So what're the Deep Caverns (Ghaunadaur)? [Archive] - Wizards Community

So what're the Deep Caverns (Ghaunadaur)? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
GreenKnight
01-24-08, 08:57 PM Ok, so after the fight with Lolth, Ghaunadaur leaves the Demonweb Pits and goes to the Deep Caverns. Sooo... what're the Deep Caverns. Where are they? Have they been mentioned before in Realmslore, or are they a new locale (I assume they exist in the Elemental Chaos, as Ghaunadaur appears to be a primordial, not a deity)?
Gray Richardson
01-24-08, 10:59 PM The Deep Caverns are an outer plane in the Great Tree cosmology. It is a plane where many underdark deities abide. You can find details in the Players Guide to Faerūn.

The three major gods that live there are Ilsensine, Great Mother, and Laogzed. I think you can also find Gzemnid here, and also I think Parrafaire may lair here, though I don't know that has been officially confirmed.

I would surmise that Ibrandul also had his divine realm of Ibrandyllaran in this plane before Shar killed him.

We are told that there are Kaorti living here, so the Deep Caverns may have some kind of tie to the Far Realms. Especially considering the information in Worlds & Monsters that the Beholders and Mind Flayers came from the Far Realms, there may be a portal or some other link that ties Deep Caverns to that alien realm outside the cosmos.
Lord Karsus
01-25-08, 09:42 AM Ok, so after the fight with Lolth, Ghaunadaur leaves the Demonweb Pits and goes to the Deep Caverns.

-An especially silly move, "in character", consdering that Ghaundadaur already has a divine realm in the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze.
Gray Richardson
01-25-08, 10:42 AM Petitioners might have been a motivating factor. If he wanted to take his petitioners with him, there might have been some limit that kept him from taking them beyond the outer planes.

Deep Caverns is also nearer to the Demonweb Pits than the plane of Ooze. So we might also surmise that there were some logistical reasons for choosing Deep Caverns over Ooze. Perhaps he only had the energy to move his realm so far.

Or Deep Caverns might have other attractive qualities that make it preferable. Perhaps he has allied with one or more of the gods there. Maybe Parrafaire is guarding a secret there that he can exploit against Lolth. Perhaps Tharizdun's prison is located in this plane and he is trying to make a connection with it. Or maybe Deep Caverns is ideally situated for him to keep a watchful eye on Lolth.

Then the other thing to consider is that maybe he just hates the plane of Ooze and had no strong inclination to go back there. I myself have lived a couple of places in my life that I would not want to move back to. ;)
Lord Karsus
01-25-08, 11:21 AM Deep Caverns is also nearer to the Demonweb Pits than the plane of Ooze. So we might also surmise that there were some logistical reasons for choosing Deep Caverns over Ooze. Perhaps he only had the energy to move his realm so far.

-Much like Eilistraee mantains (or, maintained, depending on her fate), Ghaunadaur too seems to have maintained two different Divine Realms.

Then the other thing to consider is that maybe he just hates the plane of Ooze and had no strong inclination to go back there. I myself have lived a couple of places in my life that I would not want to move back to. ;)

-Now, why would the Ooze deity hate ooze? :P
MarkusTay63
01-25-08, 11:48 AM Competition? ;)
Lord Karsus
01-25-08, 11:56 AM Competition? ;)

-Not really. The two major beings in the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze are Bwimb Il and The Warlock of Ooze. Bwimb Il has a big head, but in the grand scheme of the multiverse, she isn't that powerful. The Warlock of Ooze is only a 14th level Mage from Krynn. Neither measure up to that which Ghaunadaur is.
Kenzuki
01-25-08, 05:36 PM Didn't Ghaunadaur eat Juiblex or something too?
Lord Karsus
01-25-08, 05:43 PM Didn't Ghaunadaur eat Juiblex or something too?

-In Realmspace, Ghaunadaur has assumed the names of both Jubliex and the Elder Elemental G-d. Jubilex occasionally lashs out at Ghaunadaur for doing this, but he still hasn't beat the Big G, and gotten his "good" name back. The Elder Elemental G-d doen't seem to mind, or at least hasn't lashed out at Ghaunadaur.
Old Sage
01-25-08, 06:22 PM From Demihuman Deities:- "Although Ghaunadaur is a distinct entity unrelated to the tanar'ri lord Juiblex, the Faceless Lord, or the otherwise unnamed Elder Elemental God neither of the latter two powers is active in the Realms, and Ghaunadaur has assumed both of their aspects within the crystal sphere of Realmspace."

Read the claim about the Elder Elemental God in light of the fact that much of Ghaunadaur's writeup is taken directly from descriptions of the EEG, which is itself distinct from Juiblex.

Juiblex is a Demon Lord in the D&D core rules. In the Realms, he had some worshipers in 2e's Thay IIRC. When Demihuman Deities, and the other god books, were being worked on there was some desire to tidy up some of the gods, thus Juiblex became an aspect of Ghaunadaur in the Realms. Similar things happened to the 2e god of liches in Monster Mythology becoming an aspect of Velsharoon and Sseth garnering many different aspects.
Gray Richardson
01-25-08, 06:56 PM Now, why would the Ooze deity hate ooze? :PSounds weird, I know, but I think actually plausible. He might have come to view the Plane of Ooze as boring, or parochial, or "away from the action". He might have come to loathe and despise the other creatures and individuals who reside there, he may no longer be able to abide them. He might have been hanging out with the Drow so long that he now views Oooze as uncool. He might hate the way the terrain squishes between his toes. ;)

But I don't think there has to be a logical reason why Ghaunadaur might have come to hate the Plane of Ooze. Never underestimate Ghaunadaur's capacity to hate. :coolcthul
Vulpes
01-26-08, 01:52 AM Well, this is the deity who, in a fit of pique, stripped sentience from his ooze and slime worshipers in the mists of time, thus destroying his own power base until he hooked up with Lolth later. Not exactly a rational kind of deity. *LOL* Anyway, did the paraelemental and quasielemental planes even exist in 3rd Edition? He couldn't very well go to a realm that didn't exist.
Lord Karsus
01-26-08, 08:27 AM Anyway, did the paraelemental and quasielemental planes even exist in 3rd Edition? He couldn't very well go to a realm that didn't exist.

-I'm not sure. But, as proved with Spelljamming, a lack of active support for something does not necessarily mean it doesn't exist anymore.
Old Sage
01-26-08, 09:57 AM Some of both the Para- and Quasi- Elemental Planes have been referenced in 3e Realmslore.

Underdark specifically notes Ooze Mephits, so I'm assuming that the Para-Elemental Plane of Ooze has *some* possibility of existing within the 3e Great Tree cosmology.
Gray Richardson
01-26-08, 05:19 PM I think the 3e explanation was that there was really only 4 elemental planes and that the para and quasi-elemental planes were just the border areas between the elemental planes.

I never had too much of a problem with that explanation, since that is kind of how they were explained in 2e, it's just that the border areas were considered planes in their own right. In 3e they were all still there, just not considered full-fledged planes. Potato, Potahto. It was all the same thing really.

But really, since all the para and quasi and elemental planes are all coterminous with each other, fading one into the next (like different colored splotches on the surface of a balloon) you could even see it as one big singular elemental plane with each element tending to congregate in a separate region. So whether you consider it 4 planes or 16 planes or even just one big plane, it is all pretty much the same model when you come down to it.

Which, come to think of it, is a little something like what they are doing in 4e with the Elemental Chaos. Granted, the Elemental Chaos is a little more heterogeneous, with regions that are more elementally mixed and less distinct. To extend the balloon analogy from above, in the new Elemental Chaos, it appears the colored splotches have been stirred up and broken up so that they are more splotchier and all swirled together. But I think that a DM who likes the way the old elemental planes were set up can have the elements be a little more segregated in his own Elemental Chaos, and can hold that the two models are essentially 2 different ways of looking at what is essentially the same thing.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GreenKnight 01-24-08, 08:57 PM	Ok, so after the fight with Lolth, Ghaunadaur leaves the Demonweb Pits and goes to the Deep Caverns. Sooo... what're the Deep Caverns. Where are they? Have they been mentioned before in Realmslore, or are they a new locale (I assume they exist in the Elemental Chaos, as Ghaunadaur appears to be a primordial, not a deity)?
Gray Richardson 01-24-08, 10:59 PM	The Deep Caverns are an outer plane in the Great Tree cosmology. It is a plane where many underdark deities abide. You can find details in the Players Guide to Faerūn. The three major gods that live there are Ilsensine, Great Mother, and Laogzed. I think you can also find Gzemnid here, and also I think Parrafaire may lair here, though I don't know that has been officially confirmed. I would surmise that Ibrandul also had his divine realm of Ibrandyllaran in this plane before Shar killed him. We are told that there are Kaorti living here, so the Deep Caverns may have some kind of tie to the Far Realms. Especially considering the information in Worlds & Monsters that the Beholders and Mind Flayers came from the Far Realms, there may be a portal or some other link that ties Deep Caverns to that alien realm outside the cosmos.
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 09:42 AM	Ok, so after the fight with Lolth, Ghaunadaur leaves the Demonweb Pits and goes to the Deep Caverns. -An especially silly move, "in character", consdering that Ghaundadaur already has a divine realm in the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze.
Gray Richardson 01-25-08, 10:42 AM	Petitioners might have been a motivating factor. If he wanted to take his petitioners with him, there might have been some limit that kept him from taking them beyond the outer planes. Deep Caverns is also nearer to the Demonweb Pits than the plane of Ooze. So we might also surmise that there were some logistical reasons for choosing Deep Caverns over Ooze. Perhaps he only had the energy to move his realm so far. Or Deep Caverns might have other attractive qualities that make it preferable. Perhaps he has allied with one or more of the gods there. Maybe Parrafaire is guarding a secret there that he can exploit against Lolth. Perhaps Tharizdun's prison is located in this plane and he is trying to make a connection with it. Or maybe Deep Caverns is ideally situated for him to keep a watchful eye on Lolth. Then the other thing to consider is that maybe he just hates the plane of Ooze and had no strong inclination to go back there. I myself have lived a couple of places in my life that I would not want to move back to. ;)
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 11:21 AM	Deep Caverns is also nearer to the Demonweb Pits than the plane of Ooze. So we might also surmise that there were some logistical reasons for choosing Deep Caverns over Ooze. Perhaps he only had the energy to move his realm so far. -Much like Eilistraee mantains (or, maintained, depending on her fate), Ghaunadaur too seems to have maintained two different Divine Realms. Then the other thing to consider is that maybe he just hates the plane of Ooze and had no strong inclination to go back there. I myself have lived a couple of places in my life that I would not want to move back to. ;) -Now, why would the Ooze deity hate ooze? :P
MarkusTay63 01-25-08, 11:48 AM	Competition? ;)
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 11:56 AM	Competition? ;) -Not really. The two major beings in the Paraelemental Plane of Ooze are Bwimb Il and The Warlock of Ooze. Bwimb Il has a big head, but in the grand scheme of the multiverse, she isn't that powerful. The Warlock of Ooze is only a 14th level Mage from Krynn. Neither measure up to that which Ghaunadaur is.
Kenzuki 01-25-08, 05:36 PM	Didn't Ghaunadaur eat Juiblex or something too?
Lord Karsus 01-25-08, 05:43 PM	Didn't Ghaunadaur eat Juiblex or something too? -In Realmspace, Ghaunadaur has assumed the names of both Jubliex and the Elder Elemental G-d. Jubilex occasionally lashs out at Ghaunadaur for doing this, but he still hasn't beat the Big G, and gotten his "good" name back. The Elder Elemental G-d doen't seem to mind, or at least hasn't lashed out at Ghaunadaur.
Old Sage 01-25-08, 06:22 PM	From Demihuman Deities:- "Although Ghaunadaur is a distinct entity unrelated to the tanar'ri lord Juiblex, the Faceless Lord, or the otherwise unnamed Elder Elemental God neither of the latter two powers is active in the Realms, and Ghaunadaur has assumed both of their aspects within the crystal sphere of Realmspace." Read the claim about the Elder Elemental God in light of the fact that much of Ghaunadaur's writeup is taken directly from descriptions of the EEG, which is itself distinct from Juiblex. Juiblex is a Demon Lord in the D&D core rules. In the Realms, he had some worshipers in 2e's Thay IIRC. When Demihuman Deities, and the other god books, were being worked on there was some desire to tidy up some of the gods, thus Juiblex became an aspect of Ghaunadaur in the Realms. Similar things happened to the 2e god of liches in Monster Mythology becoming an aspect of Velsharoon and Sseth garnering many different aspects.
Gray Richardson 01-25-08, 06:56 PM	Now, why would the Ooze deity hate ooze? :PSounds weird, I know, but I think actually plausible. He might have come to view the Plane of Ooze as boring, or parochial, or "away from the action". He might have come to loathe and despise the other creatures and individuals who reside there, he may no longer be able to abide them. He might have been hanging out with the Drow so long that he now views Oooze as uncool. He might hate the way the terrain squishes between his toes. ;) But I don't think there has to be a logical reason why Ghaunadaur might have come to hate the Plane of Ooze. Never underestimate Ghaunadaur's capacity to hate. :coolcthul
Vulpes 01-26-08, 01:52 AM	Well, this is the deity who, in a fit of pique, stripped sentience from his ooze and slime worshipers in the mists of time, thus destroying his own power base until he hooked up with Lolth later. Not exactly a rational kind of deity. LOL Anyway, did the paraelemental and quasielemental planes even exist in 3rd Edition? He couldn't very well go to a realm that didn't exist.
Lord Karsus 01-26-08, 08:27 AM	Anyway, did the paraelemental and quasielemental planes even exist in 3rd Edition? He couldn't very well go to a realm that didn't exist. -I'm not sure. But, as proved with Spelljamming, a lack of active support for something does not necessarily mean it doesn't exist anymore.
Old Sage 01-26-08, 09:57 AM	Some of both the Para- and Quasi- Elemental Planes have been referenced in 3e Realmslore. Underdark specifically notes Ooze Mephits, so I'm assuming that the Para-Elemental Plane of Ooze has some possibility of existing within the 3e Great Tree cosmology.
Gray Richardson 01-26-08, 05:19 PM	I think the 3e explanation was that there was really only 4 elemental planes and that the para and quasi-elemental planes were just the border areas between the elemental planes. I never had too much of a problem with that explanation, since that is kind of how they were explained in 2e, it's just that the border areas were considered planes in their own right. In 3e they were all still there, just not considered full-fledged planes. Potato, Potahto. It was all the same thing really. But really, since all the para and quasi and elemental planes are all coterminous with each other, fading one into the next (like different colored splotches on the surface of a balloon) you could even see it as one big singular elemental plane with each element tending to congregate in a separate region. So whether you consider it 4 planes or 16 planes or even just one big plane, it is all pretty much the same model when you come down to it. Which, come to think of it, is a little something like what they are doing in 4e with the Elemental Chaos. Granted, the Elemental Chaos is a little more heterogeneous, with regions that are more elementally mixed and less distinct. To extend the balloon analogy from above, in the new Elemental Chaos, it appears the colored splotches have been stirred up and broken up so that they are more splotchier and all swirled together. But I think that a DM who likes the way the old elemental planes were set up can have the elements be a little more segregated in his own Elemental Chaos, and can hold that the two models are essentially 2 different ways of looking at what is essentially the same thing.