Post/Author/DateTime	Post
GabeyTheSage 04-21-07, 12:22 AM	Ok i cant find out anything about the rite. All the internet gives me is tranlasion. But what is in the book. What are the requirments and what does it do to the char. Plz tell me anything and all. Can you porform the rite in game?
Lord Karsus 04-21-07, 08:33 PM	-Well, what do you want to know about it? In a nut shell, the High Magic spell is a ritual of solitude, and allows the caster to trade a portion of his/her own spirit for a portion of the spirit of an outsider (Demons and Eladrin are the only two examples we have). Thus, the caster becomes a Half-Demon (Offspring become Fey'ri) or a Half-Celestial (Offpsring become Surin'Tel'Quessir) Elf. -No, you cannot have your characters cast the spell, for a few reasons. First, it is an Elven High Magic spell. Second, it was a lost Elven High Magic spell, until recently. Third, there have been no attempts to give the spell a write-up.
Delendir 04-22-07, 03:14 AM	No, you cannot have your characters cast the spell, for a few reasons. First, it is an Elven High Magic spell. Second, it was a lost Elven High Magic spell, until recently. Third, there have been no attempts to give the spell a write-up. Doesn't mean one can't write up a version of it on your own. Turning into a half-celestial/half-fiend isn't a problem. That's easy to accomplish with the existing epic rules. The problem comes with the reason why one would cast it -- to be able to cast high magic without a high mage circle. But still, it's not impossible to write up.
Lord Karsus 04-22-07, 06:29 PM	Doesn't mean one can't write up a version of it on your own. Turning into a half-celestial/half-fiend isn't a problem. That's easy to accomplish with the existing epic rules. The problem comes with the reason why one would cast it -- to be able to cast high magic without a high mage circle. But still, it's not impossible to write up. -Like I said, the spell is an Elven High Magic spell, so unless the character in question is an Elven High Mage, then he/she does not have access to the spell, and thus, cannot cast it. To further muddy the waters, the ritual was thought lost, and was recently rediscovered (by Aravein Teshurr). However, the existing High Magi were already dubious at the changes the spell performed on said Sun Elf, so how likely is it that they allow other Elven High Magi to make the transformation as well? Very unlikely. I am a stickler that there are some things PC cannot do, no matter what. This, in my judgement, is one of those situations.
PharaunMizzrym 04-23-07, 12:46 AM	Saying it is an elven high magic spell does not mean that a different version could not be developed by a wizard of a different race to accomplish the same effect. It only means that the preexisting copy of the spell was elven high magic and it is therefore neccessary to start from scratch when developing the spell. Start by adding sugar, spice, and everything nice......oops, I created a cartoon. My bad. Have to start work on the spell all over again. I wasn't epic level when I died in the demonweb pits. Karsus, you have some knowledge of epic spells (sadly for Mystryl), a little help?
Delendir 04-23-07, 02:10 AM	-Like I said, the spell is an Elven High Magic spell, so unless the character in question is an Elven High Mage, then he/she does not have access to the spell, and thus, cannot cast it. Well, becoming an elven high mage is only a matter of a career choice. If a player wants to become an elven high mage, as a DM, I don't see any reason to stand in the way. To further muddy the waters, the ritual was thought lost, and was recently rediscovered (by Aravein Teshurr). However, the existing High Magi were already dubious at the changes the spell performed on said Sun Elf, so how likely is it that they allow other Elven High Magi to make the transformation as well? And since when has "lost" magic always stayed "lost"? A huge amount of wizards in Faerūn devote their lives to searching of ancient ruins of Netheril, Imaskar, Narfell, and Raumathar (to just name a few). Not to mention that, like mentioned by PharaunMizzrym, magic can be re-researched. Also, if you remember, Aravein did not need the help of other high mages to perform the ritual. Albeit, such behavior is very unbecoming of a high mage. But it can abe explained by the fact that Aravein was not a high mage at that time and only become knowledgeable of elven high magic through his quest, something that shouldn't really happen with a spell, and that is what the high mages were concerned about; Aravein was impatient and directly disregarded their advice. Very unlikely. I am a stickler that there are some things PC cannot do, no matter what. This, in my judgement, is one of those situations. We can agree to disagree on this point :)
Lord Karsus 04-23-07, 09:03 AM	Well, becoming an elven high mage is only a matter of a career choice. If a player wants to become an elven high mage, as a DM, I don't see any reason to stand in the way. -That, I agree with. And since when has "lost" magic always stayed "lost"? A huge amount of wizards in Faerūn devote their lives to searching of ancient ruins of Netheril, Imaskar, Narfell, and Raumathar (to just name a few). -Most Elven High Magic spells that have been "lost" are still "lost" today. As an example, the TN was "lost" since the fall of Yuireshanyaar, in appx. -5000 DR, making it "lost" for about six thousand years. So, in six thousand years, not a single soul was able to rediscover that spell. Using this example as your basis, how likely is it that other "lost" spells are suddenly discovered? There are a few things to keep in mind here. Firstly, these Elven High Magic spells are a lot older than Netherese, Imaskari, Raumathari and other spells. The second it, Elven culture never fell, like these other civilizations did. The ancient Elves, for whatever the reason, did their best to make sure said "lost" became "lost", more often than not. Also, if you remember, Aravein did not need the help of other high mages to perform the ritual. -The TN was a Ritual of Solitude. It is very overlooked, by everyone, that Rituals of Solitude are only cast by one caster. No circle needed! Albeit, such behavior is very unbecoming of a high mage. But it can abe explained by the fact that Aravein was not a high mage at that time and only become knowledgeable of elven high magic through his quest, something that shouldn't really happen with a spell, and that is what the high mages were concerned about; Aravein was impatient and directly disregarded their advice. -If you read the chapter one of Final Gate, the High Magi are disturbed at what Araevin had become, though there is no doubt that they were also angered at his lack of patience, a trait quite unbecoming in an Elf, especially a Sun Elf. High Mage Anfalen mentions that many believe that the Nightstar's corruptive influence did it (the transformation) to him, and High Mage Kileontheal goes as far as to ask Araevin what he did to himself.
Delendir 04-23-07, 11:51 AM	Most Elven High Magic spells that have been "lost" are still "lost" today. As an example, the TN was "lost" since the fall of Yuireshanyaar, in appx. -5000 DR, making it "lost" for about six thousand years. So, in six thousand years, not a single soul was able to rediscover that spell. Using this example as your basis, how likely is it that other "lost" spells are suddenly discovered? Extremely unlikely. Yet, against all odds, there is usually one lucky victor in the lottery every week ;) That said, I do agree with you. It odds of such magics being found again are extremely unlikely and shouldn't happen every other day. Firstly, these Elven High Magic spells are a lot older than Netherese, Imaskari, Raumathari and other spells. The second it, Elven culture never fell, like these other civilizations did. The ancient Elves, for whatever the reason, did their best to make sure said "lost" became "lost", more often than not. True of course, which is a good thing on itself since it would be a very bad thing if the secrets of high magic would start to pop up around Faerūn. But still, with all that said, Aravein's case showed that even the "very lost" can be re-found again, albeit with great care and responsibility from both the player and especially from the DM. The TN was a Ritual of Solitude. It is very overlooked, by everyone, that Rituals of Solitude are only cast by one caster. No circle needed! Yes, I know. That was my point, as a response to what you said, "how likely is it that they allow other Elven High Magi to make the transformation as well?". Since the TN is/was a ritual of solitude other high mages could well also perform it without the consent of other high mages. Although, again we come to the fact that it is not in the nature of high mages to do so. I think the example Aravein made should be viewed as a very isolated incident. Personally I'd rather discourage such behavior. If you read the chapter one of Final Gate, the High Magi are disturbed at what Araevin had become, though there is no doubt that they were also angered at his lack of patience, a trait quite unbecoming in an Elf, especially a Sun Elf. I remember it. Though, to me it always seemed that they were more concerned about Aravein's pattern of behavior on itself. Or at least, that it was the main focus of their concern and the act of performing the ritual was secondary. I could be wrong, but such was my impression. In the end, I still stand by my point that it's not unconceivable to think that the ritual in question could resurface, whatever the odds.
Lord Karsus 04-23-07, 12:31 PM	Extremely unlikely. Yet, against all odds, there is usually one lucky victor in the lottery every week ;) That said, I do agree with you. It odds of such magics being found again are extremely unlikely and shouldn't happen every other day. -Not every week. That's how lottery pools, like Mega Millions, get so high! :P True of course, which is a good thing on itself since it would be a very bad thing if the secrets of high magic would start to pop up around Faerūn. But still, with all that said, Aravein's case showed that even the "very lost" can be re-found again, albeit with great care and responsibility from both the player and especially from the DM. -Pencil me into the group that believes that there are few DMs who have enough..."maturity", for a lack of better words, to accurately and responsibly nurture lost Elven magical lore back into a campaign. Yes, I know. That was my point, as a response to what you said, "how likely is it that they allow other Elven High Magi to make the transformation as well?". Since the TN is/was a ritual of solitude other high mages could well also perform it without the consent of other high mages. Although, again we come to the fact that it is not in the nature of high mages to do so. I think the example Aravein made should be viewed as a very isolated incident. Personally I'd rather discourage such behavior. -As would I. Anyway, I misunderstood what you wrote, and I thought that you were stating that Araevin went against the "status quo" of Elven High Magic by casting a Ritual of Solitude. For anyone who doesn't know, he went against the wishes of the other High Magi by casting the spell in the first place, but Elven High Magi cast Elven High Magic (Epic Magic) Rituals of Solitude more commonly than we give them credit for. I remember it. Though, to me it always seemed that they were more concerned about Aravein's pattern of behavior on itself. Or at least, that it was the main focus of their concern and the act of performing the ritual was secondary. I could be wrong, but such was my impression. -I'm not the author, so I can't say anything concrete, but I got the impression that they were concerned about what he did and what he had become. You might even say that they were afraid at what he had become.
boards 04-23-07, 11:51 PM	I found it kinda weird that they would be so concerned that he could cast high magic by himself. The queen is able to cast any high magic spells and the coronals of Cormanthor were capable of casting upto rituals of complement, so it is not like no one has ever had this capability. Now admitably the Ruler Blade had inbuilt safeguards against an evil weilder, but Amlauril could apparently cast the spells from a fairly young age with no assistance (ie survivng the spell to put a dragon and rider into stasis when the other high mages died). There did not seem to be any concerns with that. Whatever Arevin has become I dont think that he cast spells that require a very large number of helpers by himself, which should mean that many of the greatest spells are out of his reach.
GothicDan 04-24-07, 03:59 AM	Amlaruil was a naturally talented mage from the start, and became a powerful high mage at an early age (in part due to political machinations), but she was not able to cast any High Magic Ritual by herself until she was made the Chosen of the Seldarine. And note that there was a great deal of upheaval in the ranks of Evermeet's nobility before Amlaruil became as well-accepted and loved as she is now. The Coronals of Cormanthyr could not cast Elven High Magic by themselves. To utilize the magic in the Sel'Kiira of the Ruler's Blade, they had to first qualify for the normal requirements of being a High Mage as stated in the Cormanthyr supplement; that's why Eltargrim retired for a few centuries to study magic (where he picked up levels in Wizard). And even then, they did not gain special abilities to perform High Magic alone. The Sel'Kiira merely provided them with the lore and rituals necessary to become a High Mage. Only Queen Amlaruil has been able to cast Elven High Magic rituals alone, and this was a direct blessing of the Seldarine, not something she actively sought after.
boards 04-24-07, 06:41 AM	"Thanks to the two selu'kiira bonded to the ends of the quillons (black gems)and a single one on the tang button of the pommel (a red gem), the wielder becomes Coronal and holds the power and knowledge of three High Mages (in addition to any abilities of his own). This allows him to conduct Rituals of solitude or Complement entirely on his own, and all known rituals are at the Coronal's disposal through the knowledge of the selu'kiira." This is from the Cormanthor, Empire of the Elves sourcebook. I'll grant Amlaruils case.
Delendir 04-24-07, 06:56 AM	"Thanks to the two selu'kiira bonded to the ends of the quillons (black gems)and a single one on the tang button of the pommel (a red gem), the wielder becomes Coronal and holds the power and knowledge of three High Mages (in addition to any abilities of his own). This allows him to conduct Rituals of solitude or Complement entirely on his own, and all known rituals are at the Coronal's disposal through the knowledge of the selu'kiira." This is from the Cormanthor, Empire of the Elves sourcebook. I'll grant Amlaruils case. True enough, but you still have to remember that no matter their political positions and powers, neither Amlaruil or Eltargrim have/had the freedom to do whatever they wish or how they wished. Also both have and had a large contingency of advisors and teachers. So even if both had the power to perform other than rituals of solitude on their own, they would be surrounded by those whom with they consult, discuss, and attempt to come into consensus with. That was not the case with Aravein. In fact, since book one in the Last Mythal series, it becomes clear that Aravein lacks some of the most basic qualities of becoming a high mage. I for one couldn't even imagine how the high mages could consider teaching him as the way he was.
GothicDan 04-24-07, 08:26 AM	"Thanks to the two selu'kiira bonded to the ends of the quillons (black gems)and a single one on the tang button of the pommel (a red gem), the wielder becomes Coronal and holds the power and knowledge of three High Mages (in addition to any abilities of his own). This allows him to conduct Rituals of solitude or Complement entirely on his own, and all known rituals are at the Coronal's disposal through the knowledge of the selu'kiira." This is from the Cormanthor, Empire of the Elves sourcebook. I'll grant Amlaruils case. That's because each Selu'Kiira effectively acts as another 'phantom high mage' for purposes of casting the Rituals, much like the Highfire Crown allows one to summon up 12 (or is it 13?) phantom high magi of silver and amber fire, allowing one to cast Rituals of Myriad on one's own. It's not something innate to Eltargrim, but rather a function of his blade itself - and even then, to utilize Selu'Kiira, as I said, you still have to be trained and take the time necessary to actually fulfill the requirements of becoming an Elven High Mage the 'normal way,' which Araevin did not. Basically, the Highfire Crown is described as the Elves' "Holy Grail," and the Ruler's Blade would be similar to their Excalibur. What do you think Merlin would have done if some random young whippersnapper had been running around wielding the power of Excalibur all on his own, with little training, experience, and no restrictions?
boards 04-24-07, 08:30 AM	Oh, I dont disagree with the fact that the High Mages wouldnt want to teach Arvein high magic, just not that they would be horrified that he could cast such magic on his own. If they kept him with them, would he be anymore capable of casting such magic without them, than Eltargrim or Amlaruil are. Would their councilors be able (by their laws) of stopping them from performing a ritual. If Aravein had been born half celestial (or whatever he became exactly) would they have been so against teaching him high magic, or was it simply the fact that he had willingly departed from his elfdom (is that a word)?
GothicDan 04-24-07, 08:49 AM	Normal half-celestials, and Aasimar, and the like, are absolutely no more able to wield Elven High Magic than any full-blooded Elf. And if Araevien had been born such, he wouldn't have been able to learn Elven High Magic at all (and the existing EHM would have known that) unless he was the direct descendent of a Celestial that had been created and/or charged by one of the Seldarine. I imagine they were horrified that he ignored their rulings and found a way to bypass them altogether, breaking the sacred code of High Magic tradition (which is what's kept such things out of the hands of humans and the Netherese for thousands of years), and giving away part of his Tel'Quessir soul in doing so. He basically spit in their faces. Elven High Magi will sacrifice their lives to protect the secrets of Elven High Magic, and only trickle out tidbits of it to apprentices over centuries of training, trying to ensure they will one day be stable enough to wield it. Araevien did all kinds of things wrong.
boards 04-24-07, 09:03 AM	Yeah Dan, thats pretty much how I'm reading it.
Delendir 04-24-07, 11:59 AM	Would their councilors be able (by their laws) of stopping them from performing a ritual. Most likely yes. After all, kings, queens, dictators, and coronals are all subject to restriction of conduct, practice, and what is acceptable. Just look what happened when Eltargrim opened the city to all races. There were several attempts at his life, open acts of treason. Now it doesn't have to be something as dramatic, especially since both Eltargrim and Amlaruil have always been very diplomatic about their affairs and wishes of the citizens in their respected kingdoms.
Khaelieth 04-24-07, 06:54 PM	Nar fiendbond, 7th level wiz/sor spell. Not high magic at all. Telmiirkara neshyrr is something more. If you can cast that kind of magic unaided, it's down to more than -just- being half-celestial. And Araevin was a downright silly fellow. He should've been obliterated by the Elven High Magi just for doing what he did. Teach him some respect! Set an example for the next worthy [sun] elf!
Lord Karsus 04-24-07, 11:36 PM	And Araevin was a downright silly fellow. -There was a lot of silliness going on in the entire trilogy. Definitley...
Khaelieth 04-25-07, 10:55 AM	-There was a lot of silliness going on in the entire trilogy. Definitley... Yep. They all but wiped out the fey'ri. *sniffles*
Lord Karsus 04-25-07, 11:01 AM	Yep. They all but wiped out the fey'ri. *sniffles* -That was probably the least amoun of silliness. There were always very few Fey'ri, and there will now be even fewer Fey'ri. I wouldn't count them completely down for the count, though. Sure, they might not never be in such a position of power again, but I don't think that the entire subrace will be wiped out. Sarya was too good of a strategist for something like that to happen.
Khaelieth 04-25-07, 02:18 PM	Sarya was apparently useless (unworthy of her sun elf blood, I say!). She couldn't whack an high magi that had just fought Malkizid. I was actually expecting her to win! Then I just went. WTF. Huh? WHAT?! *Throws book at random lesser being* But the Telmiirkara Neshyrr sounds more like an epic feat that needs 5 metamagic feats at least to reach, in addition to the spell!
Delendir 04-25-07, 09:15 PM	Sarya was apparently useless (unworthy of her sun elf blood, I say!). She couldn't whack an high magi that had just fought Malkizid. I was actually expecting her to win! Then I just went. WTF. Huh? WHAT?! *Throws book at random lesser being* Maybe Aravein was just that good :P Seriously, since I started started reading the series I knew Sarya had two possible fates waiting for her. Either she would be escape to fight another day, or she would be wacked. How did I know this? Because in the atypical western culture, the moto is "good guys win and bad guys lose". But the Telmiirkara Neshyrr sounds more like an epic feat that needs 5 metamagic feats at least to reach, in addition to the spell! I was thinking more in the lines of a PrC. I've already rewritten my own 3.5 elven high mage PrC. It wouldn't be too diffecult to make this class similar, but an alternative choice to it. It fits particularly, since in the beginning of the third book, Aravein describes it as "a tradition of wielding high magic that Evermeet has forgotten". Or something to that affect...
Khaelieth 04-26-07, 05:14 PM	I agree with you, but I don't think it's a PrC, I think it's more like Cormanthyrian Moon Magic + template
Lord Karsus 04-27-07, 12:30 AM	Seriously, since I started started reading the series I knew Sarya had two possible fates waiting for her. Either she would be escape to fight another day, or she would be wacked. How did I know this? Because in the atypical western culture, the moto is "good guys win and bad guys lose"... -Ah, but you forget one other theme in this atypical western culture: "No one ever dies. There is always some sort of cliche situation to allow them to return." :P
Delendir 04-27-07, 11:34 AM	I agree with you, but I don't think it's a PrC, I think it's more like Cormanthyrian Moon Magic + template I didn't get the "Cormanthyrian Moon Magic" reference and I couldn't find it in my books. What exactly is it? -Ah, but you forget one other theme in this atypical western culture: "No one ever dies. There is always some sort of cliche situation to allow them to return." :P Of course. What good are cool villains if you can't use them for all they are worth? :rolleyes:
Khaelieth 04-27-07, 06:09 PM	I didn't get the "Cormanthyrian Moon Magic" reference and I couldn't find it in my books. What exactly is it? LEoF, increases CL or something under moonlight. I think I'm wrong though. But making it a feat would be awesome (though, with some ridiculous requirements and some insane price attached to it, i.e. ***** falls off in the shower the next day).
Lord Karsus 04-27-07, 06:29 PM	-Page seven, at the bottom, more specifically.
Khaelieth 04-27-07, 06:46 PM	Telmiirkara Neshyr... What kind of template would it be? Bonus to int and cha(?), change to outsider, weird complexion...
Delendir 04-27-07, 06:54 PM	LEoF, increases CL or something under moonlight. I think I'm wrong though. But making it a feat would be awesome (though, with some ridiculous requirements and some insane price attached to it, i.e. ***** falls off in the shower the next day). Definitely a cool feat, although limited. I think you could do it both ways, as an alternative elven high mage PrC or a feat + template. Especially since a PrC can be used to achieve the same state as a template (e.g. Disciple of Ashardalon). It just takes more time and is perhaps a bit more difficult. The template would probably be closer to the novel, while the PrC would support better game balance.
Khaelieth 04-27-07, 08:35 PM	I don't see it as a PrC really. I don't see him becoming better at being what he is. He used a spell that enables him to wield high magic alone. I'd say you'd need to be an elf and need to research the epic spell in addition to needing x metamagic feats. The template would grant a bonus to int and charisma (and change the ECL) The feat would grant him a bonus to spellcraft checks to research epic spells, which stacks with epic skill focus (Spellcraft). Could perhaps also make it a prerequisite. The skill bonus reflects him being able to caster more powerful spells. Does anyone know the effects of circle magic? Can't quite remember it.
PharaunMizzrym 04-27-07, 09:48 PM	Considering the ECL increase of gaining the template, the high cost of developing an epic level spell would balance it out. You would have higher natural abilities, but have lost a lot of gold that could be spent on better equipment.
Khaelieth 04-28-07, 06:57 AM	Considering the ECL increase of gaining the template, the high cost of developing an epic level spell would balance it out. You would have higher natural abilities, but have lost a lot of gold that could be spent on better equipment. Nah, not really. Gold is gold - a template is a template and don't balance each other. And remember this is for PC's too, not just NPC's. He'll quickly be gaining xp unsuited for his CR.