Straight Wizard or Sorcerer vs. an Ultimate Magus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Straight Wizard or Sorcerer vs. an Ultimate Magus [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
balfor
06-15-07, 02:13 PM I am soliciting opinions supported by facts regarding which is a more powerful build, a straight sorcerer / wizard or an ultimate magus. :eek:
Alediran
06-15-07, 03:11 PM Ultimate Magus by far, if you know a little secret of building it, you can have acces as a Wizard to 9th lvl magic and like 5th or 6th lvl sorcerer magic by lvl 20th
balfor
06-15-07, 03:22 PM what is the secret?
Red_Wizard
06-15-07, 05:46 PM Simple, go 7 wiz/ 3 sorc/ 10 Ultimate Magus, and tada, you have the caster levels of 17th (getting 9th level spells) and 13th (getting 6th level spells)

No secret, just smart building.

P.S. Sorc is the stronger class by far, Simply because you can enter any PrC with it, and never lose a damn thing for doing so. Add that to the foolishness of making nearly every PrC special ability Charisma based for some stupid reason, and tada again, you have your self a broken class.
Karsus the Mad
06-15-07, 05:55 PM That build gets you spells per day of a 14th level wizard, 13th level sorcerer.
Red_Wizard
06-15-07, 08:01 PM Um how do you figure?

You progress in both casting classes equally, and there are 10 levels to take. If you go to 7th level wizard, and then take 3 levels of sorc, you are 10th level total, plus 10 levels of Ultimate magus and you are 20th level.

This becomes 17th level wiz/13th level sorc and thus 9th level spells, and 6th level spells respectivly.
Duagloth
06-15-07, 08:12 PM Progress isnt equally.

+7 lvls for both
+3 just for the lower of both.

Wiz4/Sorc1/UM10 = Spells like a Wizard 11/Sorc 11 = Classlevel 15

With lvl 20:

Wiz9/Sorc1/UM10 = Spells like a Wizard 16/Sorc 11 (Casterlvl 20/15 but thats another storie:))
Red_Wizard
06-15-07, 08:15 PM Indeed, I just checked my PDF and saw that the class progression is uneven. First glance decieved me, so I'll admit I was wrong in my prior statement. :)
Duagloth
06-15-07, 08:18 PM So one has the choice:

UM and tons of spells per day, but not the highest lvl possible.

Or straight Wiz/Sorc and 9 lvl spells.
Karsus the Mad
06-15-07, 08:23 PM Would a phaerimm wizard qualify? It casts spells as a sorcerer equal to it's HD....
Duagloth
06-15-07, 08:27 PM Well the REquirements juste say "Able to spontaneously cast 1st lvl spells"

so a Pharimm Wiz 3 should be able to become a UM (with the right skills)

But another question:

So he is a HD X Phaerimm Wiz 3 and gains SPellcasterlvl from UM.

He gains +1 in his Wiz class, but he has no Sorc class to gain the other +1. His HD are no Classlvl hmm.

So would be just gain the Wiz lvl?

And when he would gain +1 in the lower class, which would that be, if he just is a Wiz?
Karsus the Mad
06-15-07, 08:34 PM Well the REquirements juste say "Able to spontaneously cast 1st lvl spells"

so a Pharimm Wiz 3 should be able to become a UM (with the right skills)
:evillaugh
Phaerimm Wizard 10/ UM 10 = 9th level spells in both and CL wiz 21st/ sor 31st?
interesting. Adding in the racial HD means boogle higher Sor CL? well now...
Duagloth
06-15-07, 08:47 PM If it works that way, terrible enemy.

But I'm not sure if you can gain Casterlvl progress from a Prestigeclass if you dont have a class to gain the progress in.

(And the ability of the Phaerimm is no class.)

But i could be wrong:)
Karsus the Mad
06-16-07, 06:57 AM If it works that way, terrible enemy.

But I'm not sure if you can gain Casterlvl progress from a Prestigeclass if you dont have a class to gain the progress in.

(And the ability of the Phaerimm is no class.)

But i could be wrong:)
As a DM I'd rule it that way. Otherwise just way too extreme. Maybe for a villian:D
As to the phaerimm tho', their spellcasting abilities are exactly as a sorcerer, to the point that actual sorcerer levels stack with their natural sorcerer levels (a 10HD phaerimm with 10 levels of sorcerer has CL and spells as a 20th level sorcerer). The only difference is that a phaerimm can't summon a familiar unless they have at least 1 sorcerer level (or wizard). Hmmm...the Caster level progress for a phaerimm's innate sorcerer spells would increase with the HD gained from the class, at the least. Even keeping it that way (without giving racial HD) would still equate to 9th level spells in both....:D Or simply have a phaerimm wizard 9/ sorcerer 1:D:D:D
Lord Karsus
06-17-07, 07:15 PM -In a duel, the straight Wizards and Sorcerers would lose. Gay Wizards and Sorcerers aren't distracted by a little cleavage and the flash of a leg.
Purple Dragon Knight
06-17-07, 07:44 PM Several of my players have multiclassed away from Wizard or Cleric (one is Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10, with Practiced Spellcaster taken twice; the other is Wizard 5 / Ninja 2 / Spellwarp Sniper 5 / Abjurant Champion 3 / Unseen Seer 1).

I must say that they get very powerful capabilities/abilities by doing so, but a "straight" wizard or cleric is almost always sorely missed (either when situation calls for high caster level checks, good old spell might (i.e. high spell level, i.e. strong spells), or when a high HD undead shows its face. And these players aren't dumb: they try to bridge the gap with spell penetration, practiced spellcaster, beads of karma, incense of meditation, etc. A good old 16th level cleric or 16th level wizard would, very often, beat the crap out of them. Sure, the Theurge-like classes get lots of spells, but unless you're a spellweaver, there's just no use to having all these low-level crap spells when the **** hits the fan! :D

Edit: yeah! to all DMs out there: pit your PCs against a spellweaver ultimate magus! muhhahahahahah!
Neyvn
06-19-07, 12:42 AM You could always get practiced spellcaster and take Sorcerer 1, Wizard 4, UM 10, then 5 more Wizard levels. At level 5 you have Sorcerer caster level 5, Wizard 4. Level 1 in UM goes to wizard= caster lvl. 5. UM 2 & 3 go to both now have CL of both at 7 UM 4 goes to Wizard, Caster Lvl. 8. UM 5 & 6 got to both, CL Sor. 9 Wiz 10. UM 7 goes to Sor. CL now is 10 for both. UN 8, 9, & 10 got to both. Both are now at 13. 5 more lvls of wiz now have Wiz full progression of 18 & sor full progression of 9th with CL of 13.
Neyvn
06-19-07, 12:43 AM Also could do the Master spellthief trick to get CL of 20 in both.
Alediran
06-19-07, 08:23 AM You could always get practiced spellcaster and take Sorcerer 1, Wizard 4, UM 10, then 5 more Wizard levels. At level 5 you have Sorcerer caster level 5, Wizard 4. Level 1 in UM goes to wizard= caster lvl. 5. UM 2 & 3 go to both now have CL of both at 7 UM 4 goes to Wizard, Caster Lvl. 8. UM 5 & 6 got to both, CL Sor. 9 Wiz 10. UM 7 goes to Sor. CL now is 10 for both. UN 8, 9, & 10 got to both. Both are now at 13. 5 more lvls of wiz now have Wiz full progression of 18 & sor full progression of 9th with CL of 13.

That's the trick I was talking about.
danielmayer
06-19-07, 10:50 AM Gay Wizards and Sorcerers aren't distracted by a little cleavage and the flash of a leg.
Concentrating on scores aside from CH are your PCs, hmm? Ever seen a straight wizard (!) with CH 18? ;) :P
But I must confess.... lost some duels to female whatever-wizard/sorceror-nymphs/nixies/subucci.... was worth it, anyway.... :D
Steelwind
06-21-07, 02:52 AM Shouldnt the Simbul have UM levels, I dont know something like Sor10/Wiz10/UM10/ArM2, maybe its just me but she just screams UM, possibly Incantatrix too.

Back to topic though, do the Wiz4/Sor1 with practiced spellcaster trick, its the best UM bang for your buck.
Wizardman
06-21-07, 08:04 AM Shouldnt the Simbul have UM levels, I dont know something like Sor10/Wiz10/UM10/ArM2, maybe its just me but she just screams UM, possibly Incantatrix too.

If she were built nowadays, that may well her stats. I would be tempted to do a Sor5/Wiz5/UM20/Arc2. The only problem with Incantatrix is the school specialization it requires. The Simbul may be blast-happy, but she is conversant with all schools of magic.

Anyway, my build has her as a 23rd level caster for both classes (assuming that she split her levels evenly in the UM, which I do for simplicity's sake), and bumps her up to a 31st CL with the arcane spell power increases (which should go to +8 if the class is taken epic).

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
balfor 06-15-07, 02:13 PM	I am soliciting opinions supported by facts regarding which is a more powerful build, a straight sorcerer / wizard or an ultimate magus. :eek:
Alediran 06-15-07, 03:11 PM	Ultimate Magus by far, if you know a little secret of building it, you can have acces as a Wizard to 9th lvl magic and like 5th or 6th lvl sorcerer magic by lvl 20th
balfor 06-15-07, 03:22 PM	what is the secret?
Red_Wizard 06-15-07, 05:46 PM	Simple, go 7 wiz/ 3 sorc/ 10 Ultimate Magus, and tada, you have the caster levels of 17th (getting 9th level spells) and 13th (getting 6th level spells) No secret, just smart building. P.S. Sorc is the stronger class by far, Simply because you can enter any PrC with it, and never lose a damn thing for doing so. Add that to the foolishness of making nearly every PrC special ability Charisma based for some stupid reason, and tada again, you have your self a broken class.
Karsus the Mad 06-15-07, 05:55 PM	That build gets you spells per day of a 14th level wizard, 13th level sorcerer.
Red_Wizard 06-15-07, 08:01 PM	Um how do you figure? You progress in both casting classes equally, and there are 10 levels to take. If you go to 7th level wizard, and then take 3 levels of sorc, you are 10th level total, plus 10 levels of Ultimate magus and you are 20th level. This becomes 17th level wiz/13th level sorc and thus 9th level spells, and 6th level spells respectivly.
Duagloth 06-15-07, 08:12 PM	Progress isnt equally. +7 lvls for both +3 just for the lower of both. Wiz4/Sorc1/UM10 = Spells like a Wizard 11/Sorc 11 = Classlevel 15 With lvl 20: Wiz9/Sorc1/UM10 = Spells like a Wizard 16/Sorc 11 (Casterlvl 20/15 but thats another storie:))
Red_Wizard 06-15-07, 08:15 PM	Indeed, I just checked my PDF and saw that the class progression is uneven. First glance decieved me, so I'll admit I was wrong in my prior statement. :)
Duagloth 06-15-07, 08:18 PM	So one has the choice: UM and tons of spells per day, but not the highest lvl possible. Or straight Wiz/Sorc and 9 lvl spells.
Karsus the Mad 06-15-07, 08:23 PM	Would a phaerimm wizard qualify? It casts spells as a sorcerer equal to it's HD....
Duagloth 06-15-07, 08:27 PM	Well the REquirements juste say "Able to spontaneously cast 1st lvl spells" so a Pharimm Wiz 3 should be able to become a UM (with the right skills) But another question: So he is a HD X Phaerimm Wiz 3 and gains SPellcasterlvl from UM. He gains +1 in his Wiz class, but he has no Sorc class to gain the other +1. His HD are no Classlvl hmm. So would be just gain the Wiz lvl? And when he would gain +1 in the lower class, which would that be, if he just is a Wiz?
Karsus the Mad 06-15-07, 08:34 PM	Well the REquirements juste say "Able to spontaneously cast 1st lvl spells" so a Pharimm Wiz 3 should be able to become a UM (with the right skills) :evillaugh Phaerimm Wizard 10/ UM 10 = 9th level spells in both and CL wiz 21st/ sor 31st? interesting. Adding in the racial HD means boogle higher Sor CL? well now...
Duagloth 06-15-07, 08:47 PM	If it works that way, terrible enemy. But I'm not sure if you can gain Casterlvl progress from a Prestigeclass if you dont have a class to gain the progress in. (And the ability of the Phaerimm is no class.) But i could be wrong:)
Karsus the Mad 06-16-07, 06:57 AM	If it works that way, terrible enemy. But I'm not sure if you can gain Casterlvl progress from a Prestigeclass if you dont have a class to gain the progress in. (And the ability of the Phaerimm is no class.) But i could be wrong:) As a DM I'd rule it that way. Otherwise just way too extreme. Maybe for a villian:D As to the phaerimm tho', their spellcasting abilities are exactly as a sorcerer, to the point that actual sorcerer levels stack with their natural sorcerer levels (a 10HD phaerimm with 10 levels of sorcerer has CL and spells as a 20th level sorcerer). The only difference is that a phaerimm can't summon a familiar unless they have at least 1 sorcerer level (or wizard). Hmmm...the Caster level progress for a phaerimm's innate sorcerer spells would increase with the HD gained from the class, at the least. Even keeping it that way (without giving racial HD) would still equate to 9th level spells in both....:D Or simply have a phaerimm wizard 9/ sorcerer 1:D:D:D
Lord Karsus 06-17-07, 07:15 PM	-In a duel, the straight Wizards and Sorcerers would lose. Gay Wizards and Sorcerers aren't distracted by a little cleavage and the flash of a leg.
Purple Dragon Knight 06-17-07, 07:44 PM	Several of my players have multiclassed away from Wizard or Cleric (one is Cleric 3 / Wizard 3 / Mystic Theurge 10, with Practiced Spellcaster taken twice; the other is Wizard 5 / Ninja 2 / Spellwarp Sniper 5 / Abjurant Champion 3 / Unseen Seer 1). I must say that they get very powerful capabilities/abilities by doing so, but a "straight" wizard or cleric is almost always sorely missed (either when situation calls for high caster level checks, good old spell might (i.e. high spell level, i.e. strong spells), or when a high HD undead shows its face. And these players aren't dumb: they try to bridge the gap with spell penetration, practiced spellcaster, beads of karma, incense of meditation, etc. A good old 16th level cleric or 16th level wizard would, very often, beat the crap out of them. Sure, the Theurge-like classes get lots of spells, but unless you're a spellweaver, there's just no use to having all these low-level crap spells when the **** hits the fan! :D Edit: yeah! to all DMs out there: pit your PCs against a spellweaver ultimate magus! muhhahahahahah!
Neyvn 06-19-07, 12:42 AM	You could always get practiced spellcaster and take Sorcerer 1, Wizard 4, UM 10, then 5 more Wizard levels. At level 5 you have Sorcerer caster level 5, Wizard 4. Level 1 in UM goes to wizard= caster lvl. 5. UM 2 & 3 go to both now have CL of both at 7 UM 4 goes to Wizard, Caster Lvl. 8. UM 5 & 6 got to both, CL Sor. 9 Wiz 10. UM 7 goes to Sor. CL now is 10 for both. UN 8, 9, & 10 got to both. Both are now at 13. 5 more lvls of wiz now have Wiz full progression of 18 & sor full progression of 9th with CL of 13.
Neyvn 06-19-07, 12:43 AM	Also could do the Master spellthief trick to get CL of 20 in both.
Alediran 06-19-07, 08:23 AM	You could always get practiced spellcaster and take Sorcerer 1, Wizard 4, UM 10, then 5 more Wizard levels. At level 5 you have Sorcerer caster level 5, Wizard 4. Level 1 in UM goes to wizard= caster lvl. 5. UM 2 & 3 go to both now have CL of both at 7 UM 4 goes to Wizard, Caster Lvl. 8. UM 5 & 6 got to both, CL Sor. 9 Wiz 10. UM 7 goes to Sor. CL now is 10 for both. UN 8, 9, & 10 got to both. Both are now at 13. 5 more lvls of wiz now have Wiz full progression of 18 & sor full progression of 9th with CL of 13. That's the trick I was talking about.
danielmayer 06-19-07, 10:50 AM	Gay Wizards and Sorcerers aren't distracted by a little cleavage and the flash of a leg. Concentrating on scores aside from CH are your PCs, hmm? Ever seen a straight wizard (!) with CH 18? ;) :P But I must confess.... lost some duels to female whatever-wizard/sorceror-nymphs/nixies/subucci.... was worth it, anyway.... :D
Steelwind 06-21-07, 02:52 AM	Shouldnt the Simbul have UM levels, I dont know something like Sor10/Wiz10/UM10/ArM2, maybe its just me but she just screams UM, possibly Incantatrix too. Back to topic though, do the Wiz4/Sor1 with practiced spellcaster trick, its the best UM bang for your buck.
Wizardman 06-21-07, 08:04 AM	Shouldnt the Simbul have UM levels, I dont know something like Sor10/Wiz10/UM10/ArM2, maybe its just me but she just screams UM, possibly Incantatrix too. If she were built nowadays, that may well her stats. I would be tempted to do a Sor5/Wiz5/UM20/Arc2. The only problem with Incantatrix is the school specialization it requires. The Simbul may be blast-happy, but she is conversant with all schools of magic. Anyway, my build has her as a 23rd level caster for both classes (assuming that she split her levels evenly in the UM, which I do for simplicity's sake), and bumps her up to a 31st CL with the arcane spell power increases (which should go to +8 if the class is taken epic).