Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Chamber101 11-24-07, 01:20 PM	Just got my copy of Grand History of The Realms: Pages 158 - 159 - the worst deluge of deus ex machina and forced conversion preparation I have ever had the displeasure of reading. Every word was like a mouthful of sh@t. Forgotten Realms - 1967 - 2008 R.I.P. old friend.
Mr_Miscellany 11-24-07, 02:36 PM	Ed will still be there, buddy. Ed will still be there.
Green Elven Vampire 11-24-07, 02:41 PM	Just got my copy of Grand History of The Realms: Pages 158 - 159 - the worst deluge of deus ex machina and forced conversion preparation I have ever had the displeasure of reading. Every word was like a mouthful of sh@t. Forgotten Realms - 1967 - 2008 R.I.P. old friend. My point exactly! 4ED conversions are a total wicked joke! Die 4ED DIE!!!
Faraer 11-24-07, 05:24 PM	1987–2008, maybe. 1967–2008, no way. That would be a category error.
Todesherr 11-24-07, 09:40 PM	1987–2008, maybe. 1967–2008, no way. That would be a category error. I believe he was referring to his age...
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 04:16 AM	-Meh, you'll come to terms with it. And, who knows- things might change between now and then such that the "new" Realms aren't that bad...
Sol_Odlanier 11-25-07, 04:39 AM	-Meh, you'll come to terms with it. And, who knows- things might change between now and then such that the "new" Realms aren't that bad... -Was that a Ray of hope that I heard from my Master Voice?
Sol_Odlanier 11-25-07, 04:40 AM	4ED conversions are a total wicked joke! Die 4ED DIE!!! :P I love this guy's Drive!
Karsus the Mad 11-25-07, 04:45 AM	-Was that a Ray of hope that I heard from my Master Voice? That was a belch actually. Beer induced most likely.
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 04:53 AM	That was a belch actually. Beer induced most likely. -Coke and cappuccino, actually.
Mr_Miscellany 11-25-07, 04:56 AM	I can't wait for GenCon 2008. I'll be looking over my shoulder to make sure Markus doesn't murder me, all while trying to make my way from bar to bar (The Ram is most definitely on my list) to find any and all Realms fans so as to saddle up next to them and toast the Realms as it was. I'm guessing there's going to be armed guards at the Realms Seminar (if they even have one). Every question will start with either, "Why the hell did you do this..." or "What the hell made you think that was a good idea?!?!" Should be good for lots of laughs (and free drinks, if I work it right).
Sol_Odlanier 11-25-07, 04:58 AM	:rolleyes: That was a belch actually. Beer induced most likely. Figures....
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 06:22 AM	I can't wait for GenCon 2008. -Where is it, in '08?
Mr_Miscellany 11-25-07, 02:43 PM	Indianapolis, I'd assume.
Sir_Shadow 11-25-07, 03:07 PM	I'm guessing there's going to be armed guards at the Realms Seminar (if they even have one). I hope WotC notifies the National Gaurd so that they have suffificient opportunity to get trained up in time. "Mr. Baker, make sure all your people have their Flak jackets and Kevlars on and remember, the tanks are here for your protection."
Karsus the Mad 11-25-07, 03:54 PM	Indianapolis, I'd assume. Really? My pappy lives in Ft. Wayne. I may just have to...visit...the old bastard.
The Ubbergeek 11-25-07, 04:56 PM	Just got my copy of Grand History of The Realms: Pages 158 - 159 - the worst deluge of deus ex machina and forced conversion preparation I have ever had the displeasure of reading. Every word was like a mouthful of sh@t. Forgotten Realms - 1967 - 2008 R.I.P. old friend. BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW grognard. The world is still there, basicaly nothing really changed beside the cosmetic changes. I am serious. This is the same world, really. Same themes, same thing. The changes are really overblown, as you look really deep at the details. Cosmetic.
johnkretzer 11-25-07, 04:59 PM	BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW grognard. The world is still there, basicaly nothing really changed beside the cosmetic changes. I am serious. This is the same world, really. Same themes, same thing. The changes are really overblown, as you look really deep at the details. Cosmetic. Ok so what is the same basic themes they are keeping? How are these only cosmetic changes? Also with some much devastions and time passing(assuming the 100 year jump) shouldn't there be deeper changes?
Sir_Shadow 11-25-07, 05:16 PM	BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW grognard. The world is still there, basicaly nothing really changed beside the cosmetic changes. I am serious. This is the same world, really. Same themes, same thing. The changes are really overblown, as you look really deep at the details. Cosmetic. Wow. You know to quote Inigo Montoya, I do not think that word means what you think it means. Seriously, is that like supposed to be a trump card. Is calling somewhat a grognard supposed to be an insult or is it just the only thing you can say. Is your vocabulary that limited that for every single post and topic of this nature your response is grognard its the same grognard grognard grognard its the same grognard grognard etc etc ad nauseum. If thats your one trick give it a rest. The Topic poster and a great deal many other people have legitimate concerns about the setting and have a great deal invested in them whether you agree with them or not. Its obvious that you never seem to have anything meaningful to add to these threads, believe it or not spouting grognard all the time isnt meaningful, so either get a thesaurus to find a new word that isnt based on internet message board terminology, or how about instead of saying its the same world over and over, how about you show it like JohnKretzer (and I'm sure quite a few other people as well) have asked. Is that to difficult or just counter to your reasoning for actually posting on these threads. And by the by, the word grognard, outside of message board meme internet speak, especially for alot of older players (Greyhawk specifically) is not an insult, its somewhat of a badge of honor going back to wargamming.
Lord Karsus 11-25-07, 05:32 PM	Indianapolis, I'd assume. -Feh. Oh well. The world is still there, basicaly nothing really changed beside the cosmetic changes. -Uh...Yeah... Seriously, is that like supposed to be a trump card. Is calling somewhat a grognard supposed to be an insult or is it just the only thing you can say. Is your vocabulary that limited that for every single post and topic of this nature your response is grognard its the same grognard grognard grognard its the same grognard grognard etc etc ad nauseum. If thats your one trick give it a rest. The Topic poster and a great deal many other people have legitimate concerns about the setting and have a great deal invested in them whether you agree with them or not. -He's a mostly one-trick pony lately.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-25-07, 06:26 PM	BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW grognard. The world is still there, basicaly nothing really changed beside the cosmetic changes. I am serious. This is the same world, really. Same themes, same thing. The changes are really overblown, as you look really deep at the details. Cosmetic. How do you know? Did you get an ARC of the 4E Realms setting or something?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-25-07, 06:27 PM	-He's a mostly one-trick pony lately. He's just a grouch. He's like the Grinch who stole Christmas!
Sol_Odlanier 11-25-07, 06:40 PM	DDDAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNNNNG!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ubber is Getting BURNED!!!!!:D
infinite_ant 11-26-07, 08:31 AM	I think Ubber is talking about Mystra and the organization of dieties, in that respect hes right: simple decoration changes. (The love triangle seems pretty cool, I always liked Helm and now he will be given more depth, funnily enough, through death.)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-26-07, 09:20 AM	I think Ubber is talking about Mystra and the organization of dieties, in that respect hes right: simple decoration changes. Yeah, right. The designers themselves have said they saw problems with the deities (and Mystra) as they were in 3E. If they are fixing a problem, how is that a "simple decoration change"? Ridiculous.:rolleyes: Agree with the changes or don't...but don't say they are merely cosmetic.
Butterface 11-26-07, 09:25 AM	I can't wait for GenCon 2008. I'll be looking over my shoulder to make sure Markus doesn't murder me, all while trying to make my way from bar to bar (The Ram is most definitely on my list) to find any and all Realms fans so as to saddle up next to them and toast the Realms as it was. I'm guessing there's going to be armed guards at the Realms Seminar (if they even have one). Every question will start with either, "Why the hell did you do this..." or "What the hell made you think that was a good idea?!?!" Should be good for lots of laughs (and free drinks, if I work it right). I can't wait for GenCon '08 either! I'll be there to toast the Realms with you.
Chamber101 11-26-07, 04:43 PM	1987–2008, maybe. 1967–2008, no way. That would be a category error. I got this from Wikki but I have no reason to believe it is wrong (I dont have Dragon 218 so cant verify it but seems pretty conclusive): "In 1967, an 8-year-old Canadian boy wrote the following lines: "Now in all the lands 'twixt bustling Waterdeep and the sparkling waves of The Sea of Fallen Stars, no men were more loved -- and feared -- than the stoic swordsman Durnan, the blustering old rogue Mirt, and the all-wise, ancient wizard Elminster." [source: Dragon Magazine #218, p. 8] These were the very first words written about the Forgotten Realms and that boy was Ed Greenwood, who originally designed it and began writing little stories of his own about heroes adventuring in an imaginary world and publishing a series of short articles detailing the setting in Dragon magazine. Although The Realms were yet to be an official campaign world, the first module based on the setting, H1 Bloodstone Pass, was released in 1985 by TSR. The first fully official Forgotten Realms Campaign Set (often referred to as 'the old grey box' or just 'grey box') was later released in 1987 as a boxed set of two source books and four large maps, designed by Greenwood in collaboration with author Jeff Grubb." So the Realms were technically born in 1967 (by a 7 year old no less!!!!) but didnt see gaming daylight until 1985. By the way Ubbergeek - Yeah I was bawling a little bit, I usually do mourn the passing of something dear to me... As for 'cosmetic changes', the systematic culling of dozens of Gods - (so The Cosmology can be redesigned), The Weave - (one of the very things that makes the FR setting unique) and the use of poor plot device to remove major NPCs - (another thing that makes the setting so attractive to so many) stinks of the designers dragging the setting, history and fans kicking and screaming into 1472 (ish) and 4th Ed. As a footnote: The rich history and exquisite detail of the Reams is what fascinates me and attracted me to the setting in the first place. I had played howebrew for 20 odd years. Now, because I do not want to convert to 4ed I am going to have to put in a lot of work to shoe horn the new history that is about to be written, into my 3.5 campaign and when I am done its just not going to feel 'canon' and I like canon.
Faraer 11-26-07, 05:11 PM	What I mean is, in some sense it may be true that the Realms first published as such in 1987 will cease publication in 2008. But the Realms that began in 1967, the imaginary world, does not depend on new sourcebooks or novels and is not vulnerable to 'death', certainly as long as we continue to learn about it from Ed and other scribes, and keep imagining and playing there.
Chamber101 11-26-07, 05:39 PM	What I mean is, in some sense it may be true that the Realms first published as such in 1987 will cease publication in 2008. But the Realms that began in 1967, the imaginary world, does not depend on new sourcebooks or novels and is not vulnerable to 'death', certainly as long as we continue to learn about it from Ed and other scribes, and keep imagining and playing there. I know mate - I was being mellodramatic with the whole 'RIP' thing. Of course for many - mostly the uninitiated - the Realms will indeed continue past 2008. Its just that, for me, 2008 and the introduction of 4e and the Realms being shifted about to fit in possibly marks the end of my involvement as a gamer in FR canon. For example, I suspect that the destruction of so many gods, planes and the weave is to simply fascilitate the introduction of new gaming rules (predominantly; spell casting and divine magic). The designers felt that to do this, certain gods had to go. From 1384DR onwards, there will be no more Helm or Mystran history being made. I do not believe that this has been done to create a good story (like the death of Bhaal and the whole Crown of Horns/Myrkul thing) but because that 4e designers needed to thin the divine herd for game mechanic design reasons (maybe related to the 4e 'dumbing down' accusations that are going about the boards). In my opinion, story comes before mechanic every time so because I (and the majority of fans it seems) do not like what the designers are doing, we are left to write our own history from 1385 onwards where the churches of Helm, Mystra etc continue to grow and create wonderful adventures. Therefore, there is no point in me buying any more realms gaming accessories if the story and history (imo) is all wrong. Which is a shame because, as stated before, I adore the richness of the history and detail of the realms and to me, it seems they are shooting themselves in the foot. I truly cant make a decision though of course until I start seeing what they do and what they write about and how much canon I can still integrate into MY realms.
Faraer 11-26-07, 07:05 PM	I think that's pretty fair. We know a good amount now about what's being done and why. I, for one, dislike much of it because it answers to other priorities than mine and what I consider the Realms'. But look at how much we don't know. We don't know how much of the setting's essence Realms-2008 will keep; to what extent sourcebooks and adventures will be compatible with 14th-century Faerûn; whether any fiction and web articles will be set before the latest timeline; whether Realms-2008 will eclipse the current Realms or sink the sourcebook line or be swiftly abandoned for the current Realms or one 100 years still later, or something in between; how long the current decision-makers will be around; what magic Ed may yet be able to weave; or what ways the Wizards designers may genuinely augment the Realms even as they lessen and sacrifice it with the other hand.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-26-07, 07:13 PM	As a footnote: The rich history and exquisite detail of the Reams is what fascinates me and attracted me to the setting in the first place. I had played howebrew for 20 odd years. Now, because I do not want to convert to 4ed I am going to have to put in a lot of work to shoe horn the new history that is about to be written, into my 3.5 campaign and when I am done its just not going to feel 'canon' and I like canon. Here's my advice, you can take it or leave it: Let go of "canon". If you dislike the new changes, why feel that you have to use them? Trust me, going your own way with the setting will be liberating. Ubbergeek didn't say you were bawling. He just said "BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW". I wonder how that is pronounced. Is it like "Bawh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh...? So many 'W's!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-26-07, 07:14 PM	What I mean is, in some sense it may be true that the Realms first published as such in 1987 will cease publication in 2008. But the Realms that began in 1967, the imaginary world, does not depend on new sourcebooks or novels and is not vulnerable to 'death', certainly as long as we continue to learn about it from Ed and other scribes, and keep imagining and playing there. I agree (as usual).:)
Chamber101 11-26-07, 10:40 PM	Here's my advice, you can take it or leave it: Let go of "canon". If you dislike the new changes, why feel that you have to use them? Trust me, going your own way with the setting will be liberating. I pretty much resigned to the fact that I was going to have to do that anyway (once I had made my mind up about subsequent releases content), but purely because I really dont have much choice when faced with a Realms that the designers are changing in so many ways just to make way for 4ed. The point is, I shouldnt have to. A whole host of gamers who are sticking to 3/3.5 are going to be facing a very sparse FR future unless they want to put in their own considerable amount of work. I understand where you are coming from but 'going your own way' with a setting, you might as well use a homebrew when the whole point of enjoying the realms is that its all there for you - and so much of it too - which presents another solution of course: I was considering in my next campaign rewinding the clock and setting the game during a key moment in the past (fall of Netheril, Crown Wars etc). There is so much good stuff to choose from. I am just saddened that my own adventure in The FR, as a DM soaking up everything as it gets revealed, seems to be coming to an end with no more surprises in store that I can easilly utilise in my game. Ubbergeek didn't say you were bawling. He just said "BAWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW". I wonder how that is pronounced. Is it like "Bawh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh-wuh...? So many 'W's! Thats always the problem with trying to spell noises!!!! He went to the trouble of making a sound with a written word that was for my attention, so it would be rude of me not to attempt a translation! I read it like a kind of babies' cry, you know, as in "Bawwwwwww, poor baby lost his favourite setting?"
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-27-07, 01:34 PM	The point is, I shouldnt have to. A whole host of gamers who are sticking to 3/3.5 are going to be facing a very sparse FR future unless they want to put in their own considerable amount of work. That's understandable--not everyone has the time to spend on tweaking the setting and having it all there for you already can be a boon. I understand where you are coming from but 'going your own way' with a setting, you might as well use a homebrew when the whole point of enjoying the realms is that its all there for you - and so much of it too... Have to disagree with you here. I believe the setting is meant to be tweaked, and people should feel free to develop it as they want to. Besides, diverging from what's official isn't quite the same as creating a whole new setting from scratch, is it? Thats always the problem with trying to spell noises!!!! He went to the trouble of making a sound with a written word that was for my attention, so it would be rude of me not to attempt a translation! I read it like a kind of babies' cry, you know, as in "Bawwwwwww, poor baby lost his favourite setting?" I read it as "Ubbergeek is being grumpy again.":)
johnkretzer 11-27-07, 04:38 PM	I read it as "Ubbergeek is being grumpy again.":) I read as Ubbergeek crying like a baby because people disagree with him that WotC can do no wrong...;)
Sol_Odlanier 11-27-07, 05:24 PM	- please people stop using my +5 Geek Bane Flaming Burst Great Sword on Ubber's rear end please, That Means you to Rino!! Or at least wait until I get my Camara:P
Lykor 12-02-07, 03:31 PM	With all due respect, the Realms didn't (won't) die in 2008. They died in 2007 with the death of Halaster, GHoTR bizareness, Orc King spoilers, conclusion to Demonweb pits, etc. The actual release of the 4e PG will simple be WotC burying the Realms ravaged corpse.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-02-07, 04:55 PM	With all due respect, the Realms didn't (won't) die in 2008. They died in 2007 with the death of Halaster, GHoTR bizareness, Orc King spoilers, conclusion to Demonweb pits, etc. I agree, that's when the official version of the Realms died for me.
Suin Bahhar 12-03-07, 09:13 AM	Most of the time I like the canon solutions but they will certainly not stand in the way of a good gaming session. Shared imaginary worlds with huge amount of interest like FR cant die.
Alediran 12-03-07, 09:33 AM	PEOPLE, FELLOW REALMSIANS, DO NOT DESPAIR, A RAY OF HOPE HAS ARRISEN TO DELIVER THE TRUE TO THE PROMISED LAND! Basicaly, I began yesterday the development of a web site dedicated to the true realms that will be run by true realmsians, I'm starting with my own boards sistem, a wiki-like section (except that you need security permissions to make and edit articles, we don't want FR bashers destroying our world) and a campaign blog section. After that, who knows.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-03-07, 09:47 AM	PEOPLE, FELLOW REALMSIANS, DO NOT DESPAIR, A RAY OF HOPE HAS ARRISEN TO DELIVER THE TRUE TO THE PROMISED LAND! Basicaly, I began yesterday the development of a web site dedicated to the true realms that will be run by true realmsians, I'm starting with my own boards sistem, a wiki-like section (except that you need security permissions to make and edit articles, we don't want FR bashers destroying our world) and a campaign blog section. After that, who knows. Great idea, thank you!
Zireael 12-03-07, 09:56 AM	Not a bad idea, though I hope the Realms will evolve... in a better way than now... :( :(
Rauric 12-03-07, 10:02 AM	I understand how Ubber feels, he just cannot post his reasons in a diplomatic way. He comes off frustrated in every post I see him write. As a DM I don't see any real official anything with D&D anymore. I used to, but I then realized the rules and lore is just things the players can use or ignore to help them play the game. I have seen so many house rules FR stuff that I really do not know how anybody could follow the published canon stuff 100% of the time anyway. There are lots of times where a DM can make better lore or better rules. I know some DMs who changed things all the way back in 2E that made more sense than what was found in standard canon stuff. People have chosen to ignore a lot of things through the years. If everthing is under control of the DM It really should not matter if peoples "favorites" are taken out of official lore. Listen, I am not saying people are wrong for feeling this way, I just think people are going a little overboard on their outrage. Cancer is something to fret about, not canon from a fictional world that can be changed by the DM/Players. ;) Anyway I predict that the Weave and some dead gods and NPCs may make a return in a few years.
Lord Karsus 12-03-07, 11:26 AM	Anyway I predict that the Weave and some dead gods and NPCs may make a return in a few years. -Though I would like that, I hope WotC doesn't do that. If they're going to do something drastic, like they're doing, stick to your guns. Don't be a wishy-washy flip-flop.
johnkretzer 12-03-07, 03:30 PM	I understand how Ubber feels, he just cannot post his reasons in a diplomatic way. He comes off frustrated in every post I see him write. As a DM I don't see any real official anything with D&D anymore. I used to, but I then realized the rules and lore is just things the players can use or ignore to help them play the game. I have seen so many house rules FR stuff that I really do not know how anybody could follow the published canon stuff 100% of the time anyway. There are lots of times where a DM can make better lore or better rules. I know some DMs who changed things all the way back in 2E that made more sense than what was found in standard canon stuff. People have chosen to ignore a lot of things through the years. If everthing is under control of the DM It really should not matter if peoples "favorites" are taken out of official lore. Listen, I am not saying people are wrong for feeling this way, I just think people are going a little overboard on their outrage. Cancer is something to fret about, not canon from a fictional world that can be changed by the DM/Players. ;) Anyway I predict that the Weave and some dead gods and NPCs may make a return in a few years. You are right I can't think of a single FR game that follows canon 100%. But that is not the problem people are having... People do follow lets say on average about 60% to 80%. of the canon. With the changes it just dropped for some of us to about 0% to 20%. Suddenly any future books about the FR will be about 0% to 20% as useful. That is the problem now. I used look forward to the FR soucebooks...now I am going to buy the FRCG in hopes of something redeemable...that is a major change.
Suin Bahhar 12-03-07, 04:44 PM	I agree that the usefullness for running current campaigns is reduced. But I hope the story ideas and known places can still prove usefull for new DMs and the DMs who want to combine the old lore with the new. Nobody is forcing you to play there but canon Realms feels more "real" to us all. A world with few inconsistancies and a logical and indepth timeline has at first glance more authority than any homebrew. And the fact people all over the world recognize things from it, and have constructive conversations on it enhances the shared world greatly. The internet has changed the setting for the best too. Without it I wouldnt have come up with anything like a canon for a game setting... The outrage is great nowadays as a lot of time is invested in the community aspect of building on the realms. WotC sees the realms now as their 4ed guinea pig and effectively has taken over the boards as their property, absorbed the best D&D mags and generally has been very frank and clear about what they intend to do. That I like. But the outrage is warranted to continue as their actions are quite rash and seem unthoughtfull of the work they stand on. T
msatran 12-03-07, 06:39 PM	Yeah. I wish they had done Eberron first. Heck, I wish they had done Greyhawk first. I'd take DARK SUN over this ****.
rjtrotter 12-03-07, 07:06 PM	Yeah. I wish they had done Eberron first. Heck, I wish they had done Greyhawk first. I'd take DARK SUN over this ****. Hey! What's wrong with Darksun! Sorry, lol! For my 2 cents, I'm holding on to opinion until I get a chance to see how they work the changes into the "story" of the realms.
msatran 12-04-07, 04:35 AM	Cannibalism as a PC option. But that's relatively minor.
MaskedOne 12-05-07, 01:09 PM	-Though I would like that, I hope WotC doesn't do that. If they're going to do something drastic, like they're doing, stick to your guns. Don't be a wishy-washy flip-flop. Why? There are activities where sticking to one's guns after discovering an error in the original plan is useful but most of the time it means you've already screwed something over dramatically and the only way not to screw it over more dramatically is to keep moving foward. I can't actually see a benefit to WotC continuing to move forward with the insanity they've come out with. I know what they're hoping for but from my position, they're really isn't a point to it and hoping they stay committed to a plan that I despise is counterproductive. I'd love to see some of these changes negated before August (not likely) or reversed some time after the FRCG comes out by new lore (still not likely, but I can hope).