Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XHereticX 04-20-07, 10:08 PM	Hi, I'm a new DM who is a little confused on the current setup of cosmology in Faerun, I read the stuff in candlekeep and such, but a few questions still linger on my mind. 1. Are there more planets in the FR Prime material besides Abeir-Toril, Glyth and the surrounding planets, and if they are, do they share the same cosmology and worship the same gods? 2. Did the interloper deities such as the elven pantheon, the mulhorandi and untheric pantheons and such come from different prime materials or did they come from other planets in the FR prime material? 3. Are the fiends native or interlopers. And if they are interlopers, did they interlope from the GH universe? 4. Are their more planes in the great tree besides the ones mentioned in the Player's Guide to Faerun? These questions have been bugging me for a while and I would truly appreciate some answers.
Shemeska the Marauder 04-21-07, 12:30 AM	1. Are there more planets in the FR Prime material besides Abeir-Toril, Glyth and the surrounding planets, and if they are, do they share the same cosmology and worship the same gods? The revised 3e FR cosmology really promotes the idea of Toril being at the center of everything, except it grudgingly accepts that other planets exist within Toril's solar system, and references have been made in various places in 3e as to worlds beyond that still within the same prime material plane, both spelljamming references and otherwise. I have absolutely no idea how the 3e FR cosmology would treat any of them with regards to planes, except possibly making a bazillion seperate and non-connected cosmologies for each planet out there. Me, I'll avoid the matter entirely ;) 2. Did the interloper deities such as the elven pantheon, the mulhorandi and untheric pantheons and such come from different prime materials or did they come from other planets in the FR prime material? The distinction is pretty much a 3e conceit, with different sources claiming different planets as different planets or seperate prime material planes. The latter use seems to have been mostly confined to very eary 3e (with creative restrictions in place that would have made it difficult to include such things) and recently we've seen more use of other planets back to being just other planets within the same prime material (Fiendish Codex I and some stuff in Dungeon magazine in particular come to mind in using that syntax). That said, the distinction hasn't come down one way or the other truly in 3e FR material. If you use the Great Wheel cosmology they're just different planets within the same prime material plane, and if you use the revised 3e FR cosmology, good question which has no real answer (and an answer may be problematic). 3. Are the fiends native or interlopers. And if they are interlopers, did they interlope from the GH universe? It hasn't been addressed at all. Their history, origins, and role within the multiverse however are incompatible with the 3e FR cosmology, so if ever covered they'd need to be rewritten, or stated to be interlopers of some sort. 4. Are their more planes in the great tree besides the ones mentioned in the Player's Guide to Faerun? *chuckle* Nominally no, but that hasn't stopped anyone from adding back planes that the cosmology retcon removed and initially claimed never ever existed. Limbo for instance was put back as of Serpent Kingdoms, making the use of Slaadi and Githzerai a bit less of a nightmare in the new cosmology. And of course you may still have issues about if any added "planes" are planes distinct to the revised cosmology, or just existing back in the Great Wheel with tenuous links to the FR cosmology. Again, I avoid the issue by still using the Great Wheel cosmology. Hopefully my answers help a bit.
Baptor 04-21-07, 01:24 AM	Yeah, there were so many conflicting and confusing issues for me with the new cosmology for 3rd I just went back to the Great Wheel as well. I gave the new stuff an honest try, but if it ain't broke don't fix it I say.
Faraer 04-21-07, 07:02 PM	*chuckle* Nominally no, but that hasn't stopped anyone from adding back planes that the cosmology retcon removed and initially claimed never ever existed.FRCS p. 258 directly implies the list is not complete but 'focuses primarily on the deities of Faerūn'.
GothicDan 04-21-07, 07:05 PM	I could have sworn PGtF contradicted that, though.
XHereticX 04-21-07, 08:28 PM	Personally, I prefer the Great Wheel myself, because it is easy to understand and makes sense in the greater planar view. But unfortunatly I am a stickler on canon and wherever wizards goes, I go. Shemmy's answers helped me a little but 3rd edition cosmology is just so perplexing with its "universes of one planet" and prime centered creation stories. I just wish wizards released more material clarifying the relationship between different primes and their outer planes. anyway, ty for the help Plus, isn't Limbo just the supreme throne before cyric took over?
Shemeska the Marauder 04-21-07, 11:16 PM	Plus, isn't Limbo just the supreme throne before cyric took over? Before Limbo itself was reintroduced into the FR cosmology, some people advanced the theory that Cyric's 3e FR plane of the Supreme Throne was Limbo renamed under his control since he'd become a deity.
Gray Richardson 04-22-07, 12:06 AM	Here is some more info with some quotes that I hope are helpful:1. Are there more planets in the FR Prime material besides Abeir-Toril, Glyth and the surrounding planets, and if they are, do they share the same cosmology and worship the same gods?Most likely no. While this has not been specifically addressed in a sourcebook in 3e, this is what Rich Baker said when asked if there was still a crystal sphere around Realmspace:[Post 1051] Author : Richard Baker Date : 05-03-05 05:16 PM Well, we haven't had cause to decide one way or the other. If you want my opinion, I think the crystal shell's still there. No reason that Faerun's stars need to be other suns zillions of miles away; it's a fantastic universe.When asked to elaborate, Rich Baker expounded further:[Post 1055] Author : Richard Baker Date : 05-04-05 11:59 AM I meant that at some interplanetary distance, Realmspace ends at the inside of the big crystal sphere. Stars are actually big glowing things on the inside surface of that sphere. Maybe there's a night-black ocean on the inside of that sphere, and you can sail around amid the stars and find all sorts of strange islands and wondrous things there. I think the cosmology is perfectly workable if you assume that's it for the Material Plane in which Toril sits. The universe is a finite size of 50 AUs, or something like that. Or, possibly, other crystal spheres bob around elsewhere deep in the phlogiston. Fritz Leiber's Nehwon has a somewhat similar cosmology. None of that is official, BTW. We know that there's Realmspace, other worlds in Realmspace, and folks that have flying ships for moving around between them. But we haven't stated in 3E whether the whole thing's encapsulated in a crystal sphere or not, and if so, whether it's a finite or infinite Material Plane.And Ed Greenwood has also said that:Toril exists within its own physical universe (as covered in Realmspace), its own cosmology (presented in the Players Guide to Faerūn), and has also had thousands of links (some of them permanent, and known as “gates”) with several parallel Prime Material Planes (hence the very name “Forgotten Realms,” which is Toril seen from the viewpoint of a real-world Earth observer).From these quotes it would seem that Toril's material universe remains substantially unchanged from the lore presented in the Realmspace supplement, that it consists of a solar system surrounded by a crystal sphere. If you want to adapt any Spelljammer concepts for use in 3e, I would suggest these two sites: http://www.spelljammer.org/ and http://www.shatteredfractine.com/ My personal solution is to consider that once you leave the crystal sphere of Realmspace you are entering into the Shadow plane, which is often called phlogiston by Spelljammers, but is actually just the way the plane of Shadow looks outside the boundaries of a crystal sphere, while within a crystal sphere Shadow looks like our more conventional understanding of it. You can assume that the Shadow plane outside the shells of crystal spheres has all the qualities of phlogiston as described in the 2e Spelljammer campaign setting.2. Did the interloper deities such as the elven pantheon, the mulhorandi and untheric pantheons and such come from different prime materials or did they come from other planets in the FR prime material?Other prime material planes. The Mulhorandi and Untheric pantheons are actually thought to have come from Earth (D&D Earth anyway) after the Imaskari brough ancient Egyptians and Mesopotamian slaves back to Faerūn through portals. Eric Boyd confirmed this, although I don't have the quote.3. Are the fiends native or interlopers. And if they are interlopers, did they interlope from the GH universe?While the origin of the fiends has not been revealed in 3e lore, it would seem they are interlopers much as the elven, mulhorandi and untheric pantheons are. My personal explanation is that Shar brought them to Realmspace through the plane of Shadow as mercenaries to fight for her against Selūne in the War of Light & Darkness.4. Are their more planes in the great tree besides the ones mentioned in the Player's Guide to Faerun?Yes, the plane of Faerie is one. The dying plane of Zigguraxus, while it is mentioned in the Lost Planes section of the PGtF, is detailed at greater length in Tom Costa's awesome pdf Prestige in the Realms (http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/PrestigeintheRealms.pdf.zip). The World Serpent Inn (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/World_Serpent.pdf) is detailed in Dragon #351 (http://paizo.com/dragon/products/issues/2007/351) and in the web supplement to the Manual of the Planes (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/World_Serpent.pdf). As Faraer mentioned above, the list in the PGtF is not meant to be exhaustive and does not rule out additional planes such as hidden planes, forgotten planes, and planes of lesser known cultures and pantheons.isn't Limbo just the supreme throne before cyric took over?Well, that is my theory. The Supreme Throne certainly had to have had another name prior to 1368 when Cyric took it over. It might have been called Limbo by the Slaadi who lived there. Although we don't know for sure if they called it that. Whether or not it was. There is definitely a Limbo in Greyhawk's Great Wheel, and Ed had this to say about Limbo in a reply to this question over on Candlekeep:January 27, 2005: Hello, all. Ed makes reply to kuje31 in the matter of Limbo: kuje, Toril exists within its own physical universe (as covered in Realmspace), its own cosmology (presented in the Players Guide to Faerūn), and has also had thousands of links (some of them permanent, and known as “gates”) with several parallel Prime Material Planes (hence the very name “Forgotten Realms,” which is Toril seen from the viewpoint of a real-world Earth observer). Real-world Earth (where I live, and Elminster finds me to pass on his tales of this wondrous world we all buy divers products about) is but one of these dozens of Prime Material Planes that Toril is, or has been (and in some cases, will be again, as gates re-open in predetermined cycles or conditions, or are re-opened by the deliberate acts of various beings) directly linked to. (Lest anyone think I’m just concocting this now as a retcon, consider the date on which issue 37 of The Dragon, as it was then, was published.) The elf realm of Faerie is one such Prime Material Plane, though it’s very different from, say, our real-world Earth (and yes, I’ll very soon answer Melfius as to how and where Faerie and Toril connect). Most of these Prime Material Planes (from which various of the “creator races” hail) are similar to Toril in that they are vaguely-medieval-level carbon-based and copious-water environments very like Toril, and one can breathe the air and drink the water if one is a resident of one plane, and steps (via gate/portal or spell) from one to the other. Most of them exist both within their own crystal spheres (Spelljammer again, although in the majority of cases the inhabitants of these alternate Prime Material Planes are entirely unaware of the existence of crystal spheres, spelljammers, phlogiston, et al) and in the cosmology described in the ‘core’ D&D rules, where Limbo very much exists. So as SERPENT KINGDOMS states, some learned thinkers of Toril believe the batrachi fled to Limbo, where they became known as slaadi. (I know they exist in Limbo, because circa issue 90 or so of DRAGON, a Canadian freelance designer by the name of Stephen Inniss [creator of the lillend “monster”] and I stopped work on a by-then-300-odd-pages manuscript detailing Limbo, when TSR’s Creative Director told us they wouldn’t be publishing any more planar products. As we all know, TSR later changed its mind.) Not only are the cosmologies connected via the various gates linking the Prime Material Planes, they’re also linked (Elminster tells me, though word of this may well not have reached those wizards who dwell on a certain coast) through their World Trees and River of Blood/River Styx (which are actually the same thing, exhibiting different properties in different places and cosmologies. I note both “places” and cosmologies because the Styx differs from place to place just within the Outer Planes of the “main D&D” or “Greyhawk” cosmology, bearing alternative names such as the River Lethe.) Obviously, the slaadi colonized the Supreme Throne from Limbo (where, after all, the githzerai are an everpresent force that opposes them). Cyric is only very recently ascended to godhood (from a cosmic viewpoint), so it’s obvious that the Supreme Throne described in the PLAYER’S GUIDE TO FAERUN is greatly changed from the features a visitor would have found on that plane not very long ago - - when the slaadi probably dominated, hunting other creatures at will. However, let me state again (for the benefit of all Seekers After Truths with whom you’ll undoubtedly be sharing this) that as with matters divine, matters cosmological are rife with speculation and things most mortals can never know or be sure about. What is “fact” when even a careful observer can’t necessarily perceive things as they are, or know he or she is interpreting what they see correctly? (I recall a humorous animated film, popular in schools in my youth, wherein aliens believe that cars are the rulers of Earth, and humans are merely parasites who occasionally issue forth from them or enter them.) So there you have it: clear as mud in utter darkness when one is submerged in it and blindfolded. :} So saith Ed. As you can see, the plane of Limbo was not reintroduced to the 3e cosmology, per se (you have to take anything Shemmy says about the Great Tree with a 50 gallon barrel of salt) because the Limbo mentioned in Serpent Kingdoms was referring to the plane of Limbo in Greyhawk's Great Wheel. Of course, that does not rule out the possibility that when the Slaadi entered the Great Tree cosmology and settled in the plane now called the Supreme Throne, that the Slaadi colonists named it Limbo after the plane they came from. Again, we don't know what it might have been called before Cyric renamed it. You might also check out this thread here The Order of the Creation of the Planes (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=302068) which discusses many of these questions and tosses out some theories and possible explanations. I hope this has been helpful to you. :coolcthul
XHereticX 04-22-07, 05:41 PM	Good stuff Gray, good stuff. I read your entire post on the order of creation of the planes and found your theories interesting. Though the only thing that still dosen't register well with me is the idea of a finate universe, but still, thanks for the answers. But didn't the Mulan come from a planet of the same name?
Old Sage 04-22-07, 07:22 PM	Eric gave the strong impression they were kidnapped from Earth in Powers & Pantheons, but did not state so explicitly. Eric also hinted about this in Volo's Guide to All Things Magical in the write up of the artifact relating to Ptah.
MarkusTay63 04-23-07, 12:29 AM	My personal solution is to consider that once you leave the crystal sphere of Realmspace you are entering into the Shadow plane, which is often called phlogiston by Spelljammers, but is actually just the way the plane of Shadow looks outside the boundaries of a crystal sphere, while within a crystal sphere Shadow looks like our more conventional understanding of it. You can assume that the Shadow plane outside the shells of crystal spheres has all the qualities of phlogiston as described in the 2e Spelljammer campaign setting.With your permission, I'd like to use this. :D I've had a similar notion (WE agree on something!), but I always pictured the Ethereal as being the Phlogiston 'outside' the sphere, and the 'border Ethereal' as being inside (it just works out nice and neat that way). However, having the Shadow plane be the new transitive plane between alternate primes sort of 'threw a monkey wrench' into the works, so to speak. So now, after all this time resisting, I may just embrace this notion, because it will help explain away something I'm working on the the Kara-Tur thread. We are trying to use at least 90% of the rules as presented in 3e OA, but we as yet are undecided exactly how to handle The Shadowlands, which is part of Rokugon (not KT), but is an intrinsic part of the rules. By merging YOUR concept with my own ideas, I'm thinking of a border realm, similar to the border ethereal, but connected to the plane of shadow instead (with the plane of Darkness being even further out, past the Prime material away from the bright center of the universe). I've tentatively called this the Shadoworld, a misty realm between planes, similar in some respects to the RL setting (if you have read any WoT books, think 'the ways'). By using this, we can still access many of the OA rules without having to alter the flavor of KT, AND I get the added benefit of using YOUR concept to explain the difference in purely physical terms between the 'shadow-border' and the 'deep Shadow' (inside and outside the Crystal Sphere). You can also sail ships into the Shadow-border (like those planes-hopping demon ships) and sail upon the shadow seas to other worlds (a'la Elric novels), or even sail into Ravenloft by acident (of course the demi-plane WOULD be located here). Ties up a few loose ends, whataya think, Grey? :)
Gray Richardson 04-24-07, 12:16 AM	It's fine with me if you use my idea. I myself got the idea from the Shattered Fractine (http://www.shatteredfractine.com/) website which suggested using the Phlogiston as another transitive plane (http://www.shatteredfractine.com/house/phlogiston3e.html) for traveling between crystal spheres, which are now separate universes or material planes in 3e. I thought that was a really nifty idea, but then again I thought it was kind of redundant since Shadow already serves that function. But then it occurred to me that phlogiston and Shadow could just be different regions or facets of the same plane. I love the idea of a border shadow region and a deep shadow region. I figure that the crystal spheres are floating and bobbing in a region of shadow called deep shadow, or phlogiston, but the border shadow region looks like shadows and reflections of the material plane. As for using the Shadow lands of Rokugan in Kara-Tur, I can think of a lot of solutions. You could certainly use a region of Shadow, which makes a goodly amount of sense. You could make it a corrupted/tainted region of Kara-Tur's Spirit World Plane. You could make it a demiplane that is attached to parts of Kara-Tur like the Sildeyuir is. Or you could make it a full fledged outer plane which is impinging on the material plane the same way that Faerie does, or the way some planes do in Eberron when they are in conjunction. Lots of different ways you could go with this.
Sliced_Mustard 04-24-07, 11:52 PM	Personally, I prefer the Great Wheel myself, because it is easy to understand and makes sense in the greater planar view. But unfortunatly I am a stickler on canon and wherever wizards goes, I go. some heretic you turned out to be. :P
Mr_Miscellany 04-25-07, 12:28 AM	It should be noted that references in current Realms Products to any plane not found in the Realms (as per the list of planes in the FRCS and Player's Guide) do not automatically mean a plane is "added back in" to the Realms Great Tree Cosmology, unless the source explicity states this is the case. It's lazy (read: wishful) thinking to conclude otherwise. I personally don't believe devils and demons were imported from anywhere. I think it's entirely reasonable to conclude they arose naturally as the planes formed. However, given the Realms penchant for linking to and from other realities, it would also make sense such creatures found their way into the Realms outer planes at some point.
Sliced_Mustard 04-25-07, 11:19 AM	It should be noted that references in current Realms Products to any plane not found in the Realms (as per the list of planes in the FRCS and Player's Guide) do not automatically mean a plane is "added back in" to the Realms Great Tree Cosmology, unless the source explicity states this is the case. It's lazy (read: wishful) thinking to conclude otherwise. this looks like a great opportunity to jokingly insult someone(s) responsible for the decision to retroactively replace the cosmology in the first place. however, none of my jokes I think would be suitable for these forums, so I shall bite my virtual tongue.
Mr_Miscellany 04-25-07, 10:01 PM	however, none of my jokes I think would be suitable for these forums, so I shall bite my virtual tongue. Good thing, too. That way I don't have to cut it off. ;)
Sliced_Mustard 04-25-07, 11:04 PM	:P go ahead... I dare ya. ;)
XHereticX 04-27-07, 05:51 PM	some heretic you turned out to be. :P Its a real oxymoron isn't it? :D Anyway, I like most of Gray's ideas. But the fact that the stars are just little lights in the sky(which would imply that the church was right all along) and a finate universe I can't accept. Plus, it says in Lost Empires of Faerun that the Mulhorandi and Untheric deities sent their avatars through the ASTRAL plane, not the plane of shadow, sigil, or the infinate staircase, the astral can only access planes in the same universe as the world they come from, so the world of the Mulan seems to be in the same cosmology as Toril. Also, a finate universe contradicts most of the planar material in the fiendish codexes, in which the fiends are focused on multiple material worlds. I know FR tends to do its fiends differently, but wizards did say they were the fiend authority for all campaign settings. Anyway, these are great ideas you are all coming along with, and I may use some of them.
Iakhovas 04-27-07, 08:48 PM	Plus, it says in Lost Empires of Faerun that the Mulhorandi and Untheric deities sent their avatars through the ASTRAL plane, not the plane of shadow, sigil, or the infinate staircase2nd-Edition sourcebooks told us the deities of the Mulan traveled to Toril through wildspace, not the Astral. This was unnecessarily changed in the 3rd-Edition FRCS and will hopefully be fixed in an upcoming sourcebook. :)
XHereticX 04-27-07, 08:52 PM	2nd-Edition sourcebooks told us the deities of the Mulan traveled to Toril through wildspace, not the Astral. This was unnecessarily changed in the 3rd-Edition FRCS and will hopefully be fixed in an upcoming sourcebook. :) then again, 2nd edition was when there was only 1 material plane so...
Gray Richardson 04-28-07, 12:55 PM	2nd-Edition sourcebooks told us the deities of the Mulan traveled to Toril through wildspace, not the Astral. This was unnecessarily changed in the 3rd-Edition FRCS and will hopefully be fixed in an upcoming sourcebook. :)Yeah, I could never quite get a handle on that change, but I just assumed it made sense somehow even if I couldn't see it. But considering it now, I figure that they still must have traveled through phlogiston in their great arks to get to Toril's crystal sphere. From there I suppose they used some sort of trick to bypass the Imaskari god barrier by entering Toril's Astral Plane. Once they got past it, they could have either entered the material plane of Realmspace and spelljammed all the way to Toril, or perhaps they stayed in the Astral the rest of the trip and materialized in Faerūn directly from the Astral. The story still tracks if you assume that the Mulan gods still traveled by spelljammer (the way they always did) but detoured into the Astral at some point in the trip to effect their little end-around.
MarkusTay63 04-28-07, 01:23 PM	Combining those errors with my (our?) concepts, could it be that the 'gods' sailed through the Deep Shadow (the Phlogiston) to reach Toril, and that the priests who recorded this event for the Mulan innaccurately referred to the Border-Shadow as the Astral, not being at all familiar with the Shadow planes? The gods would have been seen to appear 'out of thin air', so a native magic-user would assume that they used the Astral, the only known plane that connected to the Outer-Planes (which are 'beyond' the Tree cosmology, whatever system you use). Anyway, I like most of Gray's ideas. But the fact that the stars are just little lights in the sky(which would imply that the church was right all along) and a finate universe I can't accept.Actually, if you read any of the World of Tiers novels, they explain all of that away quite niftely. The only crystal sphere NOT created by the immortals in that series was that of Earth, and it was the hugest and most complex (No one knows who made it, it's one of those universal mysteries). The stars (just lights on a backdrop!) were set to revolve in such intricate patterns that it would fool even the most astute scientific minds, and would resist ALL forms of 'deeper probing'. If a ship travelled a few hundred million miles past Pluto it would just go SPLAT against the wall. Of course, in the thirty or so years since that novel was written astronomy has advanced leaps and bounds, so that simple explanation no longer holds much water. Also, I thought the concept of the 'gods' burying all of the 'dinosaur' bones was very funny. :D A lot of my Cosmological concepts come from that series, as well as the Chronicles of Amber and anything written by Michael Moorcock. Really great stuff there, and they all work with each fairly well.
Gray Richardson 04-28-07, 02:49 PM	Actually, I was thinking that the Crystal Sphere probably extends into Shadow as well as defining the boundary of the Material Plane. The Crystal Sphere is like a bubble that allows Realmspace to float in phlogiston. My theory is that Shadow looks like phlogiston outside of the Crystal Sphere, but within the boundary of the Crystal Sphere, Shadow appears like we expect it to, a shadowy reflection of the Material Plane, the Crystal Sphere not only demarcates the border between the Material Plane and Phlogiston, but also marks the transition from regular Shadow into Deep Shadow. The Crystal Sphere has portals or openings in its surface that you can travel through. The Imaskari somehow sealed these portals with a barrier that prevented access by the Mulan gods. Why it is that Shadow manifests 2 different appearances and qualities on the inside and outside of the Crystal Sphere, I don't know for sure, but can think of a couple of explanations; 1) It could be some sort of symmetry breaking like you see in quantum physics where the electromagnetic and weak nuclear forces are actually the same force but work differently depending on scale. The weak nuclear force works only at very tiny ranges inside the radius of a proton, while the electromagnetic force works on a macroscopic scale outside the nuclei of atoms. You also see symmetry breaking between two states of matter, for instance between water (a liquid) and vapor (a gas), same molecule, different appearance and properties. The Crystal Sphere would be like the surface of the liquid, which itself has the property of surface tension. Surface tension resists the passage of matter accross the boundary between the gas and liquid. The shell of a Crystal Sphere may be something similar to the property of surface tension on a cosmic scale. 2) Alternatively we could surmise that the Shadow Plane must have a material plane to reflect and be a shadow of, ergo outside the boundaries of a material plane it doesn't really reflect or shadow anything and thus has a different appearance altogether. The colors and energy you see in phlogiston might be like the static you see on a TV screen when it is not tuned to a channel or lacks a signal. It could be the Shadow Plane trying to reflect or shadow the potentiality of an empty void. Now, as for making the assumption that when the 3e writers wrote "astral plane" they made a mistake and actually should have said "shadow plane", I am not necessarily ready to jump to that conclusion. My approach is to take what was written as canon--unless of course they change it themselves in later lore. I take the written word of Realms authors and designers as if I had made a scientific measurement with finely calibrated instruments. So if it is canon, and it doesn't make sense, then it is up to us to figure out how it could make sense given what we have been told. I always assume that it must make sense somehow if we can just puzzle it out. This often requires a lot of thought and a creative approach. But to me that is half the fun of exploring the Realms' new cosmology. ;)
MarkusTay63 04-28-07, 03:18 PM	Alternatively we could surmise that the Shadow Plane must have a material plane to reflect and be a shadow of, ergo outside the boundaries of a material plane it doesn't really reflect or shadow anything and thus has a different appearance altogether. The colors and energy you see in phlogiston might be like the static you see on a TV screen when it is not tuned to a channel or lacks a signal. It could be the Shadow Plane trying to reflect or shadow the potentiality of an empty void.Okay, I'm diggin' on this BIG TIME. Definately using THAT. The 'natural' state is like the Phlogiston, and the 'shadow' state is when it has something to 'reflect'. I might want to take this a step further, and have the plane of mirrors somehow be it's diametric opposite (perhaps, taking the place of the Ethereal and 'deep' ethereal?). I see Mirrors being near the 'top' of the cosmology and mixing with the positive plane, and Shadow being near the bottom and mixing with the negative plane. Both reflect the real world (the Prime), which would somehow be sandwhiched in the middle. Now, as for making the assumption that when the 3e writers wrote "astral plane" they made a mistake and actually should have said "shadow plane", I am not necessarily ready to jump to that conclusion. My approach is to take what was written as canon--unless of course they change it themselves in later lore. I take the written word of Realms authors and designers as if I had made a scientific measurement with finely calibrated instruments. So if it is canon, and it doesn't make sense, then it is up to us to figure out how it could make sense given what we have been told. I always assume that it must make sense somehow if we can just puzzle it out. This often requires a lot of thought and a creative approach. But to me that is half the fun of exploring the Realms' new cosmology. ;)I've noticed that about you. :P The writer's themselves have gone back and 'corrected' older lore, yet you hold yourself to a higher standard. Not that there's anything wrong with that... it just makes meshing disparate lore all the harder at times. However, you do tend to make an excellent job of it. :D
XHereticX 04-28-07, 04:26 PM	Actually, I was thinking that the Crystal Sphere probably extends into Shadow as well as defining the boundary of the Material Plane. The Crystal Sphere is like a bubble that allows Realmspace to float in phlogiston. My theory is that Shadow looks like phlogiston outside of the Crystal Sphere, but within the boundary of the Crystal Sphere, Shadow appears like we expect it to, a shadowy reflection of the Material Plane, the Crystal Sphere not only demarcates the border between the Material Plane and Phlogiston, but also marks the transition from regular Shadow into Deep Shadow. The Crystal Sphere has portals or openings in its surface that you can travel through. The Imaskari somehow sealed these portals with a barrier that prevented access by the Mulan gods. Why it is that Shadow manifests 2 different appearances and qualities on the inside and outside of the Crystal Sphere, I don't know for sure, but can think of a couple of explanations; 1) It could be some sort of symmetry breaking like you see in quantum physics where the electromagnetic and weak nuclear forces are actually the same force but work differently depending on scale. The weak nuclear force works only at very tiny ranges inside the radius of a proton, while the electromagnetic force works on a macroscopic scale outside the nuclei of atoms. You also see symmetry breaking between two states of matter, for instance between water (a liquid) and vapor (a gas), same molecule, different appearance and properties. The Crystal Sphere would be like the surface of the liquid, which itself has the property of surface tension. Surface tension resists the passage of matter accross the boundary between the gas and liquid. The shell of a Crystal Sphere may be something similar to the property of surface tension on a cosmic scale. 2) Alternatively we could surmise that the Shadow Plane must have a material plane to reflect and be a shadow of, ergo outside the boundaries of a material plane it doesn't really reflect or shadow anything and thus has a different appearance altogether. The colors and energy you see in phlogiston might be like the static you see on a TV screen when it is not tuned to a channel or lacks a signal. It could be the Shadow Plane trying to reflect or shadow the potentiality of an empty void. Now, as for making the assumption that when the 3e writers wrote "astral plane" they made a mistake and actually should have said "shadow plane", I am not necessarily ready to jump to that conclusion. My approach is to take what was written as canon--unless of course they change it themselves in later lore. I take the written word of Realms authors and designers as if I had made a scientific measurement with finely calibrated instruments. So if it is canon, and it doesn't make sense, then it is up to us to figure out how it could make sense given what we have been told. I always assume that it must make sense somehow if we can just puzzle it out. This often requires a lot of thought and a creative approach. But to me that is half the fun of exploring the Realms' new cosmology. ;) There is one other possibility, Earth may be in the same universe as Toril is:eek: Anyway, the whole Astral plane thing seems to confirm an infinite universe, as all portals go through the Astral according to FRCS and the astral only connects to planets/planes in the same cosmology as Toril. Which means Faerie, earth, and that unknown orc planet are all in the torilian universe. Really travel between settings should be a rare thing or else they would have all overlapped each other by now. As much as I find the spelljammer references interesting, I don't know if there even is a wildspace anymore in 3rd edition.
ripvanwormer 04-28-07, 04:56 PM	As much as I find the spelljammer references interesting, I don't know if there even is a wildspace anymore in 3rd edition. Nobody seems to know, including the designers. But if the rule is that earlier lore is canon unless it's been explicitly contradicted, Wildspace, the phlogiston, crystal spheres and so on all still exist. Which means Faerie, earth, and that unknown orc planet are all in the torilian universe. Yep, and that universe is the same as the Spelljammer universe. Apparently, anyway. There's actually a "Faeriespace" described in module SJ3, Crystal Spheres, in the Spelljammer line. Perhaps this is the "Faerie" mentioned in Forgotten Realms products.
MarkusTay63 04-28-07, 08:25 PM	There's actually a "Faeriespace" described in module SJ3, Crystal Spheres, in the Spelljammer line. Perhaps this is the "Faerie" mentioned in Forgotten Realms products.Now there's one I missed. I thought I owned all known lore concerning Fäerie and D&D. Hmmmmm.....
Gray Richardson 04-28-07, 11:47 PM	There's actually a "Faeriespace" described in module SJ3, Crystal Spheres, in the Spelljammer line. Perhaps this is the "Faerie" mentioned in Forgotten Realms products.I have wondered that myself. There seems to be at least two "Faeries" connected to the Forgotten Realms. One is a material plane or world, and the Faeriespace in the Crystal Spheres module would seem to fit the bill for that. This could possibly be the world where the island of Tintageer was located and from where the moon and sun elves immigrated to Faerūn. Faeriespace consists of a solar system made up of a giant tree (a theme not unlike Yggdrasil or the Celestial World Tree in the FR cosmology) from which the planets and suns depend like Christmas ornaments. You can use the tree part to travel between the worlds of that system, if I recall. But there also seems to be a plane of Faerie that functions similarly to an outer plane and also a coexistent transitive plane, which may or may not be the plane of Faerie detailed in the Manual of the Planes. How these lands of "Faerie" connect to Faerūn is unclear, but will hopefully be revealed someday in the future.:elf:
Hanniball 05-01-07, 03:26 AM	I'm curious, I don't have the forgotten realms campaign setting and I'm having a brain fart at 3 in the morning, but who are the Deities of the Drow? I can only think of Llolth.
Zandilar 05-01-07, 05:02 AM	Heya, I'm curious, I don't have the forgotten realms campaign setting and I'm having a brain fart at 3 in the morning, but who are the Deities of the Drow? I can only think of Llolth. Lolth Vhaeraun Eilistraee Kiaransalee Gharaunadar Selvetarm
ClobberinTime 05-10-07, 01:55 PM	I just bought the Eberron campaign book and it got me thinking about FR alot. For one thing the current 3.0 FR cosmology is just weak weak weak, in Eberron, the cosmology influences the world alot, but in the FR its just plastered there. So in the end, I am definitely running FR in the great wheel, I used to be a fan of the new cosmology but now I'm not, Really I see the FR as being a world that is constantly being influenced by intraplanar beings. This makes the FR big, like they should be and explains why there are so many epic characters. I.e. the barriers between planes in the FR are like swiss cheese.
MarkusTay63 05-10-07, 02:36 PM	Good thought. In Elminster in Hell, it is specifically stated (by Ed himself) that one of Elminster's jobs is to find tears in the fabric of FR's 'reality' and fix them. Obviously, these tears happen from time to time, and perhaps all of the Chosen are sort of a 'cosmic police-force'. I actually like this concept a lot - The Chosen aren't so much about good and evil, but rather about protecting the Realms themselves. On a side note, I use a combination of both Cosmologies, with the tree being where the 'local' gods hang out, and the 'Wheel' where the Multi-spheric (Archtypes) powers dwell. That means that Brightwater IS physically in the tree, but Arvandor merely has a major connection to it. I have it where the 'created' races -Elves, Dwarves, gnomes, etc... have their gods in the original "Cosmic Laboratory' (the Wheel), which was set-up when the powers-that-be first created the universe. Humans were born of the Prime material, and therefore ALL of their gods SHOULD dwell there. Each prime world has it's own 'Spirit Plane' [cosmology] where these beings dwell 'seperate' from their followers, but close at hand. You can have your cake and eat it too. ;)
XHereticX 05-11-07, 09:04 PM	well, I guess I could use the tree cosmology stuff when I am in a specific FR deity's divine realm, like Arvandor and brightwater, which are both in Arborea.