Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Slayergnome 07-02-07, 08:47 PM	I was curious about getting a list of all the pantheons of Toril and what happened to them. Anyone who can help out that would be great.
Lord Karsus 07-03-07, 12:44 AM	-Well, here is a large list of various FR deities: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Forgotten_Realms_deities -Now, what kind of information are you looking for, exactly?
Slayergnome 07-03-07, 03:42 AM	Was just curious of the various pantheons Toril has had..and perhaps making a list of the gods in them..and have they've transfered about whatnot. Just to give myself a better scope on the whole god issue with Toril.
Lord Karsus 07-03-07, 10:04 AM	-Gotcha. Well, the Demihuman Pantheons are pretty simple. Elves worship the Seldarine, Dwarves worship the Dwarven Pantheon, Dragons worship the Draconic Pantheon, Goblins worship the Goblinoid Pantheon, and so on. Humans, of course, is a bit more difficult. -The Faerūnian Pantheon is a misnomer, I think. There really isn't such thing as a unified Faerūnian Pantheon. In different areas, different deities are worshipped. Depending on how you want to break it down, every region has it's own pantheon, every culture has it's own pantheon, every city has it's own pantheon.
Yanagita Kunio 07-03-07, 10:19 AM	At a guess, the OP wants to know about the cultural pantheons that have contributed to the general body of "the Faerunian Pantheon" over time. While there are smaller sectionings of gods possible--as you said, state gods, city gods, et cetera--generally the sourcebooks reference deities in terms of the civilizational or regional culture that they were first (or at least know for) being worshipped in. For example, how in 2e supplements it refers to a deity originating in the Talfiric, Netherese, or Yuir pantheon before becoming more widely known. Slayergnome--that sound about right?
customdrapery 07-03-07, 10:29 AM	I've been trying to piece something like this together myself and I think you'll have to wait until Gray Richardson shows up and tells us whats what, but I'll give a short list that I've gathered. Netherese Amaunator Jannath Kozah Jergal Moander Mystryl/Mystra Selune Shar Targus Tyche (now Tymora and Beshaba) Talfiric Auril Chauntea Lathander Loviatar Malar Sune Talos Tempus Umberlee Coramshite Anach-Tyr Bhaelros Ibrandul Jhaamdathan Auppenser Borem of the Lake of Burning Mud Garagos Helm Murdane Rus Shaundakal This is far from a complete list, and is missing quite a few of the current deities who are either interlopers (Oghma, Silvanus, Mielikki) and were probably worshiped first in one or more of the above. It is also missing the ascended mortals like Torm and Ilmater. This also does not include the current manifestation of many of these gods. For instance, Jannath was an aspect of Chauntea and was just worshiped under a different name and Tempus and Targos duked it out and now Targus is Garagos (and possibly merged with another war god of Jhaamdathan origin of the same name). And to give credit where credit is due, much of this has been gathered from Gray Richardson's posts. You may also want to check out the current thread about the origins of the deities. Hope this helps.
Slayergnome 07-03-07, 10:37 AM	Yeah Yanagita Kunio and Customdrapery are onto what I am gunning for. Thanks alot by the way. A start is better then nothing.
customdrapery 07-03-07, 11:59 AM	I think part of the difficulty here is that we simply aren't given any information on the early pantheons other than their names and the occasional mention (like Tempus being Talfiric). The only one we know for sure is the Netherese, which comes from the Netheril box set. The rest has been distilled through since 1ed. I'm hoping for some new details (especially Jhaamdathan and Talfiric) in the Grand History of the Realms.
MarkusTay63 07-03-07, 02:50 PM	What I've come up with regarding lost pantheons and interlopers - At least some of the Norse Pantheon was active with the early Illuskans (Illu-Pozi). The sundering decemated those peoples ancestral tribal lands, and the only surviving god from those times is Tyr (whose portfolio has changed somewhat). The Cortae people, of whom only the Issacortae yet survive, used the Celtic Pantheon, of which only Silvanus remains. However, the island cultures may show some remnants as well - The worship of Gond (Ghoibne) in Lantan, and "The Wild Hunt" in Nimbral, along with the Druidic traditions of the Moonshaes. The Kalmyk, another race of Northern people who come from the mountains above the Ama Basin most likely brought in the Finnish Pantheon. This people gave birth to the Nar, Raumviran, and Suren, so their ancient bloodline is evident in several Faerūnian nations. Mielikki and Loviatar, and perhaps some aspect of Ilmater (although thats stretching it) still survive from this pantheon. Also, Talona is most likely the new name the Finnish Goddess Kiputytto is going by. I have worked out an early culture living on the southern coast of the Inner Sea before the Mulan broke from Imaskar and took over the region. The Turami were a dark-skinned people, originally from the south, and lived in this area as well, but not along the coasts. The coastal people I have tentatively named the "Dathans", as in 'Chondathan' or 'Jamdathan'. I have some history worked out for them, but none of it is canon. I suspect Tyche originated with these people, and the Jamdathan and Netherese may have later on adopted these gods under different names. They would have used the Greco-Roman Pantheon. BTW, Sylvanus is the Roman name for the Celtic god, because his name was lost in time (no early written traditions with the celts), so this would carry over and Sivanus would be the name the Dathans knew the Cortae god under. As for other functioning Pantheons, the Oriental parts of Kara-Tur use a mixture of Chinese and Japanese gods in their pantheon. There is another pantheon in Zakhara, lead by the Supreme God Fate. Another pantheon is the Maztican, which we are trying to connect to the Draconic in another thread (there is some correlation, and the Draconic is another Pantheon functioning in the Realms). Most people don't realize that the Vedic Pantheon is present on Toril, in southern Kara-Tur and the area known as the Malatra (and probably in northeastern Zakhara and the Utter East at one point). Then you have all of the demi-human pantheons (Orc, Goblin, etc), the 'Scaley Gods' of the Serpent Folk, the Giant Pantheon.... The list goes on and on. There are also just as many 'undiscovered' regions on Toril as their are known, and suffice it to say I'm sure they all have their own pantheons (although I'm thinking the Celestial Bureaucracy has dominion over at least parts of Anchorome as well).
Gray Richardson 07-03-07, 07:06 PM	I have been trying to track down all the sources I can find, and as best I can reconstruct, below are the human gods grouped into their human proto-pantheons and pantheons of origin. Information that is missing or speculative is noted with a question mark: Name; Rank; Align; Pantheon; Origin; Geographic Origin; Notes/Status Ubtao; G; N; Chultan; Interloper; Immigrant deity from the homeland of the Tabaxi; Anach-tyr; ?; ?; Coramshite; Coramshite; Coramshan; merged with Tyr Bhaelros; ?; ?; Coramshite; Aspect of the original god of Destruction ; ?; Ibrandul; ?; ?; Coramshite; Coramshite; ?; killed by Shar Azuth; L; LN; Coramshite?; Ascended Human; ?; Akadi; G; N; Elemental; Ascended Elemental?; Elemental Plane of Air; Grumbar; G; N; Elemental; Ascended Elemental?; Elemental Plane of Earth; Istishia; G; N; Elemental; Ascended Elemental?; Elemental Plane of Water; Kossuth; G; N/LN; Elemental; Ascended Elemental?; Elemental Plane of Fire; Lurue; D; CG; Fey?; daughter of Selūne, possibly an aspect/fragment of Mystryl?; ?; Shiallia; D; NG; Fey?; goddess of korreds; ?; Auppenser; ?; ?; Jhaamdath; son of Oghma and Mystryl?; ?; dormant Borem; ?; ?; Jhaamdath; ?; ?; Garagos; D; CN; Jhaamdath; Aspect of the original god of War; ?; Helm; I; LN; Jhaamdath; ?; ?; Murdane; ?; ?; Jhaamdath; daughter of Auppenser?; ?; died during the Dawn Cataclysm Silvanus; G; N; Jhaamdath; Interloper; Celtic Pantheon; Talona; L; CE; Jhaamdath; Original goddess of Disease; ?; Valigan Thirdborn; ?; ?; Jhaamdath; Ascended Human or son of Auppenser?; Jhaamdath area; killed by Tyr Eldath; L; NG; Jhaamdath?; ?; ?; Lliira; L; CG; Jhaamdath?; ?; Church centered in Sembia?; Milil; L; NG; Jhaamdath?; ?; ?; Waukeen; L; N; Jhaamdath?; ?; ?; Camnod the Unseen; L; ?; Lost God; ?; Westgate area; Bowed to Bane, current status unknown Haask; L; ?; Lost God; ?; Westgate area; Bowed to Bane, current status unknown Maram of the Great Spear; L; ?; Lost God; ?; Westgate area; Bowed to Bane, current status unknown Tyranthraxus; L; ?; Lost God; Posessor spirit, possibly a yugoloth lord; Westgate area; Disembodied Spirit Hoar; D; LN; Mulhorand; Interloper (originally the Egyptian god Anhur); Egyptian Pantheon; Sharess; D; CG; Mulhorand; originally Bast who merged with Zandilar; Egyptian & Yuir Pantheons; Amaunator; G; LN; Netherese; Incarnation of the Sun; ?; Dead Beshaba; I; CE; Netherese; Split from Tyche; ?; Jannath; ?; ?; Netherese; Born of Selūne and Shar, the original goddess of life throughout Realmspace; ?; Jergal; D; LN; Netherese; ?; Chultengar/lands north of the Lake of Steam; probably ascended spellweaver or interloper from spellweaver pantheon Kozah; ?; ?; Netherese; Aspect of the original god of Destruction ; ?; Moander; ?; ?; Netherese; Ascended Demon; ?; Mystra; G; NG/LN; Netherese; Mystryl reincarnated; ?; Mystryl; ?; ?; Netherese; Essence of magic torn from Selūne & Shar; ?; Selūne; I; CG; Netherese; Original goddess of light; ?; Shar; G; NE; Netherese; Original goddess of darkness; ?; Targus; ?; ?; Netherese; Aspect of the original god of War; ?; became Garagos Tyche; ?; ?; Netherese; Interloper; Greek Pantheon; Tymora; I; CG; Netherese; Split from Tyche; ?; Herne; ?; ?; North; Interloper; Britannic Pantheon; subsumed into Malar Velsharoon; D; NE; Recent; Ascended Human (1368); Thay; Shaundakul; L; CN; Rus; ?; ?; Mask; L; NE; Rus?; ?; Thesk?; Auril; L; NE; Talfiric; around since before the fall of Lolth; ?; Chauntea; G; NG; Talfiric; Aspect of the original goddess of Life; ?; Kiputytto; ?; ?; Talfiric; Interloper; Finnish Pantheon; subsumed into Talona Lathander; G; NG; Talfiric; Incarnation of the Sun; ?; Loviatar; L; LE; Talfiric; Interloper; Finnish Pantheon; Malar; L; CE; Talfiric; ?; ?; Mielikki; I; NG; Talfiric; Interloper; Finnish Pantheon; Sune; G; CG; Talfiric; ?; ?; Talos; G; CE; Talfiric; ?; ?; Tempus; G; CN; Talfiric; Aspect of the original god of War; ?; Umberlee; I; CE; Talfiric; ?; ?; Valkur; D; CG; Talfiric; Ascended Human; Mintarn; Savras; D; LN; The South; Ascended Human; Halruuan wizard; Tiamat; L; LE; Unther; Interloper; Babylonian Pantheon; Nobanion; D; LG; Wemic; Interloper (only a few centuries ago); (aspect of Aslan?); Elikarashae; ?; ?; Yuir; ?; ?; Magnar the Bear; ?; ?; Yuir; ?; ?; Relkath of the Infinite Branches; ?; ?; Yuir; ?; ?; The Simbul; ?; ?; Yuir; ?; ?; Zandilar the Dancer; ?; ?; Yuir; ?; ?; Bane; I; LE; ?; Ascended Human; born on another world; Bhaal; ?; ?; ?; Ascended Human; ?; Cyric; G; CE; ?; Ascended Human; Zhentil Keep; Deneir; L; NG; ?; Ascended Human?; Church founded in 25 DR; Finder Wyvernspur; D; CN; ?; Ascended Human; ?; Gargauth; D; LE; ?; Ascended Devil; ?; Gond; I; N; ?; Coramshite?; ?; Gwaeron Windstrom; D; NG; ?; Ascended Human; ?; Ilmater; I; LG; ?; Ascended Human; The South?; Kelemvor; G; LN; ?; Ascended Human; ?; Myrkul; ?; ?; ?; Ascended Human; ?; Oghma; G; N; ?; Interloper; Celtic Pantheon; Red Knight; D; LN; ?; Ascended Human; ?; Siamorphe; D; LN; ?; Ascended Human; Waterdeep; replaced the prior Siamorphe Torm; L; LG; ?; Ascended Human; Border Kingdoms area, south of the Lake of Steam; Tyr; G; LG; ?; Interloper; Teutonic Pantheon;
ripvanwormer 07-04-07, 10:05 AM	As for other functioning Pantheons, the Oriental parts of Kara-Tur use a mixture of Chinese and Japanese gods in their pantheon. Not exactly. The Kara-Turan gods are their own thing, inspired by various Asian gods but not precisely the same as them. For example, the Nine Immortals: Nung Chiang: Agriculture and Fertility Kwan Ying: Compassion, Mercy, and Joy Chan Cheng: War, Martial Arts, Combat, and Bravery Ch'en Hsiang: poets, authors, musicians Ai Ch'ing: Love, marriage Fa Kuan: Laws and justice Hsing Yong: Fortune and prosperity Shu Chia: Artificers and the arts Chih Shih: History, lore, and tradition None of these are actual Chinese deities, though Kwan Ying is very similar to one. There is another pantheon in Zakhara, lead by the Supreme God Fate. Calling Fate a god is a misnomer. That's not what she is. Fate isn't worshiped as a god, and doesn't lead the gods in any recognizable way. She is "that heavenly force who was like a goddess, yet not a goddess." She is simply Fate. Zakharans don't believe in a supreme god, and their pantheon has no leader.
Lord Karsus 07-04-07, 06:17 PM	Elikarashae; ?; ?; Yuir; ?; ?; Magnar the Bear; ?; ?; Yuir; ?; ?; Relkath of the Infinite Branches; ?; ?; Yuir; ?; ?; The Simbul; ?; ?; Yuir; ?; ?; Zandilar the Dancer; ?; ?; Yuir; ?; ?; -Though you undoubtedly know already, all of these Yuir deties have been consumed by other Elven deities, and Bast. I figure that ought to go in the 'notes' section.
Zandilar 07-05-07, 08:28 PM	Heya, Elikarashae; ?; ?; Yuir; ?; ?; Magnar the Bear; ?; ?; Yuir; ?; ?; Relkath of the Infinite Branches; ?; ?; Yuir; ?; ?; The Simbul; ?; ?; Yuir; ?; ?; Zandilar the Dancer; ?; ?; Yuir; ?; ?; Elikarashae merged with Shevarash Magnar the Bear merged with Rillifane Rallathil Relkath of the Infinite Branches also merged with Rillifane Rallathil The Simbul merged with Labelas Enoreth (though she originally had a choice between him and Erevan Ilesere) Zandilar the Dancer merged with Bast to form Sharess
Lord Karsus 07-05-07, 08:36 PM	-Thank you, Zands. I was going to add that myself, but you saved me the trouble! :)
XHereticX 07-05-07, 11:23 PM	Not exactly. The Kara-Turan gods are their own thing, inspired by various Asian gods but not precisely the same as them. For example, the Nine Immortals: Nung Chiang: Agriculture and Fertility Kwan Ying: Compassion, Mercy, and Joy Chan Cheng: War, Martial Arts, Combat, and Bravery Ch'en Hsiang: poets, authors, musicians Ai Ch'ing: Love, marriage Fa Kuan: Laws and justice Hsing Yong: Fortune and prosperity Shu Chia: Artificers and the arts Chih Shih: History, lore, and tradition None of these are actual Chinese deities, though Kwan Ying is very similar to one. Calling Fate a god is a misnomer. That's not what she is. Fate isn't worshiped as a god, and doesn't lead the gods in any recognizable way. She is "that heavenly force who was like a goddess, yet not a goddess." She is simply Fate. Zakharans don't believe in a supreme god, and their pantheon has no leader. For one, don't the Kara-Turans worship the Celestial Bueacracy, led by the Celestial Emperor? The Nine Immortals I would assume are just hero-deities. Some think Fate is the same being as Ao, or maybe she is another overdeity completly.
ripvanwormer 07-06-07, 02:34 AM	For one, don't the Kara-Turans worship the Celestial Bueacracy, led by the Celestial Emperor? The Nine Immortals I would assume are just hero-deities. Some of them do. The Nine Immortals are much more powerful than mere hero-deities, but they're part of the Celestial Bureaucracy. Some think Fate is the same being as Ao, or maybe she is another overdeity completly. I don't think calling her an overdeity is useful. The term doesn't really mean anything in game terms, and it pigeonholes her unpleasantly. She's simply Fate, and that's enough.
MarkusTay63 07-06-07, 03:42 AM	Some of the gods in the CB are the same as the Chinese ones, so there is some correlation. After 15,000+ years names are bound to get changed. However, I do agree that the Nine Immortals are different, and are native to Abeir-Toril - there are not even the same number of them. I think the immortals would be of demi-god status. In other words, they have no avatar except for themselves. There is also several different groups of beings between the gods and mortals besides the Immortals, called Kami. Greater Kami could even be low-ranking gods, while the least of the lesser kami are little more then animal spirits. Its not easy to put that Pantheon into the normal D&D deific structure. There is also three seperate religions, but many people practice all three in varying degrees. The Tabotans, Khazari, Ra-Khati, etc all follow K-T's version of Buddhism - 'The Way', but their 'version' is VERY different then that practiced by the Shou (and T'u Lung, Wa, and Kozakura), and although they use similar terminolgy in the western version, all three of those nations do not agree with how the other does it (and even have sects within the same country that fight). Its very much like RW Buddism, in fact. ;) Fate may not rule the gods as in RW pantheons, but she is the underlying power behind all of their beliefs. "Even the gods are subject to the whims of fate". There is also 'The Adama', which is a strong set of beliefs that govern the actions of the Muhjein peoples (Shining Lands, Semphar, Murghōm, and whatever is left of Solon and maybe parts of Ulgarth. They still believe in all the other gods, but it is a seperate set of 'rules to live by', very much like K-T's 'Path', and even in some respects like the rules surrounding Fate and the Al-Qadim faith. The Adama is called Muhjari in the lands of Semphar and Murghōm, BTW, but it is the same religion. However, they believe in a different 'saviour figure' (devine teacher) then the Adama.
Darakhoranon 07-06-07, 04:46 PM	However, there IS a group of immortals in chinese mythology - I don“t remember how many, but the similarities are there... As are the differences...
MarkusTay63 07-06-07, 06:34 PM	They have eight, but only Ch'en Hsiang may be the same as the RW one (Han Hsiang-tzu). The CB also has such beings as the Jade Ladies, Rice (grain) Spirits, Moon Women, Spirit Warriors (similar to the Norse einherjer, but they instilled courage in living fighters), Lords of Karma, Sages, etc... All of whom are not deities, but work for the deities and are more then mortal (Celestials?) Even the demons of the CB (Oni) work for the Bureaucracy. Also, the Sages are probably the same beings as the Padhrasattvas (Buhdas) of the western branch of 'The Way'. They don't call there religions the "Eight Million Gods" for nothing. ;)
ripvanwormer 07-06-07, 06:59 PM	However, there IS a group of immortals in chinese mythology - I don“t remember how many, but the similarities are there... As are the differences... I don't see any similarities at all between the Nine Immortals of Kara-Tur and the Eight Immortals (http://planewalker.com/encyclopedia/encyclopedia.php?intEntryID=1587) of Taoist myth. They're entirely different concepts. The Eight Immortals, or Pa Hsien, are a group of Taoist heroes who became immortal through various means. Their powers aren't particularly godlike in scale; they simply don't die. The Nine Immortals were never mortal, as far as I can tell. They're mighty gods who, in their own small way, helped to create the world. Each only made a single valley, but this was at the dawn of time, when the Celestial Emperor was creating (or reshaping) the rest of Kara-Tur. There were gods in Kara-Tur before the Celestial Bureaucracy conquered it, beings like the Black Leopard, but the Nine Immortals have been in Kara-Tur as long as the Bureaucracy has. Unlike the Pa Hsien, they have clear portfolios, areas of control over major aspects of society, just as gods like Cyric, Azuth, Lathander, Sune, Tymora, and Sharess do in Faerun. Kwan Ying could very well be the same as the intermediate goddess Kuan Yin from the Chinese pantheon, though I don't see any other parallels quite so obvious. That's the level of being they are, I think, rather than mere demigods. They shouldn't be compared to the Pa Hsien.
Taelohn 07-06-07, 07:12 PM	This (http://www.dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3500&start=1) page has information on more than a hundred D&D pantheons (including over a dozen from the Realms). Click the links at the top of each section for the text files.
Soulsong 07-08-07, 07:50 PM	The Cortae people, of whom only the Issacortae yet survive, used the Celtic PantheonWhat are you using as evidence for this? It is an intiguing idea, but there is a huge distance to be covered and I am not aware of any similarities, associations, etc... The Kalmyk, another race of Northern people who come from the mountains above the Ama Basin most likely brought in the Finnish Pantheon.Same here. This people gave birth to the Nar, Raumviran, and SurenWho and where are the Suren? I have worked out an early culture living on the southern coast of the Inner Sea before the Mulan broke from Imaskar and took over the region. ... I suspect Tyche originated with these people, and the Jamdathan and Netherese may have later on adopted these gods under different names. They would have used the Greco-Roman Pantheon.The 2e Bloodstone Lands supplement mentioned worship of several other Greek Gods (Athena, Poseidon, ...) in Damara/Impiltur. Anyone have any resolution/inclusion status of these gods?
MarkusTay63 07-08-07, 11:47 PM	Mostly, for the Cortae people, it is a 'cultural' thing (it strikes me that way, as a people with many 'local' kings, and they elect a 'High King' in times of trouble. I believe their culture and the Kalmyk inter-mingled and created the Pazruki. There is mention of the use of 'torcs' with them, which is clearly Celtic. Also, the close proximity of the Maraloi and the pixie-fortress of Panjuis gives me an 'ancient Fey Taiga' region vibe, so it ties in with Celtic traditions as well. For the Kalmyk, its the placement, mostly. We already have our neo-Norse with the Illuskans, so this more eastern group of Northmen would fit well, and ties in to the history of the Rus-like peoples (RW, not the Illuskan tribe). The Suren were part of the second wave of kalmyk people to pour out of the mountains, after the Gur but before the Raumathiri. Their history is briefly discussed in The Horde sourcebook. I pieced all of this together by making lists of ancient Farūnian ethnic groups and figuring out who they most likely were related to, and who they developed into. I discussed all of this in a thread over at CK, and it got a pretty good response (and they're a tough crowd, canon-wise). ;) I have two branches of the Cortae people worked out after the sundering drove them apart. The Western branch became known as the Talfir-Cortae, and an Eastern branch called the Issa-Cortae. Think of them as the Brittanic Celts vs the Mainland (Gaul) Celts. Also, the Issacortae do not differentiate between males and females for roles, much as the ancient celts had women warriors in their armies. Their religion is nature-based and animistic as well. Neither the Paruki or the Issacortae are a perfect fit, but both cultures demonstrate some qualities of the Celtic culture. A lot of this has to do with physical descriptions as well, and hair color comes heavily into Play. The Kalmyk are similar to the Illuskans physique-wise, but have much darker features (evident in the Ruamviran). I picture the Cortae peoples having shades of brown-red hair, and the barbarians of the Chukei plateau (right next to the Issacortae) are the only Orientals with red hair. After the GHotR comes out and I see what was done, I'll get back to it and hopefully publish it somewhere (as in, for free).