| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| realbombchu04-26-07, 06:04 PM | I have some questions about Nobanion. First of all, what is his race? Is he a celestial lion? A celestial dire lion? A celestial that just happens to resemble a lion? What would I put for a race entry for him if I were making a new stat block for him, in other words (just like Kyuss is a male worm that walks). Second, what is his type, including sub-types? Heironeous proved that just because you are a lawful good deity doesn't mean you have both of those sub-types, and Kyuss proved that not all deities are outsiders. Do you only have those sub-types if you share them with you home plane? And with Nobanion's connection to the Gulthmere Forest, would he even be considered extraplanar. I think he would be, because he is an interloper deity, but I don't know for sure. Would he have the augmented animal sub-type? Do deities always have perfect flight? And does Nobanion always have wings, or only when he wants them? I'm already using the System Reference Document to help me out, but there are some things they don't address. I also have the relevant books, except the epic book, so if you reference something I missed, I should be able to look it up. Thanks for your help! |
| Dielzen04-26-07, 06:19 PM | Deities aren't statted, just their avatars, I thought? The only stats you get for the deity itself is their DR? |
| ripvanwormer04-26-07, 07:03 PM | I have some questions about Nobanion. First of all, what is his race? Is he a celestial lion? A celestial dire lion? A celestial that just happens to resemble a lion? This hasn't been officially revealed, but it would make sense for him to be an advanced celestial lion. Nobanion hasn't been officially statted for 3rd edition, so many of the questions you have don't have answers. However, outsider trumps most other types where deities are concerned, with the apparent exceptions of aberrations, constructs, undead, and dragons. And with Nobanion's connection to the Gulthmere Forest, would he even be considered extraplanar. Yes. His realm is either in the Beastlands or the House of Nature, depending on what cosmology you use. Either way, it isn't the Material Plane. |
| Gray Richardson04-26-07, 07:52 PM | Nobanion's divine realm is an area of the House of Nature called the Pridelands. Nobanion is an interloper god, he came to the Realms from another cosmology. Nobanion was modeled on Aslan of the Narnia books, and I believe was originally called Aslan by Ed Greenwood back in the Down to Earth Divinity article he wrote back in Dragon #54. Whether Nobanion himself actually was Aslan and interloped from Narnia (as opposed to some other unknown lion god) will never be acknowledged in official lore. But the implication is there. ;) |
| Burningspear04-27-07, 12:39 AM | Nobanion's divine realm is an area of the House of Nature called the Pridelands. Nobanion is an interloper god, he came to the Realms from another cosmology. Nobanion was modeled on Aslan of the Narnia books, and I believe was originally called Aslan by Ed Greenwood back in the Down to Earth Divinity article he wrote back in Dragon #54. Whether Nobanion himself actually was Aslan and interloped from Narnia (as opposed to some other unknown lion god) will never be acknowledged in official lore. But the implication is there. ;) i have seen the movie, and my only reaction can be: :yuck: :coolcthul :OMG! :smirk: (regarding this implication....that is.) |
| Zandilar04-27-07, 01:26 AM | Heya, Nobanion was modeled on Aslan of the Narnia books, and I believe was originally called Aslan by Ed Greenwood back in the Down to Earth Divinity article he wrote back in Dragon #54. Whether Nobanion himself actually was Aslan and interloped from Narnia (as opposed to some other unknown lion god) will never be acknowledged in official lore. But the implication is there. ;) Yes, I do recall that too. (I have the Dragon Archive CD that came out oh so many years ago.) It's interesting because Aslan was a barely veiled allegory for the Christ of the Christian religion of Earth... So having Nobanion actually be Aslan would be walking on a crumbling cliff in the middle of a storm, given the reaction of some people to anything christlike - so I'd say, Nobanion was inspired by Aslan, but isn't actually Aslan. Ed has also mentioned several times that Nobanion and Lurue are kind of also based on the Lion and the Unicorn - the supporters of the Coat of Arms of England. |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 01:56 AM | I'd just like to note that Aslan is PRETTY significantly different than Jesus in a number of ways, even if Lewis had such a connection in mind. Revivification of divine figures is prevelant in dozens of religions and cultures. What makes it more "Jesus-like," perhaps, is his dying for Peter's "sin." But Jesus died for the sins of EVERYONE, so that we would be born without sin (if I recall correctly), whereas everyone in Narnia is still as sinful of sinless as before he was resurrected. And Peter was under direct magical compulsion by Jadis... So while that wouldn't entirely excuse his actions, I don't think they'd be considered "sins." Aslan also gave his own life KNOWING that he would be resurrected, so he had little to seemingly lose beyond being humiliated. He also gave himself up completely willingly. Jesus was persecuted by everyone around him, was betrayed at the end, etc., whereas Aslan was loved by all and betrayed by no one. His method of death - dagger on the Stone Table - also harkened back far more to pagan ceremonies than Jesus's crucifixion. Aslan was the son of the Emperor Over the Sea, not an actual aspect of him, and there was no third part of the Trinity (to my knowledge) existent in Narnia. Without this - Jesus's divinity and the Trinity - there is nothing linking it directly to Christianity, and without Christianity you're left with Judaism, who hardly thought Jesus was all he was hyped up to be; and Aslan clearly lived up to his legends... Aslan also went directly into combat when necessary, leading the people as a true patriarchal figure, as opposed to Jesus's passive method of 'leadership.' So... Yeah. There's a kernel in there, but nothing more. If one insists on calling him a Jesus allegory, one might as well call him Krishna and Baldr as well. |
| The Ubbergeek04-27-07, 11:32 AM | I like the christ-like figures, myself, albeit I always thought the mroe evident was Illmater - he sounds like a mix of pagan and christian ideas in his making. The endurance before evil, the willingness to take the torture and pain to save, the bravery of peace, etc... |
| ripvanwormer04-27-07, 12:41 PM | Ilmater's almost a direct rip-off of Issek of the Jug, a deity from the world of Nehwon. Ed Greenwood took him from 1st edition Deities & Demigods and changed his name. Issek, as Fritz Lieber presented him, was a martyr like many Christian martyrs (but not Christian; Nehwon is a polytheistic world), almost a parody of the stereotypical martyred saint. The story was humorous; Issek's cult was small, gentle, and almost entirely unknown until the rough and ready barbarian warrior Fafhrd converted and decided to butch it up, adding details that made Issek out to be a pacifist version of the barbarian heroes he knew from the sagas of his childhood. Within weeks the cult had become the most popular in the city of Lankhmar. Anyway, that's neither here nor there. Ilmater's Christlike only in the sense that martyred saints sought to emulate Christ. He's a lesser martyr-figure - an example of faith and selflessness, but not a messiah. |
| MarkusTay6304-27-07, 03:57 PM | True that, Rip. Ed 'lifted' many concepts from other works, not just the gods, but TSR had to re-write some of the names and change things a bit so as not to violate any copyrights. I'd just like to note that Aslan is PRETTY significantly different than Jesus in a number of ways, even if Lewis had such a connection in mind.Actually, the connection goes far beyond the story itself; Lewis had said that was his intention. He himself began as a doubting scientist and atheist, who denied the existance of anything that he could not see or prove on paper. Then one morning he just woke-up a changed man. He never explained what happened to him, only that he finally 'got it'. It's all about Faith Dan, and with proof their can be no faith. ;) If you want, we can continue this in private, if you like. But it is a documented fact that C.S. Lewis was a devout Christian, and some of his other 'religious' books are excellent reads, whatever your convictions. The Screwtape Letters was one of my favorites - it was basically a compiled bunch of 'letters home' from a demon to his uncle. :devil: |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 04:09 PM | I'm not sure if you're trying to disagree with me or what, Markus. I know he was a very devout man, and that Aslan had some roots connected to Jesus (I've seen that quote from him before, I think). I'm merely saying that he's hardly an allegory. |
| MarkusTay6304-27-07, 05:03 PM | Don't be touchy, Danny-poo. ;) I wasn't disagreeing with you, just pointing out that the man himself said it was an allegory, however much you feel it was a 'bad one'. You made valid points, but I think it all comes down to the basic 'he sacrificed himself for the sins of others' that Lewis was getting at. Through that sacrifice he unshackled Edmond's heart and freed him of his sin, allowing him to grow spiritually. It all has to do with seeing the good in all of us, and making whatever sacrifice neccessary to help bring that out. Or you can go the other way and just force them to live in caves for a million years... Oops, sorry... couldn't help myself. :D |
| GothicDan04-27-07, 05:12 PM | I feel stupid for having written 'Peter,' above instead of Edmund, but I'm too lazy to correct it. Also, I wasn't being hostile, but perhaps my annoyance and emoticon hatred from other threads is still a little prevalent in my 'net tone. Oops. That being said, did Lewis explicitely say that Aslan was a Jesus-allegory? If I'm remebering the quote from him correctly, he didn't say that. |
| Zandilar04-27-07, 09:13 PM | Heya, So... Yeah. There's a kernel in there, but nothing more. If one insists on calling him a Jesus allegory, one might as well call him Krishna and Baldr as well. You make excellent points, all of which I agree with. :) However, you live in America, right? As far as I know (looking in from the outside, as an Australian watching events unfold with a mixture of alarm and bemusement) the fundamentalist Christians embraced the film version of "The Lion, The Witch, and the Wardrobe" as their own, pretty much delcaring it their own Christian competition to "Brokeback Mountian." Also, C. S. Lewis was a pretty devout Christian himself, and I'm sure he had Jesus in mind when he was writing the novel. So my point isn't really that Aslan is Jesus, it's that it would be a bad idea for Nobanion to be Aslan because certian segments of society would take it completely the wrong way - and we'll end up with groups like BADD* running around with people actually listening to them again... *checks the internet* err, scratch that - it seems people still believe them... ugh. * BADD - Bothered About Dungeons and Dragons, an organisation that was around back in the 80s that actually had the police listening to them about the dangers of Dungeons and Dragons... You can find information at wikipedia about BADD and Patricia Pulling (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BADD) and here is Michael A Stackpole's Pulling Report (http://www.rpgstudies.net/stackpole/pulling_report.html) |
| GothicDan04-28-07, 01:06 AM | I never heard of them embracing the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe as "their own" (one of my favorite movies, and I don't care what you people say), but I just might not have been listening... And I misinterpretted what you meant! I thought you meant that people in FR itself would look at him askance, NOT people in real life! Problem solved. :) |
| Zandilar04-28-07, 05:04 AM | Heya, I never heard of them embracing the Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe as "their own" (one of my favorite movies, and I don't care what you people say), but I just might not have been listening... I personally loved the movie as well. I just loved the novel, and the screen version was pretty damned good for an adaption! :) It can be watched/read without any one twigging to the allegory - I know, I read it as a young teen and was entranced. It's one of the novels I blame for getting me interested in Fantasy fiction (the Dragonlance novels and just Dungeons and Dragons also have a big role to play in that happy event! :D) But yeah, there were some in the Christian community (mostly evangelical fundamentalists) who sang the praises of the Narnia movie. And I misinterpretted what you meant! I thought you meant that people in FR itself would look at him askance, NOT people in real life! Problem solved. :) Yep. :) Sorry I wasn't clearer to begin with. |
| Gray Richardson04-28-07, 12:17 PM | I found this lore from the pen (well, keyboard, actually) of Ed Greenwood himself about the origins of Nobanion (and a some interesting Lurue lore as well): Originally posted by Ed Greenwood at Candlekeep.com: "Nobanion and Lurue are, of course, the Lion and the Unicorn of British nursery rhyme fame (with all the meanings that go with that, too; they are among other things the supporters of the royal coat of arms for that country, and in many other coats of arms associated with England). Yet they’re also MUCH more than that. For me, I have to be able to imagine a deity with some awe, and I often do it by attaching to them emotions evoked by other fiction. So, the Lion is also Aslan the Lion in The Chronicles of Narnia by C.S. Lewis (Christian allegorical fantasy classics soon to appear in a Disney movie that * might * turn out to be okay, and already on film in any number of BBC adaptations down the years, some of them superb). The Narnia books are hated by some, loved by others, but chock-full of little heart-wrenching scenes regardless, and are among the top-selling English-language fiction books of all time. I didn’t mean my lion-god to BE Aslan, of course; as you saw in that DRAGON article, a lot of names were placeholders at the time, waiting for Mr. Gygax to round out the “official” (Greyhawk) pantheon. Aslan has that name because he has evoke that “awe” for me. The name “Aslan” is Indian in origin (India, not native North American), and the lion is of course a Christian symbol for ‘the King’ from way back, hence its lavish use in royal heraldry. So “Aslan” went away the moment TSR decided to publish the Realms (mustn’t lift central characters from other authors, even in homage, though I did unwittingly [i.e. I’d forgotten] sneak one direct homage into the Realms [Aglarond, for Tolkien], and beat another well-known fantasy author to a name by coincidence, coining the name “Ashaba” for the river that runs through Shadowdale years before David Eddings used it in his Malloreon books). Lurue is my own invented name, but it started almost as the deity’s ‘private’ name, with “Silverymoon” being her popular one (and, yes, the city of the same name was originally envisaged as the root and center of her faith). Not only is Lurue the Unicorn of “the Lion and the Unicorn,” she’s also the mysterious, eponymous unicorn from the children’s book THE LITTLE WHITE HORSE by Elizabeth Goudge, AND she’s also meant to evoke the Unicorn of Amber, in Roger Zelazny’s classic Amber books (where the Unicorn inspires awe even among the jaded royal family who use her as their badge). She was always meant to be mysterious, and there’s very little about her that didn’t go into POWERS & PANTHEONS that doesn’t now contradict the published Realms. Originally, Lurue WAS magic—before Julia Martin added the name “Weave” to my GenCon explanations of ‘the great web of magic that’s everywhere in Toril, binds Toril together, and IS Toril,’ Lurue was the embodiment of the Weave. As such, she could teleport without error or limit, through all barriers and spells, was immune to all known magical [and psionic] effects, could raise dead, heal, regenerate and restore with the touch of her horn—and also spew silver fire from it—and so on. Her very proximity dispels illusions and curses, purifies and neutralizes poisons and taints, and purges diseases. And on and on. [To the usual chorus of “Look, yet another all-powerful Greenwood munchkin!” I reply: Yes. Of course. This is THE all-powerful goddess, and she’s also whimsical. We can’t understand why she does what she does, so she can’t be controlled, or act like any sort of tyrannical munchkin, any more than a mountain range or an ocean can be.] She tended to be as curious as a newborn babe, utterly fearless, and kind to injured creatures. And yes, I tucked in the “patron of virgins, but can also make barren wombs bear” folklore, too. Only virgins could ride her, and those who did got that silver hair the Chosen who are Mystra’s daughters all share, and ‘wild talent’ innate magical abilities, and were marked for special tasks and achievements all their lives. The TSR designers quite rightly (given the humanocentric core of that version of AD&D, with its level and power limits on non-humans) wanted human gods to be front and center and of the greatest power and importance, so Mystra (most important to intelligent creatures trying to USE magic) became also the Guardian or Mother of the Weave, and Lurue sort of . . . danced sideways. To become the awe-inspiring mystery she is now." So Saith Ed |