Shadow weave users [Archive] - Wizards Community

Shadow weave users [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Narren
07-30-07, 09:58 PM I have a player who wants to do something, but I'm not sure if it would work. He is interested in tapping into the Shadow Weave, and working for the church of Shar, but wants to be more or less a "mole" for either the church of Mystra or Selune. Is this feasible? I'm not intimately familiar with the Shadow Weave.
Eli_the_Tanner
07-30-07, 11:13 PM Sounds like quite an interesting campaign. It would would be very fun to play the character trying to resist the lure of the shadow weave whilst learning about it at the same time. To chart the characters slow seduction by the Shadow weave and then perhaps becoming a mole-within-a-mole would be fun.

However I do believe that 'tapping' the Shadow weave itself would be a step too far for a mole, as he has then separated himself from 'Mystra's weave' and embraced Shar's. I think he would suffer from Shar's curse (lose 2 points of wisdom) if he did not pledge himself to her. It is very hard to trick the goddess of deception herself.
Meldread
07-31-07, 12:05 AM I think Eli has it about right.

Basically, what it comes down to is that sooner or later he's going to have to actually start using the Shadow Weave. The moment he casts his first spell from the Shadow Weave, I would rule that he's completely severed himself from the Weave. (Meaning in game terms he's taken the Shadow Weave feat.)

Pretty much after that there is no going back. He can certainly still work against Shar, that won't change anything. It's just that now Shar can cut him off from the Shadow Weave anytime she likes... I doubt she would, even if he is working against her...

It is important to keep in mind that Shar is a Greater Deity that has been around since before the first signs of life ever touched Toril. She is the goddess of secrets, so that means (more or less) that the PC isn't going to be hiding much from her.

I would play it as such:
I would allow the player to act and do whatever he wished. I would warn him that what he is doing is highly dangerous and may result in the death of his character. If he still decides to proceed I would allow it.

I would then work him toward a point where he is faced with the reality that he must actually embrace the Shadow Weave. Keep in mind that the Shadow Weave is an insanely well kept secret. Only a few people know about it. It isn't something that is well known within the Realm's at all. So once the PC has confronted Sharrans and basically put his name on the sign-up sheet... he's somewhat screwed when it comes to backing out. If he attempts to back out, they're going to try to kill him.

Second, he's going too be encouraged to embrace Shar as his patron deity. It is unlikely that he'll get assistance otherwise, and those who embrace Shar are forced to commit one evil deed (most likely murder or something equally horrid) which the Sharrans will use to bind him to them. Secrets are what bind Sharrans together, and if he refuses to commit the evil deed, they'd likely kill him or at the very least not teach him anything.

Once he's embraced the Shadow Weave he's permanently severed from the Weave with no going back. He's likely to be hunted by the more fanatical Mystrans and Selunites regardless if he's helping them or not.

Best case scenario? He becomes a mole-within-a-mole as Eli stated. Worst case scenario? They kill him. Either way in the end he'll end up helping Shar more than hurting her.

If he wants OOC advice then, basically, do not attempt it. It is a bad idea that will ultimately blow up in his face if the Sharrans are played to their full potential.

There are three ways I can see it playing out (unless the PC is just really bad assed):
1. The PC dies either to Sharrans who discover his betrayal, or fanatical Selunites/Mystrans who kill him for using the Shadow Weave.
2. The PC joins the Sharrans in truth.
3. The PC gets in over his head and has to do some major juggling of allegiances, betraying almost every side in an attempt to save his own skin.
The Simbul
07-31-07, 07:01 PM It is not necessary to turn to the Shadow Weave in order to learn its secrets, counter its advantages, or exploit its weaknesses. It instead simply requires some exposure to Shadow Weave spellcasters, some focused research and experimentation, and the patronage of the clergies of several deities opposed to Shar and her false weave.

In fact a handful of mid level NPC spellcasters have already managed as much. See the Guardians of the Weave organization in Champions of Valor.
Meldread
07-31-07, 07:44 PM Really, the Shadow Weave is supposed to be something that is a super insane secret. I'm talking about less than 1% or 2% on the entire planet of Toril even know of its existence. Keeping that in mind, and keeping in with the themes surrounding Shar I doubt anyone who is using the Shadow Weave is going to be willing too basically give away information that will endanger their life.

Keep in mind, of course, that every single wizard out there has at least above average intelligence and if they are using the Shadow Weave, most likely the wisdom to match the intelligence. They are going to end up asking the following questions:

1. How did you learn about the Shadow Weave?
2. Why do you want to know more about the Shadow Weave?

Based on the answers to those two questions there will be more questions, and questions to those questions, until the person gets caught in a lie. Most likely, of course, since we're dealing with Wizards and most likely evil wizards to boot, they'll just attempt to use some type of mind reading spell to discover the truth and skip the questions all together. Once they learn said truth, they'll likely kill you on the spot.

I am not sure how effective you can be at studying the Shadow Weave without actually using it. Certainly, you could learn some things. You could probably learn that it boosts your power when using necromancy, enchantment and illusion spells. You could probably learn that you can't cast light spells when using the Shadow Weave. Outside of that, though, I can't really think of what else you'd easily learn. You could capture a Shadow Weave user and force knowledge out of them through magical means, but that goes counter to a subtle approach.

You could perhaps learn to create Weave based spells that work as effective counters against Shadow Weave spells, but really there is little point in that because there aren't enough Shadow Weave users to make it worthwhile.

Like I said, only 1% or 2% even know about the Shadow Weave and even less actually use it. It just seems like more because of the focus it is given, but if you step back and look at the big picture you'd realize just how insignificant it really is... the danger in the Shadow Weave is in it spreading and perhaps in Mystra trying to absorb it into her portfolio. Seeing as how Shar is a gal who loves her secrets, spreading the Shadow Weave will be something that takes a long time. She might leak its knowledge to her most trusted servants, who will embrace it, who will then teach apprentices, who then in turn will teach apprentices of their own... but we're looking at hundreds of years here not something accomplished in the near future.

By that time Mystra will likely have bit the bullet and made the attempt to claim it as part of her tyranny over magic, and suffer whatever consequences happen as a result.
Eli_the_Tanner
08-01-07, 12:00 AM Are we talking about becoming a Shadow Weave user via the church of Shar yet still remaining in Mystra's employ? Or an merely a spy within the church observing Shadow weave activites.

If the latter is the case then I imagine that would be a very difficult mission, as I'm sure learning about the Shadow Weave is something restricted only to the most inner circle of Shars clergy. In fact I doubt those who do learn of the Shadow Weave know anything of it until they become part of it themselves.
Green Elven Vampire
08-01-07, 12:32 AM I have a Star elf rogue/ wizard/ shadow adept that stumbled upon the SW by mistake by studying the sub-school of shadow and delving too deep into it's secrets. As of now, he's working against Shar in the service of Erevan Ilesere to steal some of her secrets and use them against her. Let me tell you, every high level shadow cleric and shadow wizard in her service is after The Rogues of the Laughing Twilight!!
Eli_the_Tanner
08-01-07, 09:21 AM Green Elven Vampire: Your character is a good example of how someone outside of the church of Shar can work against it. However he souunds like he discovered the Shadow weave before infiltrating the church of Shar. It would be a different story if he was trying to discover the shadow Weave by infiltrating the church of Shar, without losing himself.
Ramenth
08-03-07, 01:43 AM I don't know. If shar was unhappy with the specific Church being infiltrated, I could see Shar allowing it. Shar, after all, is the Goddess of Hidden Secrets. I'm sure she would twist the Mole before he could do real damage to her entire organization, but if the secrecy of one coven has already been nullified before the PC tries, it seems like the sort of thing she might allow.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Narren 07-30-07, 09:58 PM	I have a player who wants to do something, but I'm not sure if it would work. He is interested in tapping into the Shadow Weave, and working for the church of Shar, but wants to be more or less a "mole" for either the church of Mystra or Selune. Is this feasible? I'm not intimately familiar with the Shadow Weave.
Eli_the_Tanner 07-30-07, 11:13 PM	Sounds like quite an interesting campaign. It would would be very fun to play the character trying to resist the lure of the shadow weave whilst learning about it at the same time. To chart the characters slow seduction by the Shadow weave and then perhaps becoming a mole-within-a-mole would be fun. However I do believe that 'tapping' the Shadow weave itself would be a step too far for a mole, as he has then separated himself from 'Mystra's weave' and embraced Shar's. I think he would suffer from Shar's curse (lose 2 points of wisdom) if he did not pledge himself to her. It is very hard to trick the goddess of deception herself.
Meldread 07-31-07, 12:05 AM	I think Eli has it about right. Basically, what it comes down to is that sooner or later he's going to have to actually start using the Shadow Weave. The moment he casts his first spell from the Shadow Weave, I would rule that he's completely severed himself from the Weave. (Meaning in game terms he's taken the Shadow Weave feat.) Pretty much after that there is no going back. He can certainly still work against Shar, that won't change anything. It's just that now Shar can cut him off from the Shadow Weave anytime she likes... I doubt she would, even if he is working against her... It is important to keep in mind that Shar is a Greater Deity that has been around since before the first signs of life ever touched Toril. She is the goddess of secrets, so that means (more or less) that the PC isn't going to be hiding much from her. I would play it as such: I would allow the player to act and do whatever he wished. I would warn him that what he is doing is highly dangerous and may result in the death of his character. If he still decides to proceed I would allow it. I would then work him toward a point where he is faced with the reality that he must actually embrace the Shadow Weave. Keep in mind that the Shadow Weave is an insanely well kept secret. Only a few people know about it. It isn't something that is well known within the Realm's at all. So once the PC has confronted Sharrans and basically put his name on the sign-up sheet... he's somewhat screwed when it comes to backing out. If he attempts to back out, they're going to try to kill him. Second, he's going too be encouraged to embrace Shar as his patron deity. It is unlikely that he'll get assistance otherwise, and those who embrace Shar are forced to commit one evil deed (most likely murder or something equally horrid) which the Sharrans will use to bind him to them. Secrets are what bind Sharrans together, and if he refuses to commit the evil deed, they'd likely kill him or at the very least not teach him anything. Once he's embraced the Shadow Weave he's permanently severed from the Weave with no going back. He's likely to be hunted by the more fanatical Mystrans and Selunites regardless if he's helping them or not. Best case scenario? He becomes a mole-within-a-mole as Eli stated. Worst case scenario? They kill him. Either way in the end he'll end up helping Shar more than hurting her. If he wants OOC advice then, basically, do not attempt it. It is a bad idea that will ultimately blow up in his face if the Sharrans are played to their full potential. There are three ways I can see it playing out (unless the PC is just really bad assed): 1. The PC dies either to Sharrans who discover his betrayal, or fanatical Selunites/Mystrans who kill him for using the Shadow Weave. 2. The PC joins the Sharrans in truth. 3. The PC gets in over his head and has to do some major juggling of allegiances, betraying almost every side in an attempt to save his own skin.
The Simbul 07-31-07, 07:01 PM	It is not necessary to turn to the Shadow Weave in order to learn its secrets, counter its advantages, or exploit its weaknesses. It instead simply requires some exposure to Shadow Weave spellcasters, some focused research and experimentation, and the patronage of the clergies of several deities opposed to Shar and her false weave. In fact a handful of mid level NPC spellcasters have already managed as much. See the Guardians of the Weave organization in Champions of Valor.
Meldread 07-31-07, 07:44 PM	Really, the Shadow Weave is supposed to be something that is a super insane secret. I'm talking about less than 1% or 2% on the entire planet of Toril even know of its existence. Keeping that in mind, and keeping in with the themes surrounding Shar I doubt anyone who is using the Shadow Weave is going to be willing too basically give away information that will endanger their life. Keep in mind, of course, that every single wizard out there has at least above average intelligence and if they are using the Shadow Weave, most likely the wisdom to match the intelligence. They are going to end up asking the following questions: 1. How did you learn about the Shadow Weave? 2. Why do you want to know more about the Shadow Weave? Based on the answers to those two questions there will be more questions, and questions to those questions, until the person gets caught in a lie. Most likely, of course, since we're dealing with Wizards and most likely evil wizards to boot, they'll just attempt to use some type of mind reading spell to discover the truth and skip the questions all together. Once they learn said truth, they'll likely kill you on the spot. I am not sure how effective you can be at studying the Shadow Weave without actually using it. Certainly, you could learn some things. You could probably learn that it boosts your power when using necromancy, enchantment and illusion spells. You could probably learn that you can't cast light spells when using the Shadow Weave. Outside of that, though, I can't really think of what else you'd easily learn. You could capture a Shadow Weave user and force knowledge out of them through magical means, but that goes counter to a subtle approach. You could perhaps learn to create Weave based spells that work as effective counters against Shadow Weave spells, but really there is little point in that because there aren't enough Shadow Weave users to make it worthwhile. Like I said, only 1% or 2% even know about the Shadow Weave and even less actually use it. It just seems like more because of the focus it is given, but if you step back and look at the big picture you'd realize just how insignificant it really is... the danger in the Shadow Weave is in it spreading and perhaps in Mystra trying to absorb it into her portfolio. Seeing as how Shar is a gal who loves her secrets, spreading the Shadow Weave will be something that takes a long time. She might leak its knowledge to her most trusted servants, who will embrace it, who will then teach apprentices, who then in turn will teach apprentices of their own... but we're looking at hundreds of years here not something accomplished in the near future. By that time Mystra will likely have bit the bullet and made the attempt to claim it as part of her tyranny over magic, and suffer whatever consequences happen as a result.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-01-07, 12:00 AM	Are we talking about becoming a Shadow Weave user via the church of Shar yet still remaining in Mystra's employ? Or an merely a spy within the church observing Shadow weave activites. If the latter is the case then I imagine that would be a very difficult mission, as I'm sure learning about the Shadow Weave is something restricted only to the most inner circle of Shars clergy. In fact I doubt those who do learn of the Shadow Weave know anything of it until they become part of it themselves.
Green Elven Vampire 08-01-07, 12:32 AM	I have a Star elf rogue/ wizard/ shadow adept that stumbled upon the SW by mistake by studying the sub-school of shadow and delving too deep into it's secrets. As of now, he's working against Shar in the service of Erevan Ilesere to steal some of her secrets and use them against her. Let me tell you, every high level shadow cleric and shadow wizard in her service is after The Rogues of the Laughing Twilight!!
Eli_the_Tanner 08-01-07, 09:21 AM	Green Elven Vampire: Your character is a good example of how someone outside of the church of Shar can work against it. However he souunds like he discovered the Shadow weave before infiltrating the church of Shar. It would be a different story if he was trying to discover the shadow Weave by infiltrating the church of Shar, without losing himself.
Ramenth 08-03-07, 01:43 AM	I don't know. If shar was unhappy with the specific Church being infiltrated, I could see Shar allowing it. Shar, after all, is the Goddess of Hidden Secrets. I'm sure she would twist the Mole before he could do real damage to her entire organization, but if the secrecy of one coven has already been nullified before the PC tries, it seems like the sort of thing she might allow.