Post/Author/DateTime	Post
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-21-07, 12:47 AM	I believe that the magic portfolio should be spread among several other deities. If Mystra is supposed to have so much power that she had to give it to her chosen why not divide it up among other deities. Why give it to mortals anyway. They already have one deity that has one of the aspects of magic as his portfolio Savras has divination. What do you think?
The Simbul 02-21-07, 01:06 AM	Because the reason for her specifically choosing mortals as vessels through which to divide up and gird her power, was so she would not have to give up the magic portfolio in whole or in part to another deity. In any event, the assumption that Mystra was forced to divide her power and thus created the Chosen for that purpose, is only one of many theories explaining why the Chosen exist. There are multiple prevailing theories among the folk of Faerun as to why Mystra made mortals into Chosen, laid out in the introduction to The Seven Sisters, and all of them are just that---theories that sages in Faerun have come up with to explain the phenomenon.
SATA 02-21-07, 01:48 AM	IMHO... The problem (if there is one anyway) is that sadly in The Realms, Magic have too much importance and is said to infuse everything so that's the major reason why a single portfolio have so much power. The solution is not changing the portfolio of hands, from Mystra to any other deity, is just to clarify the fact that Magic involve and infuse and is part of absolute everything. I personally like the fact that the portfolio of Magic is not divided, like in other pantheons in: Good Magic - Neutral Magic - Evil Magic Finally, about Savras, been the god of Divination, like Velsharoon, god of Necromancy. Is not a division, they are deities of just schools of Magic, a matter of codex and ways to give form to the used magical energy. So is not a division in Magic as a whole.
Dark Wizard 02-21-07, 01:51 AM	Cyric has the Illusions portfolio. So if you want to make more magic-school gods, you're part way there. Talos wants Destructive Magic, it's easy to see him with Evocation or manipulating a godling who does.
Stigger 02-21-07, 02:38 AM	I think I'm puzzled by the vehement hatred of magic being so powerful in the realms...
Renvale999 02-21-07, 06:19 AM	I think I'm puzzled by the vehement hatred of magic being so powerful in the realms... Yeah seems to be the general consensus, not sure why though. Magic is prevelant in the Realms, maybe because of so many powerful casters. But to be honest, I don't see it being the prevailing theme in the Realms. I see it as more the High-Level Adventure, but that's just me.
Alediran 02-21-07, 07:46 AM	Well, in FR most commoners see magic at least one or two times in their lives, except in some areas, magic is not seen as an evil or unnatural force (Dragonlance). That is why magic is much more common and powerfull in this world (because it's not constantly beeing shoved around and not controled by a single ubermage (dragonlance again), and beeing an arcane player for the better part of my D&D experience, it's much more fun not having to watch my a** all the time.
Karsus the Mad 02-21-07, 09:13 AM	Mystra's Magic portfolio doesn't need to be divided up, but it does need to be defined. FR does not just have Magic, like DnD in general. Raw magic is the fundamental force of FR. Mystra's Weave (and Shar's, and psionics, table magic, pluma magic, etc, etc) are different methods of drawing the power of raw magic, but no deity has divine dominion over it. Mystra's Magic portfolio is Weave Magic only, and should be renamed to show that. Before, this was never a problem, as the Weave was the only source of drawing upon raw magic, so it was fitting, if not entirely true, that Mystra be deemed the goddess of all magic and having Magic in her portfolio caused no problems. However, with the advent of the SW, and the retcon that psionics are magic that don't draw upon a weave, it's inaccurate to have Mystra with the generic Magic portfolio, especially since the divine powers related to it specify Weave only.
Faraer 02-21-07, 12:43 PM	I believe that the magic portfolio should be spread among several other deities.There's that undefined 'should' again. According to what standard? A standard external to and out of sympathy with the Realms. It's like an agnostic or a Shintoist complaining that 'Vishnu's too powerful'.Yeah seems to be the general consensus, not sure why though.Nothing like a consensus, just a handful of people who don't understand the setting raising their voices.Before, this was never a problem, as the Weave was the only source of drawing upon raw magic, so it was fitting, if not entirely true, that Mystra be deemed the goddess of all magic and having Magic in her portfolio caused no problems.Still, magic is the Weave for most intents and purposes. The Shadow Weave is "an "echo" of the Weave, deriving its power by reflections and amplifications of the energy spillages of the Weave" -- an exception, a footnote, a shadow.
GothicDan 02-21-07, 02:52 PM	The Force pervades everything in the Star Wars universe (for the most part), does it not? To me, it makes a heck of a lot of sense to have the Weave. It's sort of like the Physics of FR applied to magic, letting magic become science.
Meldread 02-21-07, 04:30 PM	I'm in agreement with GothicDan and Karsus the Mad to varying degrees. The major problem with Mystra is that lore wise her power grossly outstrips all the other deities, making her just a hop and a skip from being an Overdeity. Now, this makes logical sense because as GothicDan and others have noted, magic is a hugely prevalent force within the Realms. Therein lays the problem. Why should any single deity be allowed to wield so much power? We're not talking about the portfolio of magic, but the Weave portfolio. In almost every instance every time Weave magic is used directly or indirectly, meaning to cast a spell or to use an item powered by the Weave, Mystra grows just a little bit stronger. This is why she wishes to see magic spread across the Realms, and why she opposes the Shadow Weave - it is not so much that Shar is evil (though that is certainly a motivating factor) - it is because she is a competitor in her monopolistic market. There have been some things done to balance out Mystra's power, such as diverting it to a large number of Chosen, who then in turn become living demi-gods wandering the world. This causes problems of its own. There was also the creation of the Shadow Weave, which also has its own problems. It would seem to me that if Ao were interested in keeping the balance that he would strip Mystra of the Weave, and have it function similar to the Force in Star Wars. It would, in essence, be semi-sentient, able to repair itself and able to defend itself against attack. This would make Mystra's role as keeper of the Weave moot and unnecessary. Mystra could then be demoted to an intermediate deity of Spells, or be transformed back into the mortal Midnight and the Spells portfolio given to Oghma, or transformed into a Lesser or Demigod with some minor magic related portfolio.
Faraer 02-21-07, 04:48 PM	Why should any single deity be allowed to wield so much power?There's that mysterious 'should' once more. Why 'shouldn't' she be?It would seem to me that if Ao were interested in keeping the balance that he would strip Mystra of the Weave, and have it function similar to the Force in Star Wars.So Ao isn't out to control gods' power in the sense you suggest. (And Mystra is the Weave, so she could hardly be stripped of it.)
Karsus the Mad 02-21-07, 04:57 PM	Still, magic is the Weave for most intents and purposes. The Shadow Weave is "an "echo" of the Weave, deriving its power by reflections and amplifications of the energy spillages of the Weave" -- an exception, a footnote, a shadow. Magic is drawn from the Weave and it is the most prevalent method of doing so, so yes for most intents and purposes it can be thought of as being magic itself. Certainly the typical Faerunian would see it as such, and the church of Mystra would most certainly support that. Most times this isn't a problem. But it isn't magic itself. It's a divine construct that allows mortals to safely harness the powers of raw magic, but is not the source of magic. The shadow weave is likewise a divine construct that allows mortals to safely (well, depending on Shars mood:D ) to access the powers of raw magic. Psions are in effect their own weave, using the power of their mind to draw on raw magic. Table and pluma are likewise methods of harnessing raw magic without tapping into a weave. 99% of the time such specifics aren't important and don't have any effect at the gaming table, but they are never the less important distinctions about magic in FR (especially now in 3.5, with all the bloody forms of magic floating around.). FR, unlike general DnD does not have just "Magic", but a plethora of types. If Mystra truly did control ALL magic (such as being the source of raw magic) and this was reflected in her abilities, then it'd be 100% correct to list just Magic in her portfolio, but she does not. This is evident in the fact that all her portfolio related abilities are Weave-only. If they have to stat out divine powers and abilities, they should at least note such dinstinctions in portfolios (like the big C should have elven magic, and not just Magic). Meh. Just one of the minor problems that come about when applying a generic rules set to a story setting:)
Faraer 02-21-07, 05:39 PM	We should remember that the 'portfolio' listings are rough guides -- not exact definitions, which I think are unwise and impossible in the ineffable spheres of divinity. For instance, it isn't as simple as saying that the Weave is a conduit for 'raw magic' and separate from it, since Mystra's essence and nature is the blue-white silver fire.
Karsus the Mad 02-21-07, 05:53 PM	We should remember that the 'portfolio' listings are rough guides -- not exact definitions, which I think are unwise and impossible in the ineffable spheres of divinity. True on that. They don't need to be exact either, but it would be nice to have them less generic when a more specific definition would prevent any confusion. Then again, I find it distasteful to stat deities and their powers (or lack thereof) to begin with. For instance, it isn't as simple as saying that the Weave is a conduit for 'raw magic' and separate from it, since Mystra's essence and nature is the blue-white silver fire. Depending on the source, silverfire is raw Weave energy, not raw magic. Other sources use the term raw magic. Then again, some sources use spell/silverfire and raw magic and raw weave magic interchangingly, which merely adds even more layers of minor, seemingly, inconsistencies. Funny what a few lil' words can do:) Or it's just me. I like concrete facts, even if I disagree with them and ignore them in my own game.
Meldread 02-21-07, 07:19 PM	Faraer, Lorewise Mystra is more or less the most powerful deity in the entire setting, second only to Ao himself. Personally, I'm not a big fan of having an Overdeity - but that's alright, I can deal with that. However, do you think it is a good idea to concentrate so much divine power into a single deity that, in effect, that deity could potentially crush all other deities? Without Ao or the Shadow Weave, there would be little stopping Mystra from doing whatever she wanted. The Shadow Weave, in my mind, is not so much the "evil counterpart" to the Weave, but rather the balancing force in the Realm's that keeps Mystra's power in check. If for some reason Ao were to disappear tomorrow, Mystra could potentially go after her enemies but they would always have the ability to turn to the Shadow Weave. This would, in turn, strengthen Shar, who would then, in turn, threaten Mystra. Personally, with the introduction of the Shadow Weave, I am fully in favor of allowing Mystra to do what she likes with the Weave to create more direct competition. I believe it is not only more interesting, but desirable, to have at least another deity who is comparable in power to Mystra - easily her equal. As for the portfolios, I agree with KtM that they should be slightly more specific. In general this is not a problem, but in certain circumstances it may be important to know. Especially when it comes to Mystra's spell's portfolio, does that portfolio cover ALL spells, or only spells in how they interact with the Weave? Also Ao could, if he wanted, separate Midnight from the Weave. It could easily be within the scope of his power - killing her and then instantly resurrecting her (in her mortal form) could be one method.
Faraer 02-21-07, 08:14 PM	I don't take the existence of Ao very seriously in the first place: he's a plot device created for an ill-considered RSE. But given his existence, he's so great and alien and distant from human concerns that I don't see much use in speculating on how he 'thinks' or what he 'wants'. Talking about Ao breaking up Mystra's portfolio sounds to me like human politics -- like the Treaty of Versaille -- not anything an overgod would do, let alone should do. Mystra is the Lady of Mysteries. Magic is in some way an integral part of all reality, but the way it is is mysterious! And should stay so. Most likely the distance between god and overgod is too great for Ao to be 'worried'. We don't know if Mystra could make war in the way you suggest, or how might happen if she did (though we know she hasn't for tens of thousands of years). Maybe it's not possible to split up Mystra's portfolio. There's far too much uncertainty to proclaim what would 'make sense' or 'should happen'. I think this kind of god discussion is too airy and speculative to live. Big strings of unknowable ifs. I find it hard to put much weight at all on the Shadow Weave -- a sop by Wizards to the 'Mystra's too powerful' voices which I suspect should never have been introduced. But Ed created the Faerûnian pantheon for storytelling reasons -- 99% through the priesthood -- not primarily theological ones. And Mystra in her current form (or, better, her pre-Midnight form) works very well for those. I honestly don't understand the antipathy some people have to Mystra, but -- misinformation and prejudice theoretically put aside -- it comes down to world-building sensibility. And while no one has to conform theirs to Ed's, neither 'should' the published Realms conform to theirs.
BrennonGoldeye 02-21-07, 08:29 PM	Depending on the source, silverfire is raw Weave energy, not raw magic. Other sources use the term raw magic. Then again, some sources use spell/silverfire and raw magic and raw weave magic interchangingly, which merely adds even more layers of minor, seemingly, inconsistencies. To humbly borrow a phrase, Indeed.:)
Meldread 02-21-07, 09:06 PM	Faraer- I agree about Ao. He is a horrible concept, and the way he was introduced makes him even worse. He is more of an "Overdaddy" than "Overgod", who seems to exist only to spank his children (the Gods) when they get uppity or out of hand. His main goal, as far as I can tell, is to uphold the idea of balance, and outside of that he does not seem to interfere. I guess I really only have one question: Do you think Mystra is too powerful? If not, then why?
MaskedOne 02-21-07, 09:09 PM	If Mystra truly controlled all forms of supernatural power then I could almost sympathise with the lets weaken, fry, replace the Lady of Mysteries. However, psionics and the Shadow Weave bypass her. Greenwood has openly stated that other bypasses exist and WotC has been polite enough to provide stats for at least 3 routes that can easily be classed Weave free. Mystra's chosen while formidable and not worth the effort to kill can be misdirected, bypassed and temporarily neutralized by many epic entities. Mystra herself is distinctly limited in how she will intervene partly out of respect for AO's law and partly because she decided at the end of Crucible that it is NOT her job to dictate the fate of the mortal realms and that magic will be made open to any who don't do something psychotically stupid for as long as she has the power to guarantee it so that mortals will have the freedom to make their own path instead of having Mystra play tyrant (yes, yes, the whole Mystra WILLINGLY opening the Weave to all is downplayed in favor of the AO threatening her life argument, there are certain portions of that trial that the universe doesn't bother remembering). This has moved from a semi-sympathic cause to downright tiresome especially when we have three semi-active distaste for Lady Magic threads going on at once.
Karsus the Mad 02-21-07, 09:23 PM	I guess I really only have one question: Do you think Mystra is too powerful? If not, then why? No. While she's a megalith of divine power, she's extremely restricted (either by Ao's decree, her own will, or that annoying lil' thing called 'responsibility to ones portfolio') in how she exerts that power, especially if she attempts to exert her power outside her portfolio.
Dark Wizard 02-21-07, 09:29 PM	I guess I really only have one question: Do you think Mystra is too powerful? If not, then why? And I have a counter question: Why do you think Mystra is too powerful? As opposed to Chauntea who is Toril, or Lathander with nearly unrivaled mastery of the sun. Kelemvor who is death incarnate.
Faraer 02-21-07, 09:30 PM	His main goal, as far as I can tell, is to uphold the idea of balance, and outside of that he does not seem to interfere.He's responsible for 'maintaining the cosmic' balance, which thankfully has never been defined but doesn't equate to 3E-style class balance or some kind of redistribution of divine wealth. He cast down the gods in the Year of Shadows because 'many of them had abdicated their responsibilities'.I guess I really only have one question: Do you think Mystra is too powerful? If not, then why?Too powerful for what? No, not by any standard that I care about. How does one argue that a mountain isn't too big? I'm not making any claim. There is nothing about Mystra's power that makes the setting less fun to play in, interesting to read about and consider, or coherent within its own terms. Moreover, since the gods rarely act directly in the Realms, and they give their followers equally big spells, for almost all practical campaign purposes, the power of any given god (lesser through greater) is meaningless and irrelevant. Casual worshippers pay homage according to circumstances; devoted followers all think their god is the greatest. Even for most notional purposes it makes no difference. The power of priesthoods is far more important. Thematically, Ed's treatment of magic generally, including Mystra, is an important and fruitful matter of the setting which I like very much and which the Mystra-'haters' haven't read the books they'd need to understand.
BadCatMan 02-21-07, 09:39 PM	Me, I was want to collect the whole set! A god of evokers and evocation magic, a god of transmuters and transmutation magic, etc to go along with Savras and Velsharoon and Leira/Cyric. I think it would be neat, if kind of silly. But would be nice to put a divine face and purpose on some of the blander forms of magic. Actually, the reason I'm posting: what is table magic and pluma magic? I'm curious to find out what these are. Are they Maztican, Zakharan or Kara-Turan, or do they exist in Faerun?
Meldread 02-21-07, 11:01 PM	To answer the questions redirected at me, I don't have a problem with Mystra's power per say. There are checks in place to keep her from running astray, but my problems with her are as follows: 1. Ao and his involvement with her. I don't like Ao in general, but the fact that he is more or less an Overdaddy, kicking deities to keep them in line annoys me to a large degree. 2. The fact that Mystra has decided, after her trial, to not uphold her alignment. Of those two things, the second irks me the most. I am not advocating that Mystra should be neutral; I think things can work out perfectly well if she maintains her good alignment. It irritates me that she is forced into a neutral stance against her will. There are alternative ways to access Raw Magic, namely the Shadow Weave, as well as other forms of magic, this makes Mystra's requirement to be neutral irrelevant. The reason behind her being forced to be neutral before was the monopoly she held on the magic market - which no longer exists. Even though Shar is evil, she has done a very good thing by bringing the Shadow Weave into existence, as it allows people to have a choice. The Shadow Weave may never become as dominate in the Realms as the Weave, but if Shar would open it up a bit more and Mystra would begin actively trying to ensure that the Weave is used only for the purpose of good... then I could imagine certain societies, namely the Drow adopting the Shadow Weave in mass, as well as the Thayans. As it stands, Mystra wholeheartedly supports the Thayans, even as they use magic for evil purposes. More than anything, things like this annoy me when it comes to Mystra. If she were neutral, it would be justifiable, but she is not - and if she were a player, I can't imagine a DM who would not begin shifting her alignment. Moreover, her responsibilities to her portfolio are colored by her alignment, not the other way around. Mystra should, in my opinion, be encouraging her Church to hunt down people who use the Weave for evil purposes, while simultaneously cutting off the worst and most powerful of the offenders. This might not sit well with some people, but I have to ask why? There is absolutely no reason that Mystra should maintain her neutral stance. It will certainly give more power to Shar, a dangerous prospect, but Shar also has many enemies who will be coveting her growing power. Cyric would be one, as would just about every other evil deity. If Shar openly attacked Mystra she would be weakened and then quickly destroyed by rivals while she is vulnerable. Mystra, on the other hand, will have support among some of the deities, Lathander readily comes to mind, and it may even strengthen her Church within the Realms. Lore and plot wise, the dynamics are far more interesting than forcing her into an unrealistic position. So here is where I stand: 1. Free Mystra. Let the character grow and expand on her own, and allow her to act within the confines of her alignment. 2. Shift Mystra to Neutral. I believe this is the road she is currently on, which I think is rather boring. 3. Kill or change Mystra, dividing up the magic portfolio and doing something with the Weave to keep it out of the hands of a single deity. Of those three things, I most prefer #1 and least prefer #2.
MarkusTay63 02-21-07, 11:10 PM	The Force pervades everything in the Star Wars universe (for the most part), does it not? To me, it makes a heck of a lot of sense to have the Weave. It's sort of like the Physics of FR applied to magic, letting magic become science.Exactly so. The 'Dark side' (Shadow weave) and the 'Light side' (Mystra's weave) of 'The Force' are just two different formulae applied to the same set of energies in order to manipulate the physical world. There could be dozens, even hundreds of other methods (psionics?) of achieving similar effects. I like Mystra JUST being the Goddess of the Weave (both magic and black girls hair ;) ); I think that is a full-time job and maintaining it should be her ONLY concern. The 'Weave' is just a short-cut that people can use now to bypas the need to manipulate 'Heavy magic' (Raw Magic). Personally, I play it that magic before Karsus's Folly didn't have the Weave. Maybe some primitive form of it, but without a lot of rules and restrictions. Its like an opering system on your computer. In computer terms, the early weave was like DOS, immensly powerful but limited, and could get you in trouble. The new and improved Weave is like Windows, it strips away a lot of the power in exchange for stability and ease of use. Of course, using this analogy, then DOS (Raw Magic) is still running underneath where stupid users can't access it. This would mean Shadow Weave users are using Macs. :P Also, I think Silver Fire is akin to using Raw Weave, and Spellfire is akin to using Raw magic. The only thing wrong with that is that it means Spellfire is inheritently more powerful, but less controlable. I think, as others have pointed out, that certain schools already lend themselves to certain gods, but I would rather have nothing 'official' concerning this. Some things are better left for the DM's to sort out for themselves.
BadCatMan 02-21-07, 11:30 PM	Personally, I play it that magic before Karsus's Folly didn't have the Weave. Maybe some primitive form of it, but without a lot of rules and restrictions. Its like an opering system on your computer. In computer terms, the early weave was like DOS, immensly powerful but limited, and could get you in trouble. The new and improved Weave is like Windows, it strips away a lot of the power in exchange for stability and ease of use. Of course, using this analogy, then DOS (Raw Magic) is still running underneath where stupid users can't access it. This would mean Shadow Weave users are using Macs. :P Then who's using Linux? The Imaskari?
MarkusTay63 02-22-07, 12:03 AM	Then who's using Linux? The Imaskari?Yup. :D You know it was all Microsoft software on the Nether Scrolls, right? ;) Its no wonder they didn't live up to the hype.
Faraer 02-22-07, 12:08 AM	Meldread, In 1989, just two years after the Realms was published as an official setting, TSR 'blew up the world' with the Avatar Crisis. Three excellent evil gods were killed for reasons no one seems to remember. In almost as myopic and pointless a move, Mystra was replaced with a new character called 'Midnight' Ariel Manx. As was done with other missteps like Doug Niles's Moonshaes and slade's Netheril, TSR and Wizards and their authors patched the setting up. In novels and sourcebooks Ed Greenwood has described the gradual process of Midnight's assimilation as the 'ego' of a larger divine form, a Mystra now partly old, partly new, in whom Midnight's mortal consciousness (and alignment) is submerged. Now, for most practical purposes, Mystra is how she used to be; how Ed and the other designers want her. If applied to the official setting, your proposals undo the fix and, I think, make matters worse again, by (1) restoring to prominence a character none of the authors cares about and furthering the unfortunate misperception of the gods as superpowered mortals fostered by the Avatar novels; or (3) making more RSE trouble for people's campaigns, destroying valuable parts of the setting and bringing it yet further away from its original integrity. (2) is just book-keeping, since Mystra and many other gods don't fit neatly into the alignment system -- because of her compound nature, and because magic is overwhelmingly more important to Mystra than good or neutrality, just as Tempus for instance is about war, not disorder. Just as some people take portfolios and other game abstractions too literally, you're giving undue importance to the alignment on her 'character sheet'.
see 02-22-07, 12:12 AM	Then who's using Linux? The Imaskari? The gods run Linux on zSeries, in partitions managed by Ao, who runs z/VM. The guy Ao talks to at the end of the Avatar Trilogy? He's the corporate CEO, who owns the mainframe Ao manages and pays the power bills.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-22-07, 12:23 AM	If you look at it there is balance. Even if Ao left Mystra still couldn't take over. Ok she cuts off all magic including the gods. Ok they leave, Shar takes Darkness with her, Selune takes light, Chauntea takes the planet and each of the other deities take their own piece of existance. Well their goes the weave cause it has nothing to hold on to. Reality has left the building, unless Toril isn't tied to the gods in that way. Faraer, let me ask you a question? You state that some of us speak out because we don't understand the setting according to you. Now, do you know exactly how the realms works? Do you know every certain thing that exists about the Forgotten Realms? Let me answer before you do. You "do not". Now we who speak up have our own opinions about certain subjects. Thats what these threads are for. Saying crap like that spoils it for others. If you don't have the decency to repsect the opinions of others and stop the smarta$& comments then please keep your 2 cents for your piggy bank.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-22-07, 12:44 AM	This is what I think should be done with Mystra. Take a good portion of Mystra's power and divide it up between 3 women. 3 unknown women who are always dressed in robes of raw magic. These 3 three women will not even have an alignment, their sole existance is the protection and balance of magic and make sure that Mystra stays in line. Kinda like Jergal is with Kelemvor, even though Kelemvor is not the god of death any more he does have the power and authority to take that power away if Kelemvor fails in his duties. These 3 women could be like the Lady of Pain something beyond a deity. Mystra can tend to her duties as Goddess of Magic but have certain things in check. These three women will have no identity and only their mouths and chin are exposed. They all speak in the same voice and look exactly the same. They can be known as the Triad of Mysteries.
MarkusTay63 02-22-07, 12:49 AM	The gods run Linux on zSeries, in partitions managed by Ao, who runs z/VM. The guy Ao talks to at the end of the Avatar Trilogy? He's the corporate CEO, who owns the mainframe Ao manages and pays the power bills.I heard they were pist when the net (Weave) went down. The IT guys spent weeks reloading all of that data off the outdated tape drives. What a nightmare. But I understand Weave 3.5 boots up faster and is more reliable. :D
Meldread 02-22-07, 12:50 AM	Faraer- At least we agree that the whole Avatar thing was ill-conceived. Frankly, though I never understood why Midnight received a good alignment after being raised, because to my understanding as a mortal she was Lawful Neutral. As far as I can tell the only reason she has the good alignment was to be opposed to Cyric. (And while Cyric is a somewhat interesting deity, he really is over powered.) I would be happy if Wizards would just wipe the setting to a point back before the ToT, stop advancing the timeline, stop making novels cannon, and provide more books like the Unapproachable East for the setting. This would solve so many of our problems in one fell swoop. In any case, I would at least like to see Mystra be portrayed as a heavily conflicted deity. On the one hand she wants to do good with magic, but on the other is afraid to take a course of action due to the fact it would increase Shar's influence. This, to me, is more a believable scenario than her willingly accepting the world as it is - even if she does not act toward good ends she should at least be heavily conflicted. In fact, I believe she would be best served by refusing more and more to directly (or indirectly) intervene with mortal affairs, including the affairs of her Chosen. I could imagine Mystra becoming more with drawn, believing that it is for the best and knowing that trying to help the people of Faerun will only bring them suffering due to her ability to attract powerful enemies. I think that's the best "good" Mystra can do in her current circumstances, just to leave mortals to their own affairs and allow things to play out as they may.
BrennonGoldeye 02-22-07, 09:56 AM	Ahh, the problems with mortal alignments and Divine (mis)understanding. Although I believe that it isn't needed to split Mystra's portfolio, it could be quite fun. I wonder how many of we Fantastic Fey would ascend?;)
Alediran 02-22-07, 11:00 AM	This is what I think should be done with Mystra. Take a good portion of Mystra's power and divide it up between 3 women. 3 unknown women who are always dressed in robes of raw magic. These 3 three women will not even have an alignment, their sole existance is the protection and balance of magic and make sure that Mystra stays in line. Kinda like Jergal is with Kelemvor, even though Kelemvor is not the god of death any more he does have the power and authority to take that power away if Kelemvor fails in his duties. These 3 women could be like the Lady of Pain something beyond a deity. Mystra can tend to her duties as Goddess of Magic but have certain things in check. These three women will have no identity and only their mouths and chin are exposed. They all speak in the same voice and look exactly the same. They can be known as the Triad of Mysteries. It stinks Dragonlance all over. I've restrained my opinion about you for a long time, but like others in this boards I think that you don't have the smallest clue about what the Realms are. Is NOT a colisseum of characters. I'm sure that your whole "Mystra is ****" comes from a time where a good DM "slaped" you evil caster character (from the impressions of what you post that is the kind of character you play, otherwise you wouldn't have any problem with Mystra) because it got upity, and your DM used Mystra's salient divine ability to cut you of the Weave, wich made your character die or something similar. You still think that nothing is connected in the realms, but it is, everything is connected, Mystra would never suddenly cut everybody of the weave on a whim, there are many considerations that you small mortal mind can't begin to comprehend. The only way Mystra would cut somebody from the weave without a second thought is if somebody is researching a spell to make a DMZ, and se can also block the creation of the spell, even if it's researched by a SW user. Or she can allow it to be developed, but at the moment the research is ended, she has the chosen or anybody of his church at Mr. upity wizard to confiscate the spell.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-22-07, 12:47 PM	It stinks Dragonlance all over. I've restrained my opinion about you for a long time, but like others in this boards I think that you don't have the smallest clue about what the Realms are. Is NOT a colisseum of characters. I'm sure that your whole "Mystra is ****" comes from a time where a good DM "slaped" you evil caster character (from the impressions of what you post that is the kind of character you play, otherwise you wouldn't have any problem with Mystra) because it got upity, and your DM used Mystra's salient divine ability to cut you of the Weave, wich made your character die or something similar. You still think that nothing is connected in the realms, but it is, everything is connected, Mystra would never suddenly cut everybody of the weave on a whim, there are many considerations that you small mortal mind can't begin to comprehend. The only way Mystra would cut somebody from the weave without a second thought is if somebody is researching a spell to make a DMZ, and se can also block the creation of the spell, even if it's researched by a SW user. Or she can allow it to be developed, but at the moment the research is ended, she has the chosen or anybody of his church at Mr. upity wizard to confiscate the spell. This is what you don't seem to understand. I know how the realms works. I know the story and the cosmology. i know these things. The fact is I don't like how some things are done. That is my opinion. And no I don't know where you come up with what you think happened to my character, it must have happened to you but it didn't certainly happen to me. If you would read my other post you would see that I understand what is connected to the realms. And another thing stop talking as if we are in game, talking about our small mortal minds. Mortal people came up with this stuff, and actually the way they have the gods drawn up now they are actually easy to understand. Most people here feel that the gods of the Realms are like children and that daddy Ao has to come around a spank them sometimes. And no it doesn't stink Dragonlance all over. You apparently don't understand the workings of Krynn and their cosmology and the magic system. If you don't know what you are talking about when you takl about someone just don't say anything at all.
GothicDan 02-22-07, 12:50 PM	If you would read my other post you would see that I understand what is connected to the realms. No one on these boards who has read your posts has seen your understanding of the Realms. In fact, I beg of you two find two posters on these boards who feel this way. I'll give you one week. Go.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-22-07, 01:06 PM	No one on these boards who has read your posts has seen your understanding of the Realms. In fact, I beg of you two find two posters on these boards who feel this way. I'll give you one week. Go. And i guess cause you say so then your word is the Gospal? Anyway Karsus and MarkusTay have said something of the same things that I have said.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-22-07, 01:11 PM	I understand how the realms works like I have said before. The thing that some of you just don't seem to understand is that I am giving out my opinions or ideas. I don't like the way the realms works. I have every right to post what I feel and some changes that I feel. If you like it great, if you don't thats great too. But to sit there and type crap like "you must not understand", " you are trolling" , "you are ignorant". Grow up for god sakes. Unless you are a specific Forgotten Realms game designer and you know exactly what is going on for the setting, what has gone on and what is in store for the future because your material will be published then most of what you say is your version or your opinion. If a big flat out has something written then yes thats obvious, but if it's not then your answer isn't as true as anyone elses.
GothicDan 02-22-07, 01:52 PM	And i guess cause you say so then your word is the Gospal? Where in my statement did I imply that? Anyway Karsus and MarkusTay have said something of the same things that I have said. And ask either of them if they think you're particularly well-learned about the Realms. Not whether or not your opinions have merit; those are totally different things.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-22-07, 01:56 PM	Where in my statement did I imply that? And ask either of them if they think you're particularly well-learned about the Realms. Not whether or not your opinions have merit; those are totally different things. That is your attitude. You don't have to say something in exact words. That is your whole attitude about the whole ordeal. There you go again thinking I don't know what goes on in the realms. Just give up please, you aren't making any sense.
GothicDan 02-22-07, 02:01 PM	Giggle.
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-22-07, 02:06 PM	Giggle. A proud moment for you I guess.
Stigger 02-22-07, 04:02 PM	If I might make a suggestion of just letting it go before a mod decides to get involved... think it might be for the best.
Jax_Nightstalker 02-22-07, 05:09 PM	Agreed. Lets all take a breather for a second and get our bearings. I for one like reading what everyone has to say on certain subjects here. I'm a realms fan and truth be told there are not alot of books to get out here in Iraq on the realms so I come here to keep current. I have gotten a few books that just came out through amazon but I still like coming around to read what everyone is thinking about the Realms. Now a few of you feel that Mystra is to powerful of a goddess and should either be done away with or stripped of her power. Even though Mystra is indeed a powerful god she is not the only one just as strong or even stronger than her. I believe someone already said it but Chauntea when it comes to divine rank is indeed the strongest. And the Elven god Corellon Larethian is even stronger in divine rank than Mystra. Shar is even steven with Mystra when it comes to the ranking system and also Lathander. So don't get upset thinking that Mystra is too powerful because she is not. Remember the Realms has some many gods in it it can sometimes look sick. Should we do away with her portfolio? Naw, why mess up something that has been the same since time began in the Realms, heck at one point the first goddess of magic had time as a part of her portfolio. Mystra has plenty of help in her duties as goddess of magic from Azuth, Savas, and Velsharoon. Plus from her mortal servants too. Her power is balanced out pretty good. Now with the Shadow Weave her power is even more balanced. Also she is not the only god to have magic as a part of her domain just as Lathander is not the only sun based god in the Realms. Some of the gods in Mulhorandi Pantheon oversee magic (Horus-Re is the sun god for that Pantheon by the way), Corellone the elven chief is a god of magic, and Laduguer is a god of magic. See the thing with Mystra is the Weave, that mysteries blank of raw magic that covers Realmspace. It always needs repaired in some form or fashion because of the use of magic. She is the overseer of the Weave and from it she has access to power unknown to the rest of the gods and prehaps even Pimp Daddy AO. The thing is this yes she is strong, but not all powerful, if so Cyric wouldn't have handed her her lunch when they fought in the Prince of Lies. Yeah she may not be living out NG Alignment, she is growing as a divine being and maturing, and her mortal beginnings are being forgotten as she comes to terms with her duties and responsiblities as the goddess of magic. I don't much care for Mystra but I say leave her as is.
Evil-fuma 02-22-07, 06:03 PM	Many of you who seem to have a problem with mystra seem to want to split her power into different deities by school of magic(at least this is my understanding, if I'm wrong please correct me), or by some other means. There is one major problem with this idea. Magic comes from one source, the Weave. Know, Imagine if multiple deities were fighting for a greater control of the weave then they already have. Imagine the chaos it would cause on a planet that almost seems to rely on the weave, magic on a whole would almost be constantly changing as one Deity tries to subvert another deities portion of the weave, suddenly one type of magic wouldn't work like it used to, or maybe, one won't be allowed to use a certain portion of the weave without worshiping the Deity that owns it, wizards and other magic users would be constantly trying to adapt to the new way it works, causing almost no innovation in magic as they are all busy trying to regain their ability in a portion of magic that they used to be able to use, because a Deity had taken control of it and had made different rules for it. Having just mystra as the sole Deity of magic makes it so the weave is stable, and thus magic will constantly work in relatively the same way.
Karsus the Mad 02-22-07, 09:11 PM	And i guess cause you say so then your word is the Gospal? You truly shouldn't take it as such, despite those that state such. There's many people who claim such, and for whatever reason (usually pathetic, foolish, unable to change PoV despite the most obvious FACTS, stuck in a generic rulesset that for whatever reason they can't escape, despite the rule set changing, unable to adapt and comprehend that FR isn't real and is a game setting that will change and adapt to current modern day standards and that in the end of it, FR is meant to make money.), they feel their opinion is fact (and they will, and do, ignore anything that threatens such narrowmindedness). Well, it isn't. They often are people who they themselves are questionable in their knowledge of FR (beware those, other than Sage, that claim such dumb things as "Cuz Ed Says")If people feel Ed's words are fact, all they need to do is check Candlekeep.
GothicDan 02-22-07, 09:31 PM	Anyone who states their opinion is gospel is a moron. Anyone who has strong opinions about things based on factual evidence, typically in a well thought out manner, is someone who I'll listen to more closely. Remember, folks: just because an opinion is more or less liberal or conservative (not necessarily politically) does not make it more or less acceptable, inherently. One must analyze the opinion itself.
Alediran 02-22-07, 09:53 PM	Xun, I know very well how the magic system for Dragonlance works. I have a friend from spain that owns every single novel and manual about the setting, and I have read all the mayor novels. The begining of the saga only had Arcane magic controled by the triplets, Solinari and Nuitari who even beeing good and evil, they are more concerned about magic than morals, and clerical magic when Goldmoon became a priestes of Mishkal after a complete era where the people grew appart from the gods. When Thakisis moves Krynn from Krynnspace and becomes disconected from the gods, new forms of magic are discovered, sorcery and mysticism, the first by Palin IIRC and the second again by Goldmoon. Still you think I don't know about Dragonlance's magic? At least I do my homework.
Faraer 02-22-07, 10:08 PM	In any case, I would at least like to see Mystra be portrayed as a heavily conflicted deity.'Conflicted' sounds to me like a psychologized human being, not a deity. Still, these various pulls and needs are within Mystra, as we've seen in her scenes with Elminster.In fact, I believe she would be best served by refusing more and more to directly (or indirectly) intervene with mortal affairs, including the affairs of her Chosen.She hardly ever does as it is -- which means that PCs are almost never going to know any of this -- and perhaps neither would we if it hadn't been for a couple of questionable publishing decisions.
Karsus the Mad 02-22-07, 10:26 PM	Anyone who states their opinion is gospel is a moron. Anyone who has strong opinions about things based on factual evidence, typically in a well thought out manner, is someone who I'll listen to more closely. Sadly tho, on these boards, and others like CK, it's not the case. Anyone with imagination is frowned upon. As you say yourself, anyone who states their opinion is gospel is a moron. Most are morons then, at least those of us that are long standing members of these boards and Candlekeep. Remember, folks: just because an opinion is more or less liberal or conservative (not necessarily politically) does not make it more or less acceptable, inherently. One must analyze the opinion itself. I think you just summed up my point:D
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 02-24-07, 06:14 PM	Xun, I know very well how the magic system for Dragonlance works. I have a friend from spain that owns every single novel and manual about the setting, and I have read all the mayor novels. The begining of the saga only had Arcane magic controled by the triplets, Solinari and Nuitari who even beeing good and evil, they are more concerned about magic than morals, and clerical magic when Goldmoon became a priestes of Mishkal after a complete era where the people grew appart from the gods. When Thakisis moves Krynn from Krynnspace and becomes disconected from the gods, new forms of magic are discovered, sorcery and mysticism, the first by Palin IIRC and the second again by Goldmoon. Still you think I don't know about Dragonlance's magic? At least I do my homework. You have some of it correct but not all of it. You have the Three orders of Sorcerery who are 3 different alignments and who would blow each other up on the field set their differences aside, sit together on the council and keep order with magic. All wizards are bound by the one thing they all share and that is magic. Renegades are destroyed because they have forsaken the rules of the council and are therefore considered reckless and dangerous. They all take the Test to ween out those who are not good in magic who could danger themselves and others. It's a harsh punishment to fail the test, but it works. I much like the Dragonlance of old better then the new. You see on Krynn magic isn't rare, but you don't find most people carrying even a +1 magical dagger. Seeing a full fledged Wizard making an impressive display of magic was not a common happening. The Wizards of Krynn were looked upon as dangerous, as people who could take over the world or destroy it. Thats why two of their towers were destoyed the King Priest of Istar ordered this because he new the Wizards were the one group that could stand in his way or expose him for what he really was. Well the gods dropped the fiery mountain on him anyway. To make a long long story short, the magic on Krynn is very mysterious and not near as potent as in the Realms. Elven High magic, and epic spells, these types of spells would not be on Krynn. It's magic is not that strong. They paint a different picture of their elves than do the Realms. On Krynn an elven Wizard can only be a part of the Order of the White Robes. You were looked down upon for taking red, but branded a Dark Elf and exiled if you took up the Black. Pretty much when it comes to Krynn and all things about it, balance is the number one thing.
MaskedOne 02-24-07, 07:25 PM	Frankly, I don't Krynn is truly balanced at all. Sure, Good and Evil are forcibly kept on relatively even footing at least until the Highgod who if memory serves is GOOD decides enough is enough but they are kept so by LAW. You want to take out the head of the enemy pantheon, you lose the head of yours and she loses power automatically. No contest of power, no actual battle that forces a final strike just invoke article x of divine law, pay price, matter resolved. Sure members of the three orders can fight within rules of law set by the orders but break the bonds of law and you are lunch meat to all three sides. If any side gains true advantage whether by mortal effort or divine trickery then the other is required by divine LAW to cede something so that matters can return to status quo. A point that never seems to bother Takhisis but does wonders against the forces of good. In the meantime, chaos spends a long time in super gem. All this this in service to a twisted perception of reality. Yes, without evil, good stagnates, RIGHT INTO EVIL and as a counter to the stagnation people rediscover true good and if without an adequate force of good to counterbalance then evil turn on itself until people get tired of it and good starts gaining ground. End result is that matters balance themselves with a lot less LAW.
Soltares 02-25-07, 09:49 AM	My two coppers; Alignments kinda suck. Gods in particular shouldn't have them.
MarkusTay63 02-25-07, 03:44 PM	My two coppers; Alignments kinda suck. Gods in particular shouldn't have them.Now there's the best idea I've heard in a while. :clap:
Alediran 02-25-07, 05:36 PM	You have some of it correct but not all of it. You have the Three orders of Sorcerery who are 3 different alignments and who would blow each other up on the field set their differences aside, sit together on the council and keep order with magic. All wizards are bound by the one thing they all share and that is magic. Renegades are destroyed because they have forsaken the rules of the council and are therefore considered reckless and dangerous. They all take the Test to ween out those who are not good in magic who could danger themselves and others. It's a harsh punishment to fail the test, but it works. I much like the Dragonlance of old better then the new. You see on Krynn magic isn't rare, but you don't find most people carrying even a +1 magical dagger. Seeing a full fledged Wizard making an impressive display of magic was not a common happening. The Wizards of Krynn were looked upon as dangerous, as people who could take over the world or destroy it. Thats why two of their towers were destoyed the King Priest of Istar ordered this because he new the Wizards were the one group that could stand in his way or expose him for what he really was. Well the gods dropped the fiery mountain on him anyway. To make a long long story short, the magic on Krynn is very mysterious and not near as potent as in the Realms. Elven High magic, and epic spells, these types of spells would not be on Krynn. It's magic is not that strong. They paint a different picture of their elves than do the Realms. On Krynn an elven Wizard can only be a part of the Order of the White Robes. You were looked down upon for taking red, but branded a Dark Elf and exiled if you took up the Black. Pretty much when it comes to Krynn and all things about it, balance is the number one thing. I've read Chronicles and Legends to know about that. It's not necesary to write every single detail about the rules of magic to show that you know them.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-25-07, 06:53 PM	Mystra's Magic portfolio doesn't need to be divided up, but it does need to be defined. FR does not just have Magic, like DnD in general. Raw magic is the fundamental force of FR. Mystra's Weave (and Shar's, and psionics, table magic, pluma magic, etc, etc) are different methods of drawing the power of raw magic, but no deity has divine dominion over it. Mystra's Magic portfolio is Weave Magic only, and should be renamed to show that. Before, this was never a problem, as the Weave was the only source of drawing upon raw magic, so it was fitting, if not entirely true, that Mystra be deemed the goddess of all magic and having Magic in her portfolio caused no problems. However, with the advent of the SW, and the retcon that psionics are magic that don't draw upon a weave, it's inaccurate to have Mystra with the generic Magic portfolio, especially since the divine powers related to it specify Weave only. The fact that psionics is now deemed magic means some WtC writer has lost their marbles. If psionics is magic why even have psionics in your game? Just use magic. As for splitting up Mystra’s portfolio: I don’t see a reason to do so. I don’t like this idea of magic coming from other sources. It should all come from the same source. If you want to use different methods to access that source that’s fine.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-25-07, 07:01 PM	Many of you who seem to have a problem with mystra seem to want to split her power into different deities by school of magic(at least this is my understanding, if I'm wrong please correct me), or by some other means. There is one major problem with this idea. Magic comes from one source, the Weave. Know, Imagine if multiple deities were fighting for a greater control of the weave then they already have. Imagine the chaos it would cause on a planet that almost seems to rely on the weave, magic on a whole would almost be constantly changing as one Deity tries to subvert another deities portion of the weave, suddenly one type of magic wouldn't work like it used to, or maybe, one won't be allowed to use a certain portion of the weave without worshiping the Deity that owns it, wizards and other magic users would be constantly trying to adapt to the new way it works, causing almost no innovation in magic as they are all busy trying to regain their ability in a portion of magic that they used to be able to use, because a Deity had taken control of it and had made different rules for it. Having just mystra as the sole Deity of magic makes it so the weave is stable, and thus magic will constantly work in relatively the same way. Maybe we can do away with Mystra and just have the weave be there. If it needs fixing send the Sharn!:)
Alediran 02-26-07, 07:53 AM	I'm still wondering about what made you hate Mystra so much. Did she spanked you if you were bad? Did the Chosen killed your characters? If not, then I don't see a reason for your hating. The only remaining posibility is that you had an awful DM who loved to terrorize your characters using the gods and other powerful chraracters. Forgotten Realms is first about stories of mortals who live on Faerun. The gods rarely "meddle" with common folk because it isn't in their interest to do so. If you or your DM concentrates on the story of your characters on the world, there is no need to tear the whole pantheon down. From the mortal's point of view, gods are still entities beyond comprehension and understanding, just like in any other setting.
ShadezofDis 02-26-07, 12:29 PM	My opinion on the whole jam; Don't change anything dealing with the gods for a good long while. As it is I'm having a hell of a time working in the changes to various churchs with the ToT and subsequent RSEs into my (more or less) functioning realms (I'm still not sure if I'm going to have the Shades come back in my game, we're DR 1369 and I'm following canon to that point) so please, PLEASE, give me the time to fix what's been broke and once that's all done you can feel free to do whatever divine meddling you want :p
Boda 02-26-07, 02:39 PM	Can anyone tell me where is it stated that mystra power is reduced by the existence of the chosen?So they are demipowers(divine rank=0)? All i have read so far states that mystra divine rank is equal to shar and lesser then chauntea, but i havent read that much. If the issue:''without chosen mystra would be as powerful as Ao'' thing doesnt apply, i personally have nothing to say about mystra. She corners the magic market, but she isnt the only choice.She wants to good, fine, shar is evil enough to make up for it. The psionics is magic is pretty confusing. So ,genetic magic! And dispelling a psionic effect and viceversa is a little absurd( my point of view, nothing lore based).
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-26-07, 04:09 PM	Can anyone tell me where is it stated that mystra power is reduced by the existence of the chosen?So they are demipowers(divine rank=0)? All i have read so far states that mystra divine rank is equal to shar and lesser then chauntea, but i havent read that much. If the issue:''without chosen mystra would be as powerful as Ao'' thing doesnt apply, i personally have nothing to say about mystra. She corners the magic market, but she isnt the only choice.She wants to good, fine, shar is evil enough to make up for it. The psionics is magic is pretty confusing. So ,genetic magic! And dispelling a psionic effect and viceversa is a little absurd( my point of view, nothing lore based). Demipowers are divine rank 1 through 5. Quasi-deities are divine rank 0. Typically hero deities and children of the divine. I always wondered if the Pharaoh had a divine rank or 0.
Jax_Nightstalker 02-26-07, 04:40 PM	The Chosen of Mystra are not gods and don't have a divine rank. They are still mortals and can still die. The Blackstaff is taking a dirt nap as we speak. And I do believe one of the seven sisters got blasted away by a dragon and is now some special type of ghost. All in all the Chosen are powerful and have a number of special powers, but they are not gods.
Boda 02-26-07, 05:24 PM	So if they didnt exist, mystra would still be a GD of divine rank=18? If so, i have no issue with little lady.
Stigger 02-26-07, 09:04 PM	Doubtful she would get more powerful. It's only a theory that they hold part of her power to 'weaken' her, it's never been clearly and unequivocably stated as to why she made the Chosen one way or another.
BrennonGoldeye 02-26-07, 10:19 PM	So if they didnt exist, mystra would still be a GD of divine rank=18? If so, i have no issue with little lady. I believe this would indeed be the case, or to make some happy, she might raise to 19 but no more.:) Note that is a raise to 19 if all the Chosen returned their power, and then just barely.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-27-07, 12:32 AM	So if they didnt exist, mystra would still be a GD of divine rank=18? If so, i have no issue with little lady. The amount of power the Chosen hold for Mystra is small when compared to the entirety of her being. I’m sure she put the power in them for a specific reason. Maybe saving it for a rainy day! IE Time of Troubles. Or maybe she just wanted powerful cronies! Regardless Gods work in mysterous ways. Its not for mortal to try and figure this stuff out. I doubt it was because AO was scared of her and wanted her to spread her power around. That’s poppycock! AO is an Over-diety! He doesn’t need worshipers. Mystra does! AO has proved that he is more then capable of putting Gods and Goddesses in their place. Hell he forced Mystra to her knees in the Avatar trilogy. Even if she sponsored a bunch of demi-gods for every school of magic she would still be of the same divine rank.
Lord Karsus 02-27-07, 10:48 AM	The amount of power the Chosen hold for Mystra is small when compared to the entirety of her being. -Exactly. I doubt it was because AO was scared of her and wanted her to spread her power around. That’s poppycock! AO is an Over-diety! -I don't think that he is scared of her. I ascribe to the idea that there is some universal law in the D&D multiverse that states that a normal deity cannot X amount of power.
ShadezofDis 02-27-07, 11:09 AM	I guess this thread is a good example of my problem with the Chosen, and it's not a problem with the Chosen per say, it's a problem that the existance of the Chosen sort of "creates". IMO, gods should stay gods and mortals are NOTHING compared to their power. The powers gained by a Chosen wouldn't amount to .01 of a divine rank in my game and past the powers gained by them it's an absolute moot point if they have 10 divine ranks of power in them. The only time I can see this becoming any sort of issue would be a REALLY high level game where the PCs had to rescue a Chosen from Banites, Cyricists, Sharists or whomever, and then it wouldn't be an issue for the players, but an issue for the DM in the "how long does it take Shar to steal that essence of divinity from a Chosen" Oh, I'm getting dangerously close to ranting, I'm gonna stop now ;)
Alediran 02-27-07, 11:44 AM	I guess this thread is a good example of my problem with the Chosen, and it's not a problem with the Chosen per say, it's a problem that the existance of the Chosen sort of "creates". IMO, gods should stay gods and mortals are NOTHING compared to their power. The powers gained by a Chosen wouldn't amount to .01 of a divine rank in my game and past the powers gained by them it's an absolute moot point if they have 10 divine ranks of power in them. The only time I can see this becoming any sort of issue would be a REALLY high level game where the PCs had to rescue a Chosen from Banites, Cyricists, Sharists or whomever, and then it wouldn't be an issue for the players, but an issue for the DM in the "how long does it take Shar to steal that essence of divinity from a Chosen" If banites, cyricist or sharist por some weird planetary alignment manage to capture one of the chosen of mystra it wouldn't take too long for the others to find him/her, arrive and blast to oblivion the pathetic cult that dared to kidnap one of them.
ShadezofDis 02-27-07, 12:14 PM	If banites, cyricist or sharist por some weird planetary alignment manage to capture one of the chosen of mystra it wouldn't take too long for the others to find him/her, arrive and blast to oblivion the pathetic cult that dared to kidnap one of them. I could come up with the ways and the means by which the other Chosen couldn't get involved. That's the fun part of DMing (further, it's a good mental exercise to figure out the why's of a situation, why isn't El, the Simbul or company solving the issue, well, because of X, Y and Z)
Boda 02-27-07, 12:26 PM	Blackstaff died, sylune sort of too, so that means that the chosen arent the only heavyweights around. Maybe the chosen of shar is pretty good at hiding things. So he could capture a chosen of mystra and hide it so that the other would find.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-27-07, 01:05 PM	Death to all Chosen! Crusade against Mystra’s lackeys!
Jax_Nightstalker 02-27-07, 02:11 PM	Death to all Chosen! Crusade against Mystra’s lackeys! What about Bane's lackey Fzoul Chembryl in Zhentil Keep or Mask's lackey Cale? How about the city of Shar's lackeys floating around in Anauroch. Lets shout for the down fall of Deneir's lackey Cadderly or just burn down Candlekeep a house full of Oghma's lackeys. Or why don't we shout for the beating of Cyric's lackey who can't tell a lie even though he serves the Prince of Lies! I guess what I'm getting at is the other gods have their chosens just the same as Mystra. Why crusade against her Chosen and not against the other gods Chosen people to as well. Don't get me wrong, I don't care to much for Mystra or any of the Chosen, well I do like the Dark Elf Chosen, but I feel if you snuff this crew you might as well rant for the down fall of the Chosen of the other gods. Just my thinking.
MaskedOne 02-27-07, 02:34 PM	Blackstaff died, sylune sort of too, so that means that the chosen arent the only heavyweights around. Maybe the chosen of shar is pretty good at hiding things. So he could capture a chosen of mystra and hide it so that the other would find. On general principle, when handling Chosen, kill them, injure and leave them, distract them, trap em and leave or manipulate them. Don't kidnap them and if you are insane enough to kidnap them then hide in another world. The church of Velsharoon had to learn a rather messy lesson about kidnapping Magisters that Mystra might extend to kidnapping the Chosen. Mainly, she tended to amp up the magister's power enough override whatever containment magic was used and destroy rather messily whatever fortress, they were kept in. Mystra ignores to varying degrees a great deal that is done to her agents but certain things make her cranky. Kidnapping and holding specific people as a show of superiority and attempting to tamper with the divine power stored in her Chosen can get messy much faster than say trapping El in some form of stasis and leaving him that way for 600 years.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-27-07, 03:10 PM	What about Bane's lackey Fzoul Chembryl in Zhentil Keep or Mask's lackey Cale? How about the city of Shar's lackeys floating around in Anauroch. Lets shout for the down fall of Deneir's lackey Cadderly or just burn down Candlekeep a house full of Oghma's lackeys. Or why don't we shout for the beating of Cyric's lackey who can't tell a lie even though he serves the Prince of Lies! I guess what I'm getting at is the other gods have their chosens just the same as Mystra. Why crusade against her Chosen and not against the other gods Chosen people to as well. Don't get me wrong, I don't care to much for Mystra or any of the Chosen, well I do like the Dark Elf Chosen, but I feel if you snuff this crew you might as well rant for the down fall of the Chosen of the other gods. Just my thinking. Mainly because Mystra’s chosen are more annoying plus she has too many. We will leave her El but the rest are taking a dirt nap! Death to the Seven Sisters! Mask has a lackey? I didn’t know he was that smart!
Stigger 02-27-07, 04:38 PM	I can't see for the life of me why Mystra would give a damn about your opinion LLKN, given the rather blatant 'dislike' you have of her. You're obviously not one of the faithful, so to speak, so why would she care if you didn't like her Chosen? Suck it up and just accept and ignore their existance like a man. ;)
BrennonGoldeye 02-27-07, 05:20 PM	Mainly because Mystra’s chosen are more annoying plus she has too many. We will leave her El but the rest are taking a dirt nap! Death to the Seven Sisters! :waits: I can't see for the life of me why Mystra would give a damn about your opinion LLKN, given the rather blatant 'dislike' you have of her. You're obviously not one of the faithful, so to speak, so why would she care if you didn't like her Chosen? Suck it up and just accept and ignore their existance like a man. ;) Yes, before one of them removes your reson to act male in the first place. :waits:
Lord Karsus 02-27-07, 06:24 PM	-Why does everyone dislike Mystra, and her Chosen? For decades, no one had much of a problem with them. Then, over the last year or so, suddenly everyone hates 'em...I don't get it...:confused:
MaskedOne 02-27-07, 07:15 PM	Bloody heck, this insanity is only a year old. My memory must be going. I thought it was a bit older than that.
Lord Karsus 02-27-07, 10:40 PM	Bloody heck, this insanity is only a year old. My memory must be going. I thought it was a bit older than that. -Well, year or so. I can only really recall an influx of Mystra-haters in the past year, give or take a little bit.
Meldread 02-27-07, 10:55 PM	I stated it before and I'll state it again. The problem with the Chosen is how they impact the game world. Alediran's post is a good example of this and I think illustrates the point rather well: If banites, cyricist or sharist por some weird planetary alignment manage to capture one of the chosen of mystra it wouldn't take too long for the others to find him/her, arrive and blast to oblivion the pathetic cult that dared to kidnap one of them. Basically, after roughly level eight the D&D system becomes broken. Once you get past level 12 you're already more powerful than perhaps more than 60% of the world. There is a huge power gap. The Chosen are obviously on the high end of the power scale for obvious reasons. Now, with all those good guy Chosen they need to have equally (or near equally) powerful enemies. Thus, equally powerful villains are created. Those villains have minions, the Chosen have allies, these vary according to individual but many of them fall along the upper end of the power scale - close to or in Epic Levels. In D&D someone of this amount of power can lay waste to an entire city. They can more or less effectively conquer an entire nation without too much trouble. They can bring down entire armies with a few waves of their hand. The power they wield, while not being gods, certainly puts them in the same league. Just as I wouldn't want a deity walking around the world on a regular basis doing whatever the hell he/she/it wanted, I don't want quasi-deities (because that's what these folks are) wandering around doing the same. It unbalances the world and it breaks immersion. Certainly, -I- and those who agree with me can simply choose to ignore them. This is fine, most of us do. The problem comes when they are making changes to the setting. Take a look around, there is a Realms Shaking Event every other month practically. It's what sells books. Its how they make their money, but for me it kills the setting and breaks my immersion into it. Sure, I'm fine with one or two of these people existing. I'm fine with more if they're spread out across the world. It's when you look at them, collectively, that it becomes a problem. Mystra is the most glaring example because she has so damn many. Its like having a player who is constantly looking for the best loot, willing to do anything to win, no matter how out of character it is, who has -8 INT and CHA but doesn't play his character like that... that is what it feels like to me. And just as I would kick that player out of my group, I feel the same about Mystra. It seems like with all her Chosen she is trying to effectively break the balance of the game so that she can be "the best". I look to WotC to provide me a setting in which to play. I'm not interested in their meta plots or characters. Some people enjoy them, some people don't, I'm someone who doesn't. I just don't see why things from novels have to be canonized into the setting. I would rather leave such decisions up to the DM's.
GothicDan 02-28-07, 12:02 AM	In D&D someone of this amount of power can lay waste to an entire city. They can more or less effectively conquer an entire nation without too much trouble. They can bring down entire armies with a few waves of their hand. The power they wield, while not being gods, certainly puts them in the same league. Just as I wouldn't want a deity walking around the world on a regular basis doing whatever the hell he/she/it wanted, I don't want quasi-deities (because that's what these folks are) wandering around doing the same. It unbalances the world and it breaks immersion. .... Nukes?
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-28-07, 12:52 AM	I can't see for the life of me why Mystra would give a damn about your opinion LLKN, given the rather blatant 'dislike' you have of her. You're obviously not one of the faithful, so to speak, so why would she care if you didn't like her Chosen? Suck it up and just accept and ignore their existance like a man. ;) No, I follow another God, but only so long as it’s convenient soon I wrest divinity from the hands of the Gods themselves! Then I shall take the city of Sigil as my Throne. All shall fear the Lord of Pain!:lop: Buahahahahahahahhaaaaaahhhahhahh. Menially laughter ensues for several minutes to the point of annoyance.:rant: Oh yeah and the Mystra is going down. See I knew Bren was a Chic! Already talking about removing someone’s manhood!!!!;):rofl: Just giving you a hard time Bren. Mystra is still on my Hit list. I miss the Lawful Natural Mystra!
Stigger 02-28-07, 12:55 AM	I suspect that sums up many of the sentiments the rest of the world has towards the United States at the moment... in a sense. But that's neither here nor there. To be honest, I think you're making too much out of the Chosen and Mystra Meldread, not just with their power levels, but also of what they have actually done historically, assigning them motives and actions that just do not fit with the precedence of their behaviour and thinking... but you are of course entitled to your own opinions on the matter. Just to clarify, the entire post was referring to Meldread's post...
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-28-07, 01:03 AM	Can we have a politics free Board Stigger?:yuck: I come her to forget about how much the real world sucks
Stigger 02-28-07, 01:07 AM	I was drawing a parallel, but if it bothers you that much, I can drop the matter.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-28-07, 01:36 AM	No it’s ok. I just hate politics because it the only thing besides misunderstood Realms lore that gets me really fired up. If it helps you make a point go for it. I can agree that with the above though. Mystra’s chosen are used to often in Novels of late. I like novels that become canon, but it used to be years before the trickled down into the accessories now if you miss one book your behind the Realms lore power curve. Maybe it’s the curse of mass media and instant gratification entertainment. I don’t know, but I don’t have to like it.
Meldread 02-28-07, 02:35 AM	Stigger, You are right, but that is because you are viewing them as single individuals. If you step back and view them in the big picture, you will see that they stand atop a power pyramid. There are always people below them on the pyramid to support their power, because you don't get as far as they have without at least making a few friends. Those friends, also, are likely powerful individuals if not in physical power (levels) then in other ways that are useful. The "supporting powers" then have their lackeys, who have lackeys of their own and you can trace it all the way down to a beggar on a street corner in some non-descriptive city. The more powerful and influential the individual, the larger the base of the pyramid must be to support that individual. Elminster is what... 1162 years old? In all that time he has made friends and allies across all of the world, and many that exist on other planes - perhaps even other worlds. It would not be unreasonable to believe that he has eyes and ears in just about every corner of Faerun, and when someone is making a move against him - he will know sooner rather than later. Meaning that he can strike at you without even having to show up in person. This scope of power requires an equal scope of power. Thus, a villain with roughly the same amount of influence has to be created. This villain, too, has a pyramid on which he stands. Now, throw the other Chosen into the mix. Each of them have a pyramid on which they stand. Throw the super powered quasi-deity arch-villains into the mix and add their pyramids... and pretty soon you aren't left with much that doesn't encompass the entire setting. It's like a plague. It infects everything from the top down. It may not have much bearing on an individual game, but as your players rise in power it becomes increasingly more likely that they will at some point, for some reason, either ally with or slight one of these individuals. For me, I don't want WotC to provide characters. I want them to provide the setting. I want to be able to look in a book, read about a town, find a map of that town, know about the important people in that town, and be given adventure hooks. Then I want to zoom out from there and know more about the country in which that town resides, and I want to know about the history of the country and its neighbors, and if possible even about the town. The Forgotten Realm's has almost all of that. That is why I love the setting. It is rich, its detailed and it saves me time so I don't have to create my own. This is also why I stick with D&D because of the support it receives over other less popular systems, even though I may personally believe another system is superior. The Chosen are not so much -THE- problem, but a symptom of the problem. When it was just one or two it was okay. Having Elminster - AND JUST ELMINSTER - was alright, he is a interesting enough individual, but as more and more authors have come to the setting more and more of these... uber characters... have been created. To me, this is unacceptable. It feels like its being forced down my throat whether I like it or not. I'm glad authors are writing for the setting. I've only read one FR Novel and I liked it. It wasn't an epic book. All of the events took place in a single city and would have had little to no impact on the city itself. I enjoyed it. I cannot force myself to read some of these other books. I'm sure there are some that I would absolutely love, and I'm sure there are some I would absolutely hate. What I want is the choice to include what I love into my world while ignoring what I hate - I want the ability to choose, damn it! ;) If I want Lolth to still be an Intermediate Deity, I want the ability to do that. If I want to ignore a huge freakin' rock about the size of a city breaking up into fragments and smashing into Faerun (which would, realistically, wipe out all sentient life) I can do it. I want the ability to ignore the level 40 half-orc/half-drow/half-dragon/half-celestial/half-illithid, Chaotic Good Fighter who can single handedly take on an entire army of Orcs. I want the ability to ignore a group of adventurers of about level 5 who can single handedly stop the armies of Thay and then match wits with Szass Taim. In my Faerun, stuff like this doesn't happen. Sure, I could ignore some of those things, but I'll be penalized if I do so. An example is in a recent book one of the Tears of Selune was yanked from space and pulled down toward Toril. Something went wrong and the tear broke up in the atmosphere into various chunks and then crashed into Faerun. Sembia got hit hard, from what I hear. If Wizards ever put out a supplement dealing with the region, it will incorporate this event. I will be forced to use it or be forced to spend time to "exorcize it" from the material. For me the benefit of using a pre-made setting like the Realms is that I don't have to do the work. It's already done for me. I'm not against people who write books for the setting. The more the merrier I say, I am just against them being made into cannon. It is better this way for everyone involved. First of all, it gives each author more freedom. They can do whatever they like in their book. Want to kill Elminster? Go ahead! Want to wipe out Thay? Go ahead! It won't have an impact on the setting. Want to redo the Time of Troubles? I'll buy that book! There is even more money in it for Wizards this way, as they can release net supplements that detail the changes made to the setting after each book is published. This allows me, as a DM to read the book, decide if I like the change, and if I do plug it into my personal Faerun. It may require more work, but if I like it then I will enjoy it. I will view it as time well spent, whereas I would have spent that same amount of exorcising something I hated from the setting. Again, this is just my opinion.
Stigger 02-28-07, 03:48 AM	I can see your point there Meldread... and to a certain extent even agree with it. But for me, the Chosen are there more for flavor and the occassional deus ex machinae moments when I need to reign someone in or give them a cameo to get worked up over. I tend to think of them as something of a celebrity class of people, who everyone knows about, respects, but don't often think of, much less effect their lives. Given their life spans, of course they know a lot of people, and of course they can call on a lot of help, but that help has a lot of limitations and will only go so far, at least as far as I'm concerned. The impression I was left with in The Seven Sisters sourcebook was one of gently influencing a situation with a word here, a gift there, and perhaps a warning over that way, not some blunt instrument approach that just comes in and forces their will upon others unless the situation was extreme enough to warrent it, and those seemed awfully far and few between, given the perspective their lifespans have granted them. Obviously the Simbul, and probably Khelben to a large extent, is probably a very glaring exception to that, but she tends to be the exception in most respects. The lesson most of them seem to have learned is that if they don't let the new generations take care of things themselves, they're going to end up relying on them to save the day and never learn how to do that themselves, and that's just not acceptable to them. On the novel point... I'd almost unreservedly agree with you on. I don't really care for making novels automatic canon, and would really prefer that they weren't, given the treatment the actual rules and the setting in general can get in the name of artistic license.
BrennonGoldeye 02-28-07, 09:06 AM	Basically, after roughly level eight the D&D system becomes broken. Once you get past level 12 you're already more powerful than perhaps more than 60% of the world. There is a huge power gap. The Chosen are obviously on the high end of the power scale for obvious reasons. To say that an 12th level character is above 60% of the world is an understatement. I would say more like 90%. As it should be. If you think the Chosen are bad, just imagine a world where 40% of folk are above 12th level. Now, with all those good guy Chosen they need to have equally (or near equally) powerful enemies. Thus, equally powerful villains are created. Those villains have minions, the Chosen have allies, these vary according to individual but many of them fall along the upper end of the power scale - close to or in Epic Levels. So what's the problem. Remove the Chosen and the same thing will happen anyway. It's called living. It's called want. It's called power. In D&D someone of this amount of power can lay waste to an entire city. They can more or less effectively conquer an entire nation without too much trouble. They can bring down entire armies with a few waves of their hand. The power they wield, while not being gods, certainly puts them in the same league. Um, no. Just plain no. If this is the way it would go in your group I would advise a new DM. Or at least a course on Mid to High-level gaming. ;) Just as I wouldn't want a deity walking around the world on a regular basis doing whatever the hell he/she/it wanted, I don't want quasi-deities (because that's what these folks are) wandering around doing the same. It unbalances the world and it breaks immersion. A quasi deity would be Tchazzar. Divine rank 0 and all. None of the Chosen are near this power level. Now 6 of them coming down on Tchazzar would be a good fight. It's nice to have friends and family.:) Certainly, -I- and those who agree with me can simply choose to ignore them. This is fine, most of us do. The problem comes when they are making changes to the setting. Take a look around, there is a Realms Shaking Event every other month practically. It's what sells books. Its how they make their money, but for me it kills the setting and breaks my immersion into it. Ignoring things is good if it helps make things fun for all involved. Just know that it is soooo easy to keep it all in story and still play a bunch of 2nd level characters who enjoy themselves. Sure, I'm fine with one or two of these people existing. I'm fine with more if they're spread out across the world. It's when you look at them, collectively, that it becomes a problem. Mystra is the most glaring example because she has so damn many. Its like having a player who is constantly looking for the best loot, willing to do anything to win, no matter how out of character it is, who has -8 INT and CHA but doesn't play his character like that... that is what it feels like to me. And just as I would kick that player out of my group, I feel the same about Mystra. It seems like with all her Chosen she is trying to effectively break the balance of the game so that she can be "the best". Meldread, Mystra isn't playing the game. She is part of it. All God's, by definition, believe themselves to be "the best". Do you really want God's who don't think that? I look to WotC to provide me a setting in which to play. I'm not interested in their meta plots or characters. Some people enjoy them, some people don't, I'm someone who doesn't. I just don't see why things from novels have to be canonized into the setting. I would rather leave such decisions up to the DM's. Reply With Quote This one stumps me. So you want a map, but no people. What good does the setting do you without the folk who lived, live, and will live in it?
ShadezofDis 02-28-07, 11:37 AM	To say that an 12th level character is above 60% of the world is an understatement. I would say more like 90%. As it should be. If you think the Chosen are bad, just imagine a world where 40% of folk are above 12th level. He (she) is probably including; Dragons, beholders, mind flayers, etc Of course I still don't think it'd be 60% but I don't think he (she) was going for accuracy :) So what's the problem. Remove the Chosen and the same thing will happen anyway. It's called living. It's called want. It's called power. However they already have power, too much power IMO. I just don't know how to incorperate economics (ie. the driving force of civilization) in a high magic world (though I did read some good ideas when I made a thread about it). Further, it's a sort of "monkey see monkey do" thing. If players (generality, may not be accurate in specific circumstances) see that El is uber powerful then they won't feel powerful until they are around that level. It's like a leveling arms race and I think the setting suffers due to this. Um, no. Just plain no. If this is the way it would go in your group I would advise a new DM. Or at least a course on Mid to High-level gaming. ;) A well executed attack from a party of 12th level adventurers could wipe out some pretty significant settlements (dunno if it'd get up to city level but it'd be bad) Ignoring things is good if it helps make things fun for all involved. Just know that it is soooo easy to keep it all in story and still play a bunch of 2nd level characters who enjoy themselves. Eh. . . I'm not so sure I agree, but then again I want a fully functioning world and I want to understand HOW it functions. Yes, this does make me retentive :) This one stumps me. So you want a map, but no people. What good does the setting do you without the folk who lived, live, and will live in it? I think you're taking it a bit to far Bren, I think Mel wants the entirety of the setting, just doesn't want hundreds of 20+ level magic users running around :)
GothicDan 02-28-07, 01:48 PM	Further, it's a sort of "monkey see monkey do" thing. If players (generality, may not be accurate in specific circumstances) see that El is uber powerful then they won't feel powerful until they are around that level. It's like a leveling arms race and I think the setting suffers due to this. So you want to unrealistically gimp the setting because a bunch of idiotic players don't know how to roleplay?
ShadezofDis 02-28-07, 02:02 PM	So you want to unrealistically gimp the setting because a bunch of idiotic players don't know how to roleplay? Hmm. . . I don't know how unrealistic it would be to gimp FR some. Personally I'm sick of seeing uber characters everywhere. In fact, I prefer to see my uber characters around 15th or so, making 8th-9th level magic FAR rarer, dropping the "OMG it's gonna destroy the wooooorrrrrrlllllllddddd" feel FR has been beaten with, etc. Actually. . . I don't really see the realms, as is, being all that realistic. It could just be that I haven't "figured it out" but I just can't see how economics in FR would really work. Especially with the new Red Wizard enclaves (I've always had a problem with magic items for sale though) in addition to the mages who're just making magic items for themselves or as research or whatever. Could just be that I like a different style than most though :) Regardless of all that I still love the Realms, I just don't see how it can actually work when I sit down and try to figure out the flow of goods, the flow of money and the flow of power.
GothicDan 02-28-07, 02:07 PM	The flow of goods and the like is utterly neglibile to high-level individuals; so I wouldn't worry about that. Stick to lower-level concerns for your typical commoner and the like. And it would be unrealistic due to the fact that, after hitting a certain high level, Wizards simply have very little to fear other than gods, archfiends, and other archmages... And the majority of archmages are too smart to tangle with archfiends, and love their own existences more than anything else, so very rarely risk direct conflict with rivals that could possibly defeat them. Or, if they do, they have layers of contingencies and plans to escape/resurrect/etc. Hence, why there are so many archmages, at least. I'm thinking of it from a realistic view probability and science wise.
Meldread 02-28-07, 02:12 PM	For me the Chosen are "real" people in my setting. They are just like all other mortals. They get up every morning, they have agendas, they have goals, they have hopes and aspirations... the difference is that they have an inordinate amount of power to accomplish what they want. I agree with Brennon level 12 is more accurately more powerful than 90% of the people in the setting. As a result the higher level you become the more of a threat you become to the setting. To believe that past level 20 that you don't have the ability to more or less crush most armies, if not single handedly, than with a few of your other similar high level friends, then... well... I don't know what to tell you. Suffice it to say, a non-Chosen character in one of the recent novels had the ability to pull one of Selune's Tear's from space to block out the sun, and then it came hurtling down toward Faerun. Elminster could certainly pull something along those lines off, if not a Tear then something of similar epic proportions if he put his mind to it. I am also well aware that a Quasi-Deity is someone with a Divine Rank of Zero. However, do you think it makes much difference to someone in the setting who is level 5? What about someone who is level 10? If you earn the scorn of either, you're dead either way. To someone like that, it doesn't matter if you're being smote by Elminster or Mystra herself, in either case you're still going to get smote and there isn't a hellva lot you can do about it. If you're running games that are mostly hack 'n slash where the main goal is to level up and gain "phat loot" then well... nothing I've spoke of in this thread has any effect on you what-so-ever. If, however you're like me - you're trying to breathe life into an imaginary world and create a collective story, it becomes a problem. Just because your players are on one side of the world does not mean time stops on the other side. Things still happen. You might be in Amn but might hear about rumors of certain things going on in Thay. They might not be entirely true, as rumors from that far away are unreliable, but they might hold a grain of truth somewhere in them. You effectively have to keep track of all these uber powerful individuals. Because as Stigger said they are like celebrities in the Realm's. The paparazzi are everywhere and people want to know what Elminster is doing, they are interested in these powerful individuals precisely because they are powerful. They are like walking nuclear weapons. In most places in the Realm's there isn't going to be much that can stand up to them, and if you want to create someone or something that can that is something else you have to worry about further down the road. Another uber character that you are forced to keep track of, another insanely powerful magic weapon to defeat the aforementioned uber character. In effect, it unbalances the entire world. For every powerful character there must be something or someone keeping them in check preventing them from running rampant. If they were powerful, but not epically powerful it would not be as big of a problem. If Elminster was just a level 16 or 18 Archwizard, that would be more than enough to deal with almost any foe that decided to waltz his way, and still leave a reasonable amount of hope that he could be defeated. After all, there are more things to a characters power than levels. Yet, that seems to be the focus of the entire game. "I want character X to be powerful. Hm. Okay I'm going to make him level 30!" What about a low level character with high charisma and a large circle of influence? What ever happened to those types of characters? Maybe I am just too hardcore for some people, but I believe that - unless you are planning an epic level game - that character's should remain under or around level 10, because after that they pose too high of a balancing risk for the setting.
Alediran 02-28-07, 02:27 PM	Maybe I am just too hardcore for some people, but I believe that - unless you are planning an epic level game - that character's should remain under or around level 10, because after that they pose too high of a balancing risk for the setting. That is the difference of the Realms, they have challenges to every kind of level, do you think 10th lvl characters are powerfull? Make them try to survive City of the Spider Queen, is a module designed for 10th to 18th lvl characters. Do you have high non-epic/low epic characters? Send them to Myth Drannor or Undermountain. They are at pair with Elminster and other powerful npcs? They can planewalk or try to build a city in some part of Faerûn, or start their own semi-secret organization. There is no barrier to character level in the realms, and if you can't imagine a game past lvl 10th in the realms, then you don't know the setting as you should.
ShadezofDis 02-28-07, 02:35 PM	The flow of goods and the like is utterly neglibile to high-level individuals; so I wouldn't worry about that. Stick to lower-level concerns for your typical commoner and the like. I wouldn't go so far as to say utterly neglible, if they desire to involve themselves in the society then there's a chance (depending upon character) that they would involve themselves in the flow of goods (or the ripples of their actions would effect that). Anyhow, even lower level characters can change the dynamics of a merchant company. A 10th level wizard would be able to facilitate the movement of goods an incredible amout and while a 10th level wizard is certainly powerful I don't think it's much of a stretch to say one might get interested in trade, especially with the rewards vs risk when compaired to adventuring. And it would be unrealistic due to the fact that, after hitting a certain high level, Wizards simply have very little to fear other than gods, archfiends, and other archmages... And the majority of archmages are too smart to tangle with archfiends, and love their own existences more than anything else, so very rarely risk direct conflict with rivals that could possibly defeat them. Or, if they do, they have layers of contingencies and plans to escape/resurrect/etc.[/quest] I do agree with that, though I'd have to say that once they start "secluding themselves", so to speak, they'd only be gaining levels (which isn't to say they aren't gaining/creating new spells) at a crawl. [QUOTE=GothicDan;11619329]Hence, why there are so many archmages, at least. I'm thinking of it from a realistic view probability and science wise. Indeed, though I still feel they unbalance the world at their current power level. :)
GothicDan 02-28-07, 03:10 PM	I do agree with that, though I'd have to say that once they start "secluding themselves", so to speak, they'd only be gaining levels (which isn't to say they aren't gaining/creating new spells) at a crawl. By 3E RAW, yes. In 2E, Wizards GAINED XP by researching, and it's the same in Ed's Realms, too. And that's the way I play it. :)
BrennonGoldeye 02-28-07, 03:22 PM	I agree with Brennon level 12 is more accurately more powerful than 90% of the people in the setting. As a result the higher level you become the more of a threat you become to the setting. I am starting to see why we disagree. I expect all of my PC's to be a threat to the setting. That's the point. They want the ability to change the world. To believe that past level 20 that you don't have the ability to more or less crush most armies, if not single handedly, than with a few of your other similar high level friends, then... well... I don't know what to tell you. I agree that beings above 20th can be quite a group of shakers and movers. That's why they worked so hard, and soooooo long, to be where they are. That is the goal. Unless my groups go out of their way to pick a fight with one, they won't encounter a direct representative of any Deity until the time is right. If you're running games that are mostly hack 'n slash where the main goal is to level up and gain "phat loot" then well... nothing I've spoke of in this thread has any effect on you what-so-ever. If, however you're like me - you're trying to breathe life into an imaginary world and create a collective story, it becomes a problem. Just because your players are on one side of the world does not mean time stops on the other side. Things still happen. You might be in Amn but might hear about rumors of certain things going on in Thay. They might not be entirely true, as rumors from that far away are unreliable, but they might hold a grain of truth somewhere in them. You effectively have to keep track of all these uber powerful individuals. Because as Stigger said they are like celebrities in the Realm's. The paparazzi are everywhere and people want to know what Elminster is doing, they are interested in these powerful individuals precisely because they are powerful. They are like walking nuclear weapons. In most places in the Realm's there isn't going to be much that can stand up to them, and if you want to create someone or something that can that is something else you have to worry about further down the road. Another uber character that you are forced to keep track of, another insanely powerful magic weapon to defeat the aforementioned uber character. In effect, it unbalances the entire world. For every powerful character there must be something or someone keeping them in check preventing them from running rampant. If they were powerful, but not epically powerful it would not be as big of a problem. If Elminster was just a level 16 or 18 Archwizard, that would be more than enough to deal with almost any foe that decided to waltz his way, and still leave a reasonable amount of hope that he could be defeated. After all, there are more things to a characters power than levels. Yet, that seems to be the focus of the entire game. "I want character X to be powerful. Hm. Okay I'm going to make him level 30!" What about a low level character with high charisma and a large circle of influence? What ever happened to those types of characters? Maybe I am just too hardcore for some people, but I believe that - unless you are planning an epic level game - that character's should remain under or around level 10, because after that they pose too high of a balancing risk for the setting. I think this cements the disagreement. I'm still strangely tempted to wanna roll up a character. How are Thursday nights for you?
ShadezofDis 02-28-07, 03:45 PM	By 3E RAW, yes. In 2E, Wizards GAINED XP by researching, and it's the same in Ed's Realms, too. And that's the way I play it. :) Oh, I play by those rules as well, it's just a crawl compaired to actively adventuring. :) The main payoffs (in my world) for research are; More new spells or interesting twists on them It's a lot safer (though not totally *g*) Sleeping in your own damned bed! But the "researching" archwizard isn't the one that creates the problems for me, they're basically self sufficient and occupied. It's the "active" archwizards who end up giving me headaches. As an example, I can't think of a lot of problems that Silvermoon would face that Alustriel can't handle (outside your odd massive orc invasion, etc). Famine, plague and a host of other problems could, in most cases, be handled by her and if not by her directly by one (or 15) of her contacts. Anyhow, sorry to keep beating this poor horse but this is really the only aspect of the Realms that has me stumped and I'm annoyed by that. ;D
BrennonGoldeye 02-28-07, 04:06 PM	By 3E RAW, yes. In 2E, Wizards GAINED XP by researching, and it's the same in Ed's Realms, too. And that's the way I play it. :) Me too!:)
Stigger 02-28-07, 04:40 PM	Keep in mind that the Chosen do occassionally spend time crafting scrolls, tomes, and magical items and seeding them in deep, dark dungeons to indirectly spread 'found' magic... I'd imagine its how they spend much of their time really. Don't recall which of the Elminster series shows us El doing that, Temptation or In Hell I think it was. As to the whole scornful smoting thing... you've really, really gotta push them hard to get them to do much more beyond annoying them. They're not exactly the most easily riled people if you read Greenwood's writing on them... often being the advocates of stepping back and thinking about matters before hasty action. And yeah, I completely agree that wizards should gain xp by research... more than they would adventuring really IMNSHO, since they're directly learning about magic without the physical distraction of adventuring.
Meldread 02-28-07, 05:34 PM	Brennon- I want my PC's to be the shakers and movers in my world too. I just don't want them to be able to act alone. Just like in the real world, you cannot achieve a station of massive power without working with others. You need allies, friends and associates. In game terms, this is what ties the player characters to the game world. Effectively, in D&D you reach a point where a group of players need to rely less on others and can do more for themselves. A single level can make a huge difference in the amount of power a person can wield, and after about level 10 you begin to cross that threshold. I would prefer my players to be worried about that goblin army rather than laughing at how pathetically they can slaughter them. And it would feel like complete cheese on my part if my players were at a point of power (such as that of the Chosen) where the Goblin Army DID pose a threat. "Oh, you see... uhh... these aren't your NORMAL Goblins. These are... uhh... ELITE Goblins, yeah. That's why they're mostly level 15 and all their wizards know epic level magic!" And, of course, realistically, I can't throw a Dragon at them all the time. Basically I view the world like this: Faerun is for characters who are below level 15. After level 15, it's time to hit the planes. You've reached a point where you can adventure beyond the normal world. Beyond 20th level is for powerful Demon Princes, Arch-Devils, and Godlike beings. Finding a level 20 in Faerun is extremely rare, and you should be able to count the number of individuals over level 20 on both hands. By the time you reach level 20 and beyond there is not going to be all that much standing in your way. If you're evil and you want to conquer a kingdom? It is fully within your power. However, I think this comment sums up our differences: That's why they worked so hard, and soooooo long, to be where they are. That is the goal. That is -not- the goal that I want people to have. I want people to enjoy themselves and be immersed in the world that is created. I want them to play characters that interact with the world in a believable and realistic manner. I want them to have fun by being a part of a story that is bigger than themselves - because the world itself is so big that a single individual or a small group of them cannot possibly hope to control it all. That is fundamentally my problem with the Chosen and these uber characters. They are a very, very small percentage of the world and yet all of the power is becoming locked up into their hands. They are gaining TOO MUCH influence, TOO MUCH prominence and becoming TOO prevalent. We are rapidly reaching a point where the focus is on extremely powerful individuals within the world - and predominately, it is because of the novels. Just as some books cannot be easily translated into movies, some books should not and cannot be easily translated into D&D.
Stigger 02-28-07, 05:59 PM	We have very different playing styles I think Meldread... after 15 is when the politics starts kicking in for me, and sword-swinging and spell-hurling just won't accomplish as much as a word in an ear. It's when the real fun of the intrigue and influence starts kicking in... the challenges get less obvious and the stakes much higher.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 02-28-07, 06:09 PM	Kinda getting back on subject. What does everyone think of Mystra catering to the good and neutral spell caster and Shar catering to the evil spell casters? I mean that kind seems to be the way the writers are headed. I know the Shadow Weave isn’t inherently evil, but it states in the law that its secrets twist the mind and such. I ask because I know this two weaves thing has been bugging people for years now.
Stigger 02-28-07, 06:16 PM	I'd like to see the Shadow Weave exorcised from Faerun with a massive retcon myself... but barring that, I'd settle for Shar losing control of the shadow weave to Mystra who'd evolve more back to the LN days after seizing it.
Lord Karsus 02-28-07, 06:29 PM	I'd like to see the Shadow Weave exorcised from Faerun with a massive retcon myself... but barring that, I'd settle for Shar losing control of the shadow weave to Mystra who'd evolve more back to the LN days after seizing it. -Maybe the Sundering of the Weave is actually about the Shadow Weave going away!? Hey, we can hope, right? :(
Stigger 02-28-07, 06:31 PM	We certainly can... and we can at least treat it that way in the home campaigns. Nothing says we have to use canon at home afterall.
Meldread 02-28-07, 08:45 PM	Heh, it's actually somewhat the opposite for me, Stigger. Politics and intrigue take place first, then once you've amassed the power – that is when the butt kicking really begins. I've never really understood the opposite point of view that when you've worked so hard to obtain so much power, that somehow like magic you suddenly decide to settle down. In the real world (to draw a comparison) it is the opposite. People work to amass a great amount of power and then unleash it or threaten to unleash it on their enemies. However, if I'm running a game in which players are going to be doing major butt kicking I'm definitely aiming for higher levels and am likely taking them off of Toril (even if they begin there). They might have a base of operations somewhere in Faerun, and most of their "power" might be focused there - but the butt kicking happens elsewhere. If I want a game of political intrigue, or a game where war is at the backdrop it is always below or around level 10. I suppose my biggest fear is that FR will eventually turn into a place like Union. (The Epic Level City, where you have level 15 Commoners, level 20 Shopkeepers, and Guards that fart lightning bolts.) It just seems like every time I turn around there is yet another epic character added into cannon, yet another Chosen of some other deity, and we've been told that Mystra likely has EVEN MORE Chosen that we just don't know about yet. More or less, I think this is going to end up driving me away from the setting. I know if I find another setting that I like, that has the same amount of detail as the Realm's I'm switching with little to no remorse.
BrennonGoldeye 02-28-07, 08:46 PM	Now I really wanna roll up a PC. Been a long time since I worried about things non-FR. Well met. Thursday still good?
Meldread 02-28-07, 09:29 PM	Tell you what, Brennon find me a setting that's non-FR that has as much detail as FR that I might like to play in, and I'll not only DM a game for you on Thursdays I'll do it with a non-D&D System. (I've actually looked at other systems and like some of them... been itching to give them a try. I won't mention them on the forums because I don't think WotC would like me very much after that. :P) Better yet - if you can draw a nice map I'll create the setting myself. That's always been my biggest barrier to designing my own world. A map is worth a million words... I don't think people really understand how a good map is important to a setting. Ensuring that your rivers don't flow up mountains, and that Hollowdale and Sleepingvale are really on opposite sides of the Great Forest is always a good thing. But, ahh... I've gone far off topic.
BrennonGoldeye 02-28-07, 09:37 PM	But it was a good tangent. I think I have just the setting in mind....
Stigger 02-28-07, 11:52 PM	Don't think I made myself clear there actually... you battle and fight, claw and scratch your way to power by around 10th-12th level, the whole while doing your best to stay on top of the many intrigues and politics with which you're becoming embroiled on your rise to power. After about 13th you start to get a substantial level of power yourself, to really make a name for yourself... the big fish in the small pond. After about 15th is when you finally get big enough for the fish in the larger pond you just found yourself in to start noticing you... and that's the point for me that the fun really begins. The fights come less frequently, matter more, and become a whole lot harder when they do happen, with realms laying in the balance... but before then it's all pretty local stuff, nothing that really matters in the grand scheme of things. Losing a fight before didn't really matter that much so long as you survived... your patron just gave you or someone else another shot at it and didn't worry too much. Now all of a sudden you are that patron and you're gambling your power and prestige with every single fight you engage in... see where I'm going with that?
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-01-07, 12:43 AM	We certainly can... and we can at least treat it that way in the home campaigns. Nothing says we have to use canon at home afterall. As much as I would like to see the Shadow Weave go away I doubt that’s the direction they are headed. So baring its destruction maybe they can explain it better so it makes more sense. Like has it always been there? Was it there at the fall? Has Shar always had lordship over it? ETC
Meldread 03-01-07, 01:56 AM	Yes, I see where you are going with that Stigger. The difference lays in the fact that you don't have to be level 15+ in order for that to be possible. By the time you've reached level eight you've already surpassed the level of the majority of people on and around Faerun. You're in the "Upper Tier" as it were. The reason you -need- to be level fifteen (or rather, feel the need) is because of the amount of power you personally wield. By the time you reach level 15 the focus becomes much smaller, so much more relies on you - as you say. That is because you wield so much personal power. However, in the real world that is not how it works. Your power comes not from you personally, but from those around you. There are people who hold you up. You have supporters, allies and friends. In D&D once you reach a certain amount of power you don't need them anymore. They are useful to have, yes, but you don't -need- them. By this time you've become so remotely removed from the common person that, while you are not technically a deity, you might as well be in their eyes. As a Wizard you may have the ability to stop time itself. You may have the ability to enslave people's minds, steal their memories, make them puppets. You could grant the dead unlife. You have reached a point in power so extreme, so great that it boggles the mind of the Average Joe. When you walk down the street of a city, people will know your name; they will know your face. They will fear you, be in awe of you, hell some of them might even worship you and think of you as a god made flesh. This is the scope of the power you wield. By this point you have done so many miraculous deeds, fell so many miraculous foes that it is difficult to comprehend your true power. Kings, Nobles and Priests fear you as a potential threat to their power, even as they bend over backward to ensure that they can please you. After all, they don't want to end up as one of your Thralls - that's what they heard, after all - that you enthrall your enemies. Gods! The common folk even say you have pet dragons! Oh, of course everyone is talking about you - who isn't? You're famous. Everyone knows who -you- are. Every action you perform is magnified one hundred times. You may have only slew one giant that was giving some merchant trouble, but by the time word reaches the village, you single handedly took out an entire army of giants. No! No! You killed the Giant Army, then cut off the Giant King's head! Some, jealous of your power, will spread rumors that you secretly paid the Giant Army to attack just so you could be the hero. This is the problem that you face once you reach that level of power. It is so beyond the scope of what 99.9% of the people playing D&D (or any such game) have ever experienced, or will ever experience in their daily lives. The people who play D&D are Average Joes, not the Hollywood Elite or World Leaders, and they are some of the only people who can relate to this type of character. You can't realistically blend in with the population. You have powerful enemies which means you must be prepared for an attack by them at any time. Walking through the city in your obviously highly magical equipment puts a big sign on you. In all likelihood you are traveling in some type of illusionary disguise to avoid recognition or with an entourage that keeps the commoners at bay. You've become too important to be worried about their petty problems, your time has become too valuable to be wasted. You're character is not just a collection of numbers on a piece of paper. That is who -he- or -she- is... fundamentally. You aren't Salazar the Archmage who can cast Epic Spells. You're Salazar the Archmage who can stop time itself. You're Salazar the Archmage who can kill a man in a single word. You're Salazar the Archmage who has battled and bested Dragons and otherworldly creatures. You're Salazar the Archmage who can create magical holes that allow people to travel from one end of the world to the other - or to other worlds themselves! That is who Salazar the Archmage is, and those are just the true things he has done - not the things people THINK he has done. Certainly many DM's will gloss over this and allow the player to wander the city as if he were still an Average Joe. But he isn't really. Not anymore. He was an Average Joe, once upon a time, but that was a long time ago. The power he personally wields, and the burdens he carries are too great and too far beyond anything a commoner could ever hope to understand. You are forced to become isolated and remote because every time you enter the city you have either to travel in disguise or draw a huge crowd. Bringing attention to yourself like that is dangerous. You have many powerful foes. If you care, then you worry about how you could endanger the lives of others. If you don't, you worry about the distraction they cause to you and the danger that they unknowingly place you. You can barely remember what it is like to struggle for coin. You're wealthy beyond your wildest dreams now, and if by some cruel twist of fate you need coin, you'll just sell one of those magical trinkets you have that are gathering dust. Hell, you were thinking about giving it away - it's taking up space. This may be great for some people, but it quickly gets boring - the inability and the isolationism involved - the discovery that power did not grant the freedom that you had hoped... in fact you are less free now than you ever were. You would have had more freedom farming fields. You may even long for those days to return, even as you know that they never will. If I were the DM I would emphasize all of that and more. Every action you take will have far reaching effects in ways that, at the time, were difficult to predict. Wasting your time on one thing will often lead to horrible consequences for another. You would be shown the suffering of the world, suffering that you would have the power to prevent - but lack the time to do it. If you stop to help a poor mother find her lost child, many more lives will be lost as your evil nemesis continues his villainy. You would have to learn that sometimes a few must be sacrificed for the greater good. Many people would not like that. Yet, this is not the reality that their characters would face. It is not the world in which those characters would live, and if I am the DM it is my responsibility to create that world. To create the reality in which the characters live. If I fail at that then the characters themselves suffer, they are robbed of the burden of achievement. The burdens of power. They would be robbed of the things that made them truly great. This is why I prefer characters that are more grounded in the world in which we can relate as average people. They may have power, yes - but it won't span nations. It may be isolated in a single kingdom or city, but it is power just the same. They won't be able to stop time, but they still have extraordinary abilities that put them apart from the common man. They would still be able to walk around a town or village, and while many will know their name, they will not be accosted with huge crowds of people. They may stir up local gossip, but over all it is business as usual. They may have enemies, but their enemies are not so powerful that they can bring death on a massive scale that we, in the real world, can only achieve through our most powerful and deadly weapons. It has been, in my experience, much easier for people to play characters that they can more easily relate to rather than characters that are so inordinately different from themselves. Certainly, some people can pull it off superbly, but a lot of people cannot.
Stigger 03-01-07, 07:29 AM	All good points... not ones I've ever run across, but I could see where it would be a serious problem for some. It's funny really, thinking on it, that almost all of the people I've played with over the last 15-16 years hate the low levels as kinda mundane and pedestrian, and can hardly wait for level 10+ so the 'real fun' can begin. Different strokes and all I guess. :)
Lord Karsus 03-01-07, 09:23 AM	Like has it always been there? -It has (more or less). Was it there at the fall? -It was. Has Shar always had lordship over it? ETC -She has (that we know of).
Soltares 03-01-07, 01:55 PM	It's funny really, thinking on it, that almost all of the people I've played with over the last 15-16 years hate the low levels as kinda mundane and pedestrian, and can hardly wait for level 10+ so the 'real fun' can begin. Different strokes and all I guess. Definitely so. Our games fall apart around 8th level. I think the highest we've ever gotten was 12th. (Although we have played higher level character, for the Bloodstone Wars arc, for instance, but we made them at that level.)
Alediran 03-01-07, 02:11 PM	@Meldread, that could be the case in Greyhawk, where there weren't so many powerfull figures, but in Forgotten Realms, lvl 15 is still "A bit more than Average Joe", if I began to enlist all characters who are more than lvl 15 in the realms I could fill a couple pages of this thread. As I told you before, if you think that 15th lvl is the level where you should stop playing, then I recomend you to play CotSQ, it takes the characters from 10th lvl to 18th and it's a struggle from begining to end if you aren't carefull and prepared. After that you are still an unknown person in the Realms, except maybe just for those who live in Battledale (wich is almost nothing), from there there are still thousands upon thousands of things to do.
Meldread 03-01-07, 08:07 PM	Alediran- I'm not saying that you run out of things to do, or that you should stop playing a character after a certain level. I'm not saying that at all. I'm saying that, from a realistic stand point, by the time you reach that point you've obtained so much power and wealth that it is nearly impossible for you to ever integrate yourself back into society. The wealth and power that you hold, as an individual - not including your alliances and friends - is so immense that it is difficult for the Average Joe to comprehend. Now, I realize that a lot of people don't strive for realism in their games. They play differently than I do, but I view what I do as creating a collaborative story. The DM is the Narrator who describes and dictates what happens in the world, and the players are the primary characters in the story. In order for the players to properly act the role of their characters they have to, on some level, understand how their characters think, feel and react to the world around them. As a DM you have to be able to think of how the world would view the characters. In the D&D System by the time you become level 15 you're basically playing a game of super heroes that find themselves in a fantasy setting. In order for the players to truly relate to their characters, their powers and abilities have to be downplayed - the very things that make them extraordinary and apart from the Average Joe. If you put the focus on those things, as it should be realistically, it becomes a whole different ball game. Ask yourself, what effect would seeing a Mind Flayer or a Beholder have on someone's mind? What would happen to them if they could feel the Mind Flayer reading their thoughts, their deepest secrets... how would they feel if they had similar abilities? Look at the real world. Look at people who go off to war and think about how it changes them. To see death up close. To deal death. To take lives. As an adventurer this is your profession. You deal death, you take life. It may be of a goblin or an orc, or a more powerful creature such as a dragon, but it is a sentient being all the same. How does your character deal with that? How would your character feel to know that, after killing a small group of goblins in the forest, who were hunting wild game, that they inadvertently took the lives of creatures that had children, that depended on them? Would the Paladin feel obligated to make some type of restitution for his actions? Would the party view them as potential threats in the future and slaughter them, like they did their father? For a more humorous way of thinking about this, and a satirical look of how things typically are in a lot of role-playing games, I will point you to a comic strip. The comic strip is about a MMORPG, but they are indirectly based off D&D and CRPGs, so there is plenty of carry over. The back story is that of a newbie, named Ohforf has gone out with a friend to kill rats (a typical low level NPC) for a quest and to gain levels. After he kills the rat and cuts off its tail, he learns that you can loot them - and to his amazement the rat has a wallet. (After all, they need some place to hide all their loot.) This strip details what happens as he discovers the contents of the wallet. (http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip025.html) This strip details what happens after. (http://www.thenoobcomic.com/daily/strip026.html) This is, in my opinion, the way D&D and such games derived from it typically work and shows their obvious flaw when it comes to the way I enjoy to play.
Stigger 03-01-07, 08:11 PM	Heh, I generally play these games to escape reality, not emulate it. But if that's the way you play, more power to you. :)
bloodtalon 03-02-07, 10:11 AM	1. Free Mystra. Let the character grow and expand on her own, and allow her to act within the confines of her alignment. 2. Shift Mystra to Neutral. I believe this is the road she is currently on, which I think is rather boring. 3. Kill or change Mystra, dividing up the magic portfolio and doing something with the Weave to keep it out of the hands of a single deity. Of those three things, I most prefer #1 and least prefer #2.[/QUOTE] for me i did the third one in my game Mystra in her inexperince as a goddess tried to fix all the wild and dead magic areas and ended up cutting the realms off from the weave and did not know how to reconnect it. the ensuring chaos Ao stepped in and reestablished the link to the weave made it more powerfull (can not be tampered with by no one) and made it that no god or goddess can have thier magic removed, unless all the god and goddess of magic (think i put it at 6 or 7 of them) all agreed with no one saying no.
Alediran 03-02-07, 10:16 AM	for me i did the third one in my game Mystra in her inexperince as a goddess tried to fix all the wild and dead magic areas and ended up cutting the realms off from the weave and did not know how to reconnect it. the ensuring chaos Ao stepped in and reestablished the link to the weave made it more powerfull (can not be tampered with by no one) and made it that no god or goddess can have thier magic removed, unless all the god and goddess of magic (think i put it at 6 or 7 of them) all agreed with no one saying no. Not my intention to bash you, but that is impossible, the second Mystra has all the knowledge of the first Mystra and even a great portion of her personality. She could never fail in her task as guardian of the weave.
bloodtalon 03-02-07, 10:43 AM	i also did that because a few of characters were becomeign too powerful with magic items and needed a quick way to get rid of magic and to stir up the whole world. with the promblems that happen from it;; it opened up tons of new adventures.
Stigger 03-02-07, 10:45 AM	Impossible by canon perhaps, but DM's fiat pretty much trumps canon every time.
Alediran 03-02-07, 10:47 AM	i also did that because a few of characters were becomeign too powerful with magic items and needed a quick way to get rid of magic and to stir up the whole world. with the promblems that happen from it;; it opened up tons of new adventures. Then you up the challenge (and give magic items to the other players), not destroy a godess just because you didn't want to prepare more difficult encounters. Count this as a mild bashing. Queen - Another one bites the dust.
Meldread 03-02-07, 11:10 AM	...that is impossible, the second Mystra has all the knowledge of the first Mystra and even a great portion of her personality. She could never fail in her task as guardian of the weave. Nothing is impossible. Mystra - regardless what version - has always occasionally made some really stupid eye rolling mistakes. I could imagine lots of scenarios in which something like this could happen - an example of one could be if Mystra attempted to gain control of the Shadow Weave. Something goes wrong, boom she accidentally breaks the Weave in the process. There is also the possibility of external forces doing something to really screw up the Weave. I always encourage people to deviate from cannon. No one should feel obligated to play within Wizard of the Coast's Vision of the Realms (tm). If someone wants to go off killing the gods, even deities that I like, then I say go right ahead - more power to them. As long as I'm not forced into playing that game I could careless, and if it makes them and their group happy - I'm happy for them. Hell, even Ed Greenwood isn't playing in the canonized version of the Realms as it currently is - I don't think he even recognizes the Time of Troubles. (I could be wrong, but I am 90% certain that he plays with his own rules in a world that makes him and his group happy.)
Alediran 03-02-07, 11:52 AM	Yes, changes are good, if they maintain logic with what you want to play, but random changes without consistency are what annoys me, because they are usually done without regard to what is written to the moment of introducing the changes. If you want to play in a FR without ToT, that's fine by me, as long as everything prior to the ToT is still taken into account, and the world doesn't suddenly becomes WoD in FR without a well thought and lore-consistent story (because it stinks as a childish "Mommy, Mystra left me without my magic, I hate her and I don't want her to play in my sandbox again", that's why most ideas for changes don't sit well around here.)
Meldread 03-02-07, 12:35 PM	Even if someone makes a change that doesn't make sense when it comes to consistency according to current cannon, it doesn't mean that they can't modify the setting in such a way that it makes sense. I could write the Weave out of the setting completely, fill in the holes that it leaves in the lore, and create a new system for magic on Toril. I would agree that simply cutting something out of the setting, and then not going back to make it make logical sense is poor design. After all, WotC has done their fair share of it and there is no reason a DM shouldn't be allowed to do the same.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-02-07, 08:00 PM	Hey Cyric is still Lord of the Dead and Mask is Mad in my Campaign. Mystra’s old boy friend is being flayed as we speak. Ah good times at the Bone Castle. Do what ever you want! Its your world the players are just living it it! However there are better ways of removing magic item from players hands then whacking the Goddess of Magic! A trip through one of Lorlocks portals will do in a pinch. Changing the mythology of your world to snag up magic items is ridiculous! IMO Why did you let them collect a bunch to begin with?
Alediran 03-02-07, 10:02 PM	Pfff, a simple Nishruu can take care of the magical item's problem.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-03-07, 03:05 AM	Pfff, a simple Nishruu can take care of the magical item's problem. Exactly! Even easier. Certainly better then killing the Goddess of magic to nullify magic items!
Karsus the Mad 03-03-07, 07:13 PM	You two just gave me a silly idea...a Toril sized anti-magic field...what's the radius of Toril? The Spellcraft DC of an epic spell to do that has made me curious....
Lord Karsus 03-03-07, 11:35 PM	You two just gave me a silly idea...a Toril sized anti-magic field...what's the radius of Toril? The Spellcraft DC of an epic spell to do that has made me curious.... -I don't know. Ask the creators of that dumb Dracorage Mythal...
XunValDorl of HouseKilsek 03-04-07, 12:35 AM	You know what would do the realms a bit of good. Drop the level of magic down to the same as Middle Earth.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-04-07, 03:59 AM	You know what would do the realms a bit of good. Drop the level of magic down to the same as Middle Earth. :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: :nonono: so silly.
Stigger 03-04-07, 10:17 AM	Or maybe a big moon sized asteroid hitting the sea of swords, making everything look like Athas... that could make it better too. Or any number of other improvements that could be made to make it more like somewhere else...
Wizard56 03-04-07, 10:32 AM	I didn't wade thru the entire discussion, but I failed to notice any mention of Azuht, the god of wizards. It seems to me that he has a fair amount of the magic portfolio at his disposal. He is the one who names and supervises the Magister. He also has the power to strip wizards of their ability. If I remember correctly, he also was the tutor to the current Mystra, along with Elminster.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-04-07, 02:16 PM	Azuth is just the Lord of Spells. Mystra is magic which includes everything Magic.
Alediran 03-04-07, 02:53 PM	You know what would do the realms a bit of good. Drop the level of magic down to the same as Middle Earth. There is no need for two dragonlances, yo try to make everything the same and that is an evil act.
Karsus the Mad 03-04-07, 04:38 PM	Azuth is just the Lord of Spells. Mystra is magic which includes everything Magic. Given that Spells is in her portfolio, I'd say she's the cake....it's more than what Azuth has...despite his title... Wait...haven't I said the same thing about Mystra? Her title doesn't mean her portfolio? Oh, yes I have!
Wizard56 03-04-07, 05:19 PM	I was under the impression that Azuth was the god of wizards rather than spells. In any case, he has more power than either Savras, who serves him, or Velsharoon. Since the Magister is his chosen, not Mystra's, he must have a fair amount of magic at his disposal.
Stigger 03-04-07, 05:26 PM	The Magister isn't his Chosen per se, he's simply the fellow that oversees her/him for Mystra. The Magister's powers flow from Mystra, not Azuth, at least last I checked.
Wizard56 03-04-07, 05:29 PM	As I recall, Azuth chooses the Magister. But I will track down the reference and check.
Wizard56 03-04-07, 05:38 PM	In "Secrets of the Magister" on page 7, it mentions that in case of untimely death or an unfair duel, Azuth chooses the next Magister. He is the one who makes the offers, whether he or Mystra chosses.
bloodtalon 03-04-07, 07:27 PM	Not my intention to bash you, but that is impossible, the second Mystra has all the knowledge of the first Mystra and even a great portion of her personality. She could never fail in her task as guardian of the weave. unless you think of her as a trill from star trek each new host has all the memories but still acts like a young adult and with that a mind set that nothing bad can happent o them of casue of them.
Stigger 03-04-07, 07:33 PM	That's kinda like confusing the messenger for the queen... it doesn't matter if he's doing the asking or even overseeing the office, it's Mystra empowering and authorizing the office to begin with. So, the Magister serves Mystra ultimately, even if Azuth is the one giving the direction and guidance.
Wizard56 03-04-07, 07:45 PM	Actually, it matters little who powers the Magister. The point is that Azuth has a considerable portion of Mystra's power. The original Mystra was not unwilling to share her power with others, as long as she does the choosing.
GothicDan 03-04-07, 09:42 PM	'Considerable'? No...
MaskedOne 03-04-07, 10:44 PM	Someone please, please tell me that I did not see a suggestion that Toril's magic level should be dropped down to that of Middle Earth. That had to be a halucination, right? No one present could be sadistic enough to strip a setting partially defined by high magic down to low magic world? Good heavens that thought could make me sick.
Lord Karsus 03-04-07, 11:21 PM	Someone please, please tell me that I did not see a suggestion that Toril's magic level should be dropped down to that of Middle Earth. That had to be a halucination, right? No one present could be sadistic enough to strip a setting partially defined by high magic down to low magic world? Good heavens that thought could make me sick. -Does that really surprise you, at this point? Just when you thought the boat couldn't sink any more, it settles deeper into the ocean mud...:rolleyes:
MaskedOne 03-04-07, 11:38 PM	It has been mostly a good day. I always expect silliness on FR boards. That was slightly more than expected. That and a peculiar bias of mine. Outside D20 Modern (and sometimes even there), I do not like low magic settings most of the time. The availability and versatility of magic is one of the key measures by which I judge a setting. Reduce FR's magic too much and I'll stop looking into new material on it with next to no hesitation.
Lord Karsus 03-04-07, 11:41 PM	It has been mostly a good day. I always expect silliness on FR boards. That was slightly more than expected. That and a peculiar bias of mine. Outside D20 Modern (and sometimes even there), I do not like low magic settings most of the time. The availability and versatility of magic is one of the key measures by which I judge a setting. Reduce FR's magic too much and I'll stop looking into new material on it with next to no hesitation. -Magic is one of the major factors that makes fantasy...fantasy. In Tolkien's Middle-Earth, it is just as common, but just a lot less subtle. But, without magic, fantasy just isn't fantasy. And, who'd want to play D&D without magic? That just turns it into medieval d20 Modern, with huge handicaps. Not fun. :nonono:
Alediran 03-05-07, 12:01 AM	LK, belive me, I know a lot of D&D players who wouldn't play with a spellcaster even if it costs their lives. Those same players are always looking for ways to make a D&D with the lowest possible quantity of magic. I played under one of those players (obviously they don't know too much about magic, or they wouldn't try to get rid of it), and with the most common spells I completely broke what he had planned, don't need to tell the things he made trying to kill my wizard (he didn't pull the god's finger crushing the character, he was too proud of killing characters within the rules), but in the end my character survived. End result, he never allowed me to play with him again.
Wizard56 03-05-07, 12:32 AM	If a game player doesn't like magic in the game, maybe they should restrict themselves to middle ages type games that don't use magic at all. I have one for the Fall of Constantinople that can use magic or not.
Alediran 03-05-07, 12:36 AM	People who wouldn't even bother learning about D&D magic aren't going to learn a whole new system to play without magic. Trust me, I've seen it happen quite often.
Wizard56 03-05-07, 12:41 AM	The systems I've seen don't play any different. Except for the wizards, most of the classes are the same. Just more hack-and-slash without the magic.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-05-07, 01:37 AM	I think D&D played as magic poor is about as low as anyone should go. Whats the point in playing if there isn’t a little magic to look forward to. Like LK said it would just be D20 medieval. Snore!
Stigger 03-05-07, 09:06 AM	Interestingly, I tend to think the official realms is a little low on my preferred magic settings...
Lord Karsus 03-05-07, 10:46 AM	Interestingly, I tend to think the official realms is a little low on my preferred magic settings... -You would've liked my hometown... :shifty: -I've got a Time Conduit in the back, and I'll let you utilize it for a few GP a month...
Stigger 03-05-07, 11:43 AM	Only lasts a year though... I prefer to use reality facet travel until I find one that suits me more. ;)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-05-07, 03:10 PM	Interestingly, I tend to think the official realms is a little low on my preferred magic settings... Low? I have always thought of the Realms as a high magic world. I mean they have magic shops for Gods sakes! Also we have SH*T load of epic NPCs!
Stigger 03-05-07, 03:19 PM	Low... I like a lot of magic running around the streets. Something you just don't see much of outside of a few select locations, and even then it's a bit too low for my liking. Sewers that dump their contents into the quasi/para-elemental plane of ooze (never remember which it is)... Magical streetlights that shut off during the day... Forges fed from a elemental fire conduit... Hot and cold running elemental water heated or chilled by micro-conduits to the appropriate elemental plane... Magical air conditioning running on the same basic principle as the water... just to name a few things I'd like to see in a setting... ;)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-05-07, 03:21 PM	Low... I like a lot of magic running around the streets. Something you just don't see much of outside of a few select locations, and even then it's a bit too low for my liking. Sewers that dump their contents into the quasi/para-elemental plane of ooze (never remember which it is)... Magical streetlights that shut off during the day... Forges fed from a elemental fire conduit... Hot and cold running elemental water heated or chilled by micro-conduits to the appropriate elemental plane... Magical air conditioning running on the same basic principle as the water... just to name a few things I'd like to see in a setting... ;) Sounds like Netheril at its height!
Stigger 03-05-07, 03:22 PM	Yeah, except the Netherese were crap... I can't like a culture that would enslave something as inoffensive as gnomes.
Lord Karsus 03-05-07, 03:28 PM	Yeah, except the Netherese were crap... I can't like a culture that would enslave something as inoffensive as gnomes. -Now, just hold on a second. Gnomes today are a lot different from Gnomes back then. Back then, they were a lot more...warlike. I was almost assassinated by a Gnome, I'll let you know. The little guy tried to take a bite out of my ankle. I fried him for that, but he sure had tenacity.
Stigger 03-05-07, 03:37 PM	Maybe if they hadn't been enslaved they would have had so much hostility... things tend to get worked up over things like that... :P
Lord Karsus 03-05-07, 03:53 PM	-Is it really my fault that Garl Glittergold created the ideal slave race?
Stigger 03-05-07, 03:59 PM	No, simply your fault that you perceive them as such, when he obviously had other intentions for them.
GothicDan 03-05-07, 04:00 PM	Or.. Did he?
Stigger 03-05-07, 04:01 PM	That whole Lawful and Good thing with him would indicate that he didn't intend for them to be enslaved...
GothicDan 03-05-07, 04:03 PM	The Paladins in Mulhorand have slaves. ;)
Stigger 03-05-07, 04:14 PM	Yeah, true, but I don't think I need to mention that I have difficulties with that particular tidbit of lore...
GothicDan 03-05-07, 04:18 PM	It makes sense given your outlooks on alignment. ;)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-05-07, 06:01 PM	Yeah, except the Netherese were crap... I can't like a culture that would enslave something as inoffensive as gnomes. Not offensive?!?!?! Have you seen what those little bastards wear? I mean those cloths are so bright they could blind you! Oh and they clutter up people’s yards. Their loud cloths are excuse enough for massive Gnome exterminations! As for the whole Slave thing. Mulhorand slaves have a better quality of life then most commoners elsewhere in the realms. Serf’s, Slaves what’s the difference! Lol Slavery still goes on in our world.
Wizard56 03-05-07, 07:10 PM	Hey, don't pick on gnomes! I could be a good gnome. I'm almost the same size and I already have the beard....
Karsus the Mad 03-05-07, 07:18 PM	Or.. Did he? and The Paladins in Mulhorand have slaves. GD stated my opinion before I was able to. Don't get all crappy because Netheril had slaves. They weren't the first, and they aren't the last. A paladin owns more slaves than the rest of the slaveowners in FR combined. It just happened that gnomes were easily enslaved. Once they earned their freedom, they got it:P
Stigger 03-05-07, 07:30 PM	You mean that freedom the elves of Cormanthyr managed to win for them by smuggling them out of the enclaves? As to gnomish fashion sensabilities... it's not their fault that you don't have the same tastes. Unless you're saying I'm allowed to maim, kill, and otherwise destroy the ugly and the stupid at will, in which case I can happily concede the point and say enslave away...
Karsus the Mad 03-05-07, 07:38 PM	You mean that freedom the elves of Cormanthyr managed to win for them by smuggling them out of the enclaves? The elves didn't do anything but provide an underground railroad. It was gnomes themselves that earned their freedom. They owe to noone, especially elves!:D I luv gnomes...so cuddly:P As to gnomish fashion sensabilities... it's not their fault that you don't have the same tastes. Unless you're saying I'm allowed to maim, kill, and otherwise destroy the ugly and the stupid at will, in which case I can happily concede the point and say enslave away... Hey, you're allowed to main, kill, and otherwise destroy the ugly and the stupid at will. If you have the power to do it, then I say you have the right to do it. I'm one of those mortals who truly believes that "might makes right".
BrennonGoldeye 03-05-07, 08:46 PM	GD stated my opinion before I was able to. Don't get all crappy because Netheril had slaves. They weren't the first, and they aren't the last. A paladin owns more slaves than the rest of the slaveowners in FR combined. It just happened that gnomes were easily enslaved. Once they earned their freedom, they got it:P I myself would much prefer a Paladin master to a Netherese one, just going on the odds. ;)
Lord Karsus 03-05-07, 09:10 PM	I myself would much prefer a Paladin master to a Netherese one, just going on the odds. ;) -There were plenty of nice Netherese. And, at the same time, there are plenty of scummy Paladins...
Stigger 03-06-07, 09:55 AM	Ugly and the stupid beware then... :evillaugh
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-06-07, 10:58 AM	I like Gnomes as well. They are tasty. Especially smoked gnomes! Yum! Hey it’s not cannibalism if you’re a different race then the food!:P
Lord Karsus 03-06-07, 05:22 PM	I like Gnomes as well. They are tasty. Especially smoked gnomes! Yum! Hey it’s not cannibalism if you’re a different race then the food!:P -As a general rule of thumb, civilized sentients don't eat the flesh of other sentients.
BrennonGoldeye 03-06-07, 05:25 PM	-As a general rule of thumb, civilized sentients don't eat the flesh of other sentients. Hey LLKN, your in luck. Dine away.:D
Karsus the Mad 03-06-07, 07:50 PM	-As a general rule of thumb, civilized sentients don't eat the flesh of other sentients. I suppose that rules out illithids as being civilized sentients?:P Then again, some eat snails.......and they're considered civilized....
BrennonGoldeye 03-06-07, 09:43 PM	I suppose that rules out illithids as being civilized sentients?:P Then again, some eat snails.......and they're considered civilized.... Squid and frogs eh? Just call me Cajun.:D
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-06-07, 11:28 PM	-As a general rule of thumb, civilized sentients don't eat the flesh of other sentients. Just call me the Hannibal lector of Netheril. One could never accuse Hannibal of being uncivilized despite his preference for human flesh! Bren go eat a frog!
BrennonGoldeye 03-07-07, 08:52 AM	Just call me the Hannibal lector of Netheril. One could never accuse Hannibal of being uncivilized despite his preference for human flesh! Bren go eat a frog! Be careful what you wish for Frenchy. :whatsthis
Karsus the Mad 03-07-07, 10:46 AM	Just call me the Hannibal lector of Netheril. One could never accuse Hannibal of being uncivilized despite his preference for human flesh! Bren go eat a frog! I have an NPC you'd love then, you sicko:P Name: Lorinel Hearthkeep (or 'the Hinphiliac') Level: Expert 2 (or Rogue 3) Alignment: NG (or CE) Deity: Waukeen Gender/Race: Male Durpari DoB/Age: Unknown (physically mid 40's) Region: Luiren, Estagund, and Durpar. Lorinel Hearthkeep, a leather merchant hailing from Durpar, has successfully built his mercantile business from the ground up dealing in rare and exotic skins tailored to meet even the most demanding of customers. He has a kind soul and a broad smile. He delights in sharing his good fortune with those small communities he often passes through and has a special place in his heart for the children of those towns and hamlets. He especially adores halfling children and always has a collection of fried tasty treats in which to delight the young boys and girls. On occasion however, his fondness for the young and innocent manifests to an extreme and vile manner. On these rare occasions, Lorinel takes on another personality, one that has no name but is known as the hinphiliac amongst the families of his victims. This side of Lorinel has a fascination with halfling children, a fascination that leads him to brutally play with 'his children' by slowly eating fingers, toes, and other parts before murdering them. He then performs heineous and perverse acts to their corpses, and finally skins them and boils down the fat to use in cooking. After performing these acts and disposing of what little remains, the personality of Lorinel resurfaces without memory of the deed. All Lorinel is aware of is that he has a new batch of cakes in which he can share amongst his favorite halfling children while continuing on his way to market.
Ioulaum 03-07-07, 02:54 PM	I suppose that rules out illithids as being civilized sentients?:P Then again, some eat snails.......and they're considered civilized.... Hey i resemble that remark :P snails are great, fry then dip in cheese :P
Karsus the Mad 03-07-07, 03:01 PM	You're also a big, undead brain;)
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-07-07, 04:38 PM	Be careful what you wish for Frenchy. :whatsthis FRENCHY!!! BrenBrowneye only you could find thee most vile insult in the book! I’m so offended by that remark I have nothing else to say except…..NUKE the French!:)
BrennonGoldeye 03-07-07, 09:44 PM	FRENCHY!!! BrenBrowneye only you could find thee most vile insult in the book! I’m so offended by that remark I have nothing else to say except…..NUKE the French!:) At this point I would like to appologize to all our french posters.:)
Spelldancer 03-08-07, 12:28 AM	In one campaign I played the DM did just this Enchantment/Charm was given to Sune Abjuration to Helm Divination to Savaras Illusion to Cyric Necromancy to Vershoon(sp?) Alteration to Azuth Conjuration/Summoning and Ecovation I can't recall off hand.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-08-07, 12:52 AM	In one campaign I played the DM did just this Enchantment/Charm was given to Sune Abjuration to Helm Divination to Savaras Illusion to Cyric Necromancy to Vershoon(sp?) Alteration to Azuth Conjuration/Summoning and Ecovation I can't recall off hand. That doesn’t make sense! But what ever. I think Mystra would probably just find a bunch of specialists and upgrade them to demigods like V an S. Cyric should be striped of Illusion as it doesn’t make a lot of sense with his portfolio combination.
Lord Karsus 03-08-07, 09:04 AM	FRENCHY!!! BrenBrowneye only you could find thee most vile insult in the book! I’m so offended by that remark I have nothing else to say except…..NUKE the French!:) -I am not even goign to approach that one with a ten foot pole. Need I remind you that without the French, there would be no United States of America? You're also a big, undead brain;) -You always raise such good points. I am always happy that you are me! :) That doesn’t make sense!...Cyric should be striped of Illusion as it doesn’t make a lot of sense with his portfolio combination. -Yes it does, considering that Cyric is the deity of intrigue, and he did kill and subsime Liera, the Mistress of Illusions.
MarkusTay63 03-08-07, 09:44 AM	That doesn’t make sense! But what ever.I think it looks fine. -I am not even goign to approach that one with a ten foot pole. Need I remind you that without the French, there would be no United States of America?I am neither touching that remark, NOR your 10 foot pole. :P
Lord Karsus 03-08-07, 05:59 PM	I am neither touching that remark, NOR your 10 foot pole. :P -Well, you know what? I don't want to be touched with a 10-foot pole, either.
Karsus the Mad 03-08-07, 09:25 PM	-I am not even goign to approach that one with a ten foot pole. Need I remind you that without the French, there would be no United States of America? While not myself needed. personally. I will beat the living hell out of you. You mean despite the french.
MaskedOne 03-08-07, 09:57 PM	The balance sheet between the U.S. and France was pretty much evened out if not reversed over the last 100 years. Yes, they provided aid in the Revolution. Yes we ended up helping Britain save their neck in WW2 as well as providing aid in WW1. Some other topic please. 9 times out of 10 RL politics and history don't mix with this board.
Karsus the Mad 03-08-07, 10:14 PM	Uhhh...you did note "despite".....right? Please say you did....or am I thinking, discussing, and posting on an entirely different plane of existence?
MaskedOne 03-08-07, 10:44 PM	Uhhh...you did note "despite".....right? Please say you did....or am I thinking, discussing, and posting on an entirely different plane of existence? Wasn't really responding to you and don't fully agree. France did at one point provide signifcant and perhaps critical aid. That point just isn't particularly recent nor does it greatly overrule that barring US intervention, they may have stayed German quite a bit longer. Both views have validity just not enough that I really care.
Karsus the Mad 03-08-07, 10:58 PM	Wasn't really responding to you and don't fully agree. France did at one point provide signifcant and perhaps critical aid. That point just isn't particularly recent nor does it greatly overrule that barring US intervention, they may have stayed German quite a bit longer. Both views have validity just not enough that I really care. Hmm What? Dunno what you're talking of. I'm in Finland:D I think I was talking about beating the living hell out of LLKN, which I'd be happy to participate in, even if that's not what I was talking of..... unless you give me a beer of course.....
MaskedOne 03-08-07, 11:05 PM	If you want to blast LLKN, feel free. Twerp thinks he fried me with one half baked assault, he on his own as long you don't start meddling with souls. As for drinks, sorry standard policy is that public drink risks being publically drunk and the acquisition of blackmail material. Drinks must be aquired elsewhere as I'm too lazy tonight to arrange records.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-09-07, 02:59 AM	-Well, you know what? I don't want to be touched with a 10-foot pole, either. Need I remind you and the French that without the United States there would be no France twice over! So I think they owe us one! They can start by actually helping out with the GWOT instead of hindering our efforts!:P
Lord Karsus 03-09-07, 10:02 AM	Need I remind you and the French that without the United States there would be no France twice over! So I think they owe us one! They can start by actually helping out with the GWOT instead of hindering our efforts!:P -You see, there is this wonderful concept called state soverignty, which, in it's basic sense, means that a state government is entitled to operate however it pleases. Thus, they don't have to aid on the "War on Terror". And anyway, what kind of friend would you rather have: A friend who goes along with everything that you do, saying nothing, or a friend who points out when you are doing something stupid? I know I'd prefer the latter. But, now we're talking about politics, which is a no-no. If you want to continue this, PM me...
GothicDan 03-09-07, 01:11 PM	I guess the fact that I think a war on a concept is idiotic makes me French, then?
Lord Karsus 03-09-07, 01:45 PM	I guess the fact that I think a war on a concept is idiotic makes me French, then? -Not French, or idiotic, but a little silly, especially considering that one of the definitions of 'War' is simply, "a struggle".
GothicDan 03-09-07, 01:47 PM	Yes, because it's obvious that the administration looked up all the myriad definitions of the word, rather than just using a more common and applicable one to refer to what they were ACTUALLY getting at. *Finger pointing.* I CALL BULLSH*T, SIR!
Alediran 03-09-07, 01:52 PM	I'm with you on that one GD, from outside USA the whole War on terror smells like crap.
Lord Karsus 03-09-07, 02:02 PM	Yes, because it's obvious that the administration looked up all the myriad definitions of the word, rather than just using a more common and applicable one to refer to what they were ACTUALLY getting at. *Finger pointing.* I CALL BULLSH*T, SIR! -Again, we're going down a road we should not be going down. But, if there is not a war going on, then please, enlighten me. What is going on? Why do I constantly see images of a (seemingly) Middle-Eastern nation, with (seemingly) U.S. soldiers running around, doing various things? -Or, did those people who produced the lunar landing strike again? :incog:
GothicDan 03-09-07, 02:03 PM	There is a War going on against PEOPLE. Not Terror. You cannot defeat terror; it's a primal human emotion. Even hyenas used 'terrorism' tactics by striking fear and disease into their opponents. Focusing on getting rid of terror is like focusing on eradicating bacteria.
Lord Karsus 03-09-07, 02:08 PM	Focusing on getting rid of terror is like focusing on eradicating bacteria. -Which is possible, mind you, in today's day and age, one bacterium at a time.
GothicDan 03-09-07, 02:14 PM	It's possible. And idiotic. By definition, something has to exist to be idiotic.
Lord Karsus 03-09-07, 02:19 PM	-Like you (to tie this back to the original tangent)! ;) :P
GothicDan 03-09-07, 02:20 PM	No, like YOU!
Lord Karsus 03-09-07, 02:22 PM	-You x 1 million, always one more than you!
Alediran 03-09-07, 02:25 PM	And at least infinite times both of you and no way of including me on that.
GothicDan 03-09-07, 02:27 PM	You times x, as x approaches infinity, since anything times infinity itself is undefined by nature! No mathematical arguments with someone studying math!
Lord Karsus 03-09-07, 02:32 PM	You times x, as x approaches infinity, since anything times infinity itself is undefined by nature! No mathematical arguments with someone studying math! -I am still one up on you, though. That is the best clause to throw into name calling competitions. ;)
GothicDan 03-09-07, 02:48 PM	Nope. Infinity + 1 is also undefined!
Lord Karsus 03-09-07, 03:13 PM	-You are missing the point though. I will always be one up on you, no matter what. Give up!
GothicDan 03-09-07, 03:27 PM	Your math is flawed, sirrah!
Lord Karsus 03-09-07, 03:29 PM	-I'm into making up my own imaginary numbers. I figure that, since they are not real anyway, no harm can come to anyone/anything. ;)
Stigger 03-09-07, 05:04 PM	What you don't know can kick the living hell out of you anyway... whether you believe in it or not. Case in point, my wife (jokingly) refuses to believe in bacteria since the world is just too disgusting with them in it...
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-09-07, 09:36 PM	The “War on Terror” is just a fancy name to keep the rubs in our country entertained. Actually we are in several wars right now. War on Drugs, War on Tobacco, War on Bullies in our Schools, War on Guns. ECT! I mean name something our government has not declared war on in the last 20 years. It doesn’t matter what you call it. This is how American’s make themselves feel good. If we justify our actions as righteous then we can sleep at night. This is why America is great! Most countries throughout history didn’t need a lot of moral reasons to go to war. They have something we want, lets go get it. Not us! American’s like to feel vindicated when we wreak a countries infrastructure. Doesn’t really matter though once they put up a McDonalds they are ours! I’m a nationalist. I don’t need a moral reason. You don’t agree with our policies tiny little what ever county. Well to bad! Boom! As sad as it is to conceive of the world it still a very might makes right environment. The strong will always rule the weak. When Christ said “the meek shall inherit the Earth” he meant 6ft under the Earth. The meek shall indeed inherit the earth in that sense. Ok, that’s all the politics you’ll get out of me;):D
Lord Karsus 03-09-07, 09:40 PM	...War on Bullies in our Schools... -I didn't know that we were at war against the bullies in our schools as well. Can't find it on Wiki...I am assuming you just "coined the term", so to speak.
Alediran 03-09-07, 10:40 PM	LLKN: the real reason for the government to create causes for war is to have the peolpe on their side, because since Vietnam they had to do that or the citizens where against any war. There are many evidences about a self-attack (or a known attack but allowed to continue like Pearl Harbor, if you don't belive me then read the statistical deaths, the planes crashed during the cleaning hours, most people in the towers were latin americans) on the Twin Towers and the Penthagon (wich it's too obvious that it was a missile that hit it, a plane could never make that kind of destruction at such low level, there are many security mechanisms that force planes to a minimal altitude level unless they are going to land)
GothicDan 03-09-07, 10:43 PM	Lucy, you have GOT to be 15. In the end, the strong (singular or collective) do always rule the weak. But part of enduring strength is being SUBTLE and evasive. You don't seem to have picked that up yet. Do you think Bill Gates rose to be the richest (and by extension, one of the most influential) men in the world by beating people up? No, he used his BRAIN. In the modern world, it's BRAIN strength that 'makes right.'
Lord Karsus 03-09-07, 11:47 PM	There are many evidences about a self-attack (or a known attack but allowed to continue like Pearl Harbor, if you don't belive me then read the statistical deaths, the planes crashed during the cleaning hours, most people in the towers were latin americans) on the Twin Towers and the Penthagon (wich it's too obvious that it was a missile that hit it, a plane could never make that kind of destruction at such low level, there are many security mechanisms that force planes to a minimal altitude level unless they are going to land) -A few points. Firstly, there is little evidence that points to the theory that Roosevelt was aware of the attack on Pearl Harbor, and the majority of evidence points otherwise. Secondly, the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor took place early on a Sunday, when most of the naval ensigns/officers were either sleeping or attending religious ceremonies. I don't know if those were "cleaning hours" or not. Could be. Thirdly, the majority of people who were killed in the World Trade Center on 9/11 were not Latin American. Fourthly, there is no proof to demonstrate that a missile struck the Pentagon on 9/11. In the modern world, it's BRAIN strength that 'makes right.' -No it's not always. Majority of the time, it's not. Money makes right. One does not need to be smart to have money. Look at, for example, President Bush, who had a C average in college, but is still one of the principle policy formulators in the world (along with his administration). -Now, anyway, how 'bout that Mystra, eh? Yep...
Stigger 03-10-07, 12:15 AM	I'm in favor of Mystra, want to see the rest of the pretenders stripped of their divine essence and fed to the MGSH's... except for maybe Azuth... he might just have his toes nibbled off.
MaskedOne 03-10-07, 12:30 AM	-Now, anyway, how 'bout that Mystra, eh? Yep... Hmm, what about the greatest divinity in Realmspace?:) If I start proclaiming the glory of Mystra say every other post, how long do you think it will take people to decide that absolutely must counter act such a disturbing trend and abandon RL politics for the simpler and more direct joy of questioning my sanity, intellect and knowledge of canon?
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-10-07, 01:49 AM	Lucy, you have GOT to be 15. In the end, the strong (singular or collective) do always rule the weak. But part of enduring strength is being SUBTLE and evasive. You don't seem to have picked that up yet. Do you think Bill Gates rose to be the richest (and by extension, one of the most influential) men in the world by beating people up? No, he used his BRAIN. In the modern world, it's BRAIN strength that 'makes right.' Gothic Fan! I never insulted you! I merely stated some of my political musings. There was no reason for name calling! If we are going to discuss politics why don’t’ you try to be a little less childish. This is not an insult. It’s a suggestion. You can take it or leave it. How you react will tell us who the child is here. Might whether it’s brut force, brains, or financial or political clout makes right. Might is a pretty broad word Dan. Why don’t you Google it before you go off ranting again. Bill Gates is indeed a mighty foe. As a matter of fact nothing I said before contradicts anything you said. You restated and reinforced my argument. Insulting my age and experience is rather silly since we agree. It’s funny how some people just go off and write all kinds of stuff without fully assimilating what they read. Those people that don’t really listen they just wait for their turn to talk. Go watch 300 Gothicfan. So anyways! How about that Mystra?:D Does Forgotten Realms really need a Goddess of Magic? Why not just access raw magic!
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-10-07, 01:52 AM	LLKN: the real reason for the government to create causes for war is to have the peolpe on their side, because since Vietnam they had to do that or the citizens where against any war. There are many evidences about a self-attack (or a known attack but allowed to continue like Pearl Harbor, if you don't belive me then read the statistical deaths, the planes crashed during the cleaning hours, most people in the towers were latin americans) on the Twin Towers and the Penthagon (wich it's too obvious that it was a missile that hit it, a plane could never make that kind of destruction at such low level, there are many security mechanisms that force planes to a minimal altitude level unless they are going to land) I would like to respond, but I have no clue what you are talking about. Form a coherent thought and get back to me. Try a University. They help lots of people learn to think.:P Missile indeed! Oh yeah and they filmed the moon landings in Hollywood! yeah right...
Stigger 03-10-07, 02:03 AM	More conspiracy theories on 9/11... there is no evidence what so ever to support that. I'd love for there to actually be some so we could start a few rounds of impeachment, but there's just not... and with the number of people that would have had to have been involved, it's about as close to impossible as one can get that someone wouldn't have spilled their guts by now in a twinge of conscience. As to the Realms needing a godess of magic... yes, far more than we need another Karsii running about. :P
Alediran 03-10-07, 08:56 AM	I would like to respond, but I have no clue what you are talking about. Form a coherent thought and get back to me. Try a University. They help lots of people learn to think.:P Missile indeed! Oh yeah and they filmed the moon landings in Hollywood! yeah right... FYI, I'm both doing the Systems Engineer (that is the name for the computers carrer in argentina) and Professional Cheff carrers. :cool: And I also have a high school degree on human sciences. *Alediran stops showing off* It's completely sure that our opinions and information will clash, while you are a nationalist, I consider myself an earthling, the concept of countries only helps dividing humanity (and no, I'm not comunist, no political system has atracted my curiosity to it, democracy has good and bad things, comunism too, the ****** cold war did exactly the oposite of what should have been done, finding out common ground to create a new system with the strenghts of both) P.S: I carreer is not what it means about what I'm refering, please add correct wod.
GothicDan 03-10-07, 11:38 AM	I never insulted you. I merely stated some of my politic musings. There was no reason for name calling? I never called you a name, either. And are you putting a punctuation mark there for a reason? If we are going to discuss politics why don’t’ you try to be a little less childish. This is not an insult. It’s a suggestion. You can take it or leave it. How you react will tell us who the child is here. Yes, yes it will. And I think it's pretty obvious that it's you. Might whether it’s brut force, brains, or financial or political clout makes right. Might is a pretty broad word Dan. Why don’t you Google it before you go off ranting again. I'm hoping by 'google' you mean 'look it up in a dictionary,' since certainly all of the hits that I return from google will not apply to the definition of a word. Bill Gates is indeed a mighty foe. As a matter of fact nothing I said before contradicts anything you said. You restated and reinforced my argument. Insulting my age and experience is rather silly since we agree. When you say things like, 'If someone disagrees with me? BOOM! I shoot a missile at them!', I think I (or anyone else) has every right to insult your age and experience. I was only saying what many others have been thinking on these boards, but have feared to do so. At this point, I care little for the WizO's punishing me, because I use these boards entirely for recreation. If I get banned, that's cool. It’s funny how some people just go off and write all kinds of stuff without fully assimilating what they read. Those people that don’t really listen they just wait for their turn to talk. Just because someone's statement doesn't take into account your flawed logic doesn't mean that they didn't listen. It means that they consider your opinion rubbish. Go watch 300 Gothicfan. I'm going on Sunday with the rest of my fraternity. But I'd rather see a movie about Athens!
Lord Karsus 03-10-07, 06:19 PM	FYI, I'm both doing the Systems Engineer (that is the name for the computers carrer in argentina) and Professional Cheff carrers. -Woo Hoo! Go Alediran, doing two people at once!! :D
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-10-07, 07:56 PM	Yes, yes it will. And I think it's pretty obvious that it's you. I'm hoping by 'google' you mean 'look it up in a dictionary,' since certainly all of the hits that I return from google will not apply to the definition of a word. When you say things like, 'If someone disagrees with me? BOOM! I shoot a missile at them!', I think I (or anyone else) has every right to insult your age and experience. I was only saying what many others have been thinking on these boards, but have feared to do so. At this point, I care little for the WizO's punishing me, because I use these boards entirely for recreation. If I get banned, that's cool. Just because someone's statement doesn't take into account your flawed logic doesn't mean that they didn't listen. It means that they consider your opinion rubbish. Dearest GothicBland, I recommended google, because I thought a dictionary would be way too complicated for you. The missile comment was sarcastic! If you read my post many many times you might briefly glimmer some sort of insight! I’m sure the insight will be brief since you don’t care what anyone says. Failing to take someone’s statements into account, because you consider them rubbish doesn’t win you arguments. It just makes you annoying. Failing to consider others arguments before you make statements however makes you ignorant.:( Of course I would never accuse you of being ignorant, because after all YOU speak for everyone on these boards and people wouldn’t relinquish there decision makes processes to an ignorant person.:rolleyes: Anyways can we get back to all the reasons Mystra sucks at life!?:D
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-10-07, 07:59 PM	FYI, I'm both doing the Systems Engineer (that is the name for the computers carrer in argentina) and Professional Cheff carrers. :cool: And I also have a high school degree on human sciences. *Alediran stops showing off* It's completely sure that our opinions and information will clash, while you are a nationalist, I consider myself an earthling, the concept of countries only helps dividing humanity (and no, I'm not comunist, no political system has atracted my curiosity to it, democracy has good and bad things, comunism too, the ****** cold war did exactly the oposite of what should have been done, finding out common ground to create a new system with the strenghts of both) P.S: I carreer is not what it means about what I'm refering, please add correct wod. Ummm yeah, where to begin….. Oh nevermind! Got nothing for you carry on. Watch out for Big Brother! They are watching you!
Lord Karsus 03-10-07, 08:06 PM	-I'll just keep my mouth shut.
GothicDan 03-11-07, 03:17 AM	I recommended google, because I thought a dictionary would be way too complicated for you. Why would you assume a dictionary would be too complicated for someone who recently received a Latin to English dictionary for Christmas? I'm not trying to be self aggrandizing; I'm merely speculating as to your assumptions concerning my cognitive abilities of analysis. The missile comment was sarcastic! If you read my post many many times you might briefly glimmer some sort of insight! I’m sure the insight will be brief since you don’t care what anyone says. I see no sarcasm in your post. Sarcasm is very often expressed, in English, in tone of voice, which the internet lacks. And I care what people say, if what they're saying has merit. Failing to take someone’s statements into account, because you consider them rubbish doesn’t win you arguments. It does if their opinions don't make any sense in the first place. It just makes you annoying. Failing to consider others arguments before you make statements however makes you ignorant. No, ignorance is a lack of knowledge. What you're pointing out is exactly what you did to Alediran above. Of course I would never accuse you of being ignorant, because after all YOU speak for everyone on these boards and people wouldn’t relinquish there decision makes processes to an ignorant person. Since I make my opinions from strongly fortified standpoints and with confidece, I understand where you would assume that I in some way have received some sort of laudes from members of these boards that would make me believe I was representative of the majority here. I, however, am not, and many can vouch that I have said I am in the minority on many occasions. Confidence is not the same thing as self-appointed representation. I'm sorry that you've confused the two.
MarkusTay63 03-11-07, 03:31 AM	Anyways can we get back to all the reasons Mystra sucks at life!?:DWrong thread there, bucko. There are at least two others for that, including the current Why'd she do it? thread. THIS THREAD is supposed to be about an INTELLIGENT discussion as to alternatives to the current arrangement of how magic and the devine inter-relate. The fact that our good friend Xun created this thread doesn't neccessarily mean it should be an anti-chosen/anti-Mystra flame-fest. Getting back to topic - I have NO problem handing out different aspects of Mystra's portfolio to other powers, and just leave her as gaurdian of the Weave. I don't think it's at all neccessary to give each and every school of magic to a different god, but that does sound like an interesting basis for a non-FR campaign.
Stigger 03-11-07, 12:58 PM	I have a problem with it... personally I'd punt Vel into the astral to be colonized by Gith and just leave it as Mystra and Azuth running the show. As for Savras, he has Fate and Truth in his portfolio, so I'd probably prefer that he lose divination and take on prophecy as part of his portfolio and turn him much more towards the mystical, maybe forming an alliance with Sehanine and Mystra and acting as a bridge between them maybe...
BrennonGoldeye 03-11-07, 01:33 PM	Anyways can we get back to all the reasons Mystra sucks at life!? There are at least two others for that, including the current Why'd she do it? thread. Hey now. I started that thread and it isn't a hater thread. Well, haters seem to have fun there. As to this thread. LLKN, you might want to start being nice to Xun, you only have one Ethyl.;)
GothicDan 03-11-07, 01:45 PM	Bwahaha. Go Bren!
BrennonGoldeye 03-11-07, 02:07 PM	:bravo:
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-11-07, 04:26 PM	Why would you assume a dictionary would be too complicated for someone who recently received a Latin to English dictionary for Christmas? I'm not trying to be self aggrandizing; I'm merely speculating as to your assumptions concerning my cognitive abilities of analysis. Since I make my opinions from strongly fortified standpoints and with confidece, I understand where you would assume that I in some way have received some sort of laudes from members of these boards that would make me believe I was representative of the majority here. I, however, am not, and many can vouch that I have said I am in the minority on many occasions. Confidence is not the same thing as self-appointed representation. I'm sorry that you've confused the two. Well do be clearer with your self aggrandizing claims in the future. For the sanity of all.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-11-07, 04:31 PM	Personally I think Mystra could use the help of 8 demigods. Being guardian of the weave seems to be kicking her ass. Plus it would allow specialists to have a preferred God. Still don’t like Val. I think Tam should kill him subsume his portfolio and rule Thay as a Theocracy. Bren I will start being nice to Xun when he stops making asinine unfounded claims about prominent Realms NPCs! Which probably won’t happen. I only have one what? Ethyl?
GothicDan 03-11-07, 07:40 PM	Well do be clearer with your self aggrandizing claims in the future. For the sanity of all. If by 'all' you mean 'you,' then that statement is correct. No one else seems to be having trouble following my logic on this thread. Do you need Ethyl to help you figure out this complicated caper?
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-11-07, 08:11 PM	If by 'all' you mean 'you,' then that statement is correct. No one else seems to be having trouble following my logic on this thread. Do you need Ethyl to help you figure out this complicated caper? You were the one that took the Thread on this tangent. Not me. So bugger off.:rolleyes:
GothicDan 03-11-07, 08:42 PM	No, I didn't. That started way back when people started throwing the French around, which led to a discussion of politics and morality. Oh, and this post from you: "Just call me the Hannibal lector of Netheril. One could never accuse Hannibal of being uncivilized despite his preference for human flesh! Bren go eat a frog!" Yes... I can see quite how topical THAT was.
Wizard56 03-11-07, 08:47 PM	If Mystra really wants to spread magic around, maybe the idea of a demigod for each school is workable. That might encourage the increase in specialist wizards, since most wizards seem to have at least one preferred school anyway. Azuth could supervise the demigods.
GothicDan 03-11-07, 08:49 PM	I've always liked the idea of a pantheon derived specifically from a magocratic culture, myself.
Wizard56 03-11-07, 08:52 PM	Personally, I like a magic-rich society.
Lord Karsus 03-12-07, 12:08 AM	-It's Ethel! Ethel!! -Ethyl is an alcohol, and not a name...For a bunch of supposedly "smart" people...:nonono: :P
Wizard56 03-12-07, 12:20 AM	Ethyl is what you give Ethel to get her ready....
Lord Karsus 03-12-07, 12:35 AM	Ethyl is what you give Ethel to get her ready.... -Indeed, it is...Though, I have yet to meet an Ethel who is less than 50 or so. I don't know if anyone really wants to get 50-year-old Ethel "ready"...;)
Karsus the Mad 03-12-07, 12:39 AM	Ethel is the name of my grandmother...<shudders> you can be the first to swoon her.
Stigger 03-12-07, 01:15 AM	Oh how once mighty threads are fallen...
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-12-07, 02:20 AM	Umm yeah so demigods of each school of magic sound like a good idea. Maybe Azuth can father them.
Arbourean 03-12-07, 02:30 AM	I don't see what is wrong with keeping Mystra as goddess of magic. If she's powerful enough to lay the cosmic smackdown on Ao then even better. He's completely useless and should not be invincible, in fact I believe Crucible eluded that the Greater gods warred with beings power powerful than Ao himself; and Cyric in his madness showed everything that he was capable of being Ao's equal in power.
Lord Karsus 03-12-07, 10:22 AM	I don't see what is wrong with keeping Mystra as goddess of magic. If she's powerful enough to lay the cosmic smackdown on Ao then even better. He's completely useless and should not be invincible, in fact I believe Crucible eluded that the Greater gods warred with beings power powerful than Ao himself; and Cyric in his madness showed everything that he was capable of being Ao's equal in power. -Ao is unparalleled in power. Neither Mystra, nor Cyric, nor any other deities can compare. And remember what Cyric was, at the time- mad (As in the crazy sense).
Karsus the Mad 03-12-07, 10:51 AM	Within Realmspace, AO is supreme. He created them, and as he's demonstrated at least once, he can put them down with merely a whim. I'm not too fond of him:) I like the idea of 8 deities for each school of magic tho'. There's already some that cover a few schools in the Pantheon, why not the rest?
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-12-07, 03:51 PM	I don't see what is wrong with keeping Mystra as goddess of magic. If she's powerful enough to lay the cosmic smackdown on Ao then even better. He's completely useless and should not be invincible, in fact I believe Crucible eluded that the Greater gods warred with beings power powerful than Ao himself; and Cyric in his madness showed everything that he was capable of being Ao's equal in power. Yeah Cyric had a lot of divine hallucinations in Crucible. His power is far beneath Ao. Ao is the over god and neither Mystra nor Cyric have the power so unseat him. Even if all the gods baned together they could not unseat him. I would like to see Cyric dead he has always been kind of a Pathetic evil God.
ShadezofDis 03-12-07, 03:58 PM	Yeah Cyric had a lot of divine hallucinations in Crucible. His power is far beneath Ao. Ao is the over god and neither Mystra nor Cyric have the power so unseat him. Even if all the gods baned together they could not unseat him. I would like to see Cyric dead he has always been kind of a Pathetic evil God. I don't know how pathetic it is to destroy the last vestiges of Greater God's loves. . . but that's just me. :)
Wizard56 03-12-07, 05:47 PM	Actually, Leira or Mask used to come close to being a god of illusions. Not specifically, but their portfolios came close. Tempus having evocation with all that battle magic would be intriguing as well.
Karsus the Mad 03-12-07, 06:00 PM	Actually, Leira or Mask used to come close to being a god of illusions. Not specifically, but their portfolios came close. Tempus having evocation with all that battle magic would be intriguing as well. Well, Talos was/is attempting to get Wild Magic away from Mystra. Not sure if that'd be good or bad, or even interesting tho':) Tempus getting evocation...ehhhh...not sure about that. Battle Magic yeah, but not evocation. There's more than just the 8 schools also. There's aspects as well. Battle Magic, Wild Magic, Good, Neutral, Evil (like the Mulhorandi Pantheon) Magic, etc. Depends all on how specific one wants magic defined:)
Lord Karsus 03-12-07, 06:15 PM	-There is a DRAGON Magazine that talks about War Magic...Issue #309. If Tempus was trying to finagle some kind of magic portfolio from Mystra, I'd give the War Magic to him.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-14-07, 01:46 AM	Actually, Leira or Mask used to come close to being a god of illusions. Not specifically, but their portfolios came close. Tempus having evocation with all that battle magic would be intriguing as well. Leira came close? I’m pretty sure she was the Goddess of Illusion and one of Masks only allies, but his dumb ass sold her out to Cyric.:cool:
Stigger 03-14-07, 02:55 AM	Garl Glittergold should be given Illusion if it does happen, which I hope it doesn't... Gnomes FTW
Lord Karsus 03-14-07, 09:49 AM	Leira came close? I’m pretty sure she was the Goddess of Illusion and one of Masks only allies, but his dumb ass sold her out to Cyric.:cool: -Liera's allies were Mask and Azuth. Mask's allies (strangely enough) are/were all dead- Bane, Bhaal, Liera and Ibrandul. Nice going, Mask... -What does FTW mean anyway?
Karsus the Mad 03-14-07, 10:15 AM	-What does FTW mean anyway? Fuzzy Twit Wankers? For The World? Fooba Tor Woohoo? Find The Women? For The Wise? Fried Tasty Weasel? Friendly Torilian Wemics? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTW It's also WTF backwards, and we all know that one.
Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron 03-14-07, 10:25 AM	Garl Glittergold should be given Illusion if it does happen, which I hope it doesn't... Gnomes FTW I think I would rather have a human God of Illusion Stigger! On the other hand what would a divine Gnome taste like? FTW?
Lord Karsus 03-14-07, 10:26 AM	Fuzzy Twit Wankers? For The World? Fooba Tor Woohoo? Find The Women? For The Wise? Fried Tasty Weasel? Friendly Torilian Wemics? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FTW It's also WTF backwards, and we all know that one. -Oh, that clears it up a whole lot...
Karsus the Mad 03-14-07, 10:34 AM	-Oh, that clears it up a whole lot... I figured it would. You're welcome:tie:
Wizard56 03-14-07, 02:39 PM	From the looks of this thread, there's a whole lot of Karsus going on....
Lord Karsus 03-14-07, 07:05 PM	From the looks of this thread, there's a whole lot of Karsus going on.... -Only two-thirds.
Stigger 03-15-07, 05:47 PM	Gnome, gnome, gnome, gnome, gnome, gnome, gnome, gnome... I'd still rather have Garl in charge of it... if humans deities can intrude into other races pantheons (Tymora particularly... or Gond for that matter), why can't the other races sneak into the human ones? :P
Lindwyrm 03-18-07, 09:39 PM	You mean like Elistrae? Anyway. In my opinion leave Mystra with the portfolio of Magic, generally and specifically Magic. She is after all by canon the sentient personification of the weave. If other deities want to obtain aspects of this, then fine, they can, but Mystra will still have priority in the magical fields. If specialist deities are needed, then where better to look than some of Thay's finest? They aren't all evil. Just most of them...
Alediran 03-19-07, 09:03 AM	Halruaans would be much better.
Lord Karsus 03-19-07, 09:58 AM	-You know, me and KtM would be quite willing to take all those portfolios off of Mystra's hands.
Karsus the Mad 03-19-07, 10:28 AM	-You know, me and KtM would be quite willing to take all those portfolios off of Mystra's hands. Yup. We'd also have to have a discussion with Lathander, Azuth, Oghma, and Milil about those other portfolio's of Mystryl's.....
MaskedOne 03-19-07, 06:13 PM	Let's pass on handing Mystra's power to Karsi. The results were messy enough the first time. Now, if the Great Momentary One would like to provide competent administration over the Shadow Weave then perhaps we arrangements can be made. Hmm, there are one or two other fields that perhaps need a new administrator but I need to discuss those with Mystra a bit more.
Lord Karsus 03-19-07, 11:10 PM	Let's pass on handing Mystra's power to Karsi. The results were messy enough the first time. Now, if the Great Momentary One would like to provide competent administration over the Shadow Weave then perhaps we arrangements can be made. -You see, the first time, things were messy because we took the portfolio from Mystryl forcibly. If Mystra gave us a portfolio or three, things would work out great for everyone. No cataclysms this time. -Oh, and we'll pass with the Shadow Weave. We have scruples, you know. Well, we have what passes for scruples 'round here, anyway.
MaskedOne 03-19-07, 11:26 PM	-Oh, and we'll pass with the Shadow Weave. We have scruples, you know. Well, we have what passes for scruples 'round here, anyway. Precisely, why I offered. Shar does not have scruples and her toy cannot be left in her hands. If prior agreements could be reached as to the use of the Shadow Weave with a competent administrator then perhaps her toy could be modified and used for something worthwhile. Otherwise, well other less optimistic arrangements can be made.
Lord Karsus 03-19-07, 11:47 PM	If prior agreements could be reached as to the use of the Shadow Weave with a competent administrator then perhaps her toy could be modified and used for something worthwhile. -The only way this aspect would agree to that would be if it could be modified not to exist anymore. But, in that case, there would be no point taking the portfilio- it'd be a lose/lose situation.
Karsus the Mad 03-20-07, 12:11 AM	Destroy it? Why? We could use it as the net for the Pantheonic Volley Ball Championship between Sune and Sharess.
Stigger 03-20-07, 01:02 AM	Destroy it? Why? We could use it as the net for the Pantheonic Volley Ball Championship between Sune and Sharess. I vote for this use of it completely and utterly...
Lord Karsus 03-20-07, 09:05 AM	Destroy it? Why? We could use it as the net for the Pantheonic Volley Ball Championship between Sune and Sharess. -Hmmm...Good point. Let's also invite Hanali Celanil. We're not inviting that Dwarven goddess, though. I'm sure you remember how that turned out, last time...:yuck:
Karsus the Mad 03-20-07, 09:33 AM	-Hmmm...Good point. Let's also invite Hanali Celanil. We're not inviting that Dwarven goddess, though. I'm sure you remember how that turned out, last time...:yuck: Yes....yes...she showed up looking like this http://ewancient.lysator.liu.se/pic/art/c/s/cs1k2cs1m/dwarf.jpg "WARNING: May cause temporary blindness, insanity, and eventual death of any sexuality you may have or will have in the next decade. The poster (that'd be me) is not responsible for any harm caused by viewing the content."
Alediran 03-20-07, 10:19 AM	Yes....yes...she showed up looking like this http://ewancient.lysator.liu.se/pic/art/c/s/cs1k2cs1m/dwarf.jpg Sweet merciful gods, my poor useless eyes! :eek: You all know I'm voting for Hanali on this.
Karsus the Mad 03-20-07, 10:40 AM	Oops...forgot to put a warning with that...sorry Alediran:embarrass Fixed
Alediran 03-20-07, 11:23 AM	I preffer to kiss a grell rather than seeing another half-naked dwarven female. At least she didn't had beard (yuck)
Karsus the Mad 03-20-07, 11:36 AM	Hehe...ya might want to check it again;) She does have a beard. A nice breaded beard to boot:embarrass
Alediran 03-20-07, 11:38 AM	Then you see the power of that image, it blinded me so quickly that I didn't have time to see if she has a beard.
Lord Karsus 03-20-07, 01:24 PM	Yes....yes...she showed up looking like this http://ewancient.lysator.liu.se/pic/art/c/s/cs1k2cs1m/dwarf.jpg "WARNING: May cause temporary blindness, insanity, and eventual death of any sexuality you may have or will have in the next decade. The poster (that'd be me) is not responsible for any harm caused by viewing the content." -Yes, yes she did. -At least we didn't invite that Orcish goddess...:shifty:
Karsus the Mad 03-20-07, 01:31 PM	You mean this...no, no I won't post the link:evillaugh Even I'm not that sick...:incog:
Lord Karsus 03-20-07, 01:33 PM	You mean this...no, no I won't post the link:evillaugh Even I'm not that sick...:incog: -Can I cast Suggestion on myself? Eh, why not? :: Casts Suggestion :: -You know you want to post that link...Do it...
Karsus the Mad 03-20-07, 02:01 PM	-Can I cast Suggestion on myself? Eh, why not? :: Casts Suggestion :: In the case of requesting something obviously harmful, the spell has no effect. This would most certainly qualify as being harmful... -You know you want to post that link...Do it... Yeah, actually I DO:P But I really can't:) I'll PM you the link tho' if you really want me to:plotting: :evillaugh
Lord Karsus 03-20-07, 06:30 PM	Yeah, actually I DO:P But I really can't:) I'll PM you the link tho' if you really want me to:plotting: :evillaugh -Doitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoit doitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoit...
BrennonGoldeye 03-20-07, 08:50 PM	-You know, me and KtM would be quite willing to take all those portfolios off of Mystra's hands. Yup. We'd also have to have a discussion with Lathander, Azuth, Oghma, and Milil about those other portfolio's of Mystryl's..... I have already entered into negotiations upon Your behalf about said contingency with the Parties involved. :plotting: Yes....yes...she showed up looking like this http://ewancient.lysator.liu.se/pic/art/c/s/cs1k2cs1m/dwarf.jpg "WARNING: May cause temporary blindness, insanity, and eventual death of any sexuality you may have or will have in the next decade. The poster (that'd be me) is not responsible for any harm caused by viewing the content." As per my contract no Dwelven Goddesses will be included in the proceedings.... She has a real nice personality though....and always brings shooters!!! Yeah, actually I DO:P But I really can't:) I'll PM you the link tho' if you really want me to:plotting: :evillaugh -Doitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoit doitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoitdoit... Yes.....<cough>....Send It....<cough>. Ouch:yuck:
ShadezofDis 03-21-07, 08:09 AM	:shocked: What sorta crack pot orginization did I get myself involved in?
Karsus the Mad 03-21-07, 08:26 AM	:shocked: What sorta crack pot orginization did I get myself involved in? The sort of organization made up by...crack pots:crazy: who portray an image of being crazy, yet harmless, in order to perform certain acts of the arcane, that may or may not be deemed as atrocious by the powers of Toril, without drawing undue attention to the details or reasoning behind said acts. Occasionally the Karsi require...more physical methods of dealing with situations. Thus the creation of the Hands of Karsus. At least that's the reasoning for the formation...I've always felt the true reasoning was the burrito discounts...hmmmmm....yum.
BrennonGoldeye 03-21-07, 09:22 AM	I've always felt the true reasoning was the burrito discounts...hmmmmm....yum. Ah, see. I knew there was a reason for that burrito in LK's fridge. It never occured to me that it was a proxy for Chimichangas, Lord of Tortillas. Must send an apology note to His Zestiness.:)
Lord Karsus 03-21-07, 09:35 AM	I've always felt the true reasoning was the burrito discounts...hmmmmm....yum. -Aw, shucks, now you've gone and told them. You get a 5% discount with parties of 5 and more over at the "Burrito Bar". :cool: