Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Razz 04-30-07, 11:45 PM	I'm reading up on Kelemvor and the Fugue Plane and all that jazz and I came to a realization and huge question... Kelemvor and Jergal overseer the Fugue Plane where the souls of the dead arrive. Here they wait until their deities come to pick them up. The False and Faithless end up in Kelemvor's domain. ---Now is this just Faerun's souls? Or is it all of Toril/Realmspace? ---Is it only humans and the worshipers of the Faerunian Pantheon? Or is it the souls of all creatures such as dwarves, dragons, elves, halflings, illithids, yuan-ti and anything else living that moves on in the afterlife? What about the Mulhorandi and Untherites? ---Is it limited to Faerun only? Or do the dead in Maztica, Zhakara, and Kara-Tur end up in the Fugue Plane too? I remember reading in Player's Guide to Faerun that those other realms have their own Astral Plane and it leads to their deities realms so Kelemvor has no jurisdiction in it But what if a native of Maztica or Kara-Tur adventured in Faerun, and had a deity as a patron from their own realm? If they died, would their soul go to their proper deity's plane of judgement, or would they end up in the Fugue Plane? I am also assuming that Mulhoranid pantheon and the nonhuman pantheons also go to the Fugue Plane when dead since it overlaps the geographical area of control.
Dielzen 04-30-07, 11:54 PM	Souls that have deities/etc get snapped up before they ever get to Kelemvor. And only faerunian humans would make it to him unless they were faithless/false, and I'm not 100% sure what would happen to those, tho Bane had all sorts of races in his service.
The Ubbergeek 05-01-07, 01:07 AM	There is quite a few numbers of faerunian pantheon deities who have followers amongst other races - like Shar with Underdark beings, Tymorra and halflings, Gond and gnomes, etc... Bane is one of them, merely.
Dielzen 05-01-07, 01:58 AM	err, you're talking about worshippers, which wouldn't be False/Faithless I'm talking about F/F of multidinous races, as evidenced in some of the Cyric novels.
Stigger 05-01-07, 09:00 AM	Don't recall it ever being mentioned one way or another, so I guess whatever way you want it to work would probably be the right answer. Presumably pantheons with their own death gods would have it handled by that deity rather than Kelemvor though. Personally, I'd say that he only handled humans who worshipped the Faerunian pantheon, but that's my own preference more than some canon source that I'm aware of.
boggler65 05-01-07, 05:45 PM	Page 258 of the FRCS states that: "When mortals die, their souls are drawn to the Fugue Plane... The spirits of the dead gather here, usually unaware that they have died. From time to time (anywhere from once a day to over a tenday, depending on the deities involved), the powers send representatives- usually outsiders of the appropriate alignment- to the Fugue Plane to gather the souls of their own worshippers... The agent collects the proper souls and returns to its deity's realm, where the worshiper serves the deity in whatever capacity necessary. Agents cannot take worshipers of deities other than those they represent. Neither the FRCS nor Faiths and Pantheons are very clear on the meaning of his role as "Judge of the Damned/ Lord of the Dead." I would assume that lord of the dead refers to his dominion over the portfolio of death, and his home plane. Anything mortal ends up on the fugue plane for at least a time after death, the FRCS is very clear about that. So I would guess his main power lies in determining who is faithless, and punishing them accordingly. I would assume that individuals worshiping an outsider rather than a god would also fall under "faithless" Anyway that's the best I can do. No matter what their faith or culture, all souls (presumably on toril) end up on the fugue plane.
Valgard 05-02-07, 08:07 AM	I would assume that lord of the dead refers to his dominion over the portfolio of death, and his home plane. Anything mortal ends up on the fugue plane for at least a time after death, the FRCS is very clear about that. So I would guess his main power lies in determining who is faithless, and punishing them accordingly. I would assume that individuals worshiping an outsider rather than a god would also fall under "faithless" Anyway that's the best I can do. No matter what their faith or culture, all souls (presumably on toril) end up on the fugue plane.I agree with this. A part from that, I assume that racial or regional death deities are like Kelemvor but in their own plane rather that in the Fugue Plane. For example, if a halfling that worships a Child of Yondalla (or Yondalla herself), he'll probably go to the Fugue Plane, Kelemvor will see that he is not false or faithless, and the halfling's soul will wait for an outsider from the Green Fields ,probably an angel, but it would be good to assume that this outsider has some relation to Urogalan. Then, after this outsider has carried this soul to the Green Fields, Urogalan will judge this halfling's as how is the best way to make him useful as a petitioner in the Green Fields.
The Ubbergeek 05-02-07, 10:39 AM	In a way, he is as much a custom officier as a judge. ;)
BrennonGoldeye 05-02-07, 10:58 AM	In a way, he is as much a custom officier as a judge. ;) Spot on.:D
GothicDan 05-02-07, 01:49 PM	In no passage that I can think of is the Fugue Plane, the idea of the False and the Faithless, etc., and the fact that Kelemvor administrates such things, restricted specifically to the Faerunian pantheon. It's always been interpreted, as far as I know, that Kelemvor is the judge of the dead for ALL races. And that's one of the many, many things I dislike about the ToT and Kelemvor. The idea of an actual 'judge' in any way actively deciding where you go when you die is pretty uncommon in most of the polytheistic religions I know of (Egyptian being a notable exception). You just went wherever your 'karma' (not in the specific Vedic sense of the word) got you, dependent upon the morals of a given culture. This was reflected better in the Great Wheel cosmology, in my not so humble opinion.
The Ubbergeek 05-02-07, 02:11 PM	Sorry, but you don't seems to have heard of Yama/Yan Wang/Enma Daioh, then. He is the judge in the same way that some gods are worshiped by more than one races, i say - a special agent, trusted by AO and other pantheons. AO rules above EVERY pantheon, so he have the final word (well, AO is not that anthropomorphic - he IS Toril and everythign around). The Time of Trouble had that good side to put (well, to bring to the spot again) a neutral mediator above everything. And again, he is more a customs agent than the judge. The other pantheons have the controls on their followers still. ;)
GothicDan 05-02-07, 02:34 PM	Sorry, but you don't seems to have heard of Yama/Yan Wang/Enma Daioh, then. I haven't, except for Yama. But we're talking largely about Faerun, aren't we? Trying to draw comparisons between real life Asian religious beliefs and Faerunian ones (predominantly European in archetype, if anything) won't get us very far. And notice how I did specifically say that it was uncommon, and even pointed out an exception myself... But that exception, Egypt, would obviously only apply to Mulhorand and related states in the Old Empires. And even in the case of Yama, it doesn't seem to be so much his decision as to who goes where upon their death, as much as he's carrying out the role ofdispenser of Karma (sending them to the appropriate hell). This could just as easily be analogous to the archetypal Ferryman escorting the souls of the dead to the appropriate 'hell' (Acheron, Baator, the Abyss, etc.) in the old cosmological setup. He is the judge in the same way that some gods are worshiped by more than one races, i say - a special agent, trusted by AO and other pantheons. That's completely different. Typically, non-humans only worship deities of other races when that deity was preeminent upon their arrival in Realmspace (Mystra, Shar, Selune), when they're lacking a deity of similar portfolios in their own pantheon, when there's explicit divine interaction between the two pantheons (Mielikki, Gond), or when a given non-human is raised among humans. Kelemvor's a newly raised deity altogether, younger than even an Elven maiden, the non-humans almost all already have death deities, and there's been no time for Kelemvor to establish enough rapport with the other pantheons for them to trust the souls of all of their potential worships to him (he's only VERY RECENTLY been made a deity). And the difference here is that even with those primordial deities who have non-human worshippers, they have absolutely no direct power over the populations at large that fall within another pantheon's sphere of influence. For instance, just because Shar is darkness and night personified, doesn't mean that she can directly exert full power over things that happen in darkness everywhere (especially not in the domains of deities like Lolth or Set). This is why pantheonic boundaries are present. AO rules above EVERY pantheon, so he have the final word (well, AO is not that anthropomorphic - he IS Toril and everythign around). He does. But nowhere does it say that Kelemvor is carrying out AO's mandate. After all, Myrkul, Jergal, and Cyric before both ruled in remarkably different fashions, and AO never explicitely removed them from office. The Time of Trouble had that good side to put (well, to bring to the spot again) a neutral mediator above everything. That's only good if a given pantheon's theme or style would indicate a logical neutral mediator above everything - which none of the non-human ones do, and the Faerunian one did not prior to the ToT. Ed has said specifically that truths of fate and destiny do not exist in the Realms, and this wouldn't make much sense if there was a true Overgod with ultimate control over everything. And again, he is more a customs agent than the judge. The other pantheons have the controls on their followers still. And what about pantheons who which to promote freedom of religious choice among their followers? The Norse deities (the Aesir and Vanir), for instance, were hardly every directly worshipped as we would define it today. They were respected more like super-powerful heroes and villains with greater experience and knowledge (usually), and were invoked by mortals. But it didn't matter if someone actually any of them upon their death. Odin didn't say 'You go to Helheim!' All that mattered was that a person live a glorious life, and they would thus reap the benefits in the afterlife. The setting of the afterlife, how one gets there, the way deities rule over and arbitrate the souls of the dead, and the like, are some of the most defining aspects of a culture. It dilutes each of those cultures' beliefs, making them seem largely 'wrong,' if Kelemvor is able to impose his own rulings upon the spirits of ALL who die, regardless of their culture.
The Ubbergeek 05-02-07, 05:16 PM	Note that Kelemvor have NO rules to gives to mortals in general, outside of his clergy, really. His role is to triage the souls, along how they acted in their life, and what was their qualities and belives - and religions. He have zero say in all of this. Again, he is a custom agent and a dispasionate functionary. The gods are to be respected, it's all. It always was like that, it's how it should be.
GothicDan 05-02-07, 05:31 PM	Note that Kelemvor have NO rules to gives to mortals in general, outside of his clergy, really. His role is to triage the souls, along how they acted in their life, and what was their qualities and belives - and religions. He have zero say in all of this. Again, he is a custom agent and a dispasionate functionary. That's the role he has taken onto himself, not one that the other pantheons agreed on. If anything, a more appropriate deity for that function would have been Sehanine or Osiris, both of which are infinitely more experienced, the latter having much of the same outlook on the afterlife as Kelemvor himself (and more appropriately labeled as LG), and the former also being a patron of journeys (such as the one into the afterlife). It's obvious that Kelemvor is taking no orders or following no cosmic mandates, because Myrkul and Cyric before him were completely different. They did not claim that they were just 'carrying out the natural order of things.' They admitted that they were doing what THEY wanted to do. There's also the issue of undead. Kelemvor's clergy is encouraged to slay undead. If Sehanine thinks it's alright for Baelnorn to exist, the Elven goddess of death, then what right does Kelemvor have slaying them? The gods are to be respected, it's all. It always was like that, it's how it should be. Whose point of view are you talking about? When is 'always,' and can you cite specific examples? WHERE was always? In the Realms, or the real world? And why should it be like that? According to whom?
Gray Richardson 05-03-07, 12:18 AM	I have a slightly different take. When you die you have no "race". All souls are petitioners. Just petitioners. There are no subtypes of petitioners on the Fugue Plane. If a soul was human or dwarf or kobold in life, he is not that in death. For instance, if a kobold worshiped Corellon Larethian as his patron, then when he dies and is taken to Arvandor, his petitioner form becomes elf-shaped on arrival in Arvandor. Souls taken to Dragon Eyrie become draconic, and souls taken to the Barrens of Doom & Despair become worm-shaped. But everyone in the Fugue Plane is just a generic petitioner. In that sense, there are no gods of "races" in Faerūn, what you are really talking about is "cultures". An elf can worship human gods (though this is rare) and a human can worship elf gods. Race has little to do with it except as a marker for cultural identity. Now as for Kelemvor, he is the steward of the Fugue Plane. He watches over it. He protects it. He keeps the place a neutral ground for all the assembled dead to be picked up by their patrons. He is more of the station master at a train-station, a place where people pass through on their way to their final destination. He is the receptionist in the lobby, sending people back for their appointments. Kelemvor does not judge anyone except those who have no patron, or who are rejected by their patrons, and his own petitioners, of course. He judges the loiterers and the malingerers that hang around the Fugue without purpose. He judges the lost and the abandoned. He keeps the place orderly and clean and above all is responsible for maintaining a neutral and safe waiting ground for all the gods to come and pick up their alloted souls. It would be better to call Kelemvor the guardian of the dead. He safeguards the souls until their patrons can claim them. This is a very important job. You don't want gods warring in the Fugue, or snatching up souls that don't belong to them, or killing off petitioners of rival gods. In so much as there would appear to be only one Fugue Plane, and all dead souls go to it (presumably even from the other planets in Realmspace) then Kelemvor would seem to have a very important role indeed. However, if a soul has a patron, Kelemvor pretty much cannot touch him. The soul is judged by the "death god" of the pantheon he worshiped (or to which his patron belonged) if that pantheon has a god who is assigned such a role. If not, the soul answers only to his own patron.
The Ubbergeek 05-03-07, 04:19 PM	I like your interpretation a lot. It explains much.
Xamo'das 05-07-07, 06:10 PM	In no passage that I can think of is the Fugue Plane, the idea of the False and the Faithless, etc., and the fact that Kelemvor administrates such things, restricted specifically to the Faerunian pantheon. It's always been interpreted, as far as I know, that Kelemvor is the judge of the dead for ALL races. There is actually a note in the FRCS about Kelemvor only/mostly judging humanoid souls. Human (and humanoid) souls who refuse the gods come to a bad end after death, lacking a deity to speak for them upon the Fugue Plane.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 12:41 AM	That's a really weird place to draw a line (humanoids). Humanoid is a purely physical descriptor... Why should that matter in spiritual matters?
Stigger 05-09-07, 03:48 AM	Think its a 'Why would a human deity have oversight over the dead of all races if there isn't a unified pantheon?' sort of thing... as in why in the hell would Gruumsh trust a human deity to properly sort out his orcs sort of thing... yet another humanocentric tidbit that needs excising from the lore.
Zanan 05-09-07, 03:54 AM	On a sidenote, not just deities claim souls, demon and devil lords too. But that has not much to do with Myrkul's / Kelemvor's judgement et al.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 06:36 AM	Think its a 'Why would a human deity have oversight over the dead of all races if there isn't a unified pantheon?' sort of thing... as in why in the hell would Gruumsh trust a human deity to properly sort out his orcs sort of thing... yet another humanocentric tidbit that needs excising from the lore. Which, oddly enough, was not at all present in 1E. They added that bit in with the whole ToT fiasco.
Stigger 05-09-07, 09:10 AM	2e was kinda a lovefest for humans really... lots of it ticked me off in a large way really, even if it was more interesting in some respects (not the humanocentric part).
Zanan 05-09-07, 10:44 AM	2e was kinda a lovefest for humans really... lots of it ticked me off in a large way really, even if it was more interesting in some respects (not the humanocentric part). You did notice that in 3E the first player race that appears in the PHB was, going by the alphabet just like the rest, the humans. :blink: Extra feat and skill points at first level etc. ... yeah, one might claim things have become better. :thinks:
The Ubbergeek 05-09-07, 01:48 PM	Which, oddly enough, was not at all present in 1E. They added that bit in with the whole ToT fiasco. I think we should stop to see the Faerunian patheon as human only and see it as a general block of gods. Kind of like Greyhawk, really - if you look at some general GH gods (the human pantheons), like some FR ones, they where like, MADE to be crossracial since the very first. Elhonna, by example. (Gygax said as much, I think, and Greenwood commented once on that subject) It had been argued that the racial pantheons had been tackled on later, and FR added them as much - both original GH and FR worlds may had been planned as the nonhuman worship faerunian and the 4 culture pantheons like humans, only that they have their own preferences in the lot. Maybe in a way, the racial pantheons are a bit reducdant... Maybe it is right then that kelemvor overview all souls - he was in fact a return to an old vision, which that Greenwood-stuff-only grognards should ascribes to? ;) And then, Dragonlance already did this since the beginning too.
Faraer 05-09-07, 03:33 PM	In both the World of Greyhawk and the Realms, nonhuman worship was originally a mysterious NPC thing (and it largely remains so in my campaigns). Ed adopted the nonhuman gods in Deities & Demigods and then Roger Moore's development of the pantheons in Dragon. Gary Gygax equivocally accepted them in print but I don't think he used them himself, instead keeping Ulaa for dwarves and gnomes, Ehlonna for elves, as well as possible undetailed 'secret' demihuman gods. I don't think the idea was ever that Evermeet's elves worship the Faerūnian pantheon, but it was and is widely worshipped by demihumans integrated into the general, mostly human, society, which is the majority of those encountered by adventurers. * If anyone wonders, the reason why I usually write out World of Greyhawk rather than just 'Greyhawk' is that the world is not called Greyhawk -- the term means 'the world of which the City of Greyhawk is a part' in an out-of-world conceit playing to the recognizability of Gary's Greyhawk Campaign.
Stigger 05-09-07, 06:08 PM	You did notice that in 3E the first player race that appears in the PHB was, going by the alphabet just like the rest, the humans. :blink: Extra feat and skill points at first level etc. ... yeah, one might claim things have become better. :thinks: Yeah, I did notice that. Its not gone yet, but its improving little by little at least.... its a start, and I believe in starts. ;)
GothicDan 05-09-07, 06:46 PM	I think we should stop to see the Faerunian patheon as human only and see it as a general block of gods. Why? That's boring. Even the Faerunian pantheon itself is an amalgamation of a number of cultural pantheons that have shifted over the millennia. By tying all sentient beings to a single pantheon, it loses any sense of dynamism at all, and detracts from the mystery nature of divinity. There are a precious few "truths" we have about the deities of Realmspace (Chauntea IS Abeir-Toril, Mystra IS the Weave), and that's largely what makes those exceptions so special. Dragonlance did that, and while I liked it, I do not want Dragonlance's design methodology in the Realms. And even for DL, I've always assumed that what we saw in print of the pantheon was hardly all that existed in the back of its creators' minds.
The Ubbergeek 05-09-07, 08:10 PM	And Kelemvor is the tran station guichetier of the dead ones. ;) It is not really as much or less boring as to make 15,000 pantheons for each races. *shrugs* And it don't removes the mystery of divinity - it just say, those are the gods here, and they listen to everyone.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 08:57 PM	And Kelemvor is the tran station guichetier of the dead ones. No, in canon he's only for the HUMANOIDS, for some reason, which makes even less sense than before. It is not really as much or less boring as to make 15,000 pantheons for each races. *shrugs* And it don't removes the mystery of divinity - it just say, those are the gods here, and they listen to everyone. You mean, one rough pantheon for each culture, and showing the interactions between them? I'm sorry you find religious studies and mythology so boring. I find them absolutely fascinating, particularly in watching how religious transformations can help track historical events and cultural interactions.
MarkusTay63 05-11-07, 05:42 PM	I have a slightly different take. When you die you have no "race". All souls are petitioners. Just petitioners. There are no subtypes of petitioners on the Fugue Plane.Thats very.... SPIRITUAL. :D I like that a lot. So a bright beautiful 'shiney' soul could belong to a worshipper of Eilistraee, and the dirty, oily, 'dark' soul could belong to a Gold Elf 'gone bad'. I soul should reflect a person's INNER beauty or ugliness; what they 'looked like' in life shouldn't be relevent or evident in the afterlife. Thats a great concept, and I like it a lot, but unfortunately it doesn't really fit with what we have read in novels (and Planescape sources). Maybe another rule we can add to the collection for 4.0. ;)
Gray Richardson 05-11-07, 08:46 PM	Actually, that pretty much IS the rule, see p.199-200 of Manual of the Planes, also see the petitioners entries for each of the planes in the Players Guide to Faerūn. Souls on the Fugue Plane have no race, they are all just petitioners. Petitioners that are taken to other planes are transformed into the base petitioner type appropriate to that plane. Petitioners taken to Arvandor take the shape of handsome elves no matter what race they were in life (but they are not elves, they are still petitioners). And petitioners taken to Dwarfhome appear as sturdy dwarves, even those that were humans or elves or even goblins in their mortal life (but despite their looks, they are not dwarves, they are still petitioners). Petitioners have no race (other than petitioner), although they may have a cultural identity. But since they forget most everything they new in life when they die, it's difficult to say how much they even identify with the culture in which they lived in their terrestrial life.
Derren S. 05-13-07, 12:07 PM	I have a slightly different take. When you die you have no "race". All souls are petitioners. Just petitioners. There are no subtypes of petitioners on the Fugue Plane. That is wrong. For example the Dragon Aerie is reserved for draconic petitioners and Jotuheim is reserved for giants. No exception. You see, the dead do keep their race.
Gray Richardson 05-13-07, 05:00 PM	I think you are mistaken or have misunderstood the text of the Players Guide to Faerūn. No where does it say "no exceptions". As for "draconic petitioners", any one who had a draconic deity as a patron in their mortal life is a draconic petitioner, no matter what race they were in life, humans and demi-humans included. As for Jotunheim, I could see where a very narrow reading of that passage "the petitioners of Jotunheim were all giants in life, and they retain their mortal forms here" could lead you to believe that Jotunheim is reserved exclusively for giants. But yet again, nowhere does it say there are no exceptions. I think one may infer from that sentence that it is extremely rare for anyone other than giants to take giant deities as their patrons, and so one practically never finds any petitioners of Jotunheim that were any other race in life but giants. However, the fact remains according to the rules as written, that if a human or an elf or an orc or even a dwarf were to take a giant god as his patron, when he died his soul would go to Jotunheim. Now, how the giant gods reconcile that I don't know exactly. Maybe they simply acknowledge that any being who has accepted a giant god as patron must actually be a giant, a giant trapped in an elf's or dwarf's body maybe, or be "born again" as a giant, maybe as an honorary giant or a giant at heart. When they go to Jotunheim their giant patron might reward them with a body of a stature more commensurate with the giant they are the inside, or they may simply remain the size they were in life and leave it at that. I reiterate that, according to the rules as written, when people die, they become petitioners. A petitioner is an outsider and it has no race other than petitioner. They have no DNA (one would think) so there is nothing biological to define them as a member of a mortal race. Ergo, dead souls in the Fugue Plane have no race.
Derren S. 05-13-07, 05:57 PM	I think you are mistaken or have misunderstood the text of the Players Guide to Faerūn. No where does it say "no exceptions". Every other plane says that there are exceptions (Arvandor&Dwarfhome for examples). And as Jotunheim and the Arie doesn't say that "nearly all" petitioners were once draconic/giants but that all petitioners were it, meaning that there are no exceptions. Think about it, the church of tiamat consists out of many non draconic followers in Unther and by your reasoning they should end up in the Arie, yet there is no mentioning of them. And who says that a god has to accept all worshippers? A human worshipping a giant deity? Though luck, thats an exclusive club and you are not invited. Back to the wall with you. Do Petitioners, according to the emplate loose their natural weapons and armor? No? Then this means that they keep their original form and with it their racial identity. A great Gold Dragon worshipping Lathander will, after becoming a petitioner, maybe end up where Lathander resides but it would still be a collosal dragon with +40 natural armor ,6 attacks per round and a huge strength. Or the dragons soul would be redirected to the Arie because thats where its soul is supposed to be no matter who the dragon worshipped in life and the draconic deity which is the most similliar to Lathander will take care of it. Or the draconic pantheon has its own rules how souls are "processed". But a human ending up in the Aerie or Jotuheim? Never. Humans are a special case as they are the only race without a racial pantheon, so the only gods who are interested in them are gods of ideals. The souls of other races end up with their racial deities (or in extreme cases they also go to the "ideal" gods if there is no corresponding deity in the racial pantheon.)
Gray Richardson 05-13-07, 07:41 PM	Jotunheim and the Arie doesn't say that "nearly all" petitioners were once draconic/giants but that all petitioners were it, meaning that there are no exceptions.You are misquoting the book. With regards to Dragon Eyrie the book says "Most of the native inhabitants of Dragon Eyrie are celestial and fiendish dragons and draconic petitioners." Please note the word "Most". Secondly, a "draconic petitioner" is not defined as a soul that was draconic in life. For indeed a dragon may take any god it likes as its patron deity, including Cyric, Mystra, Tyr, etc. and thus will go to the appropriate plane of its patron god at its death. No, a draconic petitioner is any being that takes a dragon god as patron. So yes, souls that go to Dragon Eyrie are draconic petitioners, but they may have been any race in life. However, they do tend to have been dragons and draconic creatures in life, so the overwhelming majority of draconic petitioners in Dragon Eyrie will have been dragons or dragonkin in their mortal lives... but not all. As for Jotunheim, the text doesn't ever say "no exceptions". It is a logical fallacy to infer that there are no exceptions just because no exceptions are mentioned.Think about it, the church of tiamat consists out of many non draconic followers in Unther and by your reasoning they should end up in the Arie, yet there is no mentioning of them.Yes, they are not mentioned, but the deceased souls of Tiamat's human worshipers do (now) go to her realm in Dragon Eyrie. Many of her formerly human petitioners are "promoted" to abishai. Up until recently, most of Tiamat's human worshipers were conveyed to her Realm in Zigguraxus, the dying plane of the Untheric pantheon. However, in anticipation of that plane's imminent death, Tiamat moved that realm not too long ago to the still vital plane of Dragon Eyrie, where she consolidated her holdings. Back in the plane of Zigguraxas there is nothing but a big empty hole of utter darkness there where her realm used to be. Though it is rumored that a trapped portal lies at the center of that void that links to Dragon Eyrie (See Tom Costa's Prestige in the Realms (http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/PrestigeintheRealms.pdf.zip) for more information.)And who says that a god has to accept all worshippers?Well, Ao could say. There may be rules under which circumstances a god may refuse patronship of an individual. But according to Ed Greenwood a being can worship any god he chooses. I suppose that on the off chance that a patron did refuse to show up on the Fugue and claim a petitioner, then that petitioner would be called to Kelemvor's realm and be judged false (not faithless, because he had a faith, but false because his god rejected him). The false are meted a punishment commensurate with what Kelemvor determines just for the degree of betrayal they engaged in. If a being was faithful enough to his god but still rejected, I imagine the punishment would be light or nominal. The soul would just stay in Kelemvor's city doing light work for Kelemvor and his crew.A human worshipping a giant deity? Though luck, thats an exclusive club and you are not invited.How do you figure? Is there some place in canon it says that a giant god would not accept a human worshiper? What about half-giants? Quarter-giants? One-eighth-giants? Humans raised in Hartsvale? Adopted children of giants? I don't see how you could think a giant would refuse any mortal worship. Gods get power from worship. They crave worship. Actually, I am not sure they can refuse worship at all. Even if they don't like it, I can't see how they can stop a mortal from praying to them. They can refuse to answer, but aside from sending plagues or dreams or omens and trying to dissuade worship I don't think they can stop such prayers.Do Petitioners, according to the emplate loose their natural weapons and armor? No? Then this means that they keep their original form and with it their racial identity.You are mistaken. No argument that petitioners on the Fugue Plane keep a semblance of the form they had in life, but form does not equal race. Does a doppelganger become an elf when it changes its shape into an elf? Does a dragon change its race when it polymorphs into a dwarf? The answer is no. Because shape does not define race. A petitioner may have the form that is typical of a terrestrial "race" but a petitioner's only race is "petitioner".A great Gold Dragon worshipping Lathander will, after becoming a petitioner, maybe end up where Lathander resides but it would still be a collosal dragon with +40 natural armor ,6 attacks per round and a huge strength.You are correct on this point. You would apply the base petitioner template from Manual of the Planes to the dragon and then you would apply the special qualities from the House of Nature section of PGtF to get your stats.Or the dragons soul would be redirected to the Arie because thats where its soul is supposed to be no matter who the dragon worshipped in life and the draconic deity which is the most similliar to Lathander will take care of it.That's not what the rules say, but it could certainly be a fun alternative to implement in your own Realms. And I'll not say never, because we recently learned of a prominent human wizard, a chosen of Mystra, who was recently deceased but ended up having his soul diverted to Arvandor by a certain elven goddess because that is where his allegiance truly rested. Presumably his petitioner shape is now that of an elf, even though he was a human in life.Humans are a special case as they are the only race without a racial pantheonI think you are mistaken on this point too. The Mulhorandi pantheon is a racial pantheon for humans. The Maztican pantheon is a racial pantheon for humans. The Untheric pantheon was a racial pantheon for humans until the pantheon went defunct. Even the Faerūnian pantheon is a melange of human proto-pantheons mixed with some gods who are multi-pantheonic or trans-pantheonic or formerly from other racial pantheons.The souls of other races end up with their racial deities (or in extreme cases they also go to the "ideal" gods if there is no corresponding deity in the racial pantheon.)Not true. We already know that a being of any race can worship a god of any pantheon, and that the being goes to his patron god's afterlife no matter what his race was in life. Most beings on Toril tend to worship the gods of their own race. But this is only a tendency, not an absolute, and it does not give a racial god or pantheon any special claim on a soul once that being is deceased. The only god (or his agents) than can claim the soul from the Fugue Plane is the god that the soul claimed as his patron deity in his mortal life.
Zsych 05-16-07, 03:20 PM	@Gray Richarson: I wonder, if Corellon would allow a former non-elf into Arvandor. I think the elven pride might not just be limited to the elves themselves. The souls of his kids/creations, might well seem to Corellon to be more worthy worshippers than those of other races(plus it may be that a soul manifests in a body, according to its own nature, and a soul that manifested in a kobold, no matter what it desires, would never take on the characteristics within that an elf appreciates)
GothicDan 05-16-07, 03:37 PM	A certain mostly-human archmage who is recently deceased went to Arvandor. :)
Zsych 05-16-07, 04:01 PM	A kobold is still going too far :) (I can imagine someone saying: I'm really an elf trapped in a human body... :P) ... Wonder if Corellon will have the original elves humor the human some, while trying to get rid of him. Not out of malice really, but I think that Corellon must have some high and mighty tendencies too.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 05:00 PM	I don't think so. He's CG, not LG!
Zsych 05-16-07, 05:19 PM	Which means he might take more direct action, than well prepared action :) ... tends to depend on what you believe is evil :) ... though I suppose he could be a goodie goodie. Wonder what other elven spirits would think of these fakes. (Just going by the attitude towards half-elves(even by... Evermeet's Queen), their reaction just can't be good)
The Ubbergeek 05-17-07, 03:18 AM	Petitioners, like the planes, ARE believes - who is the less elf in this case? An human who follow the ideals of the elves truthfully and passionatly, or an elf who is basicaly accultures and joined the humans in their koine, believe the same things as them? Also, the clergies and the gods are two closely linked yet different things.... A case shown in the past of Dragonlance... ishtar....
Zsych 05-18-07, 06:11 AM	I think that a human who learned to act like an elf or apparently think like an elf, would actually just be simulating elven behavior on the basis of his knowledge. I don't think you can have actual elven thoughts and emotions without an elven brain. Its kinda like the issue of creating a computer mind good enough to completely mimic human action to the point that you can't tell from its actions whether its human or not. Whether or not you can tell externally, the heart wouldn't really be the same. ... I think I'm argueing unecessarily. If souls get to their respective gods' homes and other souls don't descriminate against their sources, then that's fine with me.
Razz 05-18-07, 11:56 PM	Wait...what the hell? Khelben Blackstaff's dead?! :confused:
Razz 05-19-07, 12:15 AM	Crap, just did some research and found out. I think I am going to stop reading Realms novels from now on. They're getting over-the-top now and completely ridiculous.
Zireael 05-21-07, 07:23 AM	I have a question. The dead keep their race... and could the dead changed into a demon retain his soul, memories and so on?
GothicDan 05-21-07, 07:59 AM	I really think Khelben's death is hardly a reason to stop reading Realms novels. There's many reasons to do so, but novels penned by the likes of Schend (and Greenwood, Cunningham, etc.) certainly shouldn't be on the list. Schend's been working with Khelben for years now, all fully with Ed's support. If anyone should have been the one to end his career, it was he.
Charles Phipps 01-29-08, 08:40 PM	For me, Corellon and Lathander are both pretty close in their attitudes. They're ultra hippie laid back gods interested primarily in sex, music, and relaxing in the Sun. They just :censored: hate evil and have the weirdest collections of ultra-conservative followers for no apparent reason. And for me, I just like that Chauntaea is the World, Mystra is the Weave, and Kel is the Judge of all Dead. All other Racial Death Lords answer to him.