Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zardnaar 05-28-07, 07:32 PM	I just got the Fiendsh Codex 2 and it explained the 9 hells to me. I knew a bit of it but it made me think about the 9 Hells in FR. Devils try and trick peopel into becoming LE so there souls go to hell. However in FR this doens't really work as if you're LE you either go to your gods domain or be judged as faithless. Would a LE faithless person be consigned to the hells? If not the only souls Baator would get would be devil worshippers and any souls they can convince on the Fugue plane to go to hell instead- over all not many.
Xavier_of_Cormyr 05-28-07, 07:38 PM	I just got the Fiendsh Codex 2 and it explained the 9 hells to me. I knew a bit of it but it made me think about the 9 Hells in FR. Devils try and trick peopel into becoming LE so there souls go to hell. However in FR this doens't really work as if you're LE you either go to your gods domain or be judged as faithless. Would a LE faithless person be consigned to the hells? If not the only souls Baator would get would be devil worshippers and any souls they can convince on the Fugue plane to go to hell instead- over all not many. What you say is true, but it also states that devils actively sek out mortal to bind them into "contracts" for their souls in exchange for power. They also broker deals with higher powers for souls, and even raid the planes looking for unclaimed souls- not to mention, the faithless...
Arbourean 05-28-07, 07:46 PM	The Codex states that devils have permission from Kelemvor to bargain with prospective souls while they are waiting in line on the Fugue Plain.
Zardnaar 05-29-07, 02:31 AM	The Codex states that devils have permission from Kelemvor to bargain with prospective souls while they are waiting in line on the Fugue Plain. Thats not alot of souls though and the FRCS says not many take them up on the offer. In normal D&D more or less every LE soul not dedicated to a god goes to hell.
ShadezofDis 05-29-07, 10:25 AM	There is also the ability for Devils to engage a mortal in a soul binding contract before they die.
ripvanwormer 05-29-07, 10:55 AM	Thats not alot of souls though and the FRCS says not many take them up on the offer. In normal D&D more or less every LE soul not dedicated to a god goes to hell. Any time a devil corrupts you into lawful evil, the Nine Hells gain the claim on your soul, regardless of what god you worship (even without a formal contract). They only need to bargain for those souls they had nothing to do with in life. But you're right that the amount of souls available to the baatezu in the Forgotten Realms/Great Tree cosmology is comparatively much smaller than what they get in "normal D&D," and I think that's a problem. My suggestion is to assume Toril and "normal D&D" exist in the same multiverse, so Baator gets souls from a lot of different worlds.
Snarkbone 05-29-07, 03:04 PM	Didn't one of the older sources on fiends say that they also raid the wall of the faithless to grab some "bricks"? I remember reading it in some source book, but can't remember which (not FR specific).
Zevox 05-29-07, 03:19 PM	Didn't one of the older sources on fiends say that they also raid the wall of the faithless to grab some "bricks"? I remember reading it in some source book, but can't remember which (not FR specific). Thats the Demons, not the Devils (in fact, part of their agreement with Kelemvor includes helping his forces repulse Demonic attacks like that). You can find that in the FRCS. Zevox
MarkusTay63 05-29-07, 04:10 PM	So Kel has got Devils 'working for him'? Thats rich! :rofl: I guess it sort of makes sense though, in a weird way. Devils ARE lawful, and probably make an excellent 'police force'.
Drew1369r 05-30-07, 01:09 AM	So Kel has got Devils 'working for him'? Thats rich! :rofl: I guess it sort of makes sense though, in a weird way. Devils ARE lawful, and probably make an excellent 'police force'. Yes he does... they can bargin you for your soul... they cannot trick you or steal you... They don't have a binding contract to actually be apart of Kelemvors/Jerguls army to help in defense from Tanari raids... they just do because they hate them. Tanari steal,. Baatazu bargin :) I love lawful evil!
Slayergnome 05-30-07, 06:04 AM	If someone is LE due to the effects of a devil the devil (or at least it's superior) has a right to it's soul. I'm certain there are a load of souls out there divided by right between gods, and varous devils/demons. If someone claims their patron deity is Mystra but they actively kill people due to the manipulation of a devil and hardly pay Mystra anything more then lip service i'd say they are the devils. Gods gain power via worship in Forgotten Realms and Fiends gain power of the soul left behind. So I could actually see gods being less concerned with the soul after the death of the mortal. Of course gods having their own souls allows them trade goods and personal power. But a god not worship isn't much of a god. I think every soul is sorta a pie chart situation with the outside chance of being stolen by various factions anyhow.
Gray Richardson 05-30-07, 08:56 PM	Zardnaar, you are correct that souls do not normally go to the Nine Hells without some sort of diabolic intervention. This means that the devils of the FR cosmology have to work much harder for their souls than they might on the Great Wheel. But they have some options. 1) Devils can make pacts with living beings to get their souls when they die. 2) Devils can stick around the Fugue Plane and try to persuade recently deceased souls to come to the Nine Hells. Kelemvor allows this so long as the devils help defend the plane from demon raids. 3) Devils can buy souls from night hags who import souls from other planes. 4) Devils can buy souls from other evil gods 5) Devils can start cults on Toril and get people to worship them. The devils definitely must work harder to get recruits for their Blood War, but the demons of Faerun are similarly handicapped.
GothicDan 05-30-07, 09:16 PM	Since the Tanar'ri are similarly handicapped, this would theoretically equalize their numbers. It was always the Tanar'ri's overwhelming numbers (in bulk group at a time - well, one of the theories) that helped to keep the Blood War at a stalemate.
Snarkbone 05-30-07, 10:26 PM	Since the Tanar'ri are similarly handicapped, this would theoretically equalize their numbers. It was always the Tanar'ri's overwhelming numbers (in bulk group at a time - well, one of the theories) that helped to keep the Blood War at a stalemate. But those overwhelming numbers didn't come from mortal souls going to Abyss, unlike Hells, Abyss can spawn demons by itself and demons can reproduce, which devils can't. So that handicap is a difference that makes no difference.
Zardnaar 05-31-07, 02:14 AM	Thanx Snarkbone that was going to be my next point. The Abyss can churn out Demons from the planar material itself.
Gray Richardson 05-31-07, 03:40 AM	I don't know how true that is exactly. I would imagine there is some sort of "conservation of energy" law there putting limits on how many spontaneous demons the Abyss can just spawn. Presumably the Abyss is using soul-stuff that is left over from demons (or other beings) that were slain or destroyed within the Abyss. It may also be using soul-stuff that washes up upon its shores from the Styx. I doubt that the Abyss has a direct line to the source of unborn souls in the Positive Energy Plane. If not, then the souls to animate these spontaneously generated demon bodies must be coming from somewhere. My gut tells me it's residual soul-stuff that has not been absorbed into the plane, or at least was absorbed and then spit out again to animate the demonspawn. But my point is that, while the Abyss may be able to do that, I doubt that it is an unlimited resource.
Zardnaar 05-31-07, 04:03 AM	As written it is more or less infinate.
Snarkbone 05-31-07, 08:15 AM	Gray, think of it this way. We are told that there are infinitely many demons (all mighty FC:I again, although people might miss it due to the fact that it gives definition of infinity instead of saying "infinite"). That means that at some point there were infinitely many demons, regardless of how they got there. Now even if your weakened demon generation method (of energy conservation) does hold (and I don't see how it can, but lets say it does, and the amount of energy is very limiting) it will not limit anything, since those infinite # of souls keeps getting reborn. And demons can still procreate. So wost comes to worst, Graz'zt and Malcanthet will open breeding farms. And perhaps more importantly, mortal souls are not required, since obyriths ruled "eons before the rise of mortals", mortal souls simply were found a use for.
GothicDan 05-31-07, 12:27 PM	FC I refers to the core Abyss, where there is plenty of energy for Tanar'ri to have infinite numbers. There's no suggestion beyond fan speculation that the Core Abyss and the FR Abyss were ever connected or the same.
Snarkbone 05-31-07, 01:16 PM	FC I refers to the core Abyss, where there is plenty of energy for Tanar'ri to have infinite numbers. There's no suggestion beyond fan speculation that the Core Abyss and the FR Abyss were ever connected or the same. Ah close, but no. We have the case of multiple Lolth, where the WotC has set precedent that if there is a difference it is stated as a special case of general rule. So you don't get your argument, but in fact we get the opposite: if there is no source saying things are different, they are the same. And I am unaware of a source claiming fundamental difference.
GothicDan 05-31-07, 01:38 PM	... They are different cosmologies, Snark. The only part of the cosmologies that Faerun shares with Greyhawk is Sigil, and this is only because Rich explicitely stated it in his thread.
Snarkbone 05-31-07, 03:40 PM	Pretty much the only difference in cosmologies is in the conceptual representation of connections between layers, wheel vs tree. if you don't look at drawings it's all just a bunch planes connected by portals/astral plane. I am yet to find any tangible difference between them. More importantly since very few things were stated about devils/demons in FR specific books, about 90% of the stuff we know about them should be thrown away by your logic. And what are they supposed to reprint FC:I/II for every setting? Can't have that. It's in, unless FR source explicitly says it's not. The Core is the core to everything, unless particular setting deviates, in which case it has to say so. Eberron is an excellent example of it.
GothicDan 05-31-07, 05:13 PM	I'm sorry. They're different cosmologies, by canon, so you can't assume what works in one works in the other. There's nothing in canon that states what you're inferring, and it wouldn't make sense, given that the Tree doesn't function by power of belief, but rather will of the gods that inhabit it. NOTHING in the core cosmology applies to the Great Tree, because they're different cosmologies. You can't assume that Pelor exists in Faerun just because it doesn't say that he doesn't, for instance.
Snarkbone 05-31-07, 05:21 PM	I'm sorry. They're different cosmologies, by canon, so you can't assume what works in one works in the other. There's nothing in canon that states what you're inferring, and it wouldn't make sense, given that the Tree doesn't function by power of belief, but rather will of the gods that inhabit it. What does belief has to do with anything here? Where did it even come up from? NOTHING in the core cosmology applies to the Great Tree, because they're different cosmologies. You can't assume that Pelor exists in Faerun just because it doesn't say that he doesn't, for instance. It does say Pelor doesn't exist, because only gods given permission by Ao exist in FR, thus lists are exhaustive (and if there is ambiguity, then there is possibility). There is no mention of Pelor during ToT when Ao summoned them all for the whooping. You attribute too many things to the word "cosmology", and to little to setting specific game mechanics (like Ao). Cosmology doesn't describe all that much. Case in point there is a mention of Psionics in PGtFR, but no FR specific source defines them. By your argument, we can't use any of the psionic classes, CP and XPH go straight to the garbage bin, because while it says there are psionics there is nothing saying they are like the Core ones. There is a boatload of spells/feats that are Core and not in FR sources, can't use them either. Your way simply doesn't work.
GothicDan 05-31-07, 05:22 PM	Rich said to ignore the deity lists in F&P, for one thing. And belief has EVERYTHING to do with it, because the Outer Planes in Core exist through the belief of mortals on the Prime. Cosmology describes the planes, its inhabitants, and travel among the planes.
Snarkbone 05-31-07, 05:32 PM	Rich said to ignore the deity lists in F&P, for one thing. And belief has EVERYTHING to do with it, because the Outer Planes in Core exist through the belief of mortals on the Prime. Cosmology describes the planes, its inhabitants, and travel among the planes. err... none of which is in contradiction to anything I said. I'm afraid you lost me on this one.
GothicDan 05-31-07, 05:41 PM	Obviously we're going to have to drop the discussion and agree to disagree, then. Not the first time or anything.
XHereticX 05-31-07, 08:24 PM	its not so easy to do it in the wheel anymore either. Judging from the stuff in MoTP and all the 3rd edition content on the planar works, the GH universe also seems pretty finate and the demons/devils would be equally hampered there. The whole 3rd edition system seems to imply a infinate multiverse composed of finate universes connected by the Plane of Shadow.
ripvanwormer 05-31-07, 11:30 PM	Judging from the stuff in MoTP and all the 3rd edition content on the planar works, the GH universe also seems pretty finate It's explicitly infinite, in fact. That's what the "infinite" planar trait means. The Material Plane in the Great Wheel cosmology is also explicitly infinite, so it's much more than Greyhawk's universe. Besides which, the baatezu of the Wheel don't have to worry about Kelemvor poaching souls that would normally go to them automatically.
Drew1369r 06-01-07, 01:09 AM	The way I look at the planes is one thing... how did Bigby, Melf, Otiluke Mordikanin's(sp?) spells get to Faerun in the first place if the planes didn't interconnect. From what I remember in 2nd Ed the FR and Core dieties were one in the same... just held different Dogma's... Ehlonna/Mielikki Azuth/Boccob And now look at these Yondolla, Corrollen, Moradin, Garl, Gruumsh, Lloth, Asmodeus, Orcus who was once slain by an FR diety but no other reverberation thru the DnD cosmos... was he still considered alive on another material plane... could he still manifest on Greyhawk? How can these Dieties be if the cosmology is so apart. But the rules of one "Ao" to the next could be completly different. So who is to say that the Demons and Devils are infinate or finate... the DM does. ;)
Snarkbone 06-01-07, 12:04 PM	Orcus who was once slain by an FR diety but no other reverberation thru the DnD cosmos... was he still considered alive on another material plane... could he still manifest on Greyhawk? And if he hasn't been slain everywhere, is he still prince of undead everywhere? :thinks: I love D&D!
XHereticX 06-01-07, 07:05 PM	It's explicitly infinite, in fact. That's what the "infinite" planar trait means. The Material Plane in the Great Wheel cosmology is also explicitly infinite, so it's much more than Greyhawk's universe. Besides which, the baatezu of the Wheel don't have to worry about Kelemvor poaching souls that would normally go to them automatically. And the FR universe isn't? Oh, kia exists beyong the realms too. So Orcus died in more than one setting, and came back in more than one setting.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-01-07, 08:25 PM	Orcus who was once slain by an FR diety but no other reverberation thru the DnD cosmos... was he still considered alive on another material plane... could he still manifest on Greyhawk? Kiaransalee was originally a mortal elf on the world of Threnody. Her genocide of every living creature on the face of that world ended up leading to her elevation to demigod, and her being worshipped by drow (including the drow of Toril) happened later. She's not exclusively Torillian, either then or now in 3.x. After she killed Orcus he was dead, his deific corpse drifting on the Astral, with no xerox copies of his floating around in seperated cosmologies, because there was a common cosmology at the time, and FR only retroactively split itself off recently. How you want to handle Orcus's death and return in the 3e FR planes is a problem I'm not going to dirty my hands with, because I continue to use the Great Wheel.
XHereticX 06-01-07, 08:32 PM	Kiaransalee was originally a mortal elf on the world of Threnody. Her genocide of every living creature on the face of that world ended up leading to her elevation to demigod, and her being worshipped by drow (including the drow of Toril) happened later. She's not exclusively Torillian, either then or now in 3.x. After she killed Orcus he was dead, his deific corpse drifting on the Astral, with no xerox copies of his floating around in seperated cosmologies, because there was a common cosmology at the time, and FR only retroactively split itself off recently. How you want to handle Orcus's death and return in the 3e FR planes is a problem I'm not going to dirty my hands with, because I continue to use the Great Wheel. Ahh, I don't know how you do it shemmy. I find it hard to use the wheel with events like Lolth's upheval and the death of two drow deities. I don't think realms exclusive stuff should affect the rest of the multiverse too greatly.
Snarkbone 06-02-07, 09:41 AM	Kiaransalee was originally a mortal elf on the world of Threnody. Her genocide of every living creature on the face of that world ended up leading to her elevation to demigod, and her being worshipped by drow (including the drow of Toril) happened later. She's not exclusively Torillian, either then or now in 3.x. But if retcon goes all the way back, and wheel and tree are separate, how did Kira get here if she's from some other prime (which is what I think the word "world" refers, as opposed to simple "plane"). So even in retcon there is a connection?
Shemeska the Marauder 06-02-07, 10:26 AM	But if retcon goes all the way back, and wheel and tree are separate, how did Kira get here if she's from some other prime (which is what I think the word "world" refers, as opposed to simple "plane"). So even in retcon there is a connection? It would be dumb to rewrite her history entirely. She's simply an interloper, same as Tyr of the Norse pantheon, same as Loviatar of the Finnish pantheon, same as the entire Egyptian and Babylonian pantheons for Mulhorand and Unther, etc. Even with the cosmology retcons they're all exactly who they appear to be, and their origins haven't been redacted.
Snarkbone 06-02-07, 10:40 AM	It would be dumb to rewrite her history entirely. She's simply an interloper, same as Tyr of the Norse pantheon, same as Loviatar of the Finnish pantheon, same as the entire Egyptian and Babylonian pantheons for Mulhorand and Unther, etc. Even with the cosmology retcons they're all exactly who they appear to be, and their origins haven't been redacted. Well then we have a connection, otherwise there wouldn't be interlopers. And if there is a connection, and Hell/Abyss in FR is separate, it would create a huge duplication with all other Hell/Abyss, and confusion as to which hell/abyss the souls of which plane go (especially if it's not on prime that you die). So yeah, I don't see how there can be different cosmologies. Two different drawings of isomorphic graphs (with vertices being planes), maybe, I'll buy that. If they want different, they have to rewrite each of those entries. "It's too much work", and "we are lazy" are not excuses.
GothicDan 06-02-07, 11:53 AM	But there ARE different cosmologies. We all hate it, but that's what WotC treats it as.
ripvanwormer 06-02-07, 11:55 AM	And the FR universe isn't? If by "universe" you mean the Great Tree, then no, it isn't. The Faerunian cosmos only reflects the beliefs and longings of one continent, half a continent, really - Faerun. While there might be an infinite amount of space on the various planes, there's a very finite amount of content within them. It's a tiny cosmology. Zakhara, Maztica, Kara-Tur - they all have their own sets of planes beyond the tree. Other worlds would have planes more distant still - even the other worlds of Realmspace would have sets of planes entirely unrecognizable by the people of Faerun. Once you get to the other crystal spheres of Toril's material plane - well, according to the canon, the nearest ones are Greyspace, Krynnspace, and Refuge, and you're back in the Great Wheel (at least as far as the vast majority of the worlds are concerned; we could argue about Krynnspace, but Krynn itself has been removed from that sphere anyway). I find it hard to use the wheel with events like Lolth's upheval and the death of two drow deities. I don't think realms exclusive stuff should affect the rest of the multiverse too greatly. My solution would be to either ignore those plotlines, since they're annoying and ham-fisted, or to assume that yes, they affect the rest of the multiverse. I don't see how either solution would be much of a problem. But there ARE different cosmologies. I would argue there isn't. The "canon" is contradictory enough, when viewed as a whole, that I can see it argued either way. Because the 3e rules are meant to include the possibility of alternate cosmologies, the FR Campaign Setting provided us with one, but it isn't actually meant to be used in any campaign where other planes and worlds are important. Sean K. Reynolds said it wasn't his intention for there to be multiple Abysses and multiple Baators in the same campaign - the Forgotten Realms cosmology is only meant to apply in campaigns where Toril is the only world there is. And because the existence of other worlds is integral to Toril, the Forgotten Realms cosmology doesn't apply at all. This position may seem strange, since the people around here are used to following the opinions of the current game designers as if those opinions were interesting or important or valid in some way, but if you realize that they're just gamers like the rest of us, and the total canon of the setting is much vaster than whatever Rich Baker said yesterday, it's very liberating.
XHereticX 06-02-07, 12:54 PM	If by "universe" you mean the Great Tree, then no, it isn't. The Faerunian cosmos only reflects the beliefs and longings of one continent, half a continent, really - Faerun. While there might be an infinite amount of space on the various planes, there's a very finite amount of content within them. It's a tiny cosmology. Zakhara, Maztica, Kara-Tur - they all have their own sets of planes beyond the tree. Other worlds would have planes more distant still - even the other worlds of Realmspace would have sets of planes entirely unrecognizable by the people of Faerun. Once you get to the other crystal spheres of Toril's material plane - well, according to the canon, the nearest ones are Greyspace, Krynnspace, and Refuge, and you're back in the Great Wheel (at least as far as the vast majority of the worlds are concerned; we could argue about Krynnspace, but Krynn itself has been removed from that sphere anyway). My solution would be to either ignore those plotlines, since they're annoying and ham-fisted, or to assume that yes, they affect the rest of the multiverse. I don't see how either solution would be much of a problem. I would argue there isn't. The "canon" is contradictory enough, when viewed as a whole, that I can see it argued either way. Because the 3e rules are meant to include the possibility of alternate cosmologies, the FR Campaign Setting provided us with one, but it isn't actually meant to be used in any campaign where other planes and worlds are important. Sean K. Reynolds said it wasn't his intention for there to be multiple Abysses and multiple Baators in the same campaign - the Forgotten Realms cosmology is only meant to apply in campaigns where Toril is the only world there is. And because the existence of other worlds is integral to Toril, the Forgotten Realms cosmology doesn't apply at all. This position may seem strange, since the people around here are used to following the opinions of the current game designers as if those opinions were interesting or important or valid in some way, but if you realize that they're just gamers like the rest of us, and the total canon of the setting is much vaster than whatever Rich Baker said yesterday, it's very liberating. That, just made me feel a lot better. So both are canon, the tree is just a single-minded perspective upon a far greater multiverse all united under the same cosmology and in the same prime. Unfortunatly, that is not canon but might as well be since nearly nobody uses the tree anyway and it has been 7 years. I can always think about it like this, Faerun views cosmology as only the divine realms of their gods, Krynn generalizes the wheel into one upper plane, one neutral plane, and one lower plane. And Eberron just sees the few parts of the planes that interlope into their prime and that they can actually access as the planes. Ahh, much better....:embarrass
Snarkbone 06-02-07, 01:46 PM	But there ARE different cosmologies. The point isn't that they are different, but that they are not disjoint. Thus Lolth could meet any of her carbon copies (well not on FR prime, due to Ao, but everywhere else she can). In particular Lolth1 could argue against Lolth2 getting the Lolth-warshipper souls. Perhaps more importantly, if there can be an arbitrary number of cosmologies all different but connected to FR, then there is infinitely many Devils, and not just Demons, thus pure FR argument for finite many devils fails. So even FR only lore + retcon would suggest uniqueness of Hell at the very least.
Darakhoranon 06-02-07, 03:35 PM	Or just ignore the whole "different cosmologies" part, say that worlds like Eberron are "remote" (possibly with additional demi-/alternate elemental/whatever planes), i.e. difficult to reach/leave and leave it at that. In the rare cases where your PCs DO travel between worlds, you can always use the Shadow Plane/unusal astral constellations/etc. to open the way. Apart from that, just ignore the discrepancies - who really cares that on Eberron you have balors and pit fiends living on a variant fire plane? That doesn´t really mean anything for the Abyss or Baator. You´ll never find a way to take care of all the discrepancies while at the same time not alienating at least half your audience. I, for one, prefer the POSSIBILITIES of a single cosmology and thus interplanar travel (while explaining the appearance of certain gods on several worlds) - I usually don´t use it, but if I wanted to... If you prefer doing it in differently, have fun, but don´t expect this "problem" to be ever solved...
GothicDan 06-02-07, 06:21 PM	This position may seem strange, since the people around here are used to following the opinions of the current game designers as if those opinions were interesting or important or valid in some way, but if you realize that they're just gamers like the rest of us, and the total canon of the setting is much vaster than whatever Rich Baker said yesterday, it's very liberating. I still use the Great Wheel. You should know by now I could care less what designers say, unless I actually agree with what they say. ;) I'm just saying what the designers say canon is.
ripvanwormer 06-02-07, 07:05 PM	I'm just saying what the designers say canon is. And I'm taking the somewhat radical position that they don't, and can't. The canon is what's in the books, and while later books can contradict earlier ones, it's all part of the same canon. Doesn't that feel liberating?
GothicDan 06-02-07, 10:06 PM	Not at all. Because I never felt particularly constrained by canon (my interpretation) anyway. :)
XHereticX 06-03-07, 08:03 AM	The point isn't that they are different, but that they are not disjoint. Thus Lolth could meet any of her carbon copies (well not on FR prime, due to Ao, but everywhere else she can). In particular Lolth1 could argue against Lolth2 getting the Lolth-warshipper souls. Perhaps more importantly, if there can be an arbitrary number of cosmologies all different but connected to FR, then there is infinitely many Devils, and not just Demons, thus pure FR argument for finite many devils fails. So even FR only lore + retcon would suggest uniqueness of Hell at the very least. see, that is the main problem I have with the new cosmology setup. I really don't mind the tree and its so called "problems", but when we have hundreads of Lolths, Corellons, Asmodeuses, and demos running around the multiverse, then I start going loco. And the whole shadow plane connection thing, its so aesthetically ugly it drives me mad. And why is the Oerth prime infinate under one cosmology and the Toril one is only one little crystal sphere(Ed himself said it) with a few little cosmologies. Gee, if you are going to separate the cosmologies, at least make it balanced and even.
Zanan 06-04-07, 06:18 AM	A couple of points ... First, regarding drow deities. It becomes almost useless to speculate about them these days, as the Lady Penitent series will most likely turn them all (or at least those which remain) upside down. I mean, we only have 15 dozen human deities hanging about, but lets have them drow deities tear themselves up ... LP II Storm of the Dead - ad says: As the followers of Eilistraee fall one by one to Halisstra's wrath, Lolth turns her attention to other gods. (Now, who might that be, when Vhaeraun and Selvetarm have already been dealt with?) LP III Ascendency of the Last - The dark elves of Faerûn must finally choose between a goddess that offers redemption and peace, or a goddess that demands sacrifice and blood. We know what a human would choose, but what about a drow? Can't say that I look forward to the outcome, in many ways. As for devils, there are ways (feats, spells, classes) for every Faerûnian to side with a devil lord rather than a deity. There can be clerics and blackguards actively seducing other mortals to their fiendish lords, as well as devils like the erinnyes or brachinas who tempt mortals into the worship of archdevils. These souls will go straight into the Nine Hells, I would assume.
Snarkbone 06-04-07, 08:12 AM	A couple of points ... First, regarding drow deities. It becomes almost useless to speculate about them these days, as the Lady Penitent series will most likely turn them all (or at least those which remain) upside down. I mean, we only have 15 dozen human deities hanging about, but lets have them drow deities tear themselves up I know, at first I thought that too, but, I don't know, somehow it just doesn't feel like they'll consolidate. Though no single line in particular says it, the whole thing has this feeling of Big Bang to it. Collect all of the chaos energy (of CG and CE elves) into one, it won't be contained for long in a finite constraint. So there could be unity for a shot while, but then BOOM, and we are back to normal. At least I hope they'll kill a few and add a few after the big boom. I think this is WotC's attempt to shake things up and redeem themselves for their last attempt, since WotSQ was impressively unimpressive in that department. A lot of stuff happened, but no major shake up in the pantheon, just a whole bunch of mortals got slaughtered. The way things are in Underdark, you don't need a major crisis of faith for that, so the whole Silence was wasted to no end when the smoke cleared.
ShadezofDis 06-04-07, 11:50 AM	I prefer to think of the cosmological debacle in this way; Much like the Gods have avatars the Planes can project themselves into a cosmology that has "closed". Thus, Forgotten Realms does have it's own Celestial realms, the Abyss, the Hells, ect, however, these reals are lesser than their "real" version. (which goes a long way towards explaining how character X, Y or Z can compete with a Demon Lord, an Arch-Devil, ect) So, the Great Wheel is "core" and AO just shunted the Forgotten Realms a bit further away from the "core" to protect the integrity of FR. At least that's the theory I'm working on and I like it a lot so far. Could be that there are many problems with it that I'm not considering yet but that's ok with me. :)
ShadezofDis 06-04-07, 11:52 AM	see, that is the main problem I have with the new cosmology setup. I really don't mind the tree and its so called "problems", but when we have hundreads of Lolths, Corellons, Asmodeuses, and demos running around the multiverse, then I start going loco. But. . . there very well CAN be hundreds of Corellons, Asmodeuses, etc, running around. It's just that they'd be avatars. :)
Zanan 06-04-07, 12:34 PM	At least I hope they'll kill a few and add a few after the big boom. Yes, but why select a pantheon with a handful of deities when about 150odd other deities - some of which are never heard off bar in sourcebooks - are about and can get at each others throats. :rolleyes:
GothicDan 06-04-07, 12:54 PM	Because no one could care!
Drew1369r 06-04-07, 06:43 PM	Kiaransalee was originally a mortal elf on the world of Threnody. Her genocide of every living creature on the face of that world ended up leading to her elevation to demigod, and her being worshipped by drow (including the drow of Toril) happened later. She's not exclusively Torillian, either then or now in 3.x. After she killed Orcus he was dead, his deific corpse drifting on the Astral, with no xerox copies of his floating around in seperated cosmologies, because there was a common cosmology at the time, and FR only retroactively split itself off recently. How you want to handle Orcus's death and return in the 3e FR planes is a problem I'm not going to dirty my hands with, because I continue to use the Great Wheel. I didn't realize that... sweet... nor did I know it happened in 2ed... interesting to say the least!
QuenthelsChampion 06-04-07, 08:29 PM	You also have to think of the evil dieties. Some people who worship evil gods are afraid of what will come to them in their patrons domain. They might be slaves to their will with no escape, or would have to fight for their right of passage and do not consider themselves strong enough. So in a desperate attempt to escape such a fate they can have power and live as a devil by just signing the contract on the dotted line. Not a bad deal once you get up in the ranks. QC
Zireael 06-05-07, 08:46 AM	Hah, the same goes with demons - tricking into Lloth's service. Back to the topic, I agree with ShadezofDis on Great Wheel.
ShadezofDis 06-05-07, 09:35 AM	Hah, the same goes with demons - tricking into Lloth's service. Back to the topic, I agree with ShadezofDis on Great Wheel. Just to let you know, that theory is still, very much, on the drawing board. I'm just not familiar enough with the planes to really tell if there are glaring holes in it (the theory). ;) However, I do like my take on it (shocking!) and as far as I understand the planes it's pretty solid as a theory. :) I'm also a fan of the avatar changing from the "core" deity/power (running along the lines of a 'super heresy') Of course, I'm not sure I'll ever work this into an actual game, but that's ok. ;)
Red_Wizard 06-05-07, 11:46 AM	I look at it like this. The Tree is like the Berlin wall. It wasn't always there, but once it was erected, only those approved by the head hauncho could come or go as they pleased. This doesn't mean they aren't part of the great wheel, or that the hells/ abyss are not one and the same when associated with the reformed Faerunian pantheon. It simply means that where demons and devils once had no restraints wherever they went, and on whatever plane they visited, they must now acquire the appropriate "documents" to work their craft inside the "wall" and on the prime that is Toril. This saves a lot of hassle, and make sense for bridging the two era's (2E-3E). Unless of course you ignore the ToT, then it's easier to just ignore everything from 3.x on. ;):P
Snarkbone 06-05-07, 01:14 PM	So, the Great Wheel is "core" and AO just shunted the Forgotten Realms a bit further away from the "core" to protect the integrity of FR. Not exactly a mistake, but slightly inaccurate. It wasn't Ao that shunted FR off somewhere. Once upon a time in 2e, FR was on the wheel, and it were the multiverse shattering events of Vecna's exploits in Sigil (culminating with his near death experience with the Lady of Pain) that are the "in-D&D-universe" explanation of how we got to 3e difference.
GothicDan 06-05-07, 01:40 PM	That's only actually a theory. There's no proof that says this actually happened, and in fact, looking at the various writeups of Vecna, his current power level would suggest that no such thing ever happened.
Snarkbone 06-05-07, 02:54 PM	That's only actually a theory. There's no proof that says this actually happened, and in fact, looking at the various writeups of Vecna, his current power level would suggest that no such thing ever happened. Last I checked Vecna Lives!, Vecna Reborn, and Die Vecna Die! were the official version of events from beginning to semi-end. And his current low power level is clearly explained (and is a direct result). They remain so, until something is published to retract any of them. Have you got any, I admit I haven't kept up with core lore that much since DVD, just focusing the rules/spells? You might be thinking Torment events, which are pure speculation, but are irrelevant here.
Zanan 06-05-07, 06:48 PM	BTW ... officially, there actually never was a Great Wheel in FR cosmology ... in-game. By default, it has always been like it is today and was not reshaped in-game with the advent of 3E. The only change in-game was Lolth's removal of the Demonweb out of The FR Abyss. And, BTW II., there was no Lloth in Greyhawk/Core cosmology, only a Lolth.
XHereticX 06-05-07, 09:01 PM	I prefer to think of the cosmological debacle in this way; Much like the Gods have avatars the Planes can project themselves into a cosmology that has "closed". Thus, Forgotten Realms does have it's own Celestial realms, the Abyss, the Hells, ect, however, these reals are lesser than their "real" version. (which goes a long way towards explaining how character X, Y or Z can compete with a Demon Lord, an Arch-Devil, ect) So, the Great Wheel is "core" and AO just shunted the Forgotten Realms a bit further away from the "core" to protect the integrity of FR. At least that's the theory I'm working on and I like it a lot so far. Could be that there are many problems with it that I'm not considering yet but that's ok with me. :) I would say that is true except for the part that the FR versions are "lesser." At least in the realms, my interpretation of it is that when Ao allows avatars into The Realms Universe(Realmspace), the avatars get upped to full power.
ShadezofDis 06-06-07, 08:01 AM	I would say that is true Be careful about that part, this is my own lil baby and has nothing to do with lore. Just trying to keep that clear. :) except for the part that the FR versions are "lesser." At least in the realms, my interpretation of it is that when Ao allows avatars into The Realms Universe(Realmspace), the avatars get upped to full power. That's a way to take it, however, for myself, this spawned in part due to the "Who'd win, Asmo or a God" type debate. I like the idea of a "true" plurality of being, that Asmo is Asmo across the multiverse and that Hell is Hell across the multiverse (same with the Abyss, the Celestial Realms, etc etc etc). I also like the idea that the FR Asmo could rebel against the "core" Asmo (and perhaps will, I might just run with the idea (spoiler from El in Hell)that the madness Mystra "shot" at Asmo inherently changed that version of Asmo) I'm going to have to do some more thinking about it, but part of my theory is that each of these types of beings, any who can make avatars, have X amount of power and Y amount of attention. They create avatars with the power and they control them with attention (they are themselves but they also have a psuedo-individuality, in other words, the more Asmo is paying attention to Mepho the less he's paying attention to an avatar running around on random world, enabling that avatar to potentially split off from Asmo in a sense and try to "take over Asmo" himself) Anyhow, this doesn't really have much use game play wise but I still like to theorize about it. :)
Micheal_Roele 06-07-07, 09:21 AM	I would say that is true except for the part that the FR versions are "lesser." At least in the realms, my interpretation of it is that when Ao allows avatars into The Realms Universe(Realmspace), the avatars get upped to full power. They would be lesser versions, not in power, but in importance and in scope. Its not a tangible stat thing, more of a metaphysical one. Realmspace is much smaller, and contains less souls. Forgetten Realms is one contient really. The Devils have small cults, but aren't getting much in Soul yield. The "Great Wheel" or multiverse versions would be the greater version, because there are more souls to garner. Asmodeus would be where the action in....and with the number of gods in Faerun, and the low yield of souls, Faerun would be like a single Wal-Mart...Asmodeus is more worried about the totality of the franchise.
ShadezofDis 06-07-07, 09:53 AM	They would be lesser versions, not in power, but in importance and in scope. Its not a tangible stat thing, more of a metaphysical one. I'd make it a stats one. Basically, if I were forced to run this type of situation tomorrow I'd go with the fiendish codex stats for Asmo in FR (well, the FR Asmo's avatar would be fiendish codex stats) and something like the dice freaks Asmo for the "true, 'core' Asmo" Basically, I don't like PCs going off at 15th level and kicking godlike beings around the multiverse. I'm a-ok with others doing this, but it's not my cup of tea. If you're going to try and take out a godlike being you'd best have the ability to manipulate reality (inherently, not as a spell) otherwise you're in for a world of hurt. But that's my thing, unless I'm in your game it doesn't apply to anything else in the world. :D
Micheal_Roele 06-07-07, 11:58 AM	Good point. I would agree with that. FC II emphasizes Archdevil Aspects, less powerful Avatars really. BoVD has a more powerful aspect, and they even advise giving Divine Ranks as an even more powerful step. Maybe the Archdevils the realms see are just aspects. Dispater, for example, always his true form is in his fortress, and he only manifests aspects to the rest of the multiverse. Perhaps the Realms has the FC II stats, Other worlds with more Archdevil worship gets BoVD, and their true selves, which really are never seen by anyone hardly is the Divine Version.
ShadezofDis 06-07-07, 12:22 PM	I'd just like to take another moment and say that my theories have nothing to do with canon and are only theories on how I would like to see the planes and what makes sense to me. :) That said, Micheal_Roele, I see that as very likely, though I would play with the divine ranks a bit, full divinity in their "core" plane, lesser divinity in the "avatar planes" and scaling avatars based on if it's an avatar of the "core" or an "avatar" of the "avatar plane". Note: avatar might not be the right word but it's the one I'm using :)
XHereticX 06-07-07, 08:55 PM	well, we could always use the wheel and say the tree is a clueless representation of things like most people seem to do. I think that was many of the designers intent all along. Anyway, there isn't much support for the tree outside of Gray Richardson anyway.
Gray Richardson 06-08-07, 01:43 AM	My understanding is that the FR writers and designers will continue to use the Great Tree for the cosmology of the Forgotten Realms. Currently there is a series of novels that is set in the Great Tree cosmology, The Empyrean Odyssey series, starting with The The Gossamer Plain (http://ww2.wizards.com/books/Wizards/Products/?doc=955537400) by Thomas Reid. A rip-roaring good read, by the way! There are also a number of quiet fans of the Great Tree. Lots of people use it. They may not be vocal about it, but it certainly has its fans. I get a lot of emails and PM's from them. Please understand that I don't bear any ill-will toward the Great Wheel, it is a wonderful cosmology and I loved it and gamed in it for a number of years. I think there is room for any number of cosmologies, and I am a strong advocate for the freedom of choice of gamers to use whichever cosmology they like for their own game. But I have fallen madly in love with the Great Tree and so it haunts my dreams and consumes my thoughts. One day I will know her many mysteries... ;)
Mr_Miscellany 06-08-07, 02:11 AM	Anyway, there isn't much support for the tree outside of Gray Richardson anyway. True for the highly-vocal few on these boards, I suppose (see my sig quote, below). I doubt it's something most Realms DMs outside of these boards concern themselves with. Though you'll have to lump me in with Gray: I'm all for the GT and I use it in my Realms Campaign. From a play standpoint and a game design standpoint, the GT is simply better for the Realms as a product and a game setting, and for its players and DMs as a setting element. I don't begrudge anyone their choice of cosmology (I’ve been gaming for over twenty years, and one thing I’ve learned over time is that the people who “offer” unsolicited feedback on other people’s choices about how to play the game are themselves on the whole worth about as much a steaming pile of dog droppings --not to mention the fact that such people should be given a swift punch in the face to help silence their unwanted offerings, whenever possible), but I also won't shed a tear for or support those who complain about the GT or pine for the GW when they're more concerned about baggage laden, out of date canon for the setting then about game play and the survivability of the setting.
GothicDan 06-08-07, 02:19 AM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the GT was specifically made with the idea in mind that the vast majority of players would not even use the planes in play at all? Not being simply antagonistic here - that's genuinely what I seem to remember. I am sure if it's untrue, Miscellany will be just as quick with an SKR quote saying otherwise as Old Sage would be with a Greenwood one. ;) I, for one, am happy that they stopped promoting the Planescape setting. I don't think they could have done it justice with the current emphasis on mechanics. A lot of the material in PS was pure lore and story with little to no mechanics behind it, and I don't think that would have been WotC's style. However, if I did decide not to use the Wheel for FR, I'd use Ed's original design, most likely - a silvery Wood Between the Worlds which basically functions as the Wheel's Astral anyway.
Mr_Miscellany 06-08-07, 02:28 AM	Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the GT was specifically made with the idea in mind that the vast majority of players would not even use the planes in play at all? I believe you're on the right track. IIRC (and I could be wrong here) the idea going in was that a majority of campaigns didn't go to the planes or use the planes, so it wouldn't be a good idea to emphasize them as on par with the actual Realms themselves. I, for one, am happy that they stopped promoting the Planescape setting. I don't think they could have done it justice with the current emphasis on mechanics. A lot of the material in PS was pure lore and story with little to no mechanics behind it, and I don't think that would have been WotC's style. As an aside I'd disagree with you (no surprise, I know) here. I believe WotC succeeded in giving players a more in-depth experience of the Realms by upping the mechanics (read: shoring up 2E's manny mechanical weaknesses) of the game. I think WotC could have (could? you never know...;)) do the same with Planescape.
GothicDan 06-08-07, 02:36 AM	I believe you're on the right track. IIRC (and I could be wrong here) the idea going in was that a majority of campaigns didn't go to the planes or use the planes, so it wouldn't be a good idea to emphasize them as on par with the actual Realms themselves. So, how exactly would the GT provide more playability, if no one was going to pay attention to the GW anyway? They wouldn't have needed to print any actual material, or understand things that core already didn't explain in the Manual of the Planes and the Planar Handbook. The majority of new players would be coming from core, and so they'd already have a passing knowledge of the GW. The GT, if anything, would seem more confusing to new players, and decrease playability. I know of several new players (as in, didn't play in the Realms before 3E) who did just this. They already knew the Wheel, saw little material for the GT, and stuck with it. There's been such posts on this very forum (from non-regulars). So, how exactly does adding -more- things for new players to have to figure out make it more playable? As an aside I'd disagree with you (no surprise, I know) here. I believe WotC succeeded in giving players a more in-depth experience of the Realms by upping the mechanics (read: shoring up 2E's manny mechanical weaknesses) of the game. I'm not sure if you're getting what I'm saying here: Planescape's lack of rules is what allowed it in large part to become what it did, in my opinion. My favorite book, Faces of Evil: The Fiends (which you may or may not be familiar with), had about 1 page of mechanics in it. If it had had more, it would have diminished the page count for those wonderful stories, anecdotes, and delicious chunks of fluff. So, unless WotC decided to drastically increase the raw page count of planar products, Planescape ones simply would not have had the same amount of space devoted to roleplaying over mechanics. That's just a simple fact, as can be evidenced by their treatment in the Guide to the Planes (which was way too heavy on mechanics, in my opinion). I don't think adding MORE feats and PrCs is really 'shoring up weaknesses of 2E', since 2E DID have planar-specific kits and proficiencies for the planes. In this, of course, I refer to the Planewalker's Handbook, the most heavily mechanical of all PS pieces (and my least favorite, but a necessary evil).] I'm talking specifically here about how WotC would have treated PS material, not overhauling the system itself (I do agree that things like BAB and Saves are better, but that is nothing idiosyncratic to Planescape). We can continue this later, if you wish - on my part, at least. It's time for me to read some more Anansi Boys and watch Will and Grace, and to prep for studying for the GREs tomorrow.
ShadezofDis 06-08-07, 09:58 AM	The more I've thought about the GT the more I like it. Of course I have some personal ideas about the interactions of the planes, the role of the gods, the role of AO and things of that nature and the GT works well with my theories. :) From a game play standpoint though, my players, even should they get into plane hopping, won't know if it's the GT, the GW or something else entirely. I'm not even sure I'm going to push things into the planes but, if I do decide to, it's going to be in a couple of years at best (monthly game, PCs are at 4th right now and that's after 4 games, they started at 3rd). Anyhow, the reason I like to think about these sorts of things is so I have a base understanding of outsiders and their interaction with the world, which helps me develop plot. Oh, and I have to say, while 3.xE mechanics are far superior, I feel swamped by the feats, classes, PrCs and races that are now available. It's like a vast sea of options that I don't really understand (because, IMO, you don't really understand it until you've played with it in game a few times). However, this is just my opinion. :)
GothicDan 06-08-07, 12:17 PM	From a game play standpoint though, my players, even should they get into plane hopping, won't know if it's the GT, the GW or something else entirely. As well they shouldn't. The Great Wheel is just a name. It has no actual bearing on how the cosmology is shaped. Guvners just like to use that nomenclature, just like Physicists wanted to create antimatter to account for weird momenta effects, without ever having actually detected a particle. Now, I should go jogging. It's so bloody hot out.
XHereticX 06-08-07, 08:39 PM	My understanding is that the FR writers and designers will continue to use the Great Tree for the cosmology of the Forgotten Realms. Currently there is a series of novels that is set in the Great Tree cosmology, The Empyrean Odyssey series, starting with The The Gossamer Plain (http://ww2.wizards.com/books/Wizards/Products/?doc=955537400) by Thomas Reid. A rip-roaring good read, by the way! There are also a number of quiet fans of the Great Tree. Lots of people use it. They may not be vocal about it, but it certainly has its fans. I get a lot of emails and PM's from them. Please understand that I don't bear any ill-will toward the Great Wheel, it is a wonderful cosmology and I loved it and gamed in it for a number of years. I think there is room for any number of cosmologies, and I am a strong advocate for the freedom of choice of gamers to use whichever cosmology they like for their own game. But I have fallen madly in love with the Great Tree and so it haunts my dreams and consumes my thoughts. One day I will know her many mysteries... ;) No gray, you got my position wrong. I am interested in the tree and want to explore it more. Its just so damn hard to like it though when there is nearly NOTHING on it and the impression you get from these boards is that nobody gives a crap for it. It they added more details and fleshed it out I would be genuinely interested. Hopefully they will start doing that now.
Gray Richardson 06-08-07, 09:02 PM	I'd use Ed's original design, most likely - a silvery Wood Between the Worlds which basically functions as the Wheel's Astral anyway.I love this idea too, and have been doing a lot of thinking about how to fit this into the Great Tree. My thinking is that the Great Tree has a fragmented astral plane (or planes). There is an Astral for Faerûn, a Spirit World for Kara-Tur, and (at least) two other Astral fragments serving Zakhara and Maztica. Maybe Katashaka and Osse have their own astrals too. (Although, perhaps Osse has a dreamtime instead.) I don't know what caused this fragmentation, but my best guess is that, as a plane of mind and spirit, these fragments are caused by the consensual worldview of large populations of sentient creatures. And then there is the plane of Faerie, which we are told is coterminous with the Material plane and has features in common with both a transitive plane and an outer plane. My thinking is that Faerie is another astral fragment split off from the Astral of Faerun (or perhaps it is the original astral and all others split off from it). I believe it was split off by the collective mind and worldview of the sylvan creator race. Faerie may share similarities with the Spirit World plane of Kara-Tur, and for all I know, Faerie may actually be one and the same plane as Kara-Tur's Spirit World plane, perhaps merely the more westerly portions of the Spirit World plane that are coterminous with Faerûn. Anyway, if Faerie is in fact some kind of alternate Astral plane, then it might look in places like a silver glade. It might have pools of water that function as portals to other worlds and planes (much the same way the color pools of the Silver Void Astral serve as portals to adjacent planes). I believe Ed's idea of a Wood Beyond the Worlds (á la Narnia) would fit in very nicely as a part of the lost plane of Faerie.
XHereticX 06-08-07, 09:07 PM	I love this idea too, and have been doing a lot of thinking about how to fit this into the Great Tree. My thinking is that the Great Tree has a fragmented astral plane (or planes). There is an Astral for Faerûn, a Spirit World for Kara-Tur, and (at least) two other Astral fragments serving Zakhara and Maztica. Maybe Katashaka and Osse have their own astrals too. (Although, perhaps Osse has a dreamtime instead.) I don't know what caused this fragmentation, but my best guess is that, as a plane of mind and spirit, these fragments are caused by the consensual worldview of large populations of sentient creatures. And then there is the plane of Faerie, which we are told is coterminous with the Material plane and has features in common with both a transitive plane and an outer plane. My thinking is that Faerie is another astral fragment split off from the Astral of Faerun (or perhaps it is the original astral and all others split off from it). I believe it was split off by the collective mind and worldview of the sylvan creator race. Faerie may share similarities with the Spirit World plane of Kara-Tur, and for all I know, Faerie may actually be one and the same plane as Kara-Tur's Spirit World plane, perhaps merely the more westerly portions of the Spirit World plane that are coterminous with Faerûn. Anyway, if Faerie is in fact some kind of alternate Astral plane, then it might look in places like a silver glade. It might have pools of water that function as portals to other worlds and planes (much the same way the color pools of the Silver Void Astral serve as portals to adjacent planes). I believe Ed's idea of a Wood Beyond the Worlds (á la Narnia) would fit in very nicely as a part of the lost plane of Faerie. Isn't the spirit world just the Astral in the east. And the only outer plane/astral in Kara-Tur? And if Faerie is linked with the Faerunian astral system, does that mean that the planet of the elves itself has now been permenently absorbed, maybe into a continent... Argh, all this new planes stuff makes my head hurt...
Gray Richardson 06-09-07, 03:17 AM	The Spirit World is said to be the astral of the eastern realms of Kara-Tur. However, while it's function may be similar, the look and feel of it is very different than the Silver Void of the Astral of Faerûn. Kara-Tur's Spirit World follows the rules set forth in the Manual of the Planes p.206. It is a vibrant plane. Things are more grand there. Mountains are more majestic. Trees are the paragons of arboreality. Rivers are more rivery, their water is purer and has a more pleasing sound. Colors have more depth and saturation. It is like an ideal reflection of the natural world. And practically everything has a spirit living in it. The trees all have spirits, the mountains and rivers and waterfalls have spirits in them. Which is much like the greek conception of nymphs living in everything, from naiads, to nereids and oceanids, to dryads and oreads. In D&D, these are all fey by the way. In Kozakura these would be called Kami. But all across the continent of Kara-Tur there are peoples who revere these spirits. In addition, the divine realms of the gods of Kara-Tur all attach to the Spirit World by portal I guess, instead of color pool I take it. Not sure if they have any expansive planes. I imagine there is a celestial city of some kind for the Celestial Bureacracy. And of course the Lords of Creation (the pantheon of the Kuong Kingdom) I envision them to have perhaps a sprawling plane attached to the Spirit World plane, all decked out in a fashion reminiscent of the culture and mythology of India, Southeast Asia and Indonesia. So Kara-Tur functions similarly to the occidental Astral, it's a coexistent and coterminous transitive plane that links the Material Plane with a number of outer planes, demiplanes or divine realms. Why it looks so different from the Silver Void astral, I find extremely intriguing. I can only speculate as to the answer. My best guess is that the look of the plane was influenced by the Sylvan creator race. The fey folk seem to be thriving in Kara-Tur. And the humans there not only worship these spirits, but would seem to have a worldview that is much closer to the fey outlook than in the west. And if so, then Kara-Tur's Spirit World may be linked somehow to the plane of Faerie. And if that is true, then it is not so much of a leap to consider whether this "lost" or "hidden" plane of Faerie is possibly even the same plane as the Spirit World of Kara-Tur, just maybe that portion of the plane which is coterminous with Faerûn. I don't know if that is true or not but it is a theory I am working on. As for the original homeworld of the elves, I do not know the answer to that one. There may be a material plane world called Faerie somewhere that is separate from the Plane of Faerie. There is enough conflicting evidence to support the notion that Faerie is actually the name of two separate places, one a plane, the other a material plane world. Ed Greenwood has mentioned he knows the answer to this but it has not been revealed to us yet. Maybe in the Grand History of the Realms... There was certainly a Crystal Sphere in the Spelljammer setting called Faeriespace, which may indeed be the original homeworld of the elves. I kind of like to think so. I do not know if Tintageer was located on one of those planets, or if Tintageer was located in the Plane of Faerie. The lore tracks just fine either way. I like to think, though, that Tintageer was actually an island located in the Plane of Faerie, perhaps in an area corresponding and coterminous with the Moonshaes or one of the islands off the Sword Coast. I have a sense that elves settled in Tintageer from yet some other elf homeworld in the even more distant past, very possibly even a world from the crystal sphere of Faeriespace. Or possibly they were colonists or refugees from the planet Threnody, which Kiaransalee killed off in an undead apocalypse. I hope Ed finally reveals some of the information about Faerie in the Grand History of the Realms. Maybe, just maybe, some of the new lore in that book will help us piece more of the clues together. :elf:
XHereticX 06-09-07, 09:24 AM	The Spirit World is said to be the astral of the eastern realms of Kara-Tur. However, while it's function may be similar, the look and feel of it is very different than the Silver Void of the Astral of Faerûn. Kara-Tur's Spirit World follows the rules set forth in the Manual of the Planes p.206. It is a vibrant plane. Things are more grand there. Mountains are more majestic. Trees are the paragons of arboreality. Rivers are more rivery, their water is purer and has a more pleasing sound. Colors have more depth and saturation. It is like an ideal reflection of the natural world. And practically everything has a spirit living in it. The trees all have spirits, the mountains and rivers and waterfalls have spirits in them. Which is much like the greek conception of nymphs living in everything, from naiads, to nereids and oceanids, to dryads and oreads. In D&D, these are all fey by the way. In Kozakura these would be called Kami. But all across the continent of Kara-Tur there are peoples who revere these spirits. In addition, the divine realms of the gods of Kara-Tur all attach to the Spirit World by portal I guess, instead of color pool I take it. Not sure if they have any expansive planes. I imagine there is a celestial city of some kind for the Celestial Bureacracy. And of course the Lords of Creation (the pantheon of the Kuong Kingdom) I envision them to have perhaps a sprawling plane attached to the Spirit World plane, all decked out in a fashion reminiscent of the culture and mythology of India, Southeast Asia and Indonesia. So Kara-Tur functions similarly to the occidental Astral, it's a coexistent and coterminous transitive plane that links the Material Plane with a number of outer planes, demiplanes or divine realms. Why it looks so different from the Silver Void astral, I find extremely intriguing. I can only speculate as to the answer. My best guess is that the look of the plane was influenced by the Sylvan creator race. The fey folk seem to be thriving in Kara-Tur. And the humans there not only worship these spirits, but would seem to have a worldview that is much closer to the fey outlook than in the west. And if so, then Kara-Tur's Spirit World may be linked somehow to the plane of Faerie. And if that is true, then it is not so much of a leap to consider whether this "lost" or "hidden" plane of Faerie is possibly even the same plane as the Spirit World of Kara-Tur, just maybe that portion of the plane which is coterminous with Faerûn. I don't know if that is true or not but it is a theory I am working on. As for the original homeworld of the elves, I do not know the answer to that one. There may be a material plane world called Faerie somewhere that is separate from the Plane of Faerie. There is enough conflicting evidence to support the notion that Faerie is actually the name of two separate places, one a plane, the other a material plane world. Ed Greenwood has mentioned he knows the answer to this but it has not been revealed to us yet. Maybe in the Grand History of the Realms... There was certainly a Crystal Sphere in the Spelljammer setting called Faeriespace, which may indeed be the original homeworld of the elves. I kind of like to think so. I do not know if Tintageer was located on one of those planets, or if Tintageer was located in the Plane of Faerie. The lore tracks just fine either way. I like to think, though, that Tintageer was actually an island located in the Plane of Faerie, perhaps in an area corresponding and coterminous with the Moonshaes or one of the islands off the Sword Coast. I have a sense that elves settled in Tintageer from yet some other elf homeworld in the even more distant past, very possibly even a world from the crystal sphere of Faeriespace. Or possibly they were colonists or refugees from the planet Threnody, which Kiaransalee killed off in an undead apocalypse. I hope Ed finally reveals some of the information about Faerie in the Grand History of the Realms. Maybe, just maybe, some of the new lore in that book will help us piece more of the clues together. :elf: No need to remind me on Asian mythology, I AM asian:D Your theories as usual are great and complex. I have a pet theory of my own which has been here for a while. I think that all the astral planes are just parts of one large astral plane system. They connect to any planes which are home to deities and powers that the inhabitants of the continents revere or fear. The planes just float outside of the trunk of the Astral and each planes has links and "cables" that attach to each section of the Astral they are asociated with. I think that Faerunian deities are known by different aspects in other continents and The Abyss, Nine Hells, and Blood Rift are connected to all the Astral Planes. This is quite fun thinking of ideas like this, though it does make my head hurt and it would be so easy to go back to the wheel. Oh Gray, by the way. Can you give me some links that give info on the tree system and how it works?
Zanan 06-09-07, 03:58 PM	Just for the sake of getting to the posts faster and not eating up thread pages, could you refrain from quoting entire replies? An "@XYZ ..." will do ... or the use of quotations as usual, if arguments need to be presented for various issues in a previous article.
XHereticX 06-09-07, 05:19 PM	ahh ok, ill try that
Gray Richardson 06-09-07, 08:53 PM	Can you give me some links that give info on the tree system and how it works?I don't know of any fan-sites yet that have Great Tree lore. Although I am seriously considering trying to put one together. Your best bet is to read the planes chapter of Players Guide to Faerûn. There are some Great Tree threads on these boards. The two that I posted most of my material in are here: The Order of Creation of the Planes (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=302068) and 100 Plot Hooks for your Planar Campaign (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-259611.html) In addition, I wrote some Great Tree related articles in the Candlekeep Compendium. You might check out: Candlekeep Compendium Volume II (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_II.zip) which has a triptych of articles about the Barrens of Doom & Despair, written by me, Kuje and Old Sage. Candlekeep Compendium Volume IV (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_IV.zip) which has an article about Dragon Eyrie Candlekeep Compendium Volume V (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_V.zip) has an article about the City of Dis Candlekeep Compendium Volume VI (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_VI.zip) has my take on the plane of Brightwater.
XHereticX 06-09-07, 08:56 PM	I don't know of any fan-sites yet that have Great Tree lore. Although I am seriously considering trying to put one together. Your best bet is to read the planes chapter of Players Guide to Faerûn. There are some Great Tree threads on these boards. The two that I posted most of my material in are here: The Order of Creation of the Planes (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=302068) and 100 Plot Hooks for your Planar Campaign (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-259611.html) In addition, I wrote some Great Tree related articles in the Candlekeep Compendium. You might check out: Candlekeep Compendium Volume II (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_II.zip) which has a triptych of articles about the Barrens of Doom & Despair, written by me, Kuje and Old Sage. Candlekeep Compendium Volume IV (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_IV.zip) which has an article about Dragon Eyrie Candlekeep Compendium Volume V (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_V.zip) has an article about the City of Dis Volume VI (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_VI.zip)has my take on the plane of Brightwater. I have read all of those.
Gray Richardson 06-09-07, 09:07 PM	I applaud your hunger for knowledge. I two wish there were more sources out there for Great Tree lore. You can find bits mentioned here and there. All the sourcebooks have little bits of planar lore that one can stumble across. The Volo's Guide articles in Dragon Magazine lately have revealed quite a bit of planar lore. You might try Thomas Reid's new book The Gossamer Plain (http://ww2.wizards.com/books/Wizards/Products/?doc=955537400) which is the start of a plane-spanning trilogy. The War of the Spider Queen series had lots of planar lore including information about the Blood Rift and of course the Demonweb Pits. Lisa Smedman's recent Vanity's Brood novel had some information about the layer of Smaragd, where Sseth is imprisoned. I have high hopes for the upcoming Grand History of the Realms which I am planning to mine for tidbits of planar history. Though I don't expect there to be a lot of such info inside, even a few scattered words and sentences may reveal quite a bit, and is the kind of thing that will keep me thinking for a long time to come.
XHereticX 06-09-07, 09:11 PM	Great articles by the way Gray, they were the only things I really paid any attention to on the Compedium. Yes, I am planning to read Gossamer Plain and the sample chapter was pretty good. The great tree has potential, its just that if the potential is not sufficiently watered the tree will wilter and die.:(
Shemeska the Marauder 06-10-07, 12:57 AM	Lisa Smedman's recent Vanity's Brood novel had some information about the layer of Smaragd, where Sseth is imprisoned. It's worth adding that that novel has the distinction of mentioning Ubtao's deific realm as being in the Outlands, which places (or replaces) the Outlands into the 3e FR cosmology. How this impacts those realms gods (such as Waukeen) who had deific realms on that plane pre-3e but were moved to seperate "planes" in the Tree isn't explained, but the use of the Outlands appears to have been deliberate (IIRC Lisa Smedman's comments correctly). Given the gatetowns and their connection to the Wheel's planes, Sigil's 'location' at the center of the Outlands, etc this also raises some other complications for strict Tree usage as it seems to be a bit of a paradox.
Gray Richardson 06-10-07, 02:36 AM	There is no conflict. Obviously the plane of Concordant Opposition has not been imported into the Great Tree. The Players Guide to Faerûn tells us that Ubtao's two divine realms, The Labyrinth of Life and the Forbidden Plateau lie within the plane called the House of Nature. Since characters in Lisa Smedman's novel refer to Ubtao's realm in the Outlands, we should rather infer that "the Outlands" is merely another name that people use to refer to the House of Nature, or alternatively that "the Outlands" is the name of a particular region within the House of Nature. I don't recall the context of the quote, but it may be that "the outlands" is the prefered name for that plane in either the Chultan or Vilhon Reach vernacular.
GothicDan 06-10-07, 07:52 AM	Gray, that line of argumentation is a bit of a stretch. And I don't think that because it's concerning a topic I'm not particularly content with (the Tree). Shemmy's assertion makes sense given that in previous editions, the Outlands was a very specific named plane of existence in the former cosmology, and I think Ubtao lived there in previous editions. Further, there's been blatant additions to the cosmology already that either add in new planes or create duplicate cosmological sites as in the Wheel (Limbo for one, and Rich pointing out that the Sigil of FR is the Sigil of the Wheel). Thus, there's both past historical suggestion to fortify Shemmy's belief, and evidence in current trends that show WotC is not adverse to performing such actions. Unless there's been any mentions of the Outlands referring to the House of Nature in 3E lore, or Smedman says that this was the mindset under which the tale was written, there's no actual reason to believe your assertion, except for those who simply will belief anything that cannot be wholly falsified in an attempt to keep a preconceived, personally meaningful status quo in perfect condition. Life tends to work, in general, by analyzing the most logical and probable conclusions of facts, not by ignoring valid logic just because a given conclusion is not one-hundred percent guaranteed to be true. ... I've been writing a story largely from the point of view of a Sun Elven Baelnorn dating back to a time prior to the Sundering. So excuse me if that sounds overly pedantic.
MarkusTay63 06-10-07, 12:41 PM	First and foremost, we are dealing with METAPHYSICAL concepts, so there is NO right or wrong way of looking at it. Cosmology doesn't truly exist on a physical level, merely aspects of it. If you can get past this, then you will realize that the interconectivity of the various planes (whole, demi, transaitive, elemental, outer, inner, proto, ect...) is a product of MORTAL imagination. If you NEED an IG reason for everyone 'forgetting about' the Great Wheel, then just connect it to the ToT. It is CANON that folks have been slowly forgetting about Ao and certain aspects of that RSE, so it would not be much of a stretch to add in the Cosmological view as well. Ao most likely feels mortals found out a little too much about the inner workings of the gods/Outerplanes, and has summararily done 'something' to rectify that. The Tree sounds like an Elven concept to me, and since magic is closely linked to Cosmology, and most magic has been learned from the Elves, it would be fairly easy to assume that it originates with them. I believe that their Home 'sphere' even looks like a Giant Tree (Spelljammer), so perhaps this is some sort of ancient racial memory? The Dwarves more likely have the entire Universe as some sort of Cave complex, whereas the Halflings would embrace Dan's (Ed's Original) concept of a 'Wood between the Worlds'. With the current lack of a Cosmology (do to what I mentioned in the above paragraph), the humans would embrace what they know best - Elven Lore. Thats NOT CANON, but it does make a whole lot of sense and is able to keep everyone happy. Grey - I have discussed some of your concepts with you in another thread, and the 'Fractured Astral' works, but once again only from a 'conceptual' viewpoint. I believe that the 'in-between area' is all one and the same, but the 'border area' (we discussed a 'Border Shadow' which I will be calling the Shadoworld in the K-T thread) will take on the appearance of whatever the creature's pre-conceptions are. The Spirit World of OA is seen exactly as you describe, but only by people raised in Oriental traditions. The Spitit World IS the Shadoworld, and is the border of the Ethereal, Astral, Shadow, AND Dream Planes. Think of it as the cosmic 'boarding area' for all transitive planes. It would also be the 'Wood between the Worlds' as per Ed's original concept, as well as the 'Cosmic Crossroads' we see Dr.Strange use in Marvel Comics, or the 'Ways' from the Wheel of Time novels. And liked we discussed earlier, it would also double as the 'near phlogiston' as well. :D In this way, everyone is right, because the Cosmology is mutable depending on who is veiwing it. A 'western' character taken into the Spirit World by a group of Kara-Tur priests will see the same world they see, not because he is currently in the East, but rather because he is EXPECTING to see what they see. He will think it is a different place from the 'Astral' (or border-ethereal) he knows simply because it will look different this time out. A planar traveler may have been in this shadowy border-realm dozens of times, but he may have perceived it different each time because of his methods getting there. It is a rare 'Prime' who truly knows the Dark of it. ;) Fact: Mortals brains will always try to fit something they do not understand (random patterns?) into something they do. This is a RW phenomena called pareidolia, and for more information on it you can Read This. (http://www.darkmattermag.com/april2004/dark_science.htm)
ripvanwormer 06-10-07, 12:55 PM	If you NEED an IG reason for everyone 'forgetting about' the Great Wheel Well, it is the Forgotten Realms, isn't it? Perhaps Toril goes through cycles of greater or lesser "interconnectivity" with the multiverse at large. 4000 years ago, during the height of the Imaskari empire, the Realms were extremely connected to parallel worlds, many cultures and peoples from Earth entering it through portals, and then it "withdrew" so that those cultures had a chance to blend with native Torilians and evolve along distinctive lines. Planewalkers in Sigil and other metropolitan planar communities began referring to the world as the Forgotten Realms because they had once been so important but the world's portals had become much less accessible. Then, more recently, the portals were rediscovered/reactivated, and Toril became very open to worlds like Oerth/Krynn/Spelljammer/Ravenloft/the Great Wheel once again. The Time of Troubles was definitely during that era, and probably even increased Toril's interconnectivity. During this era, Toril was once again "remembered" by the planes at large, once again a major planar hub. Much more recently, just before Lolth's Silence, that cycle ended and the Realms once again withdrew from the multiverse at large, becoming once again "forgotten." Perhaps that was the real reason for Lolth's silence: as the world withdrew from the Outer Planes, Lolth (as a very multispheric deity with strong ties to dozens of worlds, much more so than the rest of the drow pantheon) became unable to contact her worshippers there until she created a new plane within Toril's semicosmos from which to act as a base.
GothicDan 06-10-07, 12:58 PM	I dig that idea. Why couldn't WotC have printed it?
MarkusTay63 06-10-07, 01:39 PM	Excellent, Rip, as always. :D This point of view ties in nicely to certain 2e lore , like the Grand Conjunction of Ravenloft fame, as well as some newer lore created by Eberron. Perhaps 3e is like the "Third Age", and Toril will slowly drift away from the rest of the multiverse for awhile. It also ties in nicely with your own "How the Imaskari created Sigil" (http://boards1.wizards.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-422461), which I have built upon (hope you don't mind) with my Eastern Realms Timeline.
Gray Richardson 06-10-07, 04:04 PM	the Outlands was a very specific named plane of existence in the former cosmology, and I think Ubtao lived there in previous editions. Well, the original name of the plane is the Plane of Concordant Opposition, although people refer to it commonly as "the Outlands", more of a nickname really. The name "outlands" is a common enough word that it could easily refer to any wilderness area or outlying region. If a character in a novel referred to the Tunlands or the Stonelands as "the Outlands" would you insist that canon had changed and that the Plane of Concordant Opposition had been relocated to the wilds of Cormyr? I think not. When trying to resolve conflicts between established lore, I believe it is a standard rule of construction that novels do not overide sourcebooks. Since PGtF states clearly that Ubtao's divine realms are located in the House of Nature, this presents a conflict with your quote. (and it might be nice if you gave a page reference for the Smedman quote just to see what is actually printed there.) So how to resolve the conflict? Well 1) you could infer that the characters were mistaken when they referred to the Outlands. 2) you could assume that it was a typo or a "mistranslation" from the Torilian tongue into English by the translator (Lisa Smedman). 3) you could infer that "the Outlands" is just another name or nickname used by some cultures or languages to refer to the House of Nature or a specific region within the House of Nature. 4) I suppose you could also infer that Ubtao may have established a following in Greyhawk's universe and thus may have another divine realm in the cosmology next door situated in the Outlands of that cosmos, as some of the other Faerûnian gods have done. (The Great Wheel is like the My Space of the multiverse, pretty much any god can set up a divine realm there, while Toril's server is more exclusive and requires the consent of the network administrator Ao.) Since any one of these simple explanations could account for the "outlands" mention in Smedman's novel, and since any of these explanations solves the lore conflict without overiding the lore presented in PGtF, I think it is safe to say that a plane from the Great Wheel has not been suddenly grafted into the Great Tree.Further, there's been blatant additions to the cosmology already that either add in new planes or create duplicate cosmological sites as in the Wheel (Limbo for one, and Rich pointing out that the Sigil of FR is the Sigil of the Wheel).Ed Greenwood explained the Limbo reference. According to Ed, the Serpent Kingdoms quote was referring to the Limbo of the Great Wheel. The Great Wheel is a cosmology that lies next door to the Great Tree. There are portals between Limbo and the Great Tree which make that Limbo accessible from the Great Tree. Savy planar scholars of the Realms are aware of this and so make reference to Limbo from time to time. Additionally, it appears that the Slaad colonized the Great Tree at some point migrating over from the Great Wheel. They settled in a plane which is now called "The Supreme Throne", named so by Cyric in 1369 DR when he was kicked out of the Fugue Plane and relocated to the Supreme Throne. We have never been told what the name of that plane was originally. But it may be that the Slaad called it Limbo after the homeplane they came from over on the Great Wheel. Thus the plane of the Supreme Throne could have been called "Limbo" before Cyric renamed it in 1369 DR. There has been a hint that this possibility will be confirmed in the Grand History of the Realms. As for Sigil, it has portals to everywhere in (presumably) every cosmos. We don't know that it even exists within the Great Wheel. Sure, there is the optical illusion of a torus surmounting the Spire in the plane of Concordant Opposition in the Great Wheel, and people presume that is where Sigil is located. But no one knows for sure if that is really Sigil. It's not as if you can climb or fly up the Spire to check. Sigil is only accessible by portal, and as such may lie outside of all universes. It could even be located in the Far Realms, sending its portals into cosmologies like the roots of some invasive plant... It doesn't really change much to say that portals from Faerun connect to Sigil. Sigil has not been inserted into the Tree anywhere. We don't know for sure if it is even located within the Wheel. But I do think it is cool that there are links between the two cosmologies and that you can travel between them fairly easily.
Gray Richardson 06-10-07, 04:07 PM	Well, it is the Forgotten Realms, isn't it? Perhaps Toril goes through cycles of greater or lesser "interconnectivity" with the multiverse at large.Rip, I also like this idea a lot!
Mr_Miscellany 06-10-07, 04:09 PM	Good Afternoon Dan (and everyone), So, how exactly would the GT provide more playability, if no one was going to pay attention to the GW anyway? Good question. First off, the design of the GT didn’t assume no Realms DM was going to pay attention to or not use the planes. In fact, the GT promotes some level of interactivity with the planes by requiring outsiders to move into and through the prime in order to cross from one plane to another. By ‘playability’ I mean: No Realms DM is strapped down with all the interweaved lore of the old school Great Wheel from the past 20 years. No need to learn it, understand it or have to be aware of it to play in the Forgotten Realms, which is how it should by, IMNSHO. The less lore and backstory I (as DM) have to know about the outer planes before I get started, the more I can focus on the lore/mechanics of the planes that’s required of me to know to get my Realms campaign going on the planes when I want to go there. DMs have only so much processor time and space. Keeping their focus on the Realms (and not other settings, which is what the GW/Planescape is) was/is the right thing to do. As an aside: The idea of keeping the focus on the Realms and not other settings applies to game designers as well. The Realms should not be a back channel means for Planescape’s re-birth. That’s the kind of parasitic slow death The Realms and its Cosmology can do without. Instead, let Planescape creep back in through core (like via Drow of the Underdark). If there’s sufficient interest, I say print more Planescape for Core. They wouldn't have needed to print any actual material, or understand things that core already didn't explain in the Manual of the Planes and the Planar Handbook. I emphasized that last part, because I disagree entirely. The GW is for Core, not for the Realms (or Eberron). By making the Realms use the Core Cosmology, WotC would have intermixed the two and been required to devote additional space to those two books explaining the Realms to non-Realms players. Still, the idea deceptively simple and has merit from even a game design standpoint. It’s jus a really, really bad one. WotC’s goal with the FRCS was to do what the previous two boxed sets did: Put in print a single resource to allow players to game in the Realms. This has to include the Cosmology, regardless of its assumed level of use in play. Simply not printing anything about the Realms Cosmology and instead saying, “It’s the Great Wheel; go buy the MotP when it comes out,” would have left DMs with nothing to start with and required them to buy another book. Now I myself wouldn’t say the FRCS’ description of the GT is complete (far from it), but at least it released players from the burden of the GW and its history. Mixing core and Realms begs too many questions. Whither the Core (Greyhawk) deities? Is my Core DMG and PHB list of deities wrong? Why didn’t WotC print the FR Deities in the PHB instead? If I am supposed to use the Realms Deities instead, then where do they reside opposite the Core Deities on the same Cosmology? And if they occupy the same planes (with just different names attached) shouldn’t Obad-Hai and friends really be in the Realms, since the PHB doesn’t mention anything about a place named Greyhawk? Is my PC a Radiant Servant of Lathander, or is it really Pelor with a different name? :nonono: Remember, as you say they would be new players. Why take the Cosmology and Deities (basically Greyhawk’s stuff, minus any mention of that setting) that were tasked with teaching new players and DMs about divine beings, Cosmologies, Domains and how all this interacts with a campaign world, as well as how to create such from scratch, and intermingle it with a fixed setting? This removes the flexibility to ‘make your own world’ that the Core Books are supposed to promote. The GT, if anything, would seem more confusing to new players, and decrease playability. I don’t see how, given that new DMs and players will know (or very quickly learn) that The Realms is a unique, non-Core setting. It has different gods, spells not listed in the PHB, etc... I know of several new players (as in, didn't play in the Realms before 3E) who did just this. They already knew the Wheel, saw little material for the GT, and stuck with it. There's been such posts on this very forum (from non-regulars). I agree a newb is probably going to default to the books they own and not expand on what the PGtF and FRCS have to offer (even though the Manual of the Planes does teach DMs how to build their own planes and Cosmologies). But I absolutely do not think this in and of itself is good reason to simply make FR use the Core Cosmology. I'm not sure if you're getting what I'm saying here: Planescape's lack of rules is what allowed it in large part to become what it did, in my opinion. Planescape is deliciously complex, but it’s still Dungeons and Dragons. You still make attack rolls, saving throws, damage rolls, cast spells, pick locks, etc.... As much as one might like to emphasize the roleplaying involved in Planescape (just to survive, so a PC could know what the hells was going on with the seemingly endless variety of NPCs to contend with), it wasn’t a setting IMO built to de-emphasize mechanics. And since 2E’s poor set of game mechanics needed overhauling (and not just the additions of Feats and PRCs, we both know 2E’s problems were deeper than that), it stands to reason the addition of mechanics that better integrate game play and the imagination (what 3E’s mechanics do) would be of benefit to gaming in the Planescape setting. But this is a mirror conversation of any of the zillions or so about the Realms: Some players just want reams of lore and don’t care about the mechanics, so they don’t like 3E FR books and (sadly) tend to miss the good/new lore in 3E FR books.
MarkusTay63 06-10-07, 06:06 PM	Boy... Grey, Dan, AND myself all agreeing with you Rip. Thats got to be some kind of record. :D But then again, a great concept is hard to argue with. ;) As far as the rest goes, it specifically stated that the Outlands were referred to that way by Planers, whereas 'most' primes incorrectly called it 'Concordant Opposition'. Several other outer Planes were treated the same way when names were changed (Ysgard, Nirvana, etc...). Once again, there really isn't a wrong name for anything, because in a Universe with infinite planes there will be an infinite number of names for everything. Like Grey has stated, the 'Wheel' co-exists with the Tree, and I personally like to think of it as the 'default' cosmology, for when primes' preconceptions don't 'muddle the waters', so to speak. Going one step further with what Grey said earlier (concerning 'fractured astrals'), and myself, multiple incarnations of cosmologies are possible within a single Crystal Sphere/Prime Plane, with each different culture veiwing the inter-connectedness differently. The world is, literally, what you make of it.
ripvanwormer 06-10-07, 08:45 PM	As far as the rest goes, it specifically stated that the Outlands were referred to that way by planars, whereas 'most' primes incorrectly called it 'Concordant Opposition'. Strictly speaking, it's only the Outlands from the perspective of Sigil, where it's called that because it's literally "outside" the city. However, because of the influence of Sigil and its factions, it's often called the Outlands by others, even though the name doesn't make much sense from their perspective. If anything, from the perspective of the Great Ring it should be called the Inlands. Natives of the Outlands often simply call it the Land. It's also called (according to the 1e MotP) Godsland and the Friendly Opposition. It was probably named the Concordant Opposition by worshipers of Boccob, who carries an artifact called the Disk of Concordant Opposition. This artifact actually has more to do with the energy planes than Boccob's home plane, which is probably what makes the term "incorrect." I'm happy to assume that people in Faerun often call the plane the House of Nature.
Gray Richardson 06-11-07, 03:17 AM	It was probably named the Concordant Opposition by worshipers of BoccobI always thought it was named that by Gary Gygax--or maybe Jeff Grubb. At least that is what it was called in the back of my 1e Manual of the Planes. They could be worshipers of Boccob. Not sure if anyone has asked them... ;) Oddly enough, checking my original AD&D Players Handbook, I notice that there was originally no plane of Concordant Opposition (not even by the name Outlands) in the Great Rectangle. Which leads me to believe it is a younger plane. Or an afterthought. Or at least something worthy of commentary. What do you think it says about the Concordant Opposition that it first appeared in a revision to the cosmology after AD&D was introduced? Actually, it was introduced about the same time that the shape of the rectangle changed to a wheel. I wonder if one might draw some conclusions about the history of the cosmos based on the original rectangle shape. From a purely cartesian perspective, one could take it to mean that the law/chaos axis (often called the ethical axis) was actually longer than the good/evil axis (often called the moral axis) at this early stage of the cosmology. That could be a significant point. Just speculating that this might be a hint that the law/chaos axis was older than the good/evil axis and had had more time to drift further from the center of the cosmology. If good and evil, as concepts, came afterward, they would have had less time to fall away from the centerpoint. The rectangle might then be an accurate diagram of the early Wheel cosmology, before something drew it into a circle shape and formed the previously nonexistent outlands. This process might have been gradual, simply an equilibrium that it achieved over time, or perhaps something sudden, a symmetry breaking event that realigned the planes. Such an event might have been concurrent with the realignment of the Inner Planes. It could very well have happened around the time of the Battle of Pesh. Or maybe it happened when a critical mass of creatures in the multiverse became sentient, or evolved into humanoids. Not sure what to make of this really. It's something to think about.
Snarkbone 06-11-07, 09:28 AM	Oddly enough, checking my original AD&D Players Handbook, I notice that there was originally no plane of Concordant Opposition (not even by the name Outlands) in the Great Rectangle. Which leads me to believe it is a younger plane. Or an afterthought. Or at least something worthy of commentary. Come now Gray, that is terrible argument. I know you can do much better. Arguing about an in-game timeline of something based on it's order of in-source appearance is inherently flawed tactic. Because the sources are written for the sake of the game system, if you putting a new thing on the market (which is what the sources you referring to do) you don't want to waste time explaining a neutral plane, you probably don't even want to waste time of designing one at this point. Your drive is to provide something more direct and familiar, like good vs evil confrontation of heavens vs infernal forces. Swashbuckling and such. Not a philosophical round about wonderings. You can't even have a decently decisive conflict in Outlands, the area it is in will shift out of the plane to where it's more appropriate, like Chaos or Lawful plane, Good or Evil. Conflicts in Outlands are going nowhere, and you want new thing to be engaging and empowering to the players. In particular most children in schools get introduced to modern history (early 20th century) before they get to Ancient (at least in North American curriculum that's how it is). Doesn't mean it happened in that order.
MarkusTay63 06-11-07, 11:11 AM	Just checking my sources as well. The 1979 PH shows it IS rectangular, and places the Prime material in the center of it (along with the Inner Planes). However, the 1981 Deities and Demigods clearly shows the Plane of Concordant Opposition in the center. Since it preceded the Manual of the Planes by six years then credit must be given to James M. Ward and Robert J. Kuntz, the authors of said book. Even though they did get in a wee bit of trouble over three of the Pantheons... ;) Going back to the whole '9 Hells' and cosmology issue - I like to think of the Multiverse as a vast city. There are many different ways to get from one end to the other, with short-cuts and back-alleys, along with the major known routes. Each Crystal Sphere/Prime World is like a single neighborhood within this vast city. Think of them as Ghettoes - the people there think there culture is the best, and their way of looking at things is the right way. Locals would know about the 'back streets' to get from place to place, akin to the Great Tree or whatever applies to that world. People from 'out-of-town' have to take 'major highways' to get there. The locals might have a map of their neighborhood, while someone from outside would have a State Map, that is less detailed but still useful. Just because they are using different maps to get around doesn't mean either one of them are wrong. Since no one EVER actually sees the Wheel or the Tree or whatever, does it really matter how they picture it? Have you ever seen one of those ancient Roman maps of the Empire? They were elongated scrolls that were more like flowcharts then anything closely ressembling actual geography... yet they accurately depicted distances and direction, which is all the Romans really needed to get around. They are laughable by todays standards, yet they worked perfectly. Also, I like to take the Illusion/disbelief system to a whole new level. You can only be affected by, or use, what you believe in. In the Thomas Covenant novels, his greatest power was the ability to dis-believe what was happening to him. From a religous point of view, this would be called Faith. If you suddenly stopped believing in the Rainbow Bridge to Asgard, you would find yourself falling through space. I like to play with the idea that this is how magic works on some level. If you use the Matrix movies as an example, you do not try to bend the spoon with your mind, you first have to realize there is no spoon. The entire Prime Material is stabilized by peoples/Gods belief in it. By somehow 'tapping into' that belief we can alter reality. Nothing really changes, except how we perceive it. So the next time someone casts a fireball at you, just pretend it really isn't there. :D
ripvanwormer 06-11-07, 11:26 AM	However, the 1981 Deities and Demigods clearly shows the Plane of Concordant Opposition in the center. Since it preceded the Manual of the Planes by six years then credit must be given to James M. Ward and Robert J. Kuntz, the authors of said book. No. Although he wasn't credited in the book itself, Gary Gygax wrote that section (as he wrote in Dragon #73, where he apologized for the version of the para-elemental planes depicted there; that was the issue where he introduced the more modern system of 18 inner planes). Even though they did get in a wee bit of trouble over three of the Pantheons... They actually had permission from Fritz Lieber and Michael Moorcock, and didn't need permission from H.P. Lovecraft. The Blumes decided not to include the Moorcock and Lovecraft mythoi in future printings in order to avoid writing "Thanks to Chaosium" in the fronts, but there wasn't actually any substantial trouble with the first printing. If it had come to a court battle, Chaosium would have lost. There was never any trouble with the Lieber mythos, since that was licensed and Chaosium never claimed any rights to it.
MarkusTay63 06-11-07, 11:47 AM	Hmmmm.... I was always told that they got sued over it. Guess you can't believe everything you hear. I'm pretty sure they didn't get the license for the Fritz Leiber stuff until MUCH later, unless they just decided not to use it for something like ten years, which seems a little odd to me.
XHereticX 06-11-07, 09:11 PM	This stuff is...confusing. But I will use the tree for the pure reason it is canon. I suppose that old habits die hard and most realms authors cannot help but use old GW terms in their novels. I like Rip's ideas, matches the name of the setting. But still, my old problem remains, how do the fiends of the GT gain enough souls to sustain themselves from a finate universe?
Gray Richardson 06-11-07, 10:11 PM	Come now Gray, that is terrible argument. I know you can do much better. Arguing about an in-game timeline of something based on it's order of in-source appearance is inherently flawed tactic.Au contraire mon frére! You misapprehend the nature of my inquiry. I am not arguing for a position. Merely pointing out some intriguing facts and seeing what conclusions one might draw from them, if any. I think there is inherent value in exploring the various conceptions of the cosmology from its origins to its present form. After all, the Outer Planes are manufactured by belief, yes? Should we not take into consideration the beliefs of its creators at various stages of its evolution? For instance, demons have been around since the very first incarnation of D&D. They existed in print before all other outsiders except for genies and elementals (and lammasu and shedu and maybe kirin I believe--have to double check my white box pamphlets.) They even pre-date angels! Next came the devils and rakshasas in the Monster Manual. Still no angels. I think it interesting that the only celestials in the early universe were bestial, not yet humanoid. Hmmm... maybe have to double check Gods, Demigods and Heroes, come to think of it, they might have some sort of humanoid divine servitor. Daemons, angels and slaadi pop up in the Fiend Folio, and then the modrons and a bunch more fiends pop up in the 1e MMII. I think the fact that demons and elementals appeared first in D&D speaks strongly to the fact that they are so fundamental a concept. As such I feel strongly that this reflects the order in which they might have emerged in the early cosmos. Yugoloth propaganda to the contrary. ;) One might also conclude that Gygax's revising of the elemental planes reflects a metamorphosis, or a reifcation, that they underwent at some point in the early cosmos. I believe there are even in-game references to an ancient reordering of the elemental planes. While I can certainly understand why you might want to dismiss early maps of the cosmos as being irrelevant to our current "in-game" understanding of the planes, I find such maps as valuable as the ancient maps of Anaximander, Columbus, Balboa, and Vespucci in charting the evolving history of the planes. I think it is a mistake to say these maps have no lessons to teach us. I believe that there are indeed secrets vast and awesome waiting to be discovered therein. :detect:
ripvanwormer 06-11-07, 10:17 PM	I'm pretty sure they didn't get the license for the Fritz Leiber stuff until MUCH later, unless they just decided not to use it for something like ten years, which seems a little odd to me. They never stopped using the Fritz Lieber stuff; it's still there in my copy of Deities & Demigods, which doesn't have the Cthulhu or Melnibonean mythoi. They continued releasing Lankhmar modules throughout 1st edition, included the Nehwon mythos in 2nd edition Legends & Lore, and re-released the Lankhmar setting for 2nd edition (twice). While the Cthulhu and Melnibonean stuff was taken out of Deities & Demigods in order to avoid mentioning a competitor's name in it (which they probably didn't have to do, but Chaosium was claiming exclusive rights to those licenses and they didn't want to bother to fight a legal battle over it; Chaosium didn't want to fight over it either, so they agreed to let it rest as long as there was a line that said "Thanks to Chaosium for the use of the Melnibonean and Cthulhu mythoi"), the Nehwon mythos was never removed.
ShadezofDis 06-12-07, 10:16 AM	But still, my old problem remains, how do the fiends of the GT gain enough souls to sustain themselves from a finate universe? Because the GT isn't a finite universe, it's just one step removed from the Wheel. Or Because they don't need THAT many souls, perhaps they also gain power from the gods for services. "Hey Cyric, we'll make sure Mystra doesn't mess with you for a decade in exchange for X number of souls." Or Because they aren't under the same requirements the gods are, while they gain power from mortal souls they aren't chained to mortals in the same way gods are chained. Or Because Hags travel into the GT with caravans full o' souls from other worlds. Or Hmmm. . . I think I've run out of ideas. .. so, or something else entirely. :)
Snarkbone 06-12-07, 12:05 PM	I think it is a mistake to say these maps have no lessons to teach us. I believe that there are indeed secrets vast and awesome waiting to be discovered therein. :detect: They certainly have a lesson, but that lesson is in game design and out-of-setting metagaming. While an interesting study of real life game development for someone in an arts faculty, following your line of inquiry doesn't say anything about in-universe development. You can say sources mentioned demons before they mentioned devils. That is true and perhaps says something about psychology of game designers and intended audience. But unless the source that mentioned Devils (or demons) made a claim at a true (in a sense that it is the one and only truth of things) timeline of in-game events which would put Demons as predating Devils, we do not learn anything about the in-game universe. I think your line of thinking is very dangerous, for it complicates the events of an already complex cosmology with extraneous events, that truly have no bearing on in-game event. The true danger here is in the fact that you think you base your arguments on evidence. In truth, you don't have any evidence. More importantly we hit the issue of lore here. Unless there is lore that says how triangle got to be a wheel and how wheel got to be a tree (which I think is the case for the first transition between 1e and 2e, but not for 2e to 3e, since further digging revealed that Vecna story doesn't quite hold water, due to luck of lore directly corraborating universe shattering effect implied in the module) we can't conclude anything about the process, we can't even argue if it ever was a triangle or a wheel. We can't argue of why something happened in-game on the basis that Ed or someone else decided that's what it is in real life. There must be an in-game lore that explains the transformation. And there is no in game lore that clearly and definitively states how the planes came to be and in which order, with a synchronized and unified timeline. In other words, without a true record of creation (not a myth) that explains how things really happened, source analysis on the subject is useless and can only be detrimental.
Micheal_Roele 06-12-07, 12:54 PM	But still, my old problem remains, how do the fiends of the GT gain enough souls to sustain themselves from a finate universe? Its one of those things that was never thought of or cared about. Given the number of gods who claim souls, population on Aber-Toril, the Baatezu wouldn't generate enough souls to replace Lemures abused by the Pit Fiends on a given day, let alone field armies for the Blood War. The Devils come from souls primarily, they aren't spontaenously created like the Tanar'ri (with the exception of a couple types in FC III, and the ones from Asmodeus' blood, which reside in Nessus as his doomsday army.) Only Unique and a few Devil types reproduce (mostly Eriynes.) Souls are the economy of Hell, everything is based on acquiring them. Aber-Toril doesn't generate the soul quota they need, so they get it from other worlds as well. Its up to you the DM to reconcile how that occurs. Maybe other worlds are connected to the tree. I personally don't worry about it. I don't want to reconcile anything, dislike the Tree, so I ignore it and use the Great Wheel, which I have liked and used for 13+ years now.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 01:22 PM	They never stopped using the Fritz Lieber stuff; it's still there in my copy of Deities & Demigods, which doesn't have the Cthulhu or Melnibonean mythoi. They continued releasing Lankhmar modules throughout 1st edition, included the Nehwon mythos in 2nd edition Legends & Lore, and re-released the Lankhmar setting for 2nd edition (twice).Hmmmm... there was quite a long period of time as I recall between the actual Newhon modules and the release of the original Deities & Demigods, but I was suprised to find the Newhon Mythos in the back of my copy of 2nd Edition Legends & Lore, so I would have to assume you are correct. The second printing of the original 1e DD did NOT have the Melnibonean and Cthulhu mythos, but did it have the Newhon mythos? I don't have that tome, but a friend of mine did (years ago), and I remember him showing me his copy and I recall it missing all three. He tried to 'switch' copies of the books several times, so the incident sticks in my mind. @Gray - By your logic, then there should be some sort of 'cosmic reason' that the Demons and Devils started calling themselves Baatezu and T'anarri, and then later switched back, and now use both. ;) Bizarrly, I can actually come up with one. At some point in the recent past, an EXTREMELY powerful god of a monotheistic religion completely ousted all other gods from HIS Crystal Sphere, becoming BOTH the supreme god and Overgod of that Prime World. Quickly getting bored with his total control, and looking for a challenge, he called a Crusade against the fiends of the lower planes. His world was about the size of Jupiter, with a population approaching Ten Trillion, and he order ALL of his people to attack and destroy Demons and Devils EVERYWHERE. At first, this incredibly immense army caused many problems in the Abyss and the Baator, but the fiends soon discovered a solution. Zealots are incredibly STUPID. So after awhile, everytime a group of them went to attack a Demon, it said "sorry, I'm a T'anarri", and they left. Every time they went to attack a Devil, it said "Sorry, I'm a Baatezu", and they went looking for other prey. Eventually, the problem resolved itself because the inhospitable nature of the lower plains killed most of these people off, and the god himself became a lifeless husk floating in the Astral do to lack of worship. This is one of the few times in history when the Bloodwar came to a temporary halt, because the Fiends decided to get drunk and have a good laugh together over the stupidity of Mortals. How is that for 'reaching'?
ripvanwormer 06-12-07, 01:52 PM	The second printing of the original 1e DD did NOT have the Melnibonean and Cthulhu mythos, but did it have the Newhon mythos? Yes. It does. I have it in my hands as I'm writing this. That's the only version of Deities & Demigods that I own. The Nehwon mythos, unlike the Melnibonean and Cthulhu mythoi, was never removed. I also have a copy of Lankhmar: City of Adventure, a 1e module published in 1985.
ShadezofDis 06-12-07, 02:02 PM	In other words, without a true record of creation (not a myth) that explains how things really happened, source analysis on the subject is useless and can only be detrimental. I disagree. I think that source analysis is a great way to come up with ideas that are less arbitrary than liking Demons more than Devils. Further, if we go with the standard "The universe developed out of primordial chaos" theory then it stands to reason that Demons would come first. Which would be pretty ironic since the formation of the first Demon would constrain chaos to an extent. :) However, since we have no "hard lore" on this then all we have is conjecture. I really like conjecture because it helps "temper" personal theories on the cosmos. Last, but not least, I REALLY hope we never get "hard lore" on the creation of the planes (creation of reality?) because I really can't imagine it coming out in a way I find satisfactory. :)
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 02:03 PM	@Rip -Ah... Okay, then you have the same one my friend had. Thanks for the clarification, it's been over twenty years since I looked through that version. Last, but not least, I REALLY hope we never get "hard lore" on the creation of the planes (creation of reality?) because I really can't imagine it coming out in a way I find satisfactory. :)I concur. That's why I hold back my own theories to some extent, because they merge D&D, folklore, major RW religions, and Mythology all in one package. I figure that would make everyone happy, because it is so universal, but every time I reveal a piece of it I get into arguments about why I include such-and-such. Not knowing is better suited for us to tailor to our own campaigns.
ShadezofDis 06-12-07, 02:05 PM	@Gray - By your logic, then there should be some sort of 'cosmic reason' that the Demons and Devils started calling themselves Baatezu and T'anarri, and then later switched back, and now use both. ;) Or it could be a mortal interpretation of infernal languages. I'm not sure if that holds any water but unless there is lore that specifically makes this theory impossible then it's possible. :)
ShadezofDis 06-12-07, 02:17 PM	That's why I hold back my own theories to some extent, because they merge D&D, folklore, major RW religions, and Mythology all in one package. I figure that would make everyone happy, because it is so universal, but every time I reveal a piece of it I get into arguments about why I include such-and-such. Not knowing is better suited for us to tailor to our own campaigns. Yep, in fact I have my own theory that I've been developing and I'm really liking the way it's working out (though hardly any is actually written, that's my personal stumbling block ;)) but I think it's likely to be an angle that wouldn't be particularly popular. I'd be interested in checking out some of your theories if you've got them written up anywhere. :)
Snarkbone 06-12-07, 02:31 PM	I disagree. I think that source analysis is a great way to come up with ideas that are less arbitrary than liking Demons more than Devils. Well you don't really disagree then :) getting ideas and conjuring up explanations is part of the fun, it should be done, and it is a large part of the reason I visit these boards at all. What I'm saying is that while we can come up with a lot of explanations, all of it is homebrew in a sense that it is our own offshoot of FR, not true FR. We shouldn't try to claim our theories as pertaining to canon FR, for there is truly zero evidence to tie it together in a coherent and sensible way. We need more detailed lore before any of our theories can be argued as pertaining to FR, until then, we just make up stories for our own settings that are very like FR, based on FR, but not FR. Aside: While we on the subject of Hell and Abyss, can someone point me to some details about Primevil language spoken by Vecna and Lady of Pain, and is it related to Infernal languages of the lower planes.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 03:05 PM	I think I posted my 'Big Bang' in a core thread several months ago, but I don't remember which now. But I use the seven days from the Judaeo-Christian Bible, and tie it directly to Norse and Greek Mythology (easier then it sounds, because they really aren't all that different). In the beginning there was naught but Chaos, a infinite cosmic swirling soup known by many names to mortal beings. From this constantly shifting sea of energy and proto-matter arose a consciousness, but try as it might it could not distinguish itself from the primordial pool. Its thoughts were too hectic, too chaotic, and it could not fully grasp its own sentience. Then, after an infinite number of millenia (if such a thing could be before there was time), in a sudden burst of inspiration this new being cast out all chaotic thought from its own burgeoning consciousness and had a single clear thought for the first time - "I AM!" But in that moment of victory over the void, a second being was also formed from the chaotic thoughts released by the first being. And so, At the instant that structured thought was born, so to was the foundations of Chaos. This second being raged against the first, wishing to be assimilated back into it so that both could rejoin the nothing from which both had come. It Beat at the walls of the other's consciousness, and used the surrounding darkness as a weapon against the other, and the first being, THE ONE, grew angry. Feeling emotion for the first time, it seized upon some of the random energy flowing through the Void and thrust outward with all of its might. "Let there be Light" And in that moment, the darkness was pushed back. Still THE ONE shoved at the bleak night surrounding it, and still it was pushed back further. The Roiling Chaos that had once been a part of it recoiled at the bright glow of sameness, and retreated further into the Void. The One True God still continues to push its consciousness ever outward, expanding the universe, while it's 'twin' continues to flee before it. In this way, Chaos is part of the all, but still seperate from it. The pin-point of light that defines the One's consciousness is known as the bright center of the Universe, and now sits atop the Infinite Spire. The outer Darkness from whence all had come surrounds but forever retreats from it, and therin dwells the Lord of Chaos, in the region now known only as the Far Realm. Between the Darkness and the Light lies a thin band of twilight, known as the Plane of Shadow, touching all. Thats is just the beginning, and it goes on from there to create the Elder Gods, then the Titans (Jotuns), and finally the Deities we know. Deities are actually way down the chain of command when it comes to the 'powers', and are the only devine beings that directly interact with mortals (the rest concerning themselves with running the universe). The Elder Gods create the Great Wheel, after there is a battle amongst them, and also fashion the Prime Material from the body of Ymir. It leaves openings so that every religion and mythos can be accounted for in some way, because an infinite number of worlds are created within the Prime, each by a different set of gods (the 'architects' of the Prime material).
Gray Richardson 06-12-07, 03:07 PM	College of Wizardry had a lot about this language, although it was not clear if it was related to the words spoken by Orcus/Tenebrous The info about the words he used was in Dead Gods an Great Modron March
ShadezofDis 06-12-07, 03:27 PM	What I'm saying is that while we can come up with a lot of explanations, all of it is homebrew in a sense that it is our own offshoot of FR, not true FR. We shouldn't try to claim our theories as pertaining to canon FR, for there is truly zero evidence to tie it together in a coherent and sensible way. We need more detailed lore before any of our theories can be argued as pertaining to FR, until then, we just make up stories for our own settings that are very like FR, based on FR, but not FR. Ah, I got ya. More than fair enough. :) Though I don't know about your last sentence in the first quoted paragraph. Almost all of my "pet theories" work off of canon in, what I believe to be, a coherent and sensible way. Point in fact, the most fun I end up having with these types of theories is when canon seems to contradict itself. Figuring out a sensible reason for seeming canon contradictions is great fun. :)
XHereticX 06-12-07, 08:03 PM	Well Ed Greenwood himself said the GT universe consisted of what is detailed in Spelljammer's realmspace and unfrotunatly that means its canon. Well, after reading Elminster in Hell I noticed that FR hell had a more primal, raw-evil type of feel than GW hell. Also it seems like devils in the GT rarely even leave Baator. So I think devils just spontaneously respawn from Baator like demons do, just at a slower rate.
Micheal_Roele 06-13-07, 11:38 AM	Well Ed Greenwood himself said the GT universe consisted of what is detailed in Spelljammer's realmspace and unfrotunatly that means its canon. Well, after reading Elminster in Hell I noticed that FR hell had a more primal, raw-evil type of feel than GW hell. Also it seems like devils in the GT rarely even leave Baator. So I think devils just spontaneously respawn from Baator like demons do, just at a slower rate. That is your opinion, and I disagree. You can do what you want in your game, and that is every DM's right. "Elminster in Hell" is just a novel, not an RPG sourcebook. It doesn't confirm or deny that souls are used to make Devils that I know of. Spontaneously and Baator don't belong in the same sentence. Devils are about rule and control. Very few things are spontaneous in the Nine Hells. That is what separates them from the Demons. The Realms team didn't specify anything, so I assume it wasn't important to the designers, and they overlooked it, hence the gaping hole in how fiends repopulate in the Tree, based on the population of Aber-Toril. The major sources on fiends for 3rd edition is BoVD, FC I & II. FC II does have Forgotten Realms sidebars, but never mentioned that "all fiends are spontaneous." In fact it mentions how they barter with Petitioners waiting judgment with Kelevmor. Most Devils start as Lemures, which come from souls. Until something is published from the Realms that states otherwise, that is canon. There are only a few cases that they just spawn (Asmodeus' doomsday army from his blood, a few types in Baalzebul and Glasya's layers) but those are exceptions. So the question remains, you have a discrepency. Likely the DM will have to rule on this if it came up in game. If it does, tell you players they have better things to worry about...:) Perhaps more than one world is connected to the Tree. If a Realms expert can provide info on if other worlds are connected to the Tree, then the problem is solved. Devils would have plenty of souls to harvest.
Snarkbone 06-13-07, 12:29 PM	So the question remains, you have a discrepency. Likely the DM will have to rule on this if it came up in game. If it does, tell you players they have better things to worry about...:) Your quest for explanation of the apparent insufficiencies in the number of devils casts light on your inner faith in the underlying reason behind all things and laws that are the manifestations of these reasons, as well as your drive for understanding the laws that govern existence. However such questioning of the very foundation of the planes and sources of energies that make the existence of all things possible has consequences. These consequences are the potential to unravel the very fabric of the multiverse and bring about the doom of all. Your unceasing quest for the answer, and the clearly Lawful Evil outlook it represents, draws attention of the Nine. As you pore over the ancient tomes of planar lore in quiet contemplation in your library, you are startled by a sudden explosion to your left. Bloody smoke fills the room momentarily, and just as suddenly begins to dissipate. Before you, among the shreds of ancient tomes and other ruined implements of truth seeking, stands the Lord of Nine, Asmodeus. A slight shadow of a smirk crosses the face of the Master. His hand flows upwards in your direction with sublime grace and undeniable purpose. "Welcome to Hell, my child." As the remaining shreds of these words leave His mouth, in the flash of flaying pain, clawing madness, and helpless terror, so does your consciousness. The numbers are evergrowing... Player1: /wrists, re-roll barbarian max Str, min Int.
Micheal_Roele 06-13-07, 01:03 PM	I retract the post.
ShadezofDis 06-13-07, 01:11 PM	If I interpret your cutsey little story correctly, you are saying its some mystery of the cosmos that noone should explore. That is indeed the moral of the little story. Or at least that's my interpretation of it. Translation: Because it wasn't given serious thought by the designer, like the rest of the Great Tree it seems. Mystery of Cosmos Excuse = Lazy Thinking. You could have said it in fewer words, stated your point, and be a little less insulting. You're translation is pretty far off however. I believe it is supposed to be an in game story of what would happen to a player who is trying to discover this information. Not about you personally. IE. My 18th level wizard is trying to figure out how Hell gets the population it seems to have, this attracts the notice of Hell and is VERY BAD for my poor 18th level wizard's future.
Micheal_Roele 06-13-07, 01:29 PM	That is indeed the moral of the little story. Or at least that's my interpretation of it. You're translation is pretty far off however. I believe it is supposed to be an in game story of what would happen to a player who is trying to discover this information. Not about you personally. IE. My 18th level wizard is trying to figure out how Hell gets the population it seems to have, this attracts the notice of Hell and is VERY BAD for my poor 18th level wizard's future. Thanks ShadezofDis. I misunderstood. My apologies Snarkbone. I thought you were referring to me. Yes, that is a good DM way to handle it. The point isn't soul count isn't a big deal in the scheme of things. The DM can make it up. I was just making the point, it wasn't something they thought about switching from the Great Wheel to the Great Tree, like a great many things. I don't think I am wrong about the Great Tree being poorly thought out in relation to the history of the realms. I don't buy the "this was the way it always was", pull some lame comic book "Crisis of Infinite Earths" move, do a lame reset, when I have enough 1st and 2nd edition material that says otherwise. If they want to use the tree fine, but put some effort into it. If they aren't going to, then why bother to change from the Great Wheel. That is why I haven't in my games.
Snarkbone 06-13-07, 03:00 PM	My apologies Snarkbone. I thought you were referring to me. Yes, that is a good DM way to handle it. 'Tis all good, I hope my new addition at the bottom will help make the purpose clear. The point was that "in-game" if a player wondered where the high numbers come from, that scenario would be a very ironic way of increasing the numbers. As for the actual numbers, remember that devils don't really die on non-home plain and neither do demons, but devils have it a little better. Unlike Abyss where you can invade anywhere (in particular you can attack home plain of any demon), you can't enter lower levels of hell without conquering and reconsecrating (to chaos/good/ or whatever your alignment is, even if you server LE god you still have to reconsecrate from LE fiend to LE god) the higher level. And since Avernus was never taken, no devil of levels 2-9 has ever truly died, unless killed by another devil, which is rare since they are very lawful and promotion/demotion game is paramount, it is an extreme case that someone has to be actually killed. So only the devils of Avernus can truly die in the Blood War, anyone else fighting in it will just get reborn. And a few adventurers that do get to other layers don't really change things, considering they are few and far between, whereas devils are there for eons.
ripvanwormer 06-13-07, 06:44 PM	Devils assassinate one another all the time. It's one of their most efficient ways of getting promotions. Someone else has the job you want? Have him killed. It's legal, as long as they hire assassins through the proper channels. It's a major part of their culture.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 06:53 PM	I wonder... Could a Devil hire a Demon to assassinate another Devil? I know that there are Demons willing to work with anyone to further their goals (the whole 'chaotic' thing comes into play), but would a scheming Devil also be willing to bend the rules? Is there ANY (not just FR) instance of a Demon and a Devil working together? :confused:
XHereticX 06-13-07, 07:22 PM	I wonder... Could a Devil hire a Demon to assassinate another Devil? I know that there are Demons willing to work with anyone to further their goals (the whole 'chaotic' thing comes into play), but would a scheming Devil also be willing to bend the rules? Is there ANY (not just FR) instance of a Demon and a Devil working together? :confused: Only when they are forced to like in The Last Mythal trilogy.
Shemeska the Marauder 06-13-07, 07:55 PM	I wonder... Could a Devil hire a Demon to assassinate another Devil? I know that there are Demons willing to work with anyone to further their goals (the whole 'chaotic' thing comes into play), but would a scheming Devil also be willing to bend the rules? Is there ANY (not just FR) instance of a Demon and a Devil working together? :confused: Off the top of my head three biggies comes to mind: 1) The incident at Ghoresh Chasm, in which a Waste-quake opened a rift within the Waste and devoured a yugoloth city perched atop its lip, revealing a burning seal at the bottom of the crevice engraved with symbols of Law and Chaos as well as Evil. The seal itself suggested (via details we aren't privy to) that it could only be opened by the cooperation of the 'loths, tanar'ri and baatezu, and for only the second time in known history the Blood War paused. Representatives of all three sides came together to open the seal... and that's when a balor and a pit fiend went after one another over something as petty as taking the others' chair. The truce and nominal cooperation ended there and the seal remains intact and unexplained. 2) Bel's triple cross. While he was still only a pit fiend and had not yet ascended to unique status, Bel feigned defected to chaos. He was for a time accepted by the tanar'ri and actually led various tanar'ri armies in battle and inflicted heavy losses on his own kind before eventually betraying the tanar'ri at a crucial battle. Though Bel was never actually a traitor to the Baatezu, the tanar'ri believed he was, and despite his origins they accepted his prowess for a time being. I'd count that as cooperation. 3) Grazzt. Grazz't sees the Blood War as futile and seeks to end it eventually (of course he sees it end with himself ending up in charge mind you) and he views the upper planes as a more important target than the Baatezu. To this end he has attempted to reach out to the other side of the aisle (so to speak), usually through his children (especially Rule-of-Three).
ripvanwormer 06-13-07, 08:05 PM	The new issue of Dragon gives us another example: apparently (according to legend, anyway) the tanar'ri prince Astaroth managed to infiltrate Baator and get himself named Treasurer of Hell before Gargauth unmasked him and drove him back home to the Abyss. Eric L. Boyd wrote it, so it should have some extra weight in this forum.
Snarkbone 06-13-07, 08:18 PM	Devils assassinate one another all the time. It's one of their most efficient ways of getting promotions. Someone else has the job you want? Have him killed. It's legal, as long as they hire assassins through the proper channels. It's a major part of their culture. Again, there is death and there is death. FC:II is very careful to point out that devils scheme for promotions, and whatever they do they do it quietly, and since the greatest danger is in getting unmasked in the plot, so not many would do this on home plain under the watch of the bosses (FC's term). Most assassinations (or just throwing obstacles in the way, to ensure failure to achieve objective) are carried out elsewhere, where it can be misconstrued as a failed mission for the assassinated devil, thus granting demotion (true death won't follow, unless devil's Lord get personally ticked at the failure). True final death is a rarity. You named a bunch of the high profile killings, I'm sure there are more, hundreds, thousands, hundreds of thousands, but that's infinitesimal in the span of eons.
XHereticX 06-13-07, 08:42 PM	The new issue of Dragon gives us another example: apparently (according to legend, anyway) the tanar'ri prince Astaroth managed to infiltrate Baator and get himself named Treasurer of Hell before Gargauth unmasked him and drove him back home to the Abyss. Eric L. Boyd wrote it, so it should have some extra weight in this forum. Didn't Gargauth kill Astaroth and take his name?
ripvanwormer 06-13-07, 08:43 PM	Didn't Gargauth kill Astaroth and take his name? Yes. Later on. He waited for Astaroth to become a demigod, first.