Post/Author/DateTime	Post
baronjosefr 10-03-07, 01:07 PM	From everything I am seeing and reading, Ellistrae will probably overcome Lloth, and subsume her essence, as she did Vhaerhaun. Drizz't mentioned in the Orc King a rather unpleasant end to the "good" followers of Ellistrae. The wording is important. It implies evil followers as well, which she didn't have before. Already becoming darker, taking the folio of Vhaerhaun, doing the same with Lolth will push her over the edge. She may still have a goal to bring the drow to the surface, but it will instead be as conquerors, not to rejoin their surface cousins. Anyone agree, or disagree?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-03-07, 02:04 PM	If Eilistraee totally changes from what she was originally and becomes a "new Lolth", than as far as I'm concerned she'd be dead. She'd be Eilistraee in name only.
Markustay 10-03-07, 06:12 PM	I see Eilistraee dead and buried in 4e. Bear in mind that DotU was written with 4e in mind, and the author has told us she was 'forced' to include that little bit about there being NO other Drow gods in FR but Lolth. We are going back to the simpler setting of 1e, when all there was of the Elven gods was Corellon, Lolth, and Sashelas (and maybe Rillifane... I don't have my books with me). There is no room in the 'dumbed-down' 4e rules for gods of good Drow (which also won't exist in 4e - Drizzt is specifically considered an ELF in that spoiler, if you read carefully). So attention 14 year old Drizzt fanboys - 4e probably won't be for YOU either.
Zanan 10-03-07, 07:07 PM	Bear in mind that DotU was written with 4e in mind, and the author has told us she was 'forced' to include that little bit about there being NO other Drow gods in FR but Lolth. Where and when did she (?) say that? Edit: Heck ... just as I wrote the above, a spider crawled over my keyboard? Is she watching?
GothicDan 10-03-07, 07:15 PM	I got terrible blood poisoning from a spider when I was about 11-12. Maybe that's when I decided to like Elves...
johnkretzer 10-04-07, 02:10 AM	I think it is sorta sad really. They say they changing thing to allow for more storys...yet they killed one of the best stories in the game as a whole. Eilistraee fighting against her mother...for the souls of the frow...what new story does getting rid of her allows? That couldn't be told before? Also has what happened to Eilistraee has happened before? I mean becoming more like the god she killed? I mean when Cyric killed Leira(ignoring how dumb it was) did he become less evil? Or now that he killed Mystra is he going to become good? Or what about when Finder killed Moander he didn't shift in alignment...it doens't even make sense with how these things have been handled in the past. Then again I don't think the designers care about that...only caring about their vision.
Zanan 10-04-07, 04:02 AM	Well, there's still hope that the Spellplague (which shouldn't interact with the deities one their own planes et al) will shatter the sava board before the game concludes. There is no reason to have it all done suddenly by now, when we have enjoyed a rich tradition of FR drow deities for over two decades. If there was need for change, use the 150odd deities of the human pantheon. It even looks to me that the rather sudden assault by the dwarven deities was a last gasp appeasement for all those drow fans (i.e., NOT Drizzt fans) who had a problem with "their" deities being slaughtered left, right, and centre. I'd be quite upset if some designer decided to follow the rather strange outlook in DotUD (which not even follows in the footsteps of the even more strange Dragon 298) and reduce a whole pantheon to a single deity or two. For I would expect e.g. a massive cut-down in new spells and feats in future books too. Will that happen? You're having a laugh ...
strife_001 10-04-07, 04:42 AM	What about Mask and Shar, don't they both keep drow followers as well? (And I'm starting to wonder why Mask hasn't picked up Vaeraun's followers, Vaeraun was basicly a Mask shade)
Zanan 10-04-07, 04:56 AM	What about Mask and Shar, don't they both keep drow followers as well? (And I'm starting to wonder why Mask hasn't picked up Vaeraun's followers, Vaeraun was basicly a Mask shade) You're not alone here. Shar is no real option, IMHO. Drow want power and want it for good. Shar is a deity who wants the end of all things. Hardly a decent long-term choice for creatures living as long as drow.
GothicDan 10-04-07, 11:54 AM	But Shar isn't likely to TELL people she wants even THEM all dead. Or, at least, she wouldn't tell cultures as materialistic as the Drow. (And I'm not using materialistic negatively here - I think materialism is the way to go.)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-04-07, 01:43 PM	Also has what happened to Eilistraee has happened before? I mean becoming more like the god she killed? I mean when Cyric killed Leira(ignoring how dumb it was) did he become less evil? Or now that he killed Mystra is he going to become good? Or what about when Finder killed Moander he didn't shift in alignment...it doens't even make sense with how these things have been handled in the past. Then again I don't think the designers care about that...only caring about their vision. I agree. There doesn't seem to be that much of a precident for gods taking on the nature (positive or negative) of the gods from whom they've acquired portfolios.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-04-07, 01:46 PM	Well, there's still hope that the Spellplague (which shouldn't interact with the deities one their own planes et al) will shatter the sava board before the game concludes. There is no reason to have it all done suddenly by now, when we have enjoyed a rich tradition of FR drow deities for over two decades. Obviously, the FR design team doesn't think cutting out all those interesting deities will mean less opportunity for good stories (in fact, it somehow means there are MORE ideas for stories!).:rolleyes: We wouldn't want the setting to become ossified, would we?
Calmar 10-04-07, 02:39 PM	It even looks to me that the rather sudden assault by the dwarven deities was a last gasp appeasement for all those drow fans (i.e., NOT Drizzt fans) who had a problem with "their" deities being slaughtered left, right, and centre. What did the dwarven gods do?
ywhtptgtfo 10-04-07, 03:02 PM	The dwarven pantheon slaughtered the two duerger gods and then lost two of their own. It's like a very dumb plot element because outright invasion of planes are usually not allowed.
ripvanwormer 10-04-07, 07:29 PM	Drizz't mentioned in the Orc King a rather unpleasant end to the "good" followers of Ellistrae. The wording is important. It implies evil followers as well, which she didn't have before. Already becoming darker, taking the folio of Vhaerhaun, doing the same with Lolth will push her over the edge. She may still have a goal to bring the drow to the surface, but it will instead be as conquerors, not to rejoin their surface cousins. Anyone agree, or disagree? I think he referred to the "good" followers of Eilistraee simply because he couldn't assume that all the readers of the book would know who Eilistraee was, or that her followers were good. My interpretation is that Eilistraee is dead (or possibly imprisoned or otherwise incapacitated), and Lolth is the only goddess of the drow now. Lolth is a much more famous D&D figure, and it's much less likely they'll do away with her. Eilistraee, on the other hand, is often the subject of criticism, since "goddess of good drow" isn't exactly a job with a lot of demand. Drow are the only elven subrace with a pantheon all to themselves, anyway, and having a goddess that only caters to a tiny minority of them is even more extreme. Mind you, if it were up to me I'd keep all the deities, and add more. I happen to like Eilistraee, and Vhaeraun, and Kiaransalee and Selvetarm and all the others.
18DELTA 10-04-07, 08:55 PM	Erik Mona had this to say in an other forum. Back at Wizards of the Coast in 1999 there was a lot of talk about "firing the existing audience" of D&D with the third edition launch. The logic went like this: "Even if we have to fire all of our existing customers, so long as we replace those old customers with more new ones, the result will have been worth it." I hate to say it, but their trying to fire us. Nothing is going to happen to Eberron. That might change, but I doubt it. While the REALMS ARE GETTING NUKED! Open your eyes people, they(WotC)dont want us anymore.;) :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-04-07, 10:38 PM	Interesting, how a company would use that language ("firing" their customer base).
Calmar 10-05-07, 11:02 AM	I hate to say it, but their trying to fire us. Nothing is going to happen to Eberron. That might change, but I doubt it. While the REALMS ARE GETTING NUKED! Open your eyes people, they(WotC)dont want us anymore. "WHAT??? You... you are FIRING ME?! BUT MR WIZARDS?!! I'm working with your company for more than TWENTY YEARS now and I've always been a faithful supporter of your policy in the past years. You *can't* fire me now! I've a group of six players to feed!" :eek: :mad: :weep: :D (Ok, in reality I just play the game for five years, or so...;) )
Yazzuie 10-05-07, 02:22 PM	Interesting, how a company would use that language ("firing" their customer base). Well there kinda is a precedent in the Star Trek world. A certain writer for Next Generation was quoted in an article as saying that the old audiance could...uh, jump in a lake, he didn't need them. So I can't say as I'd be suprised if WoTC haven't said something along those lines...but I really hope not! As for killing off Eilistraee, here's my argument for keeping her. My players like to run a game that's as realistic as posible (given a fantasy setting). So you have a Drow player who doesn't want to be evil. Without Eilistraee the only elven god option would Corellon and his crew. Knowing what they did to your people, would you really want to worship them? I may not wish them ill, but I would have a very hard time trusting them to do what's in my best interest.
Crazygx34 10-05-07, 04:46 PM	I don't know all the story but it will be great if Lolth become Eilistraee. With a new body she will not be so bad.. Spider and sado-maso it not a great thing to teach for kids. It bad for old players who like Lolth since the begin but if they went to reach more new players it nothing better than a sexy long hair nude goddess.:)
johnkretzer 10-05-07, 05:14 PM	I don't know all the story but it will be great if Lolth become Eilistraee. With a new body she will not be so bad.. Spider and sado-maso it not a great thing to teach for kids. It bad for old players who like Lolth since the begin but if they went to reach more new players it nothing better than a sexy long hair nude goddess.:) Except that is not what is happening. Lolth is not becoming Eilistraee...Eilistraee is becoming Lolth. Also what is wrong with Spiders? I always liked spiders and never veiwed them as evil...shrug. Also if kids are learning about life from D&D then we have a greater problem than this.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 06:52 PM	Knowing what they did to your people, would you really want to worship them? Uh. Eilistraee is pretty much of a member of the Seldarine ("them") for all intents and purposes, and canon lore states that there ARE (present tense) Dark Elven clergy of Corellon. :)
Yazzuie 10-05-07, 07:06 PM	Eilistraee is pretty much of a member of the Seldarine ("them") for all intents and purposes, and canon lore states that there ARE (present tense) Dark Elven clergy of Corellon. :) That I was not aware. What cannon lore are you referring to?
GothicDan 10-05-07, 07:13 PM	Demihuman Deities states it. :) Also: Darahl Firecloak, a demigod of fire and earth magic among the Seldarine, also has Dark Elven clergy. They're very small in number, but they're there. He has a past with having been tricked and such by Lolth in the past, and is currently LN in alignment.
Crazygx34 10-05-07, 10:23 PM	Except that is not what is happening. Lolth is not becoming Eilistraee...Eilistraee is becoming Lolth. Also what is wrong with Spiders? I always liked spiders and never veiwed them as evil...shrug. Also if kids are learning about life from D&D then we have a greater problem than this. Like a say I don't have read the book yet . I really don't like insect. But I like the spiders Riders.:) Yes I don't think spiders are evils to. They are good friend against lesser insect. But they are ugly. It just my opinion spiders are ugly and Lolth was once an elves and I think she ugly. Eilistraee is more my type. If she become Lolth it bad and don't want to see her looking like Lolth. If she absord the evil of Lolth I don't think she can take over the will of Lolth and it will be a mirror effect and Lolth will become Eilistraee. Or Eilistraee become Lolth that sound almost the same to me... I'm curious what it greater problem for kid? :confused:
johnkretzer 10-05-07, 10:43 PM	Like a say I don't have read the book yet . I really don't like insect. But I like the spiders Riders.:) Yes I don't think spiders are evils to. They are good friend against lesser insect. But they are ugly. It just my opinion spiders are ugly and Lolth was once an elves and I think she ugly. Eilistraee is more my type. If she become Lolth it bad and don't want to see her looking like Lolth. If she absord the evil of Lolth I don't think she can take over the will of Lolth and it will be a mirror effect and Lolth will become Eilistraee. Or Eilistraee become Lolth that sound almost the same to me... Personaly I think both goddes has a place and the conflict between them should be kept vewcause I like it'sa effect on the Realms. I'm curious what it greater problem for kid? :confused: That was in refernce to.... Spider and sado-maso it not a great thing to teach for kids. If kids are learning about thing from D&D in isloation to parents, family members, and teachers then we have a larger problem in that kids aren't be raised right if they can mix a game with real life.
Crazygx34 10-05-07, 11:07 PM	It true john the that I great burden. I remember it the begins in the 90 they was talking of d&d real players . Player played it for real and some comit suicide and thing like it. That was a real bad reputation for the game.. And yes that the best way. I think more deity it great because the diversity of race, alignements and society no one think the same and act the same reducing deity like Eilistraee or lolth it a real scar in the drow pantheon. And I just read a post of mystra dying what I joke... She almost the pantheon by herself... I don't know what the next story will be aliens invasion or attack from the twilight zone...
johnkretzer 10-06-07, 01:42 AM	It true john the that I great burden. I remember it the begins in the 90 they was talking of d&d real players . Player played it for real and some comit suicide and thing like it. That was a real bad reputation for the game.. And yes that the best way. I think more deity it great because the diversity of race, alignements and society no one think the same and act the same reducing deity like Eilistraee or lolth it a real scar in the drow pantheon. And I just read a post of mystra dying what I joke... She almost the pantheon by herself... I don't know what the next story will be aliens invasion or attack from the twilight zone... My guess is the Cyric will kill all the other gods except Shar who will become his concubine. Take over the Realms and the PCs will be the last good forces fighting the inevitable victory of evil...Why? Because it is Cyric the first GDPC.
Todesherr 10-06-07, 07:39 AM	Much simpler: Lolth vs. Ellistrae for the Drow..finish.
SCMrks 10-06-07, 09:49 AM	It has been mentioned that Corellion is a fey god in the new edition. Elves are more related to fey. And doesn't the new podcast about monsters state that drow don't like working with "other" fey. So I think drow will be a dark fey race like the shadar-kai and can follow fey gods.
Calmar 10-06-07, 01:25 PM	I always felt the seelie fey as described in the fey feature were how elves should be; mystical and bound to nature.
Andyr 10-07-07, 08:50 AM	You're not alone here. Shar is no real option, IMHO. Drow want power and want it for good. Shar is a deity who wants the end of all things. Hardly a decent long-term choice for creatures living as long as drow. The Lady Penitent novels mention that a few of Vhaeraun's worshippers have turned to Shar. (Though I agree that doesn't make it a decent long-term choice for them!)
18DELTA 10-07-07, 04:11 PM	In the recent pod cast didnt they say that the Drow were fey too?;) So may be Lolth is now the Queen of Air and Darkness, in the Unseelie Court?:cool:
Knightsword 10-09-07, 12:47 AM	Where and when did she (?) say that? Edit: Heck ... just as I wrote the above, a spider crawled over my keyboard? Is she watching? DotU was written with Grayhawk in mind. As the info in the book refers to such things as the Temple of Elemental Evil. Also the context of the book is written with a Lolth worshiping slant so take it as you will. This is what was wrote in DotU (pg.15): If drow life and culture are driven by a single force, it must be their faith. The drow are pantheistic in only the loosest sense of the word. Humans worship a variety of deities equally. Elves revere Corellon Larethian above all others, but their religion is replete with other deities that are nearly as important. But for the drow, there is only Lolth. This comes as a surprise to many scholars, who believe the drow pantheon to consist or multiple deities. This is particularly true in the Forgotten Realms setting, where entities such as Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun appear in drow religious practice. But these deities, no matter how strongly an individual drow might revere them, are secondary at best, bearly visible in the shadow of the Spider Queen. The drow honor them, but they do not consider them true gods and do not worship any of them with the same devotion--or fear them half as deeply--as they do Lolth. It is she, and she alone, who stands as the heart of drow religion.
MarkusTay63 10-09-07, 01:32 AM	I hate to say it, but their trying to fire us.Like I tell any 'boss' when they try that - "You CAN'T fire me... I QUIT!!!!" :P The truth of it is that I expected this all along. They did it when they nuked GH and they wanted everyone to switch to FR or just 'go away'. Now they are doing it again. :( All I can do now is warn kids that in 20 years it will be their setting on the chopping block, when the brighter, shinier 'new and improved' setting comes down the pipe. I think they screwed themselves this time, though. With D20 we don't only have to jump-settings, we can jump companies as well. Mony Cook's stuff is looking better and better... and then there's Castlemourn by Ed... so much goodness out there... :smirk:
Straploknight 10-09-07, 01:56 AM	I see Eilistraee dead and buried in 4e. Bear in mind that DotU was written with 4e in mind, and the author has told us she was 'forced' to include that little bit about there being NO other Drow gods in FR but Lolth. We are going back to the simpler setting of 1e, when all there was of the Elven gods was Corellon, Lolth, and Sashelas (and maybe Rillifane... I don't have my books with me). There is no room in the 'dumbed-down' 4e rules for gods of good Drow (which also won't exist in 4e - Drizzt is specifically considered an ELF in that spoiler, if you read carefully). So attention 14 year old Drizzt fanboys - 4e probably won't be for YOU either. Ahhh. one of my most prized possessions, 1st Ed Deities & Demigods (includes Melnibonean mythos, and the most kick arse Grummsh pic ever!), anyways you are correct, Corellon, Deep Sashalas, Lolth, and Rillifane
johnkretzer 10-09-07, 02:21 AM	Die 4ED, DIE!!! Die in your miserable money sucking failure! Die 4ED DIE! I have rarely agreed with you GEV, and well still don't for the most part but I am starting to see your point...if there is anything that will turn me off of 4th edition faster is that it is being used as the bullet that killed the Old Realms...
Zanan 10-09-07, 04:12 AM	@ Knightsword ... rest assured, I very well know that DotUD was written for Greyhawk. As was that Dragon. The PrC, feats, and spells are fine, the background pretty useless for any FR campaign. That said, the way the Lady Penitent trilogy goes, deiicide et al, it looks like they rather follow the deity outline in that Greyhawk (a soon unsupported campaign setting) book than using the decently structured and detailed Demihuman Deities version of the drow pantheon. Soon, we will see a half-spider abomination again, leering over blood-soaked altars, spilling tiny little spiders with every word and appearing half-mad to any casual onlooker. If that's not a break in FR tradition, I have no clue what is.
Alediran 10-09-07, 10:08 AM	@ Knightsword ... rest assured, I very well know that DotUD was written for Greyhawk. As was that Dragon. The PrC, feats, and spells are fine, the background pretty useless for any FR campaign. That said, the way the Lady Penitent trilogy goes, deiicide et al, it looks like they rather follow the deity outline in that Greyhawk (a soon unsupported campaign setting) book than using the decently structured and detailed Demihuman Deities version of the drow pantheon. Soon, we will see a half-spider abomination again, leering over blood-soaked altars, spilling tiny little spiders with every word and appearing half-mad to any casual onlooker. If that's not a break in FR tradition, I have no clue what is. A TSK (Total setting kill)
MarkusTay63 10-09-07, 02:33 PM	DotU was written with Grayhawk in mind. As the info in the book refers to such things as the Temple of Elemental Evil. Also the context of the book is written with a Lolth worshiping slant so take it as you will. @ Knightsword ... rest assured, I very well know that DotUD was written for Greyhawk.Okay, so you made me go back to the original thread (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=848856&page=9&highlight=Drow+of+the+Underdark) (very long) and find the quotes you were looking for. I was only partially right, She was told to focus on Lolth in the guide, to the exclusion of other Drow deities. Re-reading the exact post I realize she was talking about two different things - first WotC's desire for her to only include Lolth-based lore, and secondly her addressing the worrisome passage from the book. Here is the original post by the author. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=12514879&postcount=266) She does not deny the possibility that WotC had the death of the other FR Drow deities in mind, only her own knowledge of such clandestine plans. ;) So yeah, my comment about her being forced to say the FR Drow gods were all dead was a bit ill-conceived. BTW, while we are on the Drow subject - one of my pet theories about the 4e world changes concerns the Sundering, and the reversal of said High Magic Ritual. If you read the vingette in the GHotR, the Weave is maintaining the history-changing magic, so there is a chance everything will revert to the original history when the weave dissolves. So, that means the Descent Curse may have NEVER happened! :eek: Who knows? In 4e we may just get Dark Elves back, and leave the Drow back in GH. I noticed something else peculiar as well - several times the pre-descent Drow are referred to as the 'Deep Elves'. I don't remember this term appearing before - could it be a prelude to the type of subterranean dark Elf we will see in the future FR?
Asgetrion 10-09-07, 02:40 PM	Where and when did she (?) say that? Edit: Heck ... just as I wrote the above, a spider crawled over my keyboard? Is she watching? I might be repeating myself, but I think Drizzt more or less notes (in 'The Orc King') that "I witnessed the rise and fall of the goodly followers of Eilistraee..." and "Where are those benevolent gods nows?". Besides, I have a suspicion that Eilistraee won't fit the "fey" (and "evil") image of the 4E drow, and that is why she will be eliminated from the FR Pantheon (i.e. because 4E is about "simplifying" things). There might also be reasons concerning the game mechanics, too (i.e. "Divine Courts" consisting of Greater Powers and their Demipower servitors -- and I couldn't ever see Eilistraee serving Lolth).
Zanan 10-09-07, 06:22 PM	@ MarkusTay63 .. thanks for that link. @ Asgetrion ... you know that you paint a horror scenario?! ... because 4E is about "simplifying" things If 4E is about that, the FR will indeed face up to a slow but steady decline. It could well be that Hasbro et al have asked for sizing down the Realms to a managable level, managable with the staff WotC has right now. For the demand on updates of various aspects of the setting has been great (don't we all still wait for an update or a second part of Faiths & Pantheons?) but the workload for the designers has been too great or return from those books published too low to justify that grand a setting? Pure speculation of course, but that is what you end up with if only scraps of info are given to the customer. If people want a simpler Realms, they can very easily switch over to Eberron. Far fewer deities (up to now) and less detailed (up to now).
johnkretzer 10-10-07, 01:21 AM	So, that means the Descent Curse may have NEVER happened! :eek: Who knows? In 4e we may just get Dark Elves back, and leave the Drow back in GH. I noticed something else peculiar as well - several times the pre-descent Drow are referred to as the 'Deep Elves'. I don't remember this term appearing before - could it be a prelude to the type of subterranean dark Elf we will see in the future FR? That might be what saves Eilistraee...if they dark elves comeback in some number...though I think those faithful to Lolth will remain drow...and those who are faithful to Eilistraee( or other gods as Drizzt is I would like him so much better if he went for the worship of Eilistraee atleast he wouldn't have to kill every drow he meets...actualy I would love to hear that meeting between him a priestess of Eilistraee) would become dark elves...thus Eilistraee would some what accomplish her goal and could be welcomed back to the Seldarin...serving under Corellion(sp?) trying to get the rest of the drow to convert to transform them...mmm Even if they don't go with it I might make it it canon in my Realms. About Drizzt's comments from the orc King...they also say Drizzt doesn't know <insert bad word> about the Realms...
Ramenth 10-10-07, 02:08 AM	I see Eilistraee dead and buried in 4e. Bear in mind that DotU was written with 4e in mind, and the author has told us she was 'forced' to include that little bit about there being NO other Drow gods in FR but Lolth. We are going back to the simpler setting of 1e, when all there was of the Elven gods was Corellon, Lolth, and Sashelas (and maybe Rillifane... I don't have my books with me). There is no room in the 'dumbed-down' 4e rules for gods of good Drow (which also won't exist in 4e - Drizzt is specifically considered an ELF in that spoiler, if you read carefully). So attention 14 year old Drizzt fanboys - 4e probably won't be for YOU either. I, for one, fully expect to see Elf as a class rather than a race in 5E, given the direction we seem to be moving in.
Zanan 10-10-07, 04:15 AM	I, for one, fully expect to see Elf as a class rather than a race in 5E, given the direction we seem to be moving in. That's what they did in the German counterpart of D&D, DSA (Das Schwarze Auge / The Black Eye). Horrible, utterly horrible. You get various races (elfes and special humans) alongside normal "classes". And with that, certain character paths rather than classes, paths only possible for certain races, while others are totally excluded. No problem having HD-based abilities and specials for races, but treat them like classes would bomb D&D back into the Iron Age of RPG.
Suin Bahhar 10-10-07, 08:54 AM	That might be what saves Eilistraee...if they dark elves comeback in some number...though I think those faithful to Lolth will remain drow...and those who are faithful to Eilistraee( or other gods as Drizzt is I would like him so much better if he went for the worship of Eilistraee atleast he wouldn't have to kill every drow he meets...actualy I would love to hear that meeting between him a priestess of Eilistraee) would become dark elves...thus Eilistraee would some what accomplish her goal and could be welcomed back to the Seldarin...serving under Corellion(sp?) trying to get the rest of the drow to convert to transform them...mmm Even if they don't go with it I might make it it canon in my Realms. Interesting. I would like such an event too. And too add a little edge I would make them fall... They would fall back into old habits when confronted with the surface struggles and surfacer stigma. Eventually the Eilistraeans will fail to reestablish Illityir (either by internal strife caused by a reawakened Vhearaun or strong opposing sunelf and allied forces) and scatter. Miyeritar could be a succes story of the return of reemerging drow. Working with the Sharn and the allies in Cormanthor they hold out and try to rebuild the ancient ways of the Dark Elven customs and splendor.
Zanan 10-10-07, 09:09 AM	Miyeritar could be a succes story of the return of reemerging drow. Working with the Sharn and the allies in Cormanthor they hold out and try to rebuild the ancient ways of the Dark Elven customs and splendor. A bit of Blackstaff spoilery ... on the sharn The sharn, it appears from that novel, were / are former inhabitants of one of the great cities of Miyeritar. They transformed themselves / were transformed into sharn shortly before the Dark Disaster struck. Almost all transformed back when said city was raised again, only the former dark elves remained in sharn-form, as they feared that Corellon's Curse would turn them into drow. Should the theory above happen, there would be no "Descent", so to speak, no "drow" and thus, these last sharn would transform back into dark elves too. That said, I have no clue whether all sharn (as described in Monsters of Faerūn) were actually former Miyertari.
Suin Bahhar 10-10-07, 09:45 AM	A bit of Blackstaff spoilery ... on the sharn The sharn, it appears from that novel, were / are former inhabitants of one of the great cities of Miyeritar. They transformed themselves / were transformed into sharn shortly before the Dark Disaster struck. Almost all transformed back when said city was raised again, only the former dark elves remained in sharn-form, as they feared that Corellon's Curse would turn them into drow. Should the theory above happen, there would be no "Descent", so to speak, no "drow" and thus, these last sharn would transform back into dark elves too. That said, I have no clue whether all sharn (as described in Monsters of Faerūn) were actually former Miyertari. Yeah and even if they would still remain as sharn they do hold a (collective) memory of culture, songs and customs of darkelves including the high level magics the dark elves used. Are these sharn fettered to Miyeritar or can they travel Fearun as they like? Would the reverted dark elves have enough numbers for a viable population to defend Miyeritar against the inevitable onslaught of Miyeritari enemies? A single Sharn holds several entities and personalities, right?
Ramenth 10-10-07, 11:44 AM	Orc King Spoilers I personally thought R.A's mention that Elistraee failed was just his own way of getting a dig in at the gods he didnt like. I mean, realistically, he's never used Elistraee at all, despite how long Drizzt has been out-and-about now. He should've had her show up as more than a ploy by an evil drow at least once, you'd think. I always assumed it was just his way of sortof being... 'In before people add lore I don't want to my story cannon' rather than 'this is the god written truth of the realms'. It wouldnt be the first time some of his lesser details have been questionably cannonical at best.
Calsan 10-10-07, 11:55 AM	I would rather keep Eilistraee in her current format as the Masked Lady as it can both contain female and male worshippers the lore of the Lady Penance book 2 confirms that males are clerics too. A major flaw in her godhood before. For instance a male comes into contact with a Eilisstraeen FEMALE cleric and wants to become a cleric: Female Cleric: "Well, you can become one of the guardians of our temple, but our Goddess doesn't allow males in the clergy." . Potential worshipper and cleric: "Screw this, I left the Underdark to come to the light and I'm still under a Mariachi? What about equality and such? I'm worshiping The Masked Lord then atleast he allows Males..." Like I said a major flaw in Eilistraee's mission to bring the Drow to the light...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-10-07, 02:07 PM	Orc King Spoilers I personally thought R.A's mention that Elistraee failed was just his own way of getting a dig in at the gods he didnt like. I mean, realistically, he's never used Elistraee at all, despite how long Drizzt has been out-and-about now. He should've had her show up as more than a ploy by an evil drow at least once, you'd think. I feel the same way. Eilistraee and her followers make Drizzt seem less special.
Keahi19 10-10-07, 05:34 PM	Sigh, I always thought the drow had such potential as villians. But, they always fight eachother to the death. That's why I liked Vhaerun. THe drow would be deadly if they were more of a lawful evil race than a chaotic one. Now that they might be Eilistrae's Lolthian ideal. God what a bore. ANd yeah the good part of Vhaerun was his equality. He appealed to more drow that way. Sigh... well good thing in my world he's still around.
Zanan 10-11-07, 05:43 PM	Regarding the Sharn ... I do not know. I guess I have to dig up the Menzo box/Ruins of Undermountain (?) and Monsters of Faerūn again, or one can simply ask the author of the novel?
MarkusTay63 10-11-07, 07:25 PM	Steven Schend has said, I believe over at CK, that we should expect some answers in the sequel, and that we should all be keeping an eye on whats behind Kraanfhaor's Door. I'm lookng forward to some MAJOR wish-fulfillment, here. ;)
Suin Bahhar 10-11-07, 07:34 PM	I definiately need to pick up Schends Blackstaff and the upcoming followup (Blacktower?). All things about predescent elves intrigues me and I want to join the bookclub at candlekeep as soon as possible.
Ramenth 10-11-07, 10:17 PM	I would rather keep Eilistraee in her current format as the Masked Lady as it can both contain female and male worshippers the lore of the Lady Penance book 2 confirms that males are clerics too. A major flaw in her godhood before. For instance a male comes into contact with a Eilisstraeen FEMALE cleric and wants to become a cleric: Female Cleric: "Well, you can become one of the guardians of our temple, but our Goddess doesn't allow males in the clergy." . Potential worshipper and cleric: "Screw this, I left the Underdark to come to the light and I'm still under a Mariachi? What about equality and such? I'm worshiping The Masked Lord then atleast he allows Males..." Like I said a major flaw in Eilistraee's mission to bring the Drow to the light... Agreed. Plus the new Eilistraee is much more interesting in terms of goals. Before hand Eilistraee felt too... generically good. She was all "My goal is to bring Drow to the light. Run evil doer, for in the name of the moon, I will punish you." It was a good way to set her self up as a little known opposition to Lolth; but its a boring view point in the long run. The Masked Lady is much more... conflicted, you could say. She's not as pure at all. I like her being somewhat evil, or at least not pure good.
Zanan 10-12-07, 06:49 AM	I would rather keep Eilistraee in her current format as the Masked Lady as it can both contain female and male worshippers the lore of the Lady Penance book 2 confirms that males are clerics too. A major flaw in her godhood before. For instance a male comes into contact with a Eilisstraeen FEMALE cleric and wants to become a cleric: Female Cleric: "Well, you can become one of the guardians of our temple, but our Goddess doesn't allow males in the clergy." . Potential worshipper and cleric: "Screw this, I left the Underdark to come to the light and I'm still under a Mariachi? What about equality and such? I'm worshiping The Masked Lord then atleast he allows Males..." Like I said a major flaw in Eilistraee's mission to bring the Drow to the light... Not a flaw. She was like that from the word "Go", as I explained before. When she came about, she was a Seldarine goddess of hunters, the moon and the like - apparently more like Diana than her FR-human counterparts Mielikki (Finnish origin) or Selūne (Greco-Roman). When she went into the exile along with the evil drow deities, she retained that notion ... and there is nothing from stopping males venerate her as worshippers in all aspects but divine casters. Romans of every gender venerated Diana (and a number of other female-only deities) with great fervor, no problem whatsoever. As for Vhaeraun, he is not for gender equality either. Take a close look at sources and novels alike and uncover that dogmatic lie in no time. He and his folk "want a return to the natural state of order" (as if there is one natural state of order :rolleyes: ), and thus nothing but a return of patriachy instead of matriarchy. No thanks. I'd rather have Mask or the like who do not care whatsoever when it comes to gender stuff. Much of the Faerūnian clergy and society is patriarchic anyway, no need to cull those few who are not, including the drow as such.
Sir Aurik 10-12-07, 08:21 AM	The dwarven pantheon slaughtered the two duerger gods and then lost two of their own. It's like a very dumb plot element because outright invasion of planes are usually not allowed. Umm, wow. Where and when did this happen?
johnkretzer 10-12-07, 03:47 PM	Agreed. Plus the new Eilistraee is much more interesting in terms of goals. Before hand Eilistraee felt too... generically good. She was all "My goal is to bring Drow to the light. Run evil doer, for in the name of the moon, I will punish you." It was a good way to set her self up as a little known opposition to Lolth; but its a boring view point in the long run. The Masked Lady is much more... conflicted, you could say. She's not as pure at all. I like her being somewhat evil, or at least not pure good. I disagree I saw as a goddess who is pure because she sacrficed her place in heaven so that her people wouldn't be left in the darkness. Also I don't considered pure good to be boring...or even unrealistic especialy in a deity. Also there is nothing inherently evil about a matriacrchy. Is it fair not really, but then again life isn't fair. Also it is like saying that well a matriachy must be evil like Lolth's because woman can't do better. Also I would like to see it to grow into a more equal religion though natural growth not because she killed her brother and absorbed his alledge sex equailty veiws. ( Which if you have read the souces he encourages the breeding of half-drow(due to their abilty to perform better in sunlight) by capturing women for breeding stock, or even Drow females for to increase his worshipper base). Also he is definitly a racist in believeing drows are better than anybody else....so it is ok not to be sexist but ok to be racist?
Bonzai 10-12-07, 04:50 PM	I have been predicting that Eilistraee is going to go down, after the first book in the trilogy. After reading the 2nd, I am even more sure of it. My hope, is that Eilistraee's sacrifice allows the Drow a chance at redemption, and the ability to be welcomed back to the Seladrine. At least the ones with a genuine desire to return to the light.
Straploknight 10-12-07, 06:10 PM	Also he is definitly a racist in believeing drows are better than anybody else....so it is ok not to be sexist but ok to be racist? Sure, Vhaeruan is a reflection of his followers, most drow believe themselves superior to other races by dint of thier better attributes, physical appearence, unique powers and thier society(questionable I know, but look at it from there perspective). You do them a diservice when you expect the drow to behave in a fair manner.
johnkretzer 10-13-07, 12:30 AM	Sure, Vhaeruan is a reflection of his followers, most drow believe themselves superior to other races by dint of thier better attributes, physical appearence, unique powers and thier society(questionable I know, but look at it from there perspective). You do them a diservice when you expect the drow to behave in a fair manner. Sure, well except Eilistraee doesn't have that. Her faith is open to all races. Also Vhaeruan is just as sexist as Lolth. Which was my point. He just hides it better.
danyew 10-13-07, 10:37 AM	Put it this way, Lolth is definitely(99.9% chance) gonna survive the battle against Eilistraee since the sava board game was meant to be a game played to death and Eilistraee simply doesn't stand a chance since D&D creators would definitely favour Lolth over Eilistraee( how are they suppose to answer if lolth was killed on faerun and still continued to survie on the other planes?) besides the fact that Lolth is more popular and a greater representation of the drow race. That said, the rise of the good and neutral aligned dark elves as a separate category from the drow would give rise to greater implications should Eilistraee perish,after all...they detest lolth and chose to follow a different deity for mostly that reason and the fact that Eilistraee's blood(Mother's Blood) flows in their veins.Well, then again,they could probably follow Sehanine Moonbow or Selune,closely related moon goddesses just as some of the drow have began to follow Shar. (Although I still have absolutely no idea why the vhaerun-worshipping drow in Ssamanth(or whatever its called) would choose to venerate shar over mask after vhaerun was "killed" by Eilistraee, considering that mask has a potfoilio almost similar to that of vhaerun)
Zanan 10-13-07, 12:31 PM	Sure, well except Eilistraee doesn't have that. Her faith is open to all races. Also Vhaeruan is just as sexist as Lolth. Which was my point. He just hides it better. Well, Eilistraee is also sexist, if you want to call it like that. As for being racists, that's not something to value drow upon. You see, take dragons, yuan-ti, githyanki, aboleths, beholders or illithids, they all fall into the same category, not to mention devils and demons. And yes, they are "monsters", much like the drow. Sshamath ... that is a wrong impression. It is not a place of Vhaeraun worshippers. It is dominated by the Mage Schools in a way that usually the ruling Houses do. Religion is not an important matter and thus various cults could grew. The one of Shar was introduced by some Shadow Weave folk, under the wary eye of the Colleges, as was one of Wild Magic (in AD&D times). Vhaeraun had a temple, much like Lolth - who's faith dominates now, religion-wise.
Selvarin 10-16-07, 03:08 AM	They've shown no hesitancy in killing off gods, so Eilistraee is in the crosshairs. But from what I've seen the LP series is as much about Eilsitraee's own character as it is about wiping other drow deities off the table. Lolth hasn't changed at all, Eilsitraee has. So perhaps she'll be more 'fey' in 4e (if she survives) as has been pointed out. And it could well be that one claims the surface, the other the darkness below. With a new game to start. But it still comes down to a gamble both Lolth and Eilistraee have made with mortals: 1) Halisstra. 2) Q'arlynd. For a start. Eilistraee's final fate will be decided by Halisstra's actions in all likelihood, and thus the fate of those who oppose Lolth by following the daughter. Btw, in 4e drow become more playable as PC's so would it be logical to cut out a choice many want to have--a PC drow worshipping a good drow deity--or to merely reposition that deity? Of course, what I call logic is just opinion.
Zanan 10-16-07, 05:03 AM	Well, in many respects, Lolth and her priestesses have taken on a very Greyhawkian look in the LP novels - as opposed to e.g. WotSQ VI. Maybe that was intended, but at that sava boards she simply oozes spiders, every word she says is accompanied with a gush of spiders from her mouth (I wonder how her pronunciation is affected), spiders crawl all over her etc. ... while the one instance that a wizard from Sshamath shows the temple of Lolth in Menzo (we can all scry in there, as usual) he chooses the exact moment when an oh-so-evil priestess whips a oh-so-poor drow male CHILD to death for no other reason than him stumbling to the ground and not getting up in time. (Yep, that's why the drow need to reproduce so fast ... or why they never manage to attain past (Ilythiiri) glory. :rolleyes: ) One might say that there's an agenda here.
Selvarin 10-16-07, 02:34 PM	Perhaps by the end of the LP series she'll become a more motherly (albeit still wicked) goddess and some of that insanity will stop. Perhaps she'll even take pity on Eilistraee, figuring the final win was pleasure enough, and send her on her way instead of just killing her outright. The only thing I count on is in not knowing until that last book comes out. :gah:
Zanan 10-16-07, 07:05 PM	There's hope that Spellplague sets in after Lolth takes on Ghaunadaur and the game ends in a "draw". Lolth keeps the "monster-drow" of the Underdark while The Masked Lady, changed as she is, becomes the "CN goddess of choice" of the surface and renegade drow. But I hope the Wizards have a decent enough solution for the FR deities as such, for many deities could cater to various races - possibly under aliases and pseudonyms not known to the various relevant races. Erasing pantheons just for the sake of culling numbers is surely no sensible way forward.
Selvarin 10-16-07, 07:24 PM	There's hope that Spellplague sets in after Lolth takes on Ghaunadaur and the game ends in a "draw". Lolth keeps the "monster-drow" of the Underdark while The Masked Lady, changed as she is, becomes the "CN goddess of choice" of the surface and renegade drow. But I hope the Wizards have a decent enough solution for the FR deities as such, for many deities could cater to various races - possibly under aliases and pseudonyms not known to the various relevant races. Erasing pantheons just for the sake of culling numbers is surely no sensible way forward. That is one good possibility. Years pass between most of the events in that high-stakes game. And there's more than one allusion to Eilistraee's new character after absorbing Vhaeraun's portfolio, followers, etc...only bad part is the one-step alignment rule, so NG types will need to shove off or be a little more chaotic. As for the aliases and pseudonyms for various deities, that can work in a number of places. I don't mind to some degree. I still like what seems to be the eventual target-number for the pantheon's numbers as a whole. But the mini-pantheon idea (I forget who mentioned it) is good, for each culture. In 1e FR there was a fair amount of it. The Northmen had theirs, the Uthgardts, the Calimites, Chultans, and so on. Still want to keep a core base within each nonhuman pantheon intact. Funny thing about Eilistraee and Lolth. If she does indeed become CN (as it appears to be the case), she'll be in an even better position to tempt some from Lolth's. If, in 4eFR, the drow become separated into 'regular' drow and dark elves, then...hmm...more roleplaying opportunities.