Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Adastra 04-10-07, 03:41 AM	Sorry if this is posted in the wrong spot, but it seemed to be the right place. Anyway, I'm starting up a new campaign for my group and I'm thinking about drawing on the hinted future conflict of Shar possibly making a move to steal part of Mask's portfolio. Since both deities have rather mobilized and strong followers, I'm wondering if any of you might have some suggestions on how this might unfold and possible ideas for me to run with. Right now, I'm planning on having the players on Mask's side. Any ideas would be great. Thanks in advance. :)
Lord Karsus 04-10-07, 11:21 AM	-Well, I'll suggest you pick up the novel Shadowbred, and the next two novels in the Twilight War Trilogy when they come out, since the series deal with the conflict between Shar and Mask. You also might want to take a look at the three-part "Super Adventure", of which Part One is availible, since it also deals with that same plotline, more or less.
Adastra 04-10-07, 01:45 PM	Was kind of hoping for some gereralized ideas to make some adventures out of, not really looking to read a book. But thanks for the suggestion. Anyone else have any ideas?
Meldread 04-10-07, 03:40 PM	During the time of Netheril Shar had the following portfolios: dark, night, hatred, loss, forgetfulness, sleep, nightmares, illusions, lies, trickery, unrevealed secrets, hiding places, betrayal, treachery, seduction, thieves, thievery, murder and winter. I don't see any reason she couldn't completely subsume Mask and take all of his portfolios. She was a deity of thieves once, and there is no reason she could not be again. She has only shown interest in the portfolio of shadows, though. The likelihood of Mask actually defeating Shar in a meaningful way (outside of the Novels) is small, and at best all he could do is hold onto his current portfolios. However, in the big scheme of things to Shar, Mask is small potatoes.
Adastra 04-10-07, 04:28 PM	I'm not a FR novel reader. Partially because I'm still learning material from the campaign books, and partially because I'm an extremely slow reader. Could someone explain to me how exactly a deity takes another's portfolio, in part or whole? That might help me come up with some ideas. And to respond to the above post: Yes, I was mainly looking at some kind of assault on Mask to take back Shadows, not everything.
Erevis Cale 04-10-07, 06:07 PM	Adastra, I know you've expressed disinterest in reading Shadowbred or looking at the mega-adventures, but Lord Karsus is right, they'd probably help you out a great deal. As for the ideas regarding Shar trying to steal Mask's portfolios, well, Shar really does have bigger fish to fry right now. If anything, Mask will probably end up stealing something more from Shar (or regaining "Intrigue" from Cyric for that matter...). Perhaps in your campaign Shar could be making a play on Mask, only to find out that the God of Thieves has anticipated this and countered it in the form of your PCs. Shar could end up reaching too far and have the tables turned on her; considering the grand plays Mask has made (and succeeded at) lately, he'd probably come out of it for the better. It could be interesting, but it would require some good planning on your part to pull off a great story of deception. As for the changing of portfolios, this usually occurs when a god or goddess stretches too far for power and fails. Typically, the most common way for a divinity to obtain another divinity's portfolio is to kill said divinity. Good luck with that, hope the ideas help!
Mirtek 04-10-07, 06:20 PM	As for the ideas regarding Shar trying to steal Mask's portfolios, well, Shar really does have bigger fish to fry right now. Compared to Shar, Mask is not even a fish, he's a pollywog. He's not even a real snack for Shar.
Adastra 04-10-07, 07:28 PM	Well, I gave in and picked up Shadowbred. :surrender Hopefully it will help. As far as Mask not even registering with Shar, I'm not sure I can agree with you, even with my limited FR knowledge. It's mentioned in the Faiths and Pantheons, page 58. "Shar may attempt to consume Mask as well, fo rshe nurses a cold anger for his dominion over shadow." Thanks for all the suggestions so far. Please keep them coming if there are more!
Meldread 04-10-07, 07:49 PM	It's true that Shar wants to have dominion over shadows, but I think that is largely due to the fact that one of her dominate portfolios is darkness and shadow is an aspect of darkness. However, it is important to remember that Shar is ultimately opposed to everyone and everything, as she wants to see life itself snuffed out and for the universe to return to its original state of nothingness. This ultimately puts her into conflict with every single deity, aside from perhaps Jergal. I seriously doubt that in a real campaign setting, if Shar is played correctly that she could lose to Mask. She has more resources and power than Mask both divine energy wise and worshiper wise, and even in the areas where Mask is strong (such as intrigue) Shar is arguably even stronger. He may be able to out do her as a thief, but if he attracts her wrath - all I can do is feel sorry for him. He might be able to get away with a few initial attacks as her attention seems to be focused elsewhere at the moment, but the second it seems obvious he is up to something she will be all over him. Really, I don't see Mask as making the first strike. I see him preparing for an attack from Shar to take the portfolio of shadows. Additionally, she doesn't really have any portfolios that could be of interest to him so attacking her would gain him nothing. If he made any assault against Shar it would be against her mortal worshipers in an effort to weaken her incase she decides to attack him. Perhaps stealing a powerful artifact or something along those lines to use as a bargaining chip or something to use defensively if attacked.
Adastra 04-10-07, 08:18 PM	Additionally, she doesn't really have any portfolios that could be of interest to him so attacking her would gain him nothing. What about night, secrets, rogues and shadowdancers? If he made any assault against Shar it would be against her mortal worshipers in an effort to weaken her incase she decides to attack him. Perhaps stealing a powerful artifact or something along those lines to use as a bargaining chip or something to use defensively if attacked. Might use an idea like this one. :)
Burningspear 04-10-07, 09:03 PM	Compared to Shar, Mask is not even a fish, he's a pollywog. He's not even a real snack for Shar. Go Mask, Go Mask, Go Mask :cheer: .
Meldread 04-10-07, 09:20 PM	She doesn't hold the portfolio of rogues or shadowdancers. There is some debate over whether or not Shar is intimately tied to the aspect of night in the same way Mystra is intimately tied to the Weave. (Example: If Mystra dies the Weave - and therefore magic - ceases to exist. The debate is over if Shar is linked to the night and darkness the same way.) I highly doubt he could ever take the portfolio of secrets as it is an integral part of Shar and she has held that portfolio for way over 1,000 years (perhaps since the beginning). If Mask could snag anything from her I'd wager he'd likely walk away with the portfolio of dungeons. Perhaps to try and gain a larger following among adventurers. If I was running this campaign, I'd basically try and look at things for the long term. If it was just starting you are going to want to start small and have it build up. Both Mask and Shar are Neutral Evil, the alignments needed to be Clerics of the deities are the same and their domains are both on the Plane of Shadows - keep this in mind. I would encourage the players to pick from the following alignments for their characters: NE, CN, CE and LE. Have them all somehow be linked to the Church of Mask, and all brought to a specific place at a specific time for a specific task. Their task, seemingly, would be simple. They are to go out and get information on an object that the Church wants in its possession. If they are successful at this they will be rewarded. Have them do this and upon locating the object the church wants, they would be rewarded and tasked with retrieving the item. Ensure that the value of the item is down played, but in a non suspicious way - have it seem to be a trophy or have some sentimental value to the church. Have the Church of Shar looking for the same artifact, thus bringing the players into conflict with her church. Once the players get it, have them return it to the Church of Mask. Have various bits of intrigue and what not play out during this time, along with strange things happening that don't make much sense. Have the players be in even more conflict with Shar's church and then finally, have the true nature of Mask revealed to the PC's... as Shar. No one has ever seen Mask's true identity, so you could pull this off. Shar has also held all Mask's portfolios at one time or another, and her masquerading around as another deity is not uncommon either. Ensure that hints are dropped along the way to leave the players guessing. Finally - during the second half of the campaign, have the true nature of the artifact revealed and begin working toward something more epic. Perhaps a direct assault on the Church of Mystra or the Church of Selune... or perhaps even a direct assault upon Cyric on behalf of "Mask" to destroy him completely with the Church of Shar "allying" with the Church of Cyric against Mask. Whatever you do, just throw in lots of plot twists, lots of intrigue and lots of skulking around in the shadows and your campaign should be fine.
Adastra 04-10-07, 09:34 PM	Very solid ideas. Thanks Meldread! :D
Adastra 04-10-07, 09:45 PM	Oh, yeah. Forgot something. I'm a bit confused on the night/dark portfolio thing, though. They separate the two. When you think about it, night is just a shadow. Dark is more of a broad concept. So I could see how she could lose night to Mask and keep dark....kind of. Shar's ideal dark is more of a complete void, right?
Ramenth 04-11-07, 01:32 PM	Shar wants the portfolio of Shadow though, at least from what's mentioned in RoTW.
GothicDan 04-11-07, 02:27 PM	I'm a bit confused on the night/dark portfolio thing, though. They separate the two. When you think about it, night is just a shadow. Dark is more of a broad concept. So I could see how she could lose night to Mask and keep dark....kind of. Shar's ideal dark is more of a complete void, right? And darkness is just the absence of light, so logically, a deity of light could also be a deity of darkness (withholding light)... The point is, though, there's cultural and traditional reasons the portfolios are separate, just like the Greeks separated the Underworld and the dead (Hades) from death (Thanatos), and the hearth/family (Hestia) from wives (Hera), and love/passion (Aphrodite) from primal force of lust and attraction (Eros).
The Ranger 04-12-07, 12:10 AM	I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that while in a one-on-one Deity Death Match Shar would probably slaughter Mask, I think the Lord of Shadows would be able to hold his own otherwise. He did after all help slay Bane, survive (although barely) reading the Cyrinishad, steal an entire temple dedicated to Cyric (a greater deity), avoid Kezef the Chaos Hound long enough to obtain the one sword in the multiverse the god-chomping hound fears and various other feats of cunning. Moreover while Shar may be more powerful and perhaps even have more followers, Mask does command the second wealthiest church in Faerun. That coupled with the fact that his church is made up almost entirely of worshippers who are used to fighting in the shadows make me think that he would have more than a sporting chance against Shar and her minions.
Lord Karsus 04-12-07, 08:53 AM	-You know, that reminds me... -We haven't seen the Chaos Hound for some time now. I know Mask has Houndsbane, but do you really think that a single sword would cause Kenzef to completely give up? It would be interesting (in a campaign, or perhaps in the canon Realms) to see if, with this conflict between Shar and Mask, the Lady of Loss brokers a deal with the Chaos Hound to seal Mask's fate for good.
ShadezofDis 04-12-07, 11:17 AM	-You know, that reminds me... -We haven't seen the Chaos Hound for some time now. I know Mask has Houndsbane, but do you really think that a single sword would cause Kenzef to completely give up? It would be interesting (in a campaign, or perhaps in the canon Realms) to see if, with this conflict between Shar and Mask, the Lady of Loss brokers a deal with the Chaos Hound to seal Mask's fate for good. Hehe, I'm just imagining the amount of duplicity in such a deal. I mean, Shar isn't the best known for holding up her end of a deal and the Chaos Hound says all we need to know about Kenzef's likelyhood of holding up his end of a deal (though the deal would probably be a-ok for Kenzef since he wants to gobble Mask up but I don't really think Kenzef would want to make a deal with Shar) Bah, getting a little too far into the "thinking as I'm writing" for things to turn out well from this point on ;)
Sylock 04-12-07, 02:15 PM	Really, I don't see Mask as making the first strike. I see him preparing for an attack from Shar to take the portfolio of shadows. Additionally, she doesn't really have any portfolios that could be of interest to him so attacking her would gain him nothing. Wow, I must totally see things ... differently. Mask may not want any domains of Shar (I'm not saying he doesn't, he'd take a few of course), but I think he is making a play at being able to touch Shadow Magic. Mask is going to come out of Pauls next two novels very well connected. He's going to get Intrigue back from Cyric somehow, and he's going to weasal a way to give access to Shadow Magic. Shar will still 'own' S.M., but Mask will be able to funnel it to his followers without her consent. Spoiler: Shot sorry, guess I didn't know the spoiler tag. Mask is moving up, I promise you that.
Mirtek 04-12-07, 03:37 PM	He did after all help slay Bane, Bhaal, not Bane survive (although barely) If should have never tried to shield someone from it's power in the first place. But so should Cyric have never read it in the first place too. steal an entire temple dedicated to Cyric (a greater deity) He didn't steal it, he just took it after the original thief left it behind. In any case it's just a single building and one that Cyric doesn't seem to treasure (or he could have warned his clergy there weeks in advance that the Sojourner would come) avoid Kezef the Chaos Hound long enough to obtain the one sword in the multiverse the god-chomping hound fears and various other feats of cunning. That was nothing cunning on his part, he was desperately running for his life until he got lucky and Mystra showed up and gave him the blade as present. Without her helping him for reasons of her own he would still be running today. Moreover while Shar may be more powerful and perhaps even have more followers, Mask does command the second wealthiest church in Faerun. That coupled with the fact that his church is made up almost entirely of worshippers who are used to fighting in the shadows make me think that he would have more than a sporting chance against Shar and her minions. Shar was already there before Toril was merely a ball of hot magma in the emptiness of Realmspace.
Meldread 04-12-07, 04:00 PM	Sylock- I don't doubt that Mask is a clever deity, and my responses were mostly aimed at a head to head conflict. In such a conflict, out in the open, Mask is doomed against Shar. I don't doubt he can take intrigue away from Cyric. While Cyric is technically more powerful, Cyric lacks what one might call... intelligence. All of his power came to him out of happenstance and luck... and personally I don't think Cyric is long for this world. I don't see him being around for the next 100 years. He has too much inexperience, too many enemies and lacks the intellectual ability to pull it all together. Mask might find a way to funnel the Shadow Weave to his followers without Shar's consent... but personally, I think that's a very stupid thing for him to do. Not only would it **** off Mystra, I wouldn't want to touch anything of Shar's with a ten foot pole, let alone give it to my mortal worshipers. My money is on Shar in that one - he might find what he THINKS is a way to funnel access to the Shadow Weave to his followers, only to later find out Shar set him up. It'd be the old, "Oh no! You've got me!" Followed by a feign of defeat, only to be followed by Shar gobbling up Mask as a midnight snack. :P Really, there should be a rulebook for the gods of Toril, and at the top should be never ever trust Shar or anything Shar has indirectly influenced or had contact with because, if you do, in the end you will regret it... if you live long enough to regret it. If I were Mask, I'd ally with Mystra an offer to assist in her wrestling the Shadow Weave from Shar's control. It might turn out badly, even then, but at least he'd have some cover if things do go bad.
Zevox 04-12-07, 04:49 PM	He didn't steal it, he just took it after the original thief left it behind. He had his Chosen on the tails of the thieves almost from the inception of their plot. That can hardly be a coincidence. In any case it's just a single building and one that Cyric doesn't seem to treasure (or he could have warned his clergy there weeks in advance that the Sojourner would come) I believe you have a contradiction here. On the one hand, you say that Mask had nothing to do with the theft, and on the other that Cyric would have known about it in advance to warn about it. If Cyric would know of it in advance, surely Mask would also, and thus be able to orchestrate it so it occurred as it did - the Tower falling into his hands. If Mask didn't do so, surely Cyric could not have known it was to occur, in which case he couldn't warn his priesthood about it. Neither is omniscient, and Cyric was on the reactionary end here, so it couldn't be that Mask was unaware of this completely while Cyric knew all about it. Shar was already there before Toril was merely a ball of hot magma in the emptiness of Realmspace. Greater age does not equate to inherent superiority. Re: The current situation w/ Mask & Shar - I don't think Mask is actually going to do anything at all with Shar. Hes no fool, and unless what he stole from her were to deprive her of the majority of her power, he'd have to be to strike at her with his current strength. In the book Dawn of Night though, Cale sees a vision of Mask stepping out of Shar's shadow to stab at Cyric while laughing. I expect thats an allusion to current events - while Shar is wrapped up in her "Cycle of Shadows" event, Mask will use the distraction to at least take back Intrigue from the Mad God, possibly even kill him outright (though that may just be my wishful thinking). Zevox
Vasyek 04-12-07, 09:50 PM	He had his Chosen on the tails of the thieves almost from the inception of their plot. That can hardly be a coincidence. Certainly not coincidence, but the product of reaction as opposed to agency. He did not aid, late alone orchestrate, the theft in any way: he simply responded to it. His chosen can be credited with surviving encounters with the Sojourner's minions and ultimately with duping and killing (most of) them, but as for the Sojourner himself... had he not been satisfied with what came to pass, there's no way the temple would have just fallen into Mask's hands, and if he hadn't been inclined to pursue his last hurrah to begin with, the temple would still be in the hands of Cyricists. As such, Mask merely benefited from circumstances beyond his control. I believe you have a contradiction here. On the one hand, you say that Mask had nothing to do with the theft, and on the other that Cyric would have known about it in advance to warn about it. If Cyric would know of it in advance, surely Mask would also, and thus be able to orchestrate it so it occurred as it did - the Tower falling into his hands. Cyric had outlets for his divine senses that would have been triggered in this situation that Mask did not, however. The first was an easy channel to the maneuverings of the Slaad while Vraggen was alive and kicking, and the second was the impending threat to one of his temples. In addition to those two factors, there was the fact that as a greater god and present holder of the intrigue portfolio, Cyric would have been appraised of the events before Mask was as a simple consequence of the way their respective portfolio senses work. That said, I'm not sure either would have had a complete picture of what was intended until near the end of what took place, as the Sojourner himself wasn't on Faerun until around that time, if memory serves. Cyric certainly would have had forewarning of the danger to the Twin Towers of the Eternal Eclipse, since that obviously took place within his sphere of power/influence in various ways, but it's debatable that Mask would. Cyric would be assured to not only due to the fact that it was a concentration of mortal faith directed to him, but also given the Strife and Murder that took place when the Sojourner came calling. Mask, on the other hand, had only one potential lead on to the situation: his province over theft. The question then becomes whether the Sojourner's actions were truly a matter of theft or of conquest/violent seizure, which the likes of Bane, Tempus, and again Cyric would be far more prone to detect than Mask.
Cli' San Aquanova 04-12-07, 11:08 PM	Hmmm... something tells me I've been here before.... :P
Vasyek 04-12-07, 11:24 PM	Hey, at least I'm quibbling over a different set of books/events this time. Beyond that I'm not interested in taking this into Mask vs. Cyric territory, and preemptively declare my intention to abstain from such shenanigans if they should further encroach here (barring anything new being raised on that count; assuming the shock of that wouldn't finish me off first.)
Zevox 04-12-07, 11:34 PM	@ Vaysek - From the look of things, the difference of our opinions here stems from one thing. You give credence to the stats given to the Gods by F&P (and thus the "portfolio sense" thing). I do not. Zevox
The Ranger 04-13-07, 12:38 AM	Bhaal, not Bane Very well then, Bhaal. It's been a long time since I read those books. He nevertheless was instrumental in killing a major god. Shar was already there before Toril was merely a ball of hot magma in the emptiness of Realmspace. I'd still put money on Mask.
Mirtek 04-13-07, 12:00 PM	I believe you have a contradiction here. On the one hand, you say that Mask had nothing to do with the theft, and on the other that Cyric would have known about it in advance to warn about it. If Cyric would know of it in advance, surely Mask would also, No, only Cyric. As a greater deity he knew of the dead of his priests there 16 weeks in advance. Mask, as a intermediate deity doesn't have this power. Neither is omniscient, and Cyric was on the reactionary end here, so it couldn't be that Mask was unaware of this completely while Cyric knew all about it. Not omniscient, it's part of Cyric portfolio sense as a greater deity. Mask will use the distraction to at least take back Intrigue from the Mad God, possibly even kill him outright (though that may just be my wishful thinking). If he is stupid enough he might try and in thise case I predict it will end badly for Mask. For a time it seemed as if he had learned his lesson to stay as far away from Cyric as he could, but Cyric will be glad to remind him. He messed with Cyric three times and as a result he was almost slain in the first two attempts and humiliated in third.
Adastra 04-13-07, 12:49 PM	Um, pardon my ignorance as I'm not nearly as versed with FR as the rest of the people in this conversation... but where is all of this information you're talking about coming from? (Book names) I'd like to get caught up.
Mirtek 04-13-07, 01:25 PM	Annother idea that just came to my mind: Shar wants to get Cyric to switch to the shadow weave for granting spells to his clergy. Maybe Shar will offer Mask as a sacrifice to make the deal sweeter for Cyric. @Adastra Faiths&Avatars Faiths&Pantheons Avatar Triology (Shadowdale, Tantras, Waterdeep) Prince of Lies Crucible: The Trial of Cyric the Mad Erevis Cale Trilogy (Twillight Falling, Dawn of Night, Midnight's Mask) Twilight War Trilogy (Shadowbred, Shadowstorm (Aug07), Shadowrealm(2008))
Zevox 04-13-07, 04:28 PM	No, only Cyric. As a greater deity he knew of the dead of his priests there 16 weeks in advance. Mask, as a intermediate deity doesn't have this power. Not omniscient, it's part of Cyric portfolio sense as a greater deity. As I said with Vaysek, I don't give credence to the stats given the Gods by F&P. Giving stats to Gods is one of the stupidest things WotC has ever done, IMHO. If he is stupid enough he might try and in thise case I predict it will end badly for Mask. For a time it seemed as if he had learned his lesson to stay as far away from Cyric as he could, but Cyric will be glad to remind him. Lets just say we obviously have vastly different interpretations of Mask and Cyric's relative levels of intelligence and competence, then (I think we've established that well enough in the past). Unless Cyric's streak of dumb luck continues, I fully expect him to take a fall soon, probably at Mask's hands. Zevox
Vasyek 04-13-07, 04:39 PM	@ Vaysek - From the look of things, the difference of our opinions here stems from one thing. You give credence to the stats given to the Gods by F&P (and thus the "portfolio sense" thing). I do not. From the look of things? Maybe if you missed the first part of my post... you know, the one that explains why it wasn't so much an accomplishment as good fortune for Mask. Or maybe I'm the one missing something here, did you more or less agree with Mirtek's initial statement to begin with? To be honest, I'm not sure where that whole disavowal of coincidence bit came from to begin with. Giving stats to Gods is one of the stupidest things WotC has ever done, IMHO. Things like awareness of one's worshipers and precognitive attunement to associated portfolios just happen to make sense in spite of however a fine or poor idea stating the gods might have been overall. But if you hate Faith and Pantheons so much, I don't mind going by the parameters set by Faith and Avatars, which if anything asserts the disparity between Cyric and Mask's senses all the more strongly. If you'd rather disregard such things entirely, more power to you. The only problem I see is trying to assert the presence of a contradiction when it only exists by actively ignoring sources that resolve it.
Zevox 04-13-07, 08:26 PM	From the look of things? Maybe if you missed the first part of my post... you know, the one that explains why it wasn't so much an accomplishment as good fortune for Mask. Or maybe I'm the one missing something here, did you more or less agree with Mirtek's initial statement to begin with? To be honest, I'm not sure where that whole disavowal of coincidence bit came from to begin with. That part of your argument only holds if one presumes Mask could not have known about or influenced the events before Cale and Riven stumbled into them, which near as I can tell is dependent on the presumption that the abilities of the Gods are as layed out in F&P. But if you hate Faith and Pantheons so much, I don't mind going by the parameters set by Faith and Avatars, which if anything asserts the disparity between Cyric and Mask's senses all the more strongly. I don't have F&A, so I can't argue about what it says, but I can say that if it also attempts to put set-in-stone quantifications about what the Gods can do, I'd most likely have the same opinion about it as I do about F&P. Basically, my opinion is thus. (Spoilers for the Erevis Cale Trilogy) Riven, who receives direct revelations from Mask in his dreams, fully believes that Mask orchestrated the whole thing somehow. I'm more inclined to believe someone in his position than conjecture based on the events and quantifications of the abilities of the Gods in sourcebooks (which as I said is something I do not like to begin with), and thus I believe Mask was involved in that. Zevox
Meldread 04-13-07, 08:53 PM	I should probably state upfront that I don't read the Forgotten Realm's novels. I dislike how they are put into cannon, so I try and ignore them for as long as I can although I do believe it is important to point out one thing. Well, two things actually. First, Mask isn't above embellishing the truth to make himself look good. Second, the things that happen in novels are entirely from the point of view of a single (or a small handful) of individuals. As a result the things you read in novels often are highly bias and slanted one way or another. Anything taken from a novel needs to be taken with more than just a grain of salt. Until it officially makes its way into a sourcebook and it clearly states, "alright, folks this is the way it went down" - then it is pure conjecture. (Hell, even then it is still conjecture.)
Vasyek 04-13-07, 09:22 PM	That part of your argument only holds if one presumes Mask could not have known about or influenced the events before Cale and Riven stumbled into them, which near as I can tell is dependent on the presumption that the abilities of the Gods are as layed out in F&P. Actually, that part of my argument is not dependent on what F&P has to say on the matter. Rather, it draws upon the progression of things within the Cale trilogy, which lacks any indication that Mask played any part in orchestrating the theft of the temple beyond Riven's awed whispers and Cale's justifiably skeptical counter. You can say that Mask had a preceding awareness of the events and facilitated them in ways more subtle and decisive than merely having his chosen chase after team Sojourner, but short of drawing upon other events, sources, and so forth that would support Mask's ability to do so, it's a statement with no grounding. I don't have F&A, so I can't argue about what it says, but I can say that if it also attempts to put set-in-stone quantifications about what the Gods can do, I'd most likely have the same opinion about it as I do about F&P. It doesn't give them stats or class levels, by any means, but it does detail the applications and scope of their abilities in accordance with the status as a deity; some of which (Creation and Life & Death, for example) are quite specific. So yeah, my guess is you'd hate at least that brief section of the book. As for the spoiler'd text, it seems Meldread has spared me the effort of pointing out the shortcomings in its reasoning.
Zevox 04-13-07, 10:02 PM	*shrugs* In other words, the entire thing amounts to conjecture and guesswork - no surprise there. I choose to believe Riven for reasons I mentioned above (Aside: as for Cale's skepticism, hes not the one who had spoken directly with Mask before. I suspect his opinion has likely have changed since his meeting with Mask's avatar.), you can choose to believe conjecture drawn from other sources. Either way it amounts to a difference of opinion in the long run (probably about a variety of things, since we seem to disagree about such fundamental details as Mask's own intelligence and competence), with neither of us being able to prove we're right or wrong until something official comes out and says point-blank what happened in that regard (which I don't think will happen). Zevox
Mirtek 04-14-07, 06:38 AM	with neither of us being able to prove we're right or wrong until something official comes out We have something official about their mental (Cyric: Int 40, Wis 24 / Mask: Int 29, Wis 24) and divine abilities (Cyric's portfolio sense extending 16 weeks into the future, Mask's only sensing the present). You just chose to ignore it.
GothicDan 04-14-07, 06:47 AM	While those stats are official, deity states nowadays are about as serious as Mulhorand's claim on Thay. Sure, 'officially' they own Thay, but everyone laughs at the idea.
Adastra 04-14-07, 11:18 AM	Since I'm not super versed on all of this history, I'm going to have to make up my own stuff. I'm not really disappointed about that, I suppose. Just looking for ways to execute it. I understand that most of you probably don't think Mask has a chance to survive a direct confrontation from Shar, or steal from her, or steal from Cyric, etc. But I'll have to come up with something new for my Faerun that gives him leverage, allows him to steal Intrigue and puts Shar in a pickle during her grand scheme and force her to give up Night, most likely. Just need to come up with the specifics of how he pulls it off and how the players are involved.
Zevox 04-14-07, 12:05 PM	We have something official about their mental (Cyric: Int 40, Wis 24 / Mask: Int 29, Wis 24) and divine abilities (Cyric's portfolio sense extending 16 weeks into the future, Mask's only sensing the present). You just chose to ignore it. Because I don't consider the information valid (the very idea that Cyric can be considered to have an intelligence score anywhere near that considering his past actions is laughable to me) - just as you do not consider the information I trust, Riven's revelations, valid, no? Seems to me we're in the same boat there. Zevox
Mirtek 04-14-07, 12:53 PM	(the very idea that Cyric can be considered to have an intelligence score anywhere near that considering his past actions is laughable to me) You want to talk about past actions? In this case, no matter where you place Cyric, Mask would be below him. In PoL and Crucible he was much more stupid than Cyric in all regards. Yes, Cyric made misstakes. Yes, Cyric suffered hard blows, but he did always roll with the blow. Mask dropped himself from intermediate to lesser deity before any other deity even started to interfer with his plans, because his perfectly working plan was that stupid to begin with. Mask dropped two divine levels and lost a portfolio. Cyric lost a portfolio and already grapped annother before the dust settled. Mask tried to convince the circle of greater gods to give the reign over intrigue back to him, only to fail so misserably that the circle decided he would forever be unfit to get it back. Cyric set an intrigue that successfully broke the love between two greater gods while standing trial before the circle. [QUOTE=Zevox;12094289]- just as you do not consider the information I trust, Riven's revelations, valid, no? Seems to me we're in the same boat there.[/QUOTE I trust that Mask would lie to anyone (especially his clergy/chosen) to portray himself in a better lie. We had Mask's ingame word to believe and that's one of the least believeable sources (or do you also believe Cyric when he tells once again that he's really the master of all and any other deity is merel his puppet). F&A and F&P are out of game sources, written by the neutral observer.
Lady_Mhaor 04-14-07, 12:56 PM	I swore this thread was about shar vs mask not mask being superior in every way to cyric
Lady_Mhaor 04-14-07, 01:02 PM	Oh yeah. . while I think Mask will regain Intrigue and humiliate the darksun it will be Bane that kills that upstart godling cyric
Zevox 04-14-07, 01:12 PM	<Arguments about Mask & Cyric & the events of Prince of Lies & Crucible.> Look, we've been over this before, and continuing it here would only rehash old arguments that got nowhere. Obviously, we both consider the other's view of those things flawed. I'd rather not get in a circular, off-topic argument where neither side will ever convince the other, if thats all right with you (actually, even if it isn't). Frankly, I ceased to care what you think about things a long time ago (else I'd be arguing with you every time I stumble across one of your posts deriding law and praising chaos). I trust that Mask would lie to anyone (especially his clergy/chosen) to portray himself in a better lie. We had Mask's ingame word to believe and that's one of the least believeable sources (or do you also believe Cyric when he tells once again that he's really the master of all and any other deity is merel his puppet). So you're presuming Mask was lying without any evidence that he was. If he wasn't involved he could choose to lie to his benefit about it, yes, but then again if he actually did orchestrate the events to steal that tower-temple, he has no reason to lie about it and every reason to tell his Chosen about it, doesn't he? Speculation one way or the other isn't going to get anywhere either - until Paul or some sourcebook says point-blank whether Mask was involved, it can't be concluded whether he was or wasn't. (And as for Cyric, the sheer fact that his idiotic claims to that clash with every other piece of lore about the Gods that exists is far and away enough to say hes wrong in his claims there.) Zevox
Vasyek 04-14-07, 04:41 PM	So you're presuming Mask was lying without any evidence that he was. Doesn't matter if there is or isn't, he hasn't exactly established himself as someone who can be taken at his word. Quite the opposite, to belabour the obvious... questioning anything he has to say is the natural course of action to take every time he opens his mouth. But considering your more relaxed view of his deceptive tendencies and their implications concerning the overall worth of his testimony, at least in this case, I'll enumerate factors from the Cale trilogy alone that render the prospect of the Sojourner's actions being orchestrated by Mask dubious. The first is distance: I don't care what you think of faith & pantheons and what it has to say about the capability of gods, Mask being able to track, influence, and effectively anticipate the motives/actions of one so far removed from the world that empowers him, as the Sojourner was for much of the time spanned over the books, is something that, again, naturally lends itself to skepticism and that's not just my disdain for Mask talking... like I said, I'm not even sure Cyric could do it either. The second is the Sojourner himself: a being who could be described as godlike in terms of arcane/psionic power, knowledge, strength of will, and experience without much exaggeration; if there are any mortals that Mask can't manipulate, and we know there are/have been, the Sojourner has every reason to stand amongst them. The third is Mask, and the few instances in which his presence was evident in the trilogy: the most significant of these would be his relationship with Cale, who ultimately succeeded in browbeating his god into granting him a resurrection spell, for all that he didn't use it; if Mask exerts such questionable control over his own chosen, then how can he be expected to control the actions of one with far greater power and ingenuity at their disposal? If he wasn't involved he could choose to lie to his benefit about it, yes, but then again if he actually did orchestrate the events to steal that tower-temple, he has no reason to lie about it and every reason to tell his Chosen about it, doesn't he? To what end, exactly? To impress them, or to pat himself on the back? No, whatever else I think of Mask, I don't think he's the sort to engage in pointless, self-congratulatory monologues over things he actually did. That sort of thing seems every bit as bad as the 'sly excitement of untutored youth' that he warns against in his dogma, after all.
Zevox 04-15-07, 12:10 AM	Doesn't matter if there is or isn't, he hasn't exactly established himself as someone who can be taken at his word. Quite the opposite, to belabour the obvious... questioning anything he has to say is the natural course of action to take every time he opens his mouth. Of course hes established himself as being unable to be taken at his word - he'd be a poor God of Thieves indeed if that weren't the case. That doesn't mean he never tells the truth though (not even Cyric does that, and he has the Lies portfolio), so to presume hes lying all the time just because he does lie is foolish. To what end, exactly? To impress them, or to pat himself on the back? The former, of course. Cale's faith has always been shaky (if Jak hadn't encouraged him he'd never even have accepted Mask's call to begin with), and Riven at least used to (possibly still does) only worship him for the power he grants. Giving them reason to have true faith in him could only be to his benefit. Which of course would also be his reason to lie about it if he didn't do it. To the rest, interesting points. I'm still not convinced, but I can understand why someone could be. Zevox
Vasyek 04-15-07, 12:50 AM	Of course hes established himself as being unable to be taken at his word - he'd be a poor God of Thieves indeed if that weren't the case. Just so we're clear, I wasn't faulting him for it, only observing a fact. Indeed, I suspect that the observation itself is the closest I'll ever come to praising him. That doesn't mean he never tells the truth though (not even Cyric does that, and he has the Lies portfolio), so to presume hes lying all the time just because he does lie is foolish. Whether he lies constantly isn't the point, whether he can ever be counted on to recount truths in a manner that isn't in some way skewed to suit an agenda of his is more along the lines of what I doubt. Even if everything he said was true in a given situation (this one, for example) it would be far from foolish to immediately ask oneself whether there are truths that he isn't revealing, and whether the manner in which he presented the information was not itself intended to facilitate mistaken conclusions on the listener's part. He's certainly pathological enough in his behavior to not require any specific reason to doubt him, but given that we both agree (my contentions below notwithstanding) that he would have a potential reason to lie in this situation... well, everything he said or chose to indicate, whether it's outright false or comprised of truths that are nonetheless conveyed in such a way as to deceive, indeed becomes even more suspect. The former, of course. Cale's faith has always been shaky (if Jak hadn't encouraged him he'd never even have accepted Mask's call to begin with), and Riven at least used to (possibly still does) only worship him for the power he grants. Giving them reason to have true faith in him could only be to his benefit. If one does believe that he was capable of orchestrating the whole Sojourner mess in spite of the various impediments that it would entail, then I don't really see why he'd have to bother consolidating their faith; it'd almost be inconceivable for the likes of them to manage to surprise him or disrupt his plans. Indeed, with or without that feather in his cap I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he enlisted them fully intending to turn their less than devout natures to his advantage in the first place.
Meldread 04-15-07, 12:52 AM	Mask's Dogma: "All that occurs within shadows is in the purview of Mask. Ownership is nine-tenths of what is right, and ownership is defined as possession. The world belongs to the quick, the smooth-tongued, and the light-fingered. Stealth and wariness are virtues, as are glibness and the skill to say one thing and mean another, twisting a situation to your advantage. Wealth rightfully belongs to those who can acquire it. Strive to end each day with more wealth than you began it, but steal what is most vital, not everything at hand. Honesty is for fools, but apparent honesty is valuable. Make every truth seem plausible, and never lie when you can tell the truth but leave a mistaken impression. Subtlety is everything. Manipulation is better than force, especially when you can make people think they have done something on their own initiative. Never do the obvious except to conceal something else. Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." The bold is mine. Are you sure you -really- understand, or do you only understand what Masks wants you to understand? ;)
Zevox 04-15-07, 02:11 AM	If one does believe that he was capable of orchestrating the whole Sojourner mess in spite of the various impediments that it would entail, then I don't really see why he'd have to bother consolidating their faith; it'd almost be inconceivable for the likes of them to manage to surprise him or disrupt his plans. Indeed, with or without that feather in his cap I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if he enlisted them fully intending to turn their less than devout natures to his advantage in the first place. Its not a matter of them disrupting his plans - indeed, I don't think he has any reason to think Riven would even abandon him, and scant little to think Cale would actually work against him (after all that time he spends dwelling on Sephris' words about fate and how his is tied up with Mask?). Its a matter of the fact that greater faith among his followers means more power for him, and greater faith with his Chosen means they'll be more willing to work to his benefit or sacrifice themselves for him. Would Riven have begun tending that temple if he didn't believe Mask had orchestrated the events, I may ask? Certainly with his previous attitude about his status - that he follows Mask for the power he gives only - I very much so doubt it. With Cale I could see the shaky faith issue being one of his reasons for choosing him - in fact, if memory serves, he hinted at such in Shadowbred - I'll grant you that. With Riven is another matter I'd say, based on how things are going with him. Zevox
Mirtek 04-15-07, 08:35 AM	@Zevox Fine, if you chose to discount as evidence any novels (and sourcebooks) you don't like but use the novels you do like to procure evidence, then there is really no point in continuing this arguement. Long story short: Mask is super clever, because of one of his unproven claims in Midnight's Mask (a novel that does count because it shows Mask in a good light) and off course PoL/Crucible do not count because they're novels (showing Mask rather incompetent). Ah, I forgot, PoL/Crucible count half, because of course everything bad they show about Cyric counts, only the bad things about Mask don't count at all.
Zevox 04-15-07, 11:01 AM	@ Mirtek - You completely misunderstood me. I avoided the Prince of Lies/Crucible argument because we've gone through that already, it got us nowhere, and I have no desire to waste time rehashing the old argument. I didn't ignore anything from the new novel Shadowbred - in fact, I said Vasyek had some good points, if you'll read back a bit, just not good enough to completely convince me. Zevox
Slayergnome 04-15-07, 06:55 PM	Suggestion: Shar can defeat Mask if he was her only target and her only foe. He isn't so her pie is divided up with many a god (Selune most of all). A good suggestion is to have Mask use adventurers via other religious groups (Selune, Cyric, etC) in a bid to not only get out of Shars grasp but to regain his intrigue portfolio from Cyric. Since I don't see Mask being all up for a head on conflict with anyone Shar most of all. So perhaps Mask could be a background tool in your campaign and it's only after a long successful campaign that the adventurers even catch wind that they are doing the bidding of the God. Having ones rivals fight it out while you sit in the shadows sounds like a good idea to me.
Chosen of Bane 04-20-07, 09:06 AM	If Shar comes out of this situation any worse than she started it will likely be because of involvement by Mystra. Like others, I think Cyric will lose intrigue to Mask but not because Mask is more clever or powerful than Cyric, I think Mask will come out better from this because the main character in the novel is a Chosen of Mask. If Kemp wasn't writing the story, it would probably turn out differently, but Cale is popular adn sales are better when the well liked characters win. I actually think Cyric is going to get himself into trouble by betraying Shar in an attempt to steal the whole shadow weave for himself. He has wanted it since he learned about it an has always made a play for what he wants in the past, regardless of the possible consequences.
Mirtek 04-20-07, 01:50 PM	Maybe the new Cormyr adventure can give some hints what Shar&Cyric are up to. It seems to give new information about their alliance. @CoB Your oppinion is indeed one of my fears. Mask winning something merely because Cale is a popular novel character. :( If Cale were a Cyricist instead the boards would be crawling with many new enlightened (aka new Cyric fans). To bad that Kemp did not make Cale and Riven as Cyricists ;)
Chosen of Bane 04-20-07, 02:56 PM	I actually do like Mask and think he's one of the "better" evil gods, but that doesn't mean he has the power to rival a greater deity...or two. I wouldn't mind seeing Mask get intrigue back as one of his portfolios, I just hope it's done in an opportunistic way, rather than actively taking it from a deity far greater than him in power. I'm hoping for a Shar/Cyric conflict for the Shadow Weave where Mask sneaks in at the end and takes back intrigue from a weakened Black Sun. But to just have Cale and Riven fight a war against both Shar and Cyric would be foolish, especially since the Princes of Shade would handle the two of them on their own, let alone including the followers of Cyric.
Meldread 04-20-07, 05:04 PM	I'll reiterate that I haven't read the books and have no intentions of doing so. However, I could certainly see Mask gaining intrigue from Cyric in the following scenario. Mask manipulates things in such a way as to shake things up between Shar and Cyric. It forces Cyric to play his hand for the Shadow Weave. Cyric's main problem is his ego and his belief that he is superior to all other deities. While he is strong, he is still only a recently risen mortal and Shar no doubt suspects betrayal. In fact, I would not doubt for a moment that Shar would have been plotting Cyric's downfall the moment they aligned. She is no doubt using Cyric to her own ends, and should fully anticipate betrayal. When Cyric makes his play, Shar promptly slaps him down but in the process Mask jumps in and grabs the portfolio of intrigue. Things could get complicated if Mystra somehow involves herself, but really Shar should have planned for that as well. In the end, I could see Cyric falling from a Greater Power to perhaps an intermediate or lesser power. He could lose the portfolio of intrigue to Mask and the portfolio of illusions to Shar (though it is possible Mask could grab illusions as well). More or less becoming the deity of Murder, Strife, Lies and Deception which I think is more fitting for Cyric. On another note, one of my main concerns/problems with Mask's supposed Chosen is that I read that he was chaotic neutral and not evil. That really irked me in large part because I dislike the concept of Chosen, and in part because Mask is certainly an evil deity, and the fact that the vast, vast majority of every known Chosen is of a non-evil alignment. From what little I know of this "Cale" it seems to be some type of anti-hero, which really - to me - makes me kinda sick. He should have been a villain. Mask is an evil deity, and I would hate for him to slowly become neutral. There are not enough competent evil deities as it is... and I would certainly prefer the Realms to become more gritty and dark. Evil in the Forgotten Realms seems to have been steered toward a cartoon version of evil where most (but thankfully not all) evil characters and deities have been turned into Dr. Evil from Austin Powers. Maybe it's just me, though, I might have just "grown up" and thirst for a more adult flavored setting dealing with harsher villains. Maybe the Chosen of Loviatar will take a few hints from the Saw Movies. :P
Chosen of Bane 04-20-07, 05:17 PM	If you read the novels I think you may feel differently about it. Cale is not an evil man, but he is far from good as well. And, although he is a follower of Mask, he is by no means changing Masks perspective. Mask is assuredly still evil, and if one were to change the other, I'm betting it would not be Cale changing Mask. The Mask/Cale relationship is not the love-fest one might expect from a god and his chosen, instead it is a relationship of Mask manipulating Cale and Cale being bitter, angry, and resentful about it. I do have a some concern about Cale/Mask's role in the Shar/Cyric alliance, but Mask ceasing to be evil is not one of them. I hope intrigue is the only portfolio that changes hands in this, I would hate to see a big evil deity reformation. I don't think their needs to be portfolio theft just because one deity smacks down another. So if Shar were to smack down Cyric, which it would probably be a close one as they are both greater deities, I don't see her stealing any of Cyric's portfolios. Shar is known to covet Shadows, Mask is known to covet intrigue. To me, it wouldn't make much sense for any change in portfolio except for the two that have previously been foreshadowed.
Meldread 04-20-07, 05:38 PM	True, my perception might change if I were to read the novels. I am glad it isn't some campy love-fest... but it's a bit odd that someone who is angry, bitter and resentful isn't falling under the sway of Shar. It would be interesting, when all is said and done... Mask gains intrigue from Cyric but loses shadows to Shar, and his loss is a direct result of Shar manipulating his own Chosen. That would make me smile.
Chosen of Bane 04-20-07, 08:10 PM	I know I'm getting this a little off-topic and maybe this should be another thread entirely but... Since we're on the topic of Shar, Cyric, and Mask and portfolios; I'd like to see one of the 3 claim the portfolio of Assassins. It has been unclaimed since the death of Bhaal and I think the 3 deities that we've been talking about would be the most appropriate to claim it. I know that that is unlikely, but I'd like to see it.
Vasyek 04-20-07, 09:17 PM	angry, bitter and resentful isn't falling under the sway of Shar. The fact that she exemplifies such concepts doesn't grant her a monopoly over them by any means, though. If that were the case I wonder how many followers the other evil gods could scrounge together. I can certainly agree it would be a nice twist if Shar manipulated the Shadowlord's chosen via those traits however. Sparing it from becoming a complete 'whee! Mask's on the fast-track!' scenario would trim away at some of the larger misgivings I have about the trilogies thus far.
Burningspear 04-20-07, 09:48 PM	I know I'm getting this a little off-topic and maybe this should be another thread entirely but... Since we're on the topic of Shar, Cyric, and Mask and portfolios; I'd like to see one of the 3 claim the portfolio of Assassins. It has been unclaimed since the death of Bhaal and I think the 3 deities that we've been talking about would be the most appropriate to claim it. I know that that is unlikely, but I'd like to see it. I personally regard the assassins as the sole portfolio of Bhaal, and not for some other god to access, either until he is reinstated or a new god of solely Assassins as his core portfolio comes along will i see such a change happening (hopefully). as far as i remember, no one has claimed the Dusk portfolio either, i could see that being taken by a nature god(dess) or the like, no problem, as it was not his core reason for being a god in the first place :tie: and unfortunately i don't have my books still (2nd ed.) they r abroad, so i cannot yet comment on any other portfolio's he had, neither for that matter on the ones Amauntor had (Bureaucracy etc.) witch no one has claimed either yet. sorry for the ranting, I do like the fact that they are making the Greater gods (evil) being viewed as more active/ turmoiling between each other as well, besides trying only to kill goodie-too-shoos only...
Mirtek 04-21-07, 07:16 AM	Well, like said in the other thread, Bhaal's real portfolio was death, not murder, not assassins, just natural and violent death