Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Tomato_Sauce 08-04-07, 03:35 PM	If their had been a war of some sort between the Elves and The Netherese Empire who, in your opinion, would win? Would the power of the Netherese over-whelm the Elves? Or would the Elves, in their wisdom, use the Netherese hubris against them? This is supposing that the Elves are be at their peak such as the days of Myth-Drannor.
GothicDan 08-04-07, 05:14 PM	This is super hard to tell - largely because the Enclaves of Netheril were almost more like city states than a true nation. Unless the Elves are the ones that initiated the fight, and did so on a unilateral level (like the Phaerimn), I don't think the Netherese would ever have truly worked together well enough to have posed a major challenge to them. And even the Elves weren't totally unified. Cormanthyr was the contemporaneous power of the time, but we still have no clue as to the true extent of power that's been building up on the isle of Evermeet, which up until that time had still never been remotely successfully attacked, and had a chance to stockpile magic and power for thousands upon thousands of years.
Lord Karsus 08-04-07, 06:39 PM	-Reminds me of the good ol' Evermeet Vs. Netheril thread...:)
Karsus the Mad 08-04-07, 07:25 PM	Given that Netheril was never actually an Empire, in the sense that it was never a unified state governed by a single body (tho' they did have the High Mages of Netheril, made up of the most powerful arcanists, it's pretty clear they held power only in Low Netheril, if even that), it's pretty difficult to estimate what their strength would have been. Netheril itself was pretty much the Alliance of Seventon (the original 7 towns), various demesnes of the lesser arcanists (whom acted much like sovereign lords over small chunks of territory), frontier towns that had little to do with others, barbarian tribes, etc, and High Netheril, which was the flying cities in which the archwizards were litterally independent, sovereigns who answered to noone. And as Dan mentioned, even the elves weren't entirely united, so estimating their overall strength is also a work in futility. About the only thing I can actually guess with any possible accuracy is that any "all out" war between a united Netheril and a united Elves would have resulted in neither side actually winning, in the sense that regardless of which one was left standing, there wouldn't be enough Faerun left to actually be considered a winner.
Thinblade 08-04-07, 07:36 PM	The other factor is the empire of Eaerlann, which was Netheril's western neighbor and is alternately described as being a military powerhouse and a weakling nation (in the same supplement!). Unfortunately, almost nothing has been written about Eaerlann besides a couple of broad dates. I know this, because I've been able to use this vacuum to entirely create my own version of Eaerlann, and there hasn't really been anything to contradict me. My, personal, opinion is that Eaerlann, being in perhaps the most dangerous bit of real estate on Faerun (in the path of every orc horde comeing out of the Spine of the World) would have become a highly militant, highly competent society. I just can't see them surviving 4,000+ years in their location otherwise. This would only have increased as they became more and more worried about their human neighbor. Unfortunately, this is all speculation on my part. There's no canon references to Eaerlann's strength (and if Ed's mentioned at Candlekeep, I've completely missed it), and so its factor in a possible "elves vs Netheril" fight can't be quantified. Also, you have to define your time. Any single elven nation could have destroyed Netheril fairly easily within its first thousand years or so of existence, it's only later that it gets dicey. Again, my personal opinion is that, even at its height, Netheril could have been brought down by concerted effort by the elves. If they fought each other head-on, everyone would probably die together, but the elves would have been much more likely to do something like what the phaerimm actually did: a long-term, subtle strategy to undermine and weaken Netheril before launching an actual attack. And lore already shows us how well Netheril defended themselves against that kind of attack.
Faraer 08-04-07, 09:53 PM	If Faerūn's elves had fought Netheril at his height I think the outcome would have been mutually assured destruction: gigantic magical catastrophe and the destruction of both as large political entities. The elves of Myth Drannor of course did war with a remnant of Netheril in the Crown Against the Scepter Wars.
GothicDan 08-04-07, 09:59 PM	And if I remember correctly, Myth Drannor rather stomped them with nary a sneeze. I believe that was 3 survivor states, which still had access to Netherese magic at that time, and mythallars (weren't they the ones that were high enough up that the Weave was functional again before they hit the ground?) Asram, Hlondeth... But I'll throw my coins into the "mutual destruction" bucket, myself. Though I do think that slightly more Elven harmony (if not actual unity - big difference) would have given them an edge.
Thinblade 08-04-07, 10:37 PM	They didn't have mythallars, no mythallar survived the Fall. And the C vs S wars (which were actually more like protracted skirmishes) were just against Hlondeth, since that state was the closest to Myth Drannor. That's also why it survived the longest against the advance of Anauroch. But yes, Myth Drannor pretty well smacked Hlondeth around whenever Hlondeth made a move. The only reason it took the desert to kill the nation was that Myth Drannor had no interest in conquering the humans. edit: Yes, the reason given that those three cities survived is that they were high enough in the air that magic came back before they hit the ground, and the Mystra personally saved them. That explains how they survived without the use of their mythallars to slow their fall. Side note: How the Mighty Are Fallen, the Netheril adventure, implies that the Fall lasts for 5 rounds, which were for at least part of 2e defined at 1 minute. Anyone out there have better kinematics skills than mine and can figure out how high they were, assuming they survived a fall of 5 minutes?
GothicDan 08-04-07, 10:57 PM	Assuming they had no vertical velocity, and that gravity is roughly the same (9.8 m/sec^2): y = v[0]*t + 1/2*g*t^2 y = 1/2*(9.8)*(5*60)^2 y = 4.9*(90,000) y = 441,000 meters. Or roughly 112,014,000 feet. But over 21,000 miles doesn't seem right.
Lord Karsus 08-04-07, 10:59 PM	They didn't have mythallars, no mythallar survived the Fall. -Incorrect. We know that at least two survived- the Mythallar in the Shadow Enclave, and the Mythallar in the Sakkors Enclave. I also vaguely recall something about Skullport, though I don't remember if that was a Mythallar or not. Now that I am thinking about it, I think it was...
Thinblade 08-04-07, 11:31 PM	Shade doesn't count, since they got out just as the fall was happening. The fact that it still exists I account entirely to the awful writing of the RotA trilogy, but I can finagle an in-game reason: that Mystra 2.0, not having direct experience with the problems they can cause, didn't realize she shouldn't allow it back. Where's Sakkors? I haven't heard of it at all, so can't comment one way or another.
Thinblade 08-04-07, 11:41 PM	@ GothicDan: Ooookay... Well. I think we can conclusively say that the Fall did NOT last 5 minutes. Actually (and I know I'm derailing the thread), this is interesting. As far as I know, it's never explicitly stated how long magic didn't exist. Our only clue is that three enclaves were high enough that they hadn't finished falling by the time magic came back. Assuming Toril's gravity is essentially the same as our, we can make some educated guesses. Hmm. Outer bounds. What's the highest that humans can comfortably survive, leaving aside things like magically increasing the oxygen? If everyone else was in the 1000-2000 foot range and the three survivors were up around 9000, that would certainly work. Some enclaves would want to stay closer to the ground, to make getting food and other ground objects easier. Others... maybe doing experiments on how thin air affects magic? Why climb mountains when you could just elevate your enclave? Which, of course, leads us to another interesting question: what's the terminal velocity of an upside-down mountaintop? (and yes, I'm well aware that only a few enclaves were mountaintops)
Karsus the Mad 08-05-07, 02:52 AM	And if I remember correctly, Myth Drannor rather stomped them with nary a sneeze. I believe that was 3 survivor states, which still had access to Netherese magic at that time, and mythallars (weren't they the ones that were high enough up that the Weave was functional again before they hit the ground?) Asram, Hlondeth... But I'll throw my coins into the "mutual destruction" bucket, myself. Though I do think that slightly more Elven harmony (if not actual unity - big difference) would have given them an edge. Keep in mind that the 3 survivor states (two of which had little magical tradition left, and Hlondeth, which kept the tradition, but had little actual skill, since Raumark, it's archwizard, and the rest of his arcanists fled to found Halruaa) were formed of the survivors of enclaves that lost virtually their entire magical infrastructure (mythallars, quasi-magic item, high level spells, and so forth). That was why Hlondeth initiated the Scepter vs. the Crown war, in the attempt to regain some magic that was lost to them. They then promptly proceeded to get womped:D -Incorrect. We know that at least two survived- the Mythallar in the Shadow Enclave, and the Mythallar in the Sakkors Enclave. I also vaguely recall something about Skullport, though I don't remember if that was a Mythallar or not. Now that I am thinking about it, I think it was... There's also the Enclave of Selunarra. It was a Netherese mythal in Skullport (sargauth demesne), which held up a large section of the cavern, then failed during the fall, the cavern collapsed, magic returned, mythal returned. Good chance there was also a mythallar, but I can't find anything to that effect.
Andyr 08-05-07, 10:51 AM	Where's Sakkors? I haven't heard of it at all, so can't comment one way or another. Sakkors is mentioned in Paul S. Kemp's Erevis Cale books (both trilogies), though I won't go into more detail unless you want for fear of spoilers. Its mythal is slightly different from others, though, I think.
Thinblade 08-05-07, 02:53 PM	There's a large difference between mythals and mythallars. And no, I haven't read the books yet, though I'll eventually get around to them.
Lord Karsus 08-05-07, 06:52 PM	There's also the Enclave of Selunarra. -Ah, that's right. I forgot Selūnarra. Actually (and I know I'm derailing the thread), this is interesting. As far as I know, it's never explicitly stated how long magic didn't exist. -How the Mighty Are Fallen states that after the five rounds pass, the Lichlord regains his magical abilities, and flees if he is not destroyed. Since the "encounter" with the Lichlord begins immediatley after Karsus' Avatar was cast, and Mystryl sundered her connection to Karsus, tearing the Weave temporarily, that means that that magic ceased to exist for five rounds (thirty seconds).
GothicDan 08-05-07, 06:56 PM	Five rounds in 2E was 5 minutes. It was assumed that in a given minute, even if you only 'made' one or two attack rolls in a round, there was a whole series of 'off screen' actions you took. It was also broken up into 10 6-second segments, which I liked a lot. It made spellcasting fun - spells were given a casting time of 1-10 (usually), so if you added your initiative roll to your casting time to figure out when your spell would 'go off.' This mechanic of segments is what made Improved Blink in 2E absolutely devastating: you could blink perfectly in a given segment at will. Like, the segment right before a Fighter was about to swing his sword at you, at segment 3. Appearing behind him, you could then cast a Fireball (casting time 3) in the same around, going off at segment 6.
Lord Karsus 08-05-07, 07:01 PM	Five rounds in 2E was 5 minutes. -Well, there you go. It was five minutes, then. That seems too long, in my opinion, though.
Thinblade 08-05-07, 07:28 PM	That's what the calculation was about, to see whether it could have lasted 5 minutes. And, obviously, it couldn't have, otherwise all of the enclaves would have died before Mystra could save them. So, also obviously, the "five rounds" from HtMaF is incorrect. I was suggesting we do a little math to establish at least a "maximum case" for how long things could fall and still not hit the ground.
GothicDan 08-06-07, 11:39 AM	There's a possibility that the combination of air resistance and the principle of terminal velocity could have come in to slow the descent of the falling Enclaves. ... But I seriously doubt such would have decreased the falling speed enough to actually have suggested a much more likely initial altitude.
Lord Karsus 08-06-07, 01:12 PM	-Too bad the designer(s) of the Arcane Age Netheril stuff didn't actually, you know, think...:rolleyes:
Karsus the Mad 08-06-07, 01:23 PM	The 5 rounds bit, from the description at least, is how long it took the lichlord to regain the use of his powers. Take note that mages did not actually regain their powers instantly when the Weave and magic returned. However, the 5 rounds immediately preceeding the lichlord's ability to use his powers again seems like nothing more than a bit of leeway for the PC's to have a chance of permanently destroying the lichlord, rather than anything to do with the time frame in which magic was or wasn't available.
Lord Karsus 08-06-07, 01:34 PM	Take note that mages did not actually regain their powers instantly when the Weave and magic returned. -Why not? Nothing actually says this. If the Weave became available at Point X, why wouldn't they be able to use magic at Point X?
captaincarot 08-06-07, 01:40 PM	-Why not? Nothing actually says this. If the Weave became available at Point X, why wouldn't they be able to use magic at Point X? because she hadn't flicked the breaker switch which turned on the part of the weave that lets people cast new spells yet. she switched it back on bit by bit, with the part that powered currently operating spells first. stops all the people flying about by magic means becoming large red splat marks on the rocks below then you see.
Karsus the Mad 08-06-07, 01:47 PM	-Why not? Nothing actually says this. If the Weave became available at Point X, why wouldn't they be able to use magic at Point X? Ummmm....it does say so, on the next page. Silly LK;)
Green Elven Vampire 08-06-07, 03:01 PM	I think the elves could bake better cookies than Netheril.
GothicDan 08-06-07, 03:03 PM	And better pie.
Lord Karsus 08-06-07, 03:35 PM	Ummmm....it does say so, on the next page. Silly LK;) -It does says that it took X amount of time for Arcanists to figure out how to use the Weave again. That is correct. -It doesn't say anything about the actual amount of time it took for the Weave to "reset", though. In other words, the amount of time that the Arcanists took to figure out how to use magic again, and the amount of time that it took for magic to be usable again are two different numbers. -If the Lichlord was able to use a Teleport spell, then we know that it took at least five rounds for the Weave to reboot. I think the elves could bake better cookies than Netheril. And better pie. -Correct on both points.
Karsus the Mad 08-06-07, 04:19 PM	-If the Lichlord was able to use a Teleport spell, then we know that it took at least five rounds for the Weave to reboot. Not really. We have no clue how long it took the Weave to reboot. The only clues are that three enclaves were high enough to survive until Mystra v.1 saved them, and the blurb in LEoF that says "almost immediately Mystryl was reincarnated as Mystra". Given that the calculations provided by Dan above pretty much show that it's impossible for them to have fell for 5 minutes/rounds, it seems more than likely that the 5-rounds bit is specific to the amount of time the Lichlord took to regain the use of his powers, and that's specifically what they note it as also. It does not note anything about the Weave being restored after 5 rounds, or that the PC's are now able to use magic, etc. It's specific to the lichlord. Technically, he shouldn't have actually been able to cast that teleport spell for an entire 8 days (30 days -22 Int) after the Fall. It seems to me that the 5 rounds is purely so that the PC's have the chance, and enough time (while keeping the encounter dramatic of course), to permanently destroy the lichlord, rather than the designer's intent to suggest that it took 5 rounds/minutes for the Weave to be recreated/restored, or that the lichlord was some uber prodigy that didn't require the standard amount of time to relearn how to use magic, and was able to cast a teleport spell mere minutes after the Fall instead of days (and oddly able to cast said spell without having memorized it to begin with in accordance to the new rules governing spellcasting after the Fall;) ). Also, the lichlord was rather dazed afterwards, so it's also possible it simply took several minutes after magic was restored to clear his rotten mind and get his bearings again:P Either way, taking the amount of time it took a dazed, and prolly traumatized NPC to regain the use of his spells (which again, it should have taken him 8 days) and abilities from a scenario that's meant to be a dramatic "kill him before he escapes" situation and using that to formulate an estimation on how long it took the Weave to be restored is...well :)
GothicDan 08-06-07, 05:33 PM	I actually have to agree with Mr. The Mad's argument here. :)
Lord Karsus 08-06-07, 07:32 PM	Given that the calculations provided by Dan above pretty much show that it's impossible for them to have fell for 5 minutes/rounds, it seems more than likely that the 5-rounds bit is specific to the amount of time the Lichlord took to regain the use of his powers, and that's specifically what they note it as also. It's specific to the lichlord. Technically, he shouldn't have actually been able to cast that teleport spell for an entire 8 days (30 days -22 Int) after the Fall. It seems to me that the 5 rounds is purely so that the PC's have the chance, and enough time (while keeping the encounter dramatic of course), to permanently destroy the lichlord, rather than the designer's intent to suggest that it took 5 rounds/minutes for the Weave to be recreated/restored, or that the lichlord was some uber prodigy that didn't require the standard amount of time to relearn how to use magic, and was able to cast a teleport spell mere minutes after the Fall instead of days (and oddly able to cast said spell without having memorized it to begin with in accordance to the new rules governing spellcasting after the Fall;) ). Also, the lichlord was rather dazed afterwards, so it's also possible it simply took several minutes after magic was restored to clear his rotten mind and get his bearings again:P Either way, taking the amount of time it took a dazed, and prolly traumatized NPC to regain the use of his spells (which again, it should have taken him 8 days) and abilities from a scenario that's meant to be a dramatic "kill him before he escapes" situation and using that to formulate an estimation on how long it took the Weave to be restored is...well :) -One theory that "smooths" things is that the Teleport ability used by the Lichlord was an innate magical ability that he had, explained by (3e) that feat that allows a character to sacrifice a spell slot in return for the ability to use a specific spell as a spell-like ability. In this theory, magic indeed begin working after those five rounds passed. Supernatural abilities, magical items, and all of those kinds of things began working after those five minutes passed. Thus, the Lichlord was able to Teleport out of these. -In order to cast magic after the Weave was "rewired", a mage had to reaffirm his connection to the Weave. Like a synapse in the brain, this new connection took time to develop and take hold (30 Days - INT). -That's the best I can do trying to make sense of it all.
dragonheart 08-08-07, 09:13 AM	Terminal velocity varies somewhat depending on shape but mountain tops are roughly conical - a fairly aerodynamic shape so those enclaves would have fallen fastest - about 150 MPH (240kph) . Enclaves with flatter bottoms would have fallen more slowly - about 110 MPH (176Kph). USing those values and assuming instantaneous starting and stopping the survivor states would have to have been up above 48400 feet and been using magical oxygen support. 176 KPH = 176,000 mPH = 49 mps which would take all of 5 seconds to reach so an instant start is not to bad an estimate. So you've accounted for 5 seconds out of 5 minutes for starting and stopping and your still up in the stratosphere when you start and in dire need of oxygen support. After magic returns Assuming a 1 G deceleration you also need about 5 seconds at the end to bring things to a stop - rather a hard stop. So if you allow a 1/2 G stop 10 seconds and your going to be needing an additional 500 meters (49 mps * 10 seconds) to bring the enclave to a stop while still in the air. I guess they were doing some sort of upper atmpsophere research at the time - maybe testing those skyships in hte upper airs to see how they worked.