' outcome? Perhaps he sacrificed himself in order to give Azuth and Velsharoon time to escape? I'm sure all will be revealed in time. Funny thing is, the changes to the cosmology are really starting to grow on me. Even though it rocks canon to the core, it does give designers the ability to craft individual religions for each of the 'mini pantheons' that will form. Before their simple was too many gods to do a thorough enough job in this regard, even spread over three tomes as it was in 2e. I think with only 20-30 of these 'groups', we can begin to see some of the religiouns really stand out in the realms - something I felt was always severely lacking in FR. Just my opinion of course, but this may turn out to be a good thing in the long run. I wish we would have got Boccob, though. :D Hi MarkusTay63, I would love to see them craft individual religions for each of the gods, but I don't think there is a snowball's chance in hell that it will happen. Baker said that they don't plan to put out another "God" book. I think that the surviving 20-30 gods will get the same treatment in FRCG4e that the gods got in the 3e FRCG. If any of the Religions are detailed it will be in the novels. I could be wrong. I am a pessimist.
Stigger 11-03-07, 02:27 AM	I, for one, doubt that you're wrong in this case...
Alleran 11-03-07, 06:55 AM	Maybe this is the kick in the spell component pouch that puts Mystra back as a X/Neutral deity. I still don't get why people keep wanting her to be neutral again. It doesn't really make much sense.
GreenKnight 11-03-07, 07:00 AM	I don't see any reason why she has to be Neutral, either.
Storm_Silverhand 11-03-07, 09:06 AM	Heya, Still, even if Mystra (or whatever she calls herself later on) does return, I gotta wonder if it would be Midnight coming back. Maybe this is the kick in the spell component pouch that puts Mystra back as a X/Neutral deity. Would be nice for that aforementioned 'Sucker!' moment, though. Rich Baker has pretty much ruled out a return by Mystra. There will be no Weave and no Mystra. There might end up being a deity of magic of some kind, but it won't be the same. (ie: they'll probably make a deity of sorcerers to balance Azuth being the god of wizards, IMHO.)
GothicDan 11-03-07, 10:11 AM	There is no Sorcerer in the new game. There are Warlocks, however. I have all kinds of mixed feelings about this. I never liked the Sorcerer class, and I had issues with the Warlock class, but I'm honestly not cool with a Warlock class that is "dark" without having a "Good" and "Neutral" type class - and I thought they were getting rid of alignment restrictions/tendencies for classes overall?
Storm_Silverhand 11-03-07, 07:10 PM	Heya, There is no Sorcerer in the new game. There are Warlocks, however. I have all kinds of mixed feelings about this. I never liked the Sorcerer class, and I had issues with the Warlock class, but I'm honestly not cool with a Warlock class that is "dark" without having a "Good" and "Neutral" type class - and I thought they were getting rid of alignment restrictions/tendencies for classes overall? Blah, I forgot about that (the lack of a sorcerer class). I didn't mind sorcerers, but given the way my group treats wizards (rather casually with regards to spell memorization), there really wasn't enough to distinguish sorcerers from wizards. As for Warlocks, supposedly (going by the lore given in 3e) there are really two distinct types - the demonic type (evilish) and the fey type (goodish). Apparently fey creatures can grant the same kind of power. I would have liked to have seen them develop the class with distinct/separate ability sets depending on the source of the power. I hope they do this in 4e. (I've only ever played a warlock rather briefly in NWN2, so don't look at me for an in depth in game analysis of the class. ;))
GothicDan 11-03-07, 07:17 PM	I agree with you on all above accounts. :)
Mula 11-04-07, 12:08 AM	There is no Sorcerer in the new game. There are Warlocks, however. I have all kinds of mixed feelings about this. I never liked the Sorcerer class, and I had issues with the Warlock class, but I'm honestly not cool with a Warlock class that is "dark" without having a "Good" and "Neutral" type class - and I thought they were getting rid of alignment restrictions/tendencies for classes overall?So I happen to have some fiendish blood in my ancestry that manifests as destructive power - does this mean I have no choice in choosing how I act? Of course it doesn't. Your heritage doesn't define you, and even a tiefling warlock with infernal powers can choose to help and protect others.
Dark Wizard 11-04-07, 12:53 AM	I personally like broader base classes (especially ones featured in PHB I) that can fill several archetypes and character backgrounds without having to do any reflavoring at all. WotC in 3e went way overboard with the Sorcerer = Dragon ancestry bit, not until a while into 3.5e did we see more attention to Sorcerer = Diabolic, Demonic, Elemental, or Fey heritages. I like the Sorcerer/Warlock concept of an intuition-based, innate caster to act as a counterpart to Wizard's knowledge-based, slowly-earned caster style. I feel mechanics should clearly separate these two disparate views on magic access.
GothicDan 11-04-07, 09:24 AM	So I happen to have some fiendish blood in my ancestry that manifests as destructive power - does this mean I have no choice in choosing how I act? Of course it doesn't. Your heritage doesn't define you, and even a tiefling warlock with infernal powers can choose to help and protect others. That has nothing to do with my point, but that's okay! Because you're right. Just nontopical.
msatran 11-05-07, 01:08 PM	The flaw in this is that Cyric never should have been a viable villain. They want to tell new stories about Cyric? Cyric can put a sock in it and stick it where the sun doesn't shine. He was the worst thing to happen to the Realms EVER. Why in god's name would they want more of him? It's like building a flotation device for your houseboat out of lead. He was badly written to start, and worse written once he became a deity. Can't we just flush Cyric down into the Abyss and forget about him? I think Lemure status suits him nicely. Realistically, here's how Cyric's priests plot against the world. Disciple: My lord...how shall we destroy these interlopers who interfere with Cyric's greatness? Priest: I know! We shall bake them all little fruity cakes filled with poison, and distribute them through the network of bakeries we secretly control! Then we shall... Disciple: Sir, we don't control any bakeries. Priest: Darn! Then we shall Immolate them in the raging fire of a thousand madnesses, culled from the very blood of Imvhaerno himself. Disciple: Uhm...he'll eat us sir... PRiest: Double darn! We shall...Echidnas...Echidnas are good. I just don't buy that this faith could sustain its popularity.
Stigger 11-05-07, 04:55 PM	:rofl: The mental imagery there was priceless...
Charles Phipps 11-05-07, 05:42 PM	Dammit, anyone have a list of the changes in generic D&D that have been confirmed?
AskaniPsion 11-05-07, 06:28 PM	I can live with most of the other changes, but the two things I don't like are 1) The death of Mystra, and 2) The manner of Helm's death. I don't even mind Helm dying. I just hate HOW he dies. Mystra died!!!??? When and where did this happen??? After Lolth, she was my favorite diety. I am very disappointed in this news. So what happened to the Weave?? Helm died too?? I will be VERY upset if they kill off Lolth - that will be the end of the Realms for me.
Charles Phipps 11-05-07, 06:41 PM	Mystra died!!!??? When and where did this happen??? After Lolth, she was my favorite diety. I am very disappointed in this news. So what happened to the Weave?? Helm died too?? I will be VERY upset if they kill off Lolth - that will be the end of the Realms for me. 1. Grand History of the Realms. Cyric and Shar destroyed her. 2. Helm was destroyed also by the intrigues of Cyric, forcing Tyr to slay him. 3. The Weave is destroyed. Magic will come from the 4E multiple power sources (presumably demons, angels, elementals, and so on) 4. Lolth is fine.
AskaniPsion 11-05-07, 06:50 PM	1. Grand History of the Realms. Cyric and Shar destroyed her. 2. Helm was destroyed also by the intrigues of Cyric, forcing Tyr to slay him. 3. The Weave is destroyed. Magic will come from the 4E multiple power sources (presumably demons, angels, elementals, and so on) 4. Lolth is fine. Is the Grand History out in bookstores now? Are the Seldarine fine, specifically Sehanine? Is Lolth still a Greater Goddess? Thanks for your help! :D
Stigger 11-05-07, 07:06 PM	Yes Possibly, no word one way or another that I know of beyond a reference to minimizing racial pantheons, with nothing specific one way or another. Presumably so.
AskaniPsion 11-05-07, 07:14 PM	Yes Possibly, no word one way or another that I know of beyond a reference to minimizing racial pantheons, with nothing specific one way or another. Presumably so. Thanks!! :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-05-07, 08:12 PM	We don't know that Lolth is going to be fine yet. I will say, though, that it seems rather likely.
AskaniPsion 11-05-07, 08:23 PM	We don't know that Lolth is going to be fine yet. I will say, though, that it seems rather likely. Is she still mentioned in the "Grand History" as still being around at the end of it? She is mentioned in the recent diety article in Corellon's description. I am hoping Tiamat stays around too.
Storm_Silverhand 11-05-07, 08:24 PM	Heya, We don't know that Lolth is going to be fine yet. I will say, though, that it seems rather likely. Eilistraee, on the other hand, may not be so lucky. (Why this popped up into my head to be written, I only have the vaguest idea... Something to do with the way Mystra and Eilistraee are linked in my head, I presume.) At this moment, I wouldn't be putting money on any deity surviving without change. (I'm fairly pessimistic about things right now. :raincloud )
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-05-07, 08:44 PM	Is she still mentioned in the "Grand History" as still being around at the end of it? She is mentioned in the recent diety article in Corellon's description. I am hoping Tiamat stays around too. Lolth is last mentioned in the entry for the Year of the Lost Keep (1379 DR) in the Grand History of the Realms. We don't know what happens to her after that. Remember that the GHotR is selective rather than exhaustive, and does not tell us everything. I agree with Storm, also, that just because a deity is still alive does not mean they will be unchanged.
MerrikCale 11-05-07, 10:19 PM	We don't know that Lolth is going to be fine yet. I will say, though, that it seems rather likely. I think its safe to say that the Spider Queen will be around in 4e.
AskaniPsion 11-06-07, 12:03 AM	Lolth is last mentioned in the entry for the Year of the Lost Keep (1379 DR) in the Grand History of the Realms. We don't know what happens to her after that. Remember that the GHotR is selective rather than exhaustive, and does not tell us everything. I agree with Storm, also, that just because a deity is still alive does not mean they will be unchanged. Thanks for the info! They have changed Lolth already recently. I would love to see the Drow return to the surface and rebuild cities there like in the Crown Wars.
Charles Phipps 11-06-07, 08:45 PM	Unlikely since the Drow in Cormanthor have been wiped clean.
AskaniPsion 11-07-07, 12:01 AM	Unlikely since the Drow in Cormanthor have been wiped clean. There are plenty of places they can rebuild. I wouldn't think they would survive in Cormathor. That SHOULD belong to the Surface elves. Maybe the Drow can build a new surface city to the South. I am hoping that they eventually lose the light blindness and darkvison. I like the Crown War Dark Elves. I am hoping Lolth becomes the Core Goddess of Chaos and Trickery in 4E.
Charles Phipps 11-07-07, 12:35 AM	She's not much of a Trickster to be perfectly honest. Loth's idea of Trickery is to burn you alive and drink your soul out. Trickery is more likely to belong to Garl Glittergold.
AskaniPsion 11-07-07, 06:55 AM	She's not much of a Trickster to be perfectly honest. Loth's idea of Trickery is to burn you alive and drink your soul out. Trickery is more likely to belong to Garl Glittergold. The thing I don't like is that Lolth is portrayed as reckless in alot of books...Lolth is a plotter and manipulator. Let others do her dirty work for her ;) The trickery aspect of her I was thinking more like manipulation but I guess the domain spells for that domain don't really fit manipulation. Yeah Garl would have the more sneaky aspect of it. I wonder if Psionics will be affected by Mystra's death. Did anything else happen to any other gods? Tiamat still around? Finder needs to get killed by one of the other gods. Kelemevor still God of the Dead?
Charles Phipps 11-07-07, 07:05 AM	Yeah, I go with her as the Queen of Chaos. Lolth's insane. Cyric levels of Insane. She'll kill a 20th level Priestess and Demigod on a whim. Why? THERE IS NO WHY! :-) We don't know much but the New Realms will have Magic, Psionics, and all the stuff of old. They're just shaking things up so that the 4E need for "focusing devices" (wands and so on) will be required plus the new types of magic. And Helm, Kiaransalee, Vhaerun, Savas, Kiaransalee, Selvetarm, Deep Duerra, Landagur, Haela Brightax, and Gorm Gulthyn are all dead. Cyric is imprisoned in his own realm for 1000 years. Azuth and Velsharoon are fates undetermined. The indications are that most deities will also be reduced to Archangel Status post changes in the Realms and become servants of the remaining gods (mostly Greater) Tiamat and Bahamut along with Corellon, Lolth, Moradin, Bane, plus Garl are pretty much certain because they're Core Pantheon members. Bane is confirmed as a survivor as well. Bahamut was also introduced to the Faerun Pantheon. and Kelemvor is almost certainly one of the survivors/gods of the dead.
AskaniPsion 11-07-07, 07:14 AM	Yeah, I go with her as the Queen of Chaos. Lolth's insane. Cyric levels of Insane. She'll kill a 20th level Priestess and Demigod on a whim. Why? THERE IS NO WHY! :-) We don't know much but the New Realms will have Magic, Psionics, and all the stuff of old. They're just shaking things up so that the 4E need for "focusing devices" (wands and so on) will be required plus the new types of magic. And Helm, Kiaransalee, Vhaerun, Savas, Kiaransalee, Selvetarm, Deep Duerra, Landagur, Haela Brightax, and Gorm Gulthyn are all dead. Cyric is imprisoned in his own realm for 1000 years. Azuth and Velsharoon are fates undetermined. The indications are that most deities will also be reduced to Archangel Status post changes in the Realms and become servants of the remaining gods (mostly Greater) Tiamat and Bahamut along with Corellon, Lolth, Moradin, Bane, plus Garl are pretty much certain because they're Core Pantheon members. Bane is confirmed as a survivor as well. Bahamut was also introduced to the Faerun Pantheon. and Kelemvor is almost certainly one of the survivors/gods of the dead. Looks like the DRow will be using "High Magic" now even though technically they should always have had access to Epic Magic. It will be interesting to see what effect that will have in the Realms. Well Lolth likes ot have fun...if it spreading Chaos....so be it. She isn't insane....just bored. :D Who imprisoned Cyric? I am really suprised Mask stayed around. Most of the gods that died were mostly minor...I will admit I will miss Vhaerun even though I wasn't a fan of his. I like his opposition to Lolth. Savas? Hehe he never did anything anyway. Thanks for the info!!
Charles Phipps 11-07-07, 07:27 AM	Sune, Tyr, and Oghma imprisoned Cyric I think (I may be wrong). Mask stays around because he's the Realms "Class God" of Thieves But yes, it could be a lot worse.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-07-07, 09:03 AM	Sune, Tyr, and Oghma imprisoned Cyric I think (I may be wrong). Sune, Tyr, and *Lathander*. Also, where was it stated that the drow were totally wiped out from Cormanthor?
GothicDan 11-07-07, 01:35 PM	Sune, Tyr, and *Lathander*. CG, LG, and NG. So much for them de-emphasizing alignment in the new world.
Zanan 11-07-07, 02:34 PM	Sune, Tyr, and *Lathander*. Also, where was it stated that the drow were totally wiped out from Cormanthor? Nowhere AFAIK. We should keep in mind that even a revamped Myth Drannor has to result in a drow-wipeout. During the days of Cormanthyr, the drow held the original Twisted Tower in Shadowdale for centuries.
Mula 11-07-07, 11:56 PM	CG, LG, and NG. So much for them de-emphasizing alignment in the new world. You're reading too much into it. Sune, Lathander, and Tyr are the most powerful and most active good deities around when Mystra is gone.
GothicDan 11-08-07, 12:59 AM	Chauntea is a DvR 19 NG deity.
Toedoe 11-08-07, 01:46 AM	Sune, Tyr, and *Lathander*. These three just decided to put together a lynch mob and imprison the God of Murder for committing murder? Then what’s the justification for not imprisoning Tyr for killing Helm. One killed because its what he’s suppose to do, and the other because he was jealous.
Charles Phipps 11-08-07, 01:54 AM	These three just decided to put together a lynch mob and imprison the God of Murder for committing murder? Then what’s the justification for not imprisoning Tyr for killing Helm. One killed because its what he’s suppose to do, and the other because he was jealous. uhhhhh, One's the God of Justice? Seriously, are you going to censure the God of Justice for Imprisoning a Murderer?
Stigger 11-08-07, 02:36 AM	I'm thinking that Toedoe was getting at Tyr being hypocritical about Cyric since he himself 'murdered' Helm, ignoring the whole duel thing... I think.
Charles Phipps 11-08-07, 02:41 AM	Well, Tyr no doubt justly blames Cyric for the Helm thing. and is probably ungawdly mad. Pun intended.
Stigger 11-08-07, 02:45 AM	Well, yes, but somehow, seeing the "At the Right Hand of Cyric" bit on his location there says he's ignoring that part of the equation. Nobody is better than a Cyricist as self-delusion afterall... ;) :D
Toedoe 11-08-07, 02:46 AM	Well, Tyr no doubt justly blames Cyric for the Helm thing. and is probably ungawdly mad. Pun intended. Of course not, no more that I would censure the God of Murder for committing Murder, but that’s not my point. I would like to know why they found Cyric killing Mystra wrong, but Tyr killing Helm ok. Killing in a duel because of jealousy isn’t judicial. What the God of Justice should have done was bring Helm before a panel of other Gods and put him on trial for his crime. If putting the moves on Tymora can be considered a crime, and if it can be, I do not believe death is a just sentence for the crime. There fore Tyr murdered Helm and also should be imprisoned but he’s not, why?
Stigger 11-08-07, 02:51 AM	Not possible to answer that until we know what the terms of the duel were in actuality... and what mitigating circumstances are there... etcetera and so forth. Besides, Cyric is kinda evil and pretty bonkers, so putting him in a place where he can't hurt anyone for a while is pretty mild considering the havoc he seems to have unleashed upon the world.
Charles Phipps 11-08-07, 03:12 AM	And they didn't find Tyr guilty because Cyric was responsible for that too. Oh yes, and they hate Cyric. The gods really don't give a damn about their jobs. They have personalities beyond them.
Toedoe 11-08-07, 03:13 AM	Well, yes, but somehow, seeing the "At the Right Hand of Cyric" bit on his location there says he's ignoring that part of the equation. Nobody is better than a Cyricist as self-delusion afterall... ;) :D lol, me self-delusion....maybe. Actually I have never had a character that worshipped an evil God and probably never will, and I can’t explain why I like Cyric, I just do. If they want to lock him away for 1000 years that’s fine by me. He did do a bad thing, but so did Tyr. Hopefully your right and when we learn more it will make sense but I’m not holding my breath when it comes to WoTC.
Stigger 11-08-07, 04:45 AM	Can't say I'm holding my breath either to be honest... I've come to expect something melodramatically inexplicable from WotC of late. Though I wasn't serious about the self-delusion thing in case you were wondering. ;)
GreenKnight 11-08-07, 06:21 AM	Of course not, no more that I would censure the God of Murder for committing Murder, but that’s not my point. I would like to know why they found Cyric killing Mystra wrong, but Tyr killing Helm ok. Killing in a duel because of jealousy isn’t judicial. What the God of Justice should have done was bring Helm before a panel of other Gods and put him on trial for his crime. If putting the moves on Tymora can be considered a crime, and if it can be, I do not believe death is a just sentence for the crime. There fore Tyr murdered Helm and also should be imprisoned but he’s not, why? Ah, it'd all be worth it if they'd get rid of Tyr for good. I'd love to see Torm step up and become a Greater God, laying claim to Tyr and Helm's Portfolios.
Charles Phipps 11-08-07, 06:27 AM	Charles' Dialed Down Realms Pantheon 1. Talos 2. Tyr 3. Torm 4. Lathander 5. Sune 6. Oghma 7. Ilmater 8. Cyric 9. Bane 10. Kelemvor 11. Myrkul 12. Shar 13. Talona 14. Set 15. Umberlee 16. Mystra 17. Helm 18. Tempus 19. Miekkli 20. Lolth 21. Loviatar 22. Moradin 23. Corellon 24. Garl 25. Yondalla 26. Gruumsh 27. Ubatao 28. Chauntaea 29. Tymora/Beshaba (made different facets of one deity as a "cheat") 30. Mask You can be surprised at some of the choices I made to drop. Silvanus was a choice between Chauntaea as a nature deity plus him, the Elemental Gods added little in my view with the Red Wizards serving Kossuth the only interesting aspect to them, Myrkul I chose because he's better than Velsharoon yet could fulfill the "Evil Nerull" type of portfolio plus also Moanders, frankly I'm annoyed that so many spaces needed to be taken up by Greyhawk deities even if Lolth/Corellon are so intimately tied to thinks. If I could get Lolth, Moradin, Corellon, Garl, and Yondalla "back" then I'd add these. 1. Waukeen (A goddess of Trade is something PEOPLE WOULD ACTUALLY WORSHIP) 2. Malar 3. Eli (simply because she cuts down on "all the damned dark skinned evil people") 4. Azuth (redundant or not, he's a nice alternative) 5. Xvim (I bet that everyone will look at me weird for putting him here)
Stigger 11-08-07, 08:06 AM	30 deities... sigh. That alone is enough to keep me away from 4e barring some spectacularly good reason beyond the inane Spellplague idea.
gomeztoo 11-08-07, 08:14 AM	ooohh... I like that list. Keeping my fingers crossed for Loviatar. Maybe she can have Talona as a servant...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-08-07, 09:00 AM	These three just decided to put together a lynch mob and imprison the God of Murder for committing murder? Then what’s the justification for not imprisoning Tyr for killing Helm. One killed because its what he’s suppose to do, and the other because he was jealous. And the goodly deities are equally interested in opposing (even punishing) Cyric. So if Cyric had the "right" to murder Mystra, the goodly deities had the "right" to punish him. As for Tyr--I don't know, it's a dumb story, what can I say.
GothicDan 11-08-07, 09:42 AM	With Rino here. I've given up trying to analyze or discuss the supposed divine judicial politics behind this. There was no reason besides WotC wanted to do it. That is all.
HVulpes 11-08-07, 10:47 AM	With Rino here. I've given up trying to analyze or discuss the supposed divine judicial politics behind this. There was no reason besides WotC wanted to do it. That is all. The only thing I can think of with the Helm or Cyric business is the idea they are creating plot hooks to dangle for creative types before they fill them in with their own answers. Like Myth Adofhear (sp?) or the Harper Schism (Steven Schend suggested some interesting hints at the cause like the nature of the illness of the half-elven head of the hall or the real reason for the visciousness of the feud the three of the hall have against Khelben. For all we know, Tyr could be thinking of a way to resurrect Helm perhaps to make right his mistake and this could be an adventure hook in 4ed.
gomeztoo 11-08-07, 12:29 PM	It seems they wanted to get rid of Helm because he looked to much like Tyr.
Mula 11-08-07, 12:59 PM	Uhm, guys, everything that happens in FR books happens "because WotC wants it to happen". Chauntea isn't active, GD. Notice I said, "most active". She's hardly doing anything.
Lucifer_Draconus 11-08-07, 01:05 PM	30 deities... sigh. That alone is enough to keep me away from 4e barring some spectacularly good reason beyond the inane Spellplague idea. I agree..I was having enough issue with 4e with wargame terms popping up,now this.One of my favorite things about FR is the number of Gods.If they wipe out the fast majority of gods I'll be very irked & not purchase any 4e FR supplements.I'll just use my 2nd n' 3.x FR stuff with C&C. If they just restructure the pantheon into celestrial courts with 20 or 30 main churches with lesser God/Saints made up with surviving gods I'll consider buying 4e FR stuff.Otherwise bye bye FR . Lucifer Draconus (the Puritan)
Lucifer_Draconus 11-08-07, 01:06 PM	30 deities... sigh. That alone is enough to keep me away from 4e barring some spectacularly good reason beyond the inane Spellplague idea. I agree..I was having enough issue with 4e with wargame terms popping up,now this.One of my favorite things about FR is the number of Gods.If they wipe out the fast majority of gods I'll be very irked & not purchase any 4e FR supplements.I'll just use my 2nd n' 3.x FR stuff with C&C. If they just restructure the pantheon into celestrial courts with 20 or 30 main churches with lesser God/Saints made up with surviving gods I'll consider buying 4e FR stuff.Otherwise bye bye FR . Lucifer Draconus (the Puritan)
TionneDawnstar 11-08-07, 01:07 PM	Now I understand why they are destroying the Drow Pantheon, to make room for these new rules... which really sucks I might add. I liked the choices, and from the just the title of the last book we can infer either Eilistraee is destroyed, or Lolth is. I hope it's Lolth, but somehow I doubt it will be. From the 100 year jump ahead for The Orc King, the thoughts Drizzt has makes me think that it is Eilistraee that dies, leaving only Lolth in her place. The real question is, if she absorbs the power into her, what will that do to the Spider Queen herself? Will it lighten her like Vharaun darkened his sister? It will be interesting to see what happens. I for one am sticking to 3rd edition. Not 3.5 or 4... good old Third. From what I'm reading, I don't think I like the paths the Realms are taking.
Lucifer_Draconus 11-08-07, 01:08 PM	sorry for the double post.
Stigger 11-08-07, 03:11 PM	ooohh... I like that list. Keeping my fingers crossed for Loviatar. Maybe she can have Talona as a servant... That would be interesting considering the two utterly hate each other from everything I've read of them...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-08-07, 04:15 PM	Chauntea isn't active, GD. Notice I said, "most active". She's hardly doing anything. How do we know?:)
Storm_Silverhand 11-08-07, 04:16 PM	Heya, 30 deities... sigh. That alone is enough to keep me away from 4e barring some spectacularly good reason beyond the inane Spellplague idea. You know what's laughable? The Major deities in the Faerunian pantheon as listed in Faiths and Pantheons number... 28 Why do they think they're going to make the world better by cutting out the other pantheons? They're going from a realistic world with a few regional/racial pantheons to an unrealistic world with a single pantheon. Why don't they just make the whole world monotheistic and be done with it? The whole thing is ridiculous.
Stigger 11-08-07, 05:02 PM	Well, monotheism can't be far off if we're introducing indulgences from Selunites... though to be honest, the more I read of this 4e stuff, the more I think D&D is trying to be made more palatable, and therefore marketable to the evangelical set. A mean-spirited part of me hopes this crashes and burns to the ground really...
MarkusTay63 11-08-07, 05:06 PM	I hope not, but it probably will. I'm going to hate seeing FR go the way of GH. :( At least the novels will keep it 'alive'. :yuck:
Stigger 11-08-07, 05:09 PM	Not sure I'd call being tube-fed and on a respirator 'alive'... ;)
Charles Phipps 11-08-07, 06:15 PM	Well, monotheism can't be far off if we're introducing indulgences from Selunites... though to be honest, the more I read of this 4e stuff, the more I think D&D is trying to be made more palatable, and therefore marketable to the evangelical set. A mean-spirited part of me hopes this crashes and burns to the ground really... No offense, Stigger, but I think your serious issues with a certain real world religion (justified or not) are influencing your thinking here. They tried to make it more patable to the Evangelic sect in the 1980s. I think everyone has realized, by now, that nothing can remotely appeal to them. Of course, I'm a Presbyterian Youth Leader and my first gaming group was our Youth Group with regular D&D games every Sunday. I'm not that anymore, I converted to Catholicism, but I still insert references with Ao being God and the Christian influences of my Triad. I think the Realms has ample room for both of us and how we like our games. But yes, ANY game based on these principles. 1. Multiple Gods 2. Magic 3. Violent slaying of monsters (The three original problems of D&D as attacked in the 1980s) Will never appeal and they know this after the ludicrousness of the attacks on Harry Potter. Hence why they're Demons not Tanaari now.
Stigger 11-08-07, 08:11 PM	Interestingly, I was more basing my assertation off of the idea of the Baateezu being transformed into fallen angels... and the whole reference to devil bit kinda bugs me too. I liked those earlier names as it sounds much less generic than Demon and Devil, which are just bland compared to Baateezu and Tanar'ri, at least to my ears. Very little of the previous lore even vaguely supports the development of Baateezu as fallen celestials, though maybe the theory that Asmodeus 'fell' into Baator kinda maybe sorta could be seen as it... even if I tend to think of that bit as something that even the wisest of sages will never know for certain. It just makes no sense, so the only conclusion I can come to is that somewhere along the way, somebody decided to incorporate elements of the biblical War in Heaven, Fall of the Rogue Angels story in there... albeit with a twist. Still smacks to me of monotheistic theology creeping its way in.
Charles Phipps 11-08-07, 08:24 PM	Of course, it's monasthetic theology sneaking in. It's like Tyr being in the Realms pantheon. D&D steals from everyone, why not Catholicism. Demons and Devils are cool villains (and protagionists ala Demon; The Fallen)
Stigger 11-08-07, 08:27 PM	Couldn't stand Demon: the Fallen to be honest... bugged me on principle. I do like fiends as villains though. As to D&D stealing from everyone, I have no problem with that. I do have a problem when that stealing results in lore that contradicts, or at least conflicts with existing lore.
Charles Phipps 11-08-07, 08:38 PM	D:TF only bugged me because it was a setting divorced utterly from regular WOD Cosmology. I confess, it's a rather ridiculously large change since we already had Fallen Devas (Baalzebul being one primary example). Asmodeus was already a Fallen Deity in the Realms too. But I am interested in where they want to take this.
HVulpes 11-08-07, 08:58 PM	Well, from what Rich has hinted at and what has been seen with 3ed... these are my thoughts. I think the top twenty Dieties like those detailed in the FRCS/F&P will be the major level deities, with some editing. Those will be the major deities for the player characters... there might be more for the DM in other projects like the FRCG. Remember that 20-30 gods could mean anything from 20-39. It might also be just an estimate. As for the lesser dieties like Finder Wyvenspur (answered to my questions to Rich)... A cleric of Finder in 3ed would be a cleric to Oghma or Tymora in 4ed with a strong connection with Finder. Rich explained in Candlekeep that they would be creating Feats for explaining the deeper connect to the godling. But they had just started the mechancial aspect of the FRCG/FRPG. Just my two cents.
Charles Phipps 11-08-07, 10:24 PM	So, will the actual religions change? I mean, Cadderly as a Priest of the Archangel Deneir doesn't change anything but if he's a Priest of Oghma that's favored by Deneir then that's a different story.
Charles Phipps 11-08-07, 10:29 PM	[double post]
Meldread 11-08-07, 11:21 PM	Charles- This is how I am doing it. I am setting up churches, and rather than picking a patron deity as a cleric, you align with a church. This church will have its own unique take on worshiping the gods, and some churches (such as the Church of the Triad) will be dedicated to more than one deity. Your divine powers will come from each of those deities. However, there will be an option (likely through a feat) where your character will find himself favoring one deity over the others in the mini-pantheon. If that is the case, it'd offer certain bonuses (similar to how domains currently work) and that deity would be considered your 'patron' deity. It might not work that way in 4E but that is the way I am playing it. It allows me to create multiple churches with different takes on the same religion, creating conflict not only with opposing deities (such as the Triad vs Bane) but also inter-religion conflict. Which could boil down to: "Tyr is the leader of the Triad!" vs "No, Ilmater is the leader of the Triad!" vs "No, Ilmater left the Triad when Tyr murdered Helm! Everyone knows that Ilmater and Torm have aligned themselves with Lathander who now leads a new Triad!" The gods themselves will become more abstract and less interventionist in the world, by decree of Ao. So mortals will know significantly less about the "truth" when it comes to the divine. I like to think of this as a midway between the current FR and Eberron. The gods are real, that can't be disputed, what the gods actually want and believe however... that is subject for interpretation.
Charles Phipps 11-09-07, 12:15 AM	That sounds like a very good way to handle it.
GothicDan 11-09-07, 01:09 AM	Chauntea isn't active, GD. Notice I said, "most active". She's hardly doing anything. Wtf? She's ABEIR-TORIL. What do you mean she isn't "active"? Because she isn't "cool" enough to play in WotC's soap opera?
Charles Phipps 11-09-07, 01:12 AM	Yea, no offense but Chauntea is all over the place. She's the Goddess that everyone uses for flavor text.
Mula 11-09-07, 01:35 AM	Chauntea is quiet and slow, patient. She is NOT active in the way Tyr, Sune, and especially Lathander are.
Charles Phipps 11-09-07, 01:44 AM	Well she's a bit different in the Moonshaes.
Stigger 11-09-07, 06:50 AM	So instead of just being able to be a cleric of some 'minor' and apparently uncool god I have to waste a feat? words fail...
SteelGeneral 11-09-07, 08:42 AM	She's ABEIR-TORIL. What do you mean she isn't "active"? Because she isn't "cool" enough to play in WotC's soap opera? That's exactly how this whole Mystra Murder & Helm/Tyr Duel thing come accross to me... a poorly written daytime soap-opera. Where Cyric is the maniacal villain who they keep trying to rid themselves of, but somehow he always comes back with some over-the-top, ridiculous scheme.
GothicDan 11-09-07, 10:35 AM	Yea, no offense but Chauntea is all over the place. She's the Goddess that everyone uses for flavor text. I thought Chauntea was one of the most underused deities. As a matter of fact, ALL of the "good" deities have been underused in 3E, with the possible exceptions of Lathander, the Triad, and Mystra. Then again, the Deities of Fury haven't even been a blip on the radar... The "our new favorite deities" shtick is getting old. Chauntea is quiet and slow, patient. She is NOT active in the way Tyr, Sune, and especially Lathander are. But she's still NG, and the events that took place were more catastrophic than any in recorded history. She 'came out' for Cyric's Trial in the novel - there's NO reason she should not have participated in this one.
Mula 11-09-07, 10:48 AM	Maybe she did? We only have the little blurb of text in GHotR. That's hardly a conclusive account of the events, just a quick summary. In any case, Sune, Tyr, and Lathander were the ones leading the thing.
GothicDan 11-09-07, 11:19 AM	And I do not feel that's what should have been done. Period. No big deal.
HVulpes 11-09-07, 11:24 AM	So instead of just being able to be a cleric of some 'minor' and apparently uncool god I have to waste a feat? words fail... They are still Ironing out the powers of mechanics of the system. However, we do have the advantage of being able to adapt the system after it has been revealed. For Example... I am a cleric of Tymora/Oghma who idenitifes with Finder Wyvernspur. I take the feat that makes me a servant of Deity, but I want more. So I create other feats, powers and Prestage classes for the character. One thought is doing something like the Harper Cleric PrCl in Magic of Faerun. Gaining blessing of your choice from the deities aligned with each other. So you become a Cleric of Oghma (or Tymora) with this PrCL, you can choose blessing from Oghma, Gond, Milil, Deneir and Finder Wyvernspur. Like Gond can give you advantages in creating magic items or a strength bonus; Finder could give a power over repetilian creatures, regenerating healing abilities or the ability to track objects and people (like the Finder's Stone); Milil can give you a bonus to Diplomacy or Intimidation; Deneir can give you bonus in reading/speaking languages or controling magic runes and so on. Just some raw thoughts.
GothicDan 11-09-07, 11:30 AM	However, we do have the advantage of being able to adapt the system after it has been revealed. Which is true of every edition, of any game, so that's not really a specific argument for 4E.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-09-07, 01:25 PM	Chauntea is quiet and slow, patient. She is NOT active in the way Tyr, Sune, and especially Lathander are. How do you know that? Just because WE haven't heard much about her plans doesn't mean she is "hardly doing anything" within the setting.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-09-07, 01:26 PM	I thought Chauntea was one of the most underused deities. As a matter of fact, ALL of the "good" deities have been underused in 3E, with the possible exceptions of Lathander, the Triad, and Mystra. Then again, the Deities of Fury haven't even been a blip on the radar... That's because their names aren't "Shar" and they have nothing to do with darkness and shadows.
Charles Phipps 11-09-07, 01:31 PM	Yes, because The Church of the Risen Sun is such a dark entity... Then there's Erevis Cale's Mask Trilogy.... There's only so much space people.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-09-07, 01:34 PM	There's only so much space people. And giving that space to Shar is WotC's current top priority.
johnkretzer 11-09-07, 01:59 PM	Yes, because The Church of the Risen Sun is such a dark entity... Then there's Erevis Cale's Mask Trilogy.... There's only so much space people. Space? There is alot of space...there is about maybe tousands of Realms campaign being run at the moment. Just because WotC doesn't use them doesn't mean players aren't. Charles(or anyone) do you really need to wait till WotC publish a novel or a soucebook to run a adventure that features followers of any deity?
Charles Phipps 11-09-07, 03:20 PM	What are you talking about, anyway? I'm referring to the fact there's only so much space to detail deities. For every page devoted to Mask, a page about the Marches or Reach goes.
Stigger 11-09-07, 03:39 PM	The benefits and mechanics of those feats are irrelevant to my mind. The point of it really comes down to the alterations making no sense socially... or really on a planar level either. Screw it, I don't really care at this point. Let them do what they will, I'm done with them.
GothicDan 11-09-07, 03:53 PM	Yes, because The Church of the Risen Sun is such a dark entity... Yes, yes it is. NG -> LN is "darker" in terms of alignment, even if the Risen Sun Heresy is one of the more tasteful methods of doing so, in my never humble opinion. Then there's Erevis Cale's Mask Trilogy.... There's only so much space people. Mask trilogy.. God of SHADOWS?
johnkretzer 11-09-07, 04:18 PM	What are you talking about, anyway? I'm referring to the fact there's only so much space to detail deities. For every page devoted to Mask, a page about the Marches or Reach goes. The infomation in the Campaign guide is suppose to be a overview of the Realms. Which includes the gods... If you want infomation about the Marches you go look in the Silver Marches soucebook...if you infomation on Mask you go look in the Faiths & Pantheon. I don't get this page limit you want to impose...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-09-07, 04:20 PM	I'm referring to the fact there's only so much space to detail deities. For every page devoted to Mask, a page about the Marches or Reach goes. Where was that stated by any designers? Somehow I doubt it's "either, or" in the manner you suggest.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-09-07, 04:21 PM	If you want infomation about the Marches you go look in the Silver Marches soucebook...if you infomation on Mask you go look in the Faiths & Pantheon. I don't get this page limit you want to impose... Seconded.
Charles Phipps 11-09-07, 04:36 PM	There's not going to be a Faiths and Pantheons book. There might be another supplement instead. Cultures of the Realms or something perhaps.
johnkretzer 11-09-07, 04:53 PM	There's not going to be a Faiths and Pantheons book. There might be another supplement instead. Cultures of the Realms or something perhaps. That is a great idea...though I don't see why they need to do the Spellplague...and cut down on the number of gods to be able to write such a book.
Mula 11-09-07, 05:02 PM	How do you know that? Just because WE haven't heard much about her plans doesn't mean she is "hardly doing anything" within the setting. Well, I'm just going by the sources released. Sheesh...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-09-07, 07:02 PM	Well, I'm just going by the sources released. Sheesh... I know, I'm just giving you food for thought.;)
Storm_Silverhand 11-12-07, 04:22 PM	Heya, There's not going to be a Faiths and Pantheons book. There might be another supplement instead. Cultures of the Realms or something perhaps. If you want to see an interesting way to do a campaign setting, I'd recommend you take a look at Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay. The core book has a lot of good information about the churches of the gods, and the God book itself is everything I wished Faiths and Pantheons had been. Less crunch, more fluff. I am not a fan of the mathematical system behind the game, but the setting itself is very good and very detailed (if a bit too dark for my tastes). I suppose it helps that there's really only about ten important gods (of good, the Chaos gods get their own book, if I recall correctly). Anyway, I suppose what I'm trying to say here is that it is possible to balance information about gods (and especially their churches) and details about regions... That is, after all, what regional supplements are for (Warhammer has those too).
Zanan 11-13-07, 03:47 AM	...if you infomation on Mask you go look in the Faiths & Pantheon. I don't get this page limit you want to impose... Nay, you look first in Faiths & Avatars and then look whether anything new can be found in Faiths & Pantheons. I'd e.g. simply forget anything stat'ish in the latter book and you'd get more lore out of the former. And there definately should be a Religions of Faerûn book, F&A style.
Suin Bahhar 11-13-07, 08:17 AM	You guys seen the new article on the Greyhawk neutral and evil clergies (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20071112)? I find this format very good with the PH2 organisation structure of benefits and clergy ranks. This should be done for all the gods of Fearun too.
Stigger 11-13-07, 10:15 AM	That would be pretty handy to have done for the Realms... not holding my breath for an official version, but it doesn't look too daunting for something I could do on a rainy day at home. Could fairly easily adapt it out of the Specialty Priest stuff from Faiths and Avatars and the like I bet. Need to get a new notebook for that...
Todesherr 11-17-07, 10:14 PM	Actually, provided the major powers are major players it could be really interesting as gods will be more involved in the FR...just hope Torm is there.
Mula 11-18-07, 12:56 AM	I look forward to how they'll handle Torm. He is a popular god, both in the game world and among players (or so I've figured), but a lot of the stuff he represents overlaps with Tyr's. Wait... let me borrow some negativity flowing around here - they'll kill both and introduce, erm, Fizban as the new "paladin" god! I mean, you never know what those 4e designers come up with, those crazy people.
Todesherr 11-18-07, 01:19 AM	I look forward to how they'll handle Torm. He is a popular god, both in the game world and among players (or so I've figured), but a lot of the stuff he represents overlaps with Tyr's. Wait... let me borrow some negativity flowing around here - they'll kill both and introduce, erm, Fizban as the new "paladin" god! I mean, you never know what those 4e designers come up with, those crazy people. Well, the game designers are no idiots so whatever they come up with must be at least OK. Apart from that most of us are too loyal to D&D so we get raped and assaulted by new stuff and take it anyway for the sake of tradition and loyalty. Developers are counting on that.
Stigger 11-18-07, 10:59 AM	Todesherr... according to most of the stuff I've read, while it may be true for some around here, I kinda suspect a significant portion of us aren't going to buy into 4e unless its absolutely spectacular.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-18-07, 07:56 PM	Well, the game designers are no idiots so whatever they come up with must be at least OK. Apart from that most of us are too loyal to D&D so we get raped and assaulted by new stuff and take it anyway for the sake of tradition and loyalty. Developers are counting on that. Uhhh, I don't count myself as someone who will buy such a product solely out of "loyalty" or nostalgia.
Asgetrion 11-18-07, 08:11 PM	I am not a fan of the mathematical system behind the game, but the setting itself is very good and very detailed (if a bit too dark for my tastes). I suppose it helps that there's really only about ten important gods (of good, the Chaos gods get their own book, if I recall correctly). I agree -- the setting is very good, especially as it has always had a more mischievous/humorous ("fantasy parody") side to it (reminding me a lot of Pratchett's Discworld). The new edition actually has a lot of rules from D&D 3E -- especially combat (e.g. partial and move actions). But I am digressing here. :)
Asgetrion 11-18-07, 08:12 PM	Todesherr... according to most of the stuff I've read, while it may be true for some around here, I kinda suspect a significant portion of us aren't going to buy into 4e unless its absolutely spectacular. I agree -- unless most of the changes revealed so far turn out to a very bad joke or a bad dream, I'm going to skip *both* 4E and 4E FR (even if it means that the whole product line will be cancelled).
Mula 11-18-07, 11:39 PM	I agree -- unless most of the changes revealed so far turn out to a very bad joke or a bad dream, I'm going to skip *both* 4E and 4E FR (even if it means that the whole product line will be cancelled). Don't worry, I don't think WotC is counting solely on your possible purchase. :)
GreenKnight 11-19-07, 01:11 AM	Heh. "Asgetrion isn't buying our products. Guess it's time to file for bankruptcy." :P As far as 4E is concerned, while I'm looking forward to the upcoming 4E rules set, I'm not all that keen on the 4E Realms. I'll probably get the campaign setting book to check it out. But given what we've heard so far, I'll be going in with a pretty negative opinion of the 4E Realms. So unless that book is so awesome that it sets my ass on fire, it's likely that I won't be buying any more 4E Realms products beyond it, aside from novels.
Todesherr 11-19-07, 01:22 AM	Heh. "Asgetrion isn't buying our products. Guess it's time to file for bankruptcy." :P As far as 4E is concerned, while I'm looking forward to the upcoming 4E rules set, I'm not all that keen on the 4E Realms. I'll probably get the campaign setting book to check it out. But given what we've heard so far, I'll be going in with a pretty negative opinion of the 4E Realms. So unless that book is so awesome that it sets my ass on fire, it's likely that I won't be buying any more 4E Realms products beyond it, aside from novels. Given the sweltering heat in Swamp Land, otherwise known as Florida, isn't your ass already on fire?:mage:
GreenKnight 11-19-07, 01:32 AM	That's what air conditioning's for. Besides, the problem here is humidity. That means copious amounts of sweat.
Todesherr 11-19-07, 01:40 AM	That's what air conditioning's for. Besides, the problem here is humidity. That means copious amounts of sweat. I've never understood Floridians or those who voluntarily migrate there...:eek:
GreenKnight 11-19-07, 03:28 AM	I was born here, so there you go. Besides, there's a lot to be said for the weather. It gives women a good excuse to strut their stuff. :D
Todesherr 11-19-07, 03:44 AM	I was born here, so there you go. Besides, there's a lot to be said for the weather. It gives women a good excuse to strut their stuff. :D Hmm....Florida...I will never get it, a big, ugly swamp...
Green Elven Vampire 11-19-07, 04:06 AM	Die 4ED DIE!!!! The only deity that matters to WoTc in FR is MONEY!! Money is the head of the pantheon known as "The corporate Monkeys" I'd rather eat my own ********* than purchase a single 4ED book. And then in about 5 years when they come out with 4.5ED to make more money, I'll chew on my prostate before I buy a single book. Heck, when they come out with 4.5ED Drizzt will have photon guns and microwave ovens to cook his meat. He'll drive to Silverymoon in his Hummer and watch a skin flick at the 25 cent adult shop!! 4ED is a joke, and makes me want to vomit out my arse!
Todesherr 11-19-07, 04:56 AM	Die 4ED DIE!!!! The only deity that matters to WoTc in FR is MONEY!! Money is the head of the pantheon known as "The corporate Monkeys" I'd rather eat my own ********* than purchase a single 4ED book. And then in about 5 years when they come out with 4.5ED to make more money, I'll chew on my prostate before I buy a single book. Heck, when they come out with 4.5ED Drizzt will have photon guns and microwave ovens to cook his meat. He'll drive to Silverymoon in his Hummer and watch a skin flick at the 25 cent adult shop!! 4ED is a joke, and makes me want to vomit out my arse! 1. So you are proposing that WotC secretly worships Waukeen? 2. As an American should you not be spelling arse 'ass'...?
GreenKnight 11-19-07, 05:44 AM	It's an internet thing. And for the record, they've stated unequivocally that there won't be a 4.5E.
Zireael 11-19-07, 09:28 AM	I hope the racial pantheons won't get changed as the Faerunian parts... that it won't get grouped. And I won't get any of this even if it comes out in Poland...
FRBRAZIL 11-19-07, 11:49 AM	Aw, am I the only or someone else here thinks Selune needs more "spotlight", now that Mystra is gone? In fact, I read somewhere I can't really recall, that either we will watch Shar's power decreasing or Selune's power increasing. I must point out that the option which makes me happier is the second one. Good news?
Asgetrion 11-19-07, 07:29 PM	GreenKnight and Mula, if they can convince an old and grumpy grognard like me to buy any 4E books, they will be able to convince anyone! ;) :P Alright, just kidding -- I just voiced my opinion as a private individual and long-time customer. Of course they won't care about whether *I* buy 4E stuff or not, but if enough of us fans share similar opinions (and vote with our wallets) to the point that we are willing to skip a whole edition's worth of FR stuff (even if it meant the end of the whole product line), it's more serious and they should take note of that. I honestly think that unless they succeed in appealing to a whole new customer base (or drawing in "disillusioned" old FR and D&D fans) 4E FR might bust.
Kenzuki 11-28-07, 06:37 PM	I feel that this is the perfect opportunity for Lord Bhaal to return as either a Lesser God by reclaiming Murder or as a power serving under Lord Bane. Because with Cyric being imprisoned for a thousand years we're going to need someone to be the God of Assassins once more! Vote for Bhaal in '08
GreenKnight 11-28-07, 08:37 PM	I want both Bhaal AND Myrkul back. Bring back Myrkul as the Greater God of Wasting, Decay, Corruption, Parasites, Old Age, Dusk, Exhaustion, and Fall (Stealing Fall away from Mielikki), and bring Bhaal back as a servant of Bane, and Demigod of Murder (Stealing that portfolio away from Cyric. Not like Cyric doesn't have plenty of Portfolios to spare, after all. He'd still be the Greater God of Strife, Lies, Intrigue, Deception, and Illusion).
AskaniPsion 11-28-07, 08:43 PM	That's what air conditioning's for. Besides, the problem here is humidity. That means copious amounts of sweat. hehe yeah I am up in Delray Beach and it STILL feels like mid Summer. Thanks to Global Warming, they estimate Florida will totally be under water in 20 years! Yippee! Oh wait there is no Global Warming so they say.... So I wonder if Tiamat is going to be a core Goddess since it seems like Bahumut is. Maybe she is the Goddess of Anti-Paladins/Blackguards :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-29-07, 12:53 PM	hehe yeah I am up in Delray Beach and it STILL feels like mid Summer. Thanks to Global Warming, they estimate Florida will totally be under water in 20 years! Who is "they"? I once heard a prediction or two that a large part of the East Coast would be underwater (including where I live) by the year 2000, yet here I am.
AskaniPsion 11-29-07, 01:26 PM	Who is "they"? I once heard a prediction or two that a large part of the East Coast would be underwater (including where I live) by the year 2000, yet here I am. "They" = scientists - recent report Of course Sunny Florida, also currently has the highest number of people living with HIV in the entire United States. Over 850,000 just in south eastern Florida. We won't even go into how they were building houses and let people live there to go grow marijuana or the rampant crystal meth problem. hehe only in the swamp known as Florida. Anyway back to the better more logical world known as Faerun: Are they going to release what the Core Gods are in next month's 4E preview book?
Kiioro 11-29-07, 02:24 PM	It's quite different to simplify (what I get as one of the reasons for 4ED) than to dumb it down. As long as we have enough options to choose from, I'm all right with it. Too bad Cyric is gone, I loved to laugh out about him, because even if he was a greater deity, he didn't stop being petty. Imprisoned takes the fun out of mocking him because he can't get really angry. I always thought that Mystra was lame and any god that uses gauntlets as a symbol is bound to be confused, so, mreh, whatever. And, as long as my dearest Sharess is still alive somehow (let it be her or another goddess with the same basic idea) it's all right. Sharess can have my soul and my... hrm... yes, that. With all the hedonists around the world, it'd be normal that her cult grows. The difficult decision is to have enough gods to make multi-dimensional characters without having thousands and thousands of gods that the DM needs to keep track of.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-29-07, 03:24 PM	Well, Cyric may not necessarily be "gone". We do not yet know what the nature of his imprisonment is.
Stigger 11-29-07, 07:33 PM	I'm betting the millenia of imprisonment thing passes quickly... maybe we'll find out he secretly swiped Mystra's power over time and just speeds up the local time frame in the prison so that the end of his term comes just as the new setting opens... or maybe a couple of days later just for the suspense of it.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-29-07, 07:49 PM	I'm betting the millenia of imprisonment thing passes quickly... maybe we'll find out he secretly swiped Mystra's power over time and just speeds up the local time frame in the prison so that the end of his term comes just as the new setting opens... or maybe a couple of days later just for the suspense of it. And with the help of Shar.:rolleyes:
Fingoldfin 12-05-07, 11:27 PM	I feel that this is the perfect opportunity for Lord Bhaal to return as either a Lesser God by reclaiming Murder or as a power serving under Lord Bane. Because with Cyric being imprisoned for a thousand years we're going to need someone to be the God of Assassins once more! Vote for Bhaal in '08 Did you not get the memo? Wizards is looking for ANY excuse to get rid of gods to "simplify" the pantheon. They are not going to bring back dead gods. I would also like to see a return of Bhaal, but it ain't gonna happen.:(
Fingoldfin 12-05-07, 11:34 PM	I hope the racial pantheons won't get changed as the Faerunian parts... that it won't get grouped. And I won't get any of this even if it comes out in Poland... The racial pantheons are changing. Sorry, but check out the ask the designers thread. Baker said that some of the Elven gods will become demigod/saints in 4e and we will find out that some were secretly other gods all along.:rolleyes:
Fingoldfin 12-05-07, 11:38 PM	Aw, am I the only or someone else here thinks Selune needs more "spotlight", now that Mystra is gone? In fact, I read somewhere I can't really recall, that either we will watch Shar's power decreasing or Selune's power increasing. I must point out that the option which makes me happier is the second one. Good news? I think Baker said she will be a greater god in 4e.
msatran 12-06-07, 04:09 AM	GEV, I'll be honest with you here. If you could chew on your prostate at all, you'd be celebrated everywhere by porn kings and queens the world over. You'd make millions of dollars, and you'd never have to leave the house. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-06-07, 09:49 AM	I think Baker said she will be a greater god in 4e. It wasn't confirmed, but it is probable.:) I'm a bit disappointed at hearing that some demi-human deities were hinted at being the secret identities of other (human) deities.
Suin Bahhar 12-06-07, 10:21 AM	So unnescesary. But the idea in it self is not that bad. What worshippers see when confronted with images of their god is usually a perfect reflection of their views on the portfolio and self imaged after their own race. Shar and Selune could very well have existed before the first humans. When Mystra was worshipped by dragons she appeared to them as the dragon god of magic Keppoto (sp?). The current gods have had many faces for different (creator) races.
Soltares 12-06-07, 04:25 PM	Wow, I didn't know the bit about Cyric killing Mystra. Amazing that the fool finally accomplished something, and, what a shock!, it backfired and he's trapped for a 1000 years? Typical. He's such a keystone cop. Bane is Lex Luthor. Cyric is Otis.
Storm_Silverhand 12-06-07, 11:43 PM	Heya, Wow, I didn't know the bit about Cyric killing Mystra. Amazing that the fool finally accomplished something, and, what a shock!, it backfired and he's trapped for a 1000 years? Typical. He's such a keystone cop. Being imprisoned for 1000 years >>>>>>>>>>>> being dead. I wouldn't call it backfiring... Especially since it only qualifies as being under house arrest. Cyric will be out of there faster than you can blink (they've already hinted at this by saying that now they have freed up Cyric to tell new stories about him). However, I do very much dislike the death of Mystra. They could have achieved the same end in so many different ways, and yet they chose to go the same tired path they've already gone before... But this time it's worse, since this time she's permanently gone. :weep:
The Ubbergeek 12-10-07, 04:05 PM	Much geek rage here... Someone should not have coffee anymore. Considering how the current Mystra is disliked, will she really be missed that much?
Palindrome 12-10-07, 04:55 PM	Much geek rage here... Someone should not have coffee anymore. Considering how the current Mystra is disliked, will she really be missed that much? I didn't dislike her, and yes, I'm going to miss her quite a bit.
GreenKnight 12-10-07, 05:03 PM	I like her, too, and I'm also going to miss her. As far as I'm concerned, Mystra is to the Realms what Spider-Man is to Marvel Comics, and what Superman is to DC Comics. She's the standard bearer, and if they do kill her, it should be a very temporary thing. Certainly not permanent. As for Cyric's 1,000 year imprisonment, he's probably laughing about that. He probably thinks of it as a vacation. "Sweet, I killed the witch and now I get to relax for the next 1,000 years, basking in the sheer awesomeness that is me".
Storm_Silverhand 12-10-07, 05:24 PM	Heya, Much geek rage here... Someone should not have coffee anymore. If you're talking to me, I can't have coffee any more - the caffine is bad for my heart. I've been clean off the stuff for a couple of months now. ;) There's nothing wrong with being a geek, obviously you agree with me on that since according to your screen name you're an Uber Geek. :) (Oh, and I'm past angry now... I'm resigned to the idea that I won't be buying any 4th Edition Realms products. 4th Ed Dungeons and Dragons is another kettle of fish. There's a good chance I will buy it, but I am still going to wait and have a look at the books in the game shop I usually buy them in before purchasing.) Considering how the current Mystra is disliked, will she really be missed that much? There are many more gamers in the world who don't post here. Posters to this board represent a very small minority. This is the way it works for pretty much every official forums for a game I've ever posted on... The opinions expressed on this board are those of people who are strong fans of the game, and they tend to be representative of the extremes rather than the average. Therefore, you can't take the opinions expressed here as the voice of all gamers.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-10-07, 07:30 PM	Considering how the current Mystra is disliked, will she really be missed that much? Disliked by whom? A bunch of internet loudmouths?
Kenzuki 12-10-07, 07:56 PM	Come on guys, you know they are going to have another god(goddess) of magic one day anyway. Wither or not it's a reborn Mystra has yet to be seen. Rest assured, the devs will eventually give in and do it. But to be honest I never had that much confidence in a goddess of magic who has to take advice from Elminster.....
Fingoldfin 12-17-07, 12:02 AM	Come on guys, you know they are going to have another god(goddess) of magic one day anyway. Wither or not it's a reborn Mystra has yet to be seen. Rest assured, the devs will eventually give in and do it. But to be honest I never had that much confidence in a goddess of magic who has to take advice from Elminster..... That's the exact opposite of what the designers have said.
Zireael 12-17-07, 02:44 AM	Heya, Being imprisoned for 1000 years >>>>>>>>>>>> being dead. I wouldn't call it backfiring... Especially since it only qualifies as being under house arrest. Cyric will be out of there faster than you can blink (they've already hinted at this by saying that now they have freed up Cyric to tell new stories about him). However, I do very much dislike the death of Mystra. They could have achieved the same end in so many different ways, and yet they chose to go the same tired path they've already gone before... But this time it's worse, since this time she's permanently gone. :weep: Being imprisoned doesn't mean being dead for a god. And everyone here pities Mystra as well. DIE $ED!