Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Bookkeeper 09-20-07, 08:21 AM	Lookie! A thread about A Grand History of the Realms that isn't a rant! As we progress to the future years at the end of the book, we get to the squabble between Tyr and Helm. The book describes this as resulting in a sundering of the Triad. Now, AFAIK, the Triad had always been Tyr, Ilmater...and Torm. Why is a fight between Tyr and Helm threatening to the Triad? Did I miss a personnel shuffle in the offices of Lawful & Good? What gives?
customdrapery 09-20-07, 09:18 AM	I have my copy of the Grand History, but I've been reading it straight through, so I haven't read the part where Tyr takes out Helm yet. But as I see it, yes there are three in the Triad, Tyr, Ilmater and Torm. However, if a split in the Triad appears it is probably due to Torm's friendship with Helm. I'm still leery of the fact that a LG god would take out a LN one...but that's just me.
Chloramantis 09-20-07, 11:28 AM	The Triad IS Tyr, Ilmater, and Torm. Torm and Helm are close friends, and Helm is not a member of the Triad. The Tyr/Tymora/Helm love triangle causes Ilmater to abandon Tyr. I guess Ilmater doesn't agree with his master killing Helm, who was just minding his own business.
Lord Karsus 09-20-07, 01:09 PM	-You notice how none of poor Helm's relationships don't work out?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-20-07, 01:34 PM	-You notice how none of poor Helm's relationships don't work out? Yes. It sucks.
Meldread 09-20-07, 01:50 PM	Yeah, I noticed that too and thought the same thing. Then again, I always imagined Helm wearing a chastity belt. :P He can't be distracted by love or emotion. Or anything.
Valten 09-20-07, 01:55 PM	I wonder which block Torm joins, unless he sticks it out with Tyr? Dynamic duo? Hoar/Assuran for new LN superpower!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-20-07, 04:21 PM	Yeah, I noticed that too and thought the same thing. Then again, I always imagined Helm wearing a chastity belt. :P He can't be distracted by love or emotion. Or anything. Oh, he's had lovers...I don't think he's emotionless.
Suin Bahhar 09-20-07, 05:28 PM	Didn't the clergies of Helm and Torm have (silent) disagreements and strife these last few years?
Lord Karsus 09-20-07, 07:05 PM	Yeah, I noticed that too and thought the same thing. -Apparently not. Ol' Helm is quite the catch, apparently. Unfortunatley, all of his girls, well, die. :embarrass
Old Sage 09-20-07, 08:06 PM	Yeah, I noticed that too and thought the same thing. Then again, I always imagined Helm wearing a chastity belt. :P He can't be distracted by love or emotion. Or anything.Helm's had his share of lovers -- Murdane and Mystra I for example.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-20-07, 08:13 PM	Didn't the clergies of Helm and Torm have (silent) disagreements and strife these last few years? Yes, but the two gods are friends.
Meldread 09-20-07, 08:59 PM	Helm's had his share of lovers -- Murdane and Mystra I for example. Oh, I know that. Murdane died during Lathander's first Dawn Cataclysm, but I've never really envisioned Helm as much of a ladies man. He's always just been a hardcore guardian, too focused on his work for love, or anything else that would distract him from his duties. Good and were evil irrelevant to him in so far as they could both be potentially threatening to whatever task he was assigned to... That is how I envision(ed) Helm and always played him. Any of his "relationships" he would have with a female would only serve a purpose to further his goals - most likely political goals among the gods. They would also most likely be arranged, and I always imagined them to be somewhat stand-offish and distant.
GothicDan 09-21-07, 01:38 AM	We can historically witness the efficiency of soldiers and guardians, when allowed proper unwinding time, in groups such as the Spartans and the Sacred Band of Thebes. It's ultimately one's love for something that truly makes you devoted to supporting it.
Meldread 09-21-07, 03:57 AM	It's ultimately one's love for something that truly makes you devoted to supporting it. That's exactly why I view Helm the way I do. He loves his job so much, he really doesn't have time for someone else. He doesn't get time to "unwind" being a deity - he's constantly busy as all gods are - and when combined with his love for his job... I simply never could picture him spending time to romance anyone. Of course, the one thing I always hated about Helm was that he was named after an inanimate object. You would think being a God he would insist on a more interesting name. What's more it doesn't even fit. He's more of a Shield than a Helm. :P Poor bastard. He went out over a woman that distracted him from his duties and died still carrying a name that made him sound silly. No respect. None. :P
GothicDan 09-21-07, 07:48 AM	My last name is an inanimate object in German. I hardly think it's silly.
Lord Karsus 09-21-07, 10:57 AM	-I do.
ShadezofDis 09-21-07, 11:13 AM	My last name is an inanimate object in German. I hardly think it's silly. -I do. Oh oh oh, fight fight! :duel: ;)
Lord Karsus 09-21-07, 11:18 AM	-Oh, we don't actually fight. And, I don't even know what inanimate object Dan is talking about, nor do I know very much of the German language.
ShadezofDis 09-21-07, 11:20 AM	-Oh, we don't actually fight. And, I don't even know what inanimate object Dan is talking about, nor do I know very much of the German language. Oh I know that, I was just being silly. I'm good like that. ;)
GothicDan 09-21-07, 11:31 AM	I'll tell you over PM, LK. That being said, I'd wager the majority of peoples' last names, and many first names, have linguistic roots in object name's. Proper nouns really had no meaning in the early days of writing.
Meldread 09-21-07, 03:10 PM	There is a difference between say, calling him Anselm over Helm. Anselm which also has Germanic roots means "god" and "helmet/protection". Anselm is a cool name. Helm is not. :P (Of course, I have the same problem with the names Tempus and Red Knight. It's a personal preference thing.)
GothicDan 09-21-07, 10:44 PM	Sigh, more individual preference getting in the way of rational debate. ;) If you thought the name just SOUNDED dumb, then don't blame it on being an object!
Meldread 09-21-07, 11:13 PM	Yes, but that's WHY I think it's dumb. ;) Just as I think Red Knight's name is dumb because she's associated with a game piece. I also dislike Tempus name because it sounds too much like Tempest, so when I hear it I think of Talos. Tempus is also apparently a latin word meaning "time" - something not very fitting for him. Alternative names of Tempus: Ryder (meaning "mounted warrior") or Einar (meaning "one warrior"). Sure, a name like Helm might make a good nickname, but it's like naming your child Shovel. That might be a good nickname for a gravedigger, but who gives their child a name like that? :P
GothicDan 09-21-07, 11:16 PM	Wow, you didn't know Tempus meant Time? And I see it as very fitting - what is one constant throughout all of time? That being said, you just said you didn't mind Anselm, even though it has very concrete roots... And Ryder sounds exactly like Rider, and a rider is still not a proper noun. I don't think you're fully thinking out your arguments for disliking names before stating them, here. Is it the phonetic sound, the concrete meaning, or something else?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 09-21-07, 11:22 PM	Sure, a name like Helm might make a good nickname, but it's like naming your child Shovel. That might be a good nickname for a gravedigger, but who gives their child a name like that? :P I would.:)
GothicDan 09-21-07, 11:24 PM	I actually wanted to change my name to Ash for... About 5 years when I was younger. As in, the tree/burnt material.
Meldread 09-22-07, 01:11 AM	Ash isn't a bad sounding name, actually. I don't think you're fully thinking out your arguments for disliking names before stating them, here. Is it the phonetic sound, the concrete meaning, or something else? Well I guess it's because there is no concrete logic or meaning behind it. It's just a gut feeling - an emotional dislike. I liked Helm as a character and a personality, in fact he was one of my favorites, I just always hated his name. It never seemed to "fit." It's so mundane, unnoteworthy, and just... boring to look at. There is no uniqueness to it. Of course, I guess in that way it suited him. He never strove to be unique and never truly tried to appear more than what he really was - he simply was. I also like Set but hate his name, though not to the degree that I disliked Helm's name. Add Bane to that list as well. I like the name Cyric but hate the character. There really is no logic behind it. I tend to favor names that are unique and seem to "embody" the character. I also like names that do not tend to be over seven letters long, with four or five being the prefered length. I also dislike deities who have last names, as it makes them seem more like people. Although I am more forgiving if the deity was once a mortal at some point in their lives. A deity in my mind should be big - a single name that everyone knows - like Shar, Cyric, Selune, Mystra - when you say it an image of the deity instantly pops into your mind. Rinonalyrna- Please don't name your child Shovel. :P
Valten 09-22-07, 10:15 AM	Wasn't Bane born with a mortal name (heard Aldirk Shimblesark but I think it might have been a joke on candlekeep -_-'') but then maybe changed it to 'Bane' for something a little more primal. Guess Torm and Helm are just normal names as well since there are characters by that name.
Meldread 09-22-07, 12:34 PM	I would assume that he had a mortal name. It's hard to imagine a mother giving birth and then trying to decide a name for her child. Mother: "Hmm... Bob is overused, there are three Tom's in the village already, Charles is nice but it sounds too rich and I'm just a poor peasant woman. Hmmm... How about Bane? You don't think he'll turn out to be a psychopathic killer do you?" Husband: "No honey, Bane sounds wonderful. Isn't he adorable? My little Bane!" (There is much awing from those who gather around to see the newborn Bane.) No, but seriously I think he must have changed it. However, in picking the name he basically turned himself into a cartoon villain. "Ohh! Ohh! Look at me! I'm evvviilll! Just look at my name, it proves it!" :P Sorry, Bane but a name doesn't make you evil. Actions make you evil, and you hardly measure up on my evil meter. Slaughtering people and having a control-freak personality does not make you evil. It makes you a psychopath. :(
GothicDan 09-22-07, 12:48 PM	I'm really tired of people equating originality with reality. What Hitler did wasn't particularly original, and nor were his methods, besides technological advances. Even his title (The Leader) wasn't original. But it all sure as hell WORKED really well, and I think he's certainly the closest to a human perception of evil that most think of in the modern day and age.
Old Sage 09-22-07, 12:50 PM	Wasn't Bane born with a mortal name (heard Aldirk Shimblesark but I think it might have been a joke on candlekeep -_-'') but then maybe changed it to 'Bane' for something a little more primal.Ed, in Stormlight, suggested that Bane who used to be a mortal before he ascended to godhood, might have been born on another world, far different and far removed from Toril. We don't know much more than that about Bane's days as a mortal.
Straploknight 09-22-07, 07:01 PM	I have my copy of the Grand History, but I've been reading it straight through, so I haven't read the part where Tyr takes out Helm yet. But as I see it, yes there are three in the Triad, Tyr, Ilmater and Torm. However, if a split in the Triad appears it is probably due to Torm's friendship with Helm. I'm still leery of the fact that a LG god would take out a LN one...but that's just me. Lol, it falls under "guns dont kill people, husbands coming home from work early do"
Straploknight 09-22-07, 07:08 PM	I'm really tired of people equating originality with reality. What Hitler did wasn't particularly original, and nor were his methods, besides technological advances. Even his title (The Leader) wasn't original. But it all sure as hell WORKED really well, and I think he's certainly the closest to a human perception of evil that most think of in the modern day and age. I think the Burger King is evil, does that count too, and i have proof! http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b303/bossco/BurgerKing.gif
Straploknight 09-22-07, 07:14 PM	I actually wanted to change my name to Ash for... About 5 years when I was younger. As in, the tree/burnt material. Reminds me of Ash the crazy andriod, Hmmmm..... I rarely think of the burnt up material anymore when I hear Ash. Yet another childhood scar from watching Alien :eek:
Chloramantis 09-24-07, 10:02 AM	My last name is an inanimate object in German. I hardly think it's silly. Is the inanimate object something you can buy at mcDonalds?
msatran 09-24-07, 11:59 AM	Twitch... But seriously, this whole triad business rubs me raw. I actually felt sick reading that, like being Lawful Good didn't mean anything anymore. Lawful people talk with each other and reason out their differences. Their first solution to anything isn't "Ahh...we must fight."
Dark Wizard 09-24-07, 05:18 PM	Who ever said the name Helm actually meant the English 'helm,' couldn't it be some Realmsian language where Helm originally came from, or the people who adopted him the most when he ascended to godhood, or he was born into godhood and Helm holds some significance in the language of his divine parents. Come to think of it, when was the last time we heard of gods having godly offspring in the Realms outside of Shar/Selune -> Mystra, Chauntea, etc. or the few instances in the demihuman pantheons? Bane has Xvim, but he was more mortal than god and had to climb his way up to godhood (eventually that didn't work out too well for Xvim). Does this mean we'll have Tyrlings and Tymorettes in the New Realms?