Spells Known? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Spells Known? [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Duedaine
03-08-07, 11:03 AM I was curious about cleric and wizard spells known. Why is it that they do not have access to ALL spells of the levels they can cast at? I mean, they still have to prepare spells in advance. Also, there would be an rp limit on what they knew. For example, a cleric would recieve access to a spell as a reward for goin above and beyond the deity's service. Or a wizard studying undera mentor or stealing someones spell book.
Karsus the Mad
03-08-07, 11:08 AM A cleric does choose from all the spells they can cast to prepare, if their deity grants them. That's what praying is for.
Wizards can also have all spells of the ones they can cast to choose from, if he scribes them in his spellbook. He can even invent new ones. A wizard who steals someones spellbook can just copy all the spells therein and add them to his own repetoire.
MarkusTay63
03-08-07, 11:12 AM Thats new to 3e, right?

I kinda remember that it used to be only a certain number of spells a Wizard could have available, which was sort of stupid if you found someone else's spellbook and couldn't use it.

or am I remembering something wrong there? :confused:
Red_Wizard
03-08-07, 11:14 AM Or keep the stolen book, and break the cipher to use it as his own. Personally I prefer this method, as the 100gp ink scribe fee is a pain in the arse, especially when you find something handy, miles from anywhere to aquire ink.
Red_Wizard
03-08-07, 11:16 AM Thats new to 3e, right?

I kinda remember that it used to be only a certain number of spells a Wizard could have available, which was sort of stupid if you found someone else's spellbook and couldn't use it.

or am I remembering something wrong there? :confused:

No, you can descipher another persons spell book for its use, which saves precious pages in your own. At only 100 pages per book, and pages per spell equal to the spells level, you quickly fill one.

Though 2ed. had a spellfailure% chance, whenever scribing a scroll, that improved as you went up in levels.
Alac Luin
03-08-07, 06:12 PM Though 2ed. had a spellfailure% chance, whenever scribing a scroll, that improved as you went up in levels.
2ed also had a limit of know spells per level depending on intelegence. see page 16 2ed PHB.

6 spells per level- 9 INT...
14 spells per level- 17 INT...

And at 19 Int there was no limit.

From my experiance, I'm not sure that a majority of groups enforced this.
GothicDan
03-08-07, 06:32 PM My groups did - and I think it's one of 2E's rules that made a heck of a lot of sense. Intelligence is a good measure of how MUCH you could know how to apply, so to speak.
MarkusTay63
03-08-07, 06:47 PM But unfortunately, a 19 INT was nigh-on impossible to achieve back then as well.

I can understand being able to hold only a certain amount of spells in memory for imediate use, but what bothered me about the old 2e method was that you couldn't copy any of the spells from a found spellbook into your own, weather you could cast them or not, until you got another level and 'learned' them.

After all, I may not be able to speak Polish, but I could still transcribe a page of it to another page.

Of course, in D&D, the very writing of a spell is in itself magical, but I never like the whole "memorized spell matrix" concept myself. seems a little artificial, although mechanically it works fine.
Duedaine
03-08-07, 09:07 PM A cleric does choose from all the spells they can cast to prepare, if their deity grants them. That's what praying is for.
Wizards can also have all spells of the ones they can cast to choose from, if he scribes them in his spellbook. He can even invent new ones. A wizard who steals someones spellbook can just copy all the spells therein and add them to his own repetoire.

Well now I feel like a noob...
Thanks for clearing that up though
Karsus the Mad
03-08-07, 09:12 PM My groups did - and I think it's one of 2E's rules that made a heck of a lot of sense. Intelligence is a good measure of how MUCH you could know how to apply, so to speak.
I feel sorry for your group. It's one of the rules that made NO sense. "you can scribble this much in a paper book" but anything else you're screwed.. Dude, that's the most retarded rule in existence. It had nothing to do with what one KNEW. It ws what onr could SCRIBE into their spellbook. Frankly, 2e rules were the most utterly retarded rules to have ever existed in regards of spellcasting. Thank Ao that 2e means absolutely nothing when talking abot 3.0.
Alac Luin
03-08-07, 09:16 PM But unfortunately, a 19 INT was nigh-on impossible to achieve back then as well.

Depends on the group.
I played one adventure with one DM, by the end of the night my charicter raised one INT point, one STR point AND a psionic wild talent. My Fighter/Mage loved that. :)
I thought geeze, isn't this a little much?

EDIT: Oh, Yes I believe its easier to get a 19 ability score in 3ed.
GothicDan
03-08-07, 09:21 PM My last character had an Int of 19 to begin with, due to being a Fire Genasi. ;)

I feel sorry for your group. It's one of the rules that made NO sense. "you can scribble this much in a paper book" but anything else you're screwed.. Dude, that's the most retarded rule in existence. It had nothing to do with what one KNEW. It ws what onr could SCRIBE into their spellbook. Frankly, 2e rules were the most utterly retarded rules to have ever existed in regards of spellcasting. Thank Ao that 2e means absolutely nothing when talking abot 3.0.

It's good to see that we still see things so vastly differently.

To me, it wasn't just "how much you could scribble." It was how much you could scribble and UNDERSTAND, and later apply. Just because I have thousands of pages of printed physics material doesn't mean that I know how to use all of it, or even a majority of it. If I was go compile a notebook of what I actually understood from those books, and was able to apply, it would be much, much smaller.
Karsus the Mad
03-08-07, 09:34 PM My last character had an Int of 19 to begin with, due to being a Fire Genasi. ;)

It's good to see that we still see things so vastly differently.

To me, it wasn't just "how much you could scribble." It was how much you could scribble and UNDERSTAND, and later apply. Just because I have thousands of pages of printed physics material doesn't mean that I know how to use all of it, or even a majority of it. If I was go compile a notebook of what I actually understood from those books, and was able to apply, it would be much, much smaller.
IF that's how it was, I would AGREE 100%. Please don't use physics. You know me personally, and understand, such things mean as much as a little girl attempting to get me to save a sparrow from being electrocuted. I understand the termonology just as well as you, but I also have the intelligence to comprehend variations in social meaning.
BTW, from the qoute you're talking of, I've had lots to drink:D
GothicDan
03-08-07, 09:36 PM Well, that's how I saw it. Therefore, as I see myself as fairly intelligent, I would think that other intelligent people would see it the same way. I guess not everyone does. That just makes my explanation of it unique - just like how I thought it was physics that disallowed Dwarves from becoming Wizards (the magical reality innate to the given world). Just like how I don't view HP as "how much you can be hit," but as a combination of that, luck, chance, endurance, etc.
Karsus the Mad
03-08-07, 09:46 PM You're very intelligent:D
Amazingly, we came to the same conclussion:D
We're smart people:P We find results without bothering to include the common man:P
GothicDan
03-08-07, 09:52 PM Stupid common man!
Karsus the Mad
03-08-07, 09:54 PM Stupid common man!
Is that not the truth? It is...
bloody stupid common man....
Dan, when you graduate, make sure you don't have to work with the creatures....
GothicDan
03-08-07, 10:04 PM The thought makes my skin crawl! ;) *Goes back to watching bad, old animes.*
Alac Luin
03-08-07, 10:08 PM ITo me, it wasn't just "how much you could scribble." It was how much you could scribble and UNDERSTAND, and later apply.

This is the part that got me, the way the rule was is that you were penalized twice.
I saw the percent chance to lern as the aplication of this idea (being able to actually use).
To further say "There is only 8 (or whatever) that you can ever use, even if you pass the check to see if you can use it" was a further penalization.

And there was no way to unlearn a spell if you ever wanted.
With the "cast and forget system" this shouldn't be the issue, as the spell is NOT in your memory.

I remember useing those numbers as a "guidline", but never a hard fast rule.
GothicDan
03-08-07, 10:13 PM Being able to grasp a concept is MUCH different than being able to REMEMBER how to use it in the long term... But maybe I'm just a little biased since I DO study science, and I deal with that sort of thing every day. I do think it would have been better if you could try to learn different spells, though, in time (swap them out), but realistically, that wouldn't be something that could be done quickly. In general, I tend to take a very scientific approach to magic for D&D; whether this is right or wrong, it made more sense under 2E's (convoluted, to some) ruleset.
Karsus the Mad
03-08-07, 10:23 PM despite 2e ruleset, I agree....
then again, under 3e rules, I bloody will prepare 125 fireball spells...well...I utterly hate 1e-3.5 spellcasting. I hate slots...the termonology of every edition is an insult to me...I need a beer....
Alac Luin
03-08-07, 10:38 PM Being able to grasp a concept is MUCH different than being able to REMEMBER how to use it in the long term...
Being able to REMEMER a spell is more an aspect of spells per day.
(You can only REMEMER this many spells and be able to hold the magic energy in the mind)

Once the spell is cast, the spell is wiped clean from memory, so remembering it is not even a factor.
GothicDan
03-08-07, 10:40 PM Not at all. Once you take a physics test, after cramming for it, you still need to remember how to apply those concepts later. :)

In other words, once a wizard looks back at his spellbook, he still has to know what the hell he's looking at, so he doesn't have to relearn it every time.
Alac Luin
03-08-07, 10:53 PM Not at all. Once you take a physics test, after cramming for it, you still need to remember how to apply those concepts later. :)

Well, if WotC ever publishes a physics student class, I'll remember that. :)
But as for the wizard, it is clearly written in yhe 2ed PHB that the spell is wiped clean from the wizards mind.

In other words, once a wizard looks back at his spellbook, he still has to know what the hell he's looking at, so he doesn't have to relearn it every time.
And the "percent to learn a spell" is what says if what he is reading makes sence.

I think the one thing we can agree on, is that the magic system kinda sucks.
GothicDan
03-08-07, 10:55 PM Yes. But knowledge doesn't stay 100% totally fresh in your mind after you've learned it, and you can only retain so much at once. (LONG term memory I mean, here. Not short-term.)

I really don't mind the magic system, depending on the world it's applied to. I'd much rather see something like Mage: the Ascension applied to FR, though, and to Planescape.
Alac Luin
03-08-07, 11:07 PM Yes. But knowledge doesn't stay 100% totally fresh in your mind after you've learned it, and you can only retain so much at once. (LONG term memory I mean, here. Not short-term.)
The phrase "wiped from the mind" kind of imply wop[ed from memeroy period.
But I do think I see where you are comming from.
That does not mean I will agree that the rule was a good rule for gameing. :)

I really don't mind the magic system, depending on the world it's applied to. I'd much rather see something like Mage: the Ascension applied to FR, though, and to Planescape.
I'm not at all familiar with Mage: the Ascension, I may look into that if for nothing else discution sake.
Nor do I "mind" the magic system, it is just not easy to explain/justify.
Some things just don't make sence.
I like the consept of point based spell system better, but they sometimes are complicated.
GothicDan
03-08-07, 11:19 PM Mage: the Ascension is by far one of my favorite RPGs; only Planescape ranks equally. The magic system is almost entirely free form, with just nine Spheres (Life, Matter, Forces, Entropy, etc.), no spell points, no spells/day... Only Paradox limiting your magic (the tendency for consensual reality [the predefined ideas of all sentient beings' beliefs in what reality SHOULD be like]) hindering your attempts to pull off magical effects to alter reality. Like plucking a strand of a spider's web... It could end badly.

I like to expand on it, in a purely fantasy setting, and add in some physics for spice: dealing with quantum probabilities, chaos theory, spherical harmonics, resonances, damping, etc.
Alac Luin
03-09-07, 09:36 PM It sounds interesting.

But not seeing the specific rules I'm not sure how "balanced" it would be in a group of mixed classes.
I believe the wizard at low levels (in core rules) is one of the weekest classes, I can almost see this turn them much more powerful.

Though I can see that something like this can work for a mixed party starting at middleing levels (say around 7th level and higher).

One of my first reactions is that this would work much better then the current system to give the Harple family justice.

Thank you for the description. :)
I'm looking into this further.
The Cult of Ecstasy sounds intresting- but time? ehh... ;)
GothicDan
03-09-07, 10:00 PM For each Tradition, I typically assign 'Secondary Spheres,' too.

So the Order of Hermes's (my favorite) Specialty Sphere would be Forces. To me, their Secondary Spheres (2) would be Prime and Spirit.

The Cult's Specialty is Time. To me, their Secondaries would be Spirit and Mind. :)
Alac Luin
03-09-07, 10:27 PM Spirit and mind makes sence.

Something like this can possibly be done along the lines of the D&D schools to preserve the specialist wizard. (ie. Red Wizards).
Casting spells requires a d20 DC check based on effects, simmiler to a skill check.
The "createing new spells" rules can be used to help set DCs.
(use of the d20 keeps it within the d20 system :P)
Option: Each spell cast a day adds a cumulative 5 to the DC of check to cast additional spells.
This would help limit number of spells available for balance and can be tied to the idea of magic fatigue, similar to the Dragonlance.

Just speculateing right now.
This can be a fun project :)
GothicDan
03-09-07, 10:36 PM Yeah. Any time I start planning out a campaign setting, I typically utilize Mage rules, or variants of it. Converting it to D20 wouldn't be all that hard; the DC's would just have to be set appropriately.

And note that the expenditure of Quintessence (like Mana) makes spellcasting easier (lowers the difficulty), but it isn't necessary, unless you are creating something from nothing, placing enchantments on things, etc.
Alac Luin
03-09-07, 11:00 PM I'm a little leary of adding a mana bar for D&d charicters. (personal feeling).

But I can immagine useing XP to make things easier, for those "casting for my life" encounters....

DM: The DC for the effect you want is a DC 20, with the other spells you cast today that bumps it up to DC 35.
Player: *rolls 12 + 15 ranks in evocation* Got 27, I'll use 8 XP to make the check.

Certain items could also be used as a substitute (like a Rod of Absorbtion)

I may be going in a compleatly different direction with this, but heck I kind of like the direction I'm heading in. :)
GothicDan
03-09-07, 11:06 PM I really don't like the idea of using XP for that sort of thing - not the way that D&D handles it. 3E tries to make XP everything; personal experience, power, etc. I'd rather keep it separate. In Mage, one could hold up to their Avatar score (the strength of one's magical spirit) in Quintessence. But, as I said, it's not a "Mana bar," because you don't NEED it to use magic. It just makes things easier.

Like, er... Lubrication.
Alac Luin
03-09-07, 11:15 PM I know mana bar wasn't the best description, but adding another ability score for no other reason has that kind of feel (to me at least).
So I'm trying to tie it to what is already available within the rules already.
I also didn't think you (speeking to GD right now) would like the XP idea. This is why I said I may be heading in a different direction.

Another option could be every 20 points used does 1 point CON damage....
(darn I'm late for work.......)

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Duedaine 03-08-07, 11:03 AM	I was curious about cleric and wizard spells known. Why is it that they do not have access to ALL spells of the levels they can cast at? I mean, they still have to prepare spells in advance. Also, there would be an rp limit on what they knew. For example, a cleric would recieve access to a spell as a reward for goin above and beyond the deity's service. Or a wizard studying undera mentor or stealing someones spell book.
Karsus the Mad 03-08-07, 11:08 AM	A cleric does choose from all the spells they can cast to prepare, if their deity grants them. That's what praying is for. Wizards can also have all spells of the ones they can cast to choose from, if he scribes them in his spellbook. He can even invent new ones. A wizard who steals someones spellbook can just copy all the spells therein and add them to his own repetoire.
MarkusTay63 03-08-07, 11:12 AM	Thats new to 3e, right? I kinda remember that it used to be only a certain number of spells a Wizard could have available, which was sort of stupid if you found someone else's spellbook and couldn't use it. or am I remembering something wrong there? :confused:
Red_Wizard 03-08-07, 11:14 AM	Or keep the stolen book, and break the cipher to use it as his own. Personally I prefer this method, as the 100gp ink scribe fee is a pain in the arse, especially when you find something handy, miles from anywhere to aquire ink.
Red_Wizard 03-08-07, 11:16 AM	Thats new to 3e, right? I kinda remember that it used to be only a certain number of spells a Wizard could have available, which was sort of stupid if you found someone else's spellbook and couldn't use it. or am I remembering something wrong there? :confused: No, you can descipher another persons spell book for its use, which saves precious pages in your own. At only 100 pages per book, and pages per spell equal to the spells level, you quickly fill one. Though 2ed. had a spellfailure% chance, whenever scribing a scroll, that improved as you went up in levels.
Alac Luin 03-08-07, 06:12 PM	Though 2ed. had a spellfailure% chance, whenever scribing a scroll, that improved as you went up in levels. 2ed also had a limit of know spells per level depending on intelegence. see page 16 2ed PHB. 6 spells per level- 9 INT... 14 spells per level- 17 INT... And at 19 Int there was no limit. From my experiance, I'm not sure that a majority of groups enforced this.
GothicDan 03-08-07, 06:32 PM	My groups did - and I think it's one of 2E's rules that made a heck of a lot of sense. Intelligence is a good measure of how MUCH you could know how to apply, so to speak.
MarkusTay63 03-08-07, 06:47 PM	But unfortunately, a 19 INT was nigh-on impossible to achieve back then as well. I can understand being able to hold only a certain amount of spells in memory for imediate use, but what bothered me about the old 2e method was that you couldn't copy any of the spells from a found spellbook into your own, weather you could cast them or not, until you got another level and 'learned' them. After all, I may not be able to speak Polish, but I could still transcribe a page of it to another page. Of course, in D&D, the very writing of a spell is in itself magical, but I never like the whole "memorized spell matrix" concept myself. seems a little artificial, although mechanically it works fine.
Duedaine 03-08-07, 09:07 PM	A cleric does choose from all the spells they can cast to prepare, if their deity grants them. That's what praying is for. Wizards can also have all spells of the ones they can cast to choose from, if he scribes them in his spellbook. He can even invent new ones. A wizard who steals someones spellbook can just copy all the spells therein and add them to his own repetoire. Well now I feel like a noob... Thanks for clearing that up though
Karsus the Mad 03-08-07, 09:12 PM	My groups did - and I think it's one of 2E's rules that made a heck of a lot of sense. Intelligence is a good measure of how MUCH you could know how to apply, so to speak. I feel sorry for your group. It's one of the rules that made NO sense. "you can scribble this much in a paper book" but anything else you're screwed.. Dude, that's the most retarded rule in existence. It had nothing to do with what one KNEW. It ws what onr could SCRIBE into their spellbook. Frankly, 2e rules were the most utterly retarded rules to have ever existed in regards of spellcasting. Thank Ao that 2e means absolutely nothing when talking abot 3.0.
Alac Luin 03-08-07, 09:16 PM	But unfortunately, a 19 INT was nigh-on impossible to achieve back then as well. Depends on the group. I played one adventure with one DM, by the end of the night my charicter raised one INT point, one STR point AND a psionic wild talent. My Fighter/Mage loved that. :) I thought geeze, isn't this a little much? EDIT: Oh, Yes I believe its easier to get a 19 ability score in 3ed.
GothicDan 03-08-07, 09:21 PM	My last character had an Int of 19 to begin with, due to being a Fire Genasi. ;) I feel sorry for your group. It's one of the rules that made NO sense. "you can scribble this much in a paper book" but anything else you're screwed.. Dude, that's the most retarded rule in existence. It had nothing to do with what one KNEW. It ws what onr could SCRIBE into their spellbook. Frankly, 2e rules were the most utterly retarded rules to have ever existed in regards of spellcasting. Thank Ao that 2e means absolutely nothing when talking abot 3.0. It's good to see that we still see things so vastly differently. To me, it wasn't just "how much you could scribble." It was how much you could scribble and UNDERSTAND, and later apply. Just because I have thousands of pages of printed physics material doesn't mean that I know how to use all of it, or even a majority of it. If I was go compile a notebook of what I actually understood from those books, and was able to apply, it would be much, much smaller.
Karsus the Mad 03-08-07, 09:34 PM	My last character had an Int of 19 to begin with, due to being a Fire Genasi. ;) It's good to see that we still see things so vastly differently. To me, it wasn't just "how much you could scribble." It was how much you could scribble and UNDERSTAND, and later apply. Just because I have thousands of pages of printed physics material doesn't mean that I know how to use all of it, or even a majority of it. If I was go compile a notebook of what I actually understood from those books, and was able to apply, it would be much, much smaller. IF that's how it was, I would AGREE 100%. Please don't use physics. You know me personally, and understand, such things mean as much as a little girl attempting to get me to save a sparrow from being electrocuted. I understand the termonology just as well as you, but I also have the intelligence to comprehend variations in social meaning. BTW, from the qoute you're talking of, I've had lots to drink:D
GothicDan 03-08-07, 09:36 PM	Well, that's how I saw it. Therefore, as I see myself as fairly intelligent, I would think that other intelligent people would see it the same way. I guess not everyone does. That just makes my explanation of it unique - just like how I thought it was physics that disallowed Dwarves from becoming Wizards (the magical reality innate to the given world). Just like how I don't view HP as "how much you can be hit," but as a combination of that, luck, chance, endurance, etc.
Karsus the Mad 03-08-07, 09:46 PM	You're very intelligent:D Amazingly, we came to the same conclussion:D We're smart people:P We find results without bothering to include the common man:P
GothicDan 03-08-07, 09:52 PM	Stupid common man!
Karsus the Mad 03-08-07, 09:54 PM	Stupid common man! Is that not the truth? It is... bloody stupid common man.... Dan, when you graduate, make sure you don't have to work with the creatures....
GothicDan 03-08-07, 10:04 PM	The thought makes my skin crawl! ;) Goes back to watching bad, old animes.
Alac Luin 03-08-07, 10:08 PM	ITo me, it wasn't just "how much you could scribble." It was how much you could scribble and UNDERSTAND, and later apply. This is the part that got me, the way the rule was is that you were penalized twice. I saw the percent chance to lern as the aplication of this idea (being able to actually use). To further say "There is only 8 (or whatever) that you can ever use, even if you pass the check to see if you can use it" was a further penalization. And there was no way to unlearn a spell if you ever wanted. With the "cast and forget system" this shouldn't be the issue, as the spell is NOT in your memory. I remember useing those numbers as a "guidline", but never a hard fast rule.
GothicDan 03-08-07, 10:13 PM	Being able to grasp a concept is MUCH different than being able to REMEMBER how to use it in the long term... But maybe I'm just a little biased since I DO study science, and I deal with that sort of thing every day. I do think it would have been better if you could try to learn different spells, though, in time (swap them out), but realistically, that wouldn't be something that could be done quickly. In general, I tend to take a very scientific approach to magic for D&D; whether this is right or wrong, it made more sense under 2E's (convoluted, to some) ruleset.
Karsus the Mad 03-08-07, 10:23 PM	despite 2e ruleset, I agree.... then again, under 3e rules, I bloody will prepare 125 fireball spells...well...I utterly hate 1e-3.5 spellcasting. I hate slots...the termonology of every edition is an insult to me...I need a beer....
Alac Luin 03-08-07, 10:38 PM	Being able to grasp a concept is MUCH different than being able to REMEMBER how to use it in the long term... Being able to REMEMER a spell is more an aspect of spells per day. (You can only REMEMER this many spells and be able to hold the magic energy in the mind) Once the spell is cast, the spell is wiped clean from memory, so remembering it is not even a factor.
GothicDan 03-08-07, 10:40 PM	Not at all. Once you take a physics test, after cramming for it, you still need to remember how to apply those concepts later. :) In other words, once a wizard looks back at his spellbook, he still has to know what the hell he's looking at, so he doesn't have to relearn it every time.
Alac Luin 03-08-07, 10:53 PM	Not at all. Once you take a physics test, after cramming for it, you still need to remember how to apply those concepts later. :) Well, if WotC ever publishes a physics student class, I'll remember that. :) But as for the wizard, it is clearly written in yhe 2ed PHB that the spell is wiped clean from the wizards mind. In other words, once a wizard looks back at his spellbook, he still has to know what the hell he's looking at, so he doesn't have to relearn it every time. And the "percent to learn a spell" is what says if what he is reading makes sence. I think the one thing we can agree on, is that the magic system kinda sucks.
GothicDan 03-08-07, 10:55 PM	Yes. But knowledge doesn't stay 100% totally fresh in your mind after you've learned it, and you can only retain so much at once. (LONG term memory I mean, here. Not short-term.) I really don't mind the magic system, depending on the world it's applied to. I'd much rather see something like Mage: the Ascension applied to FR, though, and to Planescape.
Alac Luin 03-08-07, 11:07 PM	Yes. But knowledge doesn't stay 100% totally fresh in your mind after you've learned it, and you can only retain so much at once. (LONG term memory I mean, here. Not short-term.) The phrase "wiped from the mind" kind of imply wop[ed from memeroy period. But I do think I see where you are comming from. That does not mean I will agree that the rule was a good rule for gameing. :) I really don't mind the magic system, depending on the world it's applied to. I'd much rather see something like Mage: the Ascension applied to FR, though, and to Planescape. I'm not at all familiar with Mage: the Ascension, I may look into that if for nothing else discution sake. Nor do I "mind" the magic system, it is just not easy to explain/justify. Some things just don't make sence. I like the consept of point based spell system better, but they sometimes are complicated.
GothicDan 03-08-07, 11:19 PM	Mage: the Ascension is by far one of my favorite RPGs; only Planescape ranks equally. The magic system is almost entirely free form, with just nine Spheres (Life, Matter, Forces, Entropy, etc.), no spell points, no spells/day... Only Paradox limiting your magic (the tendency for consensual reality [the predefined ideas of all sentient beings' beliefs in what reality SHOULD be like]) hindering your attempts to pull off magical effects to alter reality. Like plucking a strand of a spider's web... It could end badly. I like to expand on it, in a purely fantasy setting, and add in some physics for spice: dealing with quantum probabilities, chaos theory, spherical harmonics, resonances, damping, etc.
Alac Luin 03-09-07, 09:36 PM	It sounds interesting. But not seeing the specific rules I'm not sure how "balanced" it would be in a group of mixed classes. I believe the wizard at low levels (in core rules) is one of the weekest classes, I can almost see this turn them much more powerful. Though I can see that something like this can work for a mixed party starting at middleing levels (say around 7th level and higher). One of my first reactions is that this would work much better then the current system to give the Harple family justice. Thank you for the description. :) I'm looking into this further. The Cult of Ecstasy sounds intresting- but time? ehh... ;)
GothicDan 03-09-07, 10:00 PM	For each Tradition, I typically assign 'Secondary Spheres,' too. So the Order of Hermes's (my favorite) Specialty Sphere would be Forces. To me, their Secondary Spheres (2) would be Prime and Spirit. The Cult's Specialty is Time. To me, their Secondaries would be Spirit and Mind. :)
Alac Luin 03-09-07, 10:27 PM	Spirit and mind makes sence. Something like this can possibly be done along the lines of the D&D schools to preserve the specialist wizard. (ie. Red Wizards). Casting spells requires a d20 DC check based on effects, simmiler to a skill check. The "createing new spells" rules can be used to help set DCs. (use of the d20 keeps it within the d20 system :P) Option: Each spell cast a day adds a cumulative 5 to the DC of check to cast additional spells. This would help limit number of spells available for balance and can be tied to the idea of magic fatigue, similar to the Dragonlance. Just speculateing right now. This can be a fun project :)
GothicDan 03-09-07, 10:36 PM	Yeah. Any time I start planning out a campaign setting, I typically utilize Mage rules, or variants of it. Converting it to D20 wouldn't be all that hard; the DC's would just have to be set appropriately. And note that the expenditure of Quintessence (like Mana) makes spellcasting easier (lowers the difficulty), but it isn't necessary, unless you are creating something from nothing, placing enchantments on things, etc.
Alac Luin 03-09-07, 11:00 PM	I'm a little leary of adding a mana bar for D&d charicters. (personal feeling). But I can immagine useing XP to make things easier, for those "casting for my life" encounters.... DM: The DC for the effect you want is a DC 20, with the other spells you cast today that bumps it up to DC 35. Player: rolls 12 + 15 ranks in evocation Got 27, I'll use 8 XP to make the check. Certain items could also be used as a substitute (like a Rod of Absorbtion) I may be going in a compleatly different direction with this, but heck I kind of like the direction I'm heading in. :)
GothicDan 03-09-07, 11:06 PM	I really don't like the idea of using XP for that sort of thing - not the way that D&D handles it. 3E tries to make XP everything; personal experience, power, etc. I'd rather keep it separate. In Mage, one could hold up to their Avatar score (the strength of one's magical spirit) in Quintessence. But, as I said, it's not a "Mana bar," because you don't NEED it to use magic. It just makes things easier. Like, er... Lubrication.
Alac Luin 03-09-07, 11:15 PM	I know mana bar wasn't the best description, but adding another ability score for no other reason has that kind of feel (to me at least). So I'm trying to tie it to what is already available within the rules already. I also didn't think you (speeking to GD right now) would like the XP idea. This is why I said I may be heading in a different direction. Another option could be every 20 points used does 1 point CON damage.... (darn I'm late for work.......)