Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Lode 03-01-08, 02:34 AM	Is there a reason in the campaign setting why smokepowder has to be a magical rather than mundane composition of sulfur, charcoal, and saltpeter?
Old Sage 03-01-08, 05:55 AM	Smoke powder *is* a magical powder similar to gun powder. As for the reason, see my earlier explanation here (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=15183072&postcount=44). Note that it is the rule for the officially published Realms setting. It is a guideline for the individual DM's home Realms campaign.
Lode 03-01-08, 02:17 PM	So ostensibly, blackpowder (non-magical smokepowder) would work once you've left Toril proper? Is there a reason Toril is this way or was it an arbitrary decision made at it's inception?
Lode 03-01-08, 08:48 PM	A thought: since 4E rules don't require XP in crafting magical items, who thinks we'll see an increase in smokepowder weaponry in canon FR?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-01-08, 10:46 PM	A thought: since 4E rules don't require XP in crafting magical items, who thinks we'll see an increase in smokepowder weaponry in canon FR? Not me! Rich Baker said there will not be a 4E emphasis on smokepowder weaponry.
Lode 03-02-08, 04:24 AM	Rich Baker said there will not be a 4E emphasis on smokepowder weaponry. But there will still be smokepowder, so still lots of potential for explosive mischief. Unless they decide it's gone for whatever reason.
Faraer 03-02-08, 01:55 PM	Is there a reason in the campaign setting why smokepowder has to be a magical rather than mundane composition of sulfur, charcoal, and saltpeter? So that a world in contact with Earth and other technologically advanced worlds remains a setting of heroic fantasy. Conversely, is there a reason why a mundane composition of sulphur, charcoal, and saltpetre would be explosive in Faerūn? No, because it's not our world and doesn't share its physics and chemistry.
MarkusTay63 03-02-08, 04:49 PM	Gunpowder/Blackpowder works just fine once you exit the Crystal Sphere encompassing Realmspace. The inclusion of Smokepowder rather then Gunpowder as the 'working explosive' on Toril was to limit an adventuring group from using meta-game knowledge to create weapons that should be beyond their current tech. Smokepowder was played up when 2e hit the shelves (look in the Forgotten Realms Adventures sourcebook), but then were almost completely ignore in 3e. I think this trend will continue in 4e, and as Rinon has already pointed out, I believe Rich has said as much. FR is a fantasy setting, not a Steam-tech setting. On the other hand, Brian James did make a rather obscure reference to 'Shou Canons' in his recent article. ;) They are there if you want them to be there - nothing more and nothing less.
Lode 03-02-08, 05:14 PM	So that a world in contact with Earth and other technologically advanced worlds remains a setting of heroic fantasy. Early firearms would no more take away the 'heroic fantasy' aspect of the campaign setting than crossbows. Gunpowder/Blackpowder works just fine once you exit the Crystal Sphere encompassing Realmspace. Sounds less like a problem with physics, which if it were the case then the FR would look much different than anything we're even remotely familiar with, than a problem with arcane/divine power. The inclusion of Smokepowder rather then Gunpowder as the 'working explosive' on Toril was to limit an adventuring group from using meta-game knowledge to create weapons that should be beyond their current tech. Makes sense, but a DM that would allow his players to invent automatic weaponry or some such out of a technological void is a poor DM indeed. In my opinion, blackpowder does two things: it makes mooks just slightly more dangerous and adds a new tool that PCs can use. I don't see it utterly destroying the high fantasy feel of the FR.
MarkusTay63 03-02-08, 05:17 PM	For the record, I am willing to use it in my campaigns, but my players do not want me to, so I don't. I've learned the hard way to listen to the players desires over my own.
Faraer 03-02-08, 05:34 PM	Early firearms would no more take away the 'heroic fantasy' aspect of the campaign setting than crossbows.Ed, other Realms designers, and I dare say most authors of heroic fantasy disagree or, otherwise put, are after a different feel than you are.
Lode 03-02-08, 06:21 PM	Ed, other Realms designers, and I dare say most authors of heroic fantasy disagree or, otherwise put, are after a different feel than you are. No doubt they do, but I've always felt that the presence of powder weapons in and of themselves shouldn't be considered as taking away from the heroic feel of the game. So long as PCs are able to slay dragons with swords and call fire from the sky, then it is still heroic fantasy.
The Ubbergeek 03-02-08, 07:51 PM	Early firearms are not uberpowerfull weapons. They wouldn't break the story, reallly...
Bullet06320 03-02-08, 11:08 PM	I recall one of the Novels, in the city series I think, Don't remeber the name of the book though. one of the characters makes reference to the chemical make up of Smokepowder(sulphur, charcoal, and saltpeter), with a comment something like, "every Alchemist knows that"
MarkusTay63 03-02-08, 11:30 PM	The name 'Smokepowder' is also used interchangebly with 'Gunpowder' several times in the novel Dragonwall, and the Shou army uses both rockets and an early form of 'machine gun' (basically, just a funnel filled with arrows). The Shou seem to think Smokepowder is no big deal, and what I have read on the Eastern Realms (source and novels) it does not say that magical ability is required for its manufacture. I suggested in another thread that you could theoretically create an NPC class of 'Shou Alchemist', which would be an expert capable of taking levels of Alchemy without needing the arcane caster pre-requisite. The Shou have been using Smokepowder for ornamental purposes (fireworks) for centuries, so it is no big deal to them. The fact that the formula appears to be the same for Smokepowder and Black Powder would indicate to me that there has indeed been some sort of 'divine restriction' on the stuff. That means the Smoke powder IS Gunpowder, with an enchantment laid over it so it will work in Realmspace. Maybe with the Weave down, the restriction will be lifted, and the additional enchantment will no longer be required in 4e.
Lord Karsus 03-03-08, 02:55 AM	No doubt they do, but I've always felt that the presence of powder weapons in and of themselves shouldn't be considered as taking away from the heroic feel of the game. So long as PCs are able to slay dragons with swords and call fire from the sky, then it is still heroic fantasy. -I certainly think so. The campaign I am running has a main character PC who utilizes a poistol as her weapon of choice, and guns/cannons are rare, but existant. None of my players have ever had any problems with this, nor have I.
Mula 03-03-08, 12:59 PM	Maybe with the Weave down, the restriction will be lifted, and the additional enchantment will no longer be required in 4e. Even if this did happen, we won't really be seeing gun or smokepowder and weapons that utilize them in 4e Realms. First, Baker said this, and second, it just doesn't fit into most (?) fantasy fans' idea of a fantasy world. I personally don't have a problem with guns, magical smokepowder guns or mundane.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-03-08, 03:51 PM	But there will still be smokepowder, so still lots of potential for explosive mischief. Unless they decide it's gone for whatever reason. Potential that will most likely go unrealized, as per Rich Baker.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-03-08, 03:55 PM	I recall one of the Novels, in the city series I think, Don't remeber the name of the book though. one of the characters makes reference to the chemical make up of Smokepowder(sulphur, charcoal, and saltpeter), with a comment something like, "every Alchemist knows that" That was the Watercourse trilogy. And in my opinion, that makes that novel even less reliable as a source of good FR information (don't mind me, that series annoyed me).
MarkusTay63 03-04-08, 01:03 PM	Lets not forget the gas explosion caused by the Mithral Hall Dwarves during their War with Menzoberranzan. :D Not exactly Smokepowder related, but fun never-the-less. Good times... good times... :cool:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-04-08, 08:22 PM	You're right! Although, it's been a while since I read that novel, and the details are fuzzy...did the gnome not use any magic to cause the explosion? I remember in the The Watercourse Trilogy, the protagonist made it a point not to involve magic in his "creation" (I guess that went against his Objectivist beliefs?:confused: ), but Nanfoodle was not only an alchemist, but a wizard.
Lord Karsus 03-04-08, 11:45 PM	Although, it's been a while since I read that novel, and the details are fuzzy...did the gnome not use any magic to cause the explosion? -As far as I remember it, it was more or less a gigantic methane explosion.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-05-08, 12:35 PM	-As far as I remember it, it was more or less a gigantic methane explosion. Heh. I think you're right! If that was the case, it probably was an example of a scientific explosion with no magic involved.
Bullet06320 03-06-08, 04:59 AM	That was the Watercourse trilogy. And in my opinion, that makes that novel even less reliable as a source of good FR information (don't mind me, that series annoyed me). I have'nt read the watercourse trilogy yet, so i don't Know any references from them yet
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 06:06 AM	Heh. I think you're right! -Of course I am. ;)
MarkusTay63 03-15-08, 04:24 PM	I posted this over at CK, but I thought it might recieve more attention here, so without further ado... Also, there has been some discussion as the manufacture of Smokepowder in the Realms. Since it required the use of the Alchemy skill, it precludes non-MUs from creating it, yet the Kara-Tur setting seems to indicate that Smokepowder is fairly common (for display purposes). I suggested that K-T has a unique NPC Expert class called Shou Alchemist, that would allow non-Mages to craft it. Now you got me thinking (along the same lines as the weapons and armor), that perhaps ANYONE can make the stuff (after all, according to the Watercourse trilogy, it is chemically IDENTICAL to Black Powder), but a spell is required to 'activate' it within the Realms. There is something about the Realms that does not allow Gunpowder to function normally, yet you can actually make it in the Realms and bring it outside of Realmspace and it will work. :confused: So heres my new thought on the matter - its a seperate SKILL, not Feat (Craft Gunpowder), but it requires a mage to use the Activate Smokepowder spell to get it to function in Realmspace. That spell still limits the availabiltity (after all, how many mages are going to bother to learn it?), but allows for greater amounts to be created that can then be 'magicked' into functionality. Activate Smokepowder Transmutation Level: Sor/Wiz 4, Wujen 3, Earth/Fire 3, Gondsmen 2 Components: V, S, M Casting Time: 5 minutes per pound handled Range: Close (5 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels Target: Blackpowder/Gunpowder, up to ½ lb. per level of caster. Effects: Allows Gunpowder to function normally (Smokepowder) Duration: Permanent Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Special* This spell allows a caster to override Gond's edict disallowing Gunpowder/Blackpowder from functioning in Realmspace. This spell does not actually transform the substance in anyway, but rather allows it to function as it would outside of Realmspace. Blackpowder enchanted this way becomes known as Smokepowder, and can be disenchanted by the same means as other magical items (dead magic zones, Disjunction, etc...). Disenchanted Blackpowder can be re-enchanted into Smokepowder if it loses it enchantment for any reason. *Gond does not allow mortals to override his edicts lightly; he is a rather fickle god and decides each casting on a case-by-case basis. Everytime this spell is cast the MU must roll a D20. On a roll of a natural "1", roll again and consult the following table: Roll ................. Result 1 ........ Massive Explosion, equivalent to a fireball cast by a 10th lev Mage, materials destroyed 2-5 ..... Small Explosion, equivalent to a Fireball cast by a 4th lev mage, all materials destroyed 6-10 ... Materials destroyed 11-19.. Spell failure, must wait 24 hours before attempting the spell again 20+ .... Gond's Blessing. Materials become Thunder Powder, and ALL effects are doubled for use (Fireworks display size, Weapon Range, ANY backfire chances Dms may apply, etc...) Gondsmen can apply ¼ their level (rounded up) to this second roll. Any Thoughts on this? I think it rectifies quite a bit of the 'mystique' surrounding Smokepowder, and all of the disparate lore.
Lode 03-16-08, 02:44 AM	Nice, now we finally have a use for our rogue/wizard. Seriously though, it gives gnomes some proper firepower while at the same time retaining the hijinks they're so famous for. As an aside, how powerful is Gond? I know gods can bend or break physical laws as much as they please but I don't believe I've ever heard of any of them operating on a global scale like this.
Quale_ 03-16-08, 12:42 PM	why would he disallow gunpowder, for monopolistic reasons?
MarkusTay63 03-16-08, 02:02 PM	Gunpowder is disallowed in Realmspace, although it is never explained - that is canon. One might assume that Ao has disallowed it, or perhaps even Mystra, because of their all-pervasive power, but you run into problems because of the existance of Smokepowder. The logic is as follows: Gondsmen create Smokepowder, as do some others, but Gondsmen have a knack for it (also canon). Since the Watercourse trilogy has established that Smokepowder has the SAME chemical composition as Gunpowder, then obviously there must be something more to it (also, the Dragonwall novel uses the terms 'Smokepowder' and 'Gunpowder' interchangably, several times). What I get from all of that is that they ARE indeed the same thing, but a decree has been made on a devine level to limit its use, and that is why a spell is required to change Gunpowder to Smokepowder. Basically, its like giving the substance a 'permission slip' to function properly - nothing more. Since Gond is also in charge of the 'hard sciences', I would assume natural chemical reactions falls under his juridiction. Also, events in the novel Prince of Lies places Gond and his Gondsmen fully at the forefront of Smokepowder development. Now, Gond may not have been the uber-power that denied its useage in Realmspace, but obviously his portfolio has allowed him to circumvent the rules somewhat. The name was changed just so folks would think it is something altogether different, when quite obviously it is not. It is chemically identical, and behaves exactly the same as Gunpowder in every respect (including the types of Firearms it can be used in). I added the Thunderpowder in because that term is also used for it in the Kara-Tur novel, and I decided to 'spruce it up' a bit to make things more intersting (and unpredictable). All I did was figure out a logical reason for all the disparate lore to work, give DMs some fun rules to play with if their players insist on using the stuff, and also add in enough of a random factor to explain why most people don't bother with it. This actually becomes more important to those playing a Spelljammer campaign, since the rules on the two substances are very fuzzy in canon. Now all a spacefarer need do is find a local mage with the appropriate spell to 'enchant' his Gunpowder into Smokepowder, and everything syncs up. If it works for you, use it... if not, its all good. ;)
Bullet06320 03-17-08, 01:48 PM	Not Bad, good logic
GoldDragon 03-20-08, 10:55 PM	Is there a reason in the campaign setting why smokepowder has to be a magical rather than mundane composition of sulfur, charcoal, and saltpeter? Smokepowder is the "will of Gond" The god of Tech (Gond) as well as the god of knowledge doesn't allow Black powder to work the way it should in the Forgotton Realms. This is actually true of all knowledge and technology in the Forgotton Realms. It doesn't work or can not be unless the god in charge of it allows it. In the Spelljamming days it just meant that any guns loaded with black powder would not work in Forgotten Realms Realmspace but once out of the Crystal Sphere the "inert" Black powder becomes "reactivated" as it is godly influences on the knowledge and tech and not the tech itself that is useless in the Forgotton Realms There is also a vague reference that instead of a Magnetic Field like Earth has, Toril has a "Magical/Life Field" in being a Megalith (Huge living creature of the Elemental plane of Earth easily mistaken for a "planet")....basically means Electronics and Electricity based technology won't function as Magical fields acts like a "EM burst" on electrical circuitry (fries it out) at worse and Gond or Oogy won't let it work without permision at best (if shielded) ANd really, <YAWN>, guns are nothing more then gloryfied, loud, and expensive to use Bullet and Bolt hurlers that do inflict more damage with modern non-black powder based accelerants and current gun technology but Smokepowder and Blackpowder weapons that are allowed and used in the Forgotten Realms are no more poweful then a Experienced bowan with 18th stregth using a Composite Long bow launching a flight arrow with a armor peircing head. Actually since he can fire 2 arrows on average per round v.s. a Gunner that will need 3 rounds to load between firing I rather be the BOwman then the Gunner doing "softening attacks" when there are a group of 10 Orcs charging me from 300 feet away and running at me 60 feet a round as there will be less to deal with once in Mele range (quickly able to switch Long Sword) while Gunners don't usually carry Mele Weapons...do they? (maybe a Baynet on the gun, if they remembered to put it there) Also, something you can't do with a gun even today, I would be using Arrows with 6 inch long 2 inch wide jagged heads with bleeder notches and ripper tails so that if they blow through the Orcs they'll take out a big chunk of flesh with them and if they get stuck in the Orc the wound will bleed a lot and if they pull it out it will rip the wound bigger :evillaugh:
MarkusTay63 03-20-08, 11:20 PM	Early gunnes had built in 'spears' (Bayonets), as well as daggers and even axes, and the stock could readily be used as a make-shift club. Also, early gunners (Arquebusiers (http://www.taots.co.uk/content/view/15/27/)) all carried swords - see the Three Musketeers and Pirates of the Carribean as a reference. ;)
GoldDragon 03-21-08, 01:50 AM	Early gunnes had built in 'spears' (Bayonets), as well as daggers and even axes, and the stock could readily be used as a make-shift club. Also, early gunners (Arquebusiers (http://www.taots.co.uk/content/view/15/27/)) all carried swords - see the Three Musketeers and Pirates of the Carribean as a reference. ;) Well the Musketeers used the guns they carried as softening weapons then drew their Raipers to do real fighting after. Like wise Pirates used guns when they had them but at 1 shot per gun you only had as many shots as you had loaded guns on you. Problem with preloaded guns amiss a battle is all you moving about could shift the powder, let alone a gun getting lost, dropped, wet, misfiring, or the flint chipping or wheel breaking, or improper packing to begin with. Would recommend self reloading automatic Crossbows over Firearms. Cause the "Far East" of the Forgotten realms mimics the Far East of earth in so many ways it might be interesting to know that the Chinese had Repeating Crossbows since 2 B.C. and it held 20 bolts in it's gravity drop container and could fire 1 shot a second in experienced hands.
creyzi4zb12 03-21-08, 10:57 PM	-I certainly think so. The campaign I am running has a main character PC who utilizes a poistol as her weapon of choice, and guns/cannons are rare, but existant. None of my players have ever had any problems with this, nor have I. WHy would you want a pistol when you can have a rifle? I think they disallow gondpowder in FR due to the fact that they are afraid that technology would beat magic someday. Reminds me of Arcanum.
MarkusTay63 03-22-08, 01:38 AM	I thought about incorporatin Arcanum's magic vs tech rules, but I think that would be way to cumbersome for P&P RPG. Cool system, though, with failure chances increases depending on how much of the opposite thing you carried on you. And they had a Choo Choo... Eberron has a Choo Choo... Iron Dragons had Choo Choos Why can't we have a Choo-Choo? :(
Lode 03-22-08, 09:04 PM	There is also a vague reference that instead of a Magnetic Field like Earth has, Toril has a "Magical/Life Field" in being a Megalith (Huge living creature of the Elemental plane of Earth easily mistaken for a "planet")....basically means Electronics and Electricity based technology won't function as Magical fields acts like a "EM burst" on electrical circuitry (fries it out) at worse and Gond or Oogy won't let it work without permision at best (if shielded) That's one I've never heard before. Did you get that from GHotR? Smokepowder and Blackpowder weapons that are allowed and used in the Forgotten Realms are no more poweful then a Experienced bowan with 18th stregth using a Composite Long bow launching a flight arrow with a armor peircing head Right, but then guns replaced bows not because they were better from a tactical standpoint but because guns were better suited to the expanding nature of war. In other words, your archer, assuming he was rested, strong and experienced in the use of his weapon, could very well kill nine arquebusiers, but the tenth one would get him. And if not the tenth, then the eleventh, twelfth, etc. Early gunnes had built in 'spears' (Bayonets), as well as daggers and even axes, and the stock could readily be used as a make-shift club. Which is really the reason why early guns replaced crossbows in the first place. Would recommend self reloading automatic Crossbows over Firearms. Cause the "Far East" of the Forgotten realms mimics the Far East of earth in so many ways it might be interesting to know that the Chinese had Repeating Crossbows since 2 B.C. and it held 20 bolts in it's gravity drop container and could fire 1 shot a second in experienced hands. Except that real world repeating crossbows had about as much penetrating power as a stick of butter launched with a nerf gun. It probably worked as a morale killer or against large masses of unarmored targets, but don't count on it to work against any force with significant armor.
MarkusTay63 03-22-08, 10:51 PM	Which is really the reason why early guns replaced crossbows in the first place. Some of my favorites - http://www.myarmoury.com/images/features/pic_spot_combo31_s.gif http://www.myarmoury.com/images/features/pic_spot_combo01.jpg http://www.myarmoury.com/images/features/pic_spot_combo48.jpg Sometimes, the history is more fantastical then the fiction. ;)