| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| 18DELTA09-26-07, 05:09 PM | The new article is up here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070926a). So let the flame wars begin.;) Its very interesting to say the least. |
| MarkusTay6309-26-07, 06:00 PM | Fäerie love at last!!! Finally, some good news concerning 4e - I can definately get down with this. :D <Why wasn't I consulted?> :( ;) :dancin: EDIT: Just finished the rest of the article - I guess the Wheel is going to crash into the Tree, and leave a bad accident in it's wake. |
| Calmar09-26-07, 06:28 PM | That does not seem very new to me - it is just shown from a different point of view. - The Faerie plane already exists and it seems to be well connected to Faerūn or the entire material plane. Now it is given more importance. I like that. D&D fey are cool and I really appreciate that there is more focus on wilderness in the next edition and that elves are as close to nature as they should be (at least that's how I understand the changes to come). -The Shadow plane. Well, that's where the shadovar and all those shadowy things come from that we all know since 3rd Ed came (and maybe that's even older?). - The Elemental Chaos. Looks *very* new on the first glance. But come on, whether the elemental- and paraelemental- -- or nowadays just the elemental planes -- are connected by portals, or if they are supposed to be in one big limbo (pun intended)... it does not really change anything important, does it? - The Astral Sea. OK... we pass through the Astral to get from Carceri to Gehenna or to Mechanus. It just a matter of your point of view, if the mighty outer planes are connected by something called Astral plane, or if these places of myth and legend are just little pieces in one huge Astral Sea. All in all, the Astral stays endless, it still connects anything and the former outer planes are now called dominions. Seems they are not considered endless themselves anymore. But who cares? They are still big enough to put new stuff in them and I do not think there are many people who set their games far off the known places on the planes. 3rd Ed, AFAIK, already did not care much about things like the Styx or planar borders, so Planescape fans probably just have to pick what they like from the new stuff and put it in their games and ignore the things that do not fit their campaigns. Business as usual. :) |
| Gray Richardson09-26-07, 08:54 PM | It sounds to me like they are shooting for a nautical metaphor. Material worlds will be like a big central island, with all it's attendant planes surrounding it in a cluster of islands. Cosmologies would then be like archipelagos or island chains. Perhaps one will be able to easily sail across the Astral Sea to get to the next world and its group of planes. Note that in 3e, the Shadow Plane serves this function. In 2e, the phlogiston served this function (although an argument could be made that phlogiston and the shadow plane are just different aspects or manifestations of the same plane of Shadow). I kind of like the sea metaphor for the astral. There is already some precedent: the Githyanki travel in Astral skiffs, the bodies of dead gods float around like islands, etc. I am intrigued to see how they develop this. While I am hopeful that they are respectful of the lore from previous editions, I am interested in seeing where they are going with this. So far I cannot tell if they are doing a "Crisis On the Infinite Earths" style reboot of continuity, or if they are instead doing a "Marvel Ultimates" style implementation of a completely new continuity that merely echoes what has come before. |
| GothicDan09-26-07, 10:32 PM | In the Elric Saga, the Ship That Travels Over Earth and Sea (i think that's the name) was also a 'boat,' and it was used to travel the 'Astral.' And remember, the Great Wheel was ALL analogy. So nothing seems too different to me. |
| MarkusTay6309-27-07, 12:05 AM | Isn't there a fiendish ship that sails the planes as well - they used one in the WotSQ. |
| 18DELTA09-27-07, 12:17 AM | Isn't there a fiendish ship that sails the planes as well - they used one in the WotSQ. Whats that song from I think the late 70s early 80s, dont know who the group is. It went "come sail away, come sail away, come sail away with me lads". Now if Quenthal Banrae was singing it I would follow her away! All the way if you know what I mean!:eek: |
| MarkusTay6309-27-07, 12:51 AM | I think it was ELO. I like Kansas's Point of no Return as well; it's very fitting - "I heard the men saying something The captains tell they pay you well And they say they need sailing men to Show the way, and leave today Was it you that said, "How long, how long?" They say the sea turns so dark that You know it's time, you see the sign They say the point demons guard is An ocean grave, for all the brave, Was it you that said, "How long, how long, How long to the point of know return?" Your father, he said he needs you Your mother, she says she loves you Your brothers, they echo your words: "How far to the point of know return?" "Well, how long?" Today I found a message floating In the sea from you to me It said that when you could see it You cried with fear, the Point was near Was it you that said, "How long, how long To the Point of Know Return?" The Gnomes, of course, would all be singing Yellow Submarine. ;) |
| SgtAnjay09-27-07, 02:17 AM | Actually, in the Elric saga the ship that sails between worlds isn't given a proper name; Elric only ever refers to it as the "Dark Ship". It does seem like it would be at home in this cosmology. The Ship That Sails Over Land and Sea was a different ship in the saga, one built with the cooperation of the Elemental Rulers Straasha and Grome, lords of Water and Earth respectively. The name pretty much says it all; it could sail across land the same as it did across the sea (the land ripples as if it were water when it passes), and Elric used his connection to the Elemental Rulers to get hold of it. At the end of the adventure it appears in, though, it lost its ability to sail over land. Thanks for the excuse to reread an Elric novel! :D |
| Valgard09-27-07, 07:48 AM | Just what 4E is doing... simplifying things. I have to admit I stuck with the Great Tree because it was structured concerning the deities and that liked me -- that's a change I admitted. Also, the Abyss and the Hells were the same as the Great Wheel, which also satisfied me -- those planes are the ones with more lore in behind. But these? please, what the :censored: are they doing? Changing things in an anarchic way with no sense, and even worse, recycling old planar material. I apologize to any Great Wheel fan I offended while defending the Great Tree, I feel like on the other side. You were right, friends. |
| Suin Bahhar09-27-07, 08:53 AM | Fearuns cosmology of the Great Tree fits right in. Just imagine the climbing of branches (which I ignored in 3e) to be replaced by traveling an astral sea. This nautical analogy feels right for fantasy planar travel. The Feywild is exactly how I imagine Fearie looks like, a greener mirror plane of the prime material. The shadowplane will not be the first station of souls in fearun I guess, as then the fugueplane needs to be replaced by this new shadowfell thing. Only the Abyss and Carceri are different than the 3e versions. So now the innerplanes are closer to the Abyss, and Carceri is gone? |
| Calmar09-27-07, 09:20 AM | I think the name Astral Sea is just a metaphor, for I strongly doubt that you simply jump off the edge of a plane/dominion to find yourself flying in the astral void. Of course there (already) is shipping for those who physically are on the Astral (see the githyanki or the Astral Encounters articles), but I am sure a planewalker still does not notice what he's passing through when teleporting or using a portal. |
| Suin Bahhar09-27-07, 09:45 AM | Yeah but now lower level characters could be able to do some planar adventuring on one of those (githyanki) astral skiffs. They wouldn't survive any encounters on the elemental planes though. Dominions in the astral that are the same as islands in a silver sea is a quite striking image and I could live with that. The more higher, mountainous islands could even give a nice panoramic view of the other nearby personal godly domains. These could be sailed too with a more robust sense of direction for your planar travel. |
| MarkusTay6309-27-07, 11:37 AM | It was actually easier to rectify the Wheel with the Tree, becuase the Wheel simply became the over-cosmology that all local cosmologies were 'hooked into'. Since the planes were primarily the same, there was no problem there, and the deific realms were just demi-planes floating on a local hub. The whole thing is really just analogy, as Dan says. The interconnectivity is just how mortals pictured it, leaving out planes they never heard of, or adding ones only available in their sphere. NOW, they've changed the very nature of the planes themselves! This is a COMPLETELY different animal - I doubt there will be any sort of easy explanation for this one. For once Wheel and Tree fans can become united, because this is nothing like what we've grown used to on a planar level. These changes aren't simply a matter of perception, but rather how the universe itself works. |
| daimyotx09-27-07, 12:15 PM | I'm actually liking this and pretty much agree with Calmar above. It does seem to have a very Melnibonean feel to it (at least for me) - and that's not going to make me complain either. |
| MarkusTay6309-27-07, 01:35 PM | Its almost as if they examined every other setting in existance, and then distilled out whatever made it cool. And now they are trying to cram it all into one set of rules. :rolleyes: Good Luck. |
| daimyotx09-27-07, 02:55 PM | Have to agree there! Seems like they are reaching for something that just isn't within their grasp right now. I just hope they don't fall on their faces too hard and take us with them :( |
| Calmar09-27-07, 04:01 PM | Yeah but now lower level characters could be able to do some planar adventuring on one of those (githyanki) astral skiffs. They wouldn't survive any encounters on the elemental planes though. Dominions in the astral that are the same as islands in a silver sea is a quite striking image and I could live with that. The more higher, mountainous islands could even give a nice panoramic view of the other nearby personal godly domains. These could be sailed too with a more robust sense of direction for your planar travel. I don't want to sound impolite, but what is supposed to be new about this? Whether some PCs find a portal to the Astral plane/sea does depend on the DM's decission if they are already strong enough to survive the perils of the planes, rather than on some in-game explanation. Personally, I would not care much if you could actually see the plane drifting in the void, rather than just a color pool since I *either* make an adventure in the fantastic environment of the silver void, *or* do not let the characters recognize that their gate went through the Astral when they journeyed to their adventure on another plane. Although that's principally the way I handle it now and I have to see how it actually works in 4th Ed to judge it. :P |
| 18DELTA09-27-07, 04:08 PM | Its almost as if they examined every other setting in existance, and then distilled out whatever made it cool. And now they are trying to cram it all into one set of rules. :rolleyes: Good Luck. One core to rule it all.:P |
| Suin Bahhar09-27-07, 04:27 PM | The structure Gray was thinking of is more easy on the mind than the wheel and its prime with multiple connections of infinate planes (but seperated by crystal spheres). The "new prime material worlds" could be big continants within a 3d astral sea with their respective godly realms as islands in the vicinity of that continant. Off course when using portals the travel becomes nonexistant, but wheres the fun in that? Travel and exploration are big parts of adventures in my campaigns. Travelling from on plane to the next with the new cosmology can become a mayor part of a story. The transition between the FRs planes is mostly abrupt shifting from the one plane to the next. Now with the new setup a simplified map of the astral plane learns you the amount of travel needed to go "sailing" from one plane to the next. The Blood River flowed and cascaded from plane to plane already and could possibly be used in similar fashion but it's literally more narrow. Filler Astral Sea. Shifting with spells is still instantaneous but could have limitations like the maximum amount of astral miles you could travel with it could be limited. I guess it all just fits better in my brain at the moment and I am anxious to see more... |
| MarkusTay6309-27-07, 04:36 PM | One core to rule it all.:P "Three books for Eberron under the Sky, Seven for the Realms Fans and their halls off Stone, Nine for the World of Greyhawk doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his Dark Throne, In the land of Reston where the Shadows lie... One Ruleset to rule them all, one Ruleset to find them, One ruleset to bring them all, and with 'Point of Light' bind them." ;) |
| Zanan09-27-07, 05:08 PM | What has the linked cosmology article to do with the Realms and its board? |
| ravennight09-27-07, 06:09 PM | I don't mean to be a tool, but is all the info you are talking about in the Shadowdale adventure? I don't know anything about it except for comments going around on these boards, so would someone post more details or a summation of what happened, or send me a message if you don't want to post it? Please? :confused: |
| Suin Bahhar09-27-07, 06:12 PM | What has the linked cosmology article to do with the Realms and its board?As much as you like to discuss. |
| SgtAnjay09-27-07, 08:41 PM | What has the linked cosmology article to do with the Realms and its board? Point the first: We know the Spellplague wrecks FR cosmology. So the 4ed cosmology will be something new. Point the second: We know WotC wants to use a single core ruleset across the different campaign settings. I would suggest its a good idea to pay close attention to 4ed articles; it may well have everything to do with the Realms. |
| 18DELTA09-27-07, 10:44 PM | "Three books for Eberron under the Sky, Seven for the Realms Fans and their halls off Stone, Nine for the World of Greyhawk doomed to die, One for the Dark Lord on his Dark Throne, In the land of Reston where the Shadows lie... One Ruleset to rule them all, one Ruleset to find them, One ruleset to bring them all, and with 'Point of Light' bind them." ;) That right, and we need never forget that!;) So on a side note, I dont know if this has been posted. Richard Baker blog said this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13926345&postcount=16) today. So enjoy peeps. One core to rule them all, one core to rule them all!:eek: ;) |
| msatran09-27-07, 10:53 PM | That's NOT reassuring. |
| GothicDan09-27-07, 11:00 PM | I will never fail to not understand why people thought the Great Wheel was constraining. It was shaped ACCORDING TO BELIEF. Planescape, by default, MADE IT MUTABLE. WtfBBQ. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-27-07, 11:12 PM | OH MY GOD I CAN'T BELIEVE THEY DID THIS! ...not. I glanced at the article, and really, there's nothing here to "flame" about. These are basically the planes we've always known about, except now they are called something different. It's all basically just a different conception of the same cosmological ideas we've had for years. Markus: I LOVE Yellow Submarine! Is there a domain with Blue Meanies on it?:plotting: I'd go there!:dancin: |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-27-07, 11:16 PM | I will never fail to not understand why people thought the Great Wheel was constraining. I don't get it either. Hasn't there always been room to make up new planes as needed? That's nothing new. And yes, part of the point was that it had plenty of potential for change. |
| Bluenose09-28-07, 08:46 AM | It doesn't look like very much has changed from the old versions, really. I always thought those were meant as metaphors, and this is just a different one. Instead of having a group of discrete planes arranged like a pizza, or hanging from the branches of a tree, they're floating in a bubble in a sea. I see nothing that prevents me using abyssal layers and such, or that affects the way players interact with the planes. It's actually rather the like my homebrew campaign. The two bits that interest me most are the increased emphasis on a Faerie plane - I suspect there might be an elven/eladrin presence - and the change to the elemental planes. That looks interesting with a place for the para-elemental planes to exist as different regions blend into each other. |
| capnvan09-28-07, 09:30 AM | Will we have to make room for Oberon and Titania? :confused: |
| SgtAnjay09-28-07, 09:52 AM | Yes, well, if people could always understand each others' points of view this world would be a much happier place to live in. That is, unfortunately, not the case, but it doesn't neccesarily make either point of view less valid. |
| Suin Bahhar09-28-07, 10:16 AM | Will we have to make room for Oberon and Titania? And where is Sigil now...? |
| MarkusTay6309-28-07, 10:50 AM | It's still there - just head toward the "second star to the right and straight on 'til morning"... Will we have to make room for Oberon and Titania? :confused:Yes, and Magneto and Titanium Man. :D Not to mention Superman and Green Lantern... "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida".... ;) |
| 18DELTA09-28-07, 12:52 PM | It's still there - just head toward the "second star to the right and straight on 'til morning"... Yes, and Magneto and Titanium Man. :D Not to mention Superman and Green Lantern... "In-A-Gadda-Da-Vida".... ;) Is that Iron Butterflies version, or the Slayer version, from the soundtrack of Less than Zero. I prefer the Slayer version my self. But what about Dr Doom? I could really see him laying the smackdown on Thay. Spider-man web swinging thru Waterdeep.That would be worth the price of addmissions, right there!;) :P :rolleyes: |
| ripvanwormer09-28-07, 06:14 PM | What has the linked cosmology article to do with the Realms and its board? Rich Baker has suggested (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13926345#post13926345) that this is also the new Realms cosmology - the 3e Realms planes are "islands" within the same Astral Sea. What he said was, "So, for example, just about all of the godly planes listed in Forgotten Realms "Great Tree" cosmology can fit right in, no shoehorning necessary." It's yet to be determined if this is the actual official way they're going with it, or if this was just a suggestion. |
| 18DELTA09-28-07, 06:24 PM | Richard posted this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13932726&postcount=554) today.He says that the new cosmology, will be the new cosmology for the realms!:eek: |
| MarkusTay6309-28-07, 06:38 PM | Rich Baker has suggested (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=13926345#post13926345) that this is also the new Realms cosmology - the 3e Realms planes are "islands" within the same Astral Sea. This is further supported by the way in which the plane of Shadow is represented in the new super-modules. It is much closer to this "Shadowfell" vision then the older 'Wheelocentric" one. Is that Iron Butterflies version, or the Slayer version, from the soundtrack of Less than Zero. I prefer the Slayer version my self. But what about Dr Doom? I could really see him laying the smackdown on Thay. Spider-man web swinging thru Waterdeep.That would be worth the price of addmissions, right there!;) :P :rolleyes:I don't think Dr.Doom ever had his own song, but spiderman did. :D "Spiderman, spiderman, does whatever a spider can..." * Paul McCartney and Wings did Magneto and Titanium Man (http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Magneto-And-Titanium-Man-lyrics-Paul-McCartney/E884804A1F2F80A348256A4C00073657). ;) |
| 18DELTA09-28-07, 06:49 PM | This is further supported by the way in which the plane of Shadow is represented in the new super-modules. It is much closer to this "Shadowfell" vision then the older 'Wheelocentric" one. I don't think Dr.Doom ever had his own song, but spiderman did. :D "Spiderman, spiderman, does whatever a spider can..." * Paul McCartney and Wings did Magneto and Titanium Man (http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Magneto-And-Titanium-Man-lyrics-Paul-McCartney/E884804A1F2F80A348256A4C00073657). ;) http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13932726&postcount=554 One Core To Rule It all! Rich Baker posted that today! :surrender :noway: :nonono: :headexplo :banghead: :mymy: :rolleyes: |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-28-07, 09:04 PM | Richard posted this (http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=13932726&postcount=554) today.He says that the new cosmology, will be the new cosmology for the realms!:eek: I'm not surprised. |
| GothicDan09-28-07, 09:34 PM | Isn't it great to listen to certain people go on and on about how "WotC isn't going to do X or Y to the Realms, stop being grognards/naysayers/pessimists!"... And watch WotC do everything we knew they'd do all along? ;) |
| Dark Wizard09-28-07, 10:37 PM | Isn't it great to listen to certain people go on and on about how "WotC isn't going to do X or Y to the Realms, stop being grognards/naysayers/pessimists!"... And watch WotC do everything we knew they'd do all along? ;) I suppose it does leave room for some of us to change things back. Or rather preserve what we had going for our games. Like I'll have my Shou Emperor make an official decree, the Divergence of Worlds or some such. Yes, in my Realms he is that powerful. |
| GothicDan09-28-07, 11:06 PM | He's AO! |
| MarkusTay6309-28-07, 11:13 PM | Its the curse I bare. :( Isn't it great to listen to certain people go on and on about how "WotC isn't going to do X or Y to the Realms, stop being grognards/naysayers/pessimists!"... And watch WotC do everything we knew they'd do all along? ;)Sometimes it sucks almost always being right. :noway: |
| Suin Bahhar09-29-07, 04:16 PM | *thinks about changing his current location* Sigil drifts precisely in the middle of the astral sea. You can even arange all the planes as astral dominions around her. Voila, the Planescape setting... |
| 18DELTA09-29-07, 06:45 PM | Isn't it great to listen to certain people go on and on about how "WotC isn't going to do X or Y to the Realms, stop being grognards/naysayers/pessimists!"... And watch WotC do everything we knew they'd do all along? ;) I noticed that too, a certain geek has been strangely silent lately.:thinks: :cloud9: :w00t: :P ;) |
| GothicDan09-29-07, 08:03 PM | Oh, no. He's the type that'll be back tomorrow telling us to buck up, everything will be okay! While the ceiling is falling down on our heads. That is why said geek is currently the ONLY person on my ignore list. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin09-29-07, 08:38 PM | Isn't it great to listen to certain people go on and on about how "WotC isn't going to do X or Y to the Realms, stop being grognards/naysayers/pessimists!"... And watch WotC do everything we knew they'd do all along? ;) I have to admit, it is rather satisfying.:cool: |
| 18DELTA09-29-07, 11:27 PM | This is further supported by the way in which the plane of Shadow is represented in the new super-modules. It is much closer to this "Shadowfell" vision then the older 'Wheelocentric" one. I don't think Dr.Doom ever had his own song, but spiderman did. :D "Spiderman, spiderman, does whatever a spider can..." * Paul McCartney and Wings did Magneto and Titanium Man (http://www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Magneto-And-Titanium-Man-lyrics-Paul-McCartney/E884804A1F2F80A348256A4C00073657). ;) No its,"Spider-pig, spider-pig, does whatever a spider-pig can..." To quote everybodies favorite Homer Simpson.:P ;) |
| Gray Richardson09-30-07, 04:00 AM | It doesn't look like very much has changed from the old versions, really. I always thought those were meant as metaphors, and this is just a different one. Instead of having a group of discrete planes arranged like a pizza, or hanging from the branches of a tree, they're floating in a bubble in a sea. I see nothing that prevents me using abyssal layers and such, or that affects the way players interact with the planes.I agree with you on this. They seem to be shooting for a nautical metaphor, islands in a sea versus branches on a tree. It's the kind of thing where mortal scholars of Faerūn could argue about without really being wrong either way. I know I have also described the cosmology alternatively as a koosh, as a sputnik, and as an airport hub. You could easily say that all these analogies are really just a shorthand to describe a hyper-dimensional, metaphysical construct that is not truly comprehensible to a mortal mind except by the use of analogies and metaphors. I am tentatively open to the re-envisioning of the cosmology, so long as the history and lore of the Great Tree planes is mostly preserved, even though I realize the idea of it as a Tree is going away. I am nervous about what they are doing, but cautiously hopeful that they will do right by the Realms fans.The two bits that interest me most are the increased emphasis on a Faerie plane - I suspect there might be an elven/eladrin presence - and the change to the elemental planes. That looks interesting with a place for the para-elemental planes to exist as different regions blend into each other.I agree with you about the plane of Faerie, or the Feywild as they are calling it. I have long wanted some more lore about the fey creator race and the plane of Faerie. There are lots of tantalizing bits of Realms lore referencing Faerie, I feel strongly there are some good stories and history and planar goodness to be explored there, but it has been largely undeveloped. Maybe in 4e we will get some sort of sourcebook or adventure detailing Faerie, the fey creator race, and how they relate to Faerūn. I always thought they should have followed up Serpent Kingdoms with a Sylvan Kingdoms sourebook all about the fey and the plane of Faerie. Maybe we will get a chance to see something like that in 4th edition. I am less stoked about this new Elemental Chaos plane. There actually is some wonderful prior lore about these planes. The Inner Planes sourcebook from the Planescape line has a lot of great stuff in it. And the Secrets of the Lamp book they did for Zakhara/The Land of Fate setting (technically a Realms book) is an amazing book, with a ton of great material about the home planes of the genies and their rulers. I love that book so much. You know, I suppose you can argue that the Elemental Chaos as a unified plane is not much different from winnowing it down from 18 planes, to four planes with para and quasi-elemental regions on the borders where these planes touched each other. You could argue that the step toward calling it just one plane with a lot of areas where the different elements are either concentrated or mixed in various ways with other elements is just a reclassification by scholars of the same planar set up. I don't really care if you call it 18 planes, 6 planes, 4 planes or 1 plane, so long as they preserve such great lore as the City of Brass, the Great Dismal Delve, the Elemental Princes of Evil, and other such fantastic personages and sites. While I am fearful that they might toss out some things I have come to love, I am willing to wait and see what they do with it. Sadly, the planes have been much ignored in 3e. If rejiggering the cosmology into something new helps get them jazzed up to write and craft more planar lore, sourcebooks and adventures, then at least I will be pleased if they do more with the planes in 4e. |
| MarkusTay6309-30-07, 11:02 AM | The Elemental Planes got 'dumbed down' because they felt that they weren't very interesting and hard to adventure in. By combining the four elements, it makes it easier for PCs to travel around, because it is just like any other world containing all four elements. More of the washed-out bland 4e uber-setting. :bored: I can just hear the 4e Evangelists when this is released - "And we've made it much easier to travel around between settings and Planes, because everything is exactly alike!" I may use the Elemental Tempast, but it will be a seperate entity from the Four Elemental Planes (a maelstrom in the middle?). I never got rid of the quasi and para Elemental Planes, and I certainly am not getting rid of the big four. Feywild and Shadowfel are just new names for old ideas - ideas they finally thought it worth giving some much-needed attention to. |
| 18DELTA09-30-07, 11:41 AM | Oh, no. He's the type that'll be back tomorrow telling us to buck up, everything will be okay! While the ceiling is falling down on our heads. That is why said geek is currently the ONLY person on my ignore list. All I know, is that the geek was following me from forum to forum, saying I was basically wrong. Everywhere I posted their he was. I thought I had a forums stalker.:eek: :P ;) "The sky is falling..." |
| GothicDan09-30-07, 11:42 AM | Yeah. He's kind of irritating, and it has nothing to do with him disagreeing with me. :) |
| 18DELTA09-30-07, 11:57 AM | Yeah. He's kind of irritating, and it has nothing to do with him disagreeing with me. :) Yeah, it was the dogmatic assertions that soured me. The standard 1E, 2E, 3E, & 3.5E assumptions no longer apply with 4E. It was maddening.:rolleyes: |
| 18DELTA09-30-07, 12:00 PM | The Elemental Planes got 'dumbed down' because they felt that they weren't very interesting and hard to adventure in. By combining the four elements, it makes it easier for PCs to travel around, because it is just like any other world containing all four elements. More of the washed-out bland 4e uber-setting. :bored: I can just hear the 4e Evangelists when this is released - "And we've made it much easier to travel around between settings and Planes, because everything is exactly alike!" I may use the Elemental Tempast, but it will be a seperate entity from the Four Elemental Planes (a maelstrom in the middle?). I never got rid of the quasi and para Elemental Planes, and I certainly am not getting rid of the big four. Feywild and Shadowfel are just new names for old ideas - ideas they finally thought it worth giving some much-needed attention to. No that would be 4E Televangelists.:eek: :P :rolleyes: |
| Dark Wizard09-30-07, 03:41 PM | Is this an implication that the Great Tree didn't take root? (I think the Tree might have worked if the actual structure was a tree of sorts, where the beings can travel and inhabit places outside of the divine or planar domains.) |
| SgtAnjay09-30-07, 05:33 PM | Well, the "tree" was the astral....which you can travel and inhabit even though its outside the divine or planar domains. The reason it was thought of as "tree" shaped was because the planes were on "branches", so it was easier to go from the "trunk" (prime material) to a "branch", and back (you just follow the astral path to that plane), than from a "branch" to a "branch" (with no astral path between them). For whatever thats worth, since that structure's gone |
| MarkusTay6309-30-07, 06:03 PM | Too many Trees getting moved around an re-rooted lately, IMHO. :rolleyes: Hey... ya know... that might be an interesting IG solution as to the 'why' that the GT came and went... the Elven one is somehow linked to people's perceptions of the cosmology. As it 'takes root', so do new ideas... A little 'quirky', but with a good back-story it might be made to work... I rather see IG 'quirkiness' then meta-gaming "we changed our minds" anyday, but thats just me. ;) |
| Gray Richardson09-30-07, 06:06 PM | Is this an implication that the Great Tree didn't take root?I don't take it that way. Rather I think they are going for a metaphor that can apply across all settings, one that allows each setting to have it's own assortment of planes, that can allow new planes to be created or old ones to be destroyed, planes to split or merge or drift away, etc. In many ways the new cosmology reaffirms many nifty aspects of the Tree, it is just not using the Tree metaphor. Presumably Eberron's cosmology will be adapted to the new model as well. I imagine that the New Cosmology has to be able to model not only the aspects of the Great Tree and Eberron's orrery cosmology but also the Great Wheel. I take it that (or I am at least hoping that) they are shooting for a robust cosmological model that lends itself to multiple interpretations, in a way similar to the old story of the 3 blind men who stumble across an elephant: the one pressing his hands up against the side and proclaiming it a wall, the other puts his arms around one leg and says "no it is a tree" and the last grasps the trunk and declares it a snake. Likewise you may have Oerthians proclaiming their planes to be a Great Wheel, while Eberronians think of it as a solar system planes that orbit, and Torilians seeing their cosmology as a tree. Down the line, this may even allow some form of spelljamming to come back into vogue as spelljammer ships sail the Astral sea beyond their little archipelagos of planes to neighboring "island chains". |
| Dark Wizard09-30-07, 06:08 PM | I meant a more literal tree trunk with a physical or metaphysical terrain inhabited by varied beings. That might be how it was set up, but it never felt like a viable component to the Tree cosmology. @Grey Richerson - I'm hoping they produce a flexible base cosmology as well. It seems they're headed in that direction more or less. |
| Suin Bahhar09-30-07, 06:20 PM | I have some problems understanding the Elemental Chaos plane merging. This plane supposedly exists deep inside every prime material world. Would it be simultaneously existing next to each resource on a planet i.e. every ocean has a link to a water domain on the elemental chaos, every mountain or volcano to the earth or fire domains... |
| MarkusTay6309-30-07, 07:01 PM | I would think it will be more along the lines of 'nodes', which FR already has. I supppose some nodes, like the one mentioned in that 'astronomer' thingie leads to the mish-mash of the Tempest, whereas the previously established nodes lead to certain elements directly. |
| Meldread09-30-07, 07:23 PM | The more I hear about the New Cosmology the more I strangely like it. I'm not sure why, but it has a feeling of Spelljammer without the pseudo sci-fi space feel. Which is something I REALLY like about it. If nothing else, I believe it's a vast improvement over the Great Tree. I was never really interested in the planes before, outside of the Hells or the Abyss but that could change... |
| Dark Wizard09-30-07, 07:35 PM | I'm not sure what it is, maybe due to the whole Great Wheel vs. Great Tree dilema the planes already don't seem that fundamentally tied to the Realms. So this change doesn't bother me too much. It also helps that it seems somewhat flexible and that probably opens more doors than it closes unlike how I feel about many of 4E's changes to the Realms. I could get to like this. |
| DarkSongKnight09-30-07, 07:37 PM | Not much seems to have changed. Same places, different names. I'm very glad that they are paying attention to the "Feywild," aka Faerie. I hope that the Lythari dens and their link to the material plane is explained some. I look forward to seeing more of the Fey and their interaction with the Realms and the elves. The shadow plane seems a little too Tolkien-ish for my taste. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Tolkien's works, but not with the Realms... The Elemental Chaos? Hmm... so basically its a puzzle piece plane, with each piece consisting of an individual element. I don't know many campaigns that actually used the Elemental planes besides from conjuring elementals, so solidifying it into one plane doesn't seem that big of a deal... The Astral Sea? Wait. What about the Astral Sky?! Floating, floating. Wheee! :rolleyes: Overall, I like this idea with the planes. One of the few good things I've seen coming with 4e. |
| Meldread09-30-07, 08:07 PM | The Elemental Chaos sounds like an interesting place to visit. In my minds eye I imagine a place completely consumed by the elements. Simply huge in scope perhaps billions of miles wide. Entire giant landmasses which could be considered "islands" (but in reality are the size of entire planets) floating in a huge ocean existing amid the chaos. Most of them would be barren and desolate, too chaotic and constantly shifting and changing, with only the creatures native to the plane making homes there. (Elementals, mostly.) Entire giant landmasses would find themselves wracked with earthquakes that create huge chasms that are so violent that lava seems to spill out. (Similar to how Europa, a moon of Jupiter, is being pulled by Jupiter's gravity having huge cracks in its surface which allows water to come up and refreeze. Or Jupiter's Moon Io.) The sky would be a constant stream of gray clouds that seem to be moving constantly and violently. In many places, due to the violent earthquakes, it would cause volcano's to erupt filling the sky with ash and smoke, along with the occasional rain of fire. Sudden, unpredictable and erratic storms would appear out of no where, from tornados to giant hurricanes that could not even be conceived on planet Earth. Tsunami's would wrack coastlines, as new landmasses rise and fall beneath the waves of the endless seas... ...and amid the chaos of the place would be tiny points of 'stability' or as stable as any such place could be. These places might have more traditional individuals living there, such as humans and elves, but they would be little more than outposts. Places that you'd show up to in preparation for an adventure out into the chaotic and unpredictable hostile lands beyond. |
| SgtAnjay09-30-07, 08:47 PM | I have to say this new cosmology seems like pretty good raw material and is inclusive rather than exclusive. Still not feeling the new devil/demon paradigm, though. |
| GothicDan09-30-07, 09:56 PM | I feel the same. |
| MarkusTay6309-30-07, 11:32 PM | Still not feeling the new devil/demon paradigm, though.Thats just getting back to basics, really. Demons were always more 'eastern' flavored and beastial, whereas Devils were primarily of western european Christian mythology. Devils often pose as regular mortals and try to trick them into 'shadey deals'. Demons just rip your friggin' head off. I have no problem so far with any of the new rules as presnted, although I'm still a little iffy about the Elemental Tempest. I'm sure I will enjoy using them with whatever new setting I choose next year. ;) |
| SgtAnjay10-01-07, 01:42 AM | Thats just getting back to basics, really. Demons were always more 'eastern' flavored and beastial, whereas Devils were primarily of western european Christian mythology. Devils often pose as regular mortals and try to trick them into 'shadey deals'. Demons just rip your friggin' head off.No, they weren't. Hence the statements by WotC about why they changed things so that they are now like the way you described. Prior to this, many demons were plotters, or seducers, and several devils were beastial horrors. But devils were lawful and demons chaotic, so their philosophies and methods were different. Now, chaos cant be seductive, subtle, or insidious, and law cant be brutal, feral, bloodthirsty. :rolleyes: By the way.....how were demons more 'eastern' flavored?? |
| MarkusTay6310-01-07, 02:11 AM | I'm talking about before D&D ever got a hold of them. ;) |
| SgtAnjay10-01-07, 02:57 AM | *sigh* Exactly in which tradition, mythology, or culture are you claiming this was the case, out of the uncountable myriad that include "devils", "demons", and combinations and variations thereof? Surely you dont think theres any kind of homogenous view of what the natures of "devils" and "demons" are in the real world, do you? |
| Calmar10-01-07, 02:57 AM | I say the Great Wheel or Tree are just the sages' interpretation about the relations between and the interactions of interaction the planes. Imagine, just as an example, the philosophies each of the alignment planes represents were represented by deities instead. Now you could portray the way they relate each other through a flowchart. That is what, as far as I see it, the Great Wheel does. As I already said, For the Elemental Chaos it depends on the point from where you look at the elemental planes. Just take a look a this really well made traditional visualization of the multiverse (http://zen79.deviantart.com/art/The-Planescape-Multiverse-35619350) (could take long to load). If you zoom out, the inner planes indeed appear as one big chaos. The 'new' cosmology seems mostly to be a new interpretation of the stuff we already have. If they begin to say that there is no Baator now, but nine infernal planes (instead of layers) instead, it might look new, but it would not change anything. And in a multiverse where belief is the strongest force we should not be offended by new points of view, should we? ;) :P |
| MarkusTay6310-01-07, 01:06 PM | *sigh* Exactly in which tradition, mythology, or culture are you claiming this was the case, out of the uncountable myriad that include "devils", "demons", and combinations and variations thereof? Surely you dont think theres any kind of homogenous view of what the natures of "devils" and "demons" are in the real world, do you?I have always felt that way, for whatever reason, and obviously so does WotC now. There must be some basis as to why we all feel this way, eh? Normally, whenever someone uses the term 'devil', weather it be in movies, literature, etc, it is usually a very human-looking being who is trying to corrupt mortals - usually. Whenever a demon is portrayed, it's usually some sort of horrific monster that is barely more then some insane killing machine. Demons, and the words they derive from - dęmon, daewan, etc - harken back to earlier, more primitive religions. They are closer in nature to the monstrous creatures in Vedic traditions and the oriental Oni. Devils are purely part of Western European culture, created by the Catholic Church during it's meteoric rise to power. Although there exists many depictions of such creatures with animal body parts, they are usually represented as as more human looking when dealing with mortals directly. Also, Devils are always said to follow the letter of a contract (very popular in folklore), whereas demons are nearly always shown to act chaotic in nature. True, the two terms can be used interchangeably for the most part, but their are definite images that come into most people's mind when one or the other is mentioned. 4e D&D is merely embracing those conceived differences and running with it. There is no problem with that - I always felt that the two species were way too much alike, except in temperament. Now we have real differences - if TSR had made a point of this when they created their first Monster mannual, no one would be having any problem with this now. |
| Rinonalyrna Fathomlin10-01-07, 02:35 PM | Well, Christianity itself did originate in the Middle East... |
| GothicDan10-01-07, 02:47 PM | It has nothing to do with Nazarene Judaism or anything. ;) |
| Dark Wizard10-01-07, 05:12 PM | Personally I felt the Devil/Demon thing was just a lot of 4E hype and a few cosmetic changes. To me the Devils have been different from Demons since Planescape. The 4E changes do nothing that wasn't there already. The fiends WotC has trouble differentiating are the Yugoloths and the other NE ones. I honestly can't tell what WotC did in 4E that is anything different than 3e's or 2e's take on them. So they look different? The Succubus = Erinyes thing also bugs me a little. I have always used Succubi as beings of pure lust where as Erinyes are more manipulative seducers. The Succubi give it first and through the act you are thus damned, your fate sealed. They get you at the moment of temptation. The Erinyes promise to give it later if you do them this little favor, and in doing so you're damned. They get you when you try to obtain the goal of temptation. At least that's how it's always been in my games. |
| GothicDan10-01-07, 06:37 PM | Quite. Though I do find it a little amusing that in previous editions, the Devils were described specifically, in general, as being more "Reptilian." Now they're making the Demons more bestial, instead. Hm. |
| 18DELTA10-01-07, 06:42 PM | Quite. Though I do find it a little amusing that in previous editions, the Devils were described specifically, in general, as being more "Reptilian." Now they're making the Demons more bestial, instead. Hm. Im beginning to think that WotC is Bi-Polar!;) |
| SgtAnjay10-01-07, 06:49 PM | How you define "devils" depends on what you're familiar with. Apparently, all you're familiar with is western christian "devils". There are other cultures with creatures whose names are translated as "devils" into english, who rather dont follow the western christian mold. Then of course, theres the fact that in general society demon and devil are interchangeable. Ask someone off the street what a "devil" (as a opposed to the Devil) and what a "demon" is, and you're not going to get a neat and tidy determination of roles. Its the knowledge of the alignment of demons being chaotic in D&D that puts the slobbering-beast-only idiom in one's head. Frankly, I've ever liked too much real world in my D&D, especially when running something like the Realms; if I have to stick with real world analogues I may as well go play Warhammer Fantasy or make up a real world analogue homebrew. I've never even liked how closely paladins are based on the western christian chivalric knight (as opposed to being a more general holy warrior), or how closely the cleric (ostensibly the "priest" in the game) was actually based on the fighting monks of the western crusades (hence the armor, shields, and weapons), etc. Adding in even more western christianity is most definately something I just cant get behind, especially if I'm forced to use these christian concepts in a world so very different from the christian west. Taking away some of the uniqueness of the D&D concept of devils and demons to shoehorn more western christian concepts in? Even worse. IMHO, of course. Thats my main beef. Secondly, this is a significant change, mostly in the demons, but also in the back-lore of the devils. The mysteries surrounding Asmodeus, his true nature, his ancient origins? The rumors and theories and backalley talk about his goals and motivations? Were devils creations of the NE fiends? Directly or indirectly? Are they a primal manifestation? All that gone. Thrown away, cause its simpler for western christians to get a rehash of the fall of Lucifer. Booo.:nonono: And the demons.....sure, there were simularities with devils. I cant really disagree there. Perhaps too many simularities, though that's definately debateable. But now, they're simple slobbering beasts. Chaos is no longer subtle, insidious, it doesn't show you the freedom from lack of order as a path to evil, it doesn't seduce you into abandoning structure for indulgence in desires as a way to get you to abandon good for evil. They're just monsters who want to kill you. Oh good. There weren't any of those in D&D before. How unique. And what exactly will be the end fate of many of the demon lords currently plotting, planning, scheming? Grazzt isn't a huge slobbering beast. Eltab wasn't; how can any of the copious amounts of lore and impact he had on that region of the Realms make any kind of sense now? Orcus hasn't been depicted that way in personality, even if his physical form is beastial. The list goes on. |
| GothicDan10-01-07, 06:51 PM | I've never even liked how closely paladins are based on the western christian chivalric knight (as opposed to being a more general holy warrior), or how closely the cleric (ostensibly the "priest" in the game) was actually based on the fighting monks of the western crusades (hence the armor, shields, and weapons), etc. And this is why Daniel always used Crusaders and Specialty Priests. :) |
| Suin Bahhar10-01-07, 06:57 PM | To be honest I only like most high CR demons and devils of D&D. A babau, neshrou, dretch...these are a bit bland. The marilith, kytons and several others got the feel of devil and demon right. Yugholots serve the devils through a contract with Mephistopheles. This seems to indicate their inclusion in the ploys devils have with demon lords. Theres no real talk about the bloodwar yet. |
| GothicDan10-01-07, 07:04 PM | I love ALL Fiends. Though I do tend to favor the good 'ol 'Loths and Baatezu. Still, the Succubus/Incubus and Balor are always big favorites. |
| Calmar10-02-07, 08:41 AM | And the demons.....sure, there were simularities with devils. I cant really disagree there. Perhaps too many simularities, though that's definately debateable. But now, they're simple slobbering beasts. Chaos is no longer subtle, insidious, it doesn't show you the freedom from lack of order as a path to evil, it doesn't seduce you into abandoning structure for indulgence in desires as a way to get you to abandon good for evil. They're just monsters who want to kill you. Oh good. There weren't any of those in D&D before. How unique. I think you have to seperate between the Abyssal armed forces and their material plane operatives. I have always understood the former being savage bloodthirsty beasts (opposed by the disciplined and structured legions of Baator) while the latter seem to appear more like sadistic hedonists in their mortal disguises. I really hope they keep the Blood War in 4th Ed. :( |
| Suin Bahhar10-02-07, 09:07 AM | Elementals of D&D could now also have a war similar to the bloodwar with their realms being that much closer to eachother. The intelligent some of them could start lording over others of their kind, carving personal domains etc. Maybe they do unite against the incursing demons. If devils chose to close the abyss they need to go into the elemental battlegrounds and battle hordes of demons. If enough blood clogged the hole of the abyss it might close... BLOODWAR |
| Meldread10-02-07, 11:25 AM | I think the Bloodwar has officially come to an end. It's a shame, because I found it the most interesting fact about the Planes, but on another note... it has really opened up entirely new opportunities. The Abyss will be located in the Elemental Chaos and basically anything that wanders too close to it will become corrupted. This actually makes sense when you factor in things that might live there such as Slaadi. You have the various colors which roughly correspond to an element (Red - Fire, Grey - Earth, Blue - Water, White - Air) then you have the strange Black / Death Slaadi which no one really understood. These would obviously be Slaadi who wandered too close to the Abyss. Things like the Temple of Elemental Evil also begin to start making sense. |
| Alediran10-02-07, 12:31 PM | The Elemental Chaos sounds like an interesting place to visit. In my minds eye I imagine a place completely consumed by the elements. Simply huge in scope perhaps billions of miles wide. Entire giant landmasses which could be considered "islands" (but in reality are the size of entire planets) floating in a huge ocean existing amid the chaos. Most of them would be barren and desolate, too chaotic and constantly shifting and changing, with only the creatures native to the plane making homes there. (Elementals, mostly.) Entire giant landmasses would find themselves wracked with earthquakes that create huge chasms that are so violent that lava seems to spill out. (Similar to how Europa, a moon of Jupiter, is being pulled by Jupiter's gravity having huge cracks in its surface which allows water to come up and refreeze. Or Jupiter's Moon Io.) The sky would be a constant stream of gray clouds that seem to be moving constantly and violently. In many places, due to the violent earthquakes, it would cause volcano's to erupt filling the sky with ash and smoke, along with the occasional rain of fire. Sudden, unpredictable and erratic storms would appear out of no where, from tornados to giant hurricanes that could not even be conceived on planet Earth. Tsunami's would wrack coastlines, as new landmasses rise and fall beneath the waves of the endless seas... ...and amid the chaos of the place would be tiny points of 'stability' or as stable as any such place could be. These places might have more traditional individuals living there, such as humans and elves, but they would be little more than outposts. Places that you'd show up to in preparation for an adventure out into the chaotic and unpredictable hostile lands beyond. That sounds like Limbo |
| SgtAnjay10-02-07, 01:43 PM | Elementals of D&D could now also have a war similar to the bloodwar with their realms being that much closer to eachother. The intelligent some of them could start lording over others of their kind, carving personal domains etc. Maybe they do unite against the incursing demons. Ummm.....there already are (were?) elemental wars waged by the elemental princes of good and elemental princes of evil against each other and against rival elements from their own personal domains within the elemental planes. Things like the Temple of Elemental Evil also begin to start making sense.The Temple of Elemental Evil does make sense already. |
| MarkusTay6310-02-07, 06:48 PM | And what exactly will be the end fate of many of the demon lords currently plotting, planning, scheming? Grazzt isn't a huge slobbering beast. Eltab wasn't; how can any of the copious amounts of lore and impact he had on that region of the Realms make any kind of sense now? Orcus hasn't been depicted that way in personality, even if his physical form is beastial. The list goes on.They'll ret-con them all into Devils. :devil: |
| boards10-03-07, 01:00 AM | *sigh* Exactly in which tradition, mythology, or culture are you claiming this was the case, out of the uncountable myriad that include "devils", "demons", and combinations and variations thereof? Surely you dont think theres any kind of homogenous view of what the natures of "devils" and "demons" are in the real world, do you? I think that a large part of the reason people think of Devils coming from Christian belief is that several of the most famous Devils are relatively well known names from the bible. Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, Baalzebul (even if philistine in origin), Mammon and Bel are all names that appear bible thus associating devils with Christianity and Lucifer even turned up at one point IIRC. Of the most famous Demons I dont think Grazzt or Orcus have a history in the bible but I believe Demogorgon was used in the middle ages or renaiscence for a pagan Demon so they dont have that Christian Devil perception. If D&D didnt want Devils to be thought of as being like Biblical Devils they went the wrong way about it using those names. I'm not religious and even I can pick several of those names out. |
| GothicDan10-03-07, 10:50 AM | Orcus was a term used by Romans to sometimes refer to Dis Pater. And, uh, pagan demon? |
| SgtAnjay10-03-07, 10:51 AM | I think that a large part of the reason people think of Devils coming from Christian belief is that several of the most famous Devils are relatively well known names from the bible. Asmodeus, Mephistopheles, Baalzebul (even if philistine in origin), Mammon and Bel are all names that appear bible thus associating devils with Christianity and Lucifer even turned up at one point IIRC. Of the most famous Demons I dont think Grazzt or Orcus have a history in the bible but I believe Demogorgon was used in the middle ages or renaiscence for a pagan Demon so they dont have that Christian Devil perception. If D&D didnt want Devils to be thought of as being like Biblical Devils they went the wrong way about it using those names. I'm not religious and even I can pick several of those names out. The most ironic aspect here is just how many of those names that appear in the Bible are just corruptions of deities and beings from other cultures. Asmodeus, Baalzebul, and Bel among them. And yes, alot of western christian concepts are in D&D. I gave several examples of such, and stated how I didn't like it since you're then obliged to apply these to worlds completely different from the christian west. I also said and am repeating that there's plenty of other cultures they could draw devil or demon lore from to expand the D&D game with. They'd managed to keep the devils and demons from being just a D&D conversion of the Bible, spinning their own unique stories and histories about these beings. There was plenty of room to keep expanding the game to give it depth and substance. Instead, they shrunk and dumbed it down. I mean, it's nice if you're playing in a D&D version of the christian west. Not so good for other D&D games, including the Forgotten Realms. |
| GothicDan10-03-07, 10:54 AM | Sgt knows what's the truth. |
| Alediran10-03-07, 11:15 AM | Most decent FR players know. |
| boards10-03-07, 06:28 PM | The most ironic aspect here is just how many of those names that appear in the Bible are just corruptions of deities and beings from other cultures. Asmodeus, Baalzebul, and Bel among them. And yes, alot of western christian concepts are in D&D. I gave several examples of such, and stated how I didn't like it since you're then obliged to apply these to worlds completely different from the christian west. I also said and am repeating that there's plenty of other cultures they could draw devil or demon lore from to expand the D&D game with. They'd managed to keep the devils and demons from being just a D&D conversion of the Bible, spinning their own unique stories and histories about these beings. There was plenty of room to keep expanding the game to give it depth and substance. Instead, they shrunk and dumbed it down. I mean, it's nice if you're playing in a D&D version of the christian west. Not so good for other D&D games, including the Forgotten Realms. Sure and I am not saying any different, I'm just saying that first impressions of many of those names for many people (christian dominated) is from the bible, and first impression generally remain in peoples minds for a long time no matter what information is used to dispell it. |
| GothicDan10-03-07, 06:33 PM | You do realize the majority of Western society wouldn't recognize those names AT ALL, right? The vast majority haven't read most of the bible, at all, and a lot of those names either don't appear in the bible exactly as written, or at the very least the modern clergies really don't tout the Book of Apocalypse and the like. |
| Zanan10-03-07, 07:01 PM | Well, the Bible did a fine PR stunt (no insult intended, rather telling facts) to discredit deities / divine beings of other faiths by giving them "evil" tags. Some of those powers were indeed "evil" in their own respect, or just "dark". Some of the devils had origins in other traditions too, best known are probably the erinnyes. D&D took much more of the "original" into the various deities and fiends than the Bible did, of course. Not all down to the core of the original, of course, but more often than not (thanks to some over-zealous folk of the monotheistic faith(s)) we do not know much of the original anyways. Orcus, BTW, is a known entity from the Roman pantheon of deities. (Not saying that he was original a Roman deity though.) |
| GothicDan10-03-07, 07:05 PM | Already beat you there, Zanan. Booyah! ;) |
| Gray Richardson10-03-07, 09:51 PM | Devils were originally slightly more diverse in their first incarnation. There were only 4 named Archdevils in the original Monster Manual (released 1977) and only 2 had biblical names: Asmodeus and Baalzebul. Geryon was from Greek mythology, Dispater was from Roman myth. The architecture of the plane itself was taken directly from Dante's Inferno, but the inhabitants were somewhat mythology neutral. Bone, Ice, Horned, Barbed Devils and Pit Fiends are all pretty generic. Erinyes actually come from Greek mythology (one of the Greek names for the Furies). And I would swear that the pit fiend is based on the titular demon from the movie "Curse of the Demon" (called "Night of the Demon" in Britain), so he draws from movie mythology more than anything. Then in Dragon #28 in 1979, a writer named Alexander Von Thorn fleshed out the D&D version of devils in an article called "The Politics of Hell". But I wouldn't say he was using biblical and middle-eastern mythology so much as pulling from the medieval and qabbalistic conceptions of devils and demonology. Remember, D&D basically started out as a fantasy version of medieval Europe. So I am sure he was going for a feel that would evoke the cathedrals and abbeys and castles of the middle ages. Von Thorn definitely pulled liberally from such sources as the Inferno, Paradise Lost, Faust, and other medieval sources to fill in the blanks of D&D's Nine Hells. And his conception was probably just as much influenced by the pop-culture of the 70's--there was a major fascination with demons during that period. You can see it referenced in a lot of old TV shows, movies, record albums and other media from back then. Ed Greenwood himself elaborated on the hierarchy of Hell in his Nine Hells articles from Dragon #'s 75, 76 & 91. These articles were extremely popular. They cemented this conception of hell in D&D, and influenced everything that followed after. You could say that the Hell we have in D&D owes as much to Ed Greenwood as anyone, because it was his articles that presented the version of hell that we are most familiar with in D&D today. |
| 18DELTA12-06-07, 03:22 PM | :bump: |