Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Jax_Nightstalker 01-31-07, 01:03 PM	I just received a copy of part 1 of this 3 part book over here in Iraq. I'm a big fan of the Drow and have read every book over the years that has something to do with them. War of the Spider Queen was interesting. Out of the evil gods Lloth is maybe my favorite. After reading this new series on the drow nothing in the story indicates that Lloth has become a Greater Power and I have yet to see anything from WoTC stating that fact. What I do know there is a major shake up going on within the ranks among the Drow gods. Two drow gods are now dead, won't say who because I don't want to ruin it for anybody who is going to read the book. But I wonder what would the future be like if all the evil drow gods were destroyed?
BrianCritchley 01-31-07, 02:07 PM	I don't see all the evil drow gods being destroyed. way I see it unless they totally wanna change the nature of the drow they will need to keep lolth, and proably elistraee and an "evil alternative" alive
MerrikCale 02-02-07, 08:49 PM	I agree. Lolth is going nowhere. The others are meaning less anyway. And be safe Jax
BrianCritchley 02-04-07, 10:23 PM	well not all the other drow deities are meaningless but I think we can survive without vhaerun, shelvatrum';s death won';t cause too much crying, and I do belive if ghraunder died no one would notice
Dxzauvrinn 02-06-07, 02:36 AM	I think Kiransalee and Ghaunadaur are going to be killed in the next two novels in the series. Vhaeraun was my favorite drow deity and Selvetarm was the next so I'm ****** that they were killed off, but the novel was pretty darn exciting. I do think Lolth is a greater goddess now and from what it looks like, Eilistraee may become one too if she absorbs the other drow gods in the pantheon. At the end of the series though I think Lolth will prevail. She has to. The drow won't be the drow without her. If she kills Eilistraee though and absorbs her she'll be an uber greater deity, probably more powerful than Corellon.
Paledrow 02-06-07, 06:26 PM	Vhaeraun was my favorite too. But hope is not lost. If you read between the lines , Vhaeraun may not actually have been killed. He may have allowed himself to be absorbed by E+letters in an elaborate plot against Lolth. I mean , why would Eiliestraee willingly take up a portfolio she despises?
MerrikCale 02-06-07, 08:40 PM	I must say, other than Lolth I don't really care about any of them. Maybe Kiranaselee is OK
Dxzauvrinn 02-07-07, 12:57 AM	Vhaeraun was my favorite too. But hope is not lost. If you read between the lines , Vhaeraun may not actually have been killed. He may have allowed himself to be absorbed by E+letters in an elaborate plot against Lolth. I mean , why would Eiliestraee willingly take up a portfolio she despises? Yeah, I was kinda hoping something like that. Eilistraee admitted taking a big gamble by letting Vhaeraun "take over" for her next sava move against Lolth. Hopefully being absorbed by her was part of Vhaeraun's plan to gain power over her (like how the Spider Demon Zanassu corrupted Selvetarm when he was absorbed by him). In fact, I think there's already been some signs of that corruption. Eilistraee granted the MALE clerics of Vhaeraun there spells. Eilistraee doesn't have male clerics. I mean geez, Vhaeraun is smart enough to know that rushing into Eilistraee's domain would get him killed. Plus it was very anti-climatic to have him killed without even detailing their battle in the novel. Eilistraee is my least favorite drow deity (beside Ghaunadar) and if any drow deity HAS to die, I prefer it be her, though I'd rather have none of them killed off unless a cooler one takes its place. I do think Lolth has the game in the bag though. I think the crescent blade has been corrupted by her, else it would never have survived on her plane for so long without her knowledge. Just look at what happened to Eilistraee's temple as soon as the blade was removed. How convient was it that it was suddenly destroyed right then? Also, the sword's missing a few letters, which I think is further evidence that it's been corrupted. I believe Selvetarm's death was also part of Lolth's plan. I think her outrage at his death was feigned to fool her naive and trusting daughter.
Paledrow 02-07-07, 03:29 PM	Yah , the corruption of the Vhaeraunite spells granted by Eilistraee is also a sign of something gone wrong. Each spell was spitting out both good and bad thus cancelling the magic. This I think is a big hint.
Blood_of_Gods 02-08-07, 01:21 PM	OK, considering the nature of vhaeraun's clergy, it would only make sense that E girl would masquerade as him, how else would she convert them, they arent just going to go with it suddenly. I think it is unlikely that selvatarm's death was planned by lolth, she spent to much time out of action.
GothicDan 02-08-07, 04:13 PM	I actually think Kiaransalee might be my favorite Drow deity. I'm not sure why.
Misery_The_Duelist 02-08-07, 05:37 PM	First off, good to see you on here as well Paledrow ^_^ Secondly, I agree with what he has said and have stated other places on this matter is that Vhaeraun, as far as I can tell, has been playing this on purpose. I can post the entirity of it but I do not expect Selv to come back (tch good riddance on that one ... useless really.) I hate having to wait so long on something so important to players though
MerrikCale 02-08-07, 07:36 PM	I actually think Kiaransalee might be my favorite Drow deity. I'm not sure why. You probably think she's hot
ywhtptgtfo 02-08-07, 09:03 PM	I hope I get to see some actions from Kiransalee.
Dxzauvrinn 02-09-07, 02:57 AM	I hope I get to see some actions from Kiransalee. Yeah, I definately think so. At the end of the book Qilue said something along the lines of "now we only have to worry about our other enemies, Kiransalee and Ghaunadar." This trilogy is obviously about a complete drow pantheon internal war.
Dxzauvrinn 02-09-07, 03:07 AM	First off, good to see you on here as well Paledrow ^_^ Secondly, I agree with what he has said and have stated other places on this matter is that Vhaeraun, as far as I can tell, has been playing this on purpose. I can post the entirity of it but I do not expect Selv to come back (tch good riddance on that one ... useless really.) I hate having to wait so long on something so important to players though The reason I say Lolth planned Selvetarm's death is for a number of reasons. 1.) She had Halisstra lead Cavatina to the Crescent Blade. 2.) Lolth, knowing everything that goes on in her plane, probably sent Selvetarm to block to the portal back to Toril knowing that Cavatina would be forced to fight him using the Crescent Blade. 3.) Selvetarm didn't kill Cavatina right away. He waited for a ridiculously long amount of time before deciding to bite down. 4.) Halisstra, Lolths CHOSEN, gave Cavatina the Crescent Blade right before Selvetarm would have killed her and while she was in the best possible position to kill the demigod. 5.) Lolth took her time "running" to Selvetarm's rescue. She's a freaking greater goddess! She could have easily teleported to where Selvetarm was and turned Cavatina into puddy with a glance. 6.) Lolth didn't give a crap when Selvetarm was killed. She got angry (or pretended to get angry) but then she snapped his legs off one by one and his head. Yes, this could have been a metaphor for what Cavatina did to him, but maybe not. Cavatina is only a mortal afterall and killing a god is a feat usually only achievable by another god.
theEaterOfShades 02-09-07, 10:32 AM	I know Mask has wanted more power since his Godsbane avatar was destroyed and Cyric took part of his portfolio. Vhaeraun's portfolio would be a great place to start, so do we know if the Masked lord is going to make a play for Vhaeraun's power?
Jax_Nightstalker 02-09-07, 03:24 PM	I know Mask has wanted more power since his Godsbane avatar was destroyed and Cyric took part of his portfolio. Vhaeraun's portfolio would be a great place to start, so do we know if the Masked lord is going to make a play for Vhaeraun's power? I don't think so Eater. This new Cale series going on right now makes it look as if The Shadowlord has things going on at the moment where his efforts are being used else where.
Zanan 02-10-07, 04:05 AM	Yeah, I definately think so. At the end of the book Qilue said something along the lines of "now we only have to worry about our other enemies, Kiransalee and Ghaunadar." This trilogy is obviously about a complete drow pantheon internal war. And me was thinking it was about a few drow characters and maybe the one who's name is on the front cover as well?! Not some "WotSQ" VII - IX.
Misery_The_Duelist 02-11-07, 12:10 AM	. Eilistraee granted the MALE clerics of Vhaeraun there spells. Eilistraee doesn't have male clerics. Where has it ever said she did not grant males clerical powers in the source books? I havent seen it. I understand that traditionally it's usually just females since the male population of Eilistraee has always been slim, but if I'm missing something, someone let me know.
Dxzauvrinn 02-11-07, 01:37 AM	Where has it ever said she did not grant males clerical powers in the source books? I havent seen it. I understand that traditionally it's usually just females since the male population of Eilistraee has always been slim, but if I'm missing something, someone let me know. Where did you ever see a sourcebook saying that she had male clerics?
Dxzauvrinn 02-11-07, 01:40 AM	And me was thinking it was about a few drow characters and maybe the one who's name is on the front cover as well?! Not some "WotSQ" VII - IX. I don't know Zanan. I think Halisstra may yet have a bigger role. She may be the deciding factor that causes Lolth to win big or lose to Eilistraee. But yeah, I know what you mean. The book was nothing like I expect. Though actually, I'm not sure what I was expecting.
boards 02-11-07, 03:10 AM	Where did you ever see a sourcebook saying that she had male clerics? Not a source book but according to Ed she has recently begun accepting male clerics (before Sacrafice of the Widow).
Zanan 02-11-07, 07:16 AM	Not a source book but according to Ed she has recently begun accepting male clerics (before Sacrafice of the Widow). None of the books - lore or novel - has yet taken up on this notion. It would be a tragedy, since we have about 180 deities in the Realms and less than a handful have a restriction on genders. Why weaken this number any further? Because "it would gain her more clerics"? If she'd want them, she could always allowed them from day one. She doesn't want them both - as many historical faiths have too. Just look at the number of female Catholic priests to get an example. Eilistraee accepts females of all races (yes, that's AD&D lore and goes somewhat against 3E canon) and that is fine by me.
Misery_The_Duelist 02-11-07, 12:40 PM	There has been no sourcebook to say she has or hasnt ... which usually means that they havent put a restriction on it. Unless stated they are not allowed, I would assume that male clerics were equally accepted just not noted. On top of that, being the deity for all good drow, I dont see her as the type to restrict males which in its own way would be an evil thing just by being sexist. Do I consider sexist a form of evil? A little bit actually, but thats just me.
MessiahOmega 02-19-07, 08:57 PM	Ed has said that since 1373 (i think) that she has told her priestesses that males are allowed to become part of her clergy. the female priestess's may not like like it, but they have to respect their goddess wishes. that being said, i belive that the actual numbers of male clergy are faily low.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-22-07, 08:28 AM	It would be a shame if they tried to kill off Kiaransalee. Her divinity predates Lolth's/Araushnee's expulsion from the Seldarine, and just for the fact that she obliterated her original homeworld of Threnody I'd say that's more style points than Lolth has managed for some time. Out of the entire drow pantheon, Kia is probably more heavily multispheric than any of them, potentially about equal to Lolth I'd say. She's got staying power. ;)
Zanan 02-22-07, 09:55 AM	It would be a shame if they tried to kill off Kiaransalee. Her divinity predates Lolth's/Araushnee's expulsion from the Seldarine, and just for the fact that she obliterated her original homeworld of Threnody I'd say that's more style points than Lolth has managed for some time. Out of the entire drow pantheon, Kia is probably more heavily multispheric than any of them, potentially about equal to Lolth I'd say. She's got staying power. ;) My sentiments entirely! She's out and about for quite some time and only became interested in the Realms quite recently - by deity standards. As for Eilistraee and no male clergy, much like Kiaransalee for that matter - you will find this information in the very detailed Demihuman Deities sourcebook on the drow deities (and some minor others). There it says that she accepts females of (nigh) any race, but no males. Modern sourcebooks have simply not mentioned this bit of info, thus rooting the notion that "by default" Eilistraee may have male clergy as well. Anyway, I would have no problem if she allows the odd Ranger, Paladin of Chaos, Pious Templar or the like, but would stop at full grown divine casters such as Clerics, Archivists, and Sword Dancers.
QuenthelsChampion 02-22-07, 03:08 PM	Kir grants males some spells. In City of the Spider Queen Irae's son is a blackguard of Kir. Elis is implied not to have male clerics when it's stated in lore books that all the males aren't aloud to get divine power. In my opinion just the title of the next book tells me that Kir is the next target. "Storm of the Dead" thats just screaming the goddess of the undead. I am going to miss the white banshee...she was a great foe...Looks like im going to have to wrap up my campaign against her clergy faster then i expected if i plan to follow the books. QC
Zanan 02-22-07, 05:36 PM	Kir grants males some spells. In City of the Spider Queen Irae's son is a blackguard of Kir. Elis is implied not to have male clerics when it's stated in lore books that all the males aren't aloud to get divine power. In my opinion just the title of the next book tells me that Kir is the next target. "Storm of the Dead" thats just screaming the goddess of the undead. I am going to miss the white banshee...she was a great foe...Looks like im going to have to wrap up my campaign against her clergy faster then i expected if i plan to follow the books. QC Thing here is that Kia almost never really got involved in the Realms and even if her priestesses use some Weave disrupting spell, the goddess herself has not done anything directly and as I said is probably the one most removed from affairs on Toril. Well, we'll see ...
The Ranger 02-25-07, 02:33 AM	Anybody know Q'arlynd's stats?
Zanan 02-25-07, 04:56 AM	Anybody know Q'arlynd's stats? There are none published officially, though you may roughly guess his wizard level by checking on the spells he cast (e.g. teleport / greater teleport). If he's about the same level as Halisstra was, he'd be around 13th to 16th level in total.
Jax_Nightstalker 02-26-07, 08:15 AM	At one point the clerics of Eilistraee were all females. This was according to Demi Human gods book for the 2e. The same was also stated that clerics of Vhaeraun could only be males. With 3e I believe this has been done away with. But as you read the novels you can tell that the females in Eilistraee faith have a position of power in the church and more likely a female will be a high up than a male. Even Lolth has male clerics as shown in one of R.A. Salvators books. Out of the Drow gods left Lolth is still my favorite. Ghaunadaur is a waste of space, Kiaransalee I pay no attention to, and Eilistraee should have took a dirt nap a long time ago. But I have to say with Eilistraee the Dark Elf race as a whole is balancing out with her advances into the hearts and minds of some of them. The ooze god and the goddess of the undead are to inactive when it comes to Toril or even their followers. But it looks as if the Spider Queen will force them to have a more active role with her struggles with Eilistraee. To make things even more interesting they should throw Shevarash and Fenmarel Mestarine in the mix to really heat things up for the Drow Pantheon.
The Ranger 02-26-07, 05:34 PM	There are none published officially, though you may roughly guess his wizard level by checking on the spells he cast (e.g. teleport / greater teleport). If he's about the same level as Halisstra was, he'd be around 13th to 16th level in total. Thanks, Zanan. That was my guess too, based on the spells as well. I was just hoping there would have been a write up some place. For some odd reason WOTC seems to have stopped sharing stats for novel characters. Dragon appears to have dropped one of my favorite features -- Rogue's Gallery -- as well. It's not that I need the stats to enjoy the books, but they do allow me to better visualize the game in the books and the books in the games.
Paledrow 02-26-07, 06:19 PM	The reason I say Lolth planned 5.) Lolth took her time "running" to Selvetarm's rescue. She's a freaking greater goddess! She could have easily teleported to where Selvetarm was and turned Cavatina into puddy with a glance.. That has bothered me ever since I read it. Even as it was happening I was asking myself "why is she running to S? Why doesn't she just teleport to him or even better , summon Cavatina to her and pronounce her dead...she is a greater goddess after all.
Ioulaum 02-26-07, 07:49 PM	That has bothered me ever since I read it. Even as it was happening I was asking myself "why is she running to S? Why doesn't she just teleport to him or even better , summon Cavatina to her and pronounce her dead...she is a greater goddess after all. Maybe becuase it was not allow. She is playing game certain rules. And AO is looking over her shoulder, there is n=only so much cheating she can do. If the next book deals with K's followers form the WOTSQ module. Would we also see the return of the Warblade? It would be a sight to see a Drow show up in Myth Dannar with the Warblade. I also see E becoming NG. N form V and G form the original E. I also see this being pernament as i see a rule change in the future alloing E to have Male clerics. If anyone notice, Q in the novel made the fact that E doesn't have Male clerics, a big reason why she has a hard time converting Drow Males.
Paledrow 02-26-07, 07:55 PM	Maybe becuase it was not allow. She is playing game certain rules. And AO is looking over her shoulder, there is n=only so much cheating she can do. If the next book deals with K's followers form the WOTSQ module. Would we also see the return of the Warblade? It would be a sight to see a Drow show up in Myth Dannar with the Warblade. Simply put, gods are gods, especially in their own realm. Their powers are fully at their disposal. Selvatarm and Vharaun battled and could not kill each other, but a mortal kills a clumsily portrayed god with another god coming to his aid, in their own realm mind you, with a single swing of a blade as the said god seems oblivious to it all as it is happening....kinda lame really. They are gods , plain and simple. Lolth or even Selvatarm should have been able to summon Cavatina at will and simply proclaim her dead with a mere thought. Anything short of that really begs the question "are gods dumber and weaker then mortals?" ..I would say nay even though the books portray them as such sometimes, especially when dealing with evil gods..
Ioulaum 02-26-07, 08:38 PM	They are gods , plain and simple. Lolth or even Selvatarm should have been able to summon Cavatina at will and simply proclaim her dead with a mere thought. Anything short of that really begs the question "are gods dumber and weaker then mortals?" ..I would say nay even though the books portray them as such sometimes, especially when dealing with evil gods.. Which write up gave the FR gods this kind of power? If a god can kill a mortal with a mere thought then Moander wouldn't have been kill by Finder and Bane/Bhaal/Myukral wouldn''t have been able to kill Boram the mud gid. Also Azuth wouldn't have been be able to defeat Sarvas and seal him in a Scepter.
Alediran 02-26-07, 09:27 PM	The Crescent Blade is probably an artifact to kill gods, it's obvious that it'll grant many abilities to do that.
Paledrow 02-26-07, 09:34 PM	Which write up gave the FR gods this kind of power? If a god can kill a mortal with a mere thought then Moander wouldn't have been kill by Finder and Bane/Bhaal/Myukral wouldn''t have been able to kill Boram the mud gid. Also Azuth wouldn't have been be able to defeat Sarvas and seal him in a Scepter. Allot of portrayals of gods being defeated by mortals are absurd. That is why there are so many discussions on this topic. It is absurd that Cavatina killed Selvatarm the way she did. That is why everyone is now thinking that the blade itself killed Selvatarm not Cavatina. They are gods...not mortals. They should be portrayed as such. One of the few authentic portrayals of a god I have seen so far was in the begining of the last book in the WotSQ series. In that scene we see Vhaeraun going where he pleases when he pleases regardless of the alarms, locks or anything short of another god barring his way. He also puts fear into a mighty demon merely by his presence alone. So much so that the demon refuses to make eye contact knowing that any slight would be his instant demise..as Vhaeraun demonstrates in that same scene by yanking out one of his hearts and showing it to him then putting it back in.. This being a demon that could easily kill most mortals. Anyway, point being, they are gods, not mortals. Portray them as such or it becomes absurd.
Dxzauvrinn 02-27-07, 12:07 AM	Allot of portrayals of gods being defeated by mortals are absurd. That is why there are so many discussions on this topic. It is absurd that Cavatina killed Selvatarm the way she did. That is why everyone is now thinking that the blade itself killed Selvatarm not Cavatina. They are gods...not mortals. They should be portrayed as such. One of the few authentic portrayals of a god I have seen so far was in the begining of the last book in the WotSQ series. In that scene we see Vhaeraun going where he pleases when he pleases regardless of the alarms, locks or anything short of another god barring his way. He also puts fear into a mighty demon merely by his presence alone. So much so that the demon refuses to make eye contact knowing that any slight would be his instant demise..as Vhaeraun demonstrates in that same scene by yanking out one of his hearts and showing it to him then putting it back in.. This being a demon that could easily kill most mortals. Anyway, point being, they are gods, not mortals. Portray them as such or it becomes absurd. I agree with everything Pale Drow has posted on this thread. That's part of the reason I haven't posted much.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-27-07, 12:37 AM	He also puts fear into a mighty demon merely by his presence alone. So much so that the demon refuses to make eye contact knowing that any slight would be his instant demise..as Vhaeraun demonstrates in that same scene by yanking out one of his hearts and showing it to him then putting it back in.. This being a demon that could easily kill most mortals. A demon could easily kill most mortals, and if history is any consideration, an archfiend is going to slaughter virtually any god that waltzes into his domain. There's a reason that deities seek to avoid getting involved in the internal politics of the fiends and virtually anything to do with the Blood War. Inthracis (the 3e FR bizarro Anthraxus) is such an archfiend. A living personification of its plane. Something representing a force more basic and intrinsic to reality than Vhaeraun could ever hope to be. If we assume cosmological consistancy and prior lore on the topic, Vhaeraun should have been made an example of in ways of the sort that terrify Kiaransalee as she sits terrified of the wrath of a newly risen Orcus. On Toril or any other world on the prime material it's a different matter entirely, but on the lower planes themselves, it's a cold day in Phlegethos if a relatively minor god is going to stand a chance of confronting an archfiend or any other planar lord. Portray gods as powerful and competant, but keep their role in perspective, and keep in mind the relationship of gods and similar but non-deific beings, especially who has what power where.
Paledrow 02-27-07, 02:35 AM	A demon could easily kill most mortals, and if history is any consideration, an archfiend is going to slaughter virtually any god that waltzes into his domain. There's a reason that deities seek to avoid getting involved in the internal politics of the fiends and virtually anything to do with the Blood War. Inthracis (the 3e FR bizarro Anthraxus) is such an archfiend. A living personification of its plane. Something representing a force more basic and intrinsic to reality than Vhaeraun could ever hope to be. If we assume cosmological consistancy and prior lore on the topic, Vhaeraun should have been made an example of in ways of the sort that terrify Kiaransalee as she sits terrified of the wrath of a newly risen Orcus. On Toril or any other world on the prime material it's a different matter entirely, but on the lower planes themselves, it's a cold day in Phlegethos if a relatively minor god is going to stand a chance of confronting an archfiend or any other planar lord. Portray gods as powerful and competant, but keep their role in perspective, and keep in mind the relationship of gods and similar but non-deific beings, especially who has what power where. I do disagree. If the prior lore you are refering to treats arch fiends as far more powerful then Gods then your lore is bereft from tangible classic view, as I know many would agree, a god is and should be of the highest order, not fiends or arch fiends. 1) As I said , and know many agree, the portrayal of Vharaun making this arch fiend quake for his very life, knowing that his greatest powers are child's play to Vhaeraun, so much so that he couldn't even meet his eyes, now that is a god. 2) If you examine the chapter in question further, you see this "fiends" reverence for the god in collecting his blood. He finds even the blood of the god a treasure indeed with mysteries and powers beyond what he could regularly obtain. ...that is a god. 3) Even more, Vhaeraun promises the demon all his political hearts desire if he just fulfills a request of the god's. In other words, all the eons of political fights Inthracis has been involved in, Vhaeraun promises to "wave his hands" and make it all so for Inthracis as if it were a minor thing for Vhaeraun to do...as it should be. To be crystal clear here, Vhaeraun sees ALL these fiends as insignificant and he can kill them at his whim, find them no matter where they go, can walk into their layer unnaccosted and unstopped as was portrayed in the chapter in question. And what we can see from this chapters portrayal, is that the fiend knows this to be true. The chapter is chocked full of descriptions of Inthracis's living tower not even being able to bare the evil presence of the god since it radiates so powertfully. Even Inthracis feels that power and knows his very life hangs on a word... Again I say, THAT is a god, and that is how a god should be portrayed. (and is portrayed as I demonstrated). But you know, that is just my opinion and I know others agree and others disagree, you are free to disagree :D One last thing though that I DO agree with you on is we need more competant portrayals of the gods, especially the evil ones. These bumbling boob like portrayals ( I.E. Bane, Cyric, and Selvatarm) just makes you shake your head in disgust at the rudimentary, cliche' nature of how some authors view good vs evil
Stigger 02-27-07, 02:52 AM	Well, Shemeska's fiendish apologist tendencies aside, as far as canon goes, he's correct. Whether or not that canon is correct from a historical and/or theological point of view is another matter entirely.
Paledrow 02-27-07, 02:57 AM	Well, Shemeska's fiendish apologist tendencies aside, as far as canon goes, he's correct. Whether or not that canon is correct from a historical and/or theological point of view is another matter entirely. Yes, I do fear we tread on shakey religious grounds in this argument haha :D But I have always seen the gods as the highest on the pecking order by leaps and bounds. Putting stats on gods is also an absurd idea, imho. But as I have shown from my example, I am not the only one who feels this way. Even some of the authors feel the same. It makes more sense cosmology wise. If you follow the cosmology by its lore (books wise not manuals) then it is demonstrated over and over that the gods are supposed to be the major players , not fiends or any other beings for that matter. If I am not mistaken AO is top dog, AO created the gods ( not the fiends) to rule over his creation and balance it. That basic tenent alone would , in my mind, proclaim the superiority of the gods, would it not?
Stigger 02-27-07, 03:04 AM	Could hardly agree with that more really. God isn't much of a god if it can't take on a single demon. That seems to be too much of a judeo-christian holdover in the rules to me, more than something that actually makes sense. The whole "well, yeah, he is an evil deity and you can choose him as a patron, but hey, look, that archfiend over there is really much, much worse, so don't get upset nice mr. religious conservative." line of reasoning tends to grate me no end.
Paledrow 02-27-07, 03:25 AM	Could hardly agree with that more really. God isn't much of a god if it can't take on a single demon. That seems to be too much of a judeo-christian holdover in the rules to me, more than something that actually makes sense. The whole "well, yeah, he is an evil deity and you can choose him as a patron, but hey, look, that archfiend over there is really much, much worse, so don't get upset nice mr. religious conservative." line of reasoning tends to grate me no end. Yes, that is essentially my basic point. "its a god". "God" is a word inspiring thoughts of incredible power of the highest order, and the FR cosmology does not neccessarily disagree with that. But to say this demon over there can slap around a god just smacks of absurd, whether its in some rule book or not. Also, what makes a god even more interesting then a fiend is the fact that they are not so strictly defind by their origins, but instead by their portfolio. They can grow or diminish and even theoretically change aligniment according to their portfolio. They have many aspects and can be in thousands of places and minds at once. A fiend cannot. A fiend is what a fiend is...evil...that's about it.
Zanan 02-27-07, 04:45 AM	The do's and don't's of FR deities were cast in stone with the Faiths & Avatars series, very detailed and so far not equalled. The F&P attempts on deity stats (not avatar stats) don't do the former book's deity description any justice. Methinks that only Intermediate and Greater Powers were capable of slaying mortals outright, hence Azuth or Moander were a bit helpless in this respect. Anyway, coming to think of it, Lolth may have empowered the Crescent Blade in her role as Zinzerena*, that aspect of hers dedicated for assassins, chaos, and illusions. Zinzerena, goddess of the outcasts ... When did the Crescent Blade started talking, BTW? See Demihuman Deities with regards to Lolth posing as her within Realmspace.
Jax_Nightstalker 02-27-07, 08:38 AM	According to the 2e rules on the gods only Greater Powers have the power to kill a mortal with a mere thought. I believe Faiths and Avatars plus the book On Hollowed Grounds makes this statement. The thing about the Greater Powers is though they won't go around offing mortals with a mere thought, that right there would get AO involved where they are messing with the balance. Intermediate Powers have the power to arrange terrible accidents that would get a person killed, Beshaba the goddess of accidents and random mischief would be a good example and prehaps even Umberlee the ***** Queen, for even though she is a Intermediate Power she could create a huge wave of water to down a ship in the sea.
Zireael 02-27-07, 09:05 AM	Saying about a drow in Myth Drannor with the Warblade - what do you think about it?
Alediran 02-27-07, 11:51 AM	Saying about a drow in Myth Drannor with the Warblade - what do you think about it? They can't use it, unless they are of good alignment and have the well being of Myth Drannor over the well being of themselves, not mentioning the other requirements.
Zanan 02-27-07, 12:28 PM	The Warblade is safely stored in an Underdark shrine, as anyone who carefully read Lost Empires of Faerűn will know ...
QuenthelsChampion 02-27-07, 12:42 PM	OK ok ok. I was posting this on a different thread but since the idea made so much sense i will share it hear too. *spoiler* Everyone is asking why Lolth didnt come to Selvetarms rescue and kill Cavatina with a thought. Simple. It was a trick. The Cresent Blade to me fondest memory didn't talk in WotSQ. Now it states on the blade "i will fail you" and talks about being selfish and killing gods? The blade wasn't meant to kill any god it was trully meant to only kill Lolth. So why give Cavatina the blade? Lolth killed Selvetarm because he was a traitor. Now she has his portfolios floating around and no one to guard her back if anything happens. She WANTS Cavatina to have the blade. She wants to find a new champion one with trust and loyalty. And what drow goddess has that for every member? Elis. So it makes sense to steal one of her worshippers to become her new champion. Cavatina has the ruthlessness and cunning of any Lolthite i ever seen. Almost has the same kind of anger as my Mistress Quenthel. Cavatina also has blinding faith. Something Quenthel misses. With Halisstra "betraying" Lolth and giving her the blade opens for Halisstra to show the power of Lolth and how to unlock Cavatina's darker side. This is a trick trully worthy of the Spider Queen not her little son Vhaerun. Who trully is absorbed by Elis. Should be fun to see the rest unfold. QC
Ioulaum 02-27-07, 12:54 PM	The Warblade is safely stored in an Underdark shrine, as anyone who carefully read Lost Empires of Faerűn will know ... However the city the temple is in has been mention in the novel. K's follower has been link to the city and if the novel is about followers of K. I can see a possiblity of the recovery of the Warblade. Which would also fit in with the return of the Elves to the mainland and changes to the status quo of the Drow.
Ioulaum 02-27-07, 01:00 PM	Yes, I do fear we tread on shakey religious grounds in this argument haha :D But I have always seen the gods as the highest on the pecking order by leaps and bounds. Putting stats on gods is also an absurd idea, imho. But as I have shown from my example, I am not the only one who feels this way. Even some of the authors feel the same. It makes more sense cosmology wise. If you follow the cosmology by its lore (books wise not manuals) then it is demonstrated over and over that the gods are supposed to be the major players , not fiends or any other beings for that matter. If I am not mistaken AO is top dog, AO created the gods ( not the fiends) to rule over his creation and balance it. That basic tenent alone would , in my mind, proclaim the superiority of the gods, would it not? AO is top dog for 1 crystal sphere. He create most of the gods on Toril except for the interlopers. BUT he did not creat the fiends. There are fiends that are older then most gods. Gods raise and Fall but a fiends sticks around forever.
Paledrow 02-27-07, 02:39 PM	Just a note: When I said kill a mortal with a thought I was speaking somewhat rhetorically. I was emphasizing the power of a god compared to a mortal. Also, I stated that the only thing that really limits gods are other gods. Mortals who worship a certain god become that god's territory. Thus, if a god tries to kill him/her, then that god is treading on another god's territory and opens himself to reprisal. Essentially, this limits gods to using their powers wisely and not at a whim.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-27-07, 06:24 PM	Yes, that is essentially my basic point. "its a god". "God" is a word inspiring thoughts of incredible power of the highest order, and the FR cosmology does not neccessarily disagree with that. But to say this demon over there can slap around a god just smacks of absurd, whether its in some rule book or not. Except it's unfortunately not something that has held true for deities in FR as compared to other mythologies, be they poly, heno, monotheistic or otherwise. D&D gods are awesomely powerful, but they have boundaries to that power, and given what they are and what they aren't, when push comes to shove against an archfiend, slaad lord, or other similar being, when it's on the home plane of whatever planar lord we're talking about, the god is out of their league 9 times out of 10. But again outside of the home plane(s) of an archfiend or other being, the deity is going to have the advantage because their power isn't intrinsically linked to an alignment/plane, but on the gestalt power of their base of worship. And regarding the interaction of Inthracis and Vhaeraun, for as much as I respect the author, their writing style, and having enjoyed watching the evolution and maturation of their particular style, the portrayal of fiends (arch or otherwise) came up somewhat short in terms of adherence to the body of lore pertaining to them. But that's neither here nor there and I don't want to make an issue of it (it was still a very good book). Also, what makes a god even more interesting then a fiend is the fact that they are not so strictly defind by their origins, but instead by their portfolio. They can grow or diminish and even theoretically change aligniment according to their portfolio. They have many aspects and can be in thousands of places and minds at once. A fiend cannot. A fiend is what a fiend is...evil...that's about it. Is it flexibility or transience? All depends of who's making the judgement I suppose, but lemme explain my position a bit more. The fiends, or other exemplar outsiders are as I said, living manifestations of a primal concept/alignment/plane some of whom predate the very existance of gods, mortal life, even the prime material plane itself, whereas a deity is -when you boil it down a bit- whatever their worshippers believe them to be in many respects. A god in D&D can be seen as an ideal or concept not as the concept actually exists in its raw, primal state, but as to how it is viewed and understood (or misunderstood) by the body of worshippers who sustain and empower that god. Both the status of an archfiend and a mortal-empowered god are radically different things, both of which have their advantages and disadvantages, and their own respective spheres of influence. A slug fest between Charon the Marraenaloth Lord and Umberlee, or between Prince Levistus of Baator and Set, comes down ultimately to where the conflict is taking place. Neither trumps the other without defining the playing field, but in the home of an archfiend or the deific domain of a god the question isn't a difficult one: the intruder is making a mistake.
Shemeska the Marauder 02-27-07, 06:27 PM	And because no thread talking about the subject even tangentially can't benefit from it, I couldn't pass up the chance to post this again (and I even play nice and in a fit of whimsy used the 3e FR cosmology for it, sort of, kinda, in-context I suppose). “They think themselves safe…” The statement was said with derisive amusement by one of the small group of figures who sat silently upon a hillside of obsidian and ash in the Barrens of Doom and Despair. They had arrived out of nothingness and their presence was unknown to any of the true deities that called home to the plane, even Bane, the god of tyranny, whose divine realm they overlooked with cold, dead, serpent-like eyes devoid of pity. “Children afraid of the dark, pulling their bed sheets above their heads to hide from the shadows and the beasts of their imagination.” Another of the figures said with a sneer upon colorless lips, bleached of health and ravaged by age and disease. “Not every beast is imaginary, and much to their misery, neither are we.” The third of the group said with some grim sense of pride. It hunched upon a rock and tilted its head to gaze at what they had found when Toril had simply vanished. Below them, marching across the plane were groups of wriggling larvae, flopping about on the barren expanse like so many slowly suffocating fish, all of them deprived of water. The first of the Gloom Father turned to regard the others, naked just as they were, a mockery of all that was good and clean: spiritual perversion made flesh. “Let them think that they’ve succeeded. Let them feel confident in their attempts to remove themselves from the reach of powers and beings that existed before they first had the temerity to call themselves divine. Let them have their taste of pride, that most bitter of sins.” The second looked over the miles in an instant, piercing the walls of the fortress of Bane and regarding the face of the Faerunian god of harsh and brutal law. The deity never noticed. Watching that look of smug confidence upon the face of the god, the Baern turned to its brethren and addressed them. “This presents us with an opportunity. A new set of variables, a new chance to begin the great experiment and examine the progress from an earlier stage and without our presence being known.” The third looked up, “Reproduce the fiends of the former creation here in this place, this shallow pool upon the rocky shore of a much vaster ocean.” The first replied, “Sooner or later the tide will come rushing in to swallow it…” And so they took action, catching many of the wriggling larvae in their hands and creating an example each of the three fiends: Tanar’ri, Baatezu, and Yugoloth. This time they were different, though to anyone not of the proper appreciation for their art, for those exquisite perversions, they would have simply comprehended the brushstrokes of geniuses, unaltered from the previous masterworks, even if the second attempt was intentionally altered and weaker. They worked their influence subtly, driving the bitter seeds of their influence into the fertile soil that had been forged in the idle actions of Toril’s overgod and given to his wards to play with, safely isolated in their playground and sheltered from the things of their nightmares. But, as with all such thing, evil seeps through. Baator was born anew, nearly a carbon copy of the true plane on the other side of the invisible barrier of the two cosmoses, and at the same time the Abyss festered and erupted into being. Where the two merged and clashed, the Blood Rift was extruded from the passage of its own analogue of the Styx, forming a dim reflection of Gehenna and the Waste. The Baern saw what they had created and they watched as the deities of Toril, Ao’s foundling children stood and were uncertain as to what it meant. Lathander demanded that it be scoured from existence. Set declared it a vile trick of his former pantheon that should be cast away, even as he wriggled his influence among the fiends that emerged from the larvae. Shar howled in rage as something more for her to destroy in the end of all things presented itself, and Selune was troubled by it all. Oghma glanced out over those planes and was concerned, for they had not been in their plans to create themselves a haven for themselves and their worshippers. But perhaps it was simply a natural occurrence, something that they would have to account for. Surely, that was all it was. Surely nothing had followed them… And so it progressed, just as before, and the Gloom Fathers watched as a new Blood War erupted, only this time they did not actively guide their children, nor did they consider them favored. All of it was an idle experiment and eventually they might sterilize it and begin again, but not before punishing the ignorant babes, the so-called gods, who had dared to create what they did not understand and who had thought themselves free of things beyond their ken. The first smiled as he gazed out over the blasted landscape of the Blood Rift and listened to the screams, a pale visage of what would come in time when they danced upon the bodies of the unlamented dead within the silvery void of the Astral. And at that moment, the gods of Toril felt a shadow pass over their graves, a familiar one, and then it was gone like smoke on the wind. “Did you miss us?…”
ripvanwormer 02-27-07, 11:29 PM	I do disagree. If the prior lore you are refering to treats arch fiends as far more powerful then Gods then your lore is bereft from tangible classic view, "Tangible classic view?" What on earth are you talking about? The only thing I can imagine that you might mean is the monotheistic conceit of an all-powerful Deity who permits antagonistic forces to exist temporarily, but will inevitably defeat them in the end. It should be obvious that this has nothing to do with D&D or the Forgotten Realms cosmos, where there are a variety of powers and forces that exist in an uneasy balance. The distinction you're trying to make between archfiends and gods is based on assumptions that have no bearing on the setting at hand. With no omnipotent forces (except, conceivably, Ao, who is of an order above either gods or fiends, and takes no sides between them) at hand, there's no rational justification for the "classic" order you're endorsing. The actual "classics" of mythology are filled with examples of monstrous, demonic forces fighting the gods on equal terms - Typhon, Apep, Tiamat, Leviathan, etc. - and I'm afraid your "lore" is sadly bereft of that genuinely classical view. The lore of the game is clear that beings like Demogorgon, Yeenoghu, Levistus, Kostchtchie, Orcus, and Asmodeus exist on a level similar to these nemeses of the gods of old. There are numerous cases of them battling the gods on an equal level. This is the role they play in the game, not of subordinate lackeys to deities of any alignment. Evil deities can certainly have subordinate fiends in their employ, of course - they just don't have the power or authority to enforce their whims on the rulers of the fiendish realms. The purely subjective argument that "god" is a word that sounds impressive is easily countered by the fact that "archfiend" is a word that's equally impressive. It is, after all, a title of Satan himself in Christianity, the great tempter, the Adversary, called by some the God of This World.
GothicDan 02-27-07, 11:53 PM	I do disagree. If the prior lore you are refering to treats arch fiends as far more powerful then Gods then your lore is bereft from tangible classic view, as I know many would agree, a god is and should be of the highest order, not fiends or arch fiends. And there are numerous cases of Lower Planar Lords equaling or besting deities (Asmodeus kiicking the entire Goblin pantheon out of Baator, for example).
GothicDan 02-27-07, 11:56 PM	The actual "classics" of mythology are filled with examples of monstrous, demonic forces fighting the gods on equal terms - Typhon, Apep, Tiamat, Leviathan, etc. - and I'm afraid your "lore" is sadly bereft of that genuinely classical view. And Geryon!
Stigger 02-28-07, 12:48 AM	The purely subjective argument that "god" is a word that sounds impressive is easily countered by the fact that "archfiend" is a word that's equally impressive. It is, after all, a title of Satan himself in Christianity, the great tempter, the Adversary, called by some the God of This World. And that's precisely my problem with the concept... the historical place that those archfiends fulfill is replaced within the D&D cosmology by the various gods of the lower planes, making them redundant in a lot of respects, at least in my view. Either the evil deities or the archfiends are the paragons and epitomies of evil in the world, not both... before you even say it, I know that's not canon, and it never has been, but it makes more sense to me that way, since I think they're both springing from the same mythological and theological source ultimately.
GothicDan 02-28-07, 01:58 PM	No? All of the above-named monsters were actually present in religions, and they were notably separated from the established 'gods' of the various pantheons, whether evil or good.
Stigger 02-28-07, 04:13 PM	A world shattering monster of legend isn't quite the same thing as archfiend... it occupies a niche within religions as unique nemesi of the gods and ushers of the end of the world. Their concerns seemed more focussed on destroying the gods rather than upon the humans, who'd just be a happy side bonus from killing those gods.
BrianCritchley 02-28-07, 05:44 PM	honestly I've always seen the arch fiends as "wanna be, but not quite there yet, gods" basicly demons in the process of ascending to divinity.
Stigger 02-28-07, 06:02 PM	That approach would make sense to me... but with the whole granting spells and having followers thing, it undermines that premise and purpose of having evil deities in the first place. Personally, I'd like to see the whole concept and approach to archfiend revised and in a lot of ways nerfed.
ripvanwormer 03-01-07, 02:41 AM	Either the evil deities or the archfiends are the paragons and epitomies of evil in the world, not both... I agree. The archfiends are the paragons and epitomes of evil. They're the incarnations, the physical and spiritual manifestations and rulers of the evil alignments. The evil deities are nothing like that. They're simply deities, the same as good deities are. They're more unpleasant to be around, but they're not the incarnations of evil in the way fiends are. Gods are good or evil in the way that mortals are good or evil - no more and no less. Fiends, archons, eladrins, and so on represent their alignments in a much more intense way - they are their alignments, ideals made flesh. And their rulers are the ultimate manifestations of these ideals. The gods, whether good or evil, have an entirely different role in the game. Bane is god of tyranny, but he can't hold a candle to Asmodeus when it comes to being lawful evil.
createvmind 03-01-07, 03:22 AM	I too recall ED last year speaking on Eli's clergy and that while not in significant numbers there are indeed male clerics, the males have difficulties advancing due to the previous status quo but they do exist and have for awhile unbeknownst to most of her lower priestess.
Stigger 03-01-07, 07:37 AM	Alright Rip, I see your point. Damned good one too, that I can't find flaw with. Don't know if I agree that a archfiend should be able to challenge a god though... but through that lense you just popped up I could see where it would make sense that they would be able to... hmmm, now I really have to go and rethink some things.
Jax_Nightstalker 03-01-07, 10:52 AM	And there are numerous cases of Lower Planar Lords equaling or besting deities (Asmodeus kiicking the entire Goblin pantheon out of Baator, for example). According to the Codex II Baator belongs to Asmodeus completely. It's a plane he discovered and made a deal with the good gods of the upper planes to live in to punish mortals for their sins. I'm guessing since a contract was made between him and the upper planar gods Baator comes completely under his control and the evil gods live there at his whim. Same can be said of about the Demonweb Pits, the plane belongs to Lloth and she decides who can live there and who can't. Even though she is a goddess.
Zardnaar 03-05-07, 08:13 PM	Sigh god I hate 2nd ed Planescape for alot of the BS in it. We're in 3.5 now and gods>archfiends. The most powerful of archfiends stat wise could take on and defeat some of the weakest demigods mano a mano. The Yugoloth in the War of the Spide Queen wasn't exacly in the same league as Asmodeus or Orcus so Vaeruan could do whatever he wanted to him. When people talk about the "history" of Archfiends in D&D it was only really in planescape they added a whole heap of BS that made archfiends on par with deities. In 1st ed they were just a tough demon/devil for high level PCs to take on. Theres a reason planescape got canned. Very few people played it hence low sales hence dead campaign setting. Ravenloft and Dragonlance for example were both reprinted in 3.0/3.5 so I would take anything planescape with a grain of salt. In the current aveture path in Dungeon magazine it looks like Demogorgon will take a tumble to a group of level 20-21 adventurers. Theres probably alot of reasons why the god don't go archfiend hunting even if they have the power to kill every one of them. Giving gods stats was probably a big mistake in 3.0 with eities and Demigods and they seem to be focusing more on aspects in 3.5 as even Avatars of various gods were alot tougher than they were in 2nd ed and even tougher than full on lesser powers if various greater powers manifested one. Only Asmodeus and Orcus have the experience and "power" to challenge a god IMHO and even then they're more or less limited to demi gods or lesser powers. On his home turf Asmodeus might be able to hold his own vs a stronger god then again maybe not. Gods don't think like player characters they have bigger concerns to think about.
GothicDan 03-05-07, 08:52 PM	Sigh god I hate 2nd ed Planescape for alot of the BS in it. I LOVE IT FOR ALL OF THE GOOD AWESOMENESS!!11//one.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-05-07, 09:22 PM	Sigh god I hate 2nd ed Planescape for alot of the BS in it. We're in 3.5 now and gods>archfiends. The most powerful of archfiends stat wise could take on and defeat some of the weakest demigods mano a mano. Even if we only look at 3.x material, considering the flavor text in FC:I and II, and the fact that they're only presenting aspects/avatars rather than true stats, I dare say you can't really claim that. When people talk about the "history" of Archfiends in D&D it was only really in planescape they added a whole heap of BS that made archfiends on par with deities. In 1st ed they were just a tough demon/devil for high level PCs to take on. Well most of the detailed history on the archfiends came from various PS sources, so there's no surprise that people are going to be pulling ideas from there. Yes in 1e they were just big monsters, and guess what it's no longer 1e either. Lolth no longer has 66 hit points. Call me crazy for wanting gods and planar powers to be things of depth and complexity rather than things to kill during extraplanar dungeon crawls. And actually it didn't first appear in Planescape, it was just some of the Planescape sources that were the most overt about the distinctions and differences between gods and planar powers. Theres a reason planescape got canned. Very few people played it hence low sales hence dead campaign setting. Ravenloft and Dragonlance for example were both reprinted in 3.0/3.5 so I would take anything planescape with a grain of salt. Then I suggest you pull up some sales numbers to back that claim up. From what I've heard the Planescape line sold well during its run. But from a combination of the heavy use of box sets, plus the entire line being printed using a much larger and more expensive set of ink colors, the line made much less profit per unit sold compared to other product lines. But even from that perspective, the line wasn't "canned" as you put it, it was folded back into the main product line. We've seen more Planescape derived material in 3.x WotC material than any of the other 2e settings. Ravenloft and DL were reprinted because someone shelled out the money to do so, and because they were relatively self-contained, there wasn't the issue of having to pay for linked and entangled IP rights that would have raised itself up had someone asked to print an explicitely 3.x Planescape line of books. In the current aveture path in Dungeon magazine it looks like Demogorgon will take a tumble to a group of level 20-21 adventurers. With the direct aid of another, or multiple other Abyssal Lords, or possibly some other deus ex to let to PCs actually manage to even attempt to fight him. But since the latter portions of the AP haven't been written yet, it's a bit too soon to make claims regarding it. It's not a case of PCs going up to Demogorgon and rolling initiative like he's a dretch.
Zardnaar 03-05-07, 09:58 PM	I'm interested in how Dungeon will incorporate Demogorgon. From the sounds of theres a CR 23 From FC1 version and a more powerful version depending on how many plans of his the PC interfere with. You also have to seek allies such as Grazzt and Malcanthet. By 3.5 rules the Demonlords are outclassed by most of the gods. Imhotep and Iuz could be in trouble though. What came in 2.0 is irrelevent as it has been replaced with 3.0/3.5 rules and in FRs case no longer uses the great wheel. In FR at least it seems gods are alot more powerful than archfiends. Some Archfiends can't even grant spells in FR unblike normal DnD. I'm not saying the Archfiends should be able to be smacked around like Dretchs but they should be beatable by level 18+ adventurers- in the right circumstances of course.
GothicDan 03-05-07, 10:24 PM	All I can say is I so heartily disagree it hurts. The summation of ALL concepts of Evil should NOT be any more defeatable than a single evil god worshipped on one world out of millions.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-05-07, 10:57 PM	By 3.5 rules the Demonlords are outclassed by most of the gods. Not really. The most recent 3.5 sourcebooks would seem to suggest the opposite, at least on the fiends' home planes at least (and considering that those particular books heavily draw upon 2e lore, it's not surprising). And given their interactions with various archfiends, Set, Gruumsh, Maglubiyet, and Kiaransalee just to name a few have certainly learned to regret such conflict. Ability to grant spells to worshippers means very little.
Zardnaar 03-05-07, 11:24 PM	In game mechanics/stats the Archfiends are overpowered by the gods. The Archfiends on occasion defeating the gods isn't the usual state of affairs usually requiring exceptional circumstances.. Orcus had the last word plot line and mortals on occasion defeat the gods as well. In FR Grazzt only got Waukeen due to the Time of Troubles. TSR/WoTC plotlines > Archfiend/God/mortal it would seem.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-05-07, 11:55 PM	In game mechanics/stats the Archfiends are overpowered by the gods. Again, not really. The archfiends are presented in terms of avatars/aspects, rather than any "true" stat block. There's no listed upper bound for their power, whereas deities have been limited in that way. Beyond that, archfiends' abilities over their claimed layers of a plane trump the scale and range of the ability of a god to affect a portion of a divinely morphic plane. Plus, I can think of more instances of an archfiend trumping a god on the lower planes than a deity doing anything remotely similar (though beyond the fact that they're simply not as interested, there's conversely a reason the fiends don't tend to pick fights with deities on the prime material).
Zardnaar 03-06-07, 12:47 AM	Again, not really. The archfiends are presented in terms of avatars/aspects, rather than any "true" stat block. There's no listed upper bound for their power, whereas deities have been limited in that way. Beyond that, archfiends' abilities over their claimed layers of a plane trump the scale and range of the ability of a god to affect a portion of a divinely morphic plane. Plus, I can think of more instances of an archfiend trumping a god on the lower planes than a deity doing anything remotely similar (though beyond the fact that they're simply not as interested, there's conversely a reason the fiends don't tend to pick fights with deities on the prime material). No ts your opinion the archfiends are avatars. As presented in FC1 Demogorgon is CR 23, and even the tougher ones in Dragon are weaker than most of the gods. In brute force god>archfiend
Shemeska the Marauder 03-06-07, 01:40 AM	No ts your opinion the archfiends are avatars. As presented in FC1 Demogorgon is CR 23, and even the tougher ones in Dragon are weaker than most of the gods. In brute force god>archfiend No, it's not my opinion. It's the opinion of the actual authors of the books. In FC:II it's explicit that they're avatars, and for the earlier FC:I, according to its authors the stats in FC:I are also for avatars. The line making this clear was seemingly removed by one of the editors after they'd turned in their manuscript, or it was simply trimmed by accident, but the intention was clear. Plus, even without knowing Mona and Jacob's stances on the topic, given the handling of the topic in FC:II, it seems reasonable to likewise treat the abyssal lords in similar fashion as the Lords of the 9. The design stance by the authors of both books is obvious.
Stigger 03-06-07, 10:02 AM	Well, if you want to approach it in true Baatoran fashion... the abyssal types are just... lesser, at least compared to the Baatezu, RAW of course. Intentions don't really matter, so much as hard written lore... meaning the Baatezu win... :evillaugh :D
Paledrow 03-06-07, 12:06 PM	I agree. The archfiends are the paragons and epitomes of evil. They're the incarnations, the physical and spiritual manifestations and rulers of the evil alignments. The evil deities are nothing like that. They're simply deities, the same as good deities are. They're more unpleasant to be around, but they're not the incarnations of evil in the way fiends are. Gods are good or evil in the way that mortals are good or evil - no more and no less. Fiends, archons, eladrins, and so on represent their alignments in a much more intense way - they are their alignments, ideals made flesh. And their rulers are the ultimate manifestations of these ideals. The gods, whether good or evil, have an entirely different role in the game. Bane is god of tyranny, but he can't hold a candle to Asmodeus when it comes to being lawful evil. If you are trying to say that classical view of a god compared to a fiend is that the fiend is more powerful, then you would be so off the mark its not even funny. Just about all classical views hold gods as the highest teir of being, flat out without any ambiguity to it. and most modern mytholigies/ religions also hold the same view that a fiend can be destroyed by the wave of a god's hand. Trying to say a fiend is more powerful then any god is like trying to say the sky is green.
Paledrow 03-06-07, 12:12 PM	Again, not really. The archfiends are presented in terms of avatars/aspects, rather than any "true" stat block. There's no listed upper bound for their power, whereas deities have been limited in that way. Beyond that, archfiends' abilities over their claimed layers of a plane trump the scale and range of the ability of a god to affect a portion of a divinely morphic plane. Plus, I can think of more instances of an archfiend trumping a god on the lower planes than a deity doing anything remotely similar (though beyond the fact that they're simply not as interested, there's conversely a reason the fiends don't tend to pick fights with deities on the prime material). Really? point out the times...I'd like to hear them. You never heard of a god doing this? didn't I point out Vhaeraun doing this several times?And hes a minor deity at that. Its obvious your holding a torch for the fiends, but lets keep our eyes on ALL the evidence not just the evidence that is pleasing to your heart. Oh wait wasn't there also a time Lolth strolled up to a fiend and demanded his service and he did what she wanted due to the fact that she could just wave her hand and he would be dead...and he was very aware of this? hmm.. Now you could be right, I may not have all the facts but I would like to see these stories or accounts of fiends defying evil gods and making the god fear for his life. Show me so I can be corrected. Also, and most importantly, you say there are upper bounds for a deities power. That is not even remotely true. Their interests are limited by their portfolio because they rely on worshippers. Their power is not limited by their portfolio. Case in point: Lolth went from mediocre deity to greater goddess without any change in portfolio. In fact she gained power for no apparent or defined reason other then Ao granted it to her just because he promised to and no other reason. Please point out the time Ao waved his hand and increased the power of a Arch fiend? Ao, being the "true" source of the god's power, and AO being reletively unlimited in his power, thus translates to the gods having an unlimited potential. The feinds do not have this same potential by any stretch. You keep narrowly defining the powers of gods, but the full body of evidence AND writing which is not limited to some stat block, shows the deities to have powers and potential powers via Ao, well beyond the fiends and at the moment undefined as to their scope.
Nocci 03-06-07, 01:38 PM	Oh My God! They killed Vhaeraun!! *runs away, crying* :weep: Hi Paledrow! I know you from DA! :D
Shemeska the Marauder 03-06-07, 01:42 PM	Really? point out the times...I'd like to hear them. You never heard of a god doing this? didn't I point out Vhaeraun doing this several times?And hes a minor deity at that. Yes but by comparison they're isolated cases, about the same incidence rate as the Blood War spilling over onto a world on the prime and leaving it a sterile husk of ashes drifting in the void regardless of any deity attempting to stop it. Such things do happen, but let's keep the gods and archfiends in perspective here. On the lower planes it's the fiends who control the planes at large and deities are relegated to second tier status except within their discrete deific domains, while on the prime material it's going to be reversed. But you asked for examples, and I'll give you some: Gruumsh and Maglubiyet were both ejected from Baator (either by Bel or Asmodeus) because the warfare between their petitioners became bothersome to the fiends. Set and Sekolah are embroiled in an on-again-off-again war with Prince Levistus of Stygia. Though immobile and locked inside a glacier, Levistus has been causing Set's deific domain to actually shrink in size. The foundations of the Baatezu city of Abiormach are built upon the corpse of a god said to have been killed by Asmodeus. The Wasting Tower of Khin-Oin was carved from the spine of a deity killed by the 'loths (or their creators the Baernaloths). Very early in the history of the Blood War, gods took part in the conflict. Then something happened. Every god involved in the conflict began to notice their deific essence starting to fray and unravel at the edges, and eventually an early deity of chaos simply died. The exact method used is still unknown, but the point was proven: the influence of mortal spawned deities is unwanted in the Blood War and the internal politics of the fiends. When the gods withdrew their influence, the damage stopped, and to the present day with slim exception the gods no longer directly act in the Blood War. They learned a lesson very early on. Now you could be right, I may not have all the facts but I would like to see these stories or accounts of fiends defying evil gods and making the god fear for his life. Show me so I can be corrected. If needed I can get you source names and page numbers. :) Please point out the time Ao waved his hand and increased the power of a Arch fiend? Ao, being the "true" source of the god's power, and AO being reletively unlimited in his power, thus translates to the gods having an unlimited potential. The feinds do not have this same potential by any stretch. Ao can't do anything to them because he has no power outside of Toril and outside of affecting the power of gods who have a formal deific presence there. He's effectively all powerful but only within a specific sphere of influence, not anywhere else. The fiends are living extensions of their planes. Abyssal Lords for instance exist effectively in symbiosis with a given layer or layer of the Abyss, and on some level it's difficult to say where for instance Grazz't exists distinctly seperate from any portion of the three layers of Azzagrat. Bane might promote tyranny, but something like Dispater is tyranny taken flesh. And on the outer planes this distinction is a powerful and poignant one. You keep narrowly defining the powers of gods, but the full body of evidence AND writing which is not limited to some stat block, shows the deities to have powers and potential powers via Ao, well beyond the fiends and at the moment undefined as to their scope. I'd be happy to not use stat blocks. I don't care much for stats really. They're dry and boring. The only reason I even brought up that god stats were defined in 3.x and archfiends had not been given an upper bound or 'true stats' was because you appealed to god stats supposedly being higher than those of fiends. We can happily ditch game mechanics and just go by lore and fluff, and in which case I can assure you that I've got more material on my side. It's not monolithic, but the preponderance of material on the planes, and the relationship between evil deities who live on those planes, and the archfiends that -are- those planes when you get right down to it comes down rather favorably to my PoV. One source you mentioned might claim otherwise, but it also claims yugoloths derive from larvae (which they explicitely don't), that tanar'ri are vulnerable to lightning (when they're immune to it), and some other factual quibbles that might make us question its validity as a major source for the point you're arguing for.
Zardnaar 03-06-07, 04:48 PM	On occasion the fiends have taken on gods and "won" but thats the exception rather than the rule. Orcus for example was actually a god when he killed some of them. Shemeska likes Planescape alot (fair enough I like Darksun) but even in that setting they said the information could be lies. It may be thats what the fiends want you to think. Only the most powerful of the Archfiends like Asmodeus and Orcus perhaps Demogorgon could even try. The average Archfiend let alone normal fiend can only reallly say yes sir/maam to any god who says "boo" to them. The gods that got booted out of the Hells were probably given an ultimatum along the lines of this. "Leave or the legions of hell will decimate your worshipper base" as opposed to I Asmodeus will personally come and lay the unholy smacksown on you 1 on 1. That is power of a sort but not sheer brute power reflected in stat blocks. The other case of fiends vs gods are either rumors or like the 'Loths (who could be lying) or involved exceptional circumstances (Orcus/Tenebrous). Its like saying a few mortals in the Time of Troubles killed a god ergo mortals>gods which isn't true as we all know. Even in 2nd ed which had a rule about mortals not being able to kill gods stronger than a demipower had at least 1 exception (Karsus) and the Imaskari managed to get a few as well when the Mulan revolted. As I said before. TSR/WoTC plotline>gods/archfiends.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-06-07, 06:32 PM	On occasion the fiends have taken on gods and "won" but thats the exception rather than the rule. You've said that several times now, and I'm waiting to hear some examples to support that perspective. Outside the Vhaeruan incident, which I already mentioned that it seriously deviates from the lore on the fiends already, (calling its reliability into question) you haven't mentioned any others to refute my points. If archfiends>gods on the lower planes is an exception rather than the rule, you're going to need to pull some more examples out, because right now you're down a number. Orcus for example was actually a god when he killed some of them. I intentionally left out Orcus/Tenebrous's god-killing joyride across the planes in 'Dead Gods' and 'Great Modron March'. Depending on the source he either was or wasn't also a deity at the time, but he was using the power of The Last Word to do the killing, so it's not a good example. But given the number of examples I gave, I don't need that one to support my PoV. Orcus killing Primus, Maanzicorian, Tomeri, and Camaxtli (and Bwimb who wasn't a deity) is one of those archfiend pwns god incidents that gets a little * next to it, like using steroids to break a home run record.
Paledrow 03-10-07, 03:06 PM	Oh My God! They killed Vhaeraun!! *runs away, crying* :weep: Hi Paledrow! I know you from DA! :D :waves: :D
Paledrow 03-10-07, 03:11 PM	Yes but by comparison they're isolated cases, about the same incidence rate as the Blood War spilling over onto a world on the prime and leaving it a sterile husk of ashes drifting in the void regardless of any deity attempting to stop it. Such things do happen, but let's keep the gods and archfiends in perspective here. On the lower planes it's the fiends who control the planes at large and deities are relegated to second tier status except within their discrete deific domains, while on the prime material it's going to be reversed. But you asked for examples, and I'll give you some: Gruumsh and Maglubiyet were both ejected from Baator (either by Bel or Asmodeus) because the warfare between their petitioners became bothersome to the fiends. Set and Sekolah are embroiled in an on-again-off-again war with Prince Levistus of Stygia. Though immobile and locked inside a glacier, Levistus has been causing Set's deific domain to actually shrink in size. The foundations of the Baatezu city of Abiormach are built upon the corpse of a god said to have been killed by Asmodeus. The Wasting Tower of Khin-Oin was carved from the spine of a deity killed by the 'loths (or their creators the Baernaloths). Very early in the history of the Blood War, gods took part in the conflict. Then something happened. Every god involved in the conflict began to notice their deific essence starting to fray and unravel at the edges, and eventually an early deity of chaos simply died. The exact method used is still unknown, but the point was proven: the influence of mortal spawned deities is unwanted in the Blood War and the internal politics of the fiends. When the gods withdrew their influence, the damage stopped, and to the present day with slim exception the gods no longer directly act in the Blood War. They learned a lesson very early on. If needed I can get you source names and page numbers. :) Ao can't do anything to them because he has no power outside of Toril and outside of affecting the power of gods who have a formal deific presence there. He's effectively all powerful but only within a specific sphere of influence, not anywhere else. The fiends are living extensions of their planes. Abyssal Lords for instance exist effectively in symbiosis with a given layer or layer of the Abyss, and on some level it's difficult to say where for instance Grazz't exists distinctly seperate from any portion of the three layers of Azzagrat. Bane might promote tyranny, but something like Dispater is tyranny taken flesh. And on the outer planes this distinction is a powerful and poignant one. I'd be happy to not use stat blocks. I don't care much for stats really. They're dry and boring. The only reason I even brought up that god stats were defined in 3.x and archfiends had not been given an upper bound or 'true stats' was because you appealed to god stats supposedly being higher than those of fiends. We can happily ditch game mechanics and just go by lore and fluff, and in which case I can assure you that I've got more material on my side. It's not monolithic, but the preponderance of material on the planes, and the relationship between evil deities who live on those planes, and the archfiends that -are- those planes when you get right down to it comes down rather favorably to my PoV. One source you mentioned might claim otherwise, but it also claims yugoloths derive from larvae (which they explicitely don't), that tanar'ri are vulnerable to lightning (when they're immune to it), and some other factual quibbles that might make us question its validity as a major source for the point you're arguing for. Id actually like the page numbers. Keep in mind I'm not asking to prove any point, II am truly curious and would like to expand my knowledge on the fiends as they relate to the gods. There are many gray areas which need to be explored.
Paledrow 03-10-07, 03:14 PM	On occasion the fiends have taken on gods and "won" but thats the exception rather than the rule. Orcus for example was actually a god when he killed some of them. Shemeska likes Planescape alot (fair enough I like Darksun) but even in that setting they said the information could be lies. It may be thats what the fiends want you to think. Only the most powerful of the Archfiends like Asmodeus and Orcus perhaps Demogorgon could even try. The average Archfiend let alone normal fiend can only reallly say yes sir/maam to any god who says "boo" to them. The gods that got booted out of the Hells were probably given an ultimatum along the lines of this. "Leave or the legions of hell will decimate your worshipper base" as opposed to I Asmodeus will personally come and lay the unholy smacksown on you 1 on 1. That is power of a sort but not sheer brute power reflected in stat blocks. The other case of fiends vs gods are either rumors or like the 'Loths (who could be lying) or involved exceptional circumstances (Orcus/Tenebrous). Its like saying a few mortals in the Time of Troubles killed a god ergo mortals>gods which isn't true as we all know. Even in 2nd ed which had a rule about mortals not being able to kill gods stronger than a demipower had at least 1 exception (Karsus) and the Imaskari managed to get a few as well when the Mulan revolted. As I said before. TSR/WoTC plotline>gods/archfiends. I would have to agree with this viewpoint. This is how I always saw it.
Paledrow 03-10-07, 03:16 PM	You've said that several times now, and I'm waiting to hear some examples to support that perspective. Outside the Vhaeruan incident, which I already mentioned that it seriously deviates from the lore on the fiends already, (calling its reliability into question) you haven't mentioned any others to refute my points. If archfiends>gods on the lower planes is an exception rather than the rule, you're going to need to pull some more examples out, because right now you're down a number. I intentionally left out Orcus/Tenebrous's god-killing joyride across the planes in 'Dead Gods' and 'Great Modron March'. Depending on the source he either was or wasn't also a deity at the time, but he was using the power of The Last Word to do the killing, so it's not a good example. But given the number of examples I gave, I don't need that one to support my PoV. Orcus killing Primus, Maanzicorian, Tomeri, and Camaxtli (and Bwimb who wasn't a deity) is one of those archfiend pwns god incidents that gets a little * next to it, like using steroids to break a home run record. Keep in mind that the stats and reference books tend to be written and re written according to the latest novel, not the other way around. That is why I tend to rely on the accounts of the novels above the references.
Zanan 03-10-07, 05:38 PM	Arrgh ... all this unrelated Planescape babble. People, whatever they did before, these fiends, arch-fiends, and deities. If the Wizards decide to kill one of them off despite what is said in sourcebook xyz, they will do so. And if they rework the powerstructure between archfiends and deities and rework it again, they will do so. And there will not always a reason (in-or-out of setting) being given. Trying to tackle somesuch on a semi-scientific debate will leave a healthy number of people unsatisfied, so for your own sake, don't talk yourself into a frenzy. In the end, Lolth will survive and all will be good. BTW, as all the PS gurus are about, any sourcebook on Rhyxali, Demon Princess of Shadow, which springs to mind?
Shemeska the Marauder 03-10-07, 07:08 PM	BTW, as all the PS gurus are about, any sourcebook on Rhyxali, Demon Princess of Shadow, which springs to mind? She first appeared in the BoVD web enhancement, and though she gets mentioned in FC:I, there isn't yet any other real detail on her.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-10-07, 07:54 PM	But you asked for examples, and I'll give you some: Gruumsh and Maglubiyet were both ejected from Baator (either by Bel or Asmodeus) because the warfare between their petitioners became bothersome to the fiends. The Lords of the 9, Dragon Magazine #223 by Colin McComb Set and Sekolah are embroiled in an on-again-off-again war with Prince Levistus of Stygia. Though immobile and locked inside a glacier, Levistus has been causing Set's deific domain to actually shrink in size. Bits of this are scattered across a number of books, so give me some additional time to track this one down. The general notion of the Lords of the 9 being something beyond the gods who reside in Baator is all over the place however, especially in 'Faces of Evil: The Fiends' and 'On Hallowed Ground'. The foundations of the Baatezu city of Abiormach are built upon the corpse of a god said to have been killed by Asmodeus. Page 19 of the Baator book in the Planes of Law box set Also page 119 of the 3e Manual of the Planes The Wasting Tower of Khin-Oin was carved from the spine of a deity killed by the 'loths (or their creators the Baernaloths). Page 52 and 53 of the Liber Malevolentiae in the Planes of Conflict Box set Also Page 109 of the 3e Manual of the Planes Very early in the history of the Blood War, gods took part in the conflict. Then something happened. Every god involved in the conflict began to notice their deific essence starting to fray and unravel at the edges, and eventually an early deity of chaos simply died. The exact method used is still unknown, but the point was proven: the influence of mortal spawned deities is unwanted in the Blood War and the internal politics of the fiends. When the gods withdrew their influence, the damage stopped, and to the present day with slim exception the gods no longer directly act in the Blood War. They learned a lesson very early on. Page 13 of 'The Dark of the War', in the Hellbound:The Blood War box set. Additionally a second legend similar to but distinct from the one above, a second fiendish deicide is on Page 68 of the same source Also Page 42 of 'On Hallowed Ground' confirms the general themes of this, and the fear of the gods to meddle in the War
Arbourean 03-10-07, 09:25 PM	I believe Vhaeraun is dead, absorbed by Eilistraee. By series end I think Eilistraee will be at the least an Intermediate Power and will be the prefered patron of those drow wanting to cast of the corruption of Lloth. It makes sense really, since E voluntarily chose exile from Arvandor because she wanted to save the drow.
Zardnaar 03-11-07, 01:46 AM	Shemeska Dragon 294 doesn't have an article about the Lords of the Nine? What issue are you thinking of sounds interesting if nothing else.
Shemeska the Marauder 03-11-07, 03:53 AM	Shemeska Dragon 294 doesn't have an article about the Lords of the Nine? What issue are you thinking of sounds interesting if nothing else. The Lords of the Nine article was in Dragon #223, I put the wrong number up there originally (I had a copy of 294 on my desk because I'd been reading over its bit on Tharizdun when I was writing the recent demiplane article). My desk and my head are cluttered at times. :ton:
Zanan 03-11-07, 05:07 AM	She first appeared in the BoVD web enhancement, and though she gets mentioned in FC:I, there isn't yet any other real detail on her. Now, that is good news. All to play for with her then. Thank's Shem!
Sylock 03-21-07, 12:50 PM	Allot of portrayals of gods being defeated by mortals are absurd. That is why there are so many discussions on this topic. It is absurd that Cavatina killed Selvatarm the way she did. That is why everyone is now thinking that the blade itself killed Selvatarm not Cavatina. They are gods...not mortals. They should be portrayed as such. One of the few authentic portrayals of a god I have seen so far was in the begining of the last book in the WotSQ series. In that scene we see Vhaeraun going where he pleases when he pleases regardless of the alarms, locks or anything short of another god barring his way. He also puts fear into a mighty demon merely by his presence alone. So much so that the demon refuses to make eye contact knowing that any slight would be his instant demise..as Vhaeraun demonstrates in that same scene by yanking out one of his hearts and showing it to him then putting it back in.. This being a demon that could easily kill most mortals. Anyway, point being, they are gods, not mortals. Portray them as such or it becomes absurd. I am a HUGE part-timer so I am probably completely wrong ... however, I thought that gods were not supposed to directly affect mortals, it was some law or such. Otherwise an evil god would simple start sending his/her avatar all over willing people to die. Anyway, my point is that don't they have to play by the rules and one of the rules from the time of troubles being that they had to stop directly affecting mortals and were made to rely on their followers to be the ones to spread their will? Again, I'm no where near an expert, I just read the novels.
Stigger 03-22-07, 02:59 AM	Sounds like the basic spirit of the new rules... but as ever, the devil is in the details of those rules.
Boda 03-25-07, 07:44 PM	It's all a ruse. The drow deities will destroy each other, paving the way to the Lady of Loss, true ruler of the underdark!
Zanan 03-26-07, 07:26 AM	It's all a ruse. The drow deities will destroy each other, paving the way to the Lady of Loss, true ruler of the underdark! Ed already said that this is unlikely to happen. Not the "takeover of Shar" that is, but the loss of all drow deities.
Khaelieth 03-26-07, 12:12 PM	Ed already said that this is unlikely to happen. Not the "takeover of Shar" that is, but the loss of all drow deities. Nah, they can't kill off the drow dieties. It wouldn't be much fun then.
Zanan 03-26-07, 12:39 PM	Nah, they can't kill off the drow dieties. It wouldn't be much fun then. That's what I am saying. (Get that character sheet to me :cool: )
Khaelieth 03-26-07, 07:34 PM	Aiie! I obey, Jabbress! But I think if they remove Selvetarm, I think the Matriarchs will find it difficult to control the males.
Arbourean 03-26-07, 09:10 PM	Selvetarm can easily be absorbed by Lolth. It won't matter whether or not his worshippers pray in his name, as she will be the one benefiting from their worship and granting spells. Concerning Vhaeraun: Could it be possible that he stored part of his divinity prior to meeting his sister? The last page seems to allude to it.
Dxzauvrinn 03-29-07, 12:40 AM	Selvetarm can easily be absorbed by Lolth. It won't matter whether or not his worshippers pray in his name, as she will be the one benefiting from their worship and granting spells. Concerning Vhaeraun: Could it be possible that he stored part of his divinity prior to meeting his sister? The last page seems to allude to it. Either that, or my favorite drow deities an idot. Excuse me, was an idiot.
Paledrow 03-29-07, 02:18 AM	Either that, or my favorite drow deities an idot. Excuse me, was an idiot. Considering the fact that WotC always tends to treat deities with evil ideologies as if they have the mental capacity and tactical know how of two year olds (regardless of their power status), I wouldn't hold my breath.
Stigger 03-29-07, 07:59 AM	Usually reminds me of Eric the Viking when the finally get to Asgard, only to find out the gods are actually children with a lot of power whenever I think of the way evil gods are portrayed...
Paledrow 03-29-07, 02:16 PM	Usually reminds me of Eric the Viking when the finally get to Asgard, only to find out the gods are actually children with a lot of power whenever I think of the way evil gods are portrayed... Funny you say that, I have from time to time thought the same thing when reading a realms novel portraying the thought process and plans of an evil deity.( Bane in the avatar series comes to mind immediately) One of the reasons I like Vhaeraun is he was portrayed with competence (well up until now) and passion. But if he really is dead in the manner eluded to, then it seems that little oversight has been extinguished...as usual for the badies.
MsMarvelDuckie 04-17-07, 01:23 AM	I really hope Elistraee does not end up dead. Of the drow gods, she has always been my fave, and when I play a drow char., she is always their patron. I love Lolth, don't get me wrong, but Eilistraee just speaks to me more personally(though I DO seem to have this odd affinity for spiders...). Most of my drow characters at least follow her, even ifthey are not clergy(which they usually are). Otherwise, I'd have to say that I'm disappointed that Vaeraun is apparently dead. They can kill off Selvetarm, Kiriansalee, and even Gauhnadar, but leave those three alone!
XHereticX 04-21-07, 08:42 PM	Well, it seems like the Drow pantheon is gonna die. No big deal, I've never liked any of them besides Lolth anyway. The only one I can see surviving is Eilistraee, who will probably flee back to Aravanor and rejoin the Seldarine. Anyway, judging by the rather plain, pathetic, and rather stupid way Vhaeraun died in the novel, I think that all the internal strife and chaos alone will finish off the drow, that is unless Ao himself drags his meddling butt in there and revives them all, which is highly unlikely. And about the whole archfiend vs god thing, do Set and Sekloah even live in the Nine Hells in FR? Because I thought no gods lived in the Abyss or Baator in FR. As for the archfiends power level, I would have to say most of them are around lesser deity level with the most powerful like Asmodeus and demo a little bit stronger. Plus they are nearly omnipotent on their home plane, so the way that they were screwed over in both Elminster in Hell and Resurrection was a little awkward.
Zanan 04-23-07, 03:55 AM	One of the reasons I like Vhaeraun is he was portrayed with competence (well up until now) and passion. But if he really is dead in the manner eluded to, then it seems that little oversight has been extinguished...as usual for the badies. Well, his dogma claims equality for all drow et al ... but if you look behind the curtains, all he and his folk want to do is turn the tide and re-establish the "right" order of male and female, i.e. the males rule (with the drow that means there are nigh to no female clerics of Vhaeraun) and the female obey. For this outline alone I simply don't see him as an alternative to the drow. If e.g. Cavatina etc. takes up some CN position somewhere to handle the renegade or surface drow more appropriately, I'd have no problems.
Zireael 04-23-07, 07:13 AM	All the internal chaos and strife should have finished the drow long ago, but it hadn't. And I don't think the drow pantheon would die, as long as there's at least one drow on Faerun (not concerning Drizzt, of course :D :D )
Khaelieth 04-23-07, 08:41 AM	Well, his dogma claims equality for all drow et al ... but if you look behind the curtains, all he and his folk want to do is turn the tide and re-establish the "right" order of male and female, i.e. the males rule (with the drow that means there are nigh to no female clerics of Vhaeraun) and the female obey. For this outline alone I simply don't see him as an alternative to the drow. If e.g. Cavatina etc. takes up some CN position somewhere to handle the renegade or surface drow more appropriately, I'd have no problems. Yep, Vhaeraun is only a little misunderstood! If all follow his word, things are gonna be just fine! But I wish Smedman hadn't called the drow Cavatina...
PharaunMizzrym 05-02-07, 03:27 PM	Vhaeruan did not act in an incompetent way. Had Eilistraee not been tipped off by Qilue, Vhaeraun would have scored a sneak attack. It was only in direct combat that he would loose, and that's what happened.
Ramenth 05-07-07, 01:09 PM	I'm hardly convinced that Vhaeraun is dead. The Sava game implies he willingly got himself 'killed'. Strikes me as being more in the line of 'Okay... New lolth is nuts. I'm out of here. Hey, Sis, if I help you in the coming fight will you give me a convinent way out?'