Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Pyrogen 12-06-07, 11:55 AM	Just been reading one of the stories from this anathology where an elven mother is horrified that her child has died "unpledged" and therefore no god would claim him from the Fugue Plain. I thought this slightly strange because surely either a child who has not yet reached an age where they can profess their own faith would be assumed to have that of their parents by the god in question, or the parents, knowing how important such a thing was, would have dedicated the child at birth to the most appropriate deity. So, for example, most humans would dedicate their child to Lathander as the god of birth, or possibly Helm as the god of guardians, who also happens to rather like children. However, for elves this would be done even before birth because elf mothers can commune with their child in the womb and convey to them a sense of their identity, parentage, etc, before they are even born. This being the case, surely they would also impart the knowledge, "revere Corellon because he is your creator" or some such thing. Also assuming that drow mothers can do the same, this might account for why followers of Sheverash feel justified in killing infants of Lolth worshipers because even before birth they will in fact have been indoctrinated. Of course this doesn't account for why this didn't happen to Drizzt but would explain why he should be considered such an anomaly, as opposed to the drow child of an Eilistraee worshiper who would naturally have been indoctinated with that goddesses outlook. I am basing these assumptions of the Complete Book of the Elves which of course was a Version2 book. So did this aspect of elves change in later versions? Would appreciate some ideas about this.
Alediran 12-06-07, 11:58 AM	Drow have lost the ability to commune after the curse. And in 3ed the communion ability (useless during a k3w1 combat) wasn't ruled.
Lord Karsus 12-06-07, 01:26 PM	-Drow do not have the ability to enter into an Elven Communion. MT wrote up some good rules about the Elven Communion in Elves of Faerūn.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-06-07, 02:45 PM	I didn't care for the religious ideas put forth in this story. I've talked about it at length on Candlekeep.com. But then again, I hate the whole 3E "patron deity" concept to begin with (which Lisa Smedman, the author in question, seems to take very literally--apparently it applies to babies who can't even think for themselves).
Stigger 12-06-07, 06:40 PM	One wonders when the issue of what side of the church you're buried in is going to come up. :rolleyes:
18DELTA 12-06-07, 08:42 PM	One wonders when the issue of what side of the church you're buried in is going to come up. :rolleyes: :eek: North, South, East, or West? :P :rolleyes:
Stigger 12-07-07, 02:44 AM	Obviously you aren't aware that significance was placed upon which side of the church you were buried on... certain cardinal directions being reserved for certain types of people. Started in the medieval period as far as I recall, though possibly the Rennaisance.
Faraer 12-07-07, 08:10 AM	Just been reading one of the stories from this anathology where an elven mother is horrified that her child has died "unpledged" and therefore no god would claim him from the Fugue Plain.This idea is even more cruel, obnoxious and unRealmslike than the 'one god or else' blurf is for adults. Ed was asked about it and said:No soul is doomed through an inability to make choices, only by the choices that soul has made. In other words, innocents do not have a single predetermined fate (despite the propaganda of some Faerūnian sages and churches; i.e. what you may have read in various published adventures or sourcebooks).I thought this slightly strange because surely either a child who has not yet reached an age where they can profess their own faith would be assumed to have that of their parents by the god in question, or the parents, knowing how important such a thing was, would have dedicated the child at birth to the most appropriate deity.It isn't widely known in the Realms: we almost never hear folk talk of it in the fiction, and yes, this is an inconsistency as even with the veil of uncertainty with divine matters something so basic would be understood.So, for example, most humans would dedicate their child to Lathander as the god of birth, or possibly Helm as the god of guardians, who also happens to rather like children.Given the importance in the Realms of free will, and that some, perhaps most adults don't have a formal patron, I doubt this happens much outside totemic societies and the families of priests.However, for elves this would be done even before birth because elf mothers can commune with their child in the womb and convey to them a sense of their identity, parentage, etc, before they are even born. This being the case, surely they would also impart the knowledge, "revere Corellon because he is your creator" or some such thing.I'd just ignore the cryptochristian theology, but even if not I'd assume that elven spirits go to Arvandor as part of their natural life and death cycle.
Pyrogen 12-07-07, 08:44 AM	Thank you, that is all very helpful. However, if what Ed says is true then where exactly do the souls of children go? Racial ones to their own pantheon but what about the human? Also if you are only condemned by the choices you have made, do all drow infants (not yet able to offer any sort of prayer to Lolth in the accepted sense) go to Eilistraee's realm in Arvandor instead of the Demonweb? If so, then that would throw a rather different light on the activities of Sheverash's faithful as presumably he would argue that by killing the babes before they professed faith, he was saving them from an eternity of servitude to Lolth. A rather warped and twisted justification for the murder of innocents I will admit but nevertheless the logic is there. Unless of course you assume that all drow are inherently evil and have to make an adult choice to reject their heritage, in which case he would still justify their stance as disposing of evil before it has a chance to grow. To my mind something doesn't quite add up in all this but then a lot of the thinking concerning the gods doesn't in my book. Oh well.
Lord Karsus 12-07-07, 08:50 AM	Thank you, that is all very helpful. However, if what Ed says is true then where exactly do the souls of children go? -The patron of the mother. That's what I would rule, anyway. Since a child and mother are inherently linked, I don't think it would be too out of the question that the patron pick up the child of a worshipper. That makes for happy reunions and all.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-07-07, 02:25 PM	-The patron of the mother. That's what I would rule, anyway. Since a child and mother are inherently linked, I don't think it would be too out of the question that the patron pick up the child of a worshipper. That makes for happy reunions and all. That sounds like it would work in many cases, though not all (in my opinion)--for example, if the mother worshipped some horrible deity, the innocent child would wind up with that deity as well...
Lord Karsus 12-07-07, 02:28 PM	That sounds like it would work in many cases, though not all (in my opinion)--for example, if the mother worshipped some horrible deity, the innocent child would wind up with that deity as well... -Hey, no one said that the laws of the multiverse were nice. I could see a benevolent deity, such as Lathander, petitioning for the soul, in one of these kinds of cases, though.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-07-07, 02:34 PM	-Hey, no one said that the laws of the multiverse were nice. True. I'm on the soft-hearted side though...:) I'd like to mention that the recent novel The Gossamer Plain addresses this very issue we are talking about--what happens to the child of an evil mother if the the mother is killed and the child dies in the womb? I thought it was quite a good novel, in spite of the fact that it will apparent involve the Spellplague later on (*shudders*).
johnkretzer 12-07-07, 05:30 PM	Just some of my thoughts on the issue in question. Personaly I think a child who can't form their own opinions yet and haven't made a choice yet should go to Kelevemore. Though seeing him as more of a guardian for the innocent soul. They are then raised and given a choice later...
Stigger 12-07-07, 06:16 PM	I usually just think of it as the soul being absorbed back into the 'pool' and getting back in line for another go on the mortal coil...
Faraer 12-07-07, 06:16 PM	If the child is old enough to have any religious awareness, one god will loom largest for him or her, so by the books he or she will go to that god's domain. Maybe infants are 'called' by certain gods or aligned to them through magical, astrological and other ineffable factors. Maybe infants' souls are directly reincarnated. Maybe the afterlife isn't really compartmentalized by deity, or there's some unique place for them. All the suggestions above are fine too. I wouldn't feel obliged to decide in advance or have it always work the same -- these things are supposed to be mysteries! In all of this, pick something that works for you, or you won't be able to DM it so well.
Stigger 12-07-07, 06:20 PM	I don't think in all the years that I've been DMing that its ever come up... well, beyond two PC clerics getting into odd theological discussions at the tavern...
GreenKnight 12-07-07, 11:46 PM	well, beyond two PC clerics getting into odd theological discussions at the tavern... Look on the bright side. At least they weren't trying to start a bar fight. :rolleyes:
Stigger 12-08-07, 01:02 AM	I enjoy games that do that actually... and tend to encourage that interaction between the players. I see it as a good thing that really helps them get into the 'heads' of their characters.
Lord Karsus 12-08-07, 10:28 AM	I usually just think of it as the soul being absorbed back into the 'pool' and getting back in line for another go on the mortal coil... -I like that idea. It also allows one to utilize the Bastion of Broken Souls Adventure, the one premade adventure that I've actually been a player in. It was also enjoyable. Basically, an ancient Red Dragon looking to elevate itself to divinity gains control of the Bastion of Souls, where souls come from.
Zireael 12-10-07, 09:42 AM	Worshippers of Shevarash do kill drow children?! Death to the evil faeries! :) And surely it can't be true!
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 11:06 AM	Worshippers of Shevarash do kill drow children?! Death to the evil faeries! :) And surely it can't be true! -Drow are Drow. By killing them as children, you're preventing them from having to go through the brutalities that are prevalent in Drow society. So, by killing them, you're actually helping them out.
Rauric 12-10-07, 12:15 PM	Except that when they die they go straight to Lloth. So that is a nice thought, sending an innocent to go spend eternity with the Queen of Chaos.;)
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 01:52 PM	Except that when they die they go straight to Lloth. So that is a nice thought, sending an innocent to go spend eternity with the Queen of Chaos.;) -They aren't innocent, though, don't you see! They're Drow!!
Rauric 12-10-07, 02:12 PM	-They aren't innocent, though, don't you see! They're Drow!! Oi!
Lord Karsus 12-10-07, 02:35 PM	-See, now it makes sense.
Fire_Wraith 12-11-07, 02:11 PM	True. I'm on the soft-hearted side though...:) I'd like to mention that the recent novel The Gossamer Plain addresses this very issue we are talking about--what happens to the child of an evil mother if the the mother is killed and the child dies in the womb? I thought it was quite a good novel, in spite of the fact that it will apparent involve the Spellplague later on (*shudders*). I liked this novel a lot, too, and am looking forward to the next two (isn't the second one supposed to be out now? I haven't seen it in any of the bookstores... off to Amazon I suppose). I agree, though, the notion of the Spellplague being involved makes me want to vomit in my helmet. :yuck: I'll keep reading the series though, if only because I like the main character. As far as the short story in the original question, while I like Lisa Smedman's novels a great deal, this tale seems to be based on a bit of theological reasoning that, while potentially valid, does seem to me like it's not how the Realms would likely work. Of course, I do think it has a lot of parallels in real-world religious ideas/doctrine/etc such as (correct me if I'm wrong) the notion of the souls of infants who die going to Purgatory, et cetera. Thus, I can see where she may have gotten the idea from.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-11-07, 04:05 PM	I liked this novel a lot, too, and am looking forward to the next two (isn't the second one supposed to be out now? I haven't seen it in any of the bookstores... off to Amazon I suppose). I agree, though, the notion of the Spellplague being involved makes me want to vomit in my helmet. :yuck: I'll keep reading the series though, if only because I like the main character. Same here--I enjoyed the first novel and see no reason not to read the next two...and no, the second book in the series is not out yet. As far as the short story in the original question, while I like Lisa Smedman's novels a great deal, this tale seems to be based on a bit of theological reasoning that, while potentially valid, does seem to me like it's not how the Realms would likely work. Of course, I do think it has a lot of parallels in real-world religious ideas/doctrine/etc such as (correct me if I'm wrong) the notion of the souls of infants who die going to Purgatory, et cetera. Thus, I can see where she may have gotten the idea from. Right, the theology in this story reminded me (too much) of real-world theology about the fate of infant souls that I've been exposed to. Like you said, things don't necessarily work that way in the Realms.
Kenzuki 12-13-07, 08:51 PM	I liked this novel a lot, too, and am looking forward to the next two (isn't the second one supposed to be out now? I haven't seen it in any of the bookstores... off to Amazon I suppose). I agree, though, the notion of the Spellplague being involved makes me want to vomit in my helmet. :yuck: I'll keep reading the series though, if only because I like the main character. As far as the short story in the original question, while I like Lisa Smedman's novels a great deal, this tale seems to be based on a bit of theological reasoning that, while potentially valid, does seem to me like it's not how the Realms would likely work. Of course, I do think it has a lot of parallels in real-world religious ideas/doctrine/etc such as (correct me if I'm wrong) the notion of the souls of infants who die going to Purgatory, et cetera. Thus, I can see where she may have gotten the idea from. Actually, it's Unbaptised Children that supposedly go to Purgatory. Though Protestants openly reject this notion and believe that a child who is an infant and doesn't know the difference between right and wrong goes to heaven no matter what the state of the mother or father is. Now once they do know the difference.....well that's another whole can of worms.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-14-07, 10:51 AM	Actually, it's Unbaptised Children that supposedly go to Purgatory. That would also apply to stillborns and miscarried children, as well.
Kenzuki 12-15-07, 07:38 AM	That would also apply to stillborns and miscarried children, as well. Which I've always thought was silly myself.
Stigger 12-15-07, 12:04 PM	Not if you consider that as soon as a child moves it supposedly possesses a soul. Now just when that actually happens is a whole other debate. But this is treading a little into dangerous territory with that arguement.
Pyrogen 12-21-07, 12:19 PM	Hi back again. Just to clarify, in Catholic tradition the question of where unbaptised infants go has always been something that has been open to debate but somewhere along the line it was decided that in the absence of a definitive answer they go to LIMBO. This is not the same as purgatory. It is a state of bliss but minus the beatific vision of God. Purgatory is where souls spend time being cleansed (purged - hence the name) of the inperfections that remain after they die. Saints miss out this stage because it is assumed they have led virtuous lives (or died heroic deaths for the faith) which absolves the need for cleansing. In fact, in hardline Protestant tradition all unbaptised babies go to HELL because they are infected with original sin and predestined for damnation. Naturally a lot of people felt this could not be right since it spoke of a very nasty vengeful god, not a good loving forgiving one, so modern thinking has tended to shy away from this idea. Getting back to the Realms the problem does seem to be introducing religious ideas from our own world into a very different scheme of things. I found the bit about the corrupt priests of Selune in the Road of the Patriarch novel to be somewhat absurd since a) they were offering something that sounded rather more like Catholic indulgences and b) they were encroaching on the territory of Kelemvor, so somewhere along the line a priest of the God of the Dead (or several of them) would turn up to put them straight. (And one would have thought Selune would have done something about it too) Instead we were asked to believe that this practice had gone on many years without anyone (deity or servants of deity) doing anything about it. If you have a world with lots of religions and different gods, and most ordinary people are offering up prayers constantly to all sorts of deities to gain favours or avoid punishments, then the whole False and Faithless ideas are a bit of a nonsense, since the only people who could ever really be considered False are actual clerics who represent a deity and the only people who could be considered faithless must have made a conscious choice to reject the gods, which given the evidence for deities all around them would be foolishly perverse. Which is why I originally posted the question because to my mind on the day the baby was born its parents would have dedicated it to whichever god was most relevant to them - Corellon for elves, Moradin for dwarves, Chauntea or possibly Lathander for most human peasants, etc. I just wish the novel writers (or those who must surely be asked to approve the plot hooks for their novels/short stories) would think about the implications of introducing real world ideas into Faerun.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-21-07, 12:28 PM	Hi back again. Just to clarify, in Catholic tradition the question of where unbaptised infants go has always been something that has been open to debate but somewhere along the line it was decided that in the absence of a definitive answer they go to LIMBO. Right, that's what I've heard, but I recall that that isn't an official Vatican teaching anyway. And of course, to my mind, it's still silly (no offense to anyone, but that's MY opinion). Limbo or purgatory, my original point doesn't change. :) I just wish the novel writers (or those who must surely be asked to approve the plot hooks for their novels/short stories) would think about the implications of introducing real world ideas into Faerun. I totally agree.
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 12:38 PM	I just wish the novel writers (or those who must surely be asked to approve the plot hooks for their novels/short stories) would think about the implications of introducing real world ideas into Faerun. -Here, here! That part in Road of the Patriarch was interesting, but totally out of place. What's new, though?
Faraer 12-21-07, 05:05 PM	Some people learn to 'think Realms' relatively easily because they share some of its aesthetics or values, for others it's a long haul. Personally, I don't want to read Realms books by people not enthusiastic enough about the setting to get to know it, but Wizards may prefer the freedom of a larger author pool. And it really is these intangibles which are the body of the situation ('problem' to some) of shared-world writing, not the facts and figures, which can more simply be advised on or fixed in editing.
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 05:18 PM	Personally, I don't want to read Realms books by people not enthusiastic enough about the setting to get to know it, but Wizards may prefer the freedom of a larger author pool. And it really is these intangibles which are the body of the situation ('problem' to some) of shared-world writing, not the facts and figures, which can more simply be advised on or fixed in editing. -Well, in his defense, I can't recall anything that says that Selūne's priests and priestess' don't sell 'pardons' equivalent to condolences anywhere, or that corrupt priests/priestess' of any religion don't try to fleece the flock. I'm sure that such a concept isn't foreign in the Realms. However, the way that particular scene unfolded was a little "too real" for my tastes. NOTE: I'm talking about Road of the Patriarch here. I got topics mixed up.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-21-07, 07:30 PM	I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I didn't care for the "Selunite indulgences" concept, either. I can suspend my sense of disbelief, but not that much.
Stigger 12-21-07, 07:32 PM	That's indulgences... and I really can't see a goodly faith condoning buying off your sins. Neutral ones sure, I could maybe see that, but not really even then due to the known reality of the gods. Indulgences carry a connotation of no actual penance with them, at least in the context of our own world's history, and say very little for the spirituality of the person buying them. I just can't see priesthoods encouraging that kind of thinking, regardless of their alignment. Next thing we know, we're going to be seeing stuff like universal permanent pardoning of sins for going on a crusade...
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 07:49 PM	I'm sure I've mentioned this before, but I didn't care for the "Selunite indulgences" concept, either. I can suspend my sense of disbelief, but not that much. That's indulgences... and I really can't see a goodly faith condoning buying off your sins. Neutral ones sure, I could maybe see that, but not really even then due to the known reality of the gods. Indulgences carry a connotation of no actual penance with them, at least in the context of our own world's history, and say very little for the spirituality of the person buying them. I just can't see priesthoods encouraging that kind of thinking, regardless of their alignment. Next thing we know, we're going to be seeing stuff like universal permanent pardoning of sins for going on a crusade... -Like I said, a corrupt priests/priestess' of any religion aren't uncommon. Scams aren't uncommon, either. A corrupt priest/preistess in a backwater village fleecing money from the peasants with some sort of indulgence scam sounds plausible to me. "You know, if you donate more to the church, High Priest Suchandsuch will be able to guarantee you a place in Selūne's kingdom after you die". It's not like the average farmer knows that his deity comes from him on the Fugue Plane when he dies, anyway, so why not? -In the context presented in Road of the Partiarch, I don't buy it, and feel that it's too realistic. That a high priest of Selūne in a large center, such as Calimport would be able to get away with scamming worshippers is a little hard to believe. That a priest/priestess in a small, backwater village can doesn't stretch the imagination.
Stigger 12-21-07, 08:05 PM	Scamming worshippers like what's been described seems like more of an alignment violation thing to me... hard to believe a cleric would actually keep their 'clericness' for too long trying to pull off crap like that, unless another deity stepped in and started granting them spells and such to 'cover-up' the fall. For laity, I don't see the gods paying much attention, but clerics just seem like they'd get a bit more attention than the rest of the population. I really can't even see the small backwater thing lasting too long to be honest. Maybe as a pseudo-heresy because the cleric didn't know better, that I could see, but not much beyond that.
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 08:28 PM	Scamming worshippers like what's been described seems like more of an alignment violation thing to me... hard to believe a cleric would actually keep their 'clericness' for too long trying to pull off crap like that, unless another deity stepped in and started granting them spells and such to 'cover-up' the fall. For laity, I don't see the gods paying much attention, but clerics just seem like they'd get a bit more attention than the rest of the population. I really can't even see the small backwater thing lasting too long to be honest. -Well, since this is Selūne we're talking about, having Shar undermine her sister makes perfect sense.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-21-07, 08:56 PM	I'd also like to mention that apparently this "Selunite Indulgence" program as described in RotP was implied to have been going on for years and years--at least as long as Artemis Entreri has been alive (and he's about 40 years old by now). Not arguing with anyone, just throwing that out there. :)
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 10:32 PM	I'd also like to mention that apparently this "Selunite Indulgence" program as described in RotP was implied to have been going on for years and years--at least as long as Artemis Entreri has been alive (and he's about 40 years old by now). Not arguing with anyone, just throwing that out there. :) -No, like I've been saying, that particular instance isn't too well thought out.
Stigger 12-22-07, 11:23 AM	This is why I don't read novels...
Pyrogen 12-22-07, 12:05 PM	The size of the city and the length of time was my whole point. I would grant a priest in a rustic backwater getting away with it, at least for a short tme but a high priest and his entire clergy going along with it in a big city? At some point wouldn't someone object, pray to Selune for guidance, etc, and receive some sort of answer back. Wouldn't Selune refuse to answer the prayers of the guilty parties in their other activities until they atoned for what they were doing? Then you have the fact that they are encroaching on another god's patch. Kelemvor (and before him Myrkul) plus Jergal are responsible for the aspects of death, the dead, proper burial and it is inconceivable that in such a large centre they wouldn't have at least some sort of representation, given that Kelemvor's dogma states "Let no human die a natural death in all Faerun without one of Kelemvor's clerics at his/her side". Therefore one presumes they have a sufficient presence across the entire continent that people will know this and be able to use the cleric if they so wish. So if people were worried about the fate of a loved one they would naturally go to a cleric of Kelemvor. Even if the cleric gave them bad news about the relative, it would still be hard for a cleric of another faith to exploit this so openly because it would be undermining the faith of Kelemvor and his priests wouldn't stand for it. And on the topic I originally raised, the cleric of Kelemvor at the bedside of the dying person would be able to remind them to pledge themselves to a deity before death just in case they hadn't ever taken an actual patron, whilst acknowledging and praying to the gods. Whilst this wouldn't help someone who died an unnatural death, the teaching would be wide enough known that very few people would not have some form of notional patron that they would pray to in times of danger and to whom they would consign their soul on death.
Mirtek 12-22-07, 12:35 PM	Hi back again. Just to clarify, in Catholic tradition the question of where unbaptised infants go has always been something that has been open to debate but somewhere along the line it was decided that in the absence of a definitive answer they go to LIMBO. This is not the same as purgatory. It is a state of bliss but minus the beatific vision of God. Purgatory is where souls spend time being cleansed (purged - hence the name) of the inperfections that remain after they die. Saints miss out this stage because it is assumed they have led virtuous lives (or died heroic deaths for the faith) which absolves the need for cleansing. In fact, in hardline Protestant tradition all unbaptised babies go to HELL because they are infected with original sin and predestined for damnation. Naturally a lot of people felt this could not be right since it spoke of a very nasty vengeful god, not a good loving forgiving one, so modern thinking has tended to shy away from this idea. AFAIK the catholic church has just recently (sometime in 2007) finally decided that these baby souls go straight to god (even if unbaptised). Their last council finally found some passage in the script to reach this conclusion. Eidt: See here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5406552.stm)
Suin Bahhar 12-23-07, 10:27 AM	And on the topic I originally raised, the cleric of Kelemvor at the bedside of the dying person would be able to remind them to pledge themselves to a deity before death just in case they hadn't ever taken an actual patron, whilst acknowledging and praying to the gods. Whilst this wouldn't help someone who died an unnatural death, the teaching would be wide enough known that very few people would not have some form of notional patron that they would pray to in times of danger and to whom they would consign their soul on death. Bedside clerics of Kelemvor guiding souls of babies to the domain of the god the priest thinks is best for the child could work too. I think your view closely matches how things go for commoners. But adventurers how must they be guided?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-23-07, 05:07 PM	AFAIK the catholic church has just recently (sometime in 2007) finally decided that these baby souls go straight to god (even if unbaptised). Their last council finally found some passage in the script to reach this conclusion. Eidt: See here (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/5406552.stm) Thanks for the link. It also seems to confirm what I thought--that the concept of limbo was never a part of official church doctrine.
Stigger 12-23-07, 07:07 PM	There's a lot of stuff that's accepted as being part of Catholic canon that never actually has been surprisingly... pop culture religion at its finest.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 07:14 PM	And then there's the Divine Comedy.. Which indeed does make Limbo quite prominent. I really don't follow what the Church says is canon and what isn't, since the Protestant Reformation pretty much eliminated the idea of Church 'canon' in my opinion.
Stigger 12-23-07, 07:19 PM	Only for non-Catholics. ;)
GothicDan 12-23-07, 08:19 PM	Again, in my opinion. Then again, I think Martin Luther was one of the smartest guys around in the Church. Seems silly to have fully integrated tons of pagan Roman rituals into Christianity...
Pyrogen 12-24-07, 12:46 PM	Not all Martin Luther's ideas were great. What the Reformation did was destroy a lot that was good and perfectly reasonable along with the corrupt. Here in the British Isles much of the earlier druidic culture had been intergrated into Christianity, thus achieving a continuity of worship that was to the benefit of the faith and lives of the people. In fact that was probably the reason it caught on the way it did in places like Wales and Ireland. Quote from Taliesin (great Welsh poet) "Christ the Word was from the beginning our Teacher and we never lost his teaching... there was never a time when the druids of Britain held not his doctrines." Quote from Saint Columba "Christ is my druid." Sacred wells and other places were simply rededicated and people went on worshiping as before. Nothing wrong with that as it would be rather strange if nothing in the original religions came from god and it meant that the celtic Christians retained their close connection to and reverence for the natural world. Reverence for the dead and praying to them and for them was also something that had been an integral part of many religions including the ancient Jewish faith. Then along comes the Reformation and says that's all wrong and you mustn't do it. (This is a little hobby horse of mine so don't get me started). Suggest we get back to the Realms pronto!
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 02:15 AM	Bedside clerics of Kelemvor guiding souls of babies to the domain of the god the priest thinks is best for the child could work too. -That sounds good, too. Clerics of Kelemvor give 'em a little "note", to tell Kelemvor where to send 'em. :) Reverence for the dead and praying to them and for them was also something that had been an integral part of many religions including the ancient Jewish faith. -Not worshipping or anything like that, however.
Stigger 12-26-07, 04:13 AM	Again, in my opinion. Then again, I think Martin Luther was one of the smartest guys around in the Church. Seems silly to have fully integrated tons of pagan Roman rituals into Christianity... They integrated tons of pagan ritual, period, not just Roman. Had they not, religious history would likely have been very different on quite a few points, and even bloodier than it already is. And when they tried to stamp out a lot of that pagan practice later on, things got very ugly indeed.
GothicDan 12-26-07, 10:50 AM	My point was: changing religion to promote its success doesn't validate it from a religious point of view. I know all about the integration of rituals, but the Catholic Church went a bit overkill if you ask me, being a student of Roman literature to an extent, and a freelance researcher of both Roman and Etruscan religion. It seems to me they did little more than replace Mithras with Jesus and kept all of their pagan stuff. Not very Christian to me. So, yes, to me, Martin Luther did good work. And I'm someone who gave up Catholicism for Troth at one point - and then that for Atheism.
Stigger 12-26-07, 12:30 PM	Not very Christian (at least in a modern sense), but given their history of Co-opting anything that worked for them, it was remarkably Christian in some contexts. Kinda like the Chondathans that way really, just to steer it back on topic a bit.
GothicDan 12-26-07, 12:55 PM	Oh, yes, very Chondathan. *shifty eyes.* And I was speaking more of the original concept of Christianity - the Christianity that defied the Roman Empire because it WOULDN'T bend. The Christianity that, out of ALL other religions the Romans accepted, refused to co-opt other beliefs, and caused them to be punished where even the followers of Mithras and Yvwh weren't. :) Now, that wasn't very like the Chondathans.
Stigger 12-26-07, 02:13 PM	That whole monotheistic thing, particularly with its evangelical conversion leanings, wasn't exactly well suited to co-opting belief systems, but it was very good at expediently co-opting customs and practices that were reinterpreted to fit into their own belief systems better. They were very good at moving into new areas, taking a look at the local customs, and then spinning them through their own religion's filters to make them fit in with doctrine, making conquest (of a sorts) much easier for them to accomplish. Seems pretty Chondathan to me on that take... although I'd agree that they weren't even close on the refusal to adopt beliefs of others thing.
Elbereth_Silverleaf 12-30-07, 12:42 AM	In most Jewish traditions(of which I am a member), a fetus has no soul until it is born and takes its first breath, at that point becoming a person. Of course some Jews have abandoned this millenia held belief and been co-opted & corrupted by the radical right-wing christofascist belief that even a fertilized single celled zygote is a "person" with a soul. Oi vey!
Greater_Annihilator 12-30-07, 04:15 AM	Being Lutheran... The concept of the baptismal of children has changed a bit. Now there is still the orthodox idea that an unbaptized child will go "where ever" due to being tainted with the "original sin", but most, anymore, see it as the parents taking a pledge to God to raise the child in the faith, because even as Christians... unless you have a death bed confessional... Most will slip the mortal coil with a few marks still on the books and yet still don't face the fires due to being saved. Now how this has anything to do with where unpledged elven babies go... I have no idea. Elven babies don't have "original sin" and elven religion is polytheistic. I guess it would all come down to how "hardcore" or benign the elven deities are. Seeing how most racial deities live on the same plane together... Most likely they go there unclaimed and wander about in the beauty that plane offers. Pauper or king... Heaven is still heaven.
Arbourean 12-30-07, 04:24 AM	According to the Book of Exalted Deeds, such children go to Mount Celestia under Zaphkiel's protection. I'm sure there's a similar answer more specific to the Realms.
Stigger 12-30-07, 06:06 AM	Original sin doesn't exist as a concept in the Realms, so... guess we're gonna have to go with the BoED version of things, although I have no idea why a child would be headed off to a LG plane when at best I would term most of them as N.
Suin Bahhar 12-30-07, 07:20 AM	I can understand this as the travel to the LG plane is not the choice of the children but the active altruism of Zaphkiels servants. Kelemvors priests cant be everywhere to guide the babies ethereal travel so Zaphkiels servant try to catch the stray fledgeling souls. If completly unattended these babies could end up as lost souls or preyed upon by demons or other outsiders.
Lord Karsus 12-30-07, 08:03 AM	Original sin doesn't exist as a concept in the Realms, so... guess we're gonna have to go with the BoED version of things, although I have no idea why a child would be headed off to a LG plane when at best I would term most of them as N. -Because members of said plane feel beholden to protect the innocent, or something to that effect.
Suin Bahhar 12-30-07, 09:27 AM	Excactly. I can see the domain having lots of cherubs as a result. Or a soul storage cloud where fledgling souls can meditate before getting a second mortal life chance.
Lord Karsus 12-30-07, 09:45 AM	Or a soul storage cloud where fledgling souls can meditate before getting a second mortal life chance. -That's how I do it in my homebrew world, in a way. I liked the premise behind the adventure Bastion of Broken Souls, and adopted it somewhat. All "preborn" souls come from the Bastion of Souls- I jokingly think of it as a giant vat filled with greenish, ectoplasmic soul stuff. When a baby is born- any baby, no matter what race, whatever- a soul is released, and becomes that being. When you die, you can either go to the plane where your patron is, or return and "have another go" at life, completely unaware of all of your former memories, or whatever. -My basic understanding of Incarnum is that it's something like that, so I might eventually pick up that book, to implement those rules, maybe.
Elbereth_Silverleaf 12-30-07, 01:35 PM	Lord Karsus, Are you by chance Jewish as well? While in real life I don't ascribe to the myth/religous belief of "preborn" souls, in apocryphal Jewish beliefs there is something called "The Well of Souls". One persons religion is anothers myth, think about it.
Lord Karsus 12-30-07, 02:03 PM	Lord Karsus, Are you by chance Jewish as well? While in real life I don't ascribe to the myth/religous belief of "preborn" souls, in apocryphal Jewish beliefs there is something called "The Well of Souls". -Yes, we've been through this before. ;) -I, personally, am of the belief that, since all Jews were at revelation on Mt. Sinai, one's soul comes from, and eventually merges back with G-d.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-30-07, 06:17 PM	Elven babies don't have "original sin" and elven religion is polytheistic. I guess it would all come down to how "hardcore" or benign the elven deities are. Seeing how most racial deities live on the same plane together... Most likely they go there unclaimed and wander about in the beauty that plane offers. See, the reason why this issue of real world religion is relevant to the discussion is because the author of the story in question took a certain rule very literally: that if one doesn't choose a patron deity, they are screwed in the afterlife. According to this story, that means any child too young to think for himself (and therefore, choose a deity) is in danger of wandering the fugue plain by himself and being stolen away by demons. The story doesn't address whether or not parents can choose a deity for the child beforehand, or whether or not that particular cosmic system is a moral one to begin with.
Greater_Annihilator 12-30-07, 06:54 PM	See, the reason why this issue of real world religion is relevant to the discussion is because the author of the story in question took a certain rule very literally: that if one doesn't choose a patron deity, they are screwed in the afterlife. According to this story, that means any child too young to think for himself (and therefore, choose a deity) is in danger of wandering the fugue plain by himself and being stolen away by demons. The story doesn't address whether or not parents can choose a deity for the child beforehand, or whether or not that particular cosmic system is a moral one to begin with. Ah, but you seem to forget that the one link to real life and that of the Realms that does hold is simply that what we believe to happen and what actually happens may be very different. Sure in the Realms one can commune with their gods and they answer forthright, but like many of us, Joe Blow commoner can only go on what they think their God/Goddess has planned by their interpretation of doctrine. She may believe her unpledged child will go to the fugue plain because that is what she was told, but what her deities really do may be completely different.
WizO_Autumn 12-30-07, 06:58 PM	Due to the real-world religious discussion, I've brought this thread to the attention of the Community Management team.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-30-07, 07:41 PM	Ah, but you seem to forget that the one link to real life and that of the Realms that does hold is simply that what we believe to happen and what actually happens may be very different. Umm, no, I didn't forget anything. I'm discussing the story that started this whole topic. She may believe her unpledged child will go to the fugue plain because that is what she was told, but what her deities really do may be completely different. Not according to the story. Read it and you'll see what I mean.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 12:20 AM	She may believe her unpledged child will go to the fugue plain because that is what she was told, but what her deities really do may be completely different. -I understand the underlying theme that you are getting at, but why would deities purposely sew confusion? Why would a deity allow a holy text that says, "Such and such welcomes only those with XYZ attributes to his/her/its domain", if it were wrong?
Stigger 12-31-07, 01:57 AM	Well, the cynical answer would be to get the rubes in the door... the logical answer would be they probably wouldn't, while pointing out that it's not necessarily the deity writing or directly influencing the holy books.. and the optimistic answer being that they wouldn't.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 02:08 AM	-See, this is the kind of in-depth stuff that you can't find in other settings. :)
Pyrogen 12-31-07, 06:51 AM	Okay, so I've been looking at this again and I still find the whole Wall of the Faithless concept doesn't seem to fit the Forgotten Realms setting. According to the Campaign Guide everyone in the Realms knows you need a patron god and so parents would not overlook such an important thing. Elves would probably have their own belief that unless you do something totally contrary to his dogma, Corellon will always look after you and his priests would make sure that if it was necessary to actually dedicate a child to him to ensure their passage to Arvandor, then all elves would be aware of that fact. If it was not accepted that children are generally picked up by the most appropriate god to their parentage/race then it would seem that the majority of the souls residing in the Wall of the Faithless are going to be children - which surely none of the "good" deities of the Realms could condone. The Wall of the Faithless is meant to be a punishment of those individuals who are so egotistical they actually think they can do without the gods, or a way out for those individuals who are so full of self hatred that they would rather lose their sense of self. Given that it is fairly evident that the gods do exist in this world setting (so atheism would be illogical), it would actually be rather foolish not to take a patron, even without the existence of the wall, since it will be to your advantage to do so whether you are good or evil or simply neutral in outlook. I have also been repeatedly told on these boards that one should not imagine a monotheistic outlook and most people (other than clerics) will make offerings/prayers to other gods in addition to their main patron, even at times to those who are in direct conflict with them. Ed has said that it is perfectly possible for someone to worship both Eilistraae and Vhaeraun (certainly if they are of neutral alignment) and whilst they might not follow either particularly well as a result, this would not make them faithless but false. It is also perfectly in order for a sailor to make an offering to Valkur to ensure safe passage and then hedge his bets by making an appeasment offering to Umberlee to avert storms, etc. This does not demonstrate a lack of faith but a very clear awareness of how the deities can affect your life. So my question now is "How come there are meant to be so many faithless souls around that there are sufficient to make a wall?"
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 07:14 AM	Okay, so I've been looking at this again and I still find the whole Wall of the Faithless concept doesn't seem to fit the Forgotten Realms setting. -Correct. Like many other things in the Avatar series, the Wall of the Faithless is prety shoehorned in. As it stands now, anyway. In theory, it could be an interesting idea, if it were introduced a little differently/altered. According to the Campaign Guide everyone in the Realms knows you need a patron god and so parents would not overlook such an important thing. -Complications arise when, say, a mother dies in childbirth, causing her child to die as well. Now what? The Wall of the Faithless is meant to be a punishment of those individuals who are so egotistical they actually think they can do without the gods, or a way out for those individuals who are so full of self hatred that they would rather lose their sense of self. Given that it is fairly evident that the gods do exist in this world setting (so atheism would be illogical), it would actually be rather foolish not to take a patron, even without the existence of the wall, since it will be to your advantage to do so whether you are good or evil or simply neutral in outlook. -Not necessarily. Someone who is atheistic in the Realms might simply not believe in the Wall of the Faithless, chalking it up to a myth or legend designed to make weak minded people grovel at the feet of a deity- any deity. That deities are quite real doesn't necessarily mean that being atheistic is foolish. It can act as a handicap, though, sure. I have also been repeatedly told on these boards that one should not imagine a monotheistic outlook and most people (other than clerics) will make offerings/prayers to other gods in addition to their main patron, even at times to those who are in direct conflict with them. -Yep. You prey to whoever will get what you need done done. So my question now is "How come there are meant to be so many faithless souls around that there are sufficient to make a wall?" -Souls are stretchy. :cool: ;)
Alediran 12-31-07, 08:36 AM	-Yep. You prey to whoever will get what you need done done. I wonder which god I'll make my prey today. :D -Souls are stretchy. :cool: ;) That's why you don't have elven faithless souls in the wall, simply because elves have spirits, not souls. That is why there are also no elven children in the wall, since they are educated before they are born.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 08:39 AM	I wonder which god I'll make my prey today. :D -Moander. That's why you don't have elven faithless souls in the wall, simply because elves have spirits, not souls. That is why there are also no elven children in the wall, since they are educated before they are born. -Yep, and yep.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-31-07, 10:59 AM	That's why you don't have elven faithless souls in the wall, simply because elves have spirits, not souls. That is why there are also no elven children in the wall, since they are educated before they are born. Apparently the short story in question (I don't even remember the name) disagrees with that (well, sort of--the little innocent children don't go to a wall, they are just lost and alone on the Fugue Plane and subject to be kidnapped by demons unless an altruistic soul kindly commits suicide for their sake, and magically ends up right next to them as their Fugue Plane guide!).
Stigger 12-31-07, 01:26 PM	That's got to be the most idiotic idea I've yet to hear for the afterlife...
Pyrogen 01-01-08, 07:29 AM	It is not a matter of grovelling at the feet of deities but pure self interest. The gods exist, everyone knows this and there is definite evidence that praying to them does have benefits for the individual concerned. People who follow a certain deity who best represents their interests do better than those who do not. Take a wizard who wants to partake of the powers of the Shadow Weave - would he do better sucking up to Shar or saying "Stuff Shar - no way am I grovelling at her feet"? The answer is obvious because the one who opts for the latter response will suddenly find they no longer have access to the Shadow Weave. Or take the Bard who values their independence above all things. Would that really stop them from praying to Corellon/Eilistraae/Oghma, depending on their race, education, etc, in the hope of receiving greater inspiration, the gift of new songs, or whatever? If they receive nothing they have lost nothing but if their faith is rewarded, they have gained from it and still lost nothing. It is hard to envisage anyone who would be bone headed enough not to espouse some smattering of faith in view of the benefits of so doing regardless of the implications to them in the after life. In fact given the popularity of evil deities it would seem that the consequences in the after life are actually the least important aspect of the decision, since the fate of their followers often makes the Wall of the Faithless seem preferable. Imagine an eternity of servitude to Lolth with no respite and no way out or becoming a larva in the Barrens of Doom and Despair if you have followed Bane. Yet I doubt many evil practioners actually either know this is their fate or care if they do - the short term benefits actually being much more important to them than the long term fate of their soul.
Suin Bahhar 01-01-08, 10:25 AM	It is hard to envisage anyone who would be bone headed enough not to espouse some smattering of faith in view of the benefits of so doing regardless of the implications to them in the after life. In fact given the popularity of evil deities it would seem that the consequences in the after life are actually the least important aspect of the decision, since the fate of their followers often makes the Wall of the Faithless seem preferable. Imagine an eternity of servitude to Lolth with no respite and no way out or becoming a larva in the Barrens of Doom and Despair if you have followed Bane. Yet I doubt many evil practioners actually either know this is their fate or care if they do - the short term benefits actually being much more important to them than the long term fate of their soul. The planar afterlife for evil petitioners still holds the promiss of greater power, evils penultimate motor.