Post/Author/DateTime	Post
wizardude9 07-24-07, 12:57 PM	I was thinking about makeing a character of mine a shadow weaver. Should I?
Azuth 07-24-07, 04:36 PM	A true spellcaster wields his power through the Weave. Stay away from the Shadow! Seriously though, I'd say it depends alot on the campaign/group you're playing in. It could cause some tension if the rest of the group were followers of Mystra and are fighting against the spread of the Shadow Weave. However, if this tension is somehow included in the campaign it could add some great flavour! From a strictly mechanical view, using the Shadow Weave for casting instead of the Weave could give the group, and your character, some nifty tricks not avaliable as a Weave user. Not that I'm advocating for the Shadow Weave ofc! :rolleyes: -Azuth
Faraer 07-24-07, 07:52 PM	I was thinking about makeing a character of mine a shadow weaver. Should I?No. More specifically, not unless you want to trade in the rich decades-long cultural, philosophical, metaphysical, literary and game-mechanical development of the Art and the Weave for a recent gimmick.
Meldread 07-24-07, 09:20 PM	Don't listen to these heathens. Embrace the Shadow Weave and cast off Mystra's bondage! Be free! :P No, seriously you should consider on what type of spell caster you wish to be then decide why he/she has discovered the Shadow Weave. Those who embrace the art of enchantment, illusion or necromancy will receive the most benefit from switching. It also would not hurt if your DM decided to give you some nifty tricks. Personally, although it is not cannon, I like to think of the Shadow Weave as an alluring and corrupting Weave. In many ways it is like a drug. Each time you use its power, it corrupts you a little bit, and the more you use it the more corrupt you become. The corruption is not a physical thing but purely psychological. One that slowly brings you closer and closer to the beliefs and teachings of Shar, therefore once you begin using it there is no turning back. The corruption takes time, however and some cannot handle the corrupting nature of the Shadow Weave and thus go insane. It is very subtle and you would not notice it at all. You may notice the addiction aspect of it, however this is masked in the alluring feeling that you are always on the precipice of discovering a new found secret. There is always the feeling of untold and hidden power. This is where the DM should then begin to grant simple tricks and such to your character to make it more fun. For example, you are researching the Shadow Weave fanatically and eventually discover a way to attune yourself to the Weave in such away that will allow you to conjure a shadow to fight by your side once per day. Things of this nature go a long way toward making it a much more interesting experience, and over all much more alluring to switch.
Green Elven Vampire 07-24-07, 09:22 PM	I say yes... I'm playing a CN Star elf Rogue/ Wizard/ Shadow Adept of Erevan Ilesere who has CG tendencies, who has no clue of the struggle between Shar and Mystra as he has just stumbled upon the shadow weave by mistake.
The_Shaman 07-25-07, 07:18 AM	Apparently he hasn't heard that Corellon is not exactly thrilled by the Shadow Weave either :P What do they teach young wizards nowadays? I tend to be a bit put off from the SW, for two reasons. First, I do not exactly know how the Shadow Weave relates to the Weave. Recently I heard that the two were created simultaneously, which rings not just false but absurd - Mystra, as a being formed of raw energy from Selune and Shar, so if a second, "dark" weave formed with the first, she should be it as well, just as she is the weave. Second, anything over which Shar holds sway is a dangerous tool. At least Mystra isn't very picky about who uses the Weave and for what - heck, Cyric wields arcane magic. That said, mages who favor the schools empowered by the Shadow Weave have a good reason to consider it. A beguiler, for example, has few mechanical reasons not to be a shadow weave user - there are some, mind you, but there aren't many
Eli_the_Tanner 07-26-07, 12:13 PM	The shadow-weave is a very interesting campaign tool, for palyer's and DM's alike. I played a traditional sun elf fighter/wizard who had been captured during the Evereskan-Shade war and eventully sold into slavery in the moonsea via the Zhents. Distrustful of humans who helped to precipitate the war and dismayed by the power the shades had used to overcome his once impregnable home he become highly racist(even moreso than a normal sun elf). Freed from slavery by a human paladin and an aspiring knight of the weave, whom he become indebted to. Traveling for a time his relationship with the knight caused friction in the group, my sun elf blaming all their failures on him. One night a group of knights of the weave approached looking for the young paladin, unfortuanly the paladin was elsewhere and my sun elf(magically-disuised as him):incog: agreed to accompany them instead. They took him to the tower of a shadow-lich where the paladin was supposed to help to defeat the creature as part of his initiation to the order. The Sun Elfs dislike of humans, his time with the self-rightious knight of the weave follower and his knowledge of the power of the shadow weave all came to a head in the fight. He betrayed the Knights and pledged his service to the lich in order to learn the shaow-weave. Using the power of the Shadow-weave he would hide his treachery from the group and help them to uncover new sources of the shadow-weave..all in the service of his master. Until one day the now formidable sun-elf Shadow adept leads the group on a quest to destroy his old master. Stealing the knowledge of lichdom from him and biding his time until he is ready to use such knowledge. They are currently heading towards the lands of Shade, to help 'destroy' the shadow-weave users, all under the leadersip of their holy human leader and now fully-fledged knight of the weave, with a bit of guidence from their 'now-humble illusionist':evillaugh
Green Elven Vampire 07-26-07, 12:32 PM	Apparently he hasn't heard that Corellon is not exactly thrilled by the Shadow Weave either :P What do they teach young wizards nowadays? Well, he was doing a intense study of the sub-school of shadow, and by chance found the SW. Longer story to it, but I'm on my way to work. :(
Purple Dragon Knight 07-26-07, 12:50 PM	I have a gnome bard/lyric_thaumaturge/shadow_adept/shadowcraft_mage in my friend's Planescape campaign, and I love it! No longer does every mage with a simple detect magic can pinpoint my location when I have an invisibility spell on! :) Thanks to the Shadow Magic feats (my character has all four feats, thanks to his shadow_adept one level dip! :P ) other "regular weave" casters must make a caster level check to detect my magical auras... so it's great for a sneaky little bastard like my character! :D
Nicholas the Paladin 08-02-07, 04:48 AM	I have a gnome bard/lyric_thaumaturge/shadow_adept/shadowcraft_mage in my friend's Planescape campaign, and I love it! No longer does every mage with a simple detect magic can pinpoint my location when I have an invisibility spell on! :) Thanks to the Shadow Magic feats (my character has all four feats, thanks to his shadow_adept one level dip! :P ) other "regular weave" casters must make a caster level check to detect my magical auras... so it's great for a sneaky little bastard like my character! :D I'm playing a Gnome beguiler with the shadow weave feat and dipping into shadow adept soon. Indeed ths one level dip pays off. Since the origins of the SW are unclear, I made a background of this gnome being a roguish fella that got stranded in the Shadowplane, were he by accident got his 'powers'. It 'corrupt' him from CG to CN, but that's mainlyy to get into the Adept PrC. ...and mainly becaise of his experiences in the Shadow Plane. I'm not all that sure if Shar wants to corrupt all her SW wielders. Eventually the word gets out.
Meldread 08-02-07, 10:45 AM	Yes, I'm pretty sure Shar would happily let anyone who wants to use the Shadow Weave embrace it fully. It wouldn't matter if they are good or evil, lawful or chaotic. Once they embrace the Shadow Weave they are her playthings now. :p What Shar most likely would not allow is someone who embraced the Shadow Weave in an attempt to destroy it. For the same reasons, Mystra would not allow a person to cause harm to the Weave. However, I think Shar would allow anyone who wanted to use it to use it freely. Also, canonically speaking the Shadow Weave doesn't "corrupt" it's users, at least it isn't explicitly stated. However, I think most people agree that it SHOULD corrupt its users over time. My personal view is that the corruption doesn't necessarily make you evil, but it is more like drug addiction. The more you use the Shadow Weave the more you are drawn to it. You begin to feel the need to continue using it, to study it further, and eventually you become obsessed with it. Of course, this would not seem strange to the outside world. Wizard's are often obsessive over their magical studies. However, the obsession is on a whole new level for the wizards emotionally. In this way Shar can manipulate the Wizards to do what she wants if necessary. So in this way they do not have to be evil, but each of them would work tirelessly to prevent harm coming to the Shadow Weave.
Ramenth 08-03-07, 01:37 AM	I think it really depends on the reasoning behind the players choice and the interpretation of Shar. Some people see shar very much as a "DESTROY EVERYTHING" Goddess, focusing on her void-tendancies, while others focus more on the secret and night side, seeing her more as a trickster goddess with a penchant for annhilation. So I would say it's really up to you for the how and the why of it. House rules for my games don't bar the weave from Shadow Weave users right away; its a slow process. Our mage made a rather desperate deal with Shar for access to the weave and is finding it rather useful. In terms of in-character-ness, he hasn't learned yet that the more he uses the Shadow Weave the less access he'll have to the Weave.
Nicholas the Paladin 08-03-07, 07:04 AM	Also, canonically speaking the Shadow Weave doesn't "corrupt" it's users, at least it isn't explicitly stated. However, I think most people agree that it SHOULD corrupt its users over time. My personal view is that the corruption doesn't necessarily make you evil, but it is more like drug addiction. The more you use the Shadow Weave the more you are drawn to it. You begin to feel the need to continue using it, to study it further, and eventually you become obsessed with it.. Much like a wizard is obsessed with the Weave. Nothing special about that (okay, I admit ...Mystra is a much more pleasant gal than Shar).
Nicholas the Paladin 08-03-07, 07:06 AM	double post
Meldread 08-03-07, 06:24 PM	Much like a wizard is obsessed with the Weave. Nothing special about that (okay, I admit ...Mystra is a much more pleasant gal than Shar). Exactly. That is my point. No one else would really be able to notice a serious difference and to the outside he'd appear to be your average wizard. However, unknown to them and to himself is that his mind has slowly become warped as he has become addicted. If you've ever known anyone with a serious drug addiction then you can perhaps imagine. The main difference is the more you use the Shadow Weave, the more addicted you become, and you have a limitless supply. You end up trapped in a cycle that you can't escape, and by the time you realize you have a problem it is already too late. Once someone is in that frame of mind it makes them particularly susceptible to Shar and her teachings. It makes them easy to manipulate and convert.
Purple Dragon Knight 08-04-07, 01:01 AM	I don't know Meldread... Although it is obvious that some FR products/authors have taken this Shadow Weave to a place that looks like the "Dark Side of the Force", I strongly oppose this interpretation in my games. The "non-good" requirement of the Shadow Adept PrC is really the only canon source we have that says that good-aligned creatures can't "be all you can be" with the Shadow Weave. The actual "Shadow Weave Magic" feat has prerequisite: Wisdom 15 OR worship Shar. Which means that 50% of Shadow Weave users don't necessarily worship Shar right? ;) Furthermore, the Shadow Adept PrC and its "nongood" requirement gives you three free Shadow Magic feats at 1st level, and nowhere does it say that you *MUST* worship Shar there. Of course, one *could* feel the gentle guiding hand of Shar in the background here, which *could* say "drop your good alignment and I will give you a little 'gift'..." :D I could see two things happening: 1. Shar accepts good people fully into her Shadow Weave, and the Shadow Weave feats become available to all (i.e. the prerequisites of Wis 15 OR worship Shar would disappear, and Shadow Adept PrC becomes opened to all alignments) 2. We get into an "arms race" between Mystra and Shar. Recent FR products seems to indicate that Number 2 here is what's going to happen (i.e. Champions of Valor has feats for the clergy of Mystra which allow the user to destroy the Shadow Weave, repair dead magic areas, etc.)
Meldread 08-04-07, 06:47 AM	That's pretty much the way I see it over all. I think Shar will let anyone who discovers the Shadow Weave to use it, be they good, evil, or something in between. After all once you embrace it she controls your magic and she is not bound by the same rules as Mystra. Shar may never call upon you directly or indirectly, but she is empowered each time the Shadow Weave is used just as Mystra is empowered each time the Weave is used. The addiction thing isn't cannon, at least as far as I know. I simply like to think of the Shadow Weave as something that is alluring, intoxicating, something that when discovered draws people to embrace it. It just seems bland to say, "Well it's just like the regular Weave except you get some modifiers on some of your spell schools and can't cast light spells!" It makes the Shadow Weave rather flavorless, IMO which is why I think a lot of people like the idea that it is something like the "dark side of the force" myself included. The whole you need 15 Wisdom or have Shar as your Patron deity makes sense, considering Shar is often associated with insanity. The secrets and the "hidden power" of the Shadow Weave is just too much for "normal" minds to comprehend, and thus when they discover it without the mind to handle it, or without the divine guidance of Shar, they are driven insane. (That is the RP explanation.)
Purple Dragon Knight 08-05-07, 12:10 AM	"Uncover secrets and become insane!" Hmm... are we talking Shar or Cthulu here? :P
godbeepit 08-05-07, 12:30 AM	But wait, I thought Shar was Cthulu. Man, I'm so confused.
Slayergnome 08-05-07, 03:05 AM	I think there could be two other routes for the shadow weave. 1. You could learn how to tap directly into the Plane of Shadow. Which would divert you around Shar. But I would kinda think the Plane of Shadows itself is a dark bad place and siphoning energy from it would be unwise just like tapping Shar for energy (don't take that wrong..lol) 2. I think the Shadow weave is kinda like Magic in the Wheel of Time. Dip in to many times and you go mad. Like a bowl of water with oil on top. Put your hand in and when you pull it out you have a little bit of oil on your hands..keep it up and your get more and more...just like the madness and so forth.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-05-07, 05:58 PM	The actual "Shadow Weave Magic" feat has prerequisite: Wisdom 15 OR worship Shar. Which means that 50% of Shadow Weave users don't necessarily worship Shar right? ;) Note that those who don't choose Shar as their patron lose 2 points of Wisdom. Unless a deal of sorts is worked out among another deity. This shows the affect on those who don't accept Shars guidance. A dulling of ones perceptions and a step towards madness. This is the corruption of the Shadow Weave. The shadow weave is magic of illsuion, shadows and death all are designed to elude, decieve and control its subjects....be they targets or users.
Purple Dragon Knight 08-05-07, 07:15 PM	Note that those who don't choose Shar as their patron lose 2 points of Wisdom. Unless a deal of sorts is worked out among another deity. This shows the affect on those who don't accept Shars guidance. A dulling of ones perceptions and a step towards madness. This is the corruption of the Shadow Weave. The shadow weave is magic of illsuion, shadows and death all are designed to elude, decieve and control its subjects....be they targets or users. Shadow Weave Magic does not make you lose 2pts of Wis anymore, as its latest publication in the PGtoF.
Eli_the_Tanner 08-05-07, 07:32 PM	Ahh, that's a shame. I always felt that it was one of the reasons it was so dangerous and shoed the hold that Shar had over its users. Have the designers explained why they felt it was necessary to remove the wisdom penalty?
Gloomweave 09-09-07, 02:24 PM	I liked the wis penalty. And the the arms race is on. Im playing in an evil underdark camp. and looking forward to my wiz being graced as shars chosen. Now all he has to do pacify his dark godess with the death of a chosen of mystra. any one know how many chosen of mystra there are? anyone ever read about chosen of shar?:plotting:
Duedaine 09-09-07, 03:45 PM	I'm playing a Gnome beguiler with the shadow weave feat and dipping into shadow adept soon. Indeed ths one level dip pays off. Since the origins of the SW are unclear, I made a background of this gnome being a roguish fella that got stranded in the Shadowplane, were he by accident got his 'powers'. It 'corrupt' him from CG to CN, but that's mainlyy to get into the Adept PrC. ...and mainly becaise of his experiences in the Shadow Plane. I'm not all that sure if Shar wants to corrupt all her SW wielders. Eventually the word gets out. I was under the impression that when Karsus attempted to rise to godhood, Mystryl temporarily disabled all magic (hence the flying cities fell...) so that his spell wouldn't work. Back then, magic was much more powerful. This it is because it was whole. When Mystryl was reincarnated (or whatever) into the first Mystra, she lost something. The two halves were split. The Weave was cared for by Mystra. The Shadow Weave lay unseen in the spaces between the threads of the Weave. Shar happened across it and took over. I believe some of this info is in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, which a lot of you guys hate I'm sure because everyone else seems to.
Eli_the_Tanner 09-14-07, 04:46 PM	I was under the impression that when Karsus attempted to rise to godhood, Mystryl temporarily disabled all magic (hence the flying cities fell...) so that his spell wouldn't work. Back then, magic was much more powerful. This it is because it was whole. When Mystryl was reincarnated (or whatever) into the first Mystra, she lost something. The two halves were split. The Weave was cared for by Mystra. The Shadow Weave lay unseen in the spaces between the threads of the Weave. Shar happened across it and took over. I believe some of this info is in the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, which a lot of you guys hate I'm sure because everyone else seems to. There is a short story in the Realms of Shaodow anthology where Tealmont is experimenting with the shadow weave before Netheril's downfall - in fact, I think it was in Karsus' enclave(not sure about that though), this shows the Shadow Weave has been around since before Mystryls death.
Zarreth_Nessad 09-15-07, 03:42 PM	Mystryl didn't "disable" all magic on purpose.. the spell Karsus cast merged himself with her, and because he wasn't prepared for the burden of keeping the Weave running & godhood, magic failed (due to his ineptitude). Being an archmagus is one thing.. being a god is a whole new level. That's why the cities fell, not because Mystryl was trying to punish them. If Mystryl wanted to deny his spell from working, she could have just denied it to him. There wasn't any need to disable all magic.
Zarreth_Nessad 09-15-07, 03:44 PM	There is a short story in the Realms of Shaodow anthology where Tealmont is experimenting with the shadow weave before Netheril's downfall - in fact, I think it was in Karsus' enclave(not sure about that though), this shows the Shadow Weave has been around since before Mystryls death. Thought Lord Shadow had his own enclave?
Eli_the_Tanner 09-15-07, 04:01 PM	Thought Lord Shadow had his own enclave? He did(does) have his own enclave - shade. However the story is set some years before the casting of Karsus' Avatar, when he is beginning to unravel the mysteries of the Shadow weave. When Karsus finally casts his brand-new, shiny 12th level spell - Lord Shadow/Telamont has finished his research and is now back at his own enclave, where he transports his enclave (Shade) to the Shadow Plane. - and well we all know hat that panned out for him.
MerrikCale 09-16-07, 11:32 AM	Should I? No
Turin71 09-17-07, 12:59 PM	I'm not sure on what is considered canon or not, but it does say on the Forgotten Realms CS that if a caster uses the Shadow Weave without the aid of Shar one loses a bit of his mind. This is not a very revieling statement and there is no mechanical description of the effect so I guess it is all up to the DMs point of view like so many things are.
Turin71 09-17-07, 01:14 PM	I do think that some of you are thinking that using the Shadow Weave is in some way similar to a cleric getting spells from their patron. It is nothing like that. Most people that use the Weave don't even worship Mystra or care she did not approve of their use. It is just a tool for them not some kind of power gained through a connection to a god. So Shadow Weave users don't even have to know of Shar's existance (though we assume they do) to use the Shadow Weave.