Post/Author/DateTime	Post
BrennonGoldeye 04-03-08, 08:54 AM	I would love any ideas about the relationship between these four Ladies that aren't already decided in canon. Have a running idea that Selune is only an aspect. Thoughts?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-03-08, 10:10 AM	Selune is only an aspect of what?
Stigger 04-03-08, 11:22 AM	Sehanine perhaps... could be Sune though, considering she used to serve Sune.
Lord Karsus 04-03-08, 11:54 PM	-A relationship between Shar, Sune, Mystryl and Selūne? Invite Zandilar, and get the video camera! :D :P :embarrass
Stigger 04-04-08, 06:08 AM	Wouldn't that be Sharess these days? :P
Lord Karsus 04-04-08, 06:27 AM	Wouldn't that be Sharess these days? :P -Yeah, yeah, that one.
UnicornQueen 04-04-08, 06:35 AM	Selune I think is going to be a Greater Goddess because of Shar.:thinks: A relationship between Shar, Sune, Mystryl and Selūne? Invite Zandilar, and get the video camera! MEN!!!! :ahem:
Lord Karsus 04-04-08, 06:37 AM	MEN!!!! :ahem: -And just think: The guy who actually wrote that, Brennon, isn't even into any of that! Go figure.
UnicornQueen 04-04-08, 06:46 AM	And just think: The guy who actually wrote that, Brennon, isn't even into any of that! Go figure. :heehee I thought its all guys fantasy! :rofl:
Lord Karsus 04-04-08, 06:54 AM	:heehee I thought its all guys fantasy! :rofl: -Not our good friend Brennon.
Stigger 04-04-08, 07:00 AM	Not really into it myself... after three people, the tangle just gets too unmanageable and not really worth the effort.
BrennonGoldeye 04-04-08, 07:21 AM	Not really into it myself... after three people, the tangle just gets too unmanageable and not really worth the effort. How true. Ya never know whose elbow to nibble thankyou. :rimshot: The main twist I am working on here is that there are actually only 2 Goddesses. Part of my "production staff" for my groups thinks Selune has always been an aspect of Shar (making her the Goddess of Schitzoprenia) and the other part think Sune is Shar's true twin. You ffolk are great when it comes to looking at things in a new way. So just wanted to see what you might come up with. Bren.
Lord Karsus 04-04-08, 07:30 AM	-In my opinion, a dualistic light-darkness deity makes a lot more sense.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 04-04-08, 12:29 PM	Selune, only an aspect of Shar? I'm not into that, sorry. I'm not the biggest fan of Shar right now (she's so ubiquitous nowadays). I'm not into Sune being associated with Shar, either. Not saying these are totally bad ideas or that you shouldn't use them, they are just ideas I can't get behind and really help you with. Sorry.
Stigger 04-04-08, 02:18 PM	Not sure Sune has enough to do with creation for her to be Shar's twin... Chauntea would be more appropriate I think in a lot of respects. Shar's primordial nothingness and Chauntea's primordial creation sort of thing. Of course having said that, I've a lot of issues with the whole Shar/Selune thing myself, since it doesn't really make that much sense to me... but I don't think it really works, at least for me, that Shar and Selune are aspects on one or the other. Could be those heavily White-Wolf influenced ideas of mine, but I tend to see it more of as a case of Chauntea and Selune being sisters than Shar having anything to do with it.
Zsych 04-05-08, 04:28 PM	I think Chauntea is also one of Shar/Selune's creations. Selune as an aspect of Shar. I like the idea, but how to use it.... I assume Shar is being considered the real personality, with Selune her imaginary friend of sorts. Perhaps Selune could be Shar's hidden inner desires. I suppose you could have a case of Shar trying out her inner Selune-ish desires a little(random positive creation), and that suddenly diminishing Selune(and her clerics), creating sudden cause for concern among the other gods. I suppose one could make a campaign around trying to make the Selune side more dominant somehow, or stopping Shar from changing who she is, lest she become 1% more good, and Selune be erased. Or if Sune really were born of whatever Shar was born of, maybe she didn't pick up enough of the Selune side in her creation, making Shar kinda perverted, and for them to both achieve their max potential, Sune must absorb Selune(not so interesting unless you're on Sune's side, preparing an assault on Selune, while hiding the true meaning of your actions from Shar and the other gods) ... Not precisely sure where PCs would fit into this, but I'm sure you could do something.
Jiggawha 04-06-08, 07:01 AM	I like the Dark Moon heresy, whether or not is the truth, it's better to remain as a mystery
UnicornQueen 04-06-08, 07:05 AM	Selune created Chauntea by ripping a part of herself. That's why shes being a slighter lesser Goddess to Shar since the begining. What I remember about Shar is that she only created Mystra(forgot her old name) with Selune. Shar never want Toril to be created. :tantrum:
Stigger 04-06-08, 12:36 PM	Or one could say that the bond the two shared was actually the quiet presence of Sune in the background, since the emotional attachment they had was evidence Sune's power was there... one could even extend it that Sune actually pre-dates both... /Sunite Superiority Theory
Lord Karsus 04-06-08, 05:51 PM	What I remember about Shar is that she only created Mystra(forgot her old name) with Selune.:tantrum: -Mystryl.
msatran 04-07-08, 04:07 AM	What does it matter? It's all tofu now.
Lord Karsus 04-07-08, 04:11 AM	What does it matter? It's all tofu now. -That something doesn't exist doesn't mean an individual or individuals should be limited in the exchanges and discussions pertaining to said ideas. -And anyway, the longer 'we' keep them alive, right...?
UnicornQueen 04-07-08, 07:14 AM	Originally Posted by Lord Karsus And anyway, the longer 'we' keep them alive, right...? I'm with you! :bravo:
Lord Karsus 04-08-08, 02:00 AM	I'm with you! :bravo: -Exactly.
BrennonGoldeye 04-08-08, 10:07 AM	Then come on guys. What if Sune has always been the "light" twin? Could She have actually hid that "secret" from Shar? Could the attack upon Shar that created Mystryl also held an Uberspell that caused her to aim her antipathy toward the only "sister" she knew of? Could Pastrami actually be to blame? ;)
Stigger 04-08-08, 10:11 AM	Can't be pastrami... my wife likes pastrami... she's not too fond of bologna though, so it could be that. As to Sune hiding things from Shar... not too likely, given Shar's portfolio. How about their mother though? Nah, that sounds a bit too cheesy too... feh, I'd just leave things the way the are... semi-plausible in their explanation, but without any real concrete evidence any way it goes... one of those mysteries mortals will just never really know. ;)
BrennonGoldeye 04-08-08, 10:21 AM	Can't be pastrami... my wife likes pastrami... she's not too fond of bologna though, so it could be that. As to Sune hiding things from Shar... not too likely, given Shar's portfolio. How about their mother though? Nah, that sounds a bit too cheesy too... feh, I'd just leave things the way the are... semi-plausible in their explanation, but without any real concrete evidence any way it goes... one of those mysteries mortals will just never really know. ;) Hmmmm...... We Jas as the "Mom" of them all. Just kooky enough to get them off my back so I can get back to planning out their Dragon Mountain trek. :evillaugh Next?
Lord Karsus 04-08-08, 10:22 AM	Then come on guys. What if Sune has always been the "light" twin? Could She have actually hid that "secret" from Shar? Could the attack upon Shar that created Mystryl also held an Uberspell that caused her to aim her antipathy toward the only "sister" she knew of? Could Pastrami actually be to blame? ;) -As was said, it just doesn't sound very plausible, that's all. Pastrami could be to blame, though.
BrennonGoldeye 04-08-08, 10:45 AM	:confused: I think a secret being kept from Shar(that secret being Love) appropriate. She sees only Loss and Darkness. If there is one thing that could be hidden from Her it would be the fact that She is loved. Sorry, its that hated Hippie in me. ;)
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 04-08-08, 10:55 AM	Hippies :nonono:
Stigger 04-08-08, 11:57 AM	You actually raise a good point there Brennon... that would be one of the few exceptions to hiding something from her I think. Still, you being a hippy makes me discount the idea out of hand. :P ;)
The_Shaman 04-10-08, 02:16 AM	[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][COLOR="Blue"]Selune created Chauntea by ripping a part of herself. That's why shes being a slighter lesser Goddess to Shar since the begining. Wasn't that Mystryl? I think Chauntea asked her to bring warmth to the world, and that was before their fight with Shar - the reason for it, in fact. I do not remember Selune ripping anyone from her before the creation of Mystryl.
Zsych 04-10-08, 03:43 AM	I think Selune and Shar were on good terms and co-creating(worlds without life perhaps?) for the most part, until Selune decided to do the one thing that Shar could not tolerate.
BrennonGoldeye 04-10-08, 08:58 AM	I think Selune and Shar were on good terms and co-creating(worlds without life perhaps?) for the most part, until Selune decided to do the one thing that Shar could not tolerate. That's the way it's badly explained in lore. My question is why create big lumps of rock or gas? Godly Marbles? Galactic windchimes? The idea that Shar was so stupid to think they were just making decorations is laughable. By the way, nice to see ya Zsych, ya crazy coot you.;)
Lord Karsus 04-10-08, 10:54 AM	My question is why create big lumps of rock or gas? -Use your imagination, I don't know. Why do deities do anything?
Stigger 04-10-08, 05:36 PM	To be honest, that story doesn't make much sense... and tends to be something I usually ignore as a DM.
The_Shaman 04-12-08, 10:38 AM	Well, considering that the only ones who know of the incident were the direct participants, and thus biased, how it actually took place is anyone's guess. If Selune and Shar, for whatever reason, want everyone to believe that story, who is to stop them, Ao?
Lord Karsus 04-12-08, 10:48 AM	If Selune and Shar, for whatever reason, want everyone to believe that story, who is to stop them, Ao? -I could see Cyric attempting to discredit them. You know, in achieving such power, HE saw the truth, and it isn't what Shar and Selūne preach. Of course, being the liar that he is...
buzzard 04-12-08, 04:17 PM	That's the way it's badly explained in lore. My question is why create big lumps of rock or gas? Godly Marbles? Galactic windchimes? The idea that Shar was so stupid to think they were just making decorations is laughable. By the way, nice to see ya Zsych, ya crazy coot you.;) Shar and Selūne didn't create merely big lumps of rock or gas, with the creation of Toril, Chauntea came into existence with her very own life and consciousness. Shar didn't want for Toril to have other life forms because such beings would have made the world a very noisy place and she prefers the tranquility of non-existence. It seems that at first she didn't care about having some additional company in the universe but then Selūne and Chauntea got greedy (in Shar's point of view) and she was royally ******.
BrennonGoldeye 04-12-08, 08:52 PM	Shar and Selūne didn't create merely big lumps of rock or gas, with the creation of Toril, Chauntea came into existence with her very own life and consciousness. Shar didn't want for Toril to have other life forms because such beings would have made the world a very noisy place and she prefers the tranquility of non-existence. It seems that at first she didn't care about having some additional company in the universe but then Selūne and Chauntea got greedy (in Shar's point of view) and she was royally ******. Hmm. So was it the creation of the lump of nonliving rock that brought about Chauntea? If it was then we have multiple entities here, cause our rock isn't the only one floating around in this sphere. That makes this more of a Deific BradyBunch episode than an UberOlsen fight. Hmmm.... Brenny like. :clap:
The_Shaman 04-15-08, 07:53 PM	-I could see Cyric attempting to discredit them. You know, in achieving such power, HE saw the truth, and it isn't what Shar and Selūne preach. Of course, being the liar that he is... Hmm, quite possible. Of course, all except his own toadies believe he knows about as much of the matter as his drunk nanny once told him, and as she's the same one who still has him hooked on the orc tooth fairy story. P.S.: This is not to mean that the orc tooth fairy, Grukmuth, does not exist, but he - or she, no one asked them what they have under the armor and lived to relate the story - doesn't bother with snotty human kids. Elf kids taste better, anyway.
SATA 04-16-08, 12:41 AM	Is not exactly what the thread is about but I've been working in a theory, a WHAT IF of The Realms, and maybe, I don't know, it could be useful, still a work in process but anyway, so briefly here it is... In the WHAT IF, an alternate Realms, where everything have happened like we know, there is an untold truth behind creation. Shar pose as a goddess along side the rest of the deities, a being who is known, along side her supposed sister the goddess Selune, to start it all, but now she is striving to end it. In reality, she is the proxy of Lord AO, an entity who form part of a group of intergalactic beings, who measure their power by how powerful and how many spheres they control. AO, wanting to have the upper hand against his companions for un-detailed reasons, begin a project to create a sphere to gain more power. He use Shar to speed up the process, since every sphere need a certain amount of 'things' to really profit the holder. So Shar serve to incentive every being who play a role and have some involvement in the sphere, every race, every deity, everything, just to speed up the evolutionary process necessary to fulfill AO's experiment.
VedounMar 04-20-08, 12:47 AM	Possibly too far off from what you are looking for. . . but what the hey. . . During a somewhat recent campaign, I gave a vision to my players which portrayed Shar as a ginormous black hole with a swirling purplish nebula surrounding it. The description went something along the lines of a deep circular void sitting within a violet mist, which swirls down endlessly into the darkness. Uncountable stars accompany the mist, being torn apart as they are dragged into the darkness. Annihilation on a scale before unimaginable, and still incomprehensible. Essentially I found that neither the feathery mask, nor the starry erotic dancer, nor the hodgepodge collection of classes to be a very inspiring representation of THE primordial deity of darkness. Her description and symbol inspired me to reminisce about the days of yore, when the sun, moon and earth were perceived as great spirits/gods. A more animistic look of the supernatural. Afterwards I thought that this representation (a sentient black hole, with god-like powers beside), would be terrifying enough in aspect to crush the hopes of those who so much as had a glimpse of the truth. I could see people worshiping her after being driven mad by the realization, or perhaps, exchanging devotion for the opportunity to forget. . . Nowadays, reading the beginning of her description in Faiths and Pantheons (especially the first paragraph), conflicts rather steeply with the rather adolescent description of her avatars, later within the same description. An avatar certainly may show up in a more humanoid form(though not that dancer crap), but the more animistic approach for her "true" form seemed more appropriate. This does shift things about a bit. The deities from the beginning of creation would be similarly animistic: Chauntea the planet Toril, Selune the broken moon. Later Deities (after mortal creatures came about), would more retain their canon descriptions(ascended mortals, and deities formed from mortal belief). I haven't gone and done any such conversion, as that would require effort. Dabbling a bit into the old Planescape ideas, where belief itself could shape the world even allows for a chance to stop, or at least slow down Shar. Thus establishing exactly what Selune and Shar are currently battling over. . . Shar spreading despair to hasten her success, Selune doing the opposite to delay or even prevent the "inevitable". I tend to ignore Sune. . . I perceive her as lacking a certain punch. Hope this gives some interesting ideas. . .
Jiggawha 04-23-08, 04:18 AM	In my campaign, don't have an enormous black hole, but Toril (Chauntea) has seven chakras (wheels of light) and the central heart has turned into a ''heart of darkness'' that slowly destroys the planet. Doomguard of Shar ensure that nobody knows about it (even tough thousands of miles around it is a lifeless, dominated with undead continent that replaced Zakhara).
Lord Karsus 04-23-08, 11:57 AM	-Scientifically speaking, every galaxy has a supermassive black hole. So, there you go: Shar. And, it makes sense, when you think about it. I mean, her sister and daughters all have actual manifestations: Mystryl/Mystra was/is the Weave, Selūne is Selūne (the moon), and Chauntea is Abeir-Toril, so Shar being, literally, a black hole actually fits in nicely.
Zsych 04-24-08, 10:22 PM	I think the idea of Shar putting up a front and not having the objectives we've been told would make for a good in-game twist. As for the Shar/Selune battle. I personally am not of the impression that Shar was actually upset at the existence of other beings. For some reason she did not like the light - Selune should've tried to develop lifeforms that didn't need heat and the sun as the primary power source for their existence(should've created negative planar creatures instead :P ) ... Not that this was a useful contribution to this discussion. --- Perhaps we could say that there was always an essence of craziness and decay in Shar. Ao found her as a powerful but otherwise non-moving entity, and using his power, made her violate her natural inclinations. He also either suppressed Sune, or Sune was just also mostly non-moving in her original state, and couldn't be bothered to move immediately even when circumstances changed. ... Over time, violating her basic nature caused a break in Shar's mind. For although she obeyed Ao's will, part of her sought to return to her peace, as the rest of her continued on her new task. Over time these inclinations expanded into whole personalities with contradictory purposes but still essentially one being(and most people don't really hate themselves)... until the Selune side finally went too far, and laid the basis for the complete violation of the peace that Shar sought for herself... causing the Shar side to seek to fully separate herself, which resulted in a war for dominance that eventually lead to the two dieties we know today. Sune on the other hand, never having been forced, and never having faced such conflict within herself, remaind mostly at peace, and over time noticing the changes, slowly evolved into the simple minded being we know now. I'd say in this that Shar was always the stronger of her and Selune, but had different inclinations, and that the Selune persona was just more active. ... Shar's long term and clever plans could just be a type of laziness. Not being inclined to act quickly and brashly, she thinks for a long time, and slowly acts... in a way that more impatient and simpler minded people may find devastating. @Brennon: Its always good to see you guys again also, my friend.
King-bargh 04-30-08, 07:35 PM	I think the idea of Shar putting up a front and not having the objectives we've been told would make for a good in-game twist. As for the Shar/Selune battle. I personally am not of the impression that Shar was actually upset at the existence of other beings. For some reason she did not like the light - Selune should've tried to develop lifeforms that didn't need heat and the sun as the primary power source for their existence(should've created negative planar creatures instead :P ) ... Not that this was a useful contribution to this discussion. . Perhaps not but the "negative life" idea reflects my own that Toril is imbalanced towards the "Positive". That is full of life and possibilities. exactly how more balanced life forms would look like I dont know but perhaps Devourers, aboleths, ilithiids or elemantals...?
pilif1 05-07-08, 04:12 AM	Shar is acctuly the "imaginary" sister of Selune. When IO created them Selune killed her sister out of jelosey and then took on her personality. Sune as the Goddess of Beauty Dislikes The Ulgyness of Shars Hatred. Mystral as Goddess of magic wants to fix the split Personality.