| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| Yxunomei04-23-07, 03:26 AM | I'm a bit confuzzled about this. It would seem that the vast majority of Arch-devils are patrons to cults and can also grant their worshipers spells, similar to a deity. On the other hand, some demons/devils can arguably exist without worship (contrary to deities). So which on are they? Or could it simply be assumed that there are some supremely powerful beings who can access and grant divine spells without becoming a deity? Are there any other non-deities that can access and grant divine spells independently other than the controversial Ice Lich whose source of spells has already been a heated debate here? |
| Zanan04-23-07, 03:41 AM | Opinion on them has long been split, as some Abyssal Lords were "deities" in previous editions. Within Realmspace nowadays, they are not though. They are very (as in: VERY) powerful beings that rival the power of some deities and many deities will not want to cross a Abyssal Lord or Archfiend. Furthermore, FR people may worship these fiend lords and receive spells, if they take up the appropriate feat (see Champions of Ruin), much like it is with dead deities. In essence, these beings channel divine spell-like power and grant divine spells, but they are no gods themselves. Said Champions of Ruin and the Players' Guide to Faerūn are the relevant sources for the Realms here. If you want "stats" and classes for these fiends, check the Book of Vile Darkness and Fiendish Codex I & II. |
| Delendir04-23-07, 07:10 AM | It is also notable that some Demon Princes and Archfiends can rise to godhood, just like any other being. They can gain portfolios and are deities like the rest of them. Gargauth is a good example of this, the patron of the Knights of the Shield and a god of betrayel. So in the end, it depends on the setting you play in. In some more of them are deities and others less of them, or none of them at all, are deities. But clearly, there are simple guidelines to, whether or not powerful outsiders can grant spells. So far, the only one I know is that you must have worshippers. I would love to hear the rest. |
| Zireael04-23-07, 07:15 AM | As far as I know, they're nearly quasi-deities, and they can rival with some deities. Another demon prince that became a god(dess) is Lloth the Spider Queen. |
| Shemeska the Marauder04-23-07, 07:18 AM | Pretty much what Zanan already said. None of them require mortal worship, and they don't benefit from it in the same way that a deity would, but many of them will grant "divine" magic to worshippers as a means of promoting their abstract alignment, or a particular facet of their plane/alignment that they embody. That said, some archfiends have in the lore prior to 3e also chosen to cultivate their worship and embrace godhood on top of and in addition to their status as archfiends (neither one trumps the other, and each state of being has its own benefits and drawbacks). Demogorgon, Yeenoghu, Baphomet, and Orcus were examples of archfiends who were also gods, while other beings such as Graz'zt intentionally avoided godhood because they didn't view deific power as being worth the price of being beholden to mortal worship, having to devote resources outside of the lower planes, etc. I'd be remiss if I didn't include Gargauth, who became a demigod after being exiled from Baator following the death of Beherit. The political fallout of his actions in Baator at the time still prevents him from returning there, god or not, and it's arguable that he's unwillingly serving the interests of the plane and its rulers just without being on the payroll, so to speak, at the moment. But he is an archdevil, though an exiled one, and also a god. In any event, on their home planes they're equivalent to (or in some cases more powerful than) deities, and they're capable of granting spells regardless of their status as deities or not (it's up for debate if they grant the spells themselves, or if they serve as a focus or icon for worshippers to gain the spells from their alignment/plane as a whole). |
| Stigger04-23-07, 07:27 AM | I'd say non divine and vastly overblown in terms of reputation, but that's purely my own personal opinion of them, nothing to do with stated canon on them. Not having read the 3.5 treatment in the Codex books, I couldn't really say one way or another, but a lot of it I'd say relied more on the DM's interpretation of them rather than on some concrete fact, possibly even semi-intentionally. :) |
| Valgard04-23-07, 08:50 AM | As mentioned above, some were deities in previous editions of the game, but they draw power more from their plane and the connections they have with cosmology rather than actual mortal worship, so the idea to make deities with so least interest in mortal worship is quite contradictory. Mr. Eric L. Boyd said in these boards that these "entities" that are quasi/virtual/dead/whatever deities should offer their future worshipers access to a feat that grants them divine sponsorship, being for Archdevils the Disciple of Darkness feat and Thrall to Demon for Demon Lords, these two feats originally appeared in the Boof of Vile Darkness. This has been stated rigurously in a sidebar in Champions of Ruin. Other feats exist that work in a similar way: Scion of Sorrow (CoR, for Yugoloth Lords), Servant of the Fallen (LEoF, for dead deities), or Servant of a Dragon Ascendant (DoF, for dragons with 12 levels in the Dragon Ascendant prestige class from Draconomicon). If you wanna make new feats similiar to these, the benefits granted should be this access to divine magic you want to offer, and a small benefit that usually is to get once per day a +1 bonus on one single check. This second benefit may be replaced by any benefit lesser to a normal feat's benefit. |
| Zanan04-23-07, 12:36 PM | As far as I know, they're nearly quasi-deities, and they can rival with some deities. Another demon prince that became a god(dess) is Lloth the Spider Queen. Not within Realmspace. She was a deity all the way, though for a time cast out and cursed (or whatever) by Mr. "I rule the Seldarine" Corellon. Yet, soon after she conquered her Realm, reclaimed her divinity and has been a deity afterwards again. Her true form, within Realmspace, is that of a female dark elf / drow. |
| Dielzen04-23-07, 12:53 PM | The bottom of my deity list has some demons/devils that are worshipped (officially) in the Realms. |
| Renvale99904-23-07, 01:21 PM | The funny part is you really don't see them mentioned in the novels and sourcebooks too often...I know that Asmodues and Demogorgon are "far too busy" to bother with the Realms, but I play them as allies/servitors or the dark gods. In my world, Bane and Asmodues have a long standing alliance and the two have benefitted greatly from the relationship. Bane seeks help conquering Faerun, and Asmodues seeks help fighting the blood war and bringing down the Hebomad. But that's just me, but I've had my players fight battles against the zhents and suddenly devils start gating in...that's when I first introduced the alliance between Bane and Asmodues...should have seen their faces.:eek: Sorry not trying to side-track the thread. |
| Tergiver04-23-07, 02:10 PM | I agree with the idea that the archdevils and demon lords are powerful entities that can dabble with clerics and cults for their own ends. My vision is that there's an epic feat for Outsiders that allows you to create your own cult, and this ability is part of the archdevil/demon lords template. Your followers need to spend a feat of their own (at least in the Realms) to attune to you and get spells. There's probably a ranking system like DVR for these entities - similar enough to DVR to make them feared, different enough that neither the gods nor the devils can count on how it'll work out in a serious confrontation. |
| Renvale99904-23-07, 03:02 PM | I agree with the idea that the archdevils and demon lords are powerful entities that can dabble with clerics and cults for their own ends. My vision is that there's an epic feat for Outsiders that allows you to create your own cult, and this ability is part of the archdevil/demon lords template. Your followers need to spend a feat of their own (at least in the Realms) to attune to you and get spells. There's probably a ranking system like DVR for these entities - similar enough to DVR to make them feared, different enough that neither the gods nor the devils can count on how it'll work out in a serious confrontation. Not a bad system really...you don't see too many Arch demons and devils with cults so it would make sense that they have to take a feat to have one...kinda of like Leadership. |
| Stigger04-23-07, 03:37 PM | Indeed an interesting thought... gotta contemplate that one. |
| Zandilar04-23-07, 07:42 PM | Heya, It's interesting that there are no equivelant cults for Good arch-outsiders... If demons/devils don't serve the gods, then it follows (and is only fair) that angels and other celestials don't serve the gods either (there may be some of both fiendish and celestial origins who choose to, but as a general rule they serve their alignment/plane)... And if some people can get power from dead gods(!), demons, and devils... why don't some choose to gain their power solely from celestials? Which leads me into the biggest question of all, regarding this... What are the gods for? (If you can't gain spells from a celestial, then the question changes to "What are the evil gods for?") |
| Stigger04-23-07, 08:27 PM | Pretty much sums up my problems with the archfiends getting so much love Zandilar, so to speak... |
| BadCatMan04-23-07, 09:04 PM | It's interesting that there are no equivelant cults for Good arch-outsiders... Actually, I wonder if a few of Faerun's gods are in fact ascended celestials. In Faiths & Pantheons, it is said that "Tyr came to Toril in -247... bursting from a gate... led a force of 200 archons" when he pacified the remnants of Jhaamdath. This was the beginning of his worship. When I first read it, I wondered if he was a LG arch-celestial at the time, though he probably was a god all along. In any case, goodly celestials rarely seek power or control, and thus they probably don't have the inclination to foster faiths/cults/fan-clubs in their honour. Hence very few, if any, will achieve divinity that way. |
| Shemeska the Marauder04-23-07, 10:10 PM | If demons/devils don't serve the gods, then it follows (and is only fair) that angels and other celestials don't serve the gods either (there may be some of both fiendish and celestial origins who choose to, but as a general rule they serve their alignment/plane)... The alignment based celestials (archons, guardinals, eladrin) don't serve deities, but angels/aasimon are explicitly created as deific servants (and wouldn't exist as a class of celestials otherwise). And if some people can get power from dead gods(!), demons, and devils... why don't some choose to gain their power solely from celestials? I would suspect that the celestials simply don't seek to gain worship, nor cultivate cults of their own on the prime material like archfiends do. They might serve as patrons to mortals who specifically seek them out, and they may support mortals spreading a particular variety of good on the prime material, but usually they seem to leave the prime material alone for various reasons. I could see institutionalized reverence for the Hebdomad however. Not a religion, but a state sponsored philosophy of LG that held up the archon planar lords as embodiments of specific ideals. |
| boards04-23-07, 11:26 PM | I think it is manual of the plains, that states that the Celestial Hebdomad sponsor cults but actively refute that they are gods and as such shouldnt be worshipped. They can sponsor groups ie Fists of Raziel but I'm not sure if this is found in Faerun. Lower planes creatures who wish to do so, probably just want to dominate the prime material plane, something Archons have no desire to do. |
| Zandilar04-24-07, 12:26 AM | Heya, In Faiths & Pantheons, it is said that "Tyr came to Toril in -247... bursting from a gate... led a force of 200 archons" when he pacified the remnants of Jhaamdath. This was the beginning of his worship. When I first read it, I wondered if he was a LG arch-celestial at the time, though he probably was a god all along. Tyr is supposed to be Tyr* from the Norse pantheon, not a powerful Celestial. He is one of many interloper deities who stuck around. In any case, goodly celestials rarely seek power or control, and thus they probably don't have the inclination to foster faiths/cults/fan-clubs in their honour. Hence very few, if any, will achieve divinity that way. Hmm.. I dunno. How many PrCs associated with Arch-Celestials were there in BoED? Enough, I think, to justify cults dedicated to them - though maybe they'd be attached to the churches of the gods they're most sympathetic with. * Tyr from the Norse pantheon was the god of Law and War. The Realms Tyr seems more like Forsetti than Tyr, though both Tyrs are missing hands (sacrificed to ensure that Kezef and Fenrir respectively were chained up) - maybe Realms Tyr is actually a melding of Norse Tyr and Forsetti? |
| Zandilar04-24-07, 12:34 AM | Heya, The alignment based celestials (archons, guardinals, eladrin) don't serve deities, but angels/aasimon are explicitly created as deific servants (and wouldn't exist as a class of celestials otherwise). Thanks for the clarification. :) I admit I completely forgot that about Angels. :) I would suspect that the celestials simply don't seek to gain worship, nor cultivate cults of their own on the prime material like archfiends do. They might serve as patrons to mortals who specifically seek them out, and they may support mortals spreading a particular variety of good on the prime material, but usually they seem to leave the prime material alone for various reasons. But that's kind of letting Devils, Demons, and the like have free run over the mortal world, with nothing (other than the gods) to oppose them, isn't it? It doesn't seem terribly balanced to me. I could see institutionalized reverence for the Hebdomad however. Not a religion, but a state sponsored philosophy of LG that held up the archon planar lords as embodiments of specific ideals. Yes, I can easily see that happening somewhere too... Just not in the Realms. ;) |
| Stigger04-24-07, 01:25 AM | But that's kind of letting Devils, Demons, and the like have free run over the mortal world, with nothing (other than the gods) to oppose them, isn't it? It doesn't seem terribly balanced to me. Again Zandilar, that sums up my feelings as well. I just can't see the various celestials just sitting there and doing nothing while the Archfiends collect up souls and power on the Primes. Seems way overbalanced towards giving evil an upperhand there... and far too monotheistic in philosophical origin for my liking. |
| BadCatMan04-24-07, 01:47 AM | Tyr is supposed to be Tyr* from the Norse pantheon, not a powerful Celestial. He is one of many interloper deities who stuck around. I know . It was just the manner of his arrival - in person and leading an army of archons that first made me think of his as a powerful celestial than a god. Has Tyr ever been explicitly stated to be an interloper deity, or was it just assumed? Not all creatures in FR familiar from Earth mythology are the same: FR Dionysus is a saint of Ilmater, not the Greek god, while Ilmater himself has little to do with the Finnish deity of the same name. My theory: In 3.x edition core D&D, a creature being a deity and a Cleric are entirely separate notions. At it's core, the Cleric is a Wisdom-based spellcaster with two domains, healing/wounding, undead turning/rebuking, an alignment, and a favoured weapon - the cleric of an ideal. It's relationship to a god is irrelevent. If he chooses to worship a certain creature, he may, with no real consequences (going against a faith is the same as going against the ideal). Deities then become simply lists of options and ideas for said clerics. This is why Eberron has it's ideal clerics and corrupted clerics. FR is a whole different kettle of fish: the gods have been shown to be real creatures (for better or for worse). Hence Clerics in FR are restricted in their options while core and Eberron Clerics are completely free. Rather than make a fix, which WotC will not do, alternative god-like creatures were introduced, heresies, and the like were introduced, alongside a feat with many many names: receive divine spells and +1 luck bonus to a check. I think Eric L Boyd called it the 'potted plant' feat, for worshipping anything up to an including the potted plant. In time, I think such a feat will come out in its entirety. |
| Shemeska the Marauder04-24-07, 02:02 AM | But that's kind of letting Devils, Demons, and the like have free run over the mortal world, with nothing (other than the gods) to oppose them, isn't it? It doesn't seem terribly balanced to me. The fiends largely aren't interested in the prime though. And when they do act on the prime, that's probably when the celestials will take action on their own, or by empowering and illuminating mortals to the threat. Given that the fiends are embroiled in the Blood War and their own genocidal squabbling, almost to the detriment of everything else, the fiends are probably at a severe disadvantage when acting on the prime. The Eladrin in particular would probably declare open season on baatezu cults on the worlds of the prime, though they'd oppose them still under the 'veil', and wouldn't allow their involvement as eladrin to be known to mortals. I think it's a telling point that for all their power, the archfiends don't command even a fraction of power on the prime material as even some single world gods. They can't/don't devote themselves to, or the resources towards, the prime, and when they do they're at a strong disadvantage against deities and celestials. |
| Shemeska the Marauder04-24-07, 02:07 AM | Has Tyr ever been explicitly stated to be an interloper deity, or was it just assumed? Yep. Tyr, Loviatar, the entire Untheric/Sumerian and Mulhorandi/Egyptian pantheons, and a number of others are explicitly interloper deities, and have been stated as such. The direct connection was more extensively noted in 2e material, but the interloper status has been reiterated in 3e as well, just not in the same detail. |
| Stigger04-24-07, 02:09 AM | Can't be that severe if they've developed PrC's to suit some of the major archfiends from BoVD... or are you speaking of direct manifested action, rather than by proxy (not in the planar sense of the word)? As to them not being all that interested in the Prime, how exactly would you go about explaining things like Hellgate Keep, Myth Drannor, the Citadel of Conjurers, Dragonspear Castle, etcetera and so forth? |
| Shemeska the Marauder04-24-07, 02:19 AM | As to them not being all that interested in the Prime, how exactly would you go about explaining things like Hellgate Keep, Myth Drannor, the Citadel of Conjurers, Dragonspear Castle, etcetera and so forth? That's not major however on the scale of things that they're used to. Being "interested" in a prime material world would at its worst and most overt involve a direct Blood War spillover. Though that has happened before, it probably benefits the fiends to leave the prime material largely alone to provide a continual stream of evil souls into their hands (most worlds) or at a low but probably steady rate (such as Toril with its local restrictions on petitioners and patron gods etc). They'd likely keep their action on the prime to a low level, seeking to promote their brand of evil in more surreptitious and less overt ways. So yeah, while there have been some noted points of fiend incursions onto Toril, we can probably ignore those instances where it was instigated by mortals, but even then the scale of the events is tiny by comparison to say, the death toll on the Field of Nettles for a given stretch of 24 hours. |
| Stigger04-24-07, 02:26 AM | Fair enough, but I do question the timing of them. A long time between incursions on a mortal scale, but fairly rapidly on a planar scale where lifespans for major fiends are counted in centuries, or millenia. As to the instigation by mortals, given what I recall of things like Hellgate, the fiends weren't exactly passive victims who were innocently summoned, but rather instigating the mortals to summon them. Sure its not their primary focus, but I'd say it definitely showed at least some level of interest on the fiends part. |
| Dark_beebles04-24-07, 03:07 AM | Not within Realmspace. She was a deity all the way, though for a time cast out and cursed (or whatever) by Mr. "I rule the Seldarine" Corellon. Yet, soon after she conquered her Realm, reclaimed her divinity and has been a deity afterwards again. Her true form, within Realmspace, is that of a female dark elf / drow. Hmm actually it says that her true form is that of a female drow torso with the body of a spider...or she looks like a female drow..either one are her true forms. Just like Corellon can look like a Male or Female Elf...with golden/red hair and such...neither are their true forms they are both. And as a side note zanan...Lolth dies at the end of the 3rd book by Corellon...:D Arrow in the eye after Vharune jacks her in the back...:D lol...gonna happen just watch =p |
| Zanan04-24-07, 04:40 AM | Hmm actually it says that her true form is that of a female drow torso with the body of a spider...or she looks like a female drow..either one are her true forms. Just like Corellon can look like a Male or Female Elf...with golden/red hair and such...neither are their true forms they are both. And as a side note zanan...Lolth dies at the end of the 3rd book by Corellon...:D Arrow in the eye after Vharune jacks her in the back...:D lol...gonna happen just watch =p Re her true form, look at Faiths & Pantheons, p. 40 - for Realmspace. I give no regard to Deities & Demigods or FC I in this respect, as it is "another" cosmology and her history within Realmspace (as presented in all relevant FR sources differs from the Greyhawkian one). That would mean that Corry had to enter Lolth's Realm, which I doubt she would allow. BTW, Ed stated quite a while ago that Lolth will be No. I drow deity, always was, always will be. And if she doesn't, servant of the fallen will see much use. |
| Zandilar04-24-07, 04:50 AM | Heya, That's not major however on the scale of things that they're used to. Being "interested" in a prime material world would at its worst and most overt involve a direct Blood War spillover. Though that has happened before, it probably benefits the fiends to leave the prime material largely alone to provide a continual stream of evil souls into their hands (most worlds) or at a low but probably steady rate (such as Toril with its local restrictions on petitioners and patron gods etc). They'd likely keep their action on the prime to a low level, seeking to promote their brand of evil in more surreptitious and less overt ways. This puzzles me somewhat. With the rules with regards to Souls in FR, the only souls demons/devils get are the ones they can persuade/abduct from the Fugue Plane, and lets say that worshiping a demon/devil specifically involves signing one's soul over to them - the number of souls they can obtain must be miniscle compared to the number of souls they gain over the rest of the multiverse (assuming here that we're using the Great Wheel). Why do they have any interest at all in Abeir-Toril? (If we're using the Great Tree, I'm afraid I don't really know where demons/devil and celestials fit in, I'd have to check my books but I'm too lazy to do that at the moment. ;)) |
| Sliced_Mustard04-24-07, 10:02 AM | Actually, I wonder if a few of Faerun's gods are in fact ascended celestials. In Faiths & Pantheons, it is said that "Tyr came to Toril in -247... bursting from a gate... led a force of 200 archons" when he pacified the remnants of Jhaamdath. This was the beginning of his worship. When I first read it, I wondered if he was a LG arch-celestial at the time, though he probably was a god all along. that woiuld be my interpretation of it --a god all along. the thing is, because he burst in on the Realms, its likely he didn't have Ao's approval to be a god in the Realms, so his power as a god was limited. at that point, he was probably treated as a very very powerful LG outsider until the worship began and Ao recognized the need/desire of the people for a justice god and finally gave Tyr the official nod. |
| Sliced_Mustard04-24-07, 10:06 AM | Again Zandilar, that sums up my feelings as well. I just can't see the various celestials just sitting there and doing nothing while the Archfiends collect up souls and power on the Primes. Seems way overbalanced towards giving evil an upperhand there... and far too monotheistic in philosophical origin for my liking. I dont think they would sit there and do nothing, but starting good cults to oppose evil cults would still draw worship away from the true gods. rather than elevate themselves as icons of worship, I would imagine they just champion the cause of good & sponsor followings/orders devoted to crushing fiendish cults. |
| Sliced_Mustard04-24-07, 10:22 AM | This puzzles me somewhat. With the rules with regards to Souls in FR, the only souls demons/devils get are the ones they can persuade/abduct from the Fugue Plane, and lets say that worshiping a demon/devil specifically involves signing one's soul over to them - the number of souls they can obtain must be miniscle compared to the number of souls they gain over the rest of the multiverse (assuming here that we're using the Great Wheel). Why do they have any interest at all in Abeir-Toril? (If we're using the Great Tree, I'm afraid I don't really know where demons/devil and celestials fit in, I'd have to check my books but I'm too lazy to do that at the moment. ;)) personally, one more reason I prefer the Great Wheel cosmology and often stray from official 3.x FR canon. I run the cosmology more like 2nd edition with some occasional minor changes to suit third party and homebrew content. I like the way devils are presented in Fiendish Codex 2 as collectors of souls to make them truly independant from the gods and still able to harness divine energy. I still adhere to the ruling that devils cannot steal souls on the fugue plane, only try to convince them to sign themselves over. also, I dont assume everyone LE ends up in Hell to be used by devils because that does infringe too much on the LE gods of the realms. devils will claim any LE souls that claimed to worship a god that does not support that alignment, however... for example, a LE fanatic that believes he serves the greater good of a LG god by tolerating or even performing "necessary evils". basically, Hell is a place of torment that some bad souls get sent to for punishment. the wall of the faithless in the fugue plane I reserve for those that willfully claim no divine patron but escape "punishment" of the lower planes for one reason or another. |
| Stigger04-24-07, 04:10 PM | I dont think they would sit there and do nothing, but starting good cults to oppose evil cults would still draw worship away from the true gods. rather than elevate themselves as icons of worship, I would imagine they just champion the cause of good & sponsor followings/orders devoted to crushing fiendish cults. Good point... kinda kicking myself in the head for not having thought that one through to its natural conclusion. :D |
| Zandilar04-24-07, 11:12 PM | Heya, also, I dont assume everyone LE ends up in Hell to be used by devils because that does infringe too much on the LE gods of the realms. devils will claim any LE souls that claimed to worship a god that does not support that alignment, however... for example, a LE fanatic that believes he serves the greater good of a LG god by tolerating or even performing "necessary evils". According to canon, that LE soul would end up being punished in Kelemvor's Realm as False. The only way the devils would get their hands on him would be if that soul made a bargain with them before reaching Kelemvor's judgement. If the LE person was really so deluded that he really really believes he was serving the greater cause of LG by performing "necessary evils" during his life, I can't really see him making a bargain with a devil. In the Realms, the afterlife is neither punishment nor reward. basically, Hell is a place of torment that some bad souls get sent to for punishment. the wall of the faithless in the fugue plane I reserve for those that willfully claim no divine patron but escape "punishment" of the lower planes for one reason or another. Well this is definitely outside canon. ;) |
| Sliced_Mustard04-24-07, 11:47 PM | did I not mention I don't adhere blindly to canon? forgive me, its just that FR canon seems a little inconsistent at times& I'm not fond of throwing the 2e past under the bus for the sake of 3e establishing itself. I like my way better than the "official" way. |
| Mr_Miscellany04-25-07, 12:32 AM | So which on are they? Or could it simply be assumed that there are some supremely powerful beings who can access and grant divine spells without becoming a deity? It's fun from a play standpoint to have NPCs and PCs that can draw power from Arch-Devils and Demon Princes. Thus we have rules for this. Does this mean Arch-Devils and Demon Princes are gods? No. Though near-divine, such creatures should never be at or equal in power to the Gods of the Realms in published products. DMs can and should change this, if they so desire, to fit their ideal of what environment the Realms should be for their players. |
| Zandilar04-25-07, 04:27 AM | Heya, did I not mention I don't adhere blindly to canon? forgive me, its just that FR canon seems a little inconsistent at times& I'm not fond of throwing the 2e past under the bus for the sake of 3e establishing itself. I like my way better than the "official" way. I never meant anything I said as a criticism of you. I noted that what you said was out of canon. In point of fact, it is even outside of canon for 2nd Edition Realms. As far as I remember, the Faithless/False thing worked the same way then as it does now, and demons and devils have always had to be content with those souls they manage to abduct and bargain for respectively from the Fugue Plane (and the souls of those who threw their lot in with demons/devils during their lives). But this is not meant as a criticism. I can certianly understand why you changed things... I'd do it myself, but I still don't quite know what I'd do - it would probably be a huge change in the end, eliminating the independance of all celestials (except angels, since they already work the way I'd like everything else to) and infernals, making them simply servitors of the gods (mind you, I might concider making some powerful arch-infernals demi-gods, and elevating a number of arch-celestials as well, but that's just a rough idea at the moment - Abeir-Toril has enough gods as it is, so it's probably not necessary). I would probably also make it that people getting spells from dead gods only think they are, because their spells are actually coming from a domain/portfolio/alignment compatiable deity who is hoping to slowly convert them to the true worship of themselves via dream-visions and omens and whatnot. |
| Sliced_Mustard04-25-07, 11:14 AM | I never meant anything I said as a criticism of you. I noted that what you said was out of canon. I realize that, I just thought it was obvious that what I was saying was not canon when I said "homebrew" and "third party," not to mention the first line of that post where I say that I "often stray from official 3.x FR canon." you pointing out that my choices are out of canon just came off --at the least-- as gratuitously redundant......and, given many people's rigid adherance to canon only, could have been misconstrued as criticism. |
| ShadezofDis04-25-07, 11:39 AM | Just speaking on Demonic and Devilian (yay for making up words *g*) interest in the Realms; I've said in various places around here that I like the idea that Devils and Demons ultimate goal for a Prime is to subsume it into their own Plane (and hopefully their own Layer) and, currently, what I'm basing a "Prime's worth" off of is the level of magic of the world. This makes FR a prize since the Raw Magic of Toril is mighty, unfortunately for the fiends FR is also a difficult prize to grab (Archmages and Gods oh my!) and, IMO, a much more difficult prize since the cosmological shift (which I run as happening durring the ToT but effected in such a way as to make it "always the case" so to speak) because FR has moved that much further away from their Planes. (ie. You have to draw FR through the Shadow Plane in order to subsume it) That's the big interest, what beings such as Orcus, Asmodeus, etc would love to do. However, the wrinkle in the whole deal is Devil and Demonic independence. Once you get above the "grunt" stage of these outsiders I run the mortal focused fiends as mostly independent agents, working on their own goals and following a sort of quota ("Ms Erinyes, you seem to be 50 souls short this century, prepare for demotion!" ;)) or not, depends on how you'd like to run it really :) This doesn't mean that Gods won't try and use devils and demons as servators, it's just a dangerous game to play (but Gods do have the advantage of being Gods) Anyhow, the thing I really like about my model is that it gives a reason for AO (he makes sure the Prime stays the Prime), gives a good solid reason for Gods (above and beyond just being Gods) and creates quite a lovely tangled mess of plot and intrigue, should you chose to use it :) oh, and that I made it up, I like that too (or rather, extrapolated from various sources and trying to make sense of the planes and such) |
| BrennonGoldeye04-25-07, 01:11 PM | Devils are great. Especially with stuffed bell peppers and a little paprika. Don't blame me, I got the recipe from KtM. Just check his final spoiler.;) |
| Daydreamer04-25-07, 02:20 PM | according to dieties and demigods dieties DO NOT rely on having followers either. |
| ShadezofDis04-25-07, 02:28 PM | according to dieties and demigods dieties DO NOT rely on having followers either. Dieties and Demigods is trumped by Faiths and Pantheons. I'm sure someone around here knows what page it's actually spelled out on but the ToT ensured that FR gods are powered by their followers (in some way shape or form) |
| Khaelieth04-25-07, 02:48 PM | If a god died... But people continued to worship the god for ages and in sufficient number, could the god return? |
| TheCrescentSpider04-25-07, 06:06 PM | I'm a bit confuzzled about this. It would seem that the vast majority of Arch-devils are patrons to cults and can also grant their worshipers spells, similar to a deity. On the other hand, some demons/devils can arguably exist without worship (contrary to deities). So which on are they? Or could it simply be assumed that there are some supremely powerful beings who can access and grant divine spells without becoming a deity? Are there any other non-deities that can access and grant divine spells independently other than the controversial Ice Lich whose source of spells has already been a heated debate here? Arch devils and demon princes are as close enough to being a deity with out being one. They have divine rank 0 (Deities and Demigods) and, with a feat that consigns you to the Abyss or Baator, you cn receive spells from them. It is unadvised though, as you can't be ressurected without the intervention of the devil or demon that the PC sold his/her soul to, or a deity. Plus, that PC might come back as a balor or pit fiend eventually, and might desecrate the party, if the DM wants to be mean. |
| MarkusTay6304-25-07, 06:20 PM | Mr. Eric L. Boyd said in these boards that these "entities" that are quasi/virtual/dead/whatever deities should offer their future worshipers access to a feat that grants them divine sponsorship, being for Archdevils the Disciple of Darkness feat and Thrall to Demon for Demon Lords, these two feats originally appeared in the Boof of Vile Darkness. I really enjoyed that concept of his - He called it "The 'potted-plant' Feat", and it took the place of several other feats that grant devine spells under circumstances where normally you could not get them. Basically, you take the Feat and decide a source of worship - even a potted plant! :D This actually makes a humongous amount of sense in the grand scheme of things. Think about it - where do the gods get most of their power? From OUR faith in them. We send it to them, and they send it right back to us as spells. So Eric's feats simply 'cuts out the middle-man', allowing you to tap directly into your own faith. We are all part of the devine, you just have to learn how to use it. ;) |
| Sliced_Mustard04-25-07, 11:01 PM | I know he called it the potted-plant feat, but it really needs to be given a better name. the perfect name is in Valgard's post, I think: Divine Sponsorship. |
| Zandilar04-26-07, 01:32 AM | Heya, I wish they'd just make up their minds. (*Turns on her RantMachine*) Really, the Forgotten Realms has so many deities already, there's a very wide variety for divine types to venerate - and pretty much an infinite variety of combinations of concepts and ideas that can be found amongst them. Why do we even need to contemplate a feat whose sole purpose is to add back into the Realms the Core Concept that allows clerics and paladins and rangers and anyone with divine spells the ability to gain their spells and power from an idea or concept (usually alignment)? At this rate, they may as well just take Faiths and Pantheons and throw it out the window and replace all the gods with new ones called LawfulGood, LawfulNeutral, LawfulEvil, NeutralGood, TrueNeutral, NeutralEvil, ChaoticGood, ChaoticNeutral, and ChaoticEvil - who are nothing except the abstract concepts that make up their alignment, and whose forms vary depending on what day of the week it is, who is looking at them, what the viewer's current adgenda is, and what the player's last meal was when it was raining in June (or January depending on the hemisphere). Seriously, this has been bothering me lately. This argument is going on in more than one thread (and I've participated, and pretty much said similar things to this rant), and there's even a thread for "what deities the Forgotten Realms are missing?"! Sooooo frustrating and short sighted, IMHO. (*Having finished venting her frustration, Zandilar turns her RantMachine off*) |
| MaskedOne04-26-07, 07:37 PM | Shrug, while I don't mind having the Core ability to operate as a cleric of a cause rather than a specific divinity. I don't expect to be throwing out Faiths and Pantheons anytime soon if said ability shows up in FR. I enjoy many of Toril's divinities more than enough to keep them around regardless of whether one can follow an alignment as if it were a divinity. I also consider NPC clerics to be more likely to come as clerics of divinities rather than alignments simply because I think most people who decide to place faith in a higher power prefer one that they can relate to in some degree than an utterly impersonal force. I won't speak for PC clerics, that has as much to do with player preference and ooc concerns as the nature of faith. I like alignments and I even enjoy to a degree having alignments which are a touch more universal than the influence of most divinities having champions who can stand up to the gods but I still rather enjoy Toril's divinites. Now if we were talking about Krynn's divinities, that might be different but I don't have much use for Krynn. |
| Tergiver04-26-07, 09:12 PM | Why do we even need to contemplate a feat whose sole purpose is to add back into the Realms the Core Concept that allows clerics and paladins and rangers and anyone with divine spells the ability to gain their spells and power from an idea or concept (usually alignment)? Well, cults are fun. Demon cults, beholder cults, weird inbred fishmen cults in declining villages... there are all sorts of fun adventure possibilities when you're culting. In a world with magic and clerics, cults without magic tend to be fragile and unpopular. In the Realms, I would always associate the "Divine Sponsorship" feat with a specific divine (or quasidivine) power. Perhaps the character is beholden an entity that has found a loophole (like a demon prince) to grant divine power. Otherwise, I'd say the feat is a metagame tax and the player pays it to say "Yes, my belief is weird, but some divine power has decided to grant me spells anyway." You may worship your ficus, but Sylvanus decides that's close enough for a monkey. You worship Justice, and Tyr says "I can work with that". Regardless, we can expect the character to be surprised when they die. |
| Zandilar04-27-07, 01:17 AM | Heya, Regardless, we can expect the character to be surprised when they die. That's exactly the problem. The people of Abeir-Toril know without a shadow of the doubt that the gods exist, and they also know the consequences of rejecting them. To quote Ed (August 07, 2006 on Candlekeep) All of the conditions you mention are possible for players and DMs employing real-world, modern-day thinking, in which belief in a deity (often a ‘supreme’ or lone deity) is often a matter of faith: believing in a Divine One of some sort through “faith.” That is, belief that for many individuals is bolstered more by sermons and interpretations provided by an organized priesthoods than by personal contact with the deity. Things are different in the Realms. ALL intelligent beings, whether they worship any deity or not, are born and grow up “knowing” the gods are real, and that they manifest or even “walk among us” daily. EVERY intelligent being receives dream-visions that they believe are sent by the gods, among their other dreams. The nature of these visions makes it clear that they are divine in nature (an individual may need or want a priest’s interpretation of the meaning of a dream-vision, but does NOT need the priest to confirm it came from a god). In most cases in which an intelligent being prays fervently to a deity (i.e. really meaning the prayer, not cursing or saying something by rote with real attention on something else), there is a manifestation, even if only minor (tingling of excitement from Tymora, rosy glow inside one’s head from Lathander, the clang of sword on sword heard in one’s head from Tempus, and so on). In other words, the praying being KNOWS they’ve made contact (perhaps not been heard or heeded or agreed with, and perhaps only with a god’s aura or servitors rather than receiving the personal attention of the deity at that moment - - but they’ve been heard). Individuals who go to temples in which exalted [high-level] clergy perform exacting rituals (“super-prayers,” if you will, with sacrifices and beautiful, heart-felt devotions: dances and eloquent pleas and fervent worship) often witness larger and more spectacular manifestations visible to all (surging excitement throughout the very air, and every body of every person, in the temple of Tymora [similar but more lustily stirring sensations in temples of Sune, Sharess, and Loviatar, with differing “tinges,” of course]; a rosy glow in the air over the altar in a temple of Lathander; the sounds of battle [shouts, screams, the clang of steel, the thunder of hooves, war-trumpets] being heard out of empty air in a temple of Tempus, with the clang of emphatically crossing swords to mark agreement, recognition of a sacrifice or something promised in a prayer, and so on). Certainly a cynic could say, “Ah, but it’s just the priests doing that with magical trickery! Sure, magic comes from the gods, but so do we all - - and wizards can get the power out of the gods without any of this fawning and obedience!” However, the cynic would have to ignore the dream-visions that come to him, even if he doesn’t pray. ALL of the gods are real (their power determined in part by the number and fervency of their worshippers), and the cynic would have to ignore all the signs he sees around him, daily, of the power of the gods (trees shooting up overnight from seeds blessed and planted by a priest that the cynic watched doing the planting, manifestations seen by many, and so on). The cynic could REJECT “the gods,” or A god, but that’s different than not believing in them. IMHO, you'd have to be completely mad or delusional to embrace the worship of an idea or concept over the worship of a god. (I'm going to leave demons/devils out of the equation for the moment, since they kind of bypass the normal progression of souls.) |
| BadCatMan04-27-07, 02:05 AM | But aren't many gods in themselves the concepts they represent? (At least usually within the cultural spheres in which they operate.) Ie. Mystra is Magic, Silvanus is Nature, Tempus is War, except in Mulhorand where it's Anhur instead, etc. If so, then even the most delusional of people insisting on worshipping a concept will find that they don't have a choice, and keep winding back to the god. Or they carry on blissfully or purposefully ignorant while the traditional clergy shake their heads. They could even deliberately worship nothing at all somehow, and turn out to be powering up Entropy. |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 02:08 AM | And Entropy is actually a deity in disguise! Gasp! That being said, this is why I ignore the whole silly ToT thing and the differences it brought along with the after life, including the idea of the Faithless. |
| MarkusTay6304-27-07, 03:35 PM | Isn't there an undead Druid somewhere that doesn't receive his powers from a God, but rather by venerating nature? Which brings us right back to 2e again. :P And I like calling the Feat "Potted Plant", and that is what it was named by an official-type person, so that makes it psuedo-official. :D Besides, how else am I gonna keep getting spells from my Petunia? :dancin: |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 03:53 PM | He gets his power from a god. He just thinks he doesn't. |
| Stigger04-27-07, 05:18 PM | Yet more of that elven self-delusion coming into play... :tongue: |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 05:27 PM | Wood Elven, in this case. |
| Stigger04-27-07, 06:02 PM | Still a general trait of the race... they're all messed up in the head. Drow are just more honest about it. |
| Zanan04-27-07, 06:07 PM | He gets his power from a god. He just thinks he doesn't. Do we know this for certain? It's all very vague and I would have had no problem if druids had the ability to draw from "Nature" itself (not just its deific "personification" Chauntea (methinks?)). I guess the Nature deity problem for the FR can be circumvented via the Prestige Ranger rule in Unearthed Arcana. At least I would have no qualms about that. |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 06:11 PM | That's what Ed said. And no, at this point, I'm not open to debating that fact. call it a left over bitterness from the Dark Elf discussions. ;) In fact, I don't think I'll be willing to discuss anything for awhile. I'm going to state facts and simply tell anyone who argues to shut up for a few days, probably in real life, too. That's how utterly and deeply perturbed the discussions have made me. And I have no idea why. |
| Stigger04-27-07, 06:12 PM | Canon says you gotta have the divine behind you... going by that he has to have a deity behind him, whether he chooses to acknowledge that or not. Though it is pretty much left up in the air in a lot of respects. |
| XHereticX04-27-07, 07:25 PM | Generally in Core and Planescape the archfiends and celestial paragons were more the embodiment of the specific alignment they were while the gods were more like the mortal outlook on different ideals. The outsiders also are much older than gods and are more of a "pure" representation of the alignment rather than one tainted by mortal beliefs. I know in FR this is different as the gods are shown as much older beings who seem to represent their ideals and alignment pretty well, and yet they usually fade away from existance(or so we think) when they run out of worshippers. I know that in Core the outer planes are much older than the material plane but judging by how the FR cosmology and system works it seems like the world actually started in the prime and not the outer planes. With this whole system set up it seems like the archfiends don't really fit into this new outlook very well and they seem to lack a place in the cosmology as anything besides as servants of the gods. As for the whole how clerics recieve spells from archfiends thing, the fiendish codexes specifically said that the clerics recieves the spells from the plane itself usuing the archfiend as a conduit or medium. The exception of this is Asmodeus, in which FC 2 said that he directly grants spells to his followers like a god does. No, the archfiends are not gods, but on their home planes they literally have all the powers of one. |
| Zandilar04-27-07, 08:58 PM | Heya, Canon says you gotta have the divine behind you... going by that he has to have a deity behind him, whether he chooses to acknowledge that or not. Though it is pretty much left up in the air in a lot of respects. I think a god would only tollerate that so far. They would definitely provide spells, but I think over time they'd get more insistant with the dream-visions they send. @Markus - I don't know where this particular druid lich is, but I'd say even his spells are coming from some deity with an agenda. (Which book is it in anyway?) |
| Yxunomei04-27-07, 10:49 PM | Heya, I think a god would only tollerate that so far. They would definitely provide spells, but I think over time they'd get more insistant with the dream-visions they send. @Markus - I don't know where this particular druid lich is, but I'd say even his spells are coming from some deity with an agenda. (Which book is it in anyway?) Just off the top of my head, I think its Champions of the Ruin? Also I don't believe it actually states where he gets his power from, although he says its from nature itself. There were other discussions and many thought he was being sponsored by some deity behind the scenes, ranging from Chauntia to Lloth. |
| XHereticX04-27-07, 11:16 PM | Just off the top of my head, I think its Champions of the Ruin? Also I don't believe it actually states where he gets his power from, although he says its from nature itself. There were other discussions and many thought he was being sponsored by some deity behind the scenes, ranging from Chauntia to Lloth. The lich's name is Lossywyn(I think). He is a patron of that elven supremist group whose name I think is Eldaneth Veladura or something like that. |
| GothicDan04-28-07, 01:04 AM | Lossarwyn, the Ice Lich, patron of the Eldreth Veluuthra. (Which numbers under a hundred members.) |
| Zanan04-28-07, 04:44 AM | Canon says you gotta have the divine behind you... going by that he has to have a deity behind him, whether he chooses to acknowledge that or not. Though it is pretty much left up in the air in a lot of respects. The problem with "canon" is that with every next book there can and will be exceptions. Remember the no-mixed racial clerics (yet we suddenly have drow clerics of Shar), One-step-rule disobbeying paladins of Sune (yet we have them in the very first book) ... |
| Khaelieth04-28-07, 06:59 AM | The lich's name is Lossywyn(I think). He is a patron of that elven supremist ground whose name I think is Eldaneth Veladura or something like that. We had a discussion about Lossarwyn a while ago - I think the conclusion was he got the power from a god, but we don't know which. |
| Stigger04-28-07, 07:16 AM | The problem with "canon" is that with every next book there can and will be exceptions. Remember the no-mixed racial clerics (yet we suddenly have drow clerics of Shar), One-step-rule disobbeying paladins of Sune (yet we have them in the very first book) ... Rules are made to be broken? Heh, not being one to stick to canon in my own games all that much, I say do whatever works at home. Trouble comes in when you try to discuss it around here where we the only thing we really have to go on is that canon, as contradictory as it can occassionally be at times. |
| Zandilar04-28-07, 07:31 AM | Heya, The problem with "canon" is that with every next book there can and will be exceptions. Remember the no-mixed racial clerics (yet we suddenly have drow clerics of Shar), One-step-rule disobbeying paladins of Sune (yet we have them in the very first book) ... I'm not sure what you're getting at there. First of all, I don't actually recall there ever being any kind of prohibition on non-human clerics of human deities in any edition of DnD, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. (I could be wrong here, so do correct me if I am. The one example of a drow cleric of Shar I can remember is Viconia from the Baldur's Gate game series, and that was a 2nd Edition based computer game... On the other hand, I don't think I've ever seen a Sharran drow in any printed lore for the Realms, but that doesn't mean there can't be any!) Secondly, there have always been paladins of Sune (ref: Faiths and Avatars, pg 151). The one-step-rule exception was in the FRCS to bring the Forgotten Realms 3.0e back into step with the larger body of Realms canon. |
| Stigger04-28-07, 08:23 AM | There's a Drow ranger of Auril in the Silver Marches I can think of offhand... not quite the same thing as a cleric, but as I recall she does receive spells. Though thinking about it, I'm not sure where that no-mixed racial cleric thing comes from either... never seen anything like that that I recall come to think of it. |
| Zanan04-28-07, 11:25 AM | Heya, I'm not sure what you're getting at there. First of all, I don't actually recall there ever being any kind of prohibition on non-human clerics of human deities in any edition of DnD, 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. (I could be wrong here, so do correct me if I am. The one example of a drow cleric of Shar I can remember is Viconia from the Baldur's Gate game series, and that was a 2nd Edition based computer game... On the other hand, I don't think I've ever seen a Sharran drow in any printed lore for the Realms, but that doesn't mean there can't be any!) Secondly, there have always been paladins of Sune (ref: Faiths and Avatars, pg 151). The one-step-rule exception was in the FRCS to bring the Forgotten Realms 3.0e back into step with the larger body of Realms canon. The PHB makes a definite rule for clerics, which can only be of your own race. Only exception are half-races (half-orcs, half-elves et al). No exception for human deities whatsoever, RAW. That is said in Chapter 6 under Religion. And a Sage Advice in Dragon 304 confirmed this ruling for the Realms. I have encountered enough exceptions to the rule already, as mentioned above ... and just make the observation that new books are likely to change the core rule even more. (Not that I would object to this or the change back to divine worshipper alignments as given in the Faiths & Avatars series.) |
| Mirtek04-28-07, 12:37 PM | The PHB makes a definite rule for clerics, which can only be of your own race. Actually the PHD doesn't. Page 106 says a character may not be a cleric of a "racial deity" unless he is of the right race. But most "human" deities are not racial deities (in fact, the text even says that only non-humans have racial deities), so the PHB rules do not prevent them from having non-human clerics (a drow cleric of Shar is even less a problem, because Shar isn't human at all since she already existed before the first humans in Realmspace) Also Table-6-2 allow for non-humans to select their deities "by class and alignment" beside having the option to select their racial deities. So if your an orcish cleric, you look at table 6-2 first. There you see Gruumsh OR by class and alignment. So you either chose Gruumsh or you continue to table 6-3 to see what else is allowed for your class and alignment. As a cleric table 6-3 tells you "any" deity is OK, so you can be an orc cleric of Erythnull according to both table in chapter 6 of the PHB. |
| Stigger04-28-07, 01:13 PM | Somehow I've never read that passage... ah well, I think its stupid, so I'll be ignoring it anyway. |
| MarkusTay6304-28-07, 01:37 PM | So exactly HOW MANY rules changes is Drizzt and his buddies responsible for? You know, the Ranger of Mielikki. :D He must have that Epic-level Feat (somehow) Warp Reality, which works similar to the sundering. It allows a character to do something he should not be capable of, and then reaches both back and forward in time changing reality to make it exceptable. It's SO powerful, that it even gives off an aura which affects the character's friends (as in the case of Bruenor creating a magical item back in 2e). Of course, after awhile, the inconsistancies build up to such a point that reality itself must "re-boot", causing the effect that Arcano-scientists have dubbed 'editions'. ;) And about the 'official' ruling concerning someone, like our druid friend, receiving spells from something other then a God is that a God is always behind it, one way or another. Besides the afore-mentioned Druid, we also have that whole 'Entropy thing', and it was established (in 2e, I believe) that demons and devils make deals with dark gods in order to provide their 'clergy' with spells, and the dark god in question receives a 'piece of the action' in return. I don't use that myself, but that is the gist of what I see in source and in posts by official authors at CK (like Ed). |
| XHereticX04-28-07, 04:20 PM | We had a discussion about Lossarwyn a while ago - I think the conclusion was he got the power from a god, but we don't know which. Maybe Vhaeraun, since the Eldreth Veluuthra's goals are very similar to those of the Vhaerunite clergy. But now he is dead... |
| Stigger04-28-07, 10:01 PM | I always favored Malar sponsoring Lossy... the irony of it appeals to me. |
| Yxunomei04-28-07, 11:09 PM | But most "human" deities are not racial deities (in fact, the text even says that only non-humans have racial deities), so the PHB rules do not prevent them from having non-human clerics (a drow cleric of Shar is even less a problem, because Shar isn't human at all since she already existed before the first humans in Realmspace) Shar, Mystryl, Selune, Talos, Silvanus and the like I can get as being universal dieties being available to potentially anyone with the proper alignment, but wouldn't deities such as the Dead Three (Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal), Cyric, Velsharoon, Midnight, the Red Knight and such be strictly "human deities"? I mean personally, I would never even consider placing racial restrictions on the followers of deities (I would think such beings are above such petty differences) so outside of this discussion, I wouldn't follow canon on this anyways. :cool: |
| Yxunomei04-28-07, 11:14 PM | But a little back on topic, I remember quite a few who've mentioned that they draw their powers from their respective planes and this would make sense (as I remember there is a prestige class that allows characters to draw spells from the shadow plane)... but I'm still a bit iffy on their ability to grant spells. I don't disapprove of course, god forbid cults be deprived of that power. The whole "well, their the one step just below an actual deity" thing is a bit... uncertain? What's to stop mortals from reaching that point? |
| Zanan04-29-07, 04:50 AM | Actually the PHD doesn't. Page 106 says a character may not be a cleric of a "racial deity" unless he is of the right race. But most "human" deities are not racial deities (in fact, the text even says that only non-humans have racial deities), so the PHB rules do not prevent them from having non-human clerics (a drow cleric of Shar is even less a problem, because Shar isn't human at all since she already existed before the first humans in Realmspace) Also Table-6-2 allow for non-humans to select their deities "by class and alignment" beside having the option to select their racial deities. So if your an orcish cleric, you look at table 6-2 first. There you see Gruumsh OR by class and alignment. So you either chose Gruumsh or you continue to table 6-3 to see what else is allowed for your class and alignment. As a cleric table 6-3 tells you "any" deity is OK, so you can be an orc cleric of Erythnull according to both table in chapter 6 of the PHB. I would argue that I don't buy thinking that "human" deities are something special, or super-racial, so to speak. In any case, Sage Advice as listed states ... "clerics must be of the race of the deity, yet not all divine caster must be." Hence, you could have drow rangers of Mielikki, dwarven blackguards of Bane, and what have you, but no human clerics of Lolth. RAW. YET, that this rule has been broken ever since AD&D (for e.g. I know of a human cleric of Lolth in Bezantur) and changes in e.g. CotSQ or the FRCS now simply underline my initial argument that new books are likely to water down the core stuff (or even in-setting rules) as times go by. Just to stress this, I have no problems with inter racial clerics et al, if the background of the character is reasonable enough. |
| Stigger04-29-07, 07:03 AM | Can't say I have a problem with interracial clerics at all... you worship what makes sense to you, if the racial ones don't harmonize with your way of thinking, go elsewhere. That rule is never, ever going to see use in my games... besides, you're right Zanan, it is broken all over the place. Which is a good thing really. :D |