Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JPDeed 04-06-07, 10:03 AM	Since it is Mystra's (or her predecessors) choice to disallow 10+ level spells allowed for the weave, is it feasible that Shar would allow them for the shadow-weave just to be antagonistic?
BrennonGoldeye 04-06-07, 10:40 AM	Yes, yes it is. Will She use Her own Diefic essence to fuel such spells? Prolly not. It's not just a matter of allowing the spells, it's a matter of fueling the spells. As the Weave Mystra actually causes the spells to function. Would Shar be willing to give such personal knowledge to a mortal? Or even other Gods? I think that might be something that Mystra is actually hoping for. Shar knows that. As much as I like the good side, I do believe that Shar will be hanging around when it all ends because She(not the Shades or SW users) is just to hard to bait. At least unless you happen to be Her Sister.:cool: P.S.- Very nice parentheels.
SATA 04-06-07, 12:48 PM	Since it is Mystra's (or her predecessors) choice to disallow 10+ level spells allowed for the weave, is it feasible that Shar would allow them for the shadow-weave just to be antagonistic? Yes (not exactly for that reason but for many others), but she can't. The Weave and Shadow Weave are just conducts, so the only thing that Shar could do is allow her Shadow Weave the use of such spells but since Mystra is the goddess of Magic, Spells and The Weave, she have all the power and the final say about spells.
ShadezofDis 04-06-07, 02:06 PM	Yes (not exactly for that reason but for many others), but she can't. The Weave and Shadow Weave are just conducts, so the only thing that Shar could do is allow her Shadow Weave the use of such spells but since Mystra is the goddess of Magic, Spells and The Weave, she have all the power and the final say about spells. Mystra, AFAIK, has no control over the Shadow Weave, what so ever. Nor, AFAIK, does she have control over "raw magic" (the pool of force the Weave or Shadow Weave draws from) Like Bren said, the use of true 10th+ magic is a drain on the Weave that is used to cast the true 10th+ magic. I don't see Shar weakening herself to allow a Shadow Weave user to cast true 10th+ magic. And it is not known if the Shadow Weave could even support true 10th+ magic, nor is it know if the current Weave can support true 10th+ magic. So the answer to the OP's question is; I don't know (and currently we don't know) and I doubt Shar would allow the ability anyhow, unless there was a VERY good reason. :)
Ramenth 04-06-07, 04:24 PM	I have a feeling that even if Shar did allow people to cast 10th level spells and higher, she'd never tell anyone about it.
SATA 04-06-07, 05:35 PM	Mystra, AFAIK, has no control over the Shadow Weave, what so ever. Nor, AFAIK, does she have control over "raw magic" (the pool of force the Weave or Shadow Weave draws from) Like Bren said, the use of true 10th+ magic is a drain on the Weave that is used to cast the true 10th+ magic. I don't see Shar weakening herself to allow a Shadow Weave user to cast true 10th+ magic. And it is not known if the Shadow Weave could even support true 10th+ magic, nor is it know if the current Weave can support true 10th+ magic. So the answer to the OP's question is; I don't know (and currently we don't know) and I doubt Shar would allow the ability anyhow, unless there was a VERY good reason. :) No, Mystra don't have any control over the Shadow Weave, that is correct and everyone know it. Keywords: 10+ level magic/spells People tend to forget who is the goddess of Magic and Spells. As I said before, Shar can allow her Shadow Weave to be able to channel those spells beyond 9 level, there is no problem. The issue is that Mystra don't allow those spells anymore and she is the goddess of Spells and Magic, so anyone who try to create or cast 10+ level spells, they simple don't work, they are inert, doesn't matter the conduct, meaning Weave or Shadow Weave. Finally, Shar would if she knew that those spells would work, and the reason why is pretty obvious, in this community there are many threads about people asking the same thing, 10+ level spells through the Shadow Weave, so in Faerun would be the same, almost every evil spellcaster will want the power to cast those spells, the same with many neutral aligned spellcaster, and the good ones would be seduces too and maybe a few could fall.
ShadezofDis 04-06-07, 06:44 PM	Keywords: 10+ level magic/spells People tend to forget who is the goddess of Magic and Spells. As I said before, Shar can allow her Shadow Weave to be able to channel those spells beyond 9 level, there is no problem. The issue is that Mystra don't allow those spells anymore and she is the goddess of Spells and Magic, so anyone who try to create or cast 10+ level spells, they simple don't work, they are inert, doesn't matter the conduct, meaning Weave or Shadow Weave. First, if Mystra controlled "raw magic" she could then deny the ENTIRE Shadow Weave it's power. Second, we do not know the exact nature of Mystra's ban on true 10th+ spells, all we know is that you can't cast them through the Weave. We do not know if this is because; Mystra recreated the Weave to not support true 10th+ magic. or Mystra has said "no", the Weave can still support true 10th+ magic but Mystra stops it from doing so. Finally, Shar would if she knew that those spells would work, and the reason why is pretty obvious, in this community there are many threads about people asking the same thing, 10+ level spells through the Shadow Weave, so in Faerun would be the same, almost every evil spellcaster will want the power to cast those spells, the same with many neutral aligned spellcaster, and the good ones would be seduces too and maybe a few could fall. True 10th+ level magic is a drain (ie. harmful) to the Weave that it is drawn through. . . well. . . actually we do not specifically know that true 10th+ level magic would cause a drain on the Shadow Weave, it could be that the Shadow Weave is better able to support true 10th+ level magic (or that the schools boosted by the Shadow Weave could support free and clear and the others would cause a drain). Anyhow, AFAWK, the Shadow Weave would be drained by true 10th+ magic, and Shar wouldn't like that(She doesn't play well with others).
Lord Karsus 04-06-07, 07:01 PM	-Shar- even is she could- would not grant SW users 10+ Level magic. She might lie about it, though. You know why she wouldn't do it? She saw what happened to Mystra. You think she's going to let that happen to her? Shar is far too cunning...
SATA 04-07-07, 01:36 AM	My last post in this thread, it can't be any clearer than that, is too obvious. And Shar would, at least to a very selected worshipers, and the rest, lie, trick or anything else but by any means, lure spellcasters to her, with the condition of worshiping her, and with that divine power gained at least temporarily she could strike and accomplish a certain goal and then wait another decade or century or more to move one of her pieces in her master plan to drive existence to oblivion. Also she can Deny Shadow Weave... Keywords: 10+ level magic/spells People tend to forget who is the goddess of Magic and Spells. As I said before, Shar can allow her Shadow Weave to be able to channel those spells beyond 9 level, there is no problem. The issue is that Mystra don't allow those spells anymore and she is the goddess of Spells and Magic, so anyone who try to create or cast 10+ level spells, they simple don't work, they are inert, doesn't matter the conduct, meaning Weave or Shadow Weave. Finally, Shar would if she knew that those spells would work, and the reason why is pretty obvious, in this community there are many threads about people asking the same thing, 10+ level spells through the Shadow Weave, so in Faerun would be the same, almost every evil spellcaster will want the power to cast those spells, the same with many neutral aligned spellcaster, and the good ones would be seduces too and maybe a few could fall.
ShadezofDis 04-07-07, 02:11 AM	My last post in this thread, it can't be any clearer than that, is too obvious. And Shar would, at least to a very selected worshipers, and the rest, lie, trick or anything else but by any means, lure spellcasters to her, with the condition of worshiping her, and with that divine power gained at least temporarily she could strike and accomplish a certain goal and then wait another decade or century or more to move one of her pieces in her master plan to drive existence to oblivion. Also she can Deny Shadow Weave... We'll chalk this up to a "difference of opinion".
Stigger 04-07-07, 07:27 AM	Too much of the arguement relies on unknown variables really. Mystra controls the portfolio of spells, true, but what we don't know is if that extends to the spells that utilize the SW or just the Weave. And trying to guess what Shar would and wouldn't do is always going to boil down to personal opinion until the devs give us some indication one way or another. Presuming that the SW broke off after the Karsus incident, I don't see it as likely that it would be able to support 10+ level spells, presuming that the Weave itself was harmed during that event. If it broke off before, it very well could support them. But the only real answer to the question is, as far as is known with concrete evidence, no one has any definite proof that it can or it can't, at least until WotC says otherwise. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that WotC won't allow the SW to allow 10+ level magic, simply for the sake of game balance, but that we might see something on epic SW magic in some future supplement if it is intended to be around for a substantial amount of time.
ShadezofDis 04-07-07, 10:23 AM	If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that WotC won't allow the SW to allow 10+ level magic, simply for the sake of game balance, but that we might see something on epic SW magic in some future supplement if it is intended to be around for a substantial amount of time. Yep, and that would catonically fit with what we know of Shar, the Weave, the nature of true 10th+ magic. Further, just because a god has a portfolio does not mean the god has control over everything under that portfolio. (ie. Silvanus doesn't have control over all of wilderness)
Lord Karsus 04-07-07, 06:09 PM	Presuming that the SW broke off after the Karsus incident... -It didn't. The Shadow Weave and the Weave coexisted before Mystryl ended herself. Otherwise, according to Realmslore, Lord Shadow/Telamont* would have never been able to use a Shadow Mythallar. But, this leads to even more inconsistencies, because a Shadow Mythallar should have not been affected by Mystryl ending herself...:crazy: *Note that Lord Shadow and Telamont Tanthul are not the same person, but I'll say they are right now for the sake of simiplicity in this complicated matter, that really should be simple, but has been made complicated through faulty retcons, a long leash on poetic license, and 3e.
Stigger 04-07-07, 06:23 PM	Unless they made that particular Shadow Mythallar after they reached the plane of shadow... or maybe it got warped by the shadow energy around it and was the actual catalyst for the shadow weave coming into a more coherent form.
Lord Karsus 04-07-07, 06:34 PM	Unless they made that particular Shadow Mythallar after they reached the plane of shadow... or maybe it got warped by the shadow energy around it and was the actual catalyst for the shadow weave coming into a more coherent form. -Even so, as per Realms of Shadow, Lord Shadow/Telamont* was already using Shadow Weave Magic. "An archwizard by the name of Shadow hads been experimenting with a new type of magic", explained the first voice. "He calls his new source of power the Shadow Weave", interjected the second. -I thought there was also a story about Shade during the Fall itself, but I guess not.
Stigger 04-07-07, 06:36 PM	Never read Realms of Shadow to be honest, I've never gotten all that interested in short stories of any stripe, presuming its an anthology like the other Realms of... books
Lord Karsus 04-07-07, 06:39 PM	Never read Realms of Shadow to be honest, I've never gotten all that interested in short stories of any stripe, presuming its an anthology like the other Realms of... books -Some of them are good. I like the Realms of X Anthology books because they offer a glimps to see more of the setting. Sure, it's cool when we get to see Drizzt, or Arilyn Moonblade, or Elminster in a short story, but it is even better when we get to see 3rd, 4th and 5th rate characters (like Dûd Onahorz, for instance ;)), who are interesting, but would never get their own novel, even a stand alone.
Stigger 04-07-07, 06:41 PM	Should get them for my wife then, she loves short stories. Never enough of them to satisfy me though, since I always want more of them by the time their finished.
Lord Karsus 04-07-07, 06:46 PM	Never enough of them to satisfy me though, since I always want more of them by the time their finished. -There is only one case I can think of, where a character/group from a short story actually got his/her/their own novel. I believe that Fox-at-Twilight, who first appeared in a novel in Realms of the Elves, and was recently revealed to be a Chosen of Erevan Ilesere, is also going to get her own novel sometime in the future, along with her recent companion, whatever his name was, who was looking for the Shattered Swords of Coronal Ynoleth.
book_keeper 04-08-07, 12:09 PM	While the shadow weave is a great tactic in reality it's only as strong as Mystra lets it be. I understand that Shar controls the shadow weave but it is the negitive space of the real weave. Sense no real weave reaches 10th level anylonger nor can the shadow weave. The shadow needs the weave to be able to still go there to beable to make a shadow of it. I think 10th level spells are really a poor phrase to use anymore. There are still epic spells, they are by far extremely more powerful then a so called 10th level spell. 10th-level is really for previouse versions of D&D.
Stigger 04-08-07, 12:44 PM	Sure, but those 10th level spells formerly existed in the Realms, so if you're going to reference their existence, it kinda helps to call them by their rightful name. ;) Got a feeling that the weave being only as strong as Mystra allows is gonna generate some strong disagreement, but I'd personally tend to agree with you there, going by its description in Magic of Faerun, if I recall correctly where it gave that definition. Tighten up the Weave, close up those spaces between, and the Shadow Weave should lose some power... personally, I like that idea as I can't stand the idea of the Shadow Weave.
Mr_Miscellany 04-08-07, 02:18 PM	Since it is Mystra's (or her predecessors) choice to disallow 10+ level spells allowed for the weave, is it feasible that Shar would allow them for the shadow-weave just to be antagonistic? It's my opinion that Mystra's cap on 10+ level spells indirectly prohibits the casting of Shadow Weave-based 10+ level spells. After all, the SW is a dark echo of the Weave. Their can't be an echo if there's no sound. However, we know that Weave-based Epic Magic is possible in the Realms, ergo it should be possilbe for for Shadow Weave based Epic Spells to be cast as well.
Meldread 04-08-07, 03:06 PM	I know some people hate the Shadow Weave, but personally - I love it. It's a little shaky lore wise, but there are far worse things in the Realms. However, I think something important needs to be pointed out. Shar does not have the same type of relationship to the Shadow Weave, as Mystra does to the Weave. That is to say, Shar is not physically tied to the Shadow Weave, or another way of looking at it, Shar is not the Shadow Weave personified. She holds the same type of control over the Shadow Weave as Mystra does the Weave, without the nagging problems involved. Therefore, if harm happens to the Shadow Weave, Shar would not be adversely affected. This leads to some interesting conjecture. Shar could potentially allow 10th level spells to work similar to how the power of the Ur-Priest works. Rather than draw exclusively upon the Shadow Weave, causing it to be strained, she could create a PrC that allowed someone properly trained to cast their spells through the Shadow Weave, but draw most of their power from a deity. Such as Mystra (and therefore the Weave). This would give Shar the following benefits: 1. Allowing Wizards access to True 10th Level Spells. 2. Not having to worry about damage to the Shadow Weave. 3. Keeping the individuals with the power in a small elite group, which would obviously be her most trusted and loyal followers, which would in turn attract more loyal arcane followers seeking the power of her dark knowledge. 4. If she could direct the power to drain from a specific source (Mystra for example) it would have the added bonus of not only straining the Weave (because Mystra and the Weave are physically the same), and therefore give more incentive to switch to the Shadow Weave, it would also be weakening one of her main rivals.
Stigger 04-08-07, 06:03 PM	Interesting idea on the Ur-Priest variant, but I'm not sure how it would work if drawing on the SW disallows access to the Weave... coming up with an ability to directly draw upon Mystra's essence without going through the Weave, since you can't call upon it in the first place, would essentially be vampiring a good whos essence is inherently incompatible with your own, magically speaking. If you're calling upon Mystra's essence, you're basically calling upon the Weave, and that's a no-no with SW users. Stealing a spell, that exists in the first place, from the ether, before it reaches its recipient is one thing, stealing essence from a deity to power something that deity doesn't allow in the first place is quite another. The Ur Priest is calling on something that already exists and stealing it... this other idea is more like trying to take exalted feats with a chaotic evil alignment, they're just mutually exclusive of each other, at least the way I look at it.
Lord Karsus 04-08-07, 06:37 PM	I think 10th level spells are really a poor phrase to use anymore. There are still epic spells, they are by far extremely more powerful then a so called 10th level spell. 10th-level is really for previouse versions of D&D. -Tenth Level+ spells is the proper term for it. Epic spells are not Tenth Level+ spells, and Epic spells are not Tenth Level+. -Epic Spells are not stronger than Tenth Level+ Spells. They are equal to or less than Tenth Level+ Spells, due to all of the penalties to the caster.
miscellany 04-08-07, 07:20 PM	--Epic Spells are not stronger than Tenth Level+ Spells. They are equal to or less than Tenth Level+ Spells, due to all of the penalties to the caster. The penalties to a caster can be offset by several factors so therefor it is possible to create Epic Spells that can equal or exceed the effect of 10th Level+ spells. :cool:
ShadezofDis 04-08-07, 07:27 PM	The big thing about the Shadow Weave is that we don't know. We don't know the nature of the ban on true 10th+ level magic. We don't know the nature of the Shadow Weave (is it tied to the Weave? Was it created and now has it's own, independent existence {ie. a change to the Weave does not effect the Shadow Weave}? Or was it created as a persistant copy of the Weave?) We don't know the exact nature of Shar's relationship to the Shadow Weave (Does it work like Mysta's relationship to the Weave? If it doesn't work in that way then what does that mean?) We don't truely know that the Shadow Weave covers Abeir-Toril (I know. It probably does but we don't know if you can use it in Maztica, in Zakhara, in Kara-Tur? And no, it's not impossible to believe that it might not cover these area's. It would function like a magic dead zone, except instead of a hole in the SW it would just not be there. I suspect that in the early days of the SW it was much like that and that at this point in time it covers the entirety of the world but we do not specifically know that AFAIK.) And that's just the smallest bit of what we don't know about the Shadow Weave. :D
Meldread 04-08-07, 10:40 PM	I would imagine what I suggested above working something along the lines like this: The most talented and worthy of Shar's faithful are selected to learn the deepest secrets of the Shadow Weave. Such individuals would clearly be connected to her church, and would need to somehow have her blessing. This blessing would come in the form of a secret implanted in her servants mind, secret even to them, and something that she could remove at will should she deem it necessary. This secret allows them to access true 10th-level magic and beyond, and allows them to draw much of their power from very specific sources such as Mystra and Selune, slowly draining them of their divine energy similar to the Ur-Priest. Their spells would still be challenged through the Weave, but all of their magic with the PrC would be divine magic. This means that should Shar become displeased with the character she could, at will, remove the secret from their mind making all of the powers they gained as a Shadow Theurge be for nothing. This is easier than using her Deny Shadow Weave ability, as that requires her to focus on the individual. Effectively, this turns the character into an ex-Cleric, and the character would lose access to all of their spells even those that would generally be considered arcane spells. The only way to recover is to make atonement to Shar. However, it wouldn't be enough just to have Shar's blessing, the character would also have to seek out another Shadow Theurge to be trained and taught. This would be fraught with danger as much of the instruction would be in the form of Dark Speech. The PrC as a whole would have all the benefits and disadvantages of the Mystic Theurge (although slightly harder to qualify). It would allow the ability to use Dark Speech as the Turn Undead ability without the disadvantages and cast true 10th-level Magic. However, it would require a complete devotion to Shar, above and beyond what would be normal for some of her most high ranking clergy with the potential to lose all the characters power. Here is how I imagine it would all come together. Shadow Theurge Long ago, during the days of Netheril mighty Archmages used magic with abandon. They created a mighty civilization that today is still unrivaled, and as a result of the folly of the Archmage Karsus Netheril fell - and with it magic under the Weave became heavily restricted. A few, seeking a new path, turned to the dark goddess Shar and the secrets of the Shadow Weave were revealed to them. They studied this dark construct, and mastered its power. Bound to Shar in every possible way, the knowledge she has gifted them is a secret that she has planted into their minds. Should they turn from her, or their loyalty waver, with but a thought she could strip them of all of their power. Few know of their existence, and those that talk of them often do not live long. Their power is great, matched only by the evilness and corrupting nature of their goddess. The Shadow Thurge has the ability to cast both arcane and divine spells through the Shadow Weave, but their true power is their ability to access 10th-level spells, and slowly drain the divine energy from the deific enemies of their evil goddess. Hit Die: d4 Requirements To qualify to become a Shadow Thurge, a character must fulfill all of the following criteria. Alignment: Any Evil. Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 8 Ranks, Knowledge (religion) 8 ranks, Spellcraft 8 ranks. Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level divine spells and 2nd-level arcane spells. Feats: Shadow Weave Magic, Dark Speech. Special: The character must serve Shar as a patron deity. Special: The character must be trained by another Shadow Thurge. Class Skills The shadow theurge's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (religion) (Int), Profession (Wis), Sense Motive (Wis), and Spellcraft (Int). See Chapter 4 of the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions. Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. Class Features All of the following are features of the shadow theurge prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Shadow theurgist gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor. Spells per Day: When a new shadow theurge level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class and any one divine spellcasting class she belonged to previously. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character that class would have gained (bonus metamagic or item creation feats, bard or assassin abilities, and so on). This essentially means that she adds the level of shadow theurge to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and divine spellcasting class the character has, then determines spells per day and caster level accordingly. For example, a 3rd-level cleric/3rd-level wizard who takes a level in shadow theurge has the same access to spells as a 4th-level cleric and a 4th-level wizard. But her wizard familiar won't gain any new abilities. The exception to this rule is the cleric's turn undead ability, which begins functioning as dark speech, as outlined in Chapter 2 of the Book of Vile Darkness. The Turn Undead ability continues to increase as if the character were still gaining levels of the cleric class, and the character may avoid suffering damage to their ability scores through a successful will save of a DC of 20, and may use the Dark Unity effect on non-sentient Undead regardless of their HD. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one divine spellcasting class before she became a shadow theurge, she must decide to which class she adds each level of mystic theurge for the purpose of determining spells per day. (This character uses the same advancement table as the Mystic Theurge.) Book of Vile Darkness, Chapter 2 page 32: Dark Speech (Modified for the Shadow Thurge Prestige Class.) There exists a language so dire, so inherently full of spite, malice, corruption, and hatred that it is simply called the Dark Speech. This is the secret language of evil gods, so foul and so potent that even demons and devils refrain from its use, lest it consume them. Not surprisingly, very few mortals know even a few words of Dark Speech. But those who do are wise to never underestimate the power of words. The safest way to use the Dark Speech is through spells such as dread word (see Chapter 6). Most characters must take the Dark Speech feat to begin to learn the Dark Speech language. The Dark Speech is extremely difficult to master. A special feat is required to speak even a single word of it correctly, for mortal tongues were not designed to utter these words of pure evil. Some evil outsiders know smatterings (or more) of the Dark Speech and need no feat to master it. To actually communicate by means of the Dark Speech - that is, for a knowledgeable speaker to convey some information to a knowledgeable listener - the speaker must take great care, or both listener and speaker will be harmed. There are no words in the Dark Speech for good concepts such as kindness, mercy, and purity. However, evil characters can speak of misery, anguish, hate, and betrayal with an accuracy impossible in any other tongue. The Dark Speech has no written form. It cannot be transliterated into another language's written form without losing all of its meaning and power. Besides communicating in the language of evil itself, there are four ways that a speaker can use the Dark Speech. Dread: These words are spoken to cause fear, loathing, and dread in all who hear them. When dread words of the Dark Speech are uttered, all within 30 feet of the Speaker must make a Will saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 speaker's level + speaker's Cha modifier). Listeners who know the Dark Speech by possessing the Dark Speech feat gain a +4 circumstance bonus on this saving throw. If a listener fails its saving throw, it suffers the following effects, depending on its Hit Dice or level and alignment: Levels 1-4 Nonevil: Characters are shaken by the intoned Dark Speech, and they flee from the source of their fear as quickly as they can, although they can choose the path of their flight. Other than that stipulation, once out of sight and hearing of the source of their fear, characters can act as they want. Characters unable to flee can fight (although they are still shaken for 1d10 rounds). Levels 5-10, Nonevil: Characters are shaken, taking a -2 moral penalty on attack, saves, and checks for 1d10 rounds. Levels 11+, Nonevil: Characters are filled with loathing for the speaker and must attack him on their next action. Levels 1-4 Evil: Characters cower and are frozen in fear. They lose their Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) and can take no actions for 1d10 rounds. Foes gain a +2 bonus to hit cowering characters. Levels 5-10, Evil: Characters are mastered by the Dark Speech, acting as if charmed (as described in the charm person spell) for 1d10 minutes. Levels 11+, Evil: Characters are impressed, reacting to the speaker with more respect and wariness. This adds a +2 competence bonus on subsequent attempts to change their attitude (see NPC Attitudes in Chapter 5 of the Dungeon Master's Guide). Power: The words of the Dark Speech help energize evil magic items and spells. If used in conjunction with an evil spell that has a verbal component, the Dark Speech increases the spell's effective caster level by +1. If used when creating an evil magic item, the Dark Speech increases the item's caster level by +1 without increasing the cost. Both caster level increases are considered prone bonuses. It is likely that the Dark Speech is a requirement for many evil artifacts. Corruption: The words of Dark Speech, whispered softly, can weaken physical objects. As a full round action, the speaker can whisper vile words of corruption and destruction at an inanimate object such as a door or wall, reducing its hardness by half. It cannot be used more than once on a single object. Dark Unity: The words of the Dark Speech create a hivemind. Up to one hundred vermin or animals (none of which can have more than 1 HD) form an evil hivemind, as described in the Hivemind section below. This also effects non-sentient undead, regardless of HD. The united consciousness of the creatures will take one command from the Dark Speech speaker, as if from a suggestion spell. Book of Vile Darkness, Chapter 2 page 34: Hivemind As a side effect of some evil spiritual presence or dark blessing, vermin and certain animals can take on a sort of evil consciousness shared among a large group, though each individual member retains little or no intellect. When a hivemind forms, each individual creature becomes just a tiny party of a much larger, much greater intelligence. But even the most craven sages do not understand how or why hivemind develop. If at least 50 vermin or animals of the same species are arranged so that no individual is more than 10 feet from another individual, the hivemind may come into effect. All the creatures operate with an Intelligence of 5, even if they previously had no intelligence score (as with vermin). The creatures' Intelligence score increases by +1 for every additional 20 individuals (beyond the first 50) in the hivemind, up to an Intelligence of 0 for a hivemind of 150 creatures. Beyond the 150-creature threshold, Intelligence increases by +1 for every 50 additional individuals. Thus, a swarm of 500 rats would have a hivemind Intelligence of 17. For every point of Intelligence bonus possessed by the Hivemind, award each individual creature one feat and 1 skill point per Hit Die. Intelligence-based skill bonuses increase accordingly. So 500 rats in the swarm (Int 17, +3 bonus) would each have 3 extra skill points and three feats. In this case, they gain a +3 bonus on hide checks and the feats Alertness, Skill Focus (Move Silently), and Weapon Focus (bite). The increase to Intelligence gained for every creature in the hivemind over 50 also applies to Charisma. So, a hivemind of 500 rats (normal Charisma score 2) has a Charisma score of 14. If the hivemind attains a Charisma score of 18 or higher, it gains the ability to cast spells as a sorcerer. For every point of Charisma over 17, the hivemind has one level of sorcerer. A hivemind of 1,000 rats has a Charisma of 22, so it would cast spells as a 5th-level sorcerer, for example. The hivemind has six cantrips, eight 1st-level spells, and six 2nd-level spells each day. Any single creature can cast one of the hivemind's spells, but those spell slots are then lost to other creatures in the hivemind. Creatures in a hivemind have no need for somatic or material components, and their squeaks, screeches, or clicks serve as verbal components. When creatures in a hivemind attack, they all gain a +1 insight bonus on their attack rolls and a +1 insight bonus to their Armor Class. Each creature knows the actions of every other member of the hivemind. The entire hivemind is aware of what every individual is experiencing. When running a hivemind encounter, play the hivemind as a single creature as much as possible. It can be tedious to fight numerous creatures, so assume that weapon blows affect the hivemind as a whole. For example, if a fighter hits a swarm of hivemind rats for 9 points of damage, and each rat has 1 hp, assume that he killed nine rats. If he was fighting a swarm of Small Vipers with 4 hp each, he killed two of them. A hivemind's Challenge Rating is greater than the Challenging Rating of one of the individual creatures. If the CR of an individual creature is less than 1/2, the CR of the hivemind is 1/2. The creature has a CR of 1/2, the hivemind's CR is 1. If the creature has a CR of 1 or higher, the hivemind's CR is 1 greater than that of the creature.
Lord Karsus 04-08-07, 10:46 PM	The penalties to a caster can be offset by several factors so therefor it is possible to create Epic Spells that can equal or exceed the effect of 10th Level+ spells. :cool: -But, keep in mind all of the factors that go into researching all of those offsetting factors. Time, money, EXP, gold, and so on. Sure, it might make the actual casting less likely to cause you "harm", but you are still paying for it in other ways. True Tenth Level Magic, you just said what you needed to say, made the gestures you needed to make, and all was good. Book of Vile Darkness, Chapter 2 page 32: -Ah, that's what Riven, Chosen of Mask can do. Now I know where it comes from...
Dravial 04-08-07, 11:31 PM	In all the books I have read and the RPG books that have shadow weave info in them. It leads me to treat the shadow weave as being half of true magic and the weave as being the other half. To cast 10th level, not elven highmagic etc, spell a person would need True Magic. When Karsus stole the mantle of power from Mystrl the weave of true magic was damaged and she infused herself into the weave to save it. Saving the portion we are calling the weave now. While Shar stole away the half we call the shadow weave. Until the two are merged the (ban) aparently imposed as a choice, to mortals, was actually a result of the spliting of true magic. Until the death of dieties and such began to damage the new weave creating wild magic and dead magic zones. So in the end I would say that yes Shar would let someone cast 10th level spells. BUT no she cant because the Shadow Weave is just a reflection/half of the current weave and doesnt have the capability of supporting 10th level spells. Epic spells are not 10th level spells they are extensive use of large sums of magic to create spell effects that are like 10th lvl spells but dont have the broad scope of what was being done in Nethril. You wont see a player becomeing a God by wielding a spell<<<<<<Karsus
Meldread 04-08-07, 11:46 PM	I think everyone is currently over estimating the power of true 10th-level magic. After the fall of Netheril most if not all true 10th-level spells have been lost. Those that had some remnant left were converted into epic spells. Casting True 10th-level spells would still require time for research and development. While it is true that someone could potentially develop another Karsus Avatar spell, the knowledge of what happened to him should pose as a large enough deterrent. Furthermore, Shar would know long before such a spell is developed and promptly put a stop to it unless she believed it could be used for her benefit. Finally, although its true we don't know the exact circumstances of the creation of the Shadow Weave, according to various sourcebooks it clearly states that Shar created it. It doesn't say she discovered it, or stole it, only that she created it. It does not give a time or date that the Shadow Weave came into existence. Being the goddess of secrets, it could have been in existence all along, even during the height of Netheril. That might count as a reconning of the lore, but it is possible.
Dravial 04-08-07, 11:55 PM	Just going on a blend of what is found in rules books presented and the Return of the Archmage information presented in those books.
Lord Karsus 04-09-07, 12:16 AM	While it is true that someone could potentially develop another Karsus Avatar spell, the knowledge of what happened to him should pose as a large enough deterrent. -Mystra stripped all knowledge of my spell from the face of Toril shortly after she became the deity of magic. Should anyone attempt to do it again, her agents would "kindly" prompt them not to. Being the goddess of secrets, it could have been in existence all along, even during the height of Netheril. That might count as a reconning of the lore, but it is possible. -The Shadow Weave did indeed exist during the height of Netheril, as per multiple sources, including a story in Realms of Shadow that blatently says that Lord Shadow utilizes the power of the Shadow Weave.
Karsus the Mad 04-12-07, 06:22 AM	I think 10th level spells are really a poor phrase to use anymore. There are still epic spells, they are by far extremely more powerful then a so called 10th level spell. 10th-level is really for previouse versions of D&D. True 10th+ magic, by it's very nature, is leveled and finite. There's a preset "max" as to what a specific level of magic can do, just like there is between 0-9th level magic. However, it's efficient, cost effective, and possible via a single individual without much, if any, strain upon the individual. Epic magic, by it's very nature, is infinite in it's potential, yet the drawbacks and penalties inherent to such a method of spellcasting invariably prevents any but the most powerful (or large group, ala High Magic) from duplicating even the most menial of 10th level spells, not to mention 11th level spells and thus it's the nature of Epic Magic that is the very thing that prevents Epic Spells of such power to rival the "power" (or more accurately, sheer abundance) of old true 10th+ magic (save for of course High Magic, who's participants are numerous enough to allow for the ritual rules to really work well:D) which may be one reason why Mystra allows it. Look at Proctiv's move mountain and Tolodine's killing wind. Both 10th level spells during Netheril, now however, their epic versions are litterally impossible. Heck, if calculated correctly, Proctiv's move mountain would have a DC in the millions. Less than two millenia ago tho', 20th level arcanists were casting it rather often to sheer mountains off for floating cities. It's my opinion that Mystra's cap on 10+ level spells indirectly prohibits the casting of Shadow Weave-based 10+ level spells. After all, the SW is a dark echo of the Weave. Their can't be an echo if there's no sound. Magic of Faerun specifically states that the SW is completely unaffected by Mystra's laws or states of well-being. Take that as you will:) Given also the fact that FnP specifically point out that Mystra's portfolio sense and abilities are strictly only for her portfolio as they pertain to the Weave (as in she is unable to sense or affect any magic that's not Weave-based, nor is she able to prevent anyone from using magic that doesn't draw on the Weave, and moreso is not able to know that the person is using magic if it does not draw upon the Weave), combined with what's in MoF, it seems pretty clear the Weave and SW are clearly independent conduits that don't effect eachother by simply existing (or not existing, should one be destroyed, the other is 100% unaffected). That being said, I fail to see how the SW could be restricted via a Ban that is specifically stated as not affecting it and the deity imposing said Ban has no authority, divine or otherwise, to restrict something that falls completely outside of her periphial. I've read an explaination over on Candlekeep about how the SW isn't capable of true 10th+ magic, and it was pretty decent, tho' it didn't take into consideration a few things in published material. Hmmm...I'll have to try and find it again. The penalties to a caster can be offset by several factors so therefor it is possible to create Epic Spells that can equal or exceed the effect of 10th Level+ spells. See above:) Epic spells simply aren't very cost effective or efficient, which is prolly the reason why the Netherese prefered true 10th+ magic. Economical little buggers they were. Just going on a blend of what is found in rules books presented and the Return of the Archmage information presented in those books. Keep in mind that novels often take an in-character point of view. The information within those books are largely from Melegaunts PoV, as we've found out, he had a knack for fibbing, misleading, and generally simply not knowing facts. -The Shadow Weave did indeed exist during the height of Netheril, as per multiple sources, including a story in Realms of Shadow that blatently says that Lord Shadow utilizes the power of the Shadow Weave. Also the Shadow Weave mini-mythallar that was inside a simulacrum on Karsus's Enclave.
Lord Karsus 04-12-07, 09:02 AM	Just going on a blend of what is found in rules books presented and the Return of the Archmage information presented in those books. -Don't do that. The laws of...nature seemed to change during that series, and then things returned to normal afterwards. What I am saying, is that the author used a whole lot of poetic licence, and of the ideas her used, very few were actually adopted. Also the Shadow Weave mini-mythallar that was inside a simulacrum on Karsus's Enclave. -Which obviously couldn't have been created without the Shadow Weave.
Krash 04-14-07, 11:46 PM	Look at Proctiv's move mountain and Tolodine's killing wind. Both 10th level spells during Netheril, now however, their epic versions are litterally impossible. Heck, if calculated correctly, Proctiv's move mountain would have a DC in the millions. Less than two millenia ago tho', 20th level arcanists were casting it rather often to sheer mountains off for floating cities. Umm, not quite true. Ed had this to say a while ago: Very few of the floating cities of Netheril were severed mountaintops. I know of only four, out of almost two score floating cities and castles (some floating constructs were little more than a single fortress).Mountaintops are rarely “solid” rock, but rather the exposed and weathered “pointy ends” of fissured and cracked rock that’s either volcanic (and therefore of different consistencies, from the former outer cone ash to the onetime magma shaft), folded layers of rock thrust up “on end,” or even different tectonic plates. They don’t “hang together,” and thus there’s no benefit to lopping off mountaintops except impressing the observer. Most of the mountains (edge of Anauroch, in Thar, and areas now under the High Ice) that were mined or quarried or sculpted by various Netherese were consumed down to a rocky plain or plateau, and so have “left no trace” to modern mappers and explorers. Many Netherese archwizards experimented with melting stone and sculpting it (to form honeycombed-with-passages “bases” that they then built up into soaring-spired palaces somewhat as a modern master confectioner “builds” an ornate wedding-cake), and they usually found it easiest to quarry boulders (cottage-sized and smaller) and magically bind them to other boulders of the same size, slowly building the result into a platform of about the size they wanted (constructed lying atop bare rock plateaus on the ground, not in the air). Most Netherese cities looked like a series of palaces set among terraced gardens, with a few “viewing rooms” or griffon-steed landing ports visible around the “lower curve” edges. The creative competition turned in the direction of changing gravity, “sky” hue, and other local physical conditions by means of layers upon layers of spells. Also, it’s important to remember that the Netherese archwizards were extremely competitive. There’s NO WAY that Proctiv’s Move Mountain would have been a spell “shared around” at the time the enclaves were being created. So every enclave creator would have had to “reinvent the wheel” and craft an enclave in their own way. The most popular form of enclave creation was to create a rigid flying base out of something (permanent wall of forces were popular) and bond the archwizard’s existing tower, castle, or garden-surrounded mansion onto it. Just FYI.:) -- George Krashos
Karsus the Mad 04-15-07, 12:32 AM	double post
Karsus the Mad 04-15-07, 12:50 AM	Umm, not quite true. Ed had this to say a while ago: Very few of the floating cities of Netheril were severed mountaintops. I know of only four, out of almost two score floating cities and castles (some floating constructs were little more than a single fortress).Mountaintops are rarely “solid” rock, but rather the exposed and weathered “pointy ends” of fissured and cracked rock that’s either volcanic (and therefore of different consistencies, from the former outer cone ash to the onetime magma shaft), folded layers of rock thrust up “on end,” or even different tectonic plates. They don’t “hang together,” and thus there’s no benefit to lopping off mountaintops except impressing the observer. Most of the mountains (edge of Anauroch, in Thar, and areas now under the High Ice) that were mined or quarried or sculpted by various Netherese were consumed down to a rocky plain or plateau, and so have “left no trace” to modern mappers and explorers. Many Netherese archwizards experimented with melting stone and sculpting it (to form honeycombed-with-passages “bases” that they then built up into soaring-spired palaces somewhat as a modern master confectioner “builds” an ornate wedding-cake), and they usually found it easiest to quarry boulders (cottage-sized and smaller) and magically bind them to other boulders of the same size, slowly building the result into a platform of about the size they wanted (constructed lying atop bare rock plateaus on the ground, not in the air). Most Netherese cities looked like a series of palaces set among terraced gardens, with a few “viewing rooms” or griffon-steed landing ports visible around the “lower curve” edges. The creative competition turned in the direction of changing gravity, “sky” hue, and other local physical conditions by means of layers upon layers of spells. Also, it’s important to remember that the Netherese archwizards were extremely competitive. There’s NO WAY that Proctiv’s Move Mountain would have been a spell “shared around” at the time the enclaves were being created. So every enclave creator would have had to “reinvent the wheel” and craft an enclave in their own way. The most popular form of enclave creation was to create a rigid flying base out of something (permanent wall of forces were popular) and bond the archwizard’s existing tower, castle, or garden-surrounded mansion onto it. Just FYI.:) -- George Krashos Yep, already knew that:) Which part of what I said wasn't true tho'? The DC of the epic version of PMM? Given the transport seed's +2 per 1,000 pounds, and the average weight of a rough mile cone of stone, dirt, etc, I most certainly do think it'd be in the millions, or at the very least far more than +40. If it's the abundance of arcanists sheering mountaintops off, one merely needs to look at PMM. Sheering mountaintops off was apparently done enough times to warrant a standardization in the process, and the spell description (in both the true 10th version and it's 3.5 epic counterpart, as well as "Creating an Enclave" in NEoM, and the class description for the Netherese arcanist PrC, the artifact description for mythallars in both NEoM and LEoF, under Karsus in NEoM, under "Sharn" in NEoM, etc, etc, etc all state mountain tops) itself states it was vital in the construction of enclaves (plural). If it's not true, and the method wasn't used often, and mountain tops weren't all that common for enclaves I must wonder why it's the only method and material that has ever been described in any published material. While I don't think it would be the same exact spell, for simplicity sake, whatever method/spell used would be mechanically identical. Oddly enough, the only person described as having used a different method than the one set down by Ioulaum was, amazingly, Ioulaum himself (another little contradiction by NEoM):D In any event, that wasn't the purpose of my post. I was merely using it (and Tolodine's killing wind) as an example of how difficult it is to reproduce true 10th+ effects with Epic magic, and to show the disparity between the two methodologies.
He Who Lurks 04-15-07, 01:36 AM	Shar will never allow Shadow Weave users to utilize spells of 10th level or greater, for one simple reason: she's not an idiot. Mystryl let wizards get away with that crap, and look what happened to her. Shar is smart enough to learn from mistakes, even if they're made by others. Obviously, my opinion comes with at least one caveat. Shar would allow it if it was necessary. For example, if Mystra lifted the ban on her half, Shar would practically be compelled to do likewise. After all, what's the draw of the Shadow Weave if it is demonstrably weaker than the Weave? Of course, she may just wait for Karsus' Folly to repeat itself and let the unfortunate Mystra suffer the consequences, while she remains safe in her prudence.
Stigger 04-17-07, 08:58 AM	You know, I was rereading Secrets of the Magister earlier this evening, and for some reason it looked as if it said 10+ level spells could still technically be cast, but that you had to take some really elaborate steps to do so... not sure how to interpret the Forbidden Magic section of that book really.
Karsus the Mad 04-17-07, 09:39 AM	You know, I was rereading Secrets of the Magister earlier this evening, and for some reason it looked as if it said 10+ level spells could still technically be cast, but that you had to take some really elaborate steps to do so... not sure how to interpret the Forbidden Magic section of that book really. True Dweomers I believe. High-Level Campaigns actually has 2e rules that formed the foundation for 3e Epic Spellcasting, including the use of "seeds". At least that's what I've understood from these boards (I may be mistaken). In 2e, true 10th level spells were still accessible to elves, and certain individuals with Mystra's approval. Mystra's Ban, as per the NEoM, states 11th+ magic was banned from mortals. It never stated 10th level spells;) Obviously, the new interpretation of the Ban in LEoF retcons that to include true 10th level spells as well.
Stigger 04-17-07, 04:16 PM	Yeah, I know about True Dweomers, even have the book that they're detailed in. But it specifically mentioned True Dweomers in there... can't recall it that clearly at the moment for some reason, but I got the impression that it was making a distinction between the two for some reason.
Karsus the Mad 04-17-07, 11:12 PM	Yeah, I know about True Dweomers, even have the book that they're detailed in. But it specifically mentioned True Dweomers in there... can't recall it that clearly at the moment for some reason, but I got the impression that it was making a distinction between the two for some reason. True Dweomers were effectively "10th" level spells the same way Epic Spells are effectively "10th" level spells, while not being true 10th level spells. As I mentioned above tho', in 2e, there were people that could still cast true 10th level spells (elves and select individuals that Mystra deemed ok), but in 3.5 that's been effectively retconned with LEoF reiterating that all mortals were banned from 10th+ magic, and that because several spells have existed as both true level magic and epic spells, there's confusion among scholars. This can also be seen by many 2e elven 10th level spells being either converted into Epic spells or downgraded to 9th level.
Stigger 04-18-07, 01:35 AM	Really wish someone had come up with a proper answer for this crap... it keeps me up at night pondering these things when I could be scribbling in my notebook more epic spells to smash things with...
Karsus the Mad 04-18-07, 01:39 AM	Really wish someone had come up with a proper answer for this crap... That's the flu talking:P You should be laying down relaxing. scribbling in my notebook more epic spells to smash things with... I tried working out the calculations for the Imaskari Deity Ban...I don't recomend attempting it.
Stigger 04-18-07, 01:42 AM	Ah, C'mon, its not that hard if you treat each deity as a seperate warding spell. Doing it all at once is kinda crazy, but breaking it up into more manageable chunks should work. Just get a bunch of wizards to cast the various bits you need all at once and you're golden.
Karsus the Mad 04-18-07, 06:58 AM	Ah, C'mon, its not that hard if you treat each deity as a seperate warding spell. Doing it all at once is kinda crazy, but breaking it up into more manageable chunks should work. Just get a bunch of wizards to cast the various bits you need all at once and you're golden. Since most deities are typed as outsiders, the ward seed vs. outsiders takes care of all of those. There's still a few deities that don't have outsider HD, so something more specific needs to be added. Also, a mythal prevalent anathema effect to break the link between deities and worshippers. However, the effect it'self of the ban itself is amazingly easy. It's getting it to incoporate an entire plane of existence!:P Even taking it from the perspective of only covering Toril, it's still an impossible DC. The only way to make it feasible is if every single Imaskari artificer participated in the ritual, donating their highest slot. Even then, I don't think it's particularly feasible. Maybe capstone and anchoring it would help.
Zandilar 04-18-07, 07:57 AM	Heya, I don't like the Shadow Weave, I'll just state that for the record... But I just wanted to toss something into the pot and let you guys mull over it and stir it around a bit in your heads... ;) Mystra Portfolio: Magic, spells, the Weave Shar Portfolio: Caverns, dark, dungeons, forgetfulness, loss, night, secrets, the Underdark Me thinks Shar forgot something. ;) If you want to know what I'm on about, and can't see it from what I just posted: She might have the salient divine ability to Deny Shadow Weave, but she doesn't have it in her portfolio.
Stigger 04-18-07, 09:52 AM	Yet more indication it was just something they tacked on to the setting without too much forethought... As to the Toril-wide ban aspect of it... that could be a problem, but given the fact that they created at least seven artifact level items, I don't think it would be too much of a stretch to say that there were at least a couple of artifacts amplifying the effects of their ban. Could be that was partially a function of those priest imprisoning sphere things LEoF mentioned.
BrennonGoldeye 04-18-07, 10:23 AM	Or possibly an indication that She just isn't that good at the whole SW thing. I can learn Mandarin all I want, speak it like a pro, still don't get some of the jokes spoken by those who were born to it(or gave birth to it in this case). The smudges can whine all they want, Mystra is head and shoulders above Shar when it comes to magic, She was born as just that. :king: P.S. I state this simply as an alternative to "The Terran humans who created this were simply not up to snuf." I'll go back to The Children of Hurin now and leave you folks be.
Lord Karsus 04-18-07, 05:05 PM	-To me, the lack of the portfiolio just symbolizes that Shar is not the Shadow Weave, as Mystra is the Weave. Oh, and that the entire Shadow Weave needed a bit more thought before being plunked in the Realms. I'll go back to The Children of Hurin now and leave you folks be. -Wait, that came out already? Well, obviously...
BrennonGoldeye 04-18-07, 05:17 PM	-Wait, that came out already? Well, obviously... Yesterday. I'm as happy as a little girl! :D <holding shirt in front of nipples>
Lord Karsus 04-18-07, 06:24 PM	Yesterday. I'm as happy as a little girl! :D <holding shirt in front of nipples> -Wait, you have nipples? :D
Karsus the Mad 04-18-07, 07:07 PM	-Wait, you have nipples? :D As do you LK;)
Lord Karsus 04-18-07, 08:32 PM	As do you LK;) -Sadly, I am nippleless. When we were torn asunder, either your aspect got my nipples, or our elusive third aspect has my pair...:(
Stigger 04-19-07, 11:34 AM	Icky...