Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Gray Richardson 09-05-04, 05:41 PM	The Forgotten Realms Great Tree is an organic thing of beauty. It grows new planes, some parts wither, new planes fork and branch off from existing ones. It occurred to me that like a tree, FR's cosmology had to start small and grow big to the sprawling, dynamic multiverse it is today. It had to have a history, right? And thinking about it I realized that Selune's Gates of the Moon had to be the very first Outer Plane. Using the history presented in the FRCS, here is my line of reasoning: The Creation of the Universe In the beginning Ao created the universe. This includes Toril's Prime Material Plane (which I shall refer to interchangeably as "Realmspace") and presumably the Astral, and maybe the Ethereal. It is unclear whether Ao actually created Shadow or not. I think of Shadow as pre-existing Realmspace. I see it as the soil in which Ao planted the Realms' Great Tree. But maybe not. Three possibilities exist: 1) Shadow probably pre-existed the cosmos, because it links all cosmologies together. It was apparently the void in which Ao created the cosmos. 2) However a second possibility is that Ao could have created Toril's Shadow Plane along with the Astral (and possibly the Ethereal) and then Toril's Shadow Plane hooked itself up to the other Shadow Planes of alternate prime material universes at a later date. 3) The third possibility is that Shar created the Shadow plane after she coalesced out of nothingness. In the beginning Realmspace was empty, filled with timeless nothingness, a shadowy mist out of which coalesced Selune & Shar. Shar claimed Shadow for her realm and Selune then created the Gates of the Moon within the Astral by which links it to Realmspace. The Gates of the Moon is probably therefore the very first outer plane in the FR cosmology. Shar & Selune then created Toril and all the heavenly bodies (including Glyth, homeworld of the Illithids, and H'Catha homeworld of the beholders.) Chauntea/Jannath was the divine personification of Toril. Chauntea/Jannath created the plane of the House of Nature and set aside her garden therein as her personal realm. Next in the creation myth is an intriguing phrase: Selune reached beyond the universe to a Plane of Fire in order to create the sun. This could mean a lot of different things depending on how you interpret it. It could just mean that she reached outside the Prime Material Plane--which implies that Ao may have created the inner planes (Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Positive & Negative) at the same time he created the Prime Material plane. But if you take it to mean that Selune reached outside the cosmology itself then you could deduce that the inner planes might have pre-existed the cosmos. Yet a third possibility is that Selune created the inner planes at this time by drawing substance from beyond. Is it possible that of all the planes the Inner Planes exist outside of the Great Tree and may share themselves with other cosmologies? These planes are definitely shared between Faerun, Zakhara, Kara-Tur and Maztica. But with alternate prime material worlds? Hmmm. I don't know. Next Selune created the sun. Its personification, Amaunatar, established his divine realm of the Keep of the Eternal Sun, presumably attached to the House of Nature next to Chauntea's garden, but possibly a plane in its own right. The War of Light & Darkness Shar fought Selune resulting in the creation of the following gods: War (Targus = Warrior's Rest/Battle Garde), Disease (Who had disease in the beginning? Talona? Moander? Maybe an unnamed god? = This god could have created the Barrens of Doom & Despair or Offalmound maybe?), Murder (have no idea who this was, maybe Kozah? Jergal later came by this portfolio and then still later handed it over to Bhaal, but it is unclear who had it in the beginning), Death (Jergal who created the Fugue Plane), and other fell forces not listed but possibly including Destruction/Kozah = Fury's Heart, and maybe Strife (later to be taken over by Jergal but perhaps initially a single god in his own right) = the Barrens of Doom & Despair, or maybe Strife created Limbo). Mystryl was formed from the essence of magic torn from Selune & Shar, she established Dweomertor as her realm (originally just a small rocky hill, later to grow into the city/plateau of Dweomerheart). Mystryl forged a truce between the gods and presumably Cynosure was created at this time as neutral ground to negotiate this peace. Selune had sons and daughters. An intriguing line. Who could these have been and what planes hath they wrought? Perhaps Sune is her daughter and beauty sprung into being at this time. Maybe joy, pleasure, luck & trade also arose with her. Brightwater probably came into being as these concepts became personified and established their divine realms together. Life arises on Toril As life evolved on Toril there came the racial deities: Sarrukh, Batrachi, Aeree, Halflings, Gnomes, Humans, Giants & Dragons arose native to Toril in roughly that order. Other races of lesser prominence also arose. My best rough guess is that the Great Tree saw planes created/added in the following chronological order: Pre-History Primordial Sea Creatures = Fated Depths Deities of nature and Landbased critters took up residence in House of Nature Who knows how many gods & planes arose & were lost before the coming of the Creator Races. Ubtao seems to be a holdout from the dinosaur era. Days of Thunder Sarrukh worshipped the World Serpent = Deep Caverns (Smargard?), Merrshaulk fragmented off and eventually took up residence in the Abyss. Batrachi = Unknown, maybe Deep Caverns but maybe Limbo/or the Supreme Throne (prior to being claimed by Cyric) Aeree = The Aeree predate the arrival of the elves so they could not have worshipped Aerdrie Faenya yet, and Arvandor did not exist at this time. Perhaps they worshipped Akadi in the realm of Air, or a pantheon of Aeree gods perhaps such as Syranita. Maybe the Aeree Pantheon lived in a plane that is now lost. Who knows? Sylvan Folk = Faerie, a plane that has faded away, maintaining only tenebrous links to Faerun. There is speculation that the Eladrin migrated to Brightwater and the Gates of the Moon from Faerie. The following four humanoid races are native to Toril, and I make the assumption they evolved in order of their relative sizes. Totally arbitrary on my party: Halflings = Golden Fields Gnomes = Green Hills Humans = Various/Interloper Gods Giants = Jotunheim (I assume Giants predate the Dragons even though Ostoria rose to greatness after the time of the Dragons, because Giantcraft states that the Giants were young when the Dragons fell in eggs from the sky.) Dragons = Dragon Eyrie The First Flowering Dwarves (the first alien interlopers) = Dwarfhome Goblinoids (interloped after discovering portals, maybe ones left by the Dwarves?) = Clangor Treants = ? (Not sure if they imported their gods or just adopted the nature gods that were already here. Was there a plane of plant gods at one time? Or were some of the Treants themselves gods? Grandfather Tree might could possibly have started as a treant deity. Maybe the Treant gods just took root on the Prime Material in lieu of creating a plant home plane. Not even sure if they worshipped gods when they first got here.) Elves interloped bringing the Seldarine and Arvandor Dark Elves = The anti-Seldarine first fell into the Abyss, later creating the Demonwebs Illithids colonized from Glyth & brought Ilsensine who established its realm in Deep Caverns with the other underdark gods. Duergar were enslaved & then rebelled, Laduguer ascends, & creates Hammergrim, possibly ripping her realm free of the Deep Caverns. Beholders colonized from H'Catha and their gods also invaded Deep Caverns. Humans from other worlds migrate to Zakhara, Kara-Tur, & Maztica & bring their own gods who establish their own planes, fracturing the Astral (aparently with Ao's consent.) Mulhorandi = Heliopolis Unther = Zigguraxus Orcs = Nishrek--I speculate that Gruumsh and his crew migrated at the time of the Orcgate wars, but I could be very wrong. They are so tied to the Seldarine that I assume that they have to be interlopers, but for all I know they were native to the Faerunian orcs who evolved on Toril. Sometime after ascending around the Time of Troubles, Cyric creates the Supreme Throne (or splits it off from somewhere or just lays claim to an existing plane, maybe renames Limbo?). He could not have seized it from Bhaal or Myrkul as Myrkul had the Fugue Plane and Bhaal I believe had his Throne of Blood on the Barrens with Bane, but I could be wrong here too. I find this one a puzzle. I find these following planes to be problematic to place and have no idea when they sprang up: House of the Triad: originally just Mt. Celestia, later Helm, Ilmater & Tyr added their own mountain realms to this plane. House of Knowledge: probably sprang up whenever Oghma interloped. The Abyss, Baator & Blood Rift. I like to think that fragments of the World Serpent may have created these planes. It is possible that Merrshaulk is the progenitor of the Demons and the Abyss. It has been rumored that Asmodeus is a fragment of the World Serpent as well. And if that is true then M'daess or Jazirian (or both) could have created Mt. Celestia which later evolved into the House of the Triad. 2E sources suggest Jazirian may have created the Archons and that another WS fragment might have spawned the Baatezu. The Supreme Throne (created maybe around 1368 DR) and the Demonweb Pits (spun off from the Abyss during Lolth's recent silence) seem to be the very newest planes. And there could have been countless other planes that have come and gone throughout the eons. Jergal is depicted as a mummified mantis-man. Is he the last vestige of a forgotten, ancient Thri-Kreen pantheon? It would make sense if a race of insect people evolved prior to the reptilian Sarrukh. If there was no historical record how would anyone know? And this is assuming that gods created the planes as soon as they came into being. For all we know Faerunian gods might not have had planes until the Dwarf and Elf gods interloped and taught them how to do it. I am relying on a supposition that planes are not a recent godly fad. Any thoughts? Have I missed anything? Is there a better order to place them in the chronology? It's all very speculative... What do you think?
Zigra 09-05-04, 08:40 PM	Interesting. I should point out a few things, though. - The Giants are not naitive to Toril. They, like the Demi-humans, came from elsewhere. The Giants apparently arrived after the Dragons had already long risen to prominance. Only the Sarrukh, Batratchi, Aaerie, Fey, Humans, Dragons, and creatures that descend from these races are naitive to Toril as far as we know. I believe that much that was spoken of in Giantcraft has long since been debunked by books like "Powers and Pantheons" and a few other sources. - Don't forget that there is some debate on whether the Dragons are a Creator Race or not. "Powers and Pantheons" claimed they were, and "Serpent Kingdoms" says that many sages put them as a Creator Race in place of the Aaerie. Indeed, even with the Aaerie in place, it seems that the Dragons are at the very least a sixth Creator Race, as they are naitive to Toril, and are about as ancient as the other Creator Races. Dragons walked Toril even before they rose to prominance during the Time of Dragons, and they were apparently the prime foes of the Sarrukh for a long time. -As was stated above all Demi-humans came from other worlds and are not native to Toril. This includes Gnomes and Halflings. I believe that all Demi-humans arrived at about the same time, but the Elves were the first to rise to prominance. Humans are apparently the only human-looking race that is naitive to Toril. - If we're talking about canon, I highly doubt the World Serpent dwelt in Deep Caverns. As I said before, that plane is reserved for Underdark-related gods. I know Laogdzed dwells there, but he has little or no relation to the World Serpent (Laogzed's more related to the tana'ri than any of the other Scalyfolk gods), and only dwells there because his race dwells in the Underdark. Most likely, the World Serpent dwelled in his own home plane. In fact, if Shekinester's Court of Light is a plane in it's own right (as I suspect it is), I wouldn't be suprised if that's where the World Serpent originally dwelt. Of course, you can do whatever you wish in your own campaign world;) - The Moonshaes Trilogy well established that the Earthmother was once a completly different being from Chauntea. What happened in the course of that trilogy is that Bhaal murdered the Earthmother and attempted to take the Moonshaes for himself, but Chauntea took over the Earthmother's portfolio instead after Tristan Kendrick banished Bhaal.
Gray Richardson 09-06-04, 10:19 AM	The Giants are not naitive to Toril. They, like the Demi-humans, came from elsewhere. Actually Giants are native to Toril, so are gnomes & halflings. According to the FRCS p.261 "Halflings, gnomes and giants arose on Toril. The mighty giants built great kingdoms and battled the dragons, although the giant civilization was never great enough to merit inclusion as one of the creator races." Don't forget that there is some debate on whether the Dragons are a Creator Race or not.I didn't forget them, they are on the list. "Creator Race" just means that of all the species that arose on Toril these 5 or 6 had the greatest of civilizations. I am happy to include both dragons and Aeree in the list of creator races, I see no reason to limit the number to 5. Elves and Dwarves, who also had some pretty great civilizations that flourished for long periods, are not counted as creator races because they interloped from other dimensions. However, since they brought their gods with them who in turn created planes in Toril's Astral, I have included them in the planar chronology (more just an ordering really, no years attached, although you could attach years to some of the events). Everyone is included. I was using the chronology in Serpent Kingdoms as a rough guide along with the history in the FRCS to figure the order of the creation of the planes. As was stated above all Demi-humans came from other worlds You are mistaken on this point, quite a lot of demi-humans and humanoids arose on Toril. They just didn't have huge civilizations so they did not arise to "creator race" status in prominence. I highly doubt the World Serpent dwelt in Deep CavernsGood point. Here is my logic. I start by only using the listed planes from the Players Guide to Faerun. I start with the assumption that there are currently no other planes in the cosmology than the listed ones. (This assumption could be proven wrong but I have to go with it.) So then I have to ask where is the best place to put the World Serpent Pantheon? Laogzed is a fragment of the World Serpent (was once part of the World Serpent but split off) so that's a good indicator. I think the World Serpent was likely important enough to merit his own plane. He could have originally leaned more to neutral, although he demanded sacrifice so that is an indicator he was evil. After he split off M'daess who had most if not all of his good qualities, I think that left him more evil than he had started out. Assuming that M'daess left his plane to go live elsewhere, that might cause his plane to start being more evil aligned, ratcheting it up to a mildly or even strongly evil alignment at this point. The other thing to remember is that planes in FR are divinely morphic, they resemble whatever their deities feel like. For all we know the Deep Caverns started out as a neutral aligned jungle paradise filled with cities and fantastic architecture. I propose that as the world serpent splintered, and the scaly folk retreated underground that the World Serpent pantheon's plane came more and more to resemble the Deep Caverns plane we know today. There is nothing in published works to suggest that there is a World Serpent plane in the cosmology that noone has talked about, and Serpent Kingdoms would have been a good place to mention it if there were. Until the good Wizards mention other planes I will have to go with Deep Caverns being the home of the Scaly pantheon. In fact, if Shekinester's Court of Light is a plane in it's own right (as I suspect it is), I wouldn't be suprised if that's where the World Serpent originally dwelt.That is a concept which also sets my imagination aglow. I could live with that if the Wizards say so, but I suspect that Shekinester's plane may just be a divine realm attached to the House of Nature. I draw this conclusion because in 2E the Courts of Light were attached to the Outlands/Concordant Opposition Plane. House of Nature seems to be the catchall plane in FR for both the Outlands and also the Beastlands. I think it more probable that Sheky is "in the House". I imagine it is a pretty nice crib, but still not a plane in its own right. However if the Wizards later tell us that Courts of Light is its own plane, I would be fine with that too. The Moonshaes Trilogy well established that the Earthmother was once a completly different being from Chauntea.The nature of FR allows for deific fragmentation, gods create separate aspects all the time to service different groups of worshippers. I agree that the Earthmother is a separate entity (sort of) from Chauntea, but I think all the info points to her being just an aspect or fragment of Chauntea. Kind of like one personality of a person with Multiple Personality Disorder. But I could be wrong about that. Anyway that's a little off topic, not really related to planar chronology.
Kuje31 09-06-04, 11:49 AM	The nature of FR allows for deific fragmentation, gods create separate aspects all the time to service different groups of worshippers. I agree that the Earthmother is a separate entity (sort of) from Chauntea, but I think all the info points to her being just an aspect or fragment of Chauntea. Kind of like one personality of a person with Multiple Personality Disorder. But I could be wrong about that. Anyway that's a little off topic, not really related to planar chronology. Yes later 2e material, like Faiths and Avatars, and all 3e and 3.5e material says the Earthmother is an alias of Chauntea. :) So the info from the older sourcebooks and novels has been overwritten. And to keep this on topic, I like it Gray. :) I wish WOTC would have detailed something like that and added some in game explainations about how the planes came to be. Then maybe, just maybe, I'd start to come to the dark side and join with those who like the new planes. :) I know they started to do so in the Spider Queen novels, which sorta made me happy.
Gray Richardson 09-06-04, 12:04 PM	I agree with you Kuje, I would love to see more info, more lore, more detailed locations, more history, more interesting characters, more of everything involving FR's planar cosmology. I am sure in time we will see more and more of that in future Realms published books. I would bet that this paucity of detail is the stumbling block for a lot of the FR oldtimers to be won over to the new cosmology. But I am sure these details will come in time. You can forgive the designers for focusing on Faerun itself where the majority of the action is supposed to take place. Maybe we will get a good deal of planar info next year in the rumored upcoming FR fiends book. There might even be a juicy tidbit or two in the Ancient Empires book coming out next February. In the meantime we fans can try to expand on the material so far. We can come up with our own interesting locations and characters and lore. That is my goal so far with my posts and threads. I feel strongly that as the Great Tree gets fleshed out, becomes a richer, more mysterious, exciting place to adventure, that FR fans will grow to love the Great Tree--eventually maybe even as much as planescape fans love the Great Wheel.
Iakhovas 09-06-04, 12:07 PM	The really like the history Gray. It's doesn't use the Great Wheel so it's not my cup of tea, but good work nonetheless --------------------------------------------------- On the dragon debate however, there is no debate. Dragons are NOT a creator race. The first mention of the creator races hails from the old 1st-Edition Forgotten Realms AD&D accessory "The Savage Frontier". FR5 The Savage Frontier p.3 ©1988 In the elven oral tradition, these were known as the "Days of Thunder", when cruel lizard, amphibian, and avian peoples (known to the elves as the Iqua'Tel'Quessir or creator races, but with no honor or respect intended) At this time only three progenitor races were known, the lizards (Sarrukh), amphibians (Batrachi), and the avians (Aearee). Later sourcebooks added faerie folk and humans to the list. Dragons were never included in the list until a misinformed designer accidentally replaced the avians with dragons. As further evidence that dragons cannot be a creator race, Dragonkind are not even native to Toril. Giantcraft p.7 ©1995 At almost the same time Ostoria was founded - or so say the giants - the first dragons started hatching all across Faerūn. Of course, no one knows the exact origins of dragonkind, but the venerable legends of the giants speak of dragon eggs raining down upon Toril like meteors. Giants on the other hand *are* native to Toril and their Colossal Kindgom was vast, covering much of modern day Faerūn. In my opinion, Giantkind has more right to be a "creator race" than humankind does. Note again that humans were not even included on the original list.
Kuje31 09-06-04, 12:24 PM	On the dragon debate however, there is no debate. Dragons are NOT a creator race.[/QUOTE] Page 55 of Serpent Kingdoms says dragons could be a creator race. :)
Gray Richardson 09-06-04, 12:33 PM	I 100% agree with you Iakhovas. Well maybe only 97%. Everything you state is true, except I would not go so far as to state that Dragons are not a creator race. The FRCS says they are and it is hard to argue that the FRCS is wrong. I have more of an inclusive mindset to say hey lets just say there were 6 creator races. Anyway, "creator race" is really a misnomer. More of just an honorary title awarded by historians and scholars. The creator races didn't create anything except large civilizations. The only criteria is that they had to be native and mighty. I personally would even nominate giants, but somehow the size of their civilization didn't make the cut. I think elven scholars may have a racial prejudice against giants and excluded them unfairly from the list of Iqua'Tel'Quessir. Your quote from Giantcraft is one of my favorites from that book. The image of dragon eggs falling from the sky has always set fire to my imagination. This does not mean that Dragons aren't native however. It could just be a Giant myth that is wrong or misleading. Even if it is correct, it does not mean that dragons came from another plane. It could just be that Io or Asgorath or whatever creator god made them chose to make the dragons in a particularly dramatic fashion by raining the first dragon eggs down out of the sky. It is safe to say that the first dragons were born (or at least hatched) on Toril, right?
dragonheart 09-06-04, 01:07 PM	I think elven scholars may have a racial prejudice against giants and excluded them unfairly from the list of Iqua'Tel'Quessir. I suspect that this is much of why the dragons are left out as well. the creator races were first named by the elves after all and they left off the Giants that they sort of fought and the dragons that they had major problems with. In naming the creator races they named races that had already passed when the elves arrived not the ones they were in compitition with at the time - even if those races were as old as the "creator" races. In the same way they have added the humans now that their (the elves) height is passed admitting that they were around way back when even if not important till recently. I doubt the elves will ever admit either the dragons or the giants to their list of "creator" races even if the rest of do :)
Gray Richardson 09-06-04, 01:36 PM	Here is a totally weird theory I am just going to throw out there: Maybe the Blood River is the World Serpent. Maybe he fragmented so much and was drawn so thin that the last vestige of him is the Blood River linking the lower planes where dwell his many fragments.
Gray Richardson 09-06-04, 02:05 PM	Here is another weird theory: Maybe the world ash or the world tree that links the celestial planes is a Treant deity or perhaps the last vestige of the plane of the Treant pantheon. Maybe that is the contribution that the treants made to the planes when they interloped over from another dimension.
Gray Richardson 09-06-04, 02:12 PM	Then again the World Tree that links the celestial planes (not to be confused with the Great Tree which is the whole cosmology) might have been a gift or creation of the Faerie pantheon back at the height of the Sylvan creator race hayday, before they faded (mostly) from the world. It maybe that the World Tree is one of the few planar links that still exist to the Faerie realm. Some say the great Fey civilization was wiped out by a Tanar'ri created plague. Biological warfare on an epic, genocidal scale. Talona must have been so pleased.
Kain's avatar 09-07-04, 02:33 AM	...Anyway, "creator race" is really a misnomer. More of just an honorary title awarded by historians and scholars. The creator races didn't create anything except large civilizations. The only criteria is that they had to be native and mighty. I personally would even nominate giants, but somehow the size of their civilization didn't make the cut. I think elven scholars may have a racial prejudice against giants and excluded them unfairly from the list of Iqua'Tel'Quessir. The term "Creator Race" stems from the fact that they "created" many of the races and sub-races that exist on Toril today. As in, the Sarrukh created the Yuan-Ti, Nagas, and the majority of the scaled races of Faerūn. The Batrachi created bullywugs, dopplegangers, locathah, kuo toa, sivs and various other amphibious races. The Aearee created the aaracokra, kenku, and other avian races. The Fey created sprites, pixies, grigs, and other fey creatures. Humans created hundereds of sub-races of themselves, and have created many various types of other creatures as well, and continue to do so to this day. The one of dispute, Dragons, could be seen as a creator race, as they probably created the dragonkin, and the drakes and land wyrms, though that is speculation. Giants, as far as I know, didn't create any races, hence their exclusion from the list.
Zigra 09-07-04, 04:34 AM	Actually Giants are native to Toril, so are gnomes & halflings. According to the FRCS p.261 "Halflings, gnomes and giants arose on Toril. The mighty giants built great kingdoms and battled the dragons, although the giant civilization was never great enough to merit inclusion as one of the creator races." Hmm, I'm not 100% sure, but I believe you might be mis-interpreting what FRCS says. I've lost my copy, so I'll have to get another one to make sure. Just because those races arose on Toril, doesn't necissarily mean they arose naturally. 2E Powers and Pantheons clearly established that those races came from other worlds long after the Creator Races (including Dragons) had already arisen to prominance, so I don't know if this still applies to 3E. Also, you might want to consider that Dragons were the first prime enemies of the Sarrukh, so the two races were most likely the first sentient races on Toril. There are no account of the Sarrukh ever coming to blows with the Giants, and you'd think if the Giants were around that long ago, these two powerful races would have had some pretty huge encounters. Finally, to drive the point home, giants have always arrogated a great deal of importance to themselves in any setting. They believe themselves to have been the first sentient beings in the multiverse. However, many races, particulary dragons, various scalyfolk, and numerous primal Underdark races have hotly, and rather successfully, contested this. So, it seems that the beliefs that the Giants have about being the first sentient race is merely a myth. Or, perhaps, it is actually a memory from the world they come from originally. Perhaps the dragon eggs "falling from the sky" is something that occured on their original world, and they merely remember it as something that happened on Toril. Heh, it would be ironic if those dragon eggs that fell on the Giants' homeworld originated from Toril:D So then I have to ask where is the best place to put the World Serpent Pantheon? Laogzed is a fragment of the World Serpent (was once part of the World Serpent but split off) so that's a good indicator. Actually, while I do see some of your reasoning, Laogzed is not a World Serpent fragment as far as we know. "Serpent Kingdoms" suggested that he's actually some sort of tana'ri hybrid, but gave no indication that he is related to the World Serpent in any way. I think the World Serpent was likely important enough to merit his own plane. He could have originally leaned more to neutral, although he demanded sacrifice so that is an indicator he was evil. After he split off M'daess who had most if not all of his good qualities, I think that left him more evil than he had started out. Assuming that M'daess left his plane to go live elsewhere, that might cause his plane to start being more evil aligned, ratcheting it up to a mildly or even strongly evil alignment at this point. I think the point that is causing confusion is that the WS demanded blood sacrifices. To us, that makes him sound evil, but you need to look deeper into this. To the Sarrukh, being sacrificed was a good and noble thing. Before they decided to use other races, Sarrukh that were sacrificed were looked upon as the greatest of heroes, and they went to the altars gladly. So, being sacrificed was not an evil thing in the eyes of the Sarrukh. Second, if you look as the the story of Shekinester's origins in "Serpent Kingdoms" (under Naga Deities), it is made rather clear that the WS had a very strong bent towards good, and so did the Sarrukh themselves at one time. The gradual degenerence of the Sarrukh civilization and the creation of more malevolent races like the Yuan-ti seemed to trigger the WS's descent into evil. But even then, good-aligned fragments of the WS and fragments with strong good aspects still existed and exist even today. The other thing to remember is that planes in FR are divinely morphic, they resemble whatever their deities feel like. For all we know the Deep Caverns started out as a neutral aligned jungle paradise filled with cities and fantastic architecture. I propose that as the world serpent splintered, and the scaly folk retreated underground that the World Serpent pantheon's plane came more and more to resemble the Deep Caverns plane we know today. It's possible, I suppose, but the general theme of that plane seems to be of caverns and underground regions, so I have strong doubts that it was ever mean't to be anything else. That is a concept which also sets my imagination aglow. I could live with that if the Wizards say so, but I suspect that Shekinester's plane may just be a divine realm attached to the House of Nature. I draw this conclusion because in 2E the Courts of Light were attached to the Outlands/Concordant Opposition Plane. House of Nature seems to be the catchall plane in FR for both the Outlands and also the Beastlands. I think it more probable that Sheky is "in the House". I imagine it is a pretty nice crib, but still not a plane in its own right. However if the Wizards later tell us that Courts of Light is its own plane, I would be fine with that too. Personally, if you go with established planes, I'd say that either the House of Nature or Dragons Eryie would be the best places to put the Scalyfolk gods. Of course, the sourcebooks that established the planes we're talking about are the same sourcebooks that claimed there were "no monster deities but those listed here". "Serpent Kingdoms" debunked that, so anything's possible now. Here's another note of intrest. According to a 2E Greyhawk source, Io (Asgoroth) and Chornepsis (Null) are both aspects of the World Serpent. I don't know if this is still canonical (especially since it was from Greyhawk), but it's something to consider, and it could possibly further establish Dragon's Eryie as the home of the World Serpent and other Scalyfolk gods. The nature of FR allows for deific fragmentation, gods create separate aspects all the time to service different groups of worshippers. I agree that the Earthmother is a separate entity (sort of) from Chauntea, but I think all the info points to her being just an aspect or fragment of Chauntea. Kind of like one personality of a person with Multiple Personality Disorder. But I could be wrong about that. Anyway that's a little off topic, not really related to planar chronology. Actually, both of the Moonshaes Trilogies clearly established the two as seperate. The true Earthmother was killed by Bhaal, and only after that did she become part of Chauntea. In the second Moonshaes Trilogy, Earthmother not only returned, independent of Chauntea, but she kicked Chauntea's worship off the Moonshaes. If they were both aspects of the same being, I don't think Earthmother would have done that. Of course, WOTC seems to be ignoring all the info that established Earthmother and Chauntea as seperate beings, so who knows My point is, if Chauntea and Earthmother are seperate beings, then the creation story presented in FRCS may not be completely accurate. Indeed, when that story was first presented in F&A, it was merely a myth, and was open to interpretation by the DM. Who knows what exactly WOTC is doing with it now.
Zigra 09-07-04, 04:51 PM	I've thought of something that could further the arguement of the World Serpent dwelling in the House of Nature. You'll have to bear with me on this, as it is only a theory, albeit one with evidence to back it up. I believe that Ubtao is a fragment of the World Serpent. Why? Well, first of all, his true form, or rather the closest thing he has to one is a gigantic tyrannosaurus rex....a reptilian creature. That alone suggests strong relations to either scalyfolk or draconic deities. Second, in "Powers and Pantheons", under Sseth's profile, it said that "Sseth has a long standing hatred of Jazirian, Shekinester, and Ubtao harking back to the fragmentation of the World Serpent and the sauroid creator race." If that doesn't suggest a close connection between Ubtao and the World Serpent, I don't know what does. Furthermore, in "Serpent Kingdoms" it is very clear that Ubtao has a close affinity with the other fragments of the World Serpent. After Jazirian's supposed demise, Ubtao stepped in to become the patron of Faerun's couatls. Also, as patron of the couatls, he seems to have taken it upon himself to oppose Sseth/Merrshaulk and the yuan-ti at every turn. Of course, there is no confirmation that Ubtao is a WS fragment, but from the evidence I've seen, it's a damn good bet. What do you guys think?
Gray Richardson 09-07-04, 07:07 PM	Could be. I don't have enough info to say yay or nay. It's as plausible as any theory. It had occured to me that Dendar the Night Serpent could also be a fragment. Your earlier suggestion that Io/Asgoroth might be a WS fragment is plausible as well. I personally tend to lean against the idea. But not backed up by any facts, just my own personal gut feeling that Ubtao & the Dragon deities are not related. I hesitate to go overboard with linking every god that has a scale to the World Serpent. But I could be wrong. I am however growing increasingly fond of the idea though that Celestia, Baator & the Abyss were created or at least populated by WS fragments. It jives with the story in the book Warriors of Light about the WS splitting into Jazirian and Ahriman and settling Celestia and Baator respectively. Throw in Merrshaulk and you have the demons covered as well. That story may just be apocryphal and the designers may or may not ultimately choose to go that direction in the Realms, but I like the idea a lot and it haunts me.
Zigra 09-08-04, 01:16 AM	Actually, I think that passage from P&P pretty much establishes that Ubtao had some sort of affiliation with the WS, whether he was a fragment of it or not. That, and the fact that he clearly takes great intrest in the goings-on of WS fragments and the scalyfolk further supports the argument (though it doesn't confirm it). Also, "Powers and Pantheons" stated that Dendar is believed by many to be the offspring or mate of Sseth. That Sseth frequently attempts to unleash her upon the world supports this. In regards to the "Jazirian/Ahriman Twin Serpents of Law", I think, and hope that WOTC is moving away from that, at least in FR. Although many went along with the concept, very few people actually liked it, as it dumped all over many well-loved story elements (Vecna's patron, the Serpent, was Asmodeus all along? WHAT??!! ) and gave no room for interpretation ("this is the way the Multiverse was created, and you, the readers, just has to accept that; if any other sourcebooks tell a different story, that story was a deception created by Asmodeus"). I'd rather that WOTC didn't go along with it anymore for reasons I won't get into too much here, but you can do what you wish for your own campaign.
Gray Richardson 09-08-04, 02:23 AM	The question that is bugging me the most lately concerns the plane of the Supreme Throne. The Supreme Throne is home to no god but Cyric. And I can't find reference to any god that had it prior to Cyric. But Cyric did not come to live there until very recently. Like 5 or 6 years ago! Is this a brand new baby plane? Or did it used to be something else... Cyric did not get elevated to god status until 1358 and when the Time of Troubles was over and the gods were allowed to return to the planes, Cyric ended up with Bhaal, Bane, & Myrkul's portfolios. Bhaal's realm, called the Throne of Blood (presumably located on the Barrens of Doom & Despair) apparently imploded and is counted as one of the lost realms. Iyachtu Xvim probably took over his father Bane's realm of the Black Bastion on the Barrens of Doom & Despair--Bane has since reclaimed it. And Cyric (I believe) took dead Myrkul's Bone Castle on the Fugue Plane for his divine realm until 1368 DR when Kelemvor took over (and changed the Bone Castle into the Crystal Spire.) Okay, so apparently Cyric took the plane of the Supreme Throne as his divine realm in 1368. But where did this plane come from? I supose he could have created it. However, the Supreme Throne is the home of the Slaad. The Slaad have been around a long time, much longer than 1368. The conclusion I am starting to draw is that The Supreme Throne used to be Limbo prior to 1368 until Cyric took over, renamed it and divinely morphed it to his will. Some may even still call it Limbo. I am open to alternative suggestions, anyone got any? The only other possibility I can think of is that Cyric took over his Shattered Castle on an unclaimed patch of Warrior's Rest, heavily populated with Slaad--perhaps a patch named Limbo--and he ripped it free of Warrior's Rest, slaad and all, spinning it off into the Astral to become a separate plane, ruled by Cyric renamed by him as his Supreme Throne. Heck, his actions might have been an impetus for Lolth--not to be outdone--to rip her Demonwebs free of the abyss to form her own plane.
KnightCDL 09-08-04, 09:50 AM	Oooh, I likes this thread alot. Excelant work on the base theory Gray. I am not very well versed in the pre-ancient history of our beloved Toril, however I have a few of my own theories. Pre-creation: We know that cross cosmology travel is possible (Hence interlopers) so something must always have been. So, I assume the basic planes are omni-present. Thats the Astral, Inner, and possibly the Shadow planes. I theorize that the Etheral plane tends to form around Primes. Now, we get Ao. A supreme being from.... somewhere. Obviously subserviant to someone else (book III Avatar trilogy). He is granted the cosmology and given the charge of maintaining it. He reaches through void of the Astral and into absolute nothingness and from nothingness he forges possibility, creation and potential. In the maelstorm of ultra-divine might a gray cloud of emptieness (Torils young Etheral) forms where once there was nothing. Emptiness is not very satisfying and so through the depths of the ether he creates the connections to building blocks of all things, the Inner planes. Deciding that his section of the supreme cosmos shall be balanced he again wills the cosmic storm to bring about two possibilities. Darkness, and a light to shine through it. These he gives a fraction of his power to, and the will to use it. Satisfied that the possibilities are to his liking and the Balance set, he withdraws to watch his creation unfold. The darkness gathers into the being to one day be known as Shar. And light froms her counterpart Selune. Both gifted with power over creation itself, their individual potential immeasurable. They created something in the nothing that they might bring their gifts of darkness eternal and light to stave it off. And so Toril was born. However they are charged with their creators will. And so Shar sought to enforce the edict that she bring darkness to all while Selune steadfastly shown like a beacon in the night. After that I see it as more or less like GR stated. Basicaly in the begining Shar and Selune shared a divinely morphic realm in which they created the Toril Prime. Unable to get along well enough to co-exist there together theyboth formed their own realms from which Shar sought to overcome the rest and Selune sought to hold her off. On the topic of the Supreme Throne: I belive it highly possible that Cyric did indeed form his realm from the chaos of Limbo. Since that plane is highly morphic by nature it would not be too far a strech to think that Cyric, in his single minded divine beline that he is superior to all other gods could focus his will enough to make a realm sized section of the plane obey. But thats where we get to my own cosmology belifes and the model for my campain. I adhere to the Great Wheel. Its probably the best model when you consider that cross Prime travel is possible. The individual Primes have their cosmologies formed by the belifes of their inhabitants. If you were born on Krynn then you likely think the Abyss, Baator, and the Grey Wastes are all one in the same. If you were born in Sigil you laugh at people from Krynn. The keys to Planar mapping are two-fold. Size, and portal grouping. The planes are all infinite (barring Demi's). That leaves alot of room for expansion. Then portal grouping comes into play. If you enter the Abyss from Toril you have an infinte amount of space in which you can be separated from the area of Abyss that a person from Oearth might enter from. And in your Toril section of the Abyss you would find connections to the Demonweb pits, and other Toril-specific locals in other planes. However if you you ignored the know connections, and headed off into the uncharted lands thats your maps tell you lead nowhere, someday you might find a battered wasteland where a young mage named Raistlin fought the gods and won. Or perhaps you will meet a traveler from a city called Greyhawk who foolishly belives his city is greater than your Waterdeep. Thats what I think is the key to cosmologies. Infinte size = infinte possibilities. Ao created the Toril Prime and forged the 1st connections with other planes. The deities spawned in his wake made their own connections to the other planes, and naturally since all they knew was eachother and the prime over which they had dominion they created their portals and connections (relatively on an infinite scale speaking) close together. Then the interloper deities arrived and they made their own connections with the Torilian Prime. The mortals and majority of the gods only know about Aos little section of the infine cosmolgy and so their belifes are what forged their "Great Tree". Just like the Kara Tur's belifes forged their Celestial Beauracracy version. etc etc. Or look at it like this. A Faerunian looks down the cosmic street and sees his house (Toril) as the starting point and all other roads lead away and branch outh into diffrent places (the Great Tree). A Sigil native looks out of his house and all the way down the mountain his city floats over and sees all the streets and towns and countries neatly arranged in a wheel shape below him. A Primer has a ground level veiw of the cosmos. A Planar sees it all from above. They see the same thing, but from diffrent perspectives. Okay, I think I rabled on long enough lol.
GothicDan 09-08-04, 12:27 PM	"I am however growing increasingly fond of the idea though that Celestia, Baator & the Abyss were created or at least populated by WS fragments. It jives with the story in the book Warriors of Light about the WS splitting into Jazirian and Ahriman and settling Celestia and Baator respectively. Throw in Merrshaulk and you have the demons covered as well." As I go by the Great Wheel, this is the only thing I can even bring into this argument. To even try to delve into this topic is to bring up ideas that Planescape fans have been debating and putting forth ideas to for YEARS... And still have come to no single conclusion. And they never will, because they don't want a single supreme answer... But here's my bit. Serpents of Law - Jazirian is 'posing' as a lesser (not necessarily lesser itself, but lesser than she is) deity, when in fact she is a Greater Deity. As is Asmodeus/Ahriman, according to Guide to Hell. BUT according to this book, anyone who doesn't worship a god adds to his power - which is obviously not canonical to FR. It's pretty hard to go by this book, since it tramps over so many previously established ideas/concepts, as well as those presented in 3E. Also, Asmodeus is probably not the original ruler of hell - or at least, not his current incarnation (which is tied to the whole serpent-image, which is far too Xionistic to me, anyway). The Ancient Baatorians were, in some references, the original rulers of Baator. After the Baernaloths created the Yugoloths, they purged themselve sof chaos and law using the Heart of Darkness.. And threw the essences into the Abyss/Baator, which already existed at this time... So, most likely Asmodeus did NOT create Baator. The Abyss was created by no one we know of, either - we've never seen any references to anyone having a hand in creating the Abyss overall, from the start. Nor the Celestial planes. The Great Wheel idea - from which the Abyss, Baator, and the Celestial planes are remnants - ran on philosophy and belief, not deities per say, so it would be difficult to try to tie ideas into a cosmology that is effectively defunct. Well, you could, but you would have to throw ALL 2E references out the window (including a Guide to Hell, in which the Jazirian/Ahriman serpent creators connection is brought up). So, the Outer Planes were probably created not by anyone, but rather by faith and belief in what things were supposed to be, as morals evolved in the minds of the Primes. Or maybe it was all just the Outlands to begin with, and it was created by the Lady of Pain, and as people started to have believes and believe in gods, the Outlands started to "shrink," and she consolidated her power in Sigil to make an anchor for the Outlands, so that true neutrality would never be lost, and no single alignment/deity would be able to take over her creation.... ;) But that's just a theory. Anyway - I would say that the connections between Ahriman and Jazirian are far too weak to be brought up, because they were brought up in a 2E product which referenced a cosmology that no longer exists. I mean, the entire ANALOGY - the two serpents biting each others' tails and forming a ring - is completely different from the current FR cosmology. I think to try to bring it into the new one would be really inappropriate.
Gray Richardson 09-08-04, 02:35 PM	Thanks Gothic Dan & KnightCDL. I agree its hard to form solid answers but if anything my goal is to present the facts that are known, see what conclusions can be drawn, and ask questions that spur discussion. If I can just get the fans to talk about the planes and get some of the writers and designers to ponder these questions, maybe we will see some official answers and expanded planar lore in future realms products. Here is another question regarding the Supreme Throne. The PGtF mentions the Demodands live there as well as the Slaad. Does that mean Apomps has a presence in the Realms? Or did the Demodands just migrate over from another cosmos? What if any relationship do the Demodands of the Supreme Throne have with the Yugoloths over on the plane of the Blood Rift? Also, how do the Demodands get along with the Slaad? Do the Slaad Lords Ygorl and Ssendam have a presence in the Supreme Throne? And lastly, Slaad in 2E were chaotic neutral. Yet the Supreme Throne is mildly evil aligned. Is the evil alignment a recent development since Cyric took over? Or has the plane always been mildly evil aligned? And what ramifications does this have for the Slaad; are Realms Slaad more fiendish in bent than their counterparts in other universes?
GothicDan 09-08-04, 03:09 PM	"And lastly, Slaad in 2E were chaotic neutral. Yet the Supreme Throne is mildly evil aligned. Is the evil alignment a recent development since Cyric took over? Or has the plane always been mildly evil aligned? And what ramifications does this have for the Slaad; are Realms Slaad more fiendish in bent than their counterparts in other universes?" The Slaadi are probably there for the same reason why they scavanged the planes of Acheron, the Grey Waste, Gehenna, etc. - for food. They often traveled to the Lower Planes after great Blood War battles fort his reason, so I could see the same things happening in Cyric's realm.
Zigra 09-08-04, 06:11 PM	Well, if we go by 3E FR cosmology, Limbo/Superme Throne could simply be a realm of chaos and madness, rather than a realm that embodies evil per say. Indeed, in 2E, Cyric's realm was located in Pandemonium, a plane of chaos and madness. Things don't seem to have changed in 3E. As for the Slaad, they may not have been evil-aligned, but they certainly were very psychotic and extremely hostile. A plane of madness like Cyric's would suit them very well. My only question is, if Cyric is the only god dwelling in Supreme Throne, and the Slaad do dwell in this realm and are indeed evolved Batratchi, what happened to the Batratchi/Slaad gods? Did they vanish? Did the Batratchi abandon them? Did the Batratchi even worship any gods?
GothicDan 09-08-04, 07:54 PM	They made Slaadi an evolved something from FR? *Dies on the spot*
Gray Richardson 09-08-04, 08:58 PM	My only question is, if Cyric is the only god dwelling in Supreme Throne, and the Slaad do dwell in this realm and are indeed evolved Batratchi, what happened to the Batratchi/Slaad gods? Did they vanish? Did the Batratchi abandon them? Did the Batratchi even worship any gods? Well, Ygorl and Ssendam may be there. Also there is Bazim Gorag I think. Those Slaad Lords may not be gods but they may count something close to that. Similar to the Demon Princes. As for whether they are the lost Batrachi or the remnants of the Batrachi pantheon, that may just be a red herring Eric Boyd slipped into the Serpent Kingdoms. He has said that the next time he mentions the Slaad, he will probably throw out a totally different explanation. Whenever any statement is proceeded by "Scholars say..." it is an indicator that you cannot take what follows as the gospel truth. That said, I love the idea that the Slaad may be related to the Batrachi in someway. For instance Eladrin are elfin in form. Angels and Archons often use the human form as their base shape. Why shouldn't there be powerful planar races that are shaped like powerful prime material races in Toril's ancient past? I am very intrigued with the thought that the Slaad could be either Batrachi descendents adapted for the planes, or what served as "angels" for the Batrachi race back when they were the bigshots on Toril. There was an amphibian god named Ramenos in 2E that served the bullywugs, god of somnolence, intoxication and decay. He shared the layer of Smaragd (or Smargard) the 74th layer of the Abyss with Merrshaulk, so he may have been just a demon prince or something. I bet if they ever give more details about the Batrachi (a la Serpent Kingdoms) in a future product then Eric Boyd will probably address Ramenos in some fashion or other.
GothicDan 09-08-04, 09:49 PM	:smirk: "For instance Eladrin are elfin in form. Angels and Archons often use the human form as their base shape. " As to the first point, it specifically says that Eladrin are in no way related to elves, biologically or magically, etc. They just happen to look similar - and in general are a bit more fey/elemental than elves. I'm not sure I would classify the Archons as "human"... hound archon, arden archon, lantern archon.. All definitely not. BUT! Maybe it's just the primes that are based off of planar beings' forms. :smirk:
Zigra 09-08-04, 10:52 PM	They made Slaadi an evolved something from FR? *Dies on the spot* "Serpent Kingdoms" puts forward the possibility that the Slaad are descendants of the Batratchi, the amphibiod creator race. But, of course, it was just a possibility, and nothing was actually confirmed.
Gray Richardson 09-08-04, 11:07 PM	As to the first point, it specifically says that Eladrin are in no way related to elves, biologically or magically, etc. They just happen to look similar - and in general are a bit more fey/elemental than elves.Sorry if I wasn't clear. That was exactly the point I was trying to make. Eladrin are not elves but they are elfin in form. Angels are not humans but they are human in form. Perhaps the Slaad are not Batrachi but are Batrachian in form. You are right about the Archons not all looking human, I was thinking more Zaphkiel and Pistis Sophia. But then Archons are a bad example for me to cite anyway, as they are or were or at least can be ascended humans.
GothicDan 09-08-04, 11:16 PM	Angels are also ascended humans. :) Guardinals, Asuras, Eladrin, and obviously Quesars, are not. And...Maybe the Batrachi are Slaadi in form instead of the other way around. :) That's what I was getting at...
Gray Richardson 09-08-04, 11:51 PM	I was thinking about the concept of "ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny" and wondering if or how it might apply to FR's planes in some way. Before life creeped out of the oceans on to the shores of Faerun, were the planes filled with extraplanar jellyfish? Did fish gods rule the planes? The Fated Depths might be a vestige of that era. Perhaps Blibdoolpoolp and Sekolah are millions of years old. What were FR's planes like back in primeval days before there were humans or humanoids? Were the planes full of fiendish & celestial dinosaurs. Were there dinosaur angels and gods? Perhaps Ubtao is one of those. Do demons represent the gods and divine messengers of pre-sapience days before the creator races had evolved? And as such is that why they have more monstrous, less humanoid visages? Are lillends and mariliths examples of planar races and pantheons that were more representative of the serpentine races that filled the planes back in the days of the Sarrukh? Did Angels always look human before humans even evolved on Toril? Or did the angels evolve through phases too--looking for a time like fish, or lizards or avians or frogs and eventually like humans, in tune with the dominant life forms on Toril during each period? I think it makes sense for the Slaad to look like Batrachi. Someone on the planes should. There had to have been froggy gods with froggy servitor races back in the day. Maybe the planes were once filled with frogs. Teaming with amphibioid outsiders. It would really be weird if that weren't the case. *** Can you imagine a Batrachi thousands of years ago talking to an Aeree and asking: "You know it's kind of weird... I'm a frog person and you're a bird person, and all our gods look like humans." "What's a human?" says the Aeree. "I don't know," replies the Batrachi "they haven't evolved yet. But their gonna look a lot like our gods and angels." *** This of course presumes that life even evolved on Toril and went through millions of years of evolution, and was not just created by the gods and plopped down on Toril about 40,000 years ago. In that sense the Great Tree might also share some similarities with the Tree of Life. You know, the one with all the species on it that hung on the wall in biology class?
GothicDan 09-08-04, 11:55 PM	Heh. Here's where I take my leave of the discussion, as it's referencing the Great Tree, which I don't use. :)
Graz'zt, Prince of Shadow 09-09-04, 12:49 AM	Before life creeped out of the oceans on to the shores of Faerun, were the planes filled with extraplanar jellyfish? Did fish gods rule the planes? The Fated Depths might be a vestige of that era. Perhaps Blibdoolpoolp and Sekolah are millions of years old. Monster Mythology hints that the big four deities of the scalyfolk (Blipdoolpoolp, Merrshaulk, Io, and Shekinester) are old, old deities. All of them are regarded as very wise and very knowledgeable about ancient lore and magic. Blipdoolpoolp is said to know deep secrets about the fundamental fabric of the multiverse (Far Realms?) Merrshaulk is either seen as an all-powerful entity (yuan-ti mythology) or a splinter element of the core creative principle of the universe (couatl mythos; also found in Serpent Kingdoms). Shekinester guards the Arching Flame and by doing so maintains existance. And Io is said to have created the multiverse, or at the very least, created the potential for the multiverse. I'm sticking with my theory that the Batrachi, or at least a good chunk of them, "devolved" into the kuo-toa.
Zigra 09-09-04, 05:48 PM	Monster Mythology hints that the big four deities of the scalyfolk (Blipdoolpoolp, Merrshaulk, Io, and Shekinester) are old, old deities. All of them are regarded as very wise and very knowledgeable about ancient lore and magic. Blipdoolpoolp is said to know deep secrets about the fundamental fabric of the multiverse (Far Realms?) Merrshaulk is either seen as an all-powerful entity (yuan-ti mythology) or a splinter element of the core creative principle of the universe (couatl mythos; also found in Serpent Kingdoms). Shekinester guards the Arching Flame and by doing so maintains existance. And Io is said to have created the multiverse, or at the very least, created the potential for the multiverse. Don't forget that Jazirian is also part of that core group. In fact the Couatls believe that Jazirian is the the embodiement of the core creative principle of the universe (though the Dragons and Nagas will contest this). Of course, that doesn't really matter any more *glares at his copy of "Serpent Kingdoms".
Kain's avatar 09-09-04, 09:12 PM	Can you imagine a Batrachi thousands of years ago talking to an Aeree and asking: "You know it's kind of weird... I'm a frog person and you're a bird person, and all our gods look like humans." "What's a human?" says the Aeree. "I don't know," replies the Batrachi "they haven't evolved yet. But their gonna look a lot like our gods and angels." Err.. I can't imagine that happening, because humans were the slaves of the Sarrukh before the Sarrukh empire fell, which was quite a bit before the Batrachi or Aearee rose to power, perhaps even before they existed. ;)
Beleriphon 09-10-04, 01:59 AM	I think the best anser for the celestials looking like certain other races is this: Celestials are personifications of ideas. Ideas created by mortals. Celestials from certain planes tend to have certain mortal races that tend toward that alignment. Since most elves are chaotic good, and eladrin are chaotic good because they absorbed all of that chaotic good energy from elves, taking on an elfin vaguely form. Thats my theory anyways.
Gray Richardson 09-11-04, 07:45 PM	Glyth is the homeworld of the Illithids and H'Catha is the homeworld of the Beholders. These planets orbit the same sun as Toril and are seen as "wanderers" or planets in Toril's night sky. If Chauntea is the personification of Toril, then it stands to reason that Glyth might have a god who is the personification of Glyth who lives in a plane similar to the House of Nature, but filled with Glythian wildlife, attached to the astral plane that attaches to the geography of Glyth. I would imagine this is not Illsensine or Maanzecorian, but a homebody god that would not travel with the Illithids when they colonized Toril. In fact there is probably a whole pantheon of Illithid gods and maybe Githyanki/Githzerai gods back home in planes surrounding the Astral attached to Glyth. Likewise I imagine there are Beholder gods aplenty, including the incarnation of the Planet H'Catha itself, to be found in whatever assortment of planes is linked to H'Catha by its attendant Astral. By the way I think I remember it speculated that Gith, the leader of the Githyanki/Githzerai rebellion might have been named after her homeworld and that the name Gith might be a corruption of the name of the planet Glyth. I think I rember reading that in the Guide to the Astral Plane.
Gray Richardson 09-12-04, 02:04 PM	Here is another thought about the Supreme Throne. In 2E Cyric's Shattered Castle was located in Pandemonium. Not a lot of other Realms gods lived here except a couple of the Gods of Fury (Talos & Auril) that have been resettled in Fury's Heart. Interestingly enought the Queen of Air & Darkness held her Unseelie Court in Pandemonium in 2E. Which has got me thinking about a possible alternative origin of the plane. Back when the Sylvan creator race held sway, their deities lived in the plane of Faerie which now has only tentative connections to the Great Tree and is not even counted as one of the planes in the Faerunian Cosmology. It has presumably slipped beyond the Astral, or maybe it was never part of the Tree in the first place and was always part of some other cosmology but had maintained strong links with Faerun due to the belief of the Sylvan folk. Anyway, is it possible that the Faerie gods held more than one plane? Is it possible that the Dark Faeries, the Unseelie Court had their own plane--sort of a Faerie "Hell" in the Great Tree cosmology? Perhaps this is the plane reclaimed by Cyric? I can imagine circumstances where the Unseelie Court might have held this realm some 30,000 years or so ago at the height of the Faerie civilization on Faerun. Then they abandonned this realm for greener pastures. It is speculated that the Tanar'ri (or Dragons) might have engineered a plague to wipe out the Sylvan creator race. Perhaps this was a war started by the Unseelie themselves. Perhaps the Tanar'ri had a Blood War with the Unseelie, who knows why the war started but I can easily see the Tanar'ri getting into a war with the Unseelie. The Unseelie were forced to abandon their plane. Or maybe their power diminished so much that they still yet have a weak presence on the plane but not enough to stave off the Slaadi and Demodand invaders/squatters/usurpers that moved in and settled the plane. Maybe when the Batrachi left Faerun (we don't know why, maybe it was voluntary, or maybe they fled from something. They could have fled from the same Tanar'ri war on Faerun that killed off a goodly portion of the Sylvan Creator race) it's possible that the Batrachi fled to this abandonned plane and evolved into the Slaadi. Or maybe Apomps moved in and chased off all the Unseelie with his Gehrelths/Demodands. I have no evidence that the Unseelie ever lived on the plane that is now called the Supreme Throne, it's just an idle speculation based on a 2E factoid that back in 2E they used to live in pandemonium. Yet the idea intrigues me quite a bit.
Gray Richardson 09-12-04, 03:03 PM	Here is another theory about the Supreme Throne. We know that the Titans were all slain or kicked off of Faerun back in the time that the Giant civilization held sway. There are a couple of myths regarding their demise. One involving that the Titans tried to rival the gods and so got smote by a meteor in a great catastrophe that also created the Sea of Fallen Stars. (Heck this myth makes it sound like the Titans were researching something akin to the Karsus Avatar spell and when the gods got wind of it they called in a premptory first strike.) The other myth from Giantcraft involves the god or progenitor of the Titans (can't remember his name, don't have the book handy) who was a victim of the conflict between his father Annam and his mother Othea, he was forced to take a side against one or the other and was tragically slain or banished with his people. Anyway, it is possible that the Titans settled or were imprisoned in the plane that is now known as the Supreme Throne. Perhaps the Demodands were created and placed on this plane to punish/guard the Titans. Maybe Titans still live here. Maybe they were slain long ago and the Supreme Throne is the tomb for their titanic remains.
Gray Richardson 09-12-04, 03:09 PM	The Treants are said to be an interloper race that gated to Faerun from another world or universe. I had wondered in an earlier post about whether they brought any gods with them. I found a name of the Treant deity from the core game back in 2E. The name of their god is/was Emmantiensien. Treants no longer worship him though in Faerun. They seem to have taken other Faerunian nature dieties for their patrons. But what happened to Emmantiensien of the treants? Did they bring him over when they came to Faerun or leave him behind? Did he die? Did he take root and persist as a great tree somewhere in the Realms? Maybe he is actually Grandfather Tree. Or maybe he became the world ash that links all the celestial planes together. It could be that the world tree has its origins tied up in the Emmantiensien myth in some fashion.
Zigra 09-12-04, 07:14 PM	Well, we know one thing. Back in 2E, Cyric's realm was on the same plane where Kezef was imprisioned. I'm betting this still holds true in 3E, despite the cosmology alterations. Supreme Throne could have originally been a place where the Gods banished Outer Planar monstrosities, much like the Olypmpian Gods banished the Titans to Tartarus. And speaking of the Titans, I doubt Supreme Throne was originally their realm. Lanaxis (that's his name;) ), progenitor of the Titans, was one of Annam and Othea's children. So he, and the Titans, probably dwelled in Jotunheim along with the other Giantish Gods. I'm betting that, if anything, Supreme Throne is/was Limbo. Since Limbo was a place of utter madness and chaos, and since Supreme Throne is also a plane of madness and chaos, I wouldn't be suprised if the two were the same.
Gray Richardson 09-12-04, 07:42 PM	speaking of the Titans, I doubt Supreme Throne was originally their realm. Lanaxis (that's his name ), progenitor of the Titans, was one of Annam and Othea's children. So he, and the Titans, probably dwelled in Jotunheim along with the other Giantish Gods.Ah Lanaxis, thanks! Well, I was thinking that if they got kicked off or banished from Faerun--something to do with Lanaxis poisoning his mother Othea (mother of the giant deties) if I remember vaguely--then they would probably be persona-non-grata in Jotunheim as well. Unless they have been forgiven since that time. I don't know if they would have been imprisoned in the Supreme Throne/Limbo or just fled there to escape Annam's wrath. Or did Annam ask Lanaxis to murder his mom? I don't remember... Anyway, I don't see Titans listed anywhere in the Jotunheim entry in the PGtF. I don't know if they can be found there or not. I think I may have to find my copy of Giantcraft and read up on giant lore to refresh my memory of Giant mythology in Faerun.
Gray Richardson 09-12-04, 07:49 PM	Well, we know one thing. Back in 2E, Cyric's realm was on the same plane where Kezef was imprisioned. I'm betting this still holds true in 3E, despite the cosmology alterations. Supreme Throne could have originally been a place where the Gods banished Outer Planar monstrosities, much like the Olypmpian Gods banished the Titans to Tartarus. I am not sure if that is correct. According to the below article Kezef was imprisoned on the Barrens of Doom and Despair. Cyric has since released Kezef so maybe Kezef now lairs with Cyric over on the Supreme Throne. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=books/fr/elderevil Your comment about the Titans being banished to Tartarus however was indeed partly my inspiration for thinking the Titans of Faerun might be banished to the Supreme Throne.
Zigra 09-12-04, 08:07 PM	Well, as far as Giant mythology goes, I suggest you read Ulutiu's profile in "Powers and Pantheons". "Giantcraft" may tell what the Giants believe happened, but Ulutiu's profile in P&P tells us what really happened. I'm not sure if Annam would have been the one to banish Lanaxis. For one thing, Ulutiu and Othea banished Annam from the Realms, so he might not have had any say in what should be done to Lanaxis. Even then, I'm not sure whether Annam would agree to what Lanaxis did or not. Othea did betray Annam (though, as P&P says, she was more than a little justified), but I don't know if he'd want her dead because of it.
Gray Richardson 09-26-04, 11:08 AM	Here is a question to consider: Do the planes of the Great Tree have layers? We know that Baator, the Abyss and Mount Celestia have layers. But do the other planes tend to have multiple layers like the Great Wheel cosmology or do they favor single layer planes? Do divine realms tend to be spread out on the same plane or do they occupy separate layers? The PGtF gives the impression of leaning toward a single layer for most planes, but I could see the divine realms of the gods of Fury on Fury's Heart seggregating into separate layers. Nishrek could also easily have distinct layers, with the goblins, hobgoblins and kobolds holding their territory in 3 different layers that are coterminous so that they can all get together and fight. The Supreme Throne might also have distinct layers, one for the slaadi, and another for the Demodands, and a third layer for Cyric all to himself perhaps. However, I tend to see the House of Nature as one big plane with divine realms running into each other like the borders of nations. The Barrens of Doom and Despair also strike me as a single layer. The House of the Triad is interesting because we know that Celestia has 7 layers. Do the mountains of Tyr, Torm & Ilmater count as separate layers too? (Like in Gehenna where each mountain was a separate layer.) And if so does each mountain count as one layer or is it divided into seven layers as well (or if not as tall as Celestia maybe a fewer number of layers?) and if they do have layers are they separate unto themselves or each coterminous with the corresponding layer on the other three mountains? Or perhaps the other 3 mountains are all on the same plane as Celestia's first layer and only celestia has the 6 additional layers. Layers: just something to think about.
Zigra 09-26-04, 07:32 PM	Just speculation on my part, but I think it varies from plane to plane. The gods create and shape these planes to whatever they wish them to be (as opposed to the gods having to conform to some pre-existing cosmological setup like was the case with the Great Wheel). So, some planes may have multiple layers, some may be more like one single layer with realms bordering each other like seperate nations. It all depends on the whim of the gods or beings dwelling in that plane.
Gray Richardson 09-27-04, 09:25 PM	I would like to retract my previous post that said halflings were native to Toril. Even though the FRCS seems to say that halflings are native to Toril, the book Races of Faerun seems to say that they are not. The matter appears to be confused. Races of Faerun states they are newcomers and that they popped up suddenly about 25,000 years ago near one geographic area. It doesn't say where they came from. And it leaves open the possibility they could have just been recently created by Yondalla or something. But it is not for certain what their origins are. If that is the case then we should alter the cosmology timeline to indicate that the plane of Green Fields (probably) came into existence about 25,000 years ago after the time of the Giants, sometime near the begining of the First Flowering.
Gray Richardson 09-27-04, 09:42 PM	I don't know if this was discussed or not already but I had previously been under the assumption that Elves came from another prime material world such as Greyhawk or an elf world somewhere perhaps a lot like Tolkien's Middle Earth. Not so. Turns out Races of Faerun pretty much pinpoints their origin as coming from the plane of Faerie. I don't know if that is their homeworld or if they just passed through Faerie from somewhere else to get to Faerun, but this opens up so many questions about the plane of Faerie and its relationship to elves, as well as the lost Faerie gods, the Seelie and Unseelie courts and the Sylvan creator race. Faerie is also said to be where the Eladrins came from. I feel there must be a richly wonderful epic story to be told about Faerie and the coming of the elves and the Eladrin to the Great Tree and the unsung history of the Sylvan creator race. I am completely in the dark about what this story might be. Anyone know any sources that can shed some light on the connections between the plane of Faerie and the Realms? I heard rumors that Gwendolyn F. M. Kestrel, author of the illustrious Fey Features articles is now writing stuff for the Realms. Maybe she will turn her awesome talent to illuminating the history of Faerie in the Realms and the Great Tree. I have high hopes that the Forgotten Realms Fiends book that is rumored to be published next year will address some of the mysteries and histories of the planes of the FR cosmology.
Kuje31 09-27-04, 10:18 PM	Anyone know any sources that can shed some light on the connections between the plane of Faerie and the Realms? Elaine's Evermeet novel from 2e. :) And actually not all of the elves came from Faerie. Some of them existed on Faerun before that. The Wild elves I believe. :) Elaine also used Unseelie in her Haluraa novels.
Gray Richardson 09-27-04, 10:45 PM	Elaine's Evermeet novel from 2e. :) And actually not all of the elves came from Faerie. Some of them existed on Faerun before that. The Wild elves I believe. :) Elaine also used Unseelie in her Haluraa novels.Hmmm... I hear great things about that book. I'm going to have to make an effort to read that soon.
Gray Richardson 09-27-04, 11:01 PM	Here's a thought. Maybe some of the Elves of Faerun are refugees from Ortho. Ortho is a prime material world devoted utterly to law. It has no elves. Apparently the elves were too chaotic for the orderly vision of the people in power on Ortho and the elves were "dealt with" in some fashion. Presumably exterminated in pogroms. Perhaps a goodly portion of the elven population of Ortho beseached the realm of Faerie for sanctuary and were evacuated. After a period of time they found the lightly populated & heavily forrested world of Toril and resettled there. Either that or maybe the Sylvan creator race offered the elves of Ortho sanctuary and the Seelie facilitated their travel to Faerun through Faerie.
Kuje31 09-27-04, 11:14 PM	Here's a thought. Maybe some of the Elves of Faerun are refugees from Ortho. Ortho is a prime material world devoted utterly to law. It has no elves. Apparently the elves were too chaotic for the orderly vision of the people in power on Ortho and the elves were "dealt with" in some fashion. Presumably exterminated in pogroms. Perhaps a goodly portion of the elven population of Ortho beseached the realm of Faerie for sanctuary and were evacuated. After a period of time they found the lightly populated & heavily forrested world of Toril and resettled there. Either that or maybe the Sylvan creator race offered the elves of Ortho sanctuary and the Seelie facilitated their travel to Faerun through Faerie. Maybe and BTW that's the world where the Harmonium are from originally. :)
Graz'zt, Prince of Shadow 09-28-04, 01:04 AM	I don't think the Harmonium is that old - 600 years at most. I'm getting the speck of an idea linking the Seldarine, the Sylvian creator race, the Seelie and Unseelie Courts and the leShay (from the ELH).
Gray Richardson 09-28-04, 01:23 AM	You are probably right, the elves migrated to Toril sometime around 25,000 years or so ago. If the Ortho holocaust happened only 600 years ago that would be way too recent. Hmmm... the LeShay. They ought to be in the mix too. Maybe someday Eric Boyd & Gwendolyn Kestrel will write "Sylvan Kingdoms" and we will learn the whole story. :)
Cole Deschain 09-28-04, 02:23 AM	I'm not sure if Annam would have been the one to banish Lanaxis. He wasn't. Lanaxis was banished by his mother's dying curse- he'd not only poisoned her, but also all but one of his brothers. Dunmore, the Voadkyn progenitor, apparently skulked off somewhere.
Gray Richardson 09-28-04, 08:51 AM	By the way, Manual of the planes has a brief write-up on the plane of Faerie on p. 210. The Seelie are the equivalent of half-celestial elves and the unseelie are the equivalent of half-fiend elves. I doubt they are actually half-fiend or half-celestial but I guess if you use those templates you have a pretty good approximation of what the Seelie and Unseelie can do. Oddly enough, Faerie only attaches to the material plane and has no connection to the Astral or any of the transitive planes. Spells that use other planes don't work in Faerie.
Graz'zt, Prince of Shadow 09-28-04, 10:47 PM	Going back to the subject of other inhabitants of the Supreme Throne, I was rereading Faiths and Pantheons when I came across this in Tyr's History/Relationships section: Tyr's host slew Valigan Thirdborn, a lesser deity of anarchy The ascention of Valigan is said to coincide with a pogram against elves. Perhaps the Thirdborn was a previous resident of Cyric's crib?
Gray Richardson 09-29-04, 01:00 AM	A deity of Anarchy? I am intrigued! It's very possible he used to live in Cyric's shattered castle. I suppose it is also possible that Tyr was the one who shattered it.
Gray Richardson 10-15-04, 05:33 PM	And what of Diinkarazan--insane god of the Derro? He was imprisoned by Ilsensine for stealing the secrets of magic. I had read that Ilsensine imprisoned him in Diinkarazan's own realm--which in 2E was in the Abyss I believe. Perhaps he is still imprisoned in the Abyss, but if there are no divine realms there then the Supreme Throne in all its madness might be a good revised location for Diinkarazan. Alternatively he could be in Hammergrim, which better fits his dwarven heritage, but not his chaotic nature. Lastly he might be imprisoned in Deep Caverns which would be near to Ilsensine and a good fit for him as a god of the underdark.
Zigra 10-15-04, 06:11 PM	And what of Diinkarazan--insane god of the Derro? He was imprisoned by Ilsensine for stealing the secrets of magic. I had read that Ilsensine imprisoned him in Diinkarazan's own realm--which in 2E was in the Abyss I believe. Perhaps he is still imprisoned in the Abyss, but if there are no divine realms there then the Supreme Throne in all its madness might be a good revised location for Diinkarazan. Alternatively he could be in Hammergrim, which better fits his dwarven heritage, but not his chaotic nature. Lastly he might be imprisoned in Deep Caverns which would be near to Ilsensine and a good fit for him as a god of the underdark. A good place for Diinkarazan in the Great Tree cosmology would probably be a demiplane within Deep Caverns created by Ilsensine. I think that's what I'd go with.Or, perhaps, Diinkazaran is trapped in a completely seperate individual plane that has yet to be documented in any sourcebooks (I still hold to the belief that the planes listed in "Players Guide to Faerun" are not the only planes in the Great Tree cosmology). Two other deities that we might take into consideration are the Blood Queen (of the aboleths) and Ilxendren (of the ixitxachitl). Since they are both prominent in the Underdark, would they be found in Deep Caverns, or in another plane?
Gray Richardson 10-15-04, 07:47 PM	Hmmmm... The more I ponder it, the more I am starting to think that the Abyss and Baator and probably also Celestia might just be interloper planes. The heirarchies in those planes are clones of those in Greyhawk and other prime worlds. For this to have happened then some worshippers must have imported them from another Prime Material Universe--just as the Elves brought Arvandor & the Seldarine with them when they interloped over from (or via) Faerie. But when could they have been brought over? I am pretty sure they did not have a presence at the begining of the universe. There is no mention of them in the history presented in the FRCS. They don't seem to fit into the evolving early mythology of the Faerunian pantheon. But they did start to figure into Faerun's mythology by the time the creator races came on the scene. They appear to have been in existence at the time the Sarrukh became a great power, as the Sarrukh and the scaly races are shown to have trafficked with demons. So the Abyss has been around at least as long as 35,000 years. Perhaps the Abyss interloped over with the ixitxachitl, demon-worshiping evil manta rays. Or perhaps the Abyss interloped into the Great Tree when primordial creatures first started to use magic and started trying to summon things. They had to have some place to summon them from, right? Alternatively the Abyss and the Nine Hells could be an example of parallel evolution. The product of a natural and inevitable process that occurs in all cosmologies when primordial creatures such as insects and other creepy crawly things first started to rise to sentience and seek to worship something. The Tanar'ri and Baatezu could be the earliest gods that evolved to service the needs of ancient but primitive creatures. Then perhaps the avatars of Asmodeus, Levistus, Demogorgon, Orcus and the others that we know and love so well interloped over later and took over the Abyss and Baator that they found in Realmspace, Terraforming them (or infernoforming them as it were) to more resemble the Baator & Abyss as we know them in the present day. Here is a different theory. Perhaps there was a time when the Great Tree was attached to a True, Unfragmented Baator, and a True Abyss, connecting to the Great Wheel or some greater network of multiverses through the Abyss and Baator (and maybe Celestia.) And then for some reason Ao decreed a separation, severing the great roots of the Tree that connected to those planes. He might have decreed that if they wanted to maintain a presence in Realmspace they would have to create clones/avatars of themselves and follow the rules he had set out for the other interloper gods. If it did happen like that (and it's just a theory, there's no evidence to support that it did or didn't happen that way) what could have provoked Ao to make that decree? Could the Blood War have spilled into Realmspace causing some early cataclysm? Could the fiends in their exuberance have wiped out an unknown antediluvian civilization that predated the creator races? For instance, Jergal kind of looks like a Thri-Kreen. This seems to suggest that the Thri-Kreen or another long-forgotten insectoid race once held sway on the face of Toril and worshipped Jergal as a god, worshipping him in an insectoid form that he has preserved ever since. Perhaps the Thri-Kreen had an amazing civilization that spread across the face of Toril and which rivaled Netheril in its heyday but of which all traces were wiped out by the Blood War. Maybe Toril had to lay fallow for a time before it regenerated and the creator races came along eons afterward, believing themselves to be the first. Or it is rumored that the Tanar'ri wiped out the Sylvan Creator race with a genocidal plague. Maybe that was the incident which incited Ao to lay down the law. When the Seldarine came to Realmspace, Ao made them follow the interloper deities rule--requiring them to create separate Toril clones of themselves if they wanted to service their elven worshipers that had migrated to Toril. Perhaps in turn the Seldarine demanded that Ao then apply the same rule to the Tanar'ri and Baatezu and he complied. The above are only a few possible solutions to this mystery. I hope someday that bits of the true story about how the Abyss & Baator came to interlope over into the Great Tree will come to light.
Gray Richardson 10-15-04, 07:53 PM	Two other deities that we might take into consideration are the Blood Queen (of the aboleths) and Ilxendren (of the ixitxachitl). Since they are both prominent in the Underdark, would they be found in Deep Caverns, or in another plane?Well the Blood Queen should be best suited to the Blood Rift of course! And Ilxendren, hmmmm... probably the Fated Depths with the other evil sea creature gods. Or alternatively Ilxendren may just be an aspect of Umberlee who answers prayers in Ilxendren's name.
Gray Richardson 11-06-04, 03:17 PM	We know the Elves migrated to Toril through Faerie, but do not know if they were native to Faerie or used Faerie as a transitive plane to come from some other world. There is a world already well established in Realms continuity that the Elves may have come from. Just prior to the time of the Orcgate wars (-1081 DR) the theurgist adept Thayd one of the last surviving surface-dwelling Imaskari, opened a portal to a savage world dominated by empires of fanatically religious orcs. These Orcs streamed through the portal in hordes resulting in the devastating Orcgate wars in Mulhorand and Unther. We know these orcs worshipped the same Orcish pantheon as the Faerunian orcs, that of Gruumsh and his ilk. The tales of Corellon and Gruumsh are so fundamental to Elven myths, we can speculate that the Elves might have fled a world where orc populations had exploded to the point of swarming the world like locusts in great hordes. Elven myths tell of great battles between Corellon and Gruumsh, it seems logical to assume that the Elves had to flee their world when they lost the war against incursions by the relentless tide of orcs invading their territories. I propose that the Orcworld where the Orcgate orcs came from in -1076 used to be the home of the Elves some 30,000 years ago before they abandonned their world to the orcs, fleeing as refugees through Faerie to Toril. Whether this Orc World is another planet within Realmspace (perhaps orbiting another star) or whether it is a world from another prime material plane bridged to Toril through Faerie who knows, but I think it is a good candidate for the original elf homeworld. Which might even explain why Thayd opened a gate there. Perhaps he was looking for the original elf homeworld, seeking Elven High Magic artifacts or lost Elven magical knowledge to supplement his own. Perhaps he found the world he was looking for but got something very different than what he expected!
Gray Richardson 11-06-04, 05:00 PM	We know the Aarakocra tend to worship Aerdrie Faenya these days, but Aerdrie Faenya and the Seldarine are interloper gods that arived after the height of the Aeree creator race civilization. The Aeree could not therefore have worshipped Aerdrie Faenya, at least not in the begining. Presumably they worshipped Syranita goddess of the Aarakocra, or Quorlinn god of the Kenku, or a pantheon which may or may not have been something like the the pantheon named the asathalfinare, although the origin of the name asathalfinare is elven which would have come after the Aeree, so no doubt they did not call themselves the asathalfinare at the time. What is puzzling is whether the Aeree were a separate race that created or were ancestors of the Aarakocra, the Kenku and the Dire Corbies, or whether the 3 races together made up the Aeree and are just distinct racial types. Perhaps their very names were something like the Aeree-Kocra, the Aeree-Kenku and the Aeree-Korbee some tens of thousands of years ago and the names just changed over time as the races diverged geoprahically and physically. It seems the Aeree may have diverged physically due to isolation of their populations. The Aarakocra colonized Maztica and Anchorome and parts West, while the Kenku migrated East to Kara-Tur, and the Dire Corbies (or Korbee) colonized the underdark. But what happened to the the Faerunian Aeree? Their empire lasted from circa -31,000 DR to -30,000 DR which was just about the time the Dragons took over. Could the Faerunian Aeree have been wiped out by the advent of the Dragons? Seems plausible. There are a few Aarakocra left in the realms, but I wonder if those are remnants of the Aeree or descendents of settlers that recolonized Faerun back from Maztica or Anchorome after the Aeree were wiped out. Syranita has no presence in Faerun any longer. I wonder if that is because Syranita died in a great battle with the Dragon pantheon, or if she just migrated over to Maztica and has taken up with the Maztican deities. The Sylvan creator race was also active during this time and it is possible that Syranita could also have been killed in a conflict with the Unseelie gods. Syranita was friendly with Aerdrie Faenya, who may have had a presence in Toril at this time so that upon Syranita's passing Aerdrie Faenya took over the care of her flock, maybe even answering prayers in Syranita's name for a time. Or Syranita could have just been forgotten and faded away as her people that were left in Faerun grew to worship Aerdrie Faenya while the Western Aarakocra switched to the worship of the Maztican gods. It may be that Quorlinn migrated East with the Kenku and now resides in the Kara-Turan astral with the Celestial Bureaucracy. And what dark god did the Corbies worship? Was there an avian version of Lolth? A raven god? Did they turn to demon worship, coming under the sway of Demogorgon? Or perhaps they worshipped Shar or even Ibrandul. What could have driven them (or inspired them)--a species from the skies!--to take up residence below in the dark and confined depths of the earth? And what happened to the Aeree heaven? Now it is possible that the divine plane of the Avian pantheon imploded or slipped beyond the Astral. But I have a suggestion. We know that (in 2E) Syranita's realm was in Arborea and her divine realm was named Whistledge. Arborea is called Arvandor in the FR Great Tree cosmology. Now the Seldarine interloped over somewhere around -25,000 DR, although I can't swear they hadn't come over earlier. The Faerie were present in Faerun as early as -34,000 DR, so the Seldarine could have started to have a presence that far back, history is muddy on this point. Suppose the Seldarine came over to service their refugee elven worshippers fleeing the orc menace (or some catastrophe) that had befallen their original homeworld. Perhaps Syranita and the other Avian deities gave the Seldarine refuge in their plane of Arborea (or whatever they were calling it back then.) Maybe Arvandor was originally the Aeree heaven, and the elves took it over after the Aeree died out or went away. The elves could have certainly made their own plane when they interloped over, but why would they need to when the friendly Aeree gods were offering to share their realm? Just a thought. It may even be that Aerdrie Faenya is Syranita. Maybe Syranita became so intertwined and associated with the Seldarine that she molted and metamorphosed into an elven incarnation. Or maybe when she died, Syranita passed on her divinity to an avariel follower named Aerdrie Faenya similar to what happened with Mystra/Midnight, or Moander/Finder Wyverspur.
Zigra 11-07-04, 12:10 AM	Interesting points, Gray. It's also possible that the avian gods will be restored in future sourcebooks, as the concept of the Aaracokra worshiping Aedrie Feyna was introduced during WOTC's "no monster deities but those listed below" phase. We all know what became of that;)
Gray Richardson 11-11-04, 02:06 AM	I ran across the Tengu in Oriental Adventures. They look like cousins of the Kenku. But unlike the Kenku they have wings and can fly. I wonder if the Tengu have a presence in the Realms? If so then the Tengu could be yet a fourth branch of the Aeree Creator Race. Also Chronotryn look very avian. I wonder if they are tied to the Aeree in some fashion? They could be planar descendents of Aeree who migrated to the Planes. Or if not directly related to the Aeree the chronotryn might still be linked to Aeree mythology somehow. Perhaps the chronotryn served the Avian pantheon (back when it still existed some 30,000 years ago) as divine agents, kind of like the archons, angels and eladrin often act in the service of gods from their home planes.
Gray Richardson 11-11-04, 02:29 AM	Just for reference you should really check out this cool thread here for more interesting discussion about Realms creation myths and the order in which the gods came into being: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=280747
Gray Richardson 11-26-04, 05:36 PM	The 2E supplement On Hallowed Ground has a lot of info about Arvandor including a wonderful map that illustrates many of the mythical and divine places described in the Players Guide to Faerun. One of the intriguing tidbits mentioned in On Hallowed Ground (p. 94) is that the Seldarine won the realestate of Arvandor from the Giants and that Giant ruins dot the landscape of Arvandor. If this can still be viewed as canon then it confirms my suspicions that Arvandor was not created out of whole cloth when the Seldarine interloped into the Realms from whatever other world they came from. From this one could deduce that Arvandor was either once a part of the plane of Jotunheim that the Seldarine conquered and ripped free (much like Lolth has recently ripped her Demonwebs free of the Abyss and installed them as a plane in their own right) or it was a separate plane or layer from Jotunheim that was under Giant dominion. Whether it was part of Jotunheim or separate, in either case it leads to some interesting historical and mythic questions: 1) If it was part of Jotunheim, did the Seldarine just invade and steal it from the Giants? Or alternatively, might the Seldarine have been invited out of friendship by the the Giants to establish a realm in Jotunheim and then later they had a falling out leading the elves to split off their realm? 2) If the plane was separate from Jotunheim to begin with then that begs the question whether it was originally inhabited by Giants (or maybe the Titans or some alternative Giant pantheon)--or whether the Giants had taken the plane in turn from some previous race or pantheon. Perhaps the Giants invaded the plane and took it in a war with the Aeree pantheon, or perhaps the Giants just colonized the plane after it was abandonned by the dying or vanishing Aeree gods. If that's the case then I could imagine a scenario where the exiled Syranita befriended the recently interloping Seldarine and entreated them to help her win back her lost plane. This would make sense since we know that there were once close ties between the Seldarine and the Asathalfinare (that is if the Asathalfinare or some version of it has any place left in the revised 3E history of the Realms.) Anyway, there are Giant ruins dotting the glades and meadows of Arvandor's forrests. The implications of that sets my imagination alight.
Zigra 11-27-04, 01:29 AM	Anyway, there are Giant ruins dotting the glades and meadows of Arvandor's forrests. The implications of that sets my imagination alight. Indeed. However, I do wonder if any of the information presented in On Hollowed Ground is still considered canon for the 3E FR cosmology, but even if it isn't, that shouldn't stop imaginative DMs like us;) Also, if I had been the one writing that information (I can always dream), I think the Dwarven gods might have been a better choice for this than the Seldarine. The Dwarven deities are known to frequently come to blows with the evil Giant gods, so it would make sense that some Giantish deities originally dwelt in what is now the home of the Dwarven pantheon before being banished.
Gray Richardson 11-27-04, 04:08 AM	However, I do wonder if any of the information presented in On Hollowed Ground is still considered canon for the 3E FR cosmology Good point. That's a BIG "IF"! However, I will go on the assumption that 2E lore is still valid until/unless specifically revised or overwritten by a 3E product. The info in the PGtF though does actually seem to reaffirm the info from On Hallowed Ground, at least in part, because a lot of what it mentions is the same as what is described in On Hallowed Ground. The map of Arvandor is especially beautiful and I think still matches mostly pretty good with the information presented in the Players Guide to Faerun. Other maps in On Hallowed Ground of relevance to 3E realms cosmology is the section of the map of the Celtic Pantheon, not the whole thing, but the portion that details Oghma's realm of the House of Knowledge is similar to what is in the PGtF regarding his realm. Also the map of Heliopolis of the Egyptian Pantheon, the map of Lolth's Demonweb pits, the map of Flandal Steelskin's Mithral Forge (one of the seven hills of the Gnome pantheon's plane of the Golden Hills) and the map of the Green Fields of the Halfling pantheon. Some of these maps might need slight revisions to conform to 3E lore but otherwise still hold up pretty well I think. Not only that but the book is chock full of descriptions and lore about each deity's realm. On Hallowed Ground just may be my favorite 2E book! :cloud9:
Kuje31 11-27-04, 01:00 PM	That's because On Hallowed Ground was one of the many planescape books and box sets that were referenced for the Player's Guide. :) That text is listed right on the first page of the book near the bottom. And Gray is also right with his assumption because WOTC has said as much in thier FAQ that old lore still exists unless rewritten with new lore.
Zigra 11-28-04, 03:02 AM	On Hallowed Ground just may be my favorite 2E book! :cloud9: Say, Gray, do you know where I could find On Hallowed Ground? That's been one of those books that I've been looking for for quite some time, but I can't find it anywhere (it seems to have been a rare item even back when it was first published).
Gray Richardson 11-28-04, 04:41 AM	On Hallowed Ground unfortunately does not appear to be available to buy from SVgames or RPGnow. I really, really wish the good Wizards might kindly consider making it a pdf download either on their old edition downloads or as a product for purchase from one of their licensed pdf vendors. (Pretty please?) I got mine from my local used bookstore where I see it pop up every once in a blue moon. Check your local used bookstores and gaming stores. Failing that you might try Ebay or any of the fine used book search sites on the net. If I ever see one pop up in my local used bookstore again I will snatch it for you. Although I promised Rip that he would get the next one I find. :)
Gray Richardson 01-01-05, 07:17 PM	An interesting note about Brightwater. It seems to be one of those planes that has had some interesting changes in recent years. Firstly, Sharess's divine realm is only a recent addition to this plane occuring around 1359 DR in the wake of the Time of Troubles. Prior to 1358 DR Sharess appears to have had her realm in the plane of Shadow as the servent of Shar. Shar tried to kill her during the Time of Troubles and Sune successfully wooed her away from Shar's influence and set her up in Brightwater in her own quarter of the city called Rapture. In Powers & Pantheons it mentions that Sharess also maintains a divine realm named Merratet in her incarnation as the Mulhorandi deity Bast which was attached to Ysgard in 2E but I imagine is (possibly) still attached to the plane of Heliopolis in 3E. Secondly, Waukeen's divine realm the Marketplace Eternal is also a recent addition, apparently having been moved there by Liira in the wake of the Time of Troubles when Waukeen was kidnapped by Graz'zt and Liira guarded Waukeen's portfolio for her as regent. Prior to this, Waukeen's realm was said to be attached to the plane of the Outlands in 2E. In 3E the closest possible candidates for the former location of the Marketplace Eternal are the House of Nature (doubtful) or the House of Knowledge (most likely due to this planes 2E ties to the Outlands and Waukeen's close ties to Gond) or possibly a plane unto itself or even a realm already located somewhere on the plane of Brightwater. I suppose that when Waukeen was finally freed from her captivity in the Abyss around 1371 DR that she was content with the new location of her realm and left it where it was as part of the city of Brightwater. Thirdly, Planescape Planes of Chaos mentions that Brightwater is only about 50 years old. I don't know if this is still canon in 3E but nothing in 3E has retconned this 2E factoid. If it is still considered part of the history of Brightwater it makes for an interesting point of planar history. It is unclear from what exact date Brightwater was founded 50 years prior to. Planes of Chaos mentions that Waukeen was currently missing so the founding of Brightwater would have to be 50 years prior to the time that Waukeen disappeared (1358 DR) and reappeared (1371 DR). So that indicates a date that falls somewhere between 1308 DR & 1321 DR. Of course mythical events may not have an exact chronological correspondence to prime-material events, so dates cannot sometimes be accurately pinpointed with regards to the planes. With the 3E revision to the cosmology I don't know if this 50 year old founding applies to the creation of the entire plane or if it refers to the date that the 3 original founding goddesses (Sune, Liira & Tymora) consolidated their separate divine realms (or planes or layers) into a unified city. It may be that Brightwater is a completely new plane or had already been around a long time as home to one or more of the 3 founding goddesses. It would be interesting to know the locations and state of their realms prior to their unification into the city of Brightwater. Some speculations about where Sune's realm might have been prior to 1308 DR: if it wasn't alreadly located on the Plane of Brightwater, then it might have been attached to Hanalli Celanil's realm in Arvandor, or it might have been attached to Selune's realm in the Gates of the Moon, as Selune was serving Sune up until recently when they amicably parted ways. I can't find enough history regarding Liira or Tymora to speculate where their realms might have been located prior to the founding of Brightwater.
Gray Richardson 01-02-05, 10:26 PM	So in the creation myth the first war between Shar & Selune created the gods of War, Disease, Death & Murder and "other gods" from the residues of their battle. War was presumably Targus/Garagos (or his predecessor) Disease was possibly Talona or Moander or an unknown predecessor One might think that Jergal was death, but then who would be the god of Murder? Not Bhaal, because Jergal gave the portfolio of Murder to the ascended human Bhaal. Jergal held both the portfolios of Death & Murder until sometime after the fall of Netheril. But Jergal can't have held both portfolios originally because in the creation myth they were two separate gods. So two of the first deities somehow became consolidated into one deity by the time that Netheril came on the scene. Is it likely that they voluntarily or naturally merged their essences together somehow?... Doubtful! The most likely scenario is that the god of Murder probably murdered the god of Death and took his portfolio. Jergal (or his predecessor) therefore was probably the original god of Murder and presumably murdered the original god of Death--whoever that was (it may have been so early in the scheme of things that it occured before gods even had names)--thereby consolidating power in the first act of Tyranny, thus leading to Jergal taking the portfolio of Tyranny as well. I keep saying "or his predecessor" because we don't know for sure that Jergal was always that same god from the very begining--although he certainly could have been. Jergal looks like a mumified insectoid (possibly a thri-kreen). This could be an indicator that Jergal was a member of an unrecorded ancient insectoid race that could have arisen in the time before history before the first of the creator races arose. Jergal might have been a mortal insectoid that ascended to take the place of the deity of Murder/Death--much in the way that Midnight ascended to take the place of Mystra. Or Jergal might actually just be the original god who simply chose that form at some point and has not bothered to change his "look" ever since. I am stumped as to which plane the original god of Murder took/created for his divine Realm. Bhaal was located on the Barrens of Doom & Despair, but that came later. Perhaps Jergal created the Barrens from whence he mounted his attack on the original Death god on the Fugue Plane. But I like to think that the god of Disease (Talona?) created the Barrens. I don't know if Jergal cohabitated with her or founded his own plane. Presumably it was the original god of Death that created the Fugue Plane, so I don't know where that puts the god of Murder. Maybe in Baator or the Abyss or one of those "lost planes" that evaporated after he took over the Fugue plane abandoning his original home. He could have possibly even cohabitated with the Death god on the Fugue Plane. Maybe Jergal and Death even created the Fugue plane together. Heck, they could have been friendly towards each other at first, perhaps even like brothers or a married couple. If so, what events drove the wedge between them? Perhaps something to do with the war between Light & Darkness? Envy? Jealousy? The influence of another god? This untold myth might be as resonant for the Realms as the myth of Cain & Abel and the first Murder is to our culture.
Gray Richardson 01-03-05, 12:11 AM	How did the Abyss & Nine Hells & Blood Rift come to be a part of the Great Tree? The Abyss & Nine Hells seem to be clones of their counterparts on the Great Wheel. They could have possibly spawned independently in a remarkable feat of parallel evolution sometime after the creation of the universe. It may be that they represent some fundamental concept that causes them to grow as a part of new-born cosmologies. However this possibility seems like an awfully big stretch. It might be rather that when Ao first made Realmspace it's Astral could have been connected directly to the Hell & Abyss of the Great Wheel. Perhaps this didn't work out so good. Maybe the Blood War caused such havoc when it leaked into Realmspace that Ao intervened, severing the connections with the Wheel and forcing the Demon Princes and Arch-Devils to afterward follow Ao's interloper deity rules and spin off clones of themselves if they wanted to maintain a continued presence in the Realms. It is very likely the Demons & Devils are interlopers, they are too similar to their Great Wheel counterparts for any other explanation. However, the heirarchy of Hell as established by Ed Greenwood seems to indicate that the Nine Hells interloped into Realmspace before the Reckoning which later took place on the Great Wheel, as the Hells of the Realms seem to follow a more archaic command structure. If they were never originally connected to the Great Wheel, then what else might have caused them to interlope? We know these planes were well established before the Sarrukh took power some 35,000 years ago as the Sarrukh are documented to have had dealings with such fiends. Although it might have been their very dealings with those fiends that gave them entry into the Great Tree and allowed them to gain a foothold. Mershaulk, a fragment of the World Serpent could have established the Abyss and brought over demons. Another fragment of the World Serpent (maybe Ahriman?) could have founded Baator. The race of Ixitxachitl worshipped Demogorgon. These evil sea creatures could have brought him over. And once he got his foot in the door he brought a copy of the whole of the Abyss with him. Demons and Devils could have evolved when life first formed on Toril as the pseudo-gods of presapient evil creatures like insects, fungi and vermin. My latest theory I have been thinking about is that the fiends could have interloped over during the War of Light & Darkness when Shar or one of the newly formed fell gods of war, disease, death or murder made a pact with fiends from the Great Wheel to bring them into the Great Tree to fight as mercenaries in the War of Light & Darkness. Shar, as goddess of the Shadow Plane, would certainly know that Shadow connected to universe of the Great Wheel and could easily travel there to recruit troops to help her fight Selune. Or an adventurous & enterprising Yugoloth might have stumbled across the sphere of the Great Tree during the time of the War of Light & Darkness and offered to sign a contract with Shar to import fiendish mercs. This would have opened the door for the Yugoloths to come in and establish the Blood Rift as their HQ. The 'loths could then have imported the Abyss and the Hells as an extension of their grand Blood War experiment over on the Great Wheel. If the Yugoloth theory is correct, the 'Loths might even possibly be using the Great Tree of Realmspace as a "control" in their great experiment of the Blood War, studying the ramifications and effects of varying factors between the Blood War on the Great Wheel and the control environments on the Great Tree. In fact, it is possible that the Yugoloths may seek out as many new cosmologies as they can to try and set up additional instances of Baator & the Abyss so as to rigorously compile as much data as they can about their Blood War experiment in order to derive the truth about the true nature of Evil by use of the Scientific Method.
Gray Richardson 01-03-05, 02:01 AM	More thoughts on Brightwater: During the time of Netheril, Tyche was the sole god of luck. It is said her realm was named Olympus. But Olympus has no place in the 3E cosmology, does it? After a great deal of reflection I take that literally. When Tyche interloped into Realmspace she must have established a divine realm for herself and she probably called it Olympus after the plane she had come from. This divine realm could have been a plane in its own right or it could have been attached to Arvandor. During the Dawn Cataclysm when Tyche split into 2 halves, Beshaba set up her divine realm on the Barrens of Doom & Despair, but I believe Tymora must have kept Tyche's realm of Olympus as her own divine realm. In order not to contradict Elaine Cunningham's account of Corellon's battle with Gruumsh and the ensuing civil war with the Anti-Seldarine it seems to make the most sense to have Tyche's realm of Olympus be attached to Arvandor rather than a separate plane in its own right.
Gray Richardson 01-03-05, 02:11 AM	According to Elaine Cunningham, Auril the goddess of Winter once seemed to be more of a celestial or at least neutral deity that inhabited the unified plane of Olympus/Arvandor. She was cast out of the plane for allying herself with the Anti-Seldarine forces of Araushnee in the war against Corellon. Presumably Auril took up with Kozah and later established a new divine realm in Fury's Heart. Although it is possible that she might have spent some time in the Abyss with the other Anti-Seldarine. She was not part of the Netherese pantheon so either she maintained her godhood as part of some other pantheon far from Netheril for a few thousand years, or maybe she was busted down to demon princess status and stuck in the Abyss until after the fall of Netheril when she re-emerged as a goddess.
Gray Richardson 01-03-05, 02:31 AM	Sune did not exist during the time of Netheril and Selune had the portfolio of Beauty, not Sune, until at least after Netheril fell. Sune also does not appear to be an ascended mortal. So where did Sune come from? I believe Sune must be one of the many children of Selune mentioned in the FRCS. As the daughter of Selune she would have probably started out in the Gates of the Moon. Selune even took to serving Sune for a great long while. This strikes me as the actions of a mother stepping back and nurturing her daughter, giving her part of her portfolio and devoting herself to helping her daughter Sune to break out and shine. At some point Sune seems to have moved out of the Gates and probably set up her divine realm on the unified plane of Olympus/Arvandor. Her realm was probably located between Tyche's realm of Olympus and Hanali Celanil's realm--probably attached to the other side of Lake Evergold across the lake from Hanali's Crystal Palace. Liira's realm was also probably located on this plane nearby to Tyche & Sune. I imagine that the name "Olympus" fell out of general usage over time and became archaic... maybe as early as following the Dawn Cataclysm. In fact it was probably Tymora who started calling her realm Brightwater, or the Wheel of Fortune or somesuch after splitting off from Tyche in an attempt to distance herself from her "mother's" Greek origins. For whatever reason, Sune, Liira & Tymora seem to have decided to physically separate their realms from Arvandor and found the plane of Brightwater together sometime between 1308-1321 DR.
Gray Richardson 01-07-05, 12:20 AM	Faiths & Pantheons gives the arrival of the interloper deity Tyr as -247 DR in the Procession of Justice (a crusade to pacify the remnants of fallen Jhaamdath.) Ilmater joined with Tyr in -243 DR. Torm joined with the two and completed the Triad some number of years after the Procession ended in -238 DR. Assuming they added their personal mountains to the plane of Celestia in that order, then the plane of Celestia contained just the single mountain up until at least -247 DR, and could not have changed its name to the House of the Triad until some years following -238 DR.
Gray Richardson 01-07-05, 02:39 AM	Valigan Thirdborn was a lesser deity of Anarchy when he was slain circa -247 DR by Tyr. Faiths & Pantheons mentions that Valigan Thirdborn had a rise in -269 DR in Jhaamdath during a time of upheaval. This could mean that Valigan may have been just your run of the mill ascended mortal that obtained godhood sometime around -269 DR. But Anarchy is a component of disorder, lawlessness... chaos. This is a primal concept. One would think there had been a god of chaos around since time immemorial. What if Valigan had been around from the begining? The clue might be found in his name: Valigan Thirdborn. In the begining Ao created the universe, and after a period of timeless nothingness, the twin goddeses Shar & Selune coalesced from the shadowy mists. They birthed Chauntea, goddess of life. Chauntea was Firstborn. When Chauntea begged for warmth to nurture life, Selune and Shar disagreed over whether to grant their daughter's request. This first conflict spawned the God of War (a fragment of whom was later known as Tempus in Talfiric pantheon and as Targus in his Netherese aspect). Tempus/Targus was Secondborn. The former order and peaceful coexistence of Realmspace was shattered by this discord--spawning War's little brother, Chaos. Valigan is an aspect of the god of Chaos. Valigan was Thirdborn. In time this conflict and resulting chaos led to the birth of Disease (Talona), Murder (Jergal) and Death (an unnamed god, later slain by Jergal in the first act of Tyranny) among other (unnamed) fell forces. Although the creation myth does not name Chaos specifically, I believe that Chaos is a good candidate for one of those other fell gods. In fact it must be, because currently Talos holds the portfolio of Chaos and Faiths & Pantheons mentions Talos being spawned in the War of Light & Darkness between Shar & Selune at the begining of Time. Very probably Valigan is the Jhaamdathan fragment of the original god of Chaos--along with Talos (who was part of the Talfiric Pantheon), Kozah (who was part of the Netherese Pantheon) and with Bhaelros (the fragment of Chaos worshipped in the Coramshite pantheon) rounding out the bunch. Back to the story: Chauntea's two younger brothers, War & Chaos, probably established their divine realms together creating the plane of Limbo. At some point, when the human populations of Faerun became isolated from each other by geography, the "mythic tension" caused by diverging belief systems split the extant singular gods into multiple fragments of themselves that went off with each of the respective groups that worshipped them. War split into Tempus & Targus. These two aspects both still lived in Limbo--although they established separate divine realms (Battlegarde & Knight's Rest). When Chaos fragmented, Valigan remained Chaotic Neutral and his portfolio emphasized Chaos, Disorder & perhaps even Freedom. Valigan embodied freedom from the yoke of Tyranny, the destruction of law, the fight against opression, and the overthrowing of established order. Valigan was still very closely allied with his brother War (whatever his name was in the Jhaamdathan pantheon) and so continued to maintain his realm in Limbo. The fragment who later became Kozah & Talos emphasized the darker aspects of Chaos including destruction, fury, storms, catastrophe and rebellion. This more evil fragment was not well suited to Limbo and so it created or split off another realm for itself--separate from Valigan's. A realm which may at one point have been called Pandemonium, but later came to be called "Fury's Heart." Perhaps the realm(s) of Kozah/Talos were at first still attached to the plane of Limbo, but as the fragments of Valigan & Kozah/Talos became more distinct from each other, Kozah/Talos became more evil, and eventually just ripped his realm free from Limbo altogether, forming the separate plane of Fury's Heart. Perhaps Valigan as god of Chaos & Anarchy even had a hand in the creation of the Slaadi. It could be that Ygorl or Ssendam or one of the other Slaad Lords was his proxy (or maybe they all served him in some fashion.) I can imagine that Valigan, god of Anarchy, was the mortal enemy of Jergal, god of Tyranny, who bitterly resented Valigan as representing the complete antithesis of his portfolio. Where Jergal created empires, Valigan tore them down. Where Jergal inspired order, Valigan inspired dissent & disobedience. As Jergal & Valigan fought over time, Jergal corrupted Ygorl to be his agent in Limbo, working against the interests of Valigan (fighting chaos with chaos amused Jergal.) That is perhaps how Ygorl took on his visage of a scythe-wielding deathbringer. This may also be where the death slaadi had their origins. Perhaps Ygorl, as proxy or agent of Jergal, was organizing a revolt against the god of Anarchy himself, and Death Slaadi were to be the pawns in that war. There has got to be a good story in there somewhere. Anyway, that ploy never worked. So Jergal made overtures to powers outside of the Crystal Sphere of Realmspace. He was looking for an ally against Valigan. After all, Jergal was the god of Murder as well. Jergal found his assassin in the guise of Tyr, a defunct god of order and justice that was fading from worship within his native sphere. Jergal invited, tricked, or engineered in machiavellian fashion the entry of Tyr into Realmspace at the head of an army of archons in -247 DR to slay Valigan. It was perhaps the very destruction of his archnemesis that led Jergal to fall into ennui. He never realized how much the eternal competition with his enemy sustained him, inspired him, energized him. The accomplishment of his heart's ambition led Jergal to the contemplation of the cessation of struggle and the orderly winding up of the universe and his own end. It was this very malaise that prompted Jergal to eventually relinquish his portfolios of Murder, Tyranny and Death to 3 aspiring mortals (Bane, Bhaal & Myrkul). After which, Jergal was content to recede into the background and document the unfolding end of all things as scribe of the dead. Valigan's divine realm afterward began to wane in the centuries following his death. His minions the Slaadi and his proxy Ssendam (who as proxy was invested with a spark of Valigan's own divine power) were able to maintain the dwindling realm and keep it from imploding or slipping beyond the Astral as usually happens to divine realms when their patron god dies. Yet over time, the unified Plane of Limbo began to look less chaotic and more martial after the influence of Tempus/Targus/Garagos and the other gods of war. The plane came to be known more as Warrior's Rest, while the name Limbo came more and more to refer only to that swirling, chaotic region of the plane where the Slaad subsisted. Over the centuries, Valigan Thirdborn's Shattered Castle fell slowly into Ruin. In fact, as Kelemvor smashed the last remnants of Cyric's Bone castle and began to reshape it into the Crystal Spire, now homeless Cyric--in a very rare moment, feeling weak and uncertain and alone--approached his former seneschal Jergal in search of solace. Looking pitifully into Jergal's great mantis eyes, Cyric asked: "Where shall I go? What shall become of Cyric?" It was with a deep sense of Irony--and only the hint of a sarcastic grin that crossed his mandibles--that Jergal counselled Cyric: "I know of a place that would suit you..." So after being kicked out of the Fugue Plane (following his Trial in 1368 DR) Cyric, the Prince of Lies, sought refuge in the mad vortex of Limbo, on the plane of Warrior's Rest. Cyric comandeered Valigan's old ruined castle and subsequently entered into a strange association with the Slaad Lord Ygorl whose Death Slaad minions had a budding affinity with the former god of Death. Sometime between 1368 and 1372 DR, Cyric ripped the realm of Limbo free from the plane of Warrior's Rest, severing Limbo's ties with the divine realms of the warrior gods for ever after. Cyric renamed the plane The Supreme Throne in honor of his mad ambition to one day rule the cosmos from it. The Slaadi don't really seem to care too much. They still get to play leapfrog and hopscotch all day, same as they always did. But sometimes, every so often, when the howling winds of the Supreme Throne sound like the anguished wails of a myriad sorrowful amphibians... you can tell the Slaadi are pining mournfully for their lost best-buddies the Githzerai. ;)
Gray Richardson 01-09-05, 12:37 AM	I am befuddled a bit about the chain of custody of the portfolio of Strife. Jergal did not have it originally during the time of Netheril. Kozah did. Yet Jergal gave Bane his portfolios. Bane had the portfolio of Strife in the modern era. So either Jergal had the portfolio of Strife and gave it at the time he gave Bane Tyranny, or Bane picked up Strife at some point later. Perhaps stealing it from Kozah/Talos. As speculated above, Valigan Thirdborn may have been the Jhaamdathan god of Anarchy, a fragment of the original god of Chaos spawned at the begining of time and the Jhaamdathan counterpart to Kozah. Presumably Valigan had the portfolio of Strife at the time of -247 DR, at least within the Jhaamdathan pantheon. If Jergal was somehow involved in bringing Tyr to Faerun in order to kill off his enemy Valigan (as speculated in the above post) then Jergal may have benefitted from this by picking up some of Valigan's portfolio in the aftermath. This may be how Jergal acquired the portfolio of Strife which he later ceded to Bane. This is not the only explanation, but it is a possible scenario. What is puzzling to me is: how did it shake out that Kozah lost the portfolio of Strife? Surely the answer must lie somewhere in the events surrounding the blending of the Netherese and Talfiric pantheons. At some point Kozah became Talos. Somewhere between the fall of Netheril and the ascension of Bane, Kozah lost the portfolio of Strife. Now either Kozah and Talos were the same god using 2 names, or they were separate fragments of the original god of chaos that fragmented at the time that the human races diverged into the Talfiric population and the Netherese population. If so then when the Talfiric and Netherese pantheons started to blend back together, according to Lord Ao's edict you can't have two gods with the same portfolio in the same pantheon, and so either Talos and Kozah would have to merge back together or one would have to slay the other or absorb him somehow. It could be that the Talos fragment didn't have the portfolio of Strife and when he defeated/absorbed/or merged with Kozah, the result was that Talos emerged Strifeless. Perhaps as the Netherese & Talfiric peoples started to blend, and as the time became imminent for the inevitable clash between Talos & Kozah to see who would emerge preeminent as the sole bearer of those portfolios within the blended pantheon, It might be that Jergal aided Talos to defeat Kozah, demanding the portfolio of Strife as his price for helping to defeat Kozah. Alternatively, Jergal could have murdered Kozah in a bid to take Kozah's portfolio. Except that Talos was waiting in the wings to step in to fill Kozah's shoes, and Jergal only ended up with Strife while Talos took over the rest of Kozah's former portfolio.
Gray Richardson 01-09-05, 02:16 AM	I just realized that Shar had the portfolios of Murder & Hate during the time of Netheril. But Bane eventually wound up with Hate, and Bhaal ended up with the portfolio of Murder. How did this come to be? I believe that Jergal is still the lynchpin somehow. It is said that Jergal courted Shar for a time. It might be that Jergal somehow received Murder & Hate from her and later passed these on to Bane & Bhaal. Shar may have given them voluntarily, perhaps in exchange for a service. Perhaps for doing something that was uniquely in his purview to do. Or he might have taken them from her involuntarily. An alternative is that Bane & Bhaal somehow took Murder & Hate from Shar at a later date. Lastly, it is likely that Jergal was a multi-pantheonic god. Unlike Tempus & Targus who were separate war gods for 2 different pantheons, it could be that Jergal was never fragmented and served as god of death for not only the Netherese pantheon but maybe the Talfiric, or Jhaamdathan, or Coramshite pantheon(s) as well. It would make sense for there to be only one god of death if there was only one Fugue Plane and only one arbiter of death. It would also make sense that Jergal was known within the Jhaamdathan pantheon if he was to have the above speculated rivalry with Valigan Thirdborn, Jhaamdathan god of Anarchy. I don't know if this is the case, but it would make sense. So if Jergal was a multi-pantheonic deity, he could have picked up Murder & Hate from some other god from one of the other pantheons. This would have brought him into conflict with Shar in the Netherese pantheon because Ao mandates that no two gods in the same pantheon can share a portfolio. It might have taken some time for everything to resolve but if it did happen that way then maybe Jergal eventually prevailed over Shar and got to keep Murder & Hate, which he later gave to Bane & Bhaal. It is interesting to note that Shar did not have Murder at the begining of time as Murder was one of the separate gods that were spawned in the War of Light & Darkness. I have speculated that Murder was Jergal who later killed his brother Death and unified their portfolios in the first act of Tyranny. But whoever had Murder it wasn't Shar. So where did Shar come by Murder? She probably took it from another god. Maybe a proto-Netherese god, or a god from another pantheon. Here is another speculation: perhaps if Jergal was courting Shar for a time during the period of Netheril, then it could be that Jergal himself gave her the portfolio of Murder as a present in an attempt to woo her. Perhaps when things went sour with her then Jergal took the portfolio back. Maybe even took Hate from her to boot. Of course losing Murder & Hate from her portfolio was probably no surprise to Shar as she was already intimately familiar with the concept of loss.
Gray Richardson 01-09-05, 03:24 PM	Okay, now this is highly speculative. But I am going to try and make the case that the plane of Dweomerheart was not created near the begining of time, but rather was split off from a unified plane of Limbo sometime around -339 the Year of Sundered Webs. With the FR cosmology retcon, it is by no means certain what the true origins of Dweomerheart are, but I am going to lay out my reasoning. I have speculated above that after the War of Light & Darkness between Selune & Shar that the twin gods of War & Chaos (Tempus/Targus & Kozah/Talos--and possibly Valigan) early on established their realms together on a branch of the Great Tree that was a unified plane--possibly called Limbo. Now when Mystryl was born and negotiated a truce in the War of Light & Darkness I believe that is the most likely time for the plane of Cynosure to have been created. Following the truce, Mystryl needed to establish her own divine realm which she named Dweomertor. The realm of Dweomertor was presumably a rocky hill without any city yet because there were no people at this point. I imagine the plane was just a great hill, perhaps surmounted by a ring of standing stones or other such primitive, mythic architecture. In the 2E Netheril box set, Dweomertor was found in Limbo. Yet in 2E Mystra had her plane of Dweomerheart in Elisyium on the layer of Eronia. So even in 2E there is evidence that Mystra relocated her divine realm from one plane to another. I think it likely that rather than set up her own plane, Mystryl established her divine realm of Dweomertor with her brothers War & Chaos on the unified plane of Limbo. This would explain why Leira (goddess of Illusion) also had her realm of the Courts of Illusion in Limbo, it was attached to Mystryl's realm. Leira is likely a daughter or fragment of Mystryl. Although it is also possible that Leira was once a mortal illusionist that Mystryl rasied to godhood. Actually, the facts surrounding Leira are so murky that you probably can't draw any conclusions about her. Anyway, with the rise of Netheril and the proliferation of magic, Mystryl was getting a huge influx of petitioners into her realm. Dweomertor blossomed from a small rocky tor into a plateau crested by a magnificent, magical metropolis. With the death of Mystryl in -339, Mystra, the new goddess of magic, took over. At some point Mystra must have decided to rip her divine realm free of the unified plane of Limbo and set it up as its own plane which she rechristened Dweomerheart. Whether this happened exactly in -339 or sometime later (say perhaps around the time of the Dawn Cataclysm) is anyone's guess.
Gray Richardson 01-11-05, 01:38 AM	According to the creation myth on p.141 of Faiths & Avatars, In the begining Selune & Shar created all the heavenly bodies of Realmspace and infused them with life to create the Earthmother, Chauntea. Chauntea originally encompassed all the life in Realmspace, but later contracted to just be the god of life for Faerun. The plane of the House of Nature probably came into existence around this time. Presumably, as she contracted she left fragments of herself throughout Realsmpace, so that there would have been a god of Life of H'Catha, and a god of Life on Glyth, and so on for all the heavenly bodies... Which leads to the intriguing possibility that each of the planets of Realmspace attaches to a House of Nature--but whether they all link to the same House of Nature or not, I do not know. And if they do not link to the same House of Nature, then that might mean that each of the planets in Realmspace is linked to their own version of the plane of the House of Nature, possibly with alien plants and wildlife all under different colored skies. Even on Toril itself, the Goddess of Life fragmented further into different aspects such as the Earthmother of the Moonshaes, Jannath of the Netherese pantheon, and Chauntea (of whatever pantheon the name Chauntea comes from.) But anyway, back at the begining of time, before the Sun, there was life throughout Realmspace. This life would be the firstborn of Chauntea. Actually, the myth is kind of vague, It's hard to say whether this first life was the creation of Chauntea, or was created by Selune & Shar. But what kind of life would the firstborn be? Life that could exist in the cold and the dark, or by starlight and moonlight but without warmth. We probably should not worry too much about scientific priniciples like ambient temperatures and lumens and such. After all, this was a mythical time in a magical universe. Plants would be out, but maybe fungi could exist. Slimes and oozes probably. Bacteria and single celled organisms, and all things we might consider "primordial." Perhaps life as complex as jelly fish, crustaceans, possibly even fish and sharks and things of the sea. Perhaps the sharks and Sekolah roamed the early sunless seas, which means the plane of the Fated Depths could possibly date as far back as before the coming of the Sun. Perhaps Toril was covered in the kind of life that had to flee into the cool, dark depths of the Underdark with the creation of the sun. Perhaps to this day these creatures long for the era when they once roamed free on the surface under a sky of endless night. Maybe this is when you could date the creation of the plane of Deep Caverns. Ibrandul too might date back to this era. By the way, according to legend, whatever was the first creature to dream and have a nightmare was the impetus for spawning Dendar the Night Serpent who arose during this time. Perhaps the firstborn of Chauntea were not mortal creatures at all, perhaps it was too cold yet, without a sun, for life as it is today. Perhaps the firstborn of Chauntea were the outsiders: demons and devils and celestials and such, maybe even genies and elementals and all the creatures that now live among the planes. If the firstborn are considered more the children of Selune & Shar, rather than born of Chauntea, then perhaps Selune created the good outsiders, and Shar is the mother of the fiendish outsiders. If so then perhaps the Abyss and Baator, and maybe Mount Celestia date from this era. But whatever primordial life was like in Realmspace, Chauntea was not satisfied with her firstborn progeny. She longed to create the life that would only thrive beneath the light and warmth of a Sun. At this point Chauntea begged for warmth and was given the Sun to nurture life. And with the sun, Chauntea spawned her younger children, the secondborn. The plants and animals and beings of the Sun that flourish in the light and the heat of it. With the coming of the Sun, Chauntea's firstborn had to flee, either into the depths of the sea, or beneath the ground, or off among the planes, or wherever it is they had to go to escape the burning, dessicating orb that now lit the sky. With the coming of the Sun, Toril (and the other planets) teamed with new life. On the plane of the House of the Sun the animal lords arose, the Guardinals arose, and perhaps some of these animal lords evolved into gods. Perhaps Sekolah is an ascended animal lord of sharks. Ubtao might be an ascended animal lord of dinosaurs. Some might think that Chauntea spawned Malar lord of beasts at this point, and she might have. But others might think that Shar spawned Malar, to hunt and plague the newborn creatures that basked in the sun, to force them to flee into the dark places and the shadows to hide in fear from Malar--which in a way was a primitive form of veneration for Shar. It might be at this juncture that Chauntea gave birth to the World Serpent, a child she hatched from an enormous egg. I don't know in what order she spawned all the life of Toril. Perhaps it was in one clutch of eggs from which hatched all the species together, or perhaps she started small by creating plants for her garden; and then insects to pollinate the plants and chew away the fallen leaves and twigs; working her way up through the lower orders of life, fish, amphibians, reptiles, birds, rodents, mamals and finally humanoids over the course of eons. The solution to the order in which life arose will depend greatly on whether life emerged spontaneously all at once around 40,000 or more years ago by divine intervention, or alternatively evolved over millions of years as it did on planet earth. It is probably misleading to read too much into the creation myth from Faiths & Avatars, but it does have all sorts of intriguing implications for the Order of Creation of the Planes.
Gray Richardson 01-12-05, 01:28 PM	In trying to reconcile the fact that Murder and Death were originally two separate beings according to the creation myth, with the observation that they were united into one entity by the time that Jergal presided over those portfolios during the time of Netheril, I came to ponder Eric Boyd's idea about a triple-aspected sun god and how that fits in to the story of the War of Light and Darkness. Here are my thoughts on how the events might have unfolded: Shar & Selune disagree about whether to provide warmth for Chauntea. Shar sees this (and not without merit) as a diminishment of her--that this will augment Selune at the cost of Shar, upsetting their perfect balance. War & Chaos erupt. Shar lashes out by afflicting the first life with pain and illness. Disease is brought into being (Talona?) who creates the Barrrens of Doom & Despair as her planar bailiwick. Aghast and intimidated, Selune and Chauntea perhaps relent for a time. There is a temporary lull in the hostilities. But eventually Selune and Chauntea persist in their desire to create a source of warmth. Feeling that her point is not getting across, Shar escalates the conflict by trying to extinguish some of the first life, to punish Chauntea and make evident what measures Shar is willing to take in order to preserve the balance. Murder is spawned. Whether Murder sprang up in the wake of Shar’s acts or whether Shar created Murder to execute her will is unclear. Murder is perhaps even an avatar or fragment of Shar. Death had not existed in the Realms up to this point. The first creatures were immortal, or at least had had no end as of yet. Murder was a mighty blow against Chauntea. In order to console Chauntea for her loss, Selune creates a brother (or sister) for Chauntea to collect the souls of the dead and shepherd them into Chauntea’s loving embrace on the plane of the House of Nature where they can persist as petitioners. Perhaps Shar feels that some of the dead petitioners should be guided to her realm, that she is being cheated of her rightful share. This enrages Shar still further. Shar has Murder kill Death. Or maybe Murder acts on its own initiative to consolidate power and kills Death in order to seize his portfolio in the first act of Tyranny. Perhaps Murder/Death creates the Fugue Plane at this point with the intent of keeping all the dead, proclaiming them his rightful subjects and compounding his Tyranny. In frustration, Selune unilaterally reaches beyond the Astral to the plane of fire and pulls forth enough fiery essence to ignite the sun. She rechannels the essence of the deceased shepherd of the dead into a new entity, a guardian of the sun. The lord of endings is reborn as the lord of beginnings, the incarnaton of the Sun in its Dawn aspect--thereby creating precedent for the god of Dusk to be reincarnated as the god of Dawn, and initializing the first link in the chain that will result in a tripartite god of the Sun in its Dawn, Noon and Dusk aspects. The war further escalates. Shar tries to extinguish the sun. Maybe she even succeeds and Selune has to re-ignite the Sun. (only speculation) For all we know Selune had to rekindle the sun many times. As things get worse, Selune rips the essence of magic from her body and hurls it at Shar which binds with the essence of magic in Shar and rips it likewise from her, resulting in Mystryl. Formed from a part of each goddess, Mystryl has the advantage of seeing both sides and endeavors to secure a truce between the gods. The plane of Cynosure is created as neutral ground and a hall of negotiation is erected for all parties to meet, perhaps enlisting Ao to officiate, or at least to record and bind the agreement. Although, if Oghma had arrived on the scene by now, then he could have perhaps served as the “court stenographer” setting the terms of the agreement down in language and binding the parties, earning his title as "the binder." The Truce that they work out is that the Sun will set and rise again each day, revolving in an eternal cycle of equal parts Night & Day. The notion of Time, as we know it, begins at this point, for there is now a means of measuring Time by the progression of days. Mystryl, as mediator of the truce and a neutral third party, pledges to watch over Time in order to ensure that day and night shall be equal. However, the Sun god assumes that, as the agent by which time is measured, he should have the portfolio of Time. The treaty is vague or perhaps even intentionally grammatically misleading on this point so as to leave it an open question as to whether the god of the Sun or Mystryl shall have providence over Time. The Sun claims nominal possession of the portfolio of Time but Mystryl takes actual charge of guarding Time and the Sun never does ever interfere with Mystryl on this matter. Among the many other points of contention resolved by this treaty is that Shar wins the right to have her faithful petitioners come to her upon their death. Feeling slighted, Talona also demands equal right to have her petitioners come to her Barrens of Doom & Despair when they die. What is agreed and codified into the treaty, is that each god is awarded the right to have their faithful come to them upon death. The Tyrant of Murder & Death is forced to relinquish the faithful petitioners of each deity. The Tyrant of Murder & Death balks at this arrangement but concedes on the grounds that he will not be required to deliver the souls of the dead, rather, the gods will come to him to collect their petitioners. Furthermore, he demands and is granted the office of sole arbiter of disputes over who has faith for whom. In the wake of the treaty, his interpretation is that he not only gets to keep his own petitioners but also the faithless and the false. And he jealously guards those souls. He erects a wall around his citadel on the Fugue Plane to keep out any who would pilfer his petitioners, and to keep the subjects of his tyranny enclosed within. The terms of this treaty are inscribed into the Tablets of Fate and Lord Ao keeps them safe through the eons until they are stolen just prior to the Time of Troubles. In order to comport with Eric Boyd's sun theory, it is worthy to note that the original Dawn aspect of the Sun (he was probably not called Lathander at this point) must have died at some time between the creation myth and the time of Netheril in order to manifest in his Noon aspect of Amaunator. We know it must have happened at least once, although the Sun could have cycled through many such revolutions in the thousands, perhaps millions of years since the creation myth and the time of Netheril.
Gray Richardson 01-27-05, 01:58 PM	Some new info regarding the status of Limbo with respect to the Realms Esteemed scribe Kuje31 asked Ed Greenwood in another forum: Hi Ed, I have a question about Serpent Kingdoms. On page 55 in the creator races colored box of text the plane of Limbo is mentioned. However the new planes, that are in the FRCS and the Player's Guide to Faerun, this plane doesn't exist. So this has caused confusion with a few of us on the boards, the mailing list, and other places. Now with that in mind does Limbo exist as a seperate plane in FR's Tree now or it is a plane that has falling into decay and gone away like a few of the other planes from the dead deities? Or did it split apart and form into the Supreme Throne with the rise of Cyric? The confusion mostly lies because of the slaadi. The Player's Guide says they live in the Supreme Throne while Serpent Kingdoms says they fled to Limbo.Ed Greenwood replied: kuje, Toril exists within its own physical universe (as covered in Realmspace), its own cosmology (presented in the Players Guide to Faerūn), and has also had thousands of links (some of them permanent, and known as “gates”) with several parallel Prime Material Planes (hence the very name “Forgotten Realms,” which is Toril seen from the viewpoint of a real-world Earth observer). Real-world Earth (where I live, and Elminster finds me to pass on his tales of this wondrous world we all buy divers products about) is but one of these dozens of Prime Material Planes that Toril is, or has been (and in some cases, will be again, as gates re-open in predetermined cycles or conditions, or are re-opened by the deliberate acts of various beings) directly linked to. (Lest anyone think I’m just concocting this now as a retcon, consider the date on which issue 37 of The Dragon, as it was then, was published.) The elf realm of Faerie is one such Prime Material Plane, though it’s very different from, say, our real-world Earth (and yes, I’ll very soon answer Melfius as to how and where Faerie and Toril connect). Most of these Prime Material Planes (from which various of the “creator races” hail) are similar to Toril in that they are vaguely-medieval-level carbon-based and copious-water environments very like Toril, and one can breathe the air and drink the water if one is a resident of one plane, and steps (via gate/portal or spell) from one to the other. Most of them exist both within their own crystal spheres (Spelljammer again, although in the majority of cases the inhabitants of these alternate Prime Material Planes are entirely unaware of the existence of crystal spheres, spelljammers, phlogiston, et al) and in the cosmology described in the ‘core’ D&D rules, where Limbo very much exists. So as SERPENT KINGDOMS states, some learned thinkers of Toril believe the batrachi fled to Limbo, where they became known as slaadi. (I know they exist in Limbo, because circa issue 90 or so of DRAGON, a Canadian freelance designer by the name of Stephen Inniss [creator of the lillend “monster”] and I stopped work on a by-then-300-odd-pages manuscript detailing Limbo, when TSR’s Creative Director told us they wouldn’t be publishing any more planar products. As we all know, TSR later changed its mind.) Not only are the cosmologies connected via the various gates linking the Prime Material Planes, they’re also linked (Elminster tells me, though word of this may well not have reached those wizards who dwell on a certain coast) through their World Trees and River of Blood/River Styx (which are actually the same thing, exhibiting different properties in different places and cosmologies. I note both “places” and cosmologies because the Styx differs from place to place just within the Outer Planes of the “main D&D” or “Greyhawk” cosmology, bearing alternative names such as the River Lethe.) Obviously, the slaadi colonized the Supreme Throne from Limbo (where, after all, the githzerai are an everpresent force that opposes them). Cyric is only very recently ascended to godhood (from a cosmic viewpoint), so it’s obvious that the Supreme Throne described in the PLAYER’S GUIDE TO FAERUN is greatly changed from the features a visitor would have found on that plane not very long ago - - when the slaadi probably dominated, hunting other creatures at will. However, let me state again (for the benefit of all Seekers After Truths with whom you’ll undoubtedly be sharing this) that as with matters divine, matters cosmological are rife with speculation and things most mortals can never know or be sure about. What is “fact” when even a careful observer can’t necessarily perceive things as they are, or know he or she is interpreting what they see correctly? (I recall a humorous animated film, popular in schools in my youth, wherein aliens believe that cars are the rulers of Earth, and humans are merely parasites who occasionally issue forth from them or enter them.) So there you have it: clear as mud in utter darkness when one is submerged in it and blindfolded. :}
Meta_FR_DM 01-27-05, 04:34 PM	Yes! From on high we see that Faerūn does indeed exist in its own Cosmology. :dancin: :w00t: :clap: And we see it's enveloped in phlogiston, to. Blech! :yuck: And we see that numerous gates and intra-planar structures exist, the later which Faerūn's Cosmology features as well, and so Faerūn isn't anywhere as disconnected as some have claimed. :cheer: Ah...things are good.
Gray Richardson 01-27-05, 08:08 PM	I think that Ed's response is encouraging for planar adventurers in that it affirms that the Great Tree, while separate from, is still connected to the Great Wheel of Greyhawk and even to the cosmos of Earth and other worlds by myriad links and gates which allow for access and transit between all the cosmoi. A plane-minded DM need not limit his campaign to just the planes of the FR cosmology but can take his players on a journey across the cosmologies to visit the Great Wheel or Krynn's cosmos or even the orbiting planes of Eberron. I find especially intriguing what Ed said about the River of Blood being linked to the Styxes of other cosmoi, and also about the World Trees of varying cosmoi being all linked together. That hints at so many mysteries and conjures up so many ideas for campaigns. Who planted the World Trees? Was it the Fey gods? The ancient treant deities? Was it some sort of "Johnny Appleseed" overgod that travels to new cosmologies and plants a World Tree sapling? Does the World Tree plant itself by sending seeds or maybe a root or branch across the plane of Shadow? And the River Styx/River of Blood: what causes this feature to seep its way across cosmologies? Is this feature spawned in every new cosmos from the blood spilled upon the death of the first god? Is the Styx/River of Blood actually just the same one river that wends its way through all the cosmoi, bleeding across the void to instill itself into the planar infrastructrures of unstained crystal spheres? One could write all sorts of adventures that deal with the answers to these mysteries! :)
Gray Richardson 02-04-05, 02:17 AM	Lost Empires provides a very important key date for establishing a planar timeline. It dates the Seldarine civil war at -30,000 DR. About the same time as the end of the Aeree creator race, the begining of the rule of the dragons, and the casting down of the Solar Malkizid. I had previously speculated that the elven gods might have interloped around the time of the first flowering around -24,000 DR, and that Lolth might have fallen around the time of the Crown Wars, circa -12,000 DR to -10,000 DR. But as we see these events have to have occured much earlier. From this key date we can set a time period for some other events. According to Elaine Cunningham, The blinding of Gruumsh's eye by Corellon, the slaying of Herne by Malar, and the casting down of Auril out of Arvandor all occured contemporaneously with the war of the Seldarine. All these events must have happened around -30,000. The interloping of the Seldarine into the cosmology must also have occurred prior to -30,000 DR. Best guess is that the elven gods interloped over from the plane of Faerie and that the story of their arrival is probably intimately entwined with the story of the Faerie creator race. The Faerie creator race in Serpent Kingdoms held sway from about -34,000 onward, so arrival of the Seldarine probably can be narrowed to sometime between -34,000 and -30,000 DR. And if we take Elaine Cunningham's words literally that Olympus was on the same plane as Arvandor at the time (assuming this was not retconned by the 3E cosmology revisions) then we might also infer that the goddess Tyche (of the Netherese pantheon) must have interloped into Realmspace prior to -30,000 DR as well and established her realm of Olympus (which she named after the realm she came from in her home universe) on the plane of Arvandor nearby the divine realms of the Seldarine. Since the plane of Arvandor is riddled with giantish ruins (according to On Hallowed Ground, anyway), assuming this is still true in 3E, then that means that the Seldarine probably established their realm on former giant territory after they interloped. Perhaps this was a parcel of giant land conquered by the Seldarine, maybe ripped off of the plane of Jotunheim. Or maybe the giants and elves were friends at first and the giant gods gifted them the plane. Regardless, the giant gods would have to predate the arrival of the Seldarine. A lot of things start to fall into place with the establishment of this date. :)
Gray Richardson 02-04-05, 02:26 AM	It is hard to reconcile the timeline in Giantcraft with the dates in the chronology in Serpent Kingdoms. But I think it can be done and I aim to try. :) Serpent Kingdoms lists the Reign of Giants as occuring between -28,000 and -25,000 DR. But if Arvandor is filled with giant ruins, and it has been around since at least before -30,000 DR, then that means the giants had to preceed Arvandor so they must have been around at least before -30,000 DR. This works if we assume that the -28,000 DR date in Serpent Kingdoms is not the begining of the giant race in Faerun, but rather just the start of their dominant period. According to Giantcraft, the chronology (without dates) goes like this: 1) Annam interlopes into Realmspace from outside Toril's crystal sphere. Annam brings the giant gods, his first children (from another marriage) who interlope over with him. 2) Annam marries a Torilian demigoddess named Othea, the personification of a particular mountain in Faerun. Their children are the mortal progenitors of the various branches of the Giant family tree. 3) When the last of his Torilian children had reached manhood, Annam founded the kingdom of Ostoria, which stretched from the Cold Lands to the Vilhon reach. 4) About the time that Annam founded Ostoria, the first dragon eggs are said to have rained from the sky like meteors. The giants didn't pay any attention to the tiny hatchlings at first until a few centuries later when the dragons matured and became a threat. 5) A war errupted between the dragons and the Giants that lasted over a thousand years. 6) the war ended in a truce with the giants having been beaten back to the North. Working backwards, lets assume the truce between the Dragons & the Giants was what allowed the Giants to prosper as a civilization. That would put the truce with the dragons sometime around or before -28,000 DR. The conflict with the dragons lasted over a thousand years, so that puts the beginning of the conflict and the rise of the dragons sometime between -30,000 and -29,000. That jives nicely with Serpent Kingdoms putting the rule of dragons beginning -30,000 DR. I don't know if the -30,000 date represents the time that the dragons fell from the sky (or otherwise emerged on Faerun) or whether this just marks their rise to dominance. I assume this is when the dragons took over, eating all the Aeree they could find. They had to be mature at this time, so presumably they hatched a few hundred years earlier. Dragons can start breeding at 50 years and become mature adults at around 200-400 years old. So giving them a few years to breed and increase their numbers and grow to at least mature adult size before taking over, puts the fall of the dragon eggs from the sky at around -30,200 at the latest, probably more like -30,400 to -30,500 reasonably, maybe even as early as -31000. Okay that places the founding of Ostoria by Annam approximately -31,000 to -30,400 DR. I guess it could have even been earlier. But this is long before the -28,000 date in Serpent Kingdoms. Why did no one notice a large giant kingdom? Well, if this was during the time of the Aeree creator race, the avians could have been mostly concerned with the skies and their arcane pursuits. They probably concentrated in cities, and probably didn't care too much what was happening on the surface of Faerun in the wilderness areas. And then again, Annam only had a handful of children at this point when he founded Ostoria. In typical giant fashion he claimed thousands of miles of territory, but there were only a few giants to inhabit this kingdom. The Aeree probably didn't even know that the giants were there, much less feel like they were being encroached territorially. I don't know how long it might have taken for Annam and Othea to birth and raise all their children to manhood, if they were closely spaced it could have been as little as 20 years, or it could have taken hundreds of years. And then who knows for how long Annam was even around in Faerun before he married Othea. But it seems reasonable that Annam must have interloped at least as early as -31,000 and possibly centuries or even millenia before that. This would have given Annam plenty of time to establish his divine realm of Jotunheim within the FR cosmology, and for the Seldarine to come along later (but before -30,000 DR) and establish Arvandor over the ruins of a portion of Annam's planar real estate.
ripvanwormer 02-06-05, 09:03 PM	It was called Limbo, or Pandemonium, or Randarath. Most called it simply the Plane of the Lost Gods. It was largely a lightless void filled with wild chaos and howling winds. Its primary inhabitants were creatures of anarchy with names like slaad, galchutt, and howler. Some claim it was the first plane, existing even before Selune and Shar created the Gates of the Moon and the Plane of Shadow in the days before Toril was made. From the primordial chaos and awful darkness of the Plane of the Lost Gods the twin goddesses stole the material to make their first creations. Some say the overgod called Ao is just the most comprehensible part of this plane, the tiny portion that men and gods can begin to understand. At one time, many gods lived there. It is thought that Ghaunadaur first arose from the chaos of that plane, as did Moander and the entity remembered only as the Dark God. As new realms were created by the younger gods, however, the importance of Randareth began to dwindle. Those gods who did not move on to younger planes began to dwindle as well, recessing into forgotten lore. The plane itself became forgotten and seldom visited, except by cultists of chaos and doom and the purely insane. The time came when three men of power descended into the Plane of Lost Gods. One was a mighty king, feared across Faerun for his cruelty and brilliance. One was his chief assassin, knowledgeable in the way of killing as no mortal should be. The last was a lich, a potent sorcerer who had learned uncanny arts on the far side of death. Their goal was to do no less than to slay a god and steal its power. Cleverness was needed, but the three had it to spare. First they visited the realms of Moander and Ghaunadaur as supplicants, offering those alien beings their aid in slaying a rival. When the corpse of the Dark God was subsequently cast into the Astral, the Three too gained some of its strength. With the power thus gained, the three mortals went to the Lake of Boiling Mud, and together they slew Borem, a god exiled from Randarath only a handful of millennia before. Piercing his heart with a godslaying blade, Borem's divinity was stolen and, with the Overgod's blessing, transferred to the Three. The Three came back to the Plane of Lost Gods, and it is said that all the Lost Gods bowed down before them in recognition. Maram, Haask, Tyranthraxus, and Camnod all accepted the place of the Three among them. The new gods were not yet satisfied, however, with their new status as petty godlings. To the realm of Death itself they came, before the throne of ancient Jergal. Before any of them even spoke, Jergal looked into each of their souls. It is time, came the thought within their heads. And Jergal bowed. The Three thought no more of the Plane of Lost Gods, and it remained obscure, forgotten as ever by all except by those whose madness was such that it became a kind of comprehension, tapping into ancient realities no longer longer accessible to those called sane. Not until a greater god went mad did the plane become once again prominent in the Grand Scheme. When Cyric, heir to the Three, made Madness itself into his throne and forged a realm amidst the many-formed caves between the Harmonica and Spawning Stone and other ruins of long-lost deities, the Plane of Lost Gods once again came into alignment with the other Outer Planes. And with Cyric's strange ascension, older things once more began to intrude into the planes we know. Things the eldest of divine sages hoped were long extinct now walk the civilized lands again.
Gray Richardson 02-06-05, 11:14 PM	Hi Rip! Always a privilege to read your unique and literary insight into the planes. :) So you think Limbo might be the same plane as Rarandreth and/or the home of the Lost Gods? It certainly could be. I had heard rumors that Tyranthraxus was some kind of fiend lord (an altraloth perhaps?) Although, like Gargauth, if he wasn't already a god to begin with, then it's possible he eventually achieved god status. He could definitely have called Limbo/Rarandreth home. And, although no one knows much of Borem and even less of Maram, Haask & Camnod, I imagine they may someday turn out to be related somehow to the Jhaamdathan pantheon. They had to live somewhere, and Limbo seems as likely a location as any. Maybe after Lost Empires is released we will get some more lore about these "Lost Gods." :)
The WarOverlord 02-07-05, 11:55 AM	The Forgotten Realms Great Tree is an organic thing of beauty. It grows new planes, some parts wither, new planes fork and branch off from existing ones. It occurred to me that like a tree, FR's cosmology had to start small and grow big to the sprawling, dynamic multiverse it is today. It had to have a history, right? And thinking about it I realized that Selune's Gates of the Moon had to be the very first Outer Plane. Using the history presented in the FRCS, here is my line of reasoning: The Creation of the Universe In the beginning Ao created the universe. This includes Toril's Prime Material Plane (which I shall refer to interchangeably as "Realmspace") and presumably the Astral, and maybe the Ethereal. It is unclear whether Ao actually created Shadow or not. I think of Shadow as pre-existing Realmspace. I see it as the soil in which Ao planted the Realms' Great Tree. But maybe not. Three possibilities exist: 1) Shadow probably pre-existed the cosmos, because it links all cosmologies together. It was apparently the void in which Ao created the cosmos. 2) However a second possibility is that Ao could have created Toril's Shadow Plane along with the Astral (and possibly the Ethereal) and then Toril's Shadow Plane hooked itself up to the other Shadow Planes of alternate prime material universes at a later date. 3) The third possibility is that Shar created the Shadow plane after she coalesced out of nothingness. In the beginning Realmspace was empty, filled with timeless nothingness, a shadowy mist out of which coalesced Selune & Shar. Shar claimed Shadow for her realm and Selune then created the Gates of the Moon within the Astral by which links it to Realmspace. The Gates of the Moon is probably therefore the very first outer plane in the FR cosmology. Shar & Selune then created Toril and all the heavenly bodies (including Glyth, homeworld of the Illithids, and H'Catha homeworld of the beholders.) Chauntea/Jannath was the divine personification of Toril. Chauntea/Jannath created the plane of the House of Nature and set aside her garden therein as her personal realm. Next in the creation myth is an intriguing phrase: Selune reached beyond the universe to a Plane of Fire in order to create the sun. This could mean a lot of different things depending on how you interpret it. It could just mean that she reached outside the Prime Material Plane--which implies that Ao may have created the inner planes (Fire, Water, Earth, Air, Positive & Negative) at the same time he created the Prime Material plane. But if you take it to mean that Selune reached outside the cosmology itself then you could deduce that the inner planes might have pre-existed the cosmos. Yet a third possibility is that Selune created the inner planes at this time by drawing substance from beyond. Is it possible that of all the planes the Inner Planes exist outside of the Great Tree and may share themselves with other cosmologies? These planes are definitely shared between Faerun, Zakhara, Kara-Tur and Maztica. But with alternate prime material worlds? Hmmm. I don't know. Next Selune created the sun. Its personification, Amaunatar, established his divine realm of the Keep of the Eternal Sun, presumably attached to the House of Nature next to Chauntea's garden, but possibly a plane in its own right. The War of Light & Darkness Shar fought Selune resulting in the creation of the following gods: War (Targus = Warrior's Rest/Battle Garde), Disease (Who had disease in the beginning? Talona? Moander? Maybe an unnamed god? = This god could have created the Barrens of Doom & Despair or Offalmound maybe?), Murder (have no idea who this was, maybe Kozah? Jergal later came by this portfolio and then still later handed it over to Bhaal, but it is unclear who had it in the beginning), Death (Jergal who created the Fugue Plane), and other fell forces not listed but possibly including Destruction/Kozah = Fury's Heart, and maybe Strife (later to be taken over by Jergal but perhaps initially a single god in his own right) = the Barrens of Doom & Despair, or maybe Strife created Limbo). Mystryl was formed from the essence of magic torn from Selune & Shar, she established Dweomertor as her realm (originally just a small rocky hill, later to grow into the city/plateau of Dweomerheart). Mystryl forged a truce between the gods and presumably Cynosure was created at this time as neutral ground to negotiate this peace. Selune had sons and daughters. An intriguing line. Who could these have been and what planes hath they wrought? Perhaps Sune is her daughter and beauty sprung into being at this time. Maybe joy, pleasure, luck & trade also arose with her. Brightwater probably came into being as these concepts became personified and established their divine realms together. Life arises on Toril As life evolved on Toril there came the racial deities: Sarrukh, Batrachi, Aeree, Halflings, Gnomes, Humans, Giants & Dragons arose native to Toril in roughly that order. Other races of lesser prominence also arose. My best rough guess is that the Great Tree saw planes created/added in the following chronological order: Pre-History Primordial Sea Creatures = Fated Depths Deities of nature and Landbased critters took up residence in House of Nature Who knows how many gods & planes arose & were lost before the coming of the Creator Races. Ubtao seems to be a holdout from the dinosaur era. Days of Thunder Sarrukh worshipped the World Serpent = Deep Caverns (Smargard?), Merrshaulk fragmented off and eventually took up residence in the Abyss. Batrachi = Unknown, maybe Deep Caverns but maybe Limbo/or the Supreme Throne (prior to being claimed by Cyric) Aeree = The Aeree predate the arrival of the elves so they could not have worshipped Aerdrie Faenya yet, and Arvandor did not exist at this time. Perhaps they worshipped Akadi in the realm of Air, or a pantheon of Aeree gods perhaps such as Syranita. Maybe the Aeree Pantheon lived in a plane that is now lost. Who knows? Sylvan Folk = Faerie, a plane that has faded away, maintaining only tenebrous links to Faerun. There is speculation that the Eladrin migrated to Brightwater and the Gates of the Moon from Faerie. The following four humanoid races are native to Toril, and I make the assumption they evolved in order of their relative sizes. Totally arbitrary on my party: Halflings = Golden Fields Gnomes = Green Hills Humans = Various/Interloper Gods Giants = Jotunheim (I assume Giants predate the Dragons even though Ostoria rose to greatness after the time of the Dragons, because Giantcraft states that the Giants were young when the Dragons fell in eggs from the sky.) Dragons = Dragon Eyrie The First Flowering Dwarves (the first alien interlopers) = Dwarfhome Goblinoids (interloped after discovering portals, maybe ones left by the Dwarves?) = Clangor Treants = ? (Not sure if they imported their gods or just adopted the nature gods that were already here. Was there a plane of plant gods at one time? Or were some of the Treants themselves gods? Grandfather Tree might could possibly have started as a treant deity. Maybe the Treant gods just took root on the Prime Material in lieu of creating a plant home plane. Not even sure if they worshipped gods when they first got here.) Elves interloped bringing the Seldarine and Arvandor Dark Elves = The anti-Seldarine first fell into the Abyss, later creating the Demonwebs Illithids colonized from Glyth & brought Ilsensine who established its realm in Deep Caverns with the other underdark gods. Duergar were enslaved & then rebelled, Laduguer ascends, & creates Hammergrim, possibly ripping her realm free of the Deep Caverns. Beholders colonized from H'Catha and their gods also invaded Deep Caverns. Humans from other worlds migrate to Zakhara, Kara-Tur, & Maztica & bring their own gods who establish their own planes, fracturing the Astral (aparently with Ao's consent.) Mulhorandi = Heliopolis Unther = Zigguraxus Orcs = Nishrek--I speculate that Gruumsh and his crew migrated at the time of the Orcgate wars, but I could be very wrong. They are so tied to the Seldarine that I assume that they have to be interlopers, but for all I know they were native to the Faerunian orcs who evolved on Toril. Sometime after ascending around the Time of Troubles, Cyric creates the Supreme Throne (or splits it off from somewhere or just lays claim to an existing plane, maybe renames Limbo?). He could not have seized it from Bhaal or Myrkul as Myrkul had the Fugue Plane and Bhaal I believe had his Throne of Blood on the Barrens with Bane, but I could be wrong here too. I find this one a puzzle. I find these following planes to be problematic to place and have no idea when they sprang up: House of the Triad: originally just Mt. Celestia, later Helm, Ilmater & Tyr added their own mountain realms to this plane. House of Knowledge: probably sprang up whenever Oghma interloped. The Abyss, Baator & Blood Rift. I like to think that fragments of the World Serpent may have created these planes. It is possible that Merrshaulk is the progenitor of the Demons and the Abyss. It has been rumored that Asmodeus is a fragment of the World Serpent as well. And if that is true then M'daess or Jazirian (or both) could have created Mt. Celestia which later evolved into the House of the Triad. 2E sources suggest Jazirian may have created the Archons and that another WS fragment might have spawned the Baatezu. The Supreme Throne (created maybe around 1368 DR) and the Demonweb Pits (spun off from the Abyss during Lolth's recent silence) seem to be the very newest planes. And there could have been countless other planes that have come and gone throughout the eons. Jergal is depicted as a mummified mantis-man. Is he the last vestige of a forgotten, ancient Thri-Kreen pantheon? It would make sense if a race of insect people evolved prior to the reptilian Sarrukh. If there was no historical record how would anyone know? And this is assuming that gods created the planes as soon as they came into being. For all we know Faerunian gods might not have had planes until the Dwarf and Elf gods interloped and taught them how to do it. I am relying on a supposition that planes are not a recent godly fad. Any thoughts? Have I missed anything? Is there a better order to place them in the chronology? It's all very speculative... What do you think? Cool, but Ao only admited to creating the gods, not the Cosmos. Also is mentioned in one of the dieties book that Ao is in fact a flunky to a "higher power" as well. And if there is anything left of First addition's "Player's Guide to Immortals" and "DM Guide to Immortal" I would still say the "The Immortals can manipulate and control the Cosmos, but did not create it" still holds true, but any panthoen trying to beat their follwers into awe would say that they created the Cosmos...yes? :rolleyes:
Gray Richardson 02-08-05, 12:14 AM	Cool, but Ao only admited to creating the gods, not the Cosmos.Actually I think you may have that reversed there. :) There are several sources that state that Ao created the universe. Specifically the FRCS, Faiths & Pantheons, and Faiths & Avatars. I don't know of any gods that Ao created. Unless I missed it somewhere, they are all said to have arisen on their own, fragmented or born of other gods, ascended from ordinary mortals, or interloped from other universes.Also is mentioned in one of the dieties book that Ao is in fact a flunky to a "higher power" as well.You are absolutely correct, Ao is said to do the will of a higher power described as a luminous being. Some have speculated that the luminous being is a veiled reference to you the DM.And if there is anything left of First addition's "Player's Guide to Immortals" and "DM Guide to Immortal" I would still say the "The Immortals can manipulate and control the Cosmos, but did not create it" still holds true, but any panthoen trying to beat their follwers into awe would say that they created the Cosmos...yes? :rolleyes:The two books you are referencing are great books but were designed using a different rule system, the D&D basic rule set. They only apply to the Mystara campaign system. The Forgotten Realms as it stands in 3E has a different cosmology from Mystara or even the cosmology of the 2E Realms. However, even using the 2E Realms, you would still be correct that the gods didn't create the cosmos. Although it was established that Ao at least created the Realms' crystal sphere which contains Realmspace. In 3E, things are somewhat different. Exactly how they are different though is an evolving story, and one which we are trying to humbly discuss and speculate on in this thread. :)
Gray Richardson 02-08-05, 06:34 PM	It is interesting to note that the Celestial World Tree that connects the celestial planes has it's roots in the two interloper demi-human planes of Arvandor and Dwarfhome. If the tree has its roots there, does that mean it was planted there? If so, then that could mean the World Tree was planted by the elven or sylvan creator race gods after the plane of Arvandor interloped over into the cosmology (best guestimate sometime between -34,000 and -30,000 DR). I still like the idea that the celestial world tree could be an avatar or fragment or perhaps even the "living" astral husk of the treant deity Emmantiensien, who was also part of the pantheon of faerie, and presumably the faerie creator race.
Thanael 02-09-05, 07:05 PM	The Aearee created the aaracokra, kenku, and other avian races. Weren`t the kenku created by a Netheril Mage ? I seem to remember some short story in the Realms of Magic anthology?
Gray Richardson 02-09-05, 11:57 PM	They could have been. I am not familiar with the reference. There are also two types of Tengu (crow tengu & humanoid tengu) listed in the Kara-Tur Monstrous Compendium.
The WarOverlord 02-10-05, 03:38 AM	Actually I think you may have that reversed there. :) There are several sources that state that Ao created the universe. Specifically the FRCS, Faiths & Pantheons, and Faiths & Avatars. "Forgotten Realms Adventures" by Jeff Grub and Ed Greenwood page 37 under the header "Cult of Ao" says that he never claimed to be the Creator of the Realms, just the Creator of the gods and then he confirmed Midnight the new Mystra and granted Cyric godhood Honestly, if Ao answers to a "higher power" then it is more likely the "higher power" then the "flunky" adopted and cultured the Realmspace, yes? But the "World tree" is a interesting analogy (Norse I think), but would clash with "Crystal Shperes" in emptiness concept that is Ancient Greek/Spelljammer with other realities in their own Shperes and the only way to cross it is via a "sidespace" or sorts, or clash as much as the World resting on the Titan Atlas' back, or the "Flat Earth" floating in space with "hell" below and the "Heavens" above But then again a little Sci-Fi show called Star Trek:Voyager showed that perspective is relative as the "mere humans" saw the Q Continuum confrontation as the "American Civil War' cause their minds couldn't handle the continuuum or the confrontation any other way Along that lines maybe Torilians can only perceive their world as some kind of nest in a "tree" cause that is the comon thought of how their Cosmos works? :P The two books you are referencing are great books but were designed using a different rule system, the D&D basic rule set. They only apply to the Mystara campaign system. The Forgotten Realms as it stands in 3E has a different cosmology from Mystara or even the cosmology of the 2E Realms Mystara? I know they were from a more simpler time when you didn't have to major in calculus and take 30 minutes of dice rolling to and calculating to get through one battle (Overexahgerating, I know :rolleyes: ) and was more about the fun then the math/mechanics I know the Forgotten Realms Realmspace and how it hooks up to the rest of the Megaverse is different, So is Darksun (A complepetly almost "removed" sphere), so is Ravenloft (a "overlaping" demi-shpere), so is Dragonstar, so is the 5 different Relamspaces that my PC Overlords like Ao have made and run with their own gods and Pantheons (I am guessing Ao is Ed Greens Overlord ?) Everything is cool :D
Gray Richardson 02-10-05, 08:51 AM	You are correct. Ao did not create the Realms. Ao only created the empty universe contained within Toril's crystal sphere. One might speculate also that he created the attendant Astral Plane and maybe the Ethereal and possibly the Inner Planes but how much of the planes he created is only speculative. As for Abeir-Toril, its sun and all the celestial bodies, they were created by Selune and Shar working together (at first anyways) at the dawn of time. Your Q continuum analogy however I think is quite apt. Ed Greenwood himself has said that mortals are incapable of fathoming the real truths behind the gods and the planes. As for the Luminous Being behind Ao. I think his story, and just how much a hand he has in creating and overseeing the universe will forever remain a mystery.
Gray Richardson 02-11-05, 02:02 AM	Ty brought to my attention in another thread that Ramenos has already been re-canonized in 3E in chapter 9 of Eric Boyd's Mintpers Chapbook series: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20011031a#8&origin= And in relevant part had this to say about Ramenos: the description of a frog-like fiend with six eyes matches only one other faith recorded in the encyclopedic compendium of faiths listed in Cults and Clerics: An Accounting of Religious Sects Since the Fall of Netheril, scribed by Loremaster Most Exalted Prespaerin Cadathlyn of the House of Many Tomes in upland Impiltur west of Songhal. According to the "Binder of Faerūn," the earliest known depictions of Ramenos -- the batrachian deity venerated by many bullywug tribes in the Marsh of Chelimber -- resemble a six-eyed lord of the slaadi. Again, this obscure reference ties the Hall of Mists to a modern-day faith practiced only by the debased descendants of the Creator Races. Not sure here if Eric is hinting that Ramenos may actually be a six-eyed Slaad Lord or just looks like one. I think it interesting that in 2E that Merrshaulk and Ramenos inhabited the 74th layer of the Abyss and this layer was named "Smaragd" or spelled as "Smargard" in the 3E Manual of the Planes. For a 3E home for the Sarrukh pantheon we might surmise that Smaragd (or Smargard) was the name of the plane of the World Serpent fragments of the scalyfolk deities. Eric Boyd had speculated that all the World Serpent Fragment gods might live in an outer plane called something like the Golden Scales of the Serpent, and Smaragd might be another name for the plane he is talking about, or Smaragd might just have been the name of a different plane or the divine realm that Merrshaulk inhabited. Or Smaragd could just be the name of the Batrachian pantheon plane. Perhaps Ramenos took it over after the Serpent gods abandonned it, or maybe he lived with Merrshaulk in Smaragd for a time. Or I suppose that Ramenos could conceivably be a fragment of Merrhaulk, although that seems unlikely. Whatever Ramenos is or was, whether god, or Slaad Lord or demon prince, it is cool that he got a mention in Eric's Mintpers Chapbooks. :cool:
Gray Richardson 03-24-05, 09:54 PM	Rereading the Player's Guide to Faerun I noticed that it suggested the Blood Rift may have had it's origins as an offshoot of the Barrens of Doom & Despair: The geographical similarity of Blood Rift to certain areas of the Barrens of Doom and Despair has led some to suggest that it was once a part of that plane, but was split off when divine rulers of the Barrens tired of having a fiendish war raging at the gates of their realms. I like this idea that it was once part of the Barrens and split off to become its own plane. It is adjacent to the Nine Hells and to the Abyss and allows for traffic between them. If the Abyss and the Hells are interloper planes, then the origin of how they entered into the FR cosmology might have something to do with the Barrens of Doom and Despair and whatever gods lived there at the begining of time. The Demons and Devils go back at least as far as 35,000 years ago since we know they had dealings with the Sarrukh. Of its current inhabitants, Bane, Beshaba, Loviatar, and Hoar are all recent additions to the Barrens. The only god that seems to have lived there since before the time of the Sarrukh was Talona. Unless of course there used to be some other gods that have since died off or disappeared--which there very likely were. Talona dates to near the dawn of time, when she (or a previous aspect of her) was spawned in the War of Light & Darkness between Selune & Shar. Talona may have been the one who invited or facilitated the Demons and Devils interloping over into the cosmology. She might have brought them over as mercenaries to fight in the War of Light & Darkness. Or she might have made a deal with the Yugoloths to provide troops, and the 'loths could have brought in the Demons & Devils. Whether it was Talona or some other god (perhaps long dead) that "let them in" I bet they had no idea what they were bargaining for! If their mercenary services were supposed to be temporary, I bet no one knew the fiends would all stick around after the war was over. Or maybe it is more complicated than that. Maybe the fiends serve some ongoing purpose in the cosmology that remains a mystery to us. The Hells and the Abyss might have been originally attached to the Barrens or started out as mere Realms of the Barrens, linked by the Blood Rift which joined the realms together by way of the River of Blood. The two groups of fiends shaped their home realm or planes into facsimiles of the planes they left behind on the Wheel or whatever other cosmology from whence they came. They started to war against each other in a Realms version of the Blood War just like the Blood War being waged across countless other universes. Finally, Talona (or some other god or group) lost her patience with the fiends and split off the Blood Rift along with the Hells and the Abyss to float away into the Astral, like some demented iceberg, leaving her in peace. Or maybe the split was rather initiated by the fiends instead, stealing away a huge portion of the Barrens to form their own plane (or triad of planes) in a machiavellian land grab. Whatever the origin of these planes, it all seems intimately linked somehow with the Barrens of Doom and Despair--The first plane of Evil in the Realms Cosmology.
Galen-Leigh 03-27-05, 07:12 PM	I'm wondering if there are more creator gods then AO what if the other universes have there own version of AO? who created all of them = o
Gray Richardson 03-27-05, 09:41 PM	Many people speculate that most crystal spheres or campaign worlds might have their own overgods that created them or watch over them. We know that Krynn has an overgod, like Ao, I think he is called "the High God". He's the only other one I know of for sure. Many think the Lady of Pain in Sigil is an overgod, but others will dispute this. According to Deities & Demigods and Faiths & Pantheons, an overgod is a deity with divine rank greater than 20. Sort of an epic god. Overgods do not need worshipers like normal gods do, and they don't even usually associate with mortals. They work behind the scenes and tend to keep a very low profile. I figure that overgods must have access to overdivine salient abilities one of which is probably "Create Crystal Sphere" or "Create Cosmology". We do not know that overgods are only concerned with creating universes, their concerns are transcendant and ineffable. And we don't know that all crystal spheres have an overgod. But we have evidence that at least 2 overgods (Ao & the High God) have created and concern themselves with specific crystal spheres. So it seems likely there are others.
ripvanwormer 03-27-05, 11:17 PM	The Highfather apparently resides somewhere "Beyond" - where the oldest gods of Krynn also came from - and interferes with the affairs of the Krynnish deities only extremely rarely, if at all. He didn't even create the Dragonlance worlds or planes - the lesser gods did that. He set things in motion and now merely waits; his influence is usually only that oaths made by the gods in his name are binding for them. He isn't much like Ao, who seems to have made all sorts of arbitrary rules and is constantly (relatively speaking) promoting, demoting, firing and hiring gods, allowing some into "his" sphere and blocking others. I think the Highgod is an overdeity done right, while Ao is just annoying. Oerth has a few personified cosmic forces (or, at least, it did in Gygax's novels) who resemble overgods in some ways, and don't resemble them in others - Proctor Chronos, Dame Possibility, and Master Entropy (and Tharizdun as an imprisoned and somewhat less powerful fourth, representing evil). They don't have anything to do with Oerth or Greyspace specifically; they watch over thousands or millions of worlds at once.
The WarOverlord 03-28-05, 10:06 AM	I'm wondering if there are more creator gods then AO what if the other universes have there own version of AO? who created all of them = o There is always a bigger fish According to my understanding they do, with each overgod tending to at least one "existence" In the case of Ao it was stated that even "he" is a Flunky to something called the Celestial light, or the shining light,or...er...<brain fart> The opening statement of the DM guide to immortals state that while Immortals have the power to manipulate existence, the truth is they didn't create it and "existence" is infinite with uncountable "Universes" like marbles across a void that a Immortal may claim as it own and manipulate to it's own whims. The "ubbergods" are more powerful then the overgods and the "Ancient ones" even more powerful still, with "even more Ancient ones" still even more powerful that predate all immortals (thus the "bigger fish" statement), and surely there are more powerful Immortals that would make Ao quake in it's boots in the thought that they could gobble up his prescious "Forgotten Realms" like a snack along with Ao and not think twice about it.
Graz'zt, Prince of Shadow 03-28-05, 05:16 PM	Your Q continuum analogy however I think is quite apt. Ed Greenwood himself has said that mortals are incapable of fathoming the real truths behind the gods and the planes. And vice versa. Hasn't it been established in a couple novels that deities see everything through the skewed lens of their portfolios?
Gray Richardson 04-09-05, 05:04 PM	After some thinking, it only stands to reason that if Shar was bringing in Yugoloths, Demons & Devils from outside the cosmology to fight as mercenaries for her in the War of Light & Darkness, then Selune probably did the same. Very likely then, Selune sought the aid of the Archons and Morwen's Eladrin too, to help her defend against Shar. The ones that came may be originally from the Great Wheel (most likely) or from some other cosmology that had a Celestia a Baator and an Abyss. Meanwhile, Shar was trying to slay all the life that Chauntea had brought forth as punishment for Chauntea conspiring with Selune to create the sun for warmth. It seems logical that Chauntea enlisted the Guardinals to come into the cosmology and fight for her in defense of life. Selune very likely raised a mountain, or an island for the Archons on her plane of the Gates of the Moon to serve as a home base. Just as she did for the Eladrin. After the War of Light & Darkness ended in a truce forged by Mystryl, the Guardinals stayed with Chauntea, who made a home for them to frollick and hunt on her plane of the House of Nature. The Eladrin stayed--they seem to have had some sort of ties or affinity with the Fey creator race. And the Archons stayed as well--to keep watch against the demons & devils if for nothing else. The Archons fashioned their island in the ocean of the Gates of the Moon to resemble their home plane back on the Great Wheel, the Seven Heavens of Mount Celestia. Over time, the Mountain drifted off through the Astral and became a plane in its own right. I don't know if this was a natural process or if there was a precipitating event which caused the split. It is interesting to note that the Eladrins' Court of Stars is still part of Selune's realm and persists to this day as an island not far from Selune's realm in the boundless shimmering ocean on the plane of the Gates of the moon. The plane of Celestia looked very much like the version on the Great Wheel, of which it is essentially a copy. That is, until about -247 DR when Tyr came into the FR cosmology from some other multiverse, maybe the Great Wheel even. Tyr established his divine realm on Mount Celestia. It was probably a plot of land on the first layer of Lunia. As Tyr rose to greater godhood, Tyr grew his realm, expanding into the silver sea, until he had raised his own mountain off to the side of Mount Celestia. Siamorphe would eventually come to keep her realm in the valley formed between where the two mountains touched. Ilmater and Helm joined with Tyr soon after, and each in turn raised their own moutains around Celestia. Now containing more than just Seven Heavens, the plane over time came to be known as the House of the Triad. This theory explains how demons, devils, yugoloths, archons, eladrins and guardinals, all interloped over into the FR cosmology early on, back during the War of Light & Darkness between Selune & Shar, and why they set up planes on the Great Tree that look very much like their planes of origin back on the Great Wheel.
ripvanwormer 04-09-05, 07:37 PM	Here is another weird theory: Maybe the world ash or the world tree that links the celestial planes is a Treant deity or perhaps the last vestige of the plane of the Treant pantheon. Maybe that is the contribution that the treants made to the planes when they interloped over from another dimension. "Emmantiensien is the timeless god of treants. Much as World Serpents appear in many myths as timeless beings of wisdom, so Emmantiensien is a World Tree having no origin in time; he has always existed. The roots of Emmantiensien are curled around a magical crystal, fashioned by some unnamed and unknown god, and from this crystal the Treant-King can draw power which the sylvan deities can otherwise not employ, not even Titania herself." - Monster Mythology.
ripvanwormer 04-09-05, 08:02 PM	It is safe to say that the first dragons were born (or at least hatched) on Toril, right? Giants are supposedly the descendents of Annam and the demigoddess Othea, who was also a physical mountain. Most current giants are only seven or eight generations removed from Annam and Othea, so they're quite a young race from their perspective (although they're older than humanity). Dragonkind has been on Toril some ten million years, according to the group of sages known as the Club of Candlekeep 2e Draconomnicon. Their ancestors were contemporaries of the great dinosaurs. Eodraco, the first creature that could truly be considered a dragon, arose about 12 to 10 million years before the present day. They were most similar to wyverns. Kelmara of Arabel disagrees with this, claiming that modern dragons are no more than 10,000 years old, although she admits older non-sentient dragons might well have existed. Then there's the theory that Io laid an egg in the heart of each world that became the Sleeping Deep Dragons, who sustain the worlds with their heat, their blood, and their dreams.
ripvanwormer 04-09-05, 08:15 PM	Anyway, is it possible that the Faerie gods held more than one plane? Is it possible that the Dark Faeries, the Unseelie Court had their own plane--sort of a Faerie "Hell" in the Great Tree cosmology? According to Monster Mythology they did. Their original home was called Ladinion. After dwarven miners discovered a great black diamond and gave it to the sister of Queen Titania, the gem corrupted the young goddess and transformed her into the Queen of Air and Darkness. The mountain the dwarves had been mining exploded, poisoning the plane and forcing the Seelie Court to find a new homeland.
ripvanwormer 04-09-05, 08:25 PM	We know the Elves migrated to Toril through Faerie, but do not know if they were native to Faerie or used Faerie as a transitive plane to come from some other world. There is a world already well established in Realms continuity that the Elves may have come from. Just prior to the time of the Orcgate wars (-1081 DR) the theurgist adept Thayd one of the last surviving surface-dwelling Imaskari, opened a portal to a savage world dominated by empires of fanatically religious orcs. These Orcs streamed through the portal in hordes resulting in the devastating Orcgate wars in Mulhorand and Unther. There's another possibility: they could have fled from Threnody while Kiaransalee was destroying it with her hordes of undead (Demihuman Deities, page 23). Since this happened before Lolth's fall, it must have been at least 30,000 years ago according to the Ancient Empires timeline. At any rate, it could have been the origin of the Ssri-Tel'quessir.
The WarOverlord 04-10-05, 01:35 AM	And vice versa. Hasn't it been established in a couple novels that deities see everything through the skewed lens of their portfolios? Depends on inate powers, powers of thier Portfolio , powers given to them by thier superior(s)/Creator(s), and oppositional "powers that be" with opposite portfolios, powers, goals, etc If one godling is putting a "dampening field" around one of it's projects, servants or interests, then only a higher ranked godling would have any chance of prying into that dampening field with the whole chance of being discovered, open war, insult,blah,blah,blah. For example didn't the godling of Knowledge give that girl that made the Book of Cyric a device that makes her undetectable to the godlings and their Clerics that may be looking for her to get that Book?
The WarOverlord 04-10-05, 02:13 AM	The Highfather apparently resides somewhere "Beyond" - where the oldest gods of Krynn also came from - and interferes with the affairs of the Krynnish deities only extremely rarely, if at all. He didn't even create the Dragonlance worlds or planes - the lesser gods did that. He set things in motion and now merely waits; his influence is usually only that oaths made by the gods in his name are binding for them. He isn't much like Ao, who seems to have made all sorts of arbitrary rules and is constantly (relatively speaking) promoting, demoting, firing and hiring gods, allowing some into "his" sphere and blocking others. I think the Highgod is an overdeity done right, while Ao is just annoying. Oerth has a few personified cosmic forces (or, at least, it did in Gygax's novels) who resemble overgods in some ways, and don't resemble them in others - Proctor Chronos, Dame Possibility, and Master Entropy (and Tharizdun as an imprisoned and somewhat less powerful fourth, representing evil). They don't have anything to do with Oerth or Greyspace specifically; they watch over thousands or millions of worlds at once. Well, as far as letting some godlings in and banning others there is mention in the 3rd Eddition Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting that the "great Migration' of a lot of the Races were "Slave raids" from other realms via dimensional portals that the "creator races" (not really, they stole creatures from other realms then had the technology and magic to "modify them" to new races/ mutants for their needs) used. Ao, after hearing the enslaved peoples/creatures pleading for their gods help allowed Avatars of the godlings to enter the Forgotten Realms though most of the really powerful ones were only allowed to bring in independent mortal versions of themselves if not a "lessor versions" of themselves, also independent of there true selves as the Torilian godlings are in essence more frail than some of the "Urth Immortals" like Tyr (a lessor version of itself AO let into his RealmSpace) or the Egyptain and Eastern/European godlings that know more ways to escape permanent death then Bane could even shake a stick at that was limited to very mortal avatars but could procreate new beings like them and ruled their kingdoms until more recently when the last of them croaked, well last "god king" type known to be hanging around anyways (not that it matters cause Ao allows the prayers of the faithful to cross his "godslock" and allows the prayers to be answered now without the need of physical involvement of the "source gods" in the Realms)
ripvanwormer 04-28-05, 11:12 PM	Primordial Sea Creatures = Fated Depths Deities of nature and Landbased critters took up residence in House of Nature Who knows how many gods & planes arose & were lost before the coming of the Creator Races. Ubtao seems to be a holdout from the dinosaur era. Days of Thunder Sarrukh worshipped the World Serpent = Deep Caverns (Smargard?), Merrshaulk fragmented off and eventually took up residence in the Abyss. Batrachi = Unknown, maybe Deep Caverns but maybe Limbo/or the Supreme Throne (prior to being claimed by Cyric) Lords of Madness says that once (in the generic implied world of the supplement), perhaps millions or even billions of years ago, the aboleths ruled the entire planet in the lightless primordial seas of that era. During that time they experimented with the life of the ancient world, from oozes to constructs to even animals and humanoids, creating an endless variety of slaves to serve their will. Later the aboleth empire was destroyed by something (perhaps the gods themselves), and new races the aboleths had nothing to do with rose to dominate the world. My question is this: is it possible that aboleths are the amphibious creator race? The idea that a single species created or even evolved into such diverse creatures as kuo-toas, bullywugs, and dopplegangers seemed unlikely to me (though it is kind of cool to think of dopplegangers as having fishy origins), but aboleths seem very likely to have experimented with just the sorts of creatures the amphibious creators are credited with making. How this ties in with the idea that the bullywugs are descended from far more intelligent and sophisticated ancestors I'm not sure, but the aboleths might have created them as well.
Gray Richardson 04-29-05, 12:52 AM	I like that idea. I am fond of the aboleths. I used them as the big bad guys in one of the last campaigns I ran. Although there is some evidence to support that the batrachi look more froggy, like bullywugs, sivs or slaad. We know they worshipped the god Ramenos. There is a statue of Ramenos found under Grandfather Tree that looks a lot like a six-eyed slaad. Read the Eric Boyd's very cool Mintper's Chapbook Chapter 9: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20011031a. Serpent Kingdoms also says that many scholars believe that the Batrachi actually left Faerun for the planes and became the slaad--but I think this is a red herring myself. Even though I don't think the Batrachi became the slaad, I think the slaad might have been intimately connected with the Batrachi pantheon. Ramenos may have even been a slaad lord come to think of it. We know however that the aboleths worshipped different gods, Pisaethces the Blood Queen I believe has an official nod in the FR canon mentioned as the aboleth patron in Drizzt Dourden's Guide to the Underdark. I was thinking her realm might go well in the Blood Rift, but on second thought the Fated Depths would probably be more appropriate. Although I imagine she also swims up and down the length of the River of Blood and probably considers it all her territory anyway.
Gray Richardson 04-29-05, 01:58 AM	I have also been thinking a lot recently that most planes in the FR cosmology must have started as realms that were part of another plane and got separated over time to become planes in their own right. Lolth ripping her realm free of the Abyss and making it into a full-fledged plane I think is not a novel occurence and is only the most recent example in a long tradition of creating new planes from realestate separated from other planes. Arvandor for instance is littered with giant ruins. It appears to be territory that was seized by the Seldarine from the Giant pantheon, probably ripped free from Jotunheim. Or its possible that the Giant gods were at first friends with the Seldarine and let them settle in Jotunheim. Or maybe the elf gods tricked the giants out of the realestate. That seems like something that Corellon or Erevan would have done, and would make for a great myth how the elves stole their paradise from Annam through a clever ruse and "liberated" their territory from Jotunheim to establish Arvandor as its own plane elsewhere in the branches of the Great Tree. Jotunheim in turn was probably originally part of the House of Nature. The mother of all giants, Othea, was actually a mountain in Faerun. She was both a demi-goddess and a mountain, and although she had a physical manifestation on the prime material, she probably--as a nature goddess--had a divine realm in the House of Nature even if only for her petitioners. Annam interloped over to Realmspace and fell in love with Othea and fathered the giant race with her. No doubt Annam established his divine realm either next to or cohabiting in Othea's divine realm in the House of Nature. As Annam brought over his sons--the rest of his pantheon--from another cosmology, they probably set up shop in Annam & Othea's territory in the House of Nature, and eventually controlled so much territory that they just ripped it free from the HoN to make Jotunheim a separate plane. Or maybe Annam ripped her realm free from House of Nature to set it up as Jotunheim as a wedding gift or a wooing gift to Othea. The PGtF suggests that the Blood Rift was originally ripped free from the Barrens of Doom & Despair (probably along with the demon realm and the hells of the devils which grew into a Faerunian version of Baator & the Abyss). I think Selune probably brought over the archons from outside the universe to help her fight Shar and her mercenary fiends in the War of Light & Darkness. I can envision the archons setting up their celestial mountain as an island in the shining sea of the Gates of the Moon, until eventually they pulled it free to set up Celestia as a plane in its own right, with Tyr coming along in -247 DR to "add on" to Celestia with Ilmater, Torm & Helm to renovate Celestia into the House of the Triad in a colossal celestial home make-over. Fated Depths might have originally split off from House of Nature, and so might the plane of Deep Caverns possibly have split off from the House of Nature or the Barrens or whatever plane the scalyfolk deities call home (Scales of the World Serpent as Eric Boyd speculated? Courts of Light? World Serpent Inn?). Brightwater I think was probably originally part of Arvandor. When Tyche interloped over to Toril she established her realm of Olympus (named after the home she came from in another cosmology) which was originally connected to Arvandor as we know from the novel Evermeet. In fact if Corellon "tricked" the giants into surrendering part of Jotunheim to create Arvandor then it could have been in league with Tyche who helped Corellon by giving him good luck and so maybe that is how she threw in with the elves and set up her Faerunian realm next to them in Arvandor. After Tyche split into Tymora and Beshaba, Beshaba went off to settle in the Barrens of Doom & Despair, and Tymora kept Tyche's realm of Olympus, which she eventually renamed to Brightwater having lost whatever connection to the Greek pantheon that her "mother" Tyche may have felt. Sune set up her realm next to Tymora's and it probably was still part of Arvandor at that time because Sune had very close ties to the elven pantheon, especially Hanali Celanil, with whom Sune shared the Evergold Fountain which seems to have defined the border between Sune's and Hanali's realms at one time. I feel certain by the way that Sune must have been a daughter of Selune but by who? Lathander maybe (the red hair) or possibly even Hanali Celanil--both would make good candidates as the hypothetical sire of Sune. Brightwater is said to have only been around for 50 years or so in On Hallowed Ground, so I am thinking it was probably only separated from Arvandor and set up as a separate plane as recently as circa 1320 DR (give or take). Cyric's realm of the Shattered Castle on the plane of the Supreme Throne is said to be ripped free from some other plane in On Hallowed Ground. Fury's Heart is another plane that I think probably got ripped free of the House of Nature way back when. It contains a bunch of evil nature gods that would have seemed a "natural" fit for the House of Nature in the begining, but they would have been inclined to secede to form their own evil nature plane eons ago. This is one thing that I love about the Great Tree: it continually grows and forks and branches. Some planes and realms even get "pruned" from time to time. (eg: Zigguraxas, the Keep of the Sun, the Courts of Illusion, the Bastion of Hate, etc.) I love how the Great Tree is this dynamic, living cosmology that is constantly evolving--adding new planes and subtracting dead ones as the pantheons change. :g:
ripvanwormer 05-01-05, 03:41 PM	Although there is some evidence to support that the batrachi look more froggy, like bullywugs, sivs or slaad. We know they worshipped the god Ramenos. How about this, then: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/ripvanwormer/geneology.jpg
Gray Richardson 05-01-05, 11:47 PM	Possibly, very possibly. I could see the aboleths creating the Batrachi and the Batrachi going on to become the famed "creator race." Froghemoths are awesome! I never made the connection but of course they would have to be a batrachi creation! Probably to guard temples or keep their slaves in line or something. If they ever do a sourcebook that deals with the batrachi, they would have to bring back the froghemoth! ;) By the way, don't forget to include the locathah, the tako, and perhaps even the kapoacinths, merrows and scrags on your chart.
Valgard 05-02-05, 12:01 PM	First of all, Congratulations to all of you for this thread, specially for Mr. Richardson, a really wise sage in the matter of the new cosmology. I've tried to read all the postings this afternoon and I've got the main idea of what is being exposed here (I read all first page, most of second, at least half of third and some picked material from forth). In the Aboleth Affair: The idea of aboleths being "in the middle of the kitchen" is very interesting for me. BUT THERE'S ALWAYS A "BUT". The FRCS says that Batrachi were an AMPHIBIOUS SHAPECHANGER race (I didn't realize it since I writed this right now) and doppelgangers descend from them. I think it's logic for doppelgangers to have a direct ascendance from batrachi because they were (are???) shapechangers. I think that FRCS also says that kuo-toa are descended from batrachi (not sure). In the Supreme Throne/Limbo affair: I vote for the fact that maybe was Limbo a plane prior to Supreme Throne and Warrior's Rest, so slaadi and githzerai inhabited there, but then SOMEONE created two planes from one. Who wanted Supreme Throne for himself I don't know, but you have exposed many interesting theories. Another thing I want to comment is that the slaadi are always refered to "descend" or at least "be related" to batrachi. This is irrefutable because it appears in Serpent Kingdoms, if I'm not wrong, but it seems that this relation is taken because "slaadi seem like frogs". As said in the Monster Manual description, no one slaadi looks like another one, so not all slaadi should seem like frogs, but it's just my opinion.
ripvanwormer 05-02-05, 12:15 PM	Another thing I want to comment is that the slaadi are always refered to "descend" or at least "be related" to batrachi. This is irrefutable because it appears in Serpent Kingdoms, if I'm not wrong, but it seems that this relation is taken because "slaadi seem like frogs". As said in the Monster Manual description, no one slaadi looks like another one, so not all slaadi should seem like frogs, but it's just my opinion. What has to be remembered is that slaadi reproduce (in part) by transforming other creatures. It could well be that the batrachi simply became extinct because blue slaadi transformed them all into their own kind. These newborn red slaadi would be descended from batrachi, but batrachi wouldn't be the origins of the entire species. It's not irrefutable, anyway, since it's presented just as a rumor, not as fact. It's something some sages believe. Clueless ones. You're right that some slaadi don't look remotely froglike, though these are apparently rare. The Spawning Stone is supposed to weed them out, but it doesn't.
Gray Richardson 05-02-05, 12:53 PM	First of all, Congratulations to all of you for this thread, specially for Mr. Richardson, a really wise sage in the matter of the new cosmology.Thank you very much! I take my Great Tree scholarship very seriously and hope that this thread has helped in some small part to get the community thinking about the cosmology. :) In the Supreme Throne/Limbo affair: I vote for the fact that maybe was Limbo a plane prior to Supreme Throne and Warrior's Rest, so slaadi and githzerai inhabited there, but then SOMEONE created two planes from one. Who wanted Supreme Throne for himself I don't know, but you have exposed many interesting theories. I am hoping ever so much that there will be a hint or two of planar lore about the slaadi and the Supreme Throne in Champions of Ruin. It should be just a couple of weeks now before it is released and I am sure there will be a lot of fun stuff to talk about found within. Another thing I want to comment is that the slaadi are always refered to "descend" or at least "be related" to batrachi. This is irrefutable because it appears in Serpent Kingdoms, if I'm not wrong, but it seems that this relation is taken because "slaadi seem like frogs". As said in the Monster Manual description, no one slaadi looks like another one, so not all slaadi should seem like frogs, but it's just my opinion.Please note, that in Serpent Kingdoms it only says that scholars believe that the Batrachi journeyed to the planes to become the slaadi. As we all know, scholars can be wrong sometimes. ;) The author Eric Boyd has said he threw that line in as merely a theory and did not mean for it to be taken as gospel. He also has said on these forums that the next time he gets the chance to mention the slaadi he will throw out an alternative, contradictory theory. I guess the mystery of the origins of the slaadi and the disappearance of the Batrachi will remain as muddy as the waters of the swamps they used to live in. ;)
ripvanwormer 05-02-05, 03:38 PM	New table: Geneology of aboleth creations (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/ripvanwormer/geneology2.jpg)
Gray Richardson 05-02-05, 07:02 PM	New table: Geneology of aboleth creations (http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v149/ripvanwormer/geneology2.jpg)I like it, but what does it say about me that you have me descended from an ooze? ;)
Valgard 05-03-05, 01:44 PM	New table: Genealogy of aboleth creationsFirenewts are related to lizardfolk, so I don't think they are related to batrachi. Serpent Kingdoms tells that they possibly are not creeation of the sarrukh because of their devotion to Kossuth and not an aspect of the World Serpent.
ripvanwormer 05-03-05, 03:16 PM	Firenewts are related to lizardfolk, so I don't think they are related to batrachi. Yes, supposedly, but both newts and salamanders (one of the names of the race is 'salamen') are amphibians, so this seems unlikely. If they're actually lizards they've got an unusually inaccurate set of names. I think it'd be more interesting to have them be amphibians, anyway; there are plenty of frog-races, but no newts or salamanders other than the firenewts. Oh, and the hurwaeti and syllix, but they're both Spelljamming species. Serpent Kingdoms tells that they possibly are not creeation of the sarrukh because of their devotion to Kossuth and not an aspect of the World Serpent. Serpent Kingdoms is wise.
Valgard 05-04-05, 12:50 PM	After reviewing Planar Handbook I invite you to consider the neraph, the "Right!, now I can play a slaad character!" race of this book. We can consider they don't exist in Torilian cosmology, but I think it's more interesting consider that maybe they are the descended batrachi that escaped to Limbo (The famous sentence in the Player's Guide To Faerūn where appears Limbo). Maybe you could place them in Warrior's Rest rather than Supreme Throne, but this is a personal opinion. I don't see them as much evil as slaadi can become (the death slaadi are considered chaotic evil in the MM).
Gray Richardson 05-04-05, 02:02 PM	I think you may have something there. I don't remember if the Neraph were definitively linked to the Slaad in Planar Handbook or not. I kinda like the idea that the Neraph in the Realms could be descendants of Batrachi that took up residence in the planes. And Warrior's Rest is as good or better a place for Neraph as the Supreme Throne. Both planes are chaos aligned. Supreme Throne is strongly chaotic but mildly evil. While Warriors Rest is only mildly chaotic but neither good nor evil aligned.
rgd20 05-05-05, 04:27 AM	Next Selune created the sun. Its personification, Amaunatar, established his divine realm of the Keep of the Eternal Sun, presumably attached to the House of Nature next to Chauntea's garden, but possibly a plane in its own right. them in the chronology? It's all very speculative... What do you think? I always thought that the sun was a massive portal to the positive energy plane , rather than the plane of fire (source of all life harms undead etc...)
Gray Richardson 05-05-05, 08:57 AM	That sounds good too. The plane of radiance has also been suggested. I am just going by what's in the creation myth in the History section of the FRCS where it says that Selūne reached beyond the universe to a plane of fire to create the sun.
Gray Richardson 05-13-05, 12:58 AM	Velsharoon is a very recent god. Acording to Powers & Pantheons he ascended to divinity at the end of 1368 DR with the help of Talos the Destroyer. Velsharoon remained a vassal of Talos for two years before switching his loyalty to Azuth sometime around the end of 1370/beginning of 1371. Presumably then Velsharoon did not originally establish his divine realm in Dweomerheart upon his ascension. This has not been addressed in 3E canon yet, but in 2E his realm was in Gehenna on the layer of Mungoth. My best guess is that in 3E continuity he established his realm in Talos's homeplane of Fury's Heart. However, one could also make the case that his realm was instead in the Barrens of Doom & Despair or the Blood Rift. Even though Velsharoon served Talos, he didn't share a plane with Talos in 2E. Talos lived in Pandesmos and Velsharoon made his home in Gehenna. The Blood Rift is similar to Gehenna in some respects although it seems to have some sort of ban on divine realms. The Barrens also has kind of a Gehenna-ish vibe, so it is possible Velsharoon laired there. Fury's Heart is the most likely guess, with the Barrens a possible second, and the Blood Rift a distant third. Heck, demigods don't even have to have a divine realm, so it may even be that in 3E continuity he laired in the prime material plane for a couple years. But best guess is Fury's Heart. It is clear however that circa 1370-1371 Velsharoon relocated his domain to Dweomerheart when he shifted his allegiance to Azuth. I doubt he physically (or metaphysically) moved his realm. He probably just abandonned the old one and reestablished a new one on Dweomerheart in the catacombs beneath the plateau of Mystra's grand city. This is a further example that the Great Tree is a very dynamic cosmology which has seen quite a few planar shakeups in recent years.
Gray Richardson 05-16-05, 08:54 PM	Rilmani do exist in the Realms. Players Guide to Faerun says they live in the House of Knowledge. The Rilmani however are so intimately associated with the Outlands of the Great Wheel cosmology. They seem so integral to a cosmology that orders itself according to alignments. So what may you ask are they doing so far away from their beloved spire? And furthermore, if they are exemplars of true neutrality, why the heck would they set up camp in a mildly good aligned (and decidedly not neutral) plane as their home base? Well, I think there are a couple of very good explanations for all this. The Rilmani are obviously interlopers from the Great Wheel just like many of the other fiends and celestials who have colonized the Great Tree. My theory is that Oghma brought them with him from the Outlands when he interloped into the FR cosmology. Why did Oghma need Rilmani? Well, the simple answer is that he may have just brought them over as servitors. He had probably picked up quite a retinue of Rilmani over on the Outlands and when he moved to the Great Tree he probably packed up his peeps and brought them over with him. But I think they might have been brought over for an even greater purpose. Originally there were no angels or demons or devils or yugoloths or archons or eladrins in the cosmology if the Faerunian creation myth is to be believed. There was just Shar and Selune originally who were very happy in the early days of creation when they created Chauntea and filled the celestial bodies with life. Then war broke out over whether to create the sun to warm Chauntea. My theory is that Shar imported all the fiendish races as mercenaries to fight in the War of Light and Darkness. And Selune likewise brought in the Archons and Eladrin to fight on her side while Chauntea invited in the Guardinals to protect the primitive life that Shar was trying so hard to extinguish. Most likely all these races interloped over (or were invited in) from the neighboring Great Wheel cosmology, which Shar had discovered early on--as her realm is in the Shadow plane and Shadow is connected to Greyhawk's Great wheel. Now the Myth of Oghma is that he interlopes into the cosmology roughly contemporaneously with the time of the War of Light and Darkess. Not sure if it is before, during or after the War. My best guess is that, when Shar first started attacking with all her fiendish armies, Selune, in desperation, travelled or sent envoys out beyond the edges of the cosmolgy to seek some aid. I figure Selune discovered Oghma and sought his knowledge and he agreed to come over or send an avatar to counsel her and helped her to meet and enlist the aid of celestials imported from the Wheel to combat Shar's fiendish mercenaries. So suddenly Realmspace is filled with warring Gods and Outsiders. And, long story short, Selune tears the essence of magic from her body and hurls it at Shar forming Mystryl. Afterwards, Mystryl forges a truce between her warring parents at the meeting house in Cynosure. Anyway, the Myth of Oghma is that he came into the cosmology and granted names to all these concepts and deities that were newborn in the wake of the War. He may have even been present at the signing of the compact at Cynosure which ended the war. I like to think he was the scribe that recorded the procedings and the treaty. My guess then is that Oghma brought in the Rilmani to specifically assist with the treaty and be enforcers of the balance. Or if not enforcers exactly then as administrators, facilitators and adjudicators of points and conflicts that arose in the wake of the uneasy truce following the war. The Rilmani have thus taken up their place in their sponsor Oghma's House of Knowledge and become permanent fixtures in the FR planes ever since. Their continuing function within the Great Tree may still be to oversee and administer the details of that ancient truce and maintain the balance between all the outsiders that settled in the planes of the Tree following the War of Light and Darkness at the dawn of creation.
ripvanwormer 05-17-05, 03:04 AM	The Rilmani however are so intimately associated with the Outlands of the Great Wheel cosmology. They seem so integral to a cosmology that orders itself according to alignments. So what may you ask are they doing so far away from their beloved spire? One idea I played with in my Imaskari story was that the trunk of the planar tree in the Realms setting is somehow the same as, or equivalent to, the Spire. Perhaps it manifests in physical form in Oghma's house. Your theory for why the rilmani are in the cosmology at all seems sound and interesting.
Gray Richardson 05-21-05, 04:13 PM	I keep thinking back to the moment of creation. The obvious metaphor for the creation of a tree shaped cosmology would be the planting of a seed or an acorn. All cosmologies are linked by Shadow, so Shadow I would think had to pre-exist the creation of the cosmology. So I have started to think of the plane of Shadow as the medium within which the Great Tree grows. So when I think about the creation of the Realms universe, the image I get is one of Ao searching for the best spot in which to perform his making. He leaves the more populated areas of the plane and comes to a place in deepest Shadow where the shadowstuff is rich and ripe with possibility. And then he plants his seed in the "soil" of Shadow. And from that planting, an Astral Plane sprouts in the shape of a tree. At first it is merely a stem, but atop the stem a flower soon blossoms and wrapped within the petals of these inner planes, is revealed the Crystal Sphere of Realmspace. The Crystal Sphere at first contained nothing but ethereal mists, raw potentiality from which, over time, the material plane resolved into Shar and Selūne who went on to create the celestial bodies and all life within. Outside, the astral xylem and phloem of the tree continued to grow beyond the crystal sphere. Onwards and upwards, first forming the branch on which Selūnes plane of the Gates of the Moon depended. Next forming the branch to which Chauntea's little garden plane was attached (later to grow into the expansive House of Nature). Shar of course made her home in the Shadow plane, apart from the Astral, which may in itself be a metaphor for her alienation. Soon the Tree would sprout new branches. In the wake of the War of Light and Darkness, there was so much death and destruction, the astral xylem and phloem (which some sages call "astral conduits") had a surfeit of soulstuff to conduct to the outer planes, the raw nutrient from which planes are made. The tree channels those nutrients to form the new planes of the Keep of the Sun, the House of Knowledge, Warriors Rest and deep within the roots of the tree, the first evil plane, the Barrens of Doom and Despair. In my own image of the Great Tree, I see the Barrens of Doom and Despair as growing from a root, rather than a branch, as I do all the fiendish planes. Although that point is certainly debatable. It is merely a metaphor to describe the metaphysical structure of the cosmology of Faerun. The little stem would grow into a sturdy trunk to support the mass of all the multiplying branches that would grow, over the eons, into our present FR cosmology. All from a seed planted by Ao.
Kuje31 05-21-05, 04:20 PM	I mentioned this before in one of the flaming threads but Realmspace always has had a part of maybe Yggdrasil called Yggdrasil's Child. AO could have used that tree, on Graden, to grow the planes. :)
Gray Richardson 05-23-05, 09:35 PM	Consider Shar. She was so happy in the first days of creation. There was a perfect balance between light and dark. She exulted in creation with her sister Selūne. Together they made Chauntea and the celestial bodies and filled them all with life. The three of them were a happy family. Then Chauntea conspired with Selūne to create the Sun. A sun to banish darkness. It would destroy their perfect balance and diminish or even destroy Shar. She must have felt so betrayed. Alone in her anguish, as she sulked in her Shadow realm, Shar's portfolios of loss and hatred first began to emerge and fester. And then one night (for it was always night back then) a roving Baernaloth or Ultraloth, perhaps Kexxon himself--attracted from across deepest Shadow by the wafting scent of her pain--came knocking at Shar's tower door with a solution to all her woes. Revenge. Premptive strike. Punishment. WAR he counseled her. And the spark of joy again filled Shar's eyes. In exchange for certain "considerations" the yugoloth became Shar's tutor in her education on evil. It fostered in her an awareness of the instruments of her retribution and a desire to bend those tools in the execution of her dark will. The fiend escorted Shar across deepest Shadow to the borders of a neighboring cosmology, guiding her to certain fiendish planes within to make her introduction among the most powerful of archdevils, ancient nighthags, and demon princes. Contracts were made. Legions of mercenaries were hired. The price she paid was the pledge of territory, a beachhead for the fiends from which to invade her pristine, untainted crystal sphere. And souls. A new source of souls to serve as grist for the ever-churning mill of their Blood War. Gargauth perhaps was sent by the Baatezu to oversee their Faerunian operation. Many of the Demon Princes sent fiendish avatars of themselves to oversee their own legions. In Shar's curious absence, Chauntea and Selūne reveled in the prospect of nourishing warmth and the new life they would make as they drew their plans to craft a sun. And in the midst of their joyful contemplation, the endless peace was shattered as Shar began her invasion at the head of fiendish armies--bearing war, disease, strife, destruction and death in her wake. Of course there were no names for these concepts back then. But Oghma was soon to name them.
Gray Richardson 05-28-05, 06:38 PM	The "Four Astrals" phenomenon in the FR cosmology is something that has oft been remarked upon over on these boards. Just for a little background: Maztica and Zakhara have their own pocket astral planes which connect to special divine planes for their own pantheons. While Kara-Tur has a qualitatively different transitive plane: it is a Spirit World which either substitutes for an Astral or is an Astral plane with very different characteristics from your run-of-the-mill astral. You can find out more about these planes in the Players Guide to Faerūn. I have been thinking about this for some time now, and I have hypothesized 3 different models for how they might work. MODEL #1 - THE GEOGRAPHIC BORDER MODEL Under this model, Astral planes are tied to specfic geographic territory. Every geographic point on Toril is tied to one Astral and one Astral only. If you enter the Astral by spell, you go to the Astral for that land. Under this model, it seems it would be hard for deities from other lands to connect with their followers, I don't know if teleport would work and plane shift might not take you to the plane you want to go to. And if you died in the wrong land your soul would end up in the cosmology tied to that land. This also means that Ao or somebody has to decide where the geographic borders of the planes stop and start, and it doesn't account for what happens if worshippers or entire populations emigrate across those borders. I find this theory unsatisfactory for several of the above reasons. MODEL #2 - THE 4 LAYERS THEORY Under this model, the Astral actually has 4 layers and permeates everywhere. You can get to Kara-Tur's Spirit World from Maztica or Zakhara, and vice versa. The spell you use or the layer you name in the spell determines which layer of the Astral you enter into when you cast the spell. Gods can communicate to any of their followers throughout Realmspace without obstruction, and the souls of different faiths naturally seek the correct afterlife through astral conduits that whisk their spirits to the correct planes. I like this theory better, it seems to account for many discrepancies. Natives of each continent would not necessarily have reason to know the other Astrals are there, because the spells they have learned or are granted by their gods are keyed to the correct astral plane. They would have little cause to know the others existed, much less to travel there, however the other layers of the astral are accessible with the right knowledge. MODEL #3 - THE CELL PHONE THEORY I am quite enchanted with this model, although I haven't worked out all the details yet. This model is sort of halfway between the above two models. Under this model, the astrals work a little bit (for lack of an appropriate fantasy metaphor) like cell phone networks. Service areas are regional but may overlap. Accessability depends on your location with respect to the nearest "antenna tower" which in this case would be temples, shrines, dedicated holy places and population centers with sizable numbers of believers. There is some precedence with the rules in Faiths & Avatars and maybe Deities & Demigods to indicate that gods have special influence within a certain radius of their shrines and temples and holy relics. Using this theory, access to Kara-Tur's spirit world would be strong within the geographic territory of Kara-Tur, but would be more spotty along the border. But it might still be accessible in those areas where Kara-Turan travelers frequent ports and set up shrines, or along the paths that the Horde took when they invaded the West. Likewise, Maztica would be fairly inaccessible to the Faerūnian astral, except for those places where the clergy of Helm set up shrines in their recent explorations. Under this theory, the geographic borders are not set by divine mandate--Ao does not have to do any surveys or draw lines on a map. Rather the geographic borders are fluid and can change with population migration or as new shrines are built or fall out of maintenance. This theory also allows for geographic overlap so that when worshippers of different faiths cohabit the same territory, they can still access the appropriate astral for their religion. This third model has a submodel A and a submodel B: Under submodel A, the Faerunian astral is the default astral for the entire universe, and the pocket astrals are accessible only within their respective network areas. While in submodel B, all astrals are accessible only so far as a certain radius distance from where their shrines, holy sites, relics and poplations of belief or other nodes extend. I don't think it can be determined from the sourcebooks so far which of the above theories is correct. However I think it is an important question because the way the Astral works relates to other important mechanics such as Teleport spells, Plane Shift, Gate, Astral Projection, and important things like can a deity grant spells to a cleric on another continent and where souls go when they die.
Gray Richardson 06-02-05, 01:11 AM	We are familiar with the idea that gods can interlope into the FR cosmology from other universes. This includes gods like Oghma, Loviatar, Tyr and most all the racial pantheons. To do this they create clones or avatars or aspects or fragments of themselves that separate from the original godhead and take up residence in the Great Tree. From that point onwards the god is split in twain, with two separate identitities that begin to diverge and have separate mythical histories within the Great Tree and the Great Wheel or whatever universe they came from. Greyhawk Lolth is separate and distinct from the Lolth of Faerūn. So too is Faerūn's Oghma now different from the Oghma of the Wheel. Even though at some ancient time they used to be one. But how do we explain the occurence of two Demogorgons or Orcuses (Orci?) or double Zaphkiels or Morwels or Talisids? Fiend Lords and Celestial Paragons don't create avatars or fragment, do they? Here are some theories for consideration: 1) Parallel Evolution It has been suggested by Rich Baker that the Fiend Lords and Celestial Paragons of the Great Tree and the Great Wheel are like alternate history versions of each other, having evolved independently with the same name and abilities, but with different personal histories. This might be a little like the TV show Sliders or the Mirror Universe Star Trek episode. 2) Mythic Resonance Under this theory, these unique entities evolved duplicates in both universes not by random parallel evolution, but because some sort of fundamental cosmic principles, or a guiding force--perhaps resonating across all cosmologies--guided the evolution of duplicate beings named Demogorgon and two Morwels and Orcuses, etc. because these entities are axiomatic archetypes that simply must evolve again and again in most magic based cosmologies. 3) Namesakes In this theory, the archdevils, demon princes and celestial paragons have simply taken the names and forms of archetypal entities from the legends that have travelled from other cosmologies (namely the Great Wheel). This is perhaps a token of respect acknowledging the achievments of their predecessors. Or maybe these entities were forced for some reason to adopt these names and roles from another cosmology for the purpose of a passion-play style reenactment of cosmic events that played out long ago in another world. 4) Clones/Copies In this theory, Shar brought the fiends over from the Great Wheel sometime shortly after the begining of the universe in order to fight for her in the War of Light and Darkness between Shar and Selūne. She needed a way to strike out against Selūne and Chauntea for their betrayal against her in attempting to create a sun. She must have gotten the idea from visiting the Great Wheel, and so she either imported the fiends over from the Wheel or simply created copies of them in an act of cosmic copyright infringement, crafting her own demons and devils using the shapes of the Great Wheel fiends as a model. She would need archfiends to be her generals and run the armies, and so she pirated those as well--making exact copies in fact--of the Great Wheel archdevils and demon princes. Likewise Selūne made copies of the celestials and their rulers to fight with her against Shar. 5) Deific fragments of Shar Herself In this theory, Shar recruited mercenary fiends from the Abyss and Baator of the Great Wheel, and needing Generals to lead her armies. So she fragmented herself into avatars modeled on the guises of the archfiends. These avatars long ago forgot their origin and allegiance to Shar and believe themselves to be unique entities. Perhaps Shar even gave them the memories copied from their real fiend lord counterparts over on the Wheel. 6) Avatars: "I shall call him Mini-Orcus" This is the theory that I like the best. It is simply that fiend lords and celestial paragons, in the same way that they have the limited ability to grant spells and be worshipped similar to gods, also have a limited ability to create avatars under special circumstances--perhaps requiring the assistance of a god like Selūne or Shar, or with special dispensation from Ao. They in fact did split off such aspects back during the War of Light & Darkness, sending over mercenary armies from the Great Wheel at the request of Shar and Selūne, and sending fiendish and celestial avatars of themselves to oversee their armies and mind their interests in the new cosmology. Once established, they would not relinquish their newfound power in the Realms. They continued to stay long after the War of Light & Darkness had ended and began to reshape their planar realms into copies of the homeplanes they came from over on the Great Wheel. There is a hint in the Players Guide to Faerūn that the fiends originally called the FR plane of the Barrens of Doom & Despair home when they first came to the cosmology. But after the War of Light & Darkness ended they took to fighting amongst themselves, perpetuating the Blood War they left behind on the Great Wheel. The fiends drove the evil gods so crazy that they broke off that part of the Barrens to create the separate plane of the Blood Rift (and presumably the portions that became the Abyss and Baator) so that the fiends would leave the Barrens gods in relative peace and quiet.
Doctor_Jello 06-02-05, 02:32 AM	what if asmodeous is the world serpent. If you were to compare it to the book of righteousness, asmodeous was the first created and then cast into hell. *possible solution and what is bad is it fits into the story line of the forgotten realms, because dieties die. And there are uber dieties in the realms. All in all it depends on your DM. because what your DM says go. But there are an infinite solutions because this is in fact the land of make believe. Some of you may disagree with the possiblity of Asmodeous being the world serpent but if you read the BoVD it even states that no one has seen asmodeous real form and it is still quite possible nonetheless that he is in fact the world serpent.
Gray Richardson 06-02-05, 02:48 AM	There is actually a theory floating around, first broached as an ancient myth in the 2e Sourcebook Warriors of Heaven that Asmodeus (a.k.a. Ahriman) and Jazirian are two halves of the broken axis of Law. After they broke apart, Jazirian fell upwards to the peak of the Seven Heavens (in the FR cosmology part of the House of the Triad) and the blood from the wounds of the feathered serpent formed the couatls. While the myth says that Asmodeus fell down into the deepest crack in the deepest pit of the lowest layer of the Nine Hells, and the drops of his blood formed the devils. It could be that the two are both fragments of the World Serpent. Jazirian in the recent FR sourcebook Serpent Kingdoms is definitely established in FR canon as a World Serpent Fragment. Perhaps Asmodeus is too. It's a theory I am fond of. The World Serpent has had many aspects, and the story of some of those fragments is told in Serpent Kingdoms. :devil:
Zigra 06-02-05, 07:00 AM	Eh, I'd rather not bother with the whole "Twin Serpents of Law" story. It wasn't well recieved and most gamers and game designers alike who know of the alternative stories of Creation (the fragmentation of the World Serpent, the story of Io the Ninefold Dragon, etc.) don't even bother with it. Besides, Asmodeus' true form isn't anything vaguely reptilian, and the recent source material claims that there are no gods in the Nine Hells (which I imagine Asmodeus would have to be if he were a true World Serpent fragment).
ripvanwormer 06-02-05, 07:56 AM	what if asmodeous is the world serpent. The World Serpent is a being or archetype that encompasses all alignments. There are many gods who are aspects of the World Serpent, echoes or avatars of the original form; Asmodeus may be one of them. Jazirian, Shekinester, Merrshaulk, and other reptillian deities are explicitly said to be among the World Serpent's aspects.
ripvanwormer 06-02-05, 05:19 PM	If you were to compare it to the book of righteousness, asmodeous was the first created and then cast into hell. In the theology of Green Ronin's The Book of the Righteous, Asmodeus was the God of Fire, equal to the gods of Earth, Sky, and Water. In the Realms cosmology, it might make sense to say that Asmodeus was the original sun god created by Selune, corrupted by Shar in her rage. The fires of the sun ultimately became Baator's hellfire. In The Book of the Righteous, Asmodeus wasn't a serpent, just a titanic deity whose arms and legs were severed in a war with the other gods. The effect is much the same.
Zigra 06-02-05, 07:27 PM	what if asmodeous is the world serpent. If you were to compare it to the book of righteousness, asmodeous was the first created and then cast into hell. *possible solution and what is bad is it fits into the story line of the forgotten realms, because dieties die. And there are uber dieties in the realms. All in all it depends on your DM. because what your DM says go. But there are an infinite solutions because this is in fact the land of make believe. Some of you may disagree with the possiblity of Asmodeous being the world serpent but if you read the BoVD it even states that no one has seen asmodeous real form and it is still quite possible nonetheless that he is in fact the world serpent. You mean World Serpent fragment. He can't be the World Serpent because the WS has numerous non-evil aspects to it's being (meaning it must be true neutral) that still exist in the form of numerous scalyfolk gods.
Gray Richardson 06-02-05, 08:40 PM	While, if he is related to the World Serpent at all, he is more probably a fragment of the WS, rather than the World Serpent himself. However, I suppose there is the remote possibility that the World Serpent, having fragmented off the greater part of his being, spawning countless other deities, grew tired and somnolent and sought a crevice in which to hibernate at the bottom of the Nine Hells. The humanoid Asmodeus we are familiar with may just be an avatar that watches his interests while he dreams... I kind of like Jello's theory ;)
Zigra 06-02-05, 09:57 PM	Well, I don't, I'm afraid:( Asmodeus is far too active to be the "slumbering" World Serpent. We actually saw Asmodeus awake and actively ruling over the Hells in "Elminster in Hell". Plus, he's far too much the embodiement of the lawful evil alignment for me to buy into him being the entity that spawned all these other mult-aligned gods. I, for one, like Eric Boyd's "Scales of the World Serpent" idea. The World Serpent "transcended" it's being, in a sense, becoming it's own plane of existance where all of the gods that fragmented from it now dwell.
Gray Richardson 06-12-05, 01:42 PM	For those of you interested in more information regarding the signature plane of evil of the new Forgotten Realms cosmology, the Candle Keep Compendium volume 2 has just been released for free download from the Candlekeep site! This tome contains, among many other wonderful articles, an exploration of the plane of the Barrens of Doom and Despair from myself and such other notable scribes as Kuje and the Sage. My own humble contribution is a brief overview of the plane and some more detailed impressions of Beshaba's divine realm. It also includes a Map of the plane of the Barrens of Doom and Despair (of which I am quite proud. :D ) The Sage explores Hoar's divine realm. And our very own Kuje gives a detailed account of Talona's poisonous territory. Please follow this link to download Volume 2: http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/compendium.htm
Arilou_skiff 06-12-05, 02:35 PM	Well, I don't, I'm afraid:( Asmodeus is far too active to be the "slumbering" World Serpent. We actually saw Asmodeus awake and actively ruling over the Hells in "Elminster in Hell". Plus, he's far too much the embodiement of the lawful evil alignment for me to buy into him being the entity that spawned all these other mult-aligned gods. I, for one, like Eric Boyd's "Scales of the World Serpent" idea. The World Serpent "transcended" it's being, in a sense, becoming it's own plane of existance where all of the gods that fragmented from it now dwell. But Asmodeus is notably inactive. He has a few spread cults, but he seldom seem to *do* much beyond keeping the Status Quo. He doesen't interfere with the Blood War much and mostly just intervenes to keep the other Lords of the Nine's plotting in line. Most of the "diabolical plans" in fact seems to originate on the levels just below Asmodeus himself... Of course, that might just be what he wants you to think!
Zigra 06-12-05, 08:37 PM	Sorry, I just don't buy this out-of-left-field "Asmodeus is the World Serpent" theory. A fragment, maybe (and even that's pretty iffy, considering the "Twin Serpents of Law" concept has been mostly ignored since it's original development). But the true World Serpent itself? Words don't describe the unlikeliness of it. The World Serpent was either a true neutral deity, or a deity of all alignments at once (like Io the Ninefold Dragon). It had evil aspects, as well as good and neutral ones, but was not fully evil. Plus, all of the deities that fragmented from the WS are still connected to it, and the WS grants spells and recieves power from all of these fragments. Therefore, what those fragmented deities represent is still a part of the WS's being. Besides, the World Serpent is a confirmed god, and WotC seems to have kept up with the idea that there are no true gods in the FR Nine Hells.
Gray Richardson 12-02-05, 01:33 AM	Tom Costa has some wonderful insights into the Untheric plane of Zigguraxus and how it might look if a plane is in the process of becoming "lost." I especially like his idea about how Tiamat fled the plane and took her whole realm with her, along with all its petitioners, leaving just a big empty void where her divine realm used to be. Anyway, Tom's version of Zigguraxas can be found on p.26 in his Prestige in the Realms (http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/prestige_classes.html) supplement available for download at this link here: http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/prestige_classes.html I should mention that in addition to Zigguraxus the supplement is chock full of cool Realms specific prestige classes, feats, magic items, equipment, regions, divine domains, spells, variant classes, a couple of new animals for your familiar/companion needs. And did I mention lore? Lots of really great Realmslore to add flavor to your campaign. :)
Valgard 12-02-05, 05:31 AM	Anyway, Tom's version of Zigguraxas can be found on p.26 in his Prestige in the Realms (http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/prestige_classes.html) supplement available for download at this link here: http://www.ericlboyd.com/dnd/prestige_classes.html Where did you hide that, Gray? This doc is f:censored:g awesome. I have seen many 'amateur' prestige classes, but those are worthy to have their own official sourcebook themselves. Tell Tom he is a genious. HURRAY FOR THE CANDLEKEEP COMPENDIUM SCRIBES! :cheer: :ayyyy!:
Gray Richardson 12-14-05, 02:14 AM	The Candlekeep Compendium Volume IV (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/index.htm) is just out. This issue is all about dragons in the Realms. In it is an article I wrote on the Plane of Dragon Eyrie: the plane of the draconic afterlife in the Realms. It has a map of the plane, and some lore and history regarding the divine realms of the dragon pantheon, including the gods Hlal, Task, Null and Tiamat. Also in this issue: a really great timeline and history of the Reign of Dragons, dragon gods, Wyrms of the East, interesting NPC's of the Realms, Draconic adventure hooks, the Serpent Queen of the East, a fascinating article on dwarves & dragons and why it is that dragons so often lair in dwarven holds, everything you wanted to know about pseudodragons in the Realms, and draconic themed spellbooks. And there is a nifty introduction by Richard Lee Byers to boot. And its all for free! Check it out here: http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/index.htm
Gray Richardson 01-01-06, 03:32 AM	With a single remark over on the Candlekeep website Ed Greenwood just sent shivers through my spine. In a comment about Larloch's motivations comparing him with Jergal (the ancient god of the Dead who stepped down from the job, relinquishing his power to Myrkul, Bhaal and Bane an age ago) Ed intimates that Jergal may indeed have had a hidden motivation beyond mere ennui for abdicating his role as god of the Dead and Dusk: You’re quite correct in thinking Larloch feels few challenges, these days, but you’re misreading him and Jergal, both of whom (as will soon be revealed) are playing quite separate but deeper games. Think of my constant comments about Elminster manipulating people. Now, if you were incredibly powerful and had been around for centuries, what sort of entertainment would you seek?I wonder if this ties in somehow to events that will be revealed in March's Power of Faerūn sourcebook, or maybe an upcoming novel, or some project in the works for 2007. Who knows how this will all shake out, but Ed says it will soon be revealed. It has set my mind all awhirl and no doubt has implications for the unfolding history of the planes.
ripvanwormer 01-01-06, 11:10 AM	Maybe he was talking about Eric Boyd's adaptation of the Age of Worms adventure path, and just didn't realize it had already been revealed.
LucyWanabe 01-01-06, 11:16 AM	Wow...this thread is a fantastic wealth of information. I just read the entire thing in one sitting, and I am beyond impressed. It makes me see just how little I know about the planar side of things in Toril--but it has reinforced my love for the Tree Cosmology, and at the same time increased my respect for the Wheel. Keep up the good work! :cool:
Gray Richardson 01-26-06, 01:41 AM	Faiths & Pantheons says that Lurue is a daughter of Selūne. My current theory about Lurue is that she is a fragment of Mystryl. Or perhaps Mystryl is a fragment of Lurue. Specifically, I think Mystryl and Lurue are both aspects of the original deity of Magic (made from the essence of magic torn from Selūne and Shar in their War of Light and Darkness.) I think Mystryl was the aspect that humans worshipped, while Lurue may have been the incarnation of magic for the Fey pantheon. Over time, as the influence of the Fey races waned from Toril, and Lurue became a part of the greater Faerūnian pantheon, Lurue would not have been able to hold on to the portfolio of magic, so she would have to merge with Mystryl or settle into a lesser role of patron of magical beasts. For a metagame context, we know that way back in the beginning of the Realms, Ed envisaged Lurue as the original goddess of magic, but TSR wanted a more human goddess to govern magic, so Ed created Mystra, leaving Lurue more of a mystery. We don't know too much about the Fey creator race, but I would bet Lurue played a prominent role in their pantheon, and would have made a great guardian of the Weave.
Purple Dragon Knight 01-26-06, 01:27 PM	Order of creation of the planes, IMHO: 1- Elemental; 2- Ethereal; 3- Prime; 4- Outer; 5- Astral; 6- Outer (as the mortals dream up the first gods, Shar and Selune) 7- Reshaping and diversification of the outer planes and the gods prolifered and evolved...
Gray Richardson 01-26-06, 08:16 PM	Could be. I have been toying with a slightly different model based on the Tree metaphor and extrapolating from the creation myth from Faiths & Avatars. The Shadow Plane is connected to every universe, so I see it as the soil in which the tree is planted. Lord Ao, newly risen to overgodhood (or perhaps as part of a ritual to ascend to overgod status) seeks out an empty plot of deep Shadow, far from the bustling paths trod by older and more settled cosmologies. He finds a quiet place to work his creation. There he plants an Astral Seed in the fertile soil of Shadow, and a tiny Astral plane sprouts forth. Extending a tentative shoot upwards, the sprout supports a single bud. The petals of the bud soon unfold, blossoming into a cosmic flower with brilliant petals of fiery red, aqua blue, loamy brown, cloudy white, sable black and vibrant yellow, the elemental and energy planes. Nestled within its petals a crystal fruit grows, containing at first only a wispy Ethereal Plane. But with time, as the fruit ripens, structures form within the Ethereal and resolve into a full born Material Plane. From this small sapling, the astral soon branches off into Outer Planes. Its astral xylem forms and strengthens the structure of the Tree. While the astral phloem conducts the nourishing belief and souls from the Material Plane to the leaves of the Outer Planes. Gates of the Moon is the first leaf, the celestial home of the first goddess of light (her twin sister makes her home in Shadow). The second leaf is The House of Nature, where the First Child, Chauntea abides. Many more leaves soon grow and branch off from more established limbs. As the seasons pass, some leaves of the Outer Planes wither, die and fall away from the Tree. But new planes soon grow to take their place. Anyway, that is a myth and a metaphor that appeals to me. It is an origin which seems to suit the dynamic and organic nature of the Great Tree cosmology of Faerūn.
Gray Richardson 01-26-06, 08:41 PM	Thinking more on the gods of the Fey creator race: I think we can point to Shiallia also as coming from the Fey pantheon. She is after all a korred. Well, I guess as an alternative, it is possible she could have been an ascended korred who came to be worshipped by humans in the North. But I think it more appropriate if she were an ancient and far older goddess, worshipped at the time when the Fey were ascendant in the North some 35,000 years ago. Powers & Pantheons says Shiallia is the daughter of Tapann, another korred deity, so that puts Tapann in the Fey pantheon as well. Furthermore, her entry mentions that she is the sister of the Tree Ghost, the collective spirit of the High Forest, and also one of the Uthgardt tribal spirits. I had wondered if the Tree Ghost was perhaps an aspect of Emmantiensien, although per Mintper's Chapbook (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20010829h), the Grandfather Tree is an arakhor--sort of a tree elemental, or elder treant, perhaps the progenitors of the modern treant race. Click on this link for more info: Grandfather Tree (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20010829h) It is likely that Emmantiensien, the god of treants, was worshipped as part of the Fey pantheon also, and there is lore to support that he persists as the celestial World Tree that ties many of the celestial planes together. I wonder if Relkath of the Infinite Branches from the ancient Yuir pantheon might be a fragment of Emmantiensien? Or perhaps Relkath could be an ascended treant? Or even another Arakhor. (can plants have beast lords?) Likewise, Magnar the Bear seems like he might have been an animal spirit, or a beast lord. Might he have had ties to the Fey pantheon? He could have also been an ascended wearbear, or an ursinal. Perhaps an ancient companion of Talisid? If so, he might have simply ranked as a celestial paragon, and not truly a divine power. Unless of course, through worship, a paragon can become elevated to deific status. Magnar may or may not have also had a connection with Balador (a god of werebears). It is unclear how many of the Faerie deities from Monstrous Mythology were ever a part of the Fey pantheon of Faerūn. Eachtighern is specifically ruled out in Powers & Pantheons (in the Lurue entry) as not having a presence on Toril. Lurue trumps Eachtighern. While Tom Costa suggests that Nathair Sgiathach (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=413506), god of pseudo and faerie dragons may actually be an aspect of Hlal, the draconic god of wit and play and mischief. I am still looking for lore to support the existence of Skerrit and Verenestra within current continuity. The Fey creator race deserves a little fleshing out. I hope the Realms team will explore some of their mysteries in future projects. :g:
ripvanwormer 01-27-06, 01:43 AM	Malar is said to be related to the gods of nature in some undefined way. He seems to be a corrupted version of Cernunnos, which might make him a schism of Silvanus or Oberon of the fey (or both, or a schism from some primal ancestor of them all).
ripvanwormer 01-27-06, 01:45 AM	The Shadow Plane is connected to every universe, so I see it as the soil in which the tree is planted. Gates of the Moon is the first leaf, the celestial home of the first goddess of light (her twin sister makes her home in Shadow). Don't forget that the Gates of the Moon connect to as many worlds as Shadow does, via the Infinite Staircase. Perhaps the Staircase is the true soil from which sprout the multiversal trees.
Gray Richardson 01-27-06, 03:13 AM	Malar is said to be related to the gods of nature in some undefined way. He seems to be a corrupted version of Cernunnos, which might make him a schism of Silvanus or Oberon of the fey (or both, or a schism from some primal ancestor of them all).I could totally see Malar as part of the Fey pantheon back in the day. Especially serving in an adversary role. He was around before the Seldarine civil war, as he was recruited by Lolth in Evermeet to fight on her side against Corellon. This puts Malar back at least as far back as -30,000 DR. Auril, another of the gods of Fury, like Malar was enticed by Lolth to fight against Corellon. Malar had no need to be corrupted--he was easily convinced to munch on elf gods. But Auril appears to have been more good or at least a neutral deity back then: a gentler goddess of winter once upon a time. Auril had ties to Arvandor. I don't know if she lived there, but she was responsible for bringing winter to Arvandor. After the civil war, Auril was kicked out of Arvandor, same as Lolth. Auril appears to be a Faerūnian equivalent of the Horae, or spirit of the seasons. I half way wonder if she wasn't perhaps originally a fragment of one of the Greek Horae interloped over with Tyche. Xarpo or Arktos perhaps? Malar and Auril are two of the gods of Fury, led by Talos, the original god of Destruction and Nature's Fury. Talos (aka Kozah, aka Bhaelros) was born from the War of Light and Darkness between Shar and Selūne. Shar, who felt betrayed by Selūne & Chauntea conspiring to create a sun, lashed out by trying to extinguish life within Realmspace. Whether Talos was simply a byproduct concept of the War, or was used actively by Shar as an instrument of her wrath, is unknown. But he came to represent sheer destruction and nature clashing against life and itself. I suspect that it was during the War of Light & Darkness, or shortly afterwards, that the plane of Fury's Heart was ripped from or branched off of the plane of the House of Nature. It was in Fury's Heart that Talos and the other gods of Fury would settle. Sort of an evil version of the House of Nature. Malar's origin is unknown, but he could possibly be another of the Fell Forces spawned in the War. Although I tend to think of him as second generation--somebody's son. Most probably the son of Chauntea with Talos, or the god of Death, or War, or Murder. Given the circumstances, it may not have been a consensual pairing. Chauntea suffered from many ravages in the War, and the birth of Malar was likely the result of one of them. Since the Fey creator race is both native and nature based, it seems likely that the Fey knew aspects of Talos and Malar, although perhaps not by those names or by the visages familiar to human pantheons. It is possible those gods were known to the Sylvan folk by different names and looks.
Gray Richardson 01-27-06, 03:31 AM	Don't forget that the Gates of the Moon connect to as many worlds as Shadow does, via the Infinite Staircase. Perhaps the Staircase is the true soil from which sprout the multiversal trees.Ah, but the Infinite Staircase ties to all the cities of the multiverse. It's architectural meme suggests that it came later. The Gates of the Moon certainly predates civilization. It existed with the First Life, prior even to the Sun. Surely the Staircase grew--or was built--no earlier than the first city was built in the Realms? Maybe it was constructed by a god of Architecture. Does anyone have the portfolio of Architecture in the Realms? Hmmm... maybe Imhotep? Did he come over with the Mulan gods? Perhaps Imhotep built the Stair in an attempt to bypass the Imaskari planar seals. He hoped to lead his people back to Egypt on Earth. That could make for an interesting story... Imhotep became so entranced with his sublime work, so mesmerized by what he had achieved, that he kept right on building it. Extending the infinite staircase to every city in the multiverse. He became lost among its countless steps, forever building and building. Sometimes you can still hear the distant sound of hammers on the stair. Perhaps this explains in part why, having exceeded his goal, he still failed to liberate his people, and his name is forgotten in Mulhorand.
Purple Dragon Knight 01-27-06, 08:27 AM	I like it Gray! very similar to something I came up with two years ago! :D May I suggest an addition to the following:There he plants an Astral Seed in the fertile soil of Shadow, and a tiny Astral plane sprouts forth. Extending a tentative shoot upwards, the sprout supports a single bud. The petals of the bud soon unfold, blossoming into a cosmic flower with brilliant petals of fiery red, aqua blue, loamy brown, cloudy white, sable black and vibrant yellow, the elemental and energy planes.I like the petal idea for the inner planes, but the petals could represent the planes of air and fire [edit: wind and sun], while the plane of earth and water could be the 'fertilizer' and the 'water' that nourishes the Plane of Shadow soil: as the tree grows, its root goes deeper than the initial Plane of Shadow 'topsoil' and the roots end up tapping in the plane of earth and water themselves... :) Edit: you could also have the plane of water represented as the rain most plants require to survive, and the plane of earth represented by the dead leaves that ultimately fertilize the tree then revert to Plane of Shadow 'topsoil'
ripvanwormer 01-27-06, 11:43 AM	Ah, but the Infinite Staircase ties to all the cities of the multiverse. It's architectural meme suggests that it came later. The Gates of the Moon certainly predates civilization. It existed with the First Life, prior even to the Sun. Surely the Staircase grew--or was built--no earlier than the first city was built in the Realms? If Shar and Selune are coequal, their realms ought to be as well: both of them alternate paths to everywhen. Because the Infinite Staircase connects to far more than just the Forgotten Realms, it isn't tethered to Realms history. It has existed since the first city was built anywhere, since the first Words expressed a creative thought. When the phirblas were putting down the foundations of infinite Inphirblau long before the City of Doors was even a dream in the Lady of Pain's pointy little mind, the Staircase was there. When the Silver City was built in the void of pre-creation by the precursors of the celestials, the Staircase was there. When the fires of Muspell awakened the frozen cow Audumla in the fogs of Ginnungagap, the Infinite Staircase was already there. The Staircase was there long before Ao thought of bringing order to barren phlogiston. When Selune awakened in the emptiness of wildspace, she stretched out her hands and the Staircase came to her; she built her realm around its gates. When Shar awakened by her side, she stretched out her hands, and in flowed the tides of Shadow from which she created her own domain.
Gray Richardson 01-27-06, 06:03 PM	I am intrigued, Rip! You make some very good points! I totally agree with you that the Staircase has existed since the first city anywhere, and the Realms appears to be a younger crystal sphere than others. So certainly I agree that the stair predates the creation of the universe by Ao. But I am not completely sold on the idea that the Stair attached to the Realms from the very beginning. I am thinking it would naturally attach after the first city was built. Or maybe the first structure. I am having trouble buying into the idea that when Selūne first wakes she called out for the Stair. How would she have known to reach out for the staircase? I mean, your body resolves from ethereal mists at the dawn of time, and the first thing you do is summon a staircase from outside the universe? But the images are strong and poignant, I grant you that... Hey, how about this? Shar begins the War of Light & Darkness by bringing in fiendish mercenaries from outside the cosmology (see earlier posts in thread for these theories). Shar can do this because her realm in Shadow is accessible not only to the Great Tree but also all the other alternate universes out there. So Shar brings in nasty recruits and lays waste to the First Life in Realmspace. Selūne and Chauntea are caught unawares and suffer badly from Shar's attack. So in desperation, Selūne seeks her own counsel from outside the cosmology. Ao is curiously absentee at this point in history. Unless of course it was Ao who told Selūne to go beyond to seek help. But Shadow is at first the only way to access other universes. And Shar has that blockaded or prehaps is the only one of them who knows Shadow's secrets. So maybe Selūne begins to build the stair as her own method to go get help from beyond. We know she eventually linked up with Oghma who appears to have advised Selūne on how to defend against her sister and who also facilitated bringing in Eladrin and Archon aid to preserve the side of Light. Or perhaps she calls out in anguish and Oghma hears her and comes to her aid, bringing the staircase with him. The staircase unfolds from the sky, and down marches Oghma with a retinue of Archons and Eladrin and otrher goodly troops. I think it works well if Oghma was somehow responsible for connecting the Infinite Staircase to the Gates of the Moon, as he is the god of civilization, a god of ideas and inspiration, and a god of knowledge and science. And while he doesn't necessarily have architecture as a portfolio, he certainly numbers more architects among his worshippers than any other god in the Realms (well... except maybe Gond.)
ripvanwormer 01-27-06, 07:02 PM	But I am not completely sold on the idea that the Stair attached to the Realms from the very beginning. I am thinking it would naturally attach after the first city was built. Or maybe the first structure. The Staircase is attracted not only by cities, but by any site of great creativity. Look at Tales From the Infinite Staircase, page 10: "The different stairways that make up the Infinite Staircase reach out like grasping hands to wherever creative endeavor is exercised - painters, writers, dancers, poets, architects, sculptors, singers, musicians, planners, and designers of all sorts attract the Staircase, and it roots a connection close to wherever they can be found. Thus, almost all cities (with very few exceptions) have a connection to the Infinite Staircase. However, sometimes a lone figure in the wilderness can draw the Staircase as well." [Emphasis mine] I am having trouble buying into the idea that when Selūne first wakes she called out for the Stair. How would she have known to reach out for the staircase? As I intimated with the quote above, it wasn't her decision - it was the Staircase's. Selune and Shar awoke in the void of pre-creation, and they decided to make something. That creative spirit was enough to draw down the Infinite Staircase. In fact, I'd even say that it's impossible to create anything as vast as a universe without drawing the Infinite Staircase's attention. Nothing inherent in the Infinite Staircase's nature binds it to man-made constructions. It appears in cities because cities can support a lot of creative types. But creating an entire cosmology, or half of it, has got to be as impressive as anything all the artisans of Waterdeep can manage. Selune and Shar awake. Selune is full of the urge to create; she stretches out her arms, unfolding her demiurgic power, and the Staircase comes, opening a pathway to other worlds. Silver light hits Shar, who casts a dark shadow. This shadow, as all shadows do, flows into the Plane of Shadow, opening a pathway to other worlds. The Plane of Shadow alone can create nothing. Shadow is only a reflection, an echo. It's passive; shadows flow into it, not out. But in combination with the pure creativity of the Infinite Staircase, a universe can unfold. This is what Shar and Selune represent. Hey, how about this? Shar begins the War of Light & Darkness by bringing in fiendish mercenaries from outside the cosmology (see earlier posts in thread for these theories). Shar can do this because her realm in Shadow is accessible not only to the Great Tree but also all the other alternate universes out there. So Shar brings in nasty recruits and lays waste to the First Life in Realmspace. Selune responds by calling forth celestial freedom-fighters from outside the cosmology. Selune can do this because her realm in the Gates of the Moon is accessible, through the Infinite Staircase, not only to the Great Tree but also all the other alternate universes out there. So Selune brings in heroic recruits to defend the First Life. Perhaps Oghma helps her do this, perhaps not. Selune herself is more than sufficiently creative and inspiring (the inspiration of the primal Muse, divine inspiration tinged with divine madness) to draw the Staircase on her own, and the Stair has no direct connection with civilization or even architecture.
Gray Richardson 01-28-06, 10:31 AM	Rip, I love your ideas! Very compelling! Whether it arrived with the waking of Selūne or whether it connected to the Gates of the Moon when she sought aid from beyond at the start of the War of Light & Darkness, either way an early origin for the Infinite Staircase puts Selūne on equal footing with Shar with regards to access to help from other universes. By her affinity with Shadow, Shar had access and could easily be influenced by and receive help from evil forces from beyond. This allowed her to recruit demons, devils and other fiends from outside the cosmos to prosecute her war--thereby giving those fiendish races purchase in the Realms. (And Australia thought rabbits and cane toads were bad; just imagine your garden infested with nalfeshnees and vrocks...) Whereas the Stair allows Selūne equal access to the beyond. By means of the Infinite Staircase, Selūne could meet and receive the wise counsel of Oghma and recruit archons and eladrins to fight against Shar's troops and bring over guardinals to protect Chauntea. I love it!
Gray Richardson 01-29-06, 10:46 AM	I am very stoked about the forthcoming book by Lisa Smedman Vanity's Brood (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/frnovel/954647400), third in her excellent House of Serpents triolgy, which promises to reveal information about the planar home of the scalyfolk gods: Smaragd (http://www.wizards.com/books/downloads/products_frnovel_954647400.zip). Ever since Serpent Kingdoms (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/fracc/965660000) came out, I have long wondered where the scalyfolk gods called kip. Vanity's Brood has the long awaited answers. WotC has posted a sample chapter (http://www.wizards.com/books/downloads/products_frnovel_954647400.zip) online which describes a little of the environment of Smaragd and which ends with a helluva cliffhanger. It may just leave you with a gargantuan viper-sized hunger to read the rest of the book which comes out in March. ;) http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/frnovel/954647400
Gray Richardson 10-15-06, 02:47 AM	I have been thinking much about the Jhaamdathan pantheon lately. We have had some great conversations about it in such threads as these: Other Pre-Faerunian Human Pantheons (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=623062) and The Jhaamdathan Pantheon (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5845) and Who is Melith? (http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=717171) We know from Faiths & Pantheons that before the Dawn Cataclysm there was no unified Faerunian pantheon. There existed multiple human pantheons separated by geographic regions. The four major pantheons were the Netherese Pantheon (Anauroch region, not a desert back in the day) , the Talfiric Pantheon (Western Heartlands), the Coramshite Pantheon (Calimport region) and the Jhaamdathan Pantheon (Vilhon Reach and Sea of Stars) of which we know very little. We know of other minor human pantheons as well, such as the pantheon of the ancient Rus peoples, and the pantheon of the humans of the Yuir. Presumably there were many other minor human pantheons. I was somewhat inspired by the Melith discussion above to think on the Jhaamdath pantheon some more. I have been trying to reconstruct the Jhaamdath pantheon, and it occured to me that if Melith was the god of creativity and inspiration of the Jhaamdathan pantheon (as George Krashos suggested) then, since the Jhaamdathan culture was so concerned with psionics, then Melith might very well have held the portfolio of the psionic discipline of Meta-Creativity, in addition to his other artly concerns. From there it occured to me that the Jhaamdathan's might very well have had gods who held the portfolios of the other five psionic disciplines as well. The six disciplines in total were: Telepathy, Psychokinesis, Psychometabolism, Psychoportation, Meta-creativity, and Clairsentience. From there I began to match the six disciplines each to a god that I surmise might have both been in the Jhaamdathan Pantheon and that seems to comport with the sensibility of the respective discipline. To recap a bit, my current assumption is that the grandady of the Jhaamdathan pantheon is Oghma, god of knowledge, who by Mystryl (mother of magic) bore Auppenser, the god of psionics (which, like the Art and the Power is something of a third branch of magic in the Realms). My current theory (fleshed out in the threads linked above) is that Eldath was the wife/consort of Auppenser, and that back in the day she used to be more of a sea goddess, associated with travel and commerce along the Sea of Fallen Stars. Eldath of course is no longer much of a sea goddess, having lost that position to Umberlee with the consolidation of the Faerunian Pantheon during the Dawn Cataclysm. But back in the day, in Jhaamdath, she was pretty important as a goddess of maritime concerns and peaceful trade. I imagine she would have been especially worshipped in the port city of Jhouram, one of the Twelve Cities of the Sword. I assume also that this city's Udoxias was aligned to the psionic discipline of Psychoportation. As a goddess of sea travel, Eldath very probably held the portfolio of the psionic discipline of Psychoportation, among her many other concerns. Okay, well if Eldath had Psychoportation, and Melith had Meta-Creativity, then that just leaves Telepathy, Psychokinesis, Psychometabolism and Clairsentience to divide up. My current theory is that Murdane (goddess of pragmatism and reason) is the daughter of Eldath and Auppenser. I feel strongly that she would have held either the portolio of Telepathy, or perhaps Clairsentience. One of the other definitive Jhaamdathi gods that has been mentioned is Valigan Thirdborn (god of anarchy). For various reasons it has been speculated that he is perhaps the third child of Auppenser and Eldath, younger brother to Murdane. (We don't know this for sure, he could certainly be an ascended mortal and have no relation to Auppenser, but we are just trying to connect the dots here). As a god of Anarchy and Strife, if Valigan held the portfolio of a psionic discipline it might be Psychometabolism (the discipline most related to fighting and to the Psychic Warrior class). Of course, you could make a strong argument that the portfolio of Psychometabolism was instead held by Garagos, the Jhaamdathi god of War. And if so, then Valigan might have alternatively held Psychokinesis. But just assuming for the moment that Auppenser and Eldath had 5 kids and that those kids each held one of the portfolios of the 5 remaining psionic disciplines, that gives us Murdane (Telepathy or Clairsentience), Valigan (Psychometabolism, or perhaps Psychokinesis), and Melith (definitely Meta-Creativity). To flesh out the family, I speculate that Waukeen falls between Murdane and Valigan. We know she is a goddess of trade that was very popular around the Lake of Steam area, right on the border of Jhaamdath and Coramshan, where trade and commerce between the nations was blossoming and the trade language of Thorass (ancient common) had its origins. Waukeen might have held either Telepathy (she was a goddess of communication and contracts, and as such a goddess of the meeting of the minds) or possibly Clairsentience (scoping out the market and your competitor, trying to discern how a favorable outcome to negotiations might be arrived at.) That's 4 kids. Murdane, Waukeen, Valigan and Melith. That leaves a 5th portfolio to assign. Very intriguing. Perhaps there was a 5th child, unknown, that held the slot. Perhaps Mask? Psychokinesis seems like it could jive very well with thievery. Garagos? Well, if you gave him Psychometabolism (because it is favored of Psychic Warriors) then I suppose Valigan could take up Psychokinesis, and then Auppenser and Eldath might have had only 4 sons, or Garagos might have been their child too, in which case that might make for some interesting mythology if the goddess of Peace gave birth to the god of War. It occurs to me also that the Red Knight might also fit the bill. If you gave the Red Knight Clairsentience, then that might make the Red Knight a very intriguing god of strategy and spying. Although there is strong evidence that Red Knight is a relatively recently ascended human, and might not have been around back in the days of Jhaamdath. Liira is yet another god that I do not have assigned to any other human proto-pantheon. She might fit in well as the 5th child of Auppenser and Eldath. As a god of joy and the dance, I think the portfolio of Psychokinesis might fit her very well. As far as the planes are concerned: Auppenser, as a god of magic, had his divine realm in Mystryl's plane of Dweomertor (as Dweomerheart was known prior to the Dawn Cataclysm). Murdane, Waukeen, and Melith had their realms in their grandfather's plane--Oghama's House of Knowledge--which was apparently primarily associated with the Jhaamdathi pantheon. Murdane was killed in the Dawn Cataclysm. Melith later became known as Milil, who still has his realm to this day in the House of Knowledge with Oghma. Waukeen's Marketplace Eternal was later moved from the House of Knowledge to Brightwater by Liira after the Time of Troubles, during Waukeen's long imprisonment by the demon prince Gra'azt. Come to think of it, if Liira was Waukeen's sister, that would be a good explanation why she was granted custody of Waukeen's portfolios and her domain. Okay. Things are falling into place. My current theory is that the Jhaamdathan Pantheon consisted of: Oghma (originally a celtic god who interloped during the War of Light & Darkness to help out Selune and Chauntea against Shar) Silvanus (another celtic interloper who probably came over with Oghma to help out Chauntea, possibly transpantheonic himself) Mystryl (transpantheonic goddess of the Weave who had a place in all pantheons) Jergal (transpantheonic god of Death) Garagos (god of war, perhaps a fragment of the original god of war created in the War of Light & Darkness) Helm (duty, guardians, protection, and lover of Murdane) Auppenser (god of psionics, son of Oghma and Mystryl) Eldath (sea goddess; Psychoportation) and their 5 children: Murdane (pragmatism & reason; Clairsentience) Waukeen (trade & communication; Telepathy) Valigan (anarchy & strife; Psychometabolism) Liira (joy, dancing; Psychokinesis) Melith (creativity & inspiration; Meta-Creativity -- later came to be known as Milil) Other possible gods of Jhaamdath (nothing to confirm or rule out either way): Talona (transpantheonic goddess of disease, arose during the War of Light & Darkness) Haask (lost god, possibly known to Jhaamdath, possibly even more ancient) Camnod (lost god, possibly known to Jhaamdath, possibly even more ancient) Tyranthraxus (lost god, possibly a unique fiend lord, possibly known to Jhaamdath, possibly even more ancient) Borem (god of Anger, numbered among the ancient lost gods, possibly known to Jhaamdath, possibly even more ancient) Maram (lost god, possibly known to Jhaamdath, possibly even more ancient) and possibly: Mask -- although my current thinking is that Mask comes down to us from the ancient Rus pantheon, same as Shaundakul, since his worship is very prominent in Thesk. Mask also has that Loki thing going on, which seems very Rus, although that is meta-game thinking, and shouldn't impact on his pantheon of origin. There are probably many other Jhaamdathi gods whose names are lost to time and who we may never come to know. All other known gods seem to have their place in other proto-human pantheons.
Gray Richardson 10-29-06, 11:18 PM	We were having a cool conversation about the Plane of Faerie over at this link at Candlekeep: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8069 This prompted me to do some serious thinking about the plane of Faerie, The Spirit Plane of Kara-Tur and the nature of the Astral Plane in the Realms Cosmology. My current theory is that the Spirit World of Kara-Tur and the Plane of Faerie may be connected somehow. Possibly they were once, or even still are currently, the same plane. We know (from Serpent Kingdoms and other sources) that there is a plane of Faerie that is loosely connected to Faerun. It used to be strongly connected to Faerun, but has become less so over the ages. We know that the Sylvan creator race has retreated somewhat from Faerun to rule Faerie. The fey folk are still around in the woodlands and secret places of Faerun. Although they never dominated the continent as other creator races have, they did once have a great civilization in Faerun that appears to have been decimated and fragmented by a horrible plague many thousands of years ago (see the history section of the FRCS). This plague was possibly instigated by demons or dragons. Since that time the fey folk have diminished in Faerun. The plane of Faerie, as well as the Spirit Plane of Kara-Tur are both detailed in the Manual of the Planes. The plane of Faerie is said to be a unique outer plane that is coexistant with the material plane and has some features of a transitive plane (see Manual of the Planes). There are strong similarities between the plane of Faerie and the Spirit Plane of Kara-Tur, which is said in the Players Guide to Faerun to serve in the place of the Astral Plane in Kara-Tur. We know that the Astral Plane is a plane of mind and spirit. The Faerunian Astral looks a lot like a silver void. Sort of an outer-space, geometric, Dr. Strange-esque astral plane. But the way the astral looks may be entirely due to the unique (collective) mindview of the Sarrukh, the Batrachi, and human kind. But the Sylvan peoples (and possibly the elves as well) have an alien mindset. The power of their worldview may have created an alternate conception of the Astral Plane, a more naturalistic astral. One that looks like a woodland setting. Perhaps this is the reason for the bifurcate Astral Planes. I don't know if these are separate Astrals, or merely alternate layers of the same Astral Plane. It wasn't previously thought that the Astral had layers, but no reason it couldn't. This might go far to explain the different Astral Planes mentioned in the PGtF. They could all be layers of the same Astral plane. This would fit with the Tree Metaphor, where a cross-section of a tree-trunk reveals layers or growth-rings. According to this theory, the plane of Faerie is the Sylvan conception of the Astral Plane. It used to extend all over Toril, wherever the Fey Folk dwelled. The Spirit Plane of Kara-Tur may be an extension of the plane of Faerie. It may still be the default Astral for Kara-Tur because the fey races have long had a strong presence in Kara-Tur with les influence from the Sarrukh, the Batrachi and even humans, who are rather recent imigrants to Kara-Tur, not having a presence in Kara-Tur much before 3,000 years ago or so. Even the humans of Kara-Tur seem to have a more naturalistic mindset, many of them are animists. Their religions may be more harmonious with Sylvan philosophies, so that may explain why the Spirit World version of the Astral still persists to this day in Kara-Tur. This leads me to wonder: if one could enter the Spirit World of Kara-Tur and travel westward towards the part that overlaps Faerun, would you run into Faerie? If they are not currently connected, might they have been the same plane in the past? Is the Spirit World of Kara-Tur merely the eastern reaches of the Plane of Faerie. You could consolidate this lore with something Ed Greenwood has mentioned in his replies over at Candlekeep, that he uses (or at least used to use) an astral plane that was something like the Wood Between the World from the Narnia Chronicles. In that version you travel through a portal to a vast wood with may quiet silver ponds. Each pool is an entrance to another plane. This is a lot like the silver pools of the regular astral, except that they are realized as actual pools of water in a woodland setting. Perhaps Ed's concept of the Wood Between the Worlds is actually part of Faerie, which is in turn the Sylvan conception of the Astral plane. In the conversation over at Candlekeep, we also talked about the Fey Crossroads and Backroads which may pass through Faerie and may allow some fey and druids to access Faerie through them. I hope we see this lore developed in future products. There may be some new lore about Fey Crossroads in the Twilight Tomb adventure coming out soon.
Jiggawha 10-30-06, 04:38 AM	:clap: Gray, I have to say what I've used in one adventure, plane of Faerie was a planar bridge between Material Plane and the House of Nature, so this plane was like spiritual/woodland Astral Plane but the portals there (feyroads) existed only between the Prime and the House of Nature, of course with the withdrawal of sylvan races from Toril the plane itself constantly alienates from the Prime, feyroads break, and their number reduces, on the other side their connection with the House of Nature stengthens with more and more merged places (''spills''). Though the process lasts millions of years, and it depends on collective fey state of mind, if more fey would want to return to the Prime, plane would took an opposite path, consequence of that would be renewal of sylvan people in Faerun and expansion of forests
Krash 11-01-06, 06:04 PM	Would Melith into Deneir work - give his church is supposedly founded in c. 26 DR? -- George Krashos
Gray Richardson 11-01-06, 09:47 PM	Would Melith into Deneir work - give his church is supposedly founded in c. 26 DR?I cannot rule it out, but I think there is a better case to be made for Milil. I think it more likely that Melith became Milil for the reasons that: 1) The similarity of their names 2) Melith had/has the portfolio of inspiration and while Milil does not have this portfolio, it says in Faiths & Avatars: Dogma: Milil is a god of creativity and inspiration 3) Milil has his realm in the House of Knowledge, and if he were indeed the grandchild of Oghma, that would explain why he came to be there. The House of Knowledge seems to be an important plane for the Jhaamdathi pantheon. 4) Milil is very charismatic and inspiring, Deneir is kind of boring and stodgy. 5) Milil is about creating new art, while Deneir is more about recording information than the creation of stories. My gut feeling is that Deneir was a mortal scribe or servant of Oghma or Savras (perhaps even a librarian) who ascended to godhood at some point prior to 25 DR, the Year of Many Runes. Alternate possible origins for Deneir: He could be another son of Oghma, or even of Milil or Murdane. How about a son of Murdane by Savras? (that would be weird but could be an interesting complication) Another possibility: when Murdane was killed, Deneir could have taken up what was left of her portfolios. Maybe as her loyal servant, Deneir was elevated and entrusted with her portfolios by Oghma. Heck, Deneir could have even been the one to kill her! If he were allied with Savras and Savras supported him when he went up against Murdane, then Deneir might have rightfully won his portfolios from her. Of course, they might be altered somewhat, in the same way that Finder got his portfolios from Moander but has transformed them somewhat. Assuming for a moment that Deneir were the one to kill Murdane, he might not have done it out of malice or any sense of rivalry or power-seeking. His motivation may have purely been for the greater good, taking out Lathander's greatest general and strategist in an effort to bring a halt to Lathander's misguided war to consolidate the pantheons under his rule. I could even see how that might happen too, with Deneir the scribe purposefully changing a word or even a single letter in an important military comunique from Murdane to Lathander or her soldiers, with that crucial piece of information being miscomunicated resulting in her death and Lathander's defeat. I don't know if the timing is exactly right for that, though, as 25 DR is a decade before the Shadow King began to unite the peoples of the Chionthar river valley into his empire of Ebenfar, an event that seems to have precipitated (or foreshadowed if you will) the Dawn Cataclysm. But maybe the dates could be worked out somehow with some serious thinking about it.
Gray Richardson 11-02-06, 01:30 AM	I had always wondered about the age of Toril. I mean, it has really been bugging me for a very long time. I once thought that it was a natural planet, one that evolved over billions of years. But for the past couple of years I have been thinking that Toril was probably made by Shar and Selune, as per the creation myth. But when? When was Toril created? Ed Greenwood has now given more credence to the idea that Toril was created and has suggested a date. When asked over at Candlekeep about the age of Toril, Ed had this to say:As for the geological age of Toril, we don’t know for sure. However, I can say that the eldest elves and dragons who’ve considered the matter, and the best-informed human sages ditto, all tend to hold opinions that suggest Toril is twice as old as the Age of Thunder . . . or perhaps a LITTLE less.While Ed is by no means ruling out any competing theories--after all, these learned elves, dragons and human sages could still be wrong. But I see this as strong evidence that Toril was created about 70,000 years ago. Which is a really helpful date when you are trying to create a chronology of Toril's Planes. The Age of Thunder began approximately -35,000 DR, or about 36,374 years ago. Twice that would be about 72,748 years ago. A LITTLE less than that would be about 70,000 years ago. I don't know what Ed means by "a LITTLE", call it -70,000 DR plus or minus a few years. From this you can gather that the Gates of the Moon were created a little before this, and the House of Nature came into existance a little after as the goddess Chauntea was born and life began to flourish across the celestial bodies of Realmspace. Then came the War of Light and Darkness, the god of War and the plane of Warrior's Rest. The first nightmare brought about Dendar. The first Death brought about the Fugue Plane, and with Mystryl came the plane of Dweomertor (as Mystryl first called her home plane before it blossomed into a shining city) and the plane of Cynosure where the treaty ending the war was negotiated. And several important gods interloped during this time, it is a very crucial date to know! -70,000 DR! At last I have a date to work with for the begining of it all! :plotting:
Jiggawha 11-02-06, 05:28 AM	I think that Ed was saying what they hold opinions about that, but that's still far from the truth, despite their magical superiority, their scientific geological (and radiometric age dating) knowledge is very limited, it's like when Irish archbishop calculated from the Bible that creation began in 4004 BC. Shar/Mystryl creation myth could be just Genesis for humans of FR, other species have other creation myths and probably none of them is close to the truth. What about the evolution of species, humans weren't created by magic and we know how long it takes to evolve without divine interference
Gray Richardson 11-02-06, 08:57 AM	Ed didn't suggest at all that it was not the truth. I think he was hinting that it may indeed be the truth that Toril is only 70,000 years old. But I do think he was intentionally leaving it open to mystery. He was giving us an answer veiled in plausible deniability. By refusing to endorse an absolute answer, it leaves the DM who wants to have an evolutionary origin for Toril room to still have life crawling from the seas, and millions of years of pre-history and dinosaurs, with still older, more ancient civilizations that arose and fell a million years before the Sarrukh. But I am more intrigued with the possibilities that spring from the date that Ed has given us. If you are inclined towards the theory that Shar and Selune created Toril, then there ought to be a date to work with. I think the one Ed has supplied works very, very well to help place certain events within a timeline. :)
Gray Richardson 12-25-06, 11:47 AM	Dragon #351 has a wonderful collection of articles centered around the World Serpent Inn. The article regarding the World Serpent Inn itself is written by Eric Boyd, scribe of Serpent Kingdoms, among many other magnificent tomes of Realmslore. In the article he links the formation of the World Serpent Inn firmly to the fragmentation of the World Serpent deity. It is also suggested (couched in the terms of philosophical conjecture) that the Inn itself is actually an aspect or fragment of the World Serpent. The barkeep, Mitchifer, is thought to be a divine servant of the bar (something like an angel perhaps? although he is neutral, the article suggests giving him human fighter 20 stats with the paragon template). Mitchifer's true nature is left up to the DM, however, the article further suggests that Mitchifer may be a direct manifestation of the deity himself. I like that a lot. I really dig the idea that Mitchifer may be some sort of avatar of the World Serpent. The picture of Mitchifer on p. 24 is awesome too, by the way. Everything about this article is cool, but one other landmark thing it does for (I believe) the first time in print is confirm that Toril and Eberron exist within the same multiverse (though not cosmology mind you) and that travel is possible between the two--at least by means of the portals in the World Serpent Inn. Regulars in the bar include inhabitants of both Toril and of Eberron, and a couple of permanent and some less permanent portals are mentioned linking the WSI to both worlds. I wonder if the World Serpent Inn was once upon a time (some 35 thousand years ago) the "Heaven" of the Sarrukh, or if that plane was yet some other plane entirely. If the WSI was indeed formerly the World Serpent's Divine realm, it would seem to have changed a great deal from what it used to be. But then, the souls of the Sarrukh that populated the plane might have long since been absorbed into the plane or merged with the World Serpent himself (as souls are wont to do). Or maybe they live on in the plane but on a different "layer". Or maybe there are still a few Sarrukh around in the Inn wandering the backrooms and corridors. If the corridors are truly infinite then there would be plenty of room. Maybe, just maybe, if you wander the corridors for miles or years even, if you go back far enough, the look of the hallways might change, become rounded, made of stone, appearing more serpentine, reflecting yuan-ti or Sarrukh style architecture. In those rooms you might find the souls of sarrukh petitioners sleeping, in torpor, helping the World Serpent dream his portals to myriad places across the universes.
Purple Dragon Knight 12-26-06, 12:58 AM	I bought the magazine a few days ago, and haven't gotten to it yet... thanks for the reminder Gray: I'll peruse these articles tonight or tomorrow! :D But speaking of Toril's connections to other cosmologies/multiverses, how about Sigil? I asked this question over in Candlekeep (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8373)but I am not sure you personally replied to that one... I doth needeth yon planar expertise, for I am a clueless prime cutter! :D
Gray Richardson 12-26-06, 01:51 AM	No worries, Sigil is definitely connected to Faerun by at least one canon portal. See Faiths & Pantheons p. 161. There is a portal to Sigil beneath the Abbey of the Sword. It is connected as well by as many other portals as a DM deems appropriate. ;)
boards 12-26-06, 05:12 PM	Hi Grey I haven't read that Dragon copy and I dont know if you have read the Raymend E Fiest books, but is the World Serpent Inn is something like Honest Johns in the Hall of Worlds.
Gray Richardson 12-27-06, 01:53 AM	Yep, the World Serpent Inn is very much like Honest John's in the Hall of Worlds. Well, more like the Hall of Worlds itself. It's also a little bit like Munden's Bar in Cynosure from the Grimjack comic. It follows in the grand tradition of other fictional bars such as Callahan's Crosstime Saloon, Rick's Cafe Americain, The White Hart, Gavagan's Bar, Worlds' End a Free House from Sandman, The Exile's Club (http://www.horrormasters.com/Text/a1423.pdf), The Vulgar Unicorn, and Jorkens's Billiards Club. Places where you go (or stumble upon inadvertently) to hear tall tales, meet interesting people, occasionally find adventure and sometimes depart into strange new destinations far removed from your place of origin. The World Serpent Inn is a wonderful device for DM's to use to introduce a planar adventure, or to bridge between campaign settings, or to introduce a planar or divine NPC. Unlike Sigil, gods can enter the World Serpent Inn and often congregate there--see the module OP1 Tales of the Outer Planes (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_297_303&products_id=1087&) for some examples of gods who frequent the pub.
ripvanwormer 12-27-06, 02:11 AM	Unlike Sigil, gods can enter the World Serpent Inn and often congregate there. Here is a cartoon (http://www.greyhawkonline.com/wogcomic/title/wogstrip96a.htm), drawn by Mortellan, depicting gods in the World Serpent Inn, and their restroom arrangements.
boards 12-27-06, 03:38 AM	Cheers Grey, thanks for the info.
Gray Richardson 12-28-06, 01:45 AM	I was reading Dragons of Faerun p.134 about Kayas the Krakenscourge, one of the coolest weapons with some amazing deep sea lore in its description, and it got me to thinking about the Fated Depths, an underdeveloped plane with infinite potential for adventure. This plane probably has as fascinating a history as any in the Great Tree cosmology just waiting for someone to tell its many stories. On p.60 of the Sea of Fallen Stars, Steven Schend writes:Other Gods of Serōs and the Outer Sea Do more gods exist in the oceans, both Serōs and the Outer Seas and beyond the horizons? Many mysteries both above and beneath the waves await those with the bravery to seek them out. Among those enigmas are many other powers that few surface-worlders could ever believe, and these all guard themselves jealously from exposure, though whether they do so out of fear or simple caution, none know. From the many lost gods of the Shalarin to the mythical Great School of the parent aquatic races and on to Those Who Sleep Below in the deep-sea trenches beneath the tritons’ lairs, they all have their stories to tell.Emphasis mine. This "Great School" quote really captured my imagination. So this supports the idea that the aquatic creator race (more recently dubbed the Batrachi) originally had a large pantheon of aquatic gods called the Great School. This pantheon probably lived in the Fated Depths (or possibly another aquatic plane--there could certainly have been more than one aquatic outer plane in the Great Tree back in the day, planes are always sprouting and falling away like leaves from the limbs of the Great Tree). But the land-dwelling Batrachi (whose very name derives from the Greek word Batrachos meaning frog) were monotheistic, worshipping the god Ramenos, who himself was probably an aspect of the World Serpent. What happened to the Great School? I tried to make the best case that I could in my article on the Batrachi in the Candlekeep Compendium Volume III (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_III.zip) that the Batrachi began as an aquatic race of octopi with some natural ability to shapeshift that evolved as a camouflage mechanism (similar to real world octopi and squid). These aquatic forebears are direct ancestors of the Tako and the Blue Ring Octopi and even the doppelgangers who also adapted to living on land. I speculated that Ramenos, a charismatic fragment of the World Serpent, began to make inroads beneath the waves and his worship began to take hold among the aquatic creator race. Ramenos preached a doctrine of monotheism. I saw in my mind a vision of the Harrowing of the Great School, as Ramenos swam through the Fateful Depths devouring the aquatic gods in his gaping, ever-hungry maw. As the aquatic creator race abandonned the worship of the Great School, Ramenos began to preach that their destiny lay upon the land. In a great, epic ritual, the followers of Ramenos transformed their race, just as the tadpole metamorphoses into a frog, so too the Batrachi grew spines and proper legs and humanoid features, becoming amphibious. They adapted to the land above the waves which allowed them to grow a huge empire in the heart of Faerun. There are precedents in lore of races transforming themselves, such as the dark elves of Miyeritar metamorphosing into Sharn, and certain human populations becoming Phaerimm, so no reason the Batrachi could not have undergone a similar racial metamorphosis. But prior to all of this, I am thinking the Fateful Depths might once have been a nicer place. Maybe more neutral, possibly containing both good and dark regions. The Great School pantheon may have contained aquatic variants/aspects of some of the gods we know today. I imagine Chauntea may have been worshipped as a Great Mother octopus, with baby octopi coiled in the protective embrace of her many arms. Jergal or his predecessor on the Fugue Plane may have been venerated as some sort of death squid. Panzuriel may have been a part of their pantheon. Mystryl may have been worshiped as the great jellyfish of silver fire. Perhaps even Sekolah began as a fragment of Talos or Malar, or even Tempus as the original war god of the deep (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War-Gods_of_the_Deep). Of course they were probably worshipped under different names, and they may not have even been recognizable as aspects of the gods we know today--conceived as they were by the alien minds of undersea invertebrates. I figure that the Krakentua (titanic, kraken-headed demons from the Kara-Tur monstrous compendium) probably come from the Fated Depths. I would like to think the Krakentua once had a bigger presence in Faerun and maybe one day will rise again. Blibdoolpoolp lairs in the Fated Depths, which leads me to believe that the Trench of Lopok at the bottom of the Sea of Fallen Stars may actually open into the Fated Depths, and that is, among other things, what the Tritons of Seros guard so vigilantly against. The Trench of Lopok is also called "Sekolah's Trench" (SoFS p.67) and if Sekolah (or his avatar) ever swam up out of it, that might also reenforce the idea that the trench contains a portal into the Fated Depths where Sekolah lairs. I particularly like this cool quote from SoFS p.156:It is also from this trench that the morkoth and kuo-toa allegedly rose, leading some to believe that dark gods live beneath its shadowed depths. The triton say little, admitting only to watching against “"Those Who Sleep Below”" and they are on guard at all times. Elminster’s Notes: I have heard many a strange tale about the trench, but I have not seen it for myself. Best ye ask of Selvys Ghaur of Telflamm, who once told the Simbul of its corruptive waters and darkness far colder than the depths through which its waters run.Little has been written of the plane of the Fated Depths, and yet I think it must contain many mysteries and have a storied past that speaks of ancient oceanic pantheons and nautical horrors and all the wonder to be found beneath the waves. I hope someday its stories will be touched on in a Realms sourcebook or adventure.
Krash 12-28-06, 04:22 AM	You know, that's the second time these last couple of months that "Those Who Sleep Below" have garnered my attention. Yep, second time.:) -- George Krashos
Gray Richardson 12-28-06, 09:32 PM	You don't say... Well, I think you have in turn garnered my attentention, George! What, pray tell was the first mention that grabbed your attention? :coolcthul (Asks Gray nonchallantly, fully expecting an answer that rhymes with "pond enclosure of cement" ;) ).
Krash 12-28-06, 11:02 PM	Hmm, yes. The first mention. Now that would be telling.:) ;) -- George Krashos
Dirty Dan the Laundry Man 03-16-07, 12:43 PM	Gray, this thread is absolutely fantastic, informative, and entertaining. I worry that such a treatise would ever get pruned. Have you thought of compiling all these posts into an aggregate document for publishing at Candlekeep or somewhere similar. Thanks again for all your hard work and creative insight!
Gray Richardson 03-17-07, 07:43 AM	That's very nice of you to say Dan! I have downloaded a copy of this thread on my own computer; if it ever got pruned, I guess I could reformat it in some fashion and ask Alaundo to host it on a page over at Candlekeep. Sadly, I just noticed they pruned the 100 Plot Hooks for your Planar Campaign thread. Which is sad because it had a lot of great stories and hooks in it. Luckily I had saved that thread too. Maybe I could reformat that one and see if Alaundo might host it.
Gray Richardson 03-17-07, 11:42 AM	Toril has at least 4 “astral” planes, maybe more. Some have found this notion of a non-uniform, fragmented astral schema to be confusing, even objectionable. I have long been fascinated with Toril’s astral set-up. How did it come to be this way? Why does Kara-Tur have a Spirit World in lieu of an Astral Plane? As Einstein dreamed of discovering a Unified Field Theory of physics, I have been working towards a Unified Field Theory of Toril’s planes. The results and meanderings of that thinking have largely unfolded in this thread. I have the inkling of a theory about how Toril’s Astral Plane came to be fragmented. It is not complete. I am still trying to wrap my brain around it. But that discussion over at Candlekeep about Faerie and Kara-Tur’s Spirit World possibly being the same plane (see post #170 above) has been simmering in my brain and just recently came to a boil. This is what I am currently thinking.
Gray Richardson 03-17-07, 11:45 AM	IN the beginning, before the War of Light & Darkness, there was only one outer plane. That plane was the Gates of the Moon. Selūne lived there. Shar did not have an outer planar realm, as such. Shar made her abode in the Shadow Plane. The Gates of the Moon was attached to Toril by means of a transitive plane that did not resemble the Silver Void that we are familiar with today. This plane was a spirit realm, a vibrant plane where the spirits of all things, living and unliving, made their homes. It was coterminous and coexistent with the Material Plane, and looked much like a spiritual reflection of the natural world of Abeir-Toril. The daughter of Selūne and Shar, Chauntea, made her abode in this plane. I think you could make a case that, in some fashion, Chauntea WAS the plane itself, the spiritual manifestation of the biosphere of Abeir-Toril. This realm reflected in spirit form all the natural features of Toril, all its environments and its myriad ecological niches. The fey creator race called this realm Faerie. The native humans of Toril knew this plane as the House of Nature. The Sarrukh called the plane in their tongue something like “The Scales of the World Serpent”. The aquatic creator race called the oceans of this plane the Fated Depths. And the underdark of this Spirit World was known to the subterranean folk as the realm of Deep Caverns. The avian creator race called this plane by a name which roughly translates as “The Horizon” but which to them meant, more precisely, that point beyond the edge of the world where sky touches soil. In the beginning, those gods who arose on Toril, or who came from beyond to settle in Toril’s cosmos, made their realms in this Spirit World or crafted demiplanes attached to this superplane. Othea, the spiritual manifestation of a particular mountain in Faerūn lived in this plane, along with all the other nature goddesses and spirits. When Annam interloped to Toril, he settled next to Othea in the House of Nature and called his realm Jotunheim. When the Seldarine came to Toril, they also established their realm in the House of Nature--in territory previously claimed by the Jotun pantheon. The giant and elf gods fought a war for this land, which is why you can still see giant ruins in Arvandor today. Oghma, came to dwell here, and his House of Knowledge, a wilderness of ancient oaks and clear blue pools, was well at home in this vast Spirit Realm. The Green Fields of the halflings, the Golden Hills of the gnomes, the Mountain of the Dwarves, Dragon Eyrie, all were once firmly nestled or attached to this unified, spirit super-plane. I suspect that even Mystryl’s Dweomertor, the heart of magic and the Weave, was once a rocky hill somewhere in Chauntea’s spirit plane. Did Heliopolis arise in those regions coterminous with Mulhorand? Did Zigguraxus spring up in those lands of the Spirit World that were coterminous with Unther? Possibly. Did the battles of Clangor and Nishrek once clash in the House of Nature? Perhaps. What works really well with this notion is the fact that Ed Greenwood has mentioned that his original conception of Toril’s Astral Plane, more resembled the Wood Between the Worlds from Narnia than Gary Gygax’s Silver Void. Ed hasn’t elaborated much on how it worked in his campaign, but in the Narnia books, the Wood was a vast forest of trees with pools of water all around. The pools of water functioned the same as the color pools in the Gygaxian Silver Void, you could step through them into another plane. Functionally, the Wood Between the Worlds works the same as the Silver Void Astral, it is just very different in appearance and conception, a more naturalistic transitive plane.
Gray Richardson 03-17-07, 11:56 AM	So the big question is: If the House of Nature, Faerie, Kara-Tur’s Spirit World and the other “Astrals” were once all unified as part of a super Spirit World, what happened to fragment them all and create the Silver Void astral known in Faerūn today? I don’t know the answer to what caused the fragmentation. It could have been the War of Light & Darkness, which introduced several new planes to the cosmos. The concepts of Death, War, Disease, and Destruction—previously unknown in the Realms—brought with them several new planes to the cosmos. The Fugue Plane arose to count and sort the newly dead. A plane of War sprang up. Cynosure, the plane of truce-making came to be. The Barrens of Doom & Despair arose to house the goddess of Disease and the other Fell gods. The interloper planes of Hell and the Abyss may have been introduced at this time. Maybe when the god of Destruction ripped his own lands free to form the plane of Fury’s Heart—a dark reflection of the House of Nature, the epitome of nature’s wrath—perhaps that is when the super-astral began to crack. Could the Astral have fragmented with the death of the elder creator races? When the World Serpent took his section of the plane wandering the cosmoses in the guise of an Inn (note that the World Serpent Inn has many features of a proper astral plane, and in the Web Enhancement for Manual of the Plane it is suggested as an alternative astral.) When Ramenos harrowed the Fated Depths and devoured the Great School pantheon of the aquatic creator race, could that have split it off as a separate plane in its own right? When the dragons gulped down the last of the Aearee in mid-flight and dominated Faerūn for 6,000 years, did they hedge out the native transitive plane in favor of their own vision of it? As an interloper race (or at least the spawn of an interloper god) did they bring the Silver Void concept to Faerūn from the cosmos they interloped from? They may have displaced Toril's native astral plane, relegating the House of Nature to mere outer plane status, just as they displaced Faerūn's native creator races. Was the astral fragmented by successive waves of interloper races whose new pantheons tore and shredded the fabric of the House of Nature like a tattered quilt? Did the immigration of orcs, goblins, diverse demi-humans and humanoids, and especially such alien races as illithids and beholders, was that the precipitating factor in the shattering of the Astral? Did their competing beliefs and conceptions rip the astral to shreds? Or could it have been the Sundering of the elves which shattered the astral, just as it broke apart the one-land? Could the Sundering have had even greater, more wide-reaching effects on the whole cosmology beyond what was visible in Faerūn? Or could the cause have been the arrival of non-native humans that settled in Zakhara, Kara-Tur and Maztica? It may be a clue that the astrals are divided along continental lines defined by populations of humans. I think ultimately that Ao may have been involved. He seems to have carved up the divine realms according to geo-political spheres of influence of the pantheons and how their populations of worshipers are arrayed on the surface of Toril.
Gray Richardson 03-17-07, 12:44 PM	One last theory about the Astrals of Toril that I would like to toss out there, is that: how the Astral looks may depend on how the souls of Toril perceive it to look. As a plane of Mind and Spirit, it would not be surprising to discover that what people believe about the Astral shapes its appearance. The Astral may be a consensual illusion of how Torilians think it should look. The Astral is an interface for navigating the outer planes. It's a GUI, a “skin” if you will. Faerūnians see it as a Silver Void. The Spirit World is a conception of the Astral held jointly by those humans, fey, and other races that inhabit Kara-Tur. The Maztican astral is the conception held jointly by the inhabitants of that continent. To the Mazticans it looks like a pyramid with many layers. Likewise, the Zakharan Astral reflects the belief of the Zakharan peoples. Perhaps what is unique about the Silver Void of Faerūn’s Astral Plane is that it may reflect the absence of any consensual perception of how it should look. The Silver Void may be a default, bare bones, skinless interface, unaugmented by any unifying belief about what it should look like. The Silver Void conception of the Astral may be the result of so many conflicting and incompatible belief systems from the multitudes of races and cultures that have come to call Faerūn home. The Planescape sourcebook the Guide to the Astral Plane described the Astral as the backstage area that no one is supposed to see. It is that empty area behind the stage, behind the scenery and set dressing that is visible to the audience. Perhaps in the aftermath of the fragmentation of Toril's Astral, in the absence of any consensual expectation of what the Astral should appear like, the Silver Void is what people saw. As more and more astral travelers have traversed the plane, the Silver Void appearance is what they came to expect and believe to be the norm. What was originally the absence of any "skin" is a look that has become entrenched. It's now the "skin" of choice for how the Astral should appear. I imagine this conception would be very hard to change now, it has so much inertia. Perhaps though it could change subtly and slowly over time. I think though that the Fey folk have never wavered in their perception of the Astral. To them it still looks like Faerie. In that sense the fey may be responsible for a bifurcate astral where Faerūn is concerned. Faerie is thought to be a lost or hidden plane. But I think it is still there. The fey crossroads and backroads pass through it. And the Lythari know it well. For the fey folk, the Astral may still be unified throughout Toril. I think it very possible that Faerie and Kara-Tur's Spirit World are still united, a single plane. Faerie may just be the western realms of Kara-Tur's Spirit Plane--those parts that are coexistent and coterminous with Faerūn. So above, in a nutshell, is my nascent Unified Field Theory of Faerūn’s fragmented Astral Planes. They appear to be 4 (or more) separate transitive planes, but just as the 4 forces of physics are actually fragments of a unified super-force, so too are the Astral Planes of Toril merely fragmented conceptions of a single Astral Plane.
Purple Dragon Knight 03-17-07, 07:10 PM	Very nice Gray! I like your explanation of the "birth" of an Astral plane as a result of deities carving out pieces of a spirit world to their image! (i.e. the spirit world began to "crack"... I like that!) How would you, say, unify the present Toril cosmology to other cosmologies, hypothetically speaking? I felt the need to do that in my campaign (as shown below), but I'd be very interested to see your own thought process, should you one day feel the need to do the same thing. Here is my explanation: (born out of recent playing in one of my Realms player's Planescape Campaign) If it was my Planescape campaign, I would have initially kept the two cosmologies separate and link them through the Plane of Shadow (not sure if it's how it works in terms of canon now, but the diagram in the 3.0 Manual of the Planes seems to hint at that...) However, my Planescape DM has decided to have ONE cosmology, and have the FR planes be 'parts of existing Great Wheel planes', and to justify it because 'clueless primes from Faerun have it all wrong in the first place.' That works for me, because frankly, otherwise, the fixes required to the campaign start making the whole separate cosmology thing look really, really ridiculous. In fact, I'm really glad he went that route, 'cause that got me thinking on how we could fix that whole "Realms are separate" debacle! I, so far, have liked having the FR cosmology separate, but now, as a player, I keep wondering "Why?Why?Why?Why?Why?Why?Why?" In a system that can already accomodate ALTERNATE PRIMES, why the hell did they decide to separate the cosmologies? Maybe they're not separate, and maybe Ao is to Faerun as what the Lady of Blades is to Sigil (i.e. a huge overdeity controlling how one can access a plane and if or if not deities can move freely...) SIGIL overgod: Lady of Blades or Pain, whichever... cosmology: Great Wheel plane: Outlands, on top of the spire... access: only through an existing portal (no spells, not even natural flying for beings with wings...) deity travel: no deity travel allowed (deities can't get in, if they somehow do, they get destroyed by overgod Lady of Pain and all their followers everywhere are also instantly destroyed) FAERUN overgod: Ao cosmology: Great Tree plane: many of them access: only through Shadow Plane OR portal from Sigil OR Spelljamming OR through express permission from Ao deity travel: no deity travel allowed, except through Ao's permission Now, it would be easy to imagine Faerun as being part of the Great Wheel, but with the rest shown above staying the same... One just have to imagine one thing: there is no separate cosmologies. Seriously: imagine there is only one cosmology... the Great Wheel, ungoverned by anyone. The overgods that reside within it are in essence the very fabric of the 'separate cosmologies' we've assumed, their presence a tangible barriers between planes, such as the Lady of Pain in Sigil (i.e. she establishes rules for gods in essence... she controls a piece of the multiverse real estate that cannot be changed by gods...) Now, imagine Ao is the same, but his barrier encompasses multiple planes, and separates Faerunian deity domains from the rest of the plane they reside into (i.e. imagine the Great Wheel, but with a big incorporeal TREE in it, Ao being the tree! i.e. branches go to SOME planes, but not all of them... sometimes two or three branches go to the same plane, and faerunian assume these are two or three different planes, obviously, heedless that the 2-3 planes are say, all located within the Abyss... and they don't know better because they can't move between Ao's 'branches') In short, overgods are the gods' babysitters and prevent the whole multiverse to fall apart! they're cool! Maybe that's why they're all neutral! This way one could have his cake and eat it too!!! oh yeah, I'm going to show that to my DM now!
Gray Richardson 03-17-07, 08:03 PM	I tend to be a fundamentalist where the cosmology is concerned. I try to view every word written in an official realms source as the absolute gospel with regard to canon. Where conflicts occur I try to find ways to read between the lines to see if a solution can be found so that there is no conflict. But where the conflict cannot be resolved I use the rule that the Realms designers have stated that new lore overrides previous lore. Ed Greenwood has addressed this issue previously, see post 86 above: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5325859&postcount=86 All the current sources point to the Great Tree and the Great Wheel being two separate cosmologies in a larger Multiverse that contains numerous material planes and worlds. Greyhawk's Great Wheel and the Great Tree of the Forgotten Realms are both part of a larger multiverse, all linked together by the Plane of Shadow and other methods, including Sigil, the Celestial Trees, the Rivers of Blood/Styx, etc. There is a diagram in the Manual of Planes which shows the alternate universes like beads on a necklace, connected by a strand which is the Plane of Shadow. I myself envision the Plane of Shadow as a vast landscape of rich, black soil in which a forest of trees grows, each one a separate cosmology tied to a crystal sphere containing an individual universe. Of course, not all the cosmologies are trees, some are wheels, some are orreries, some are arrayed in epicycles or nested polygons, while others have more exotic configurations. There are winding roads and paths through the forest that connect many of these worlds and planes together. That's how I imagine it, although it's just a metaphor to help one imagine a multi-dimensional metaphysical structure that makes up the multiverse.
Valgard 03-18-07, 02:58 PM	Just a question, Gray. Will you publish something about all of what's in this post? because I will be the first one to download it. :ton:
Wire 03-18-07, 06:21 PM	I will echo what Dirty Dan and Valgard have both said --- I hope this thread gets published as a document somewhere (Candlekeep, WotC, anywhere!) so it will last in perpituity. I've lost a number of my favorite threads over the years due to pruning. And I would hate to see this one slip through the cracks as well. Thanks again, Gray, for this huge labour of love of yours that we all share as well!
Purple Dragon Knight 03-18-07, 06:25 PM	I tend to be a fundamentalist where the cosmology is concerned. I try to view every word written in an official realms source as the absolute gospel with regard to canon. Where conflicts occur I try to find ways to read between the lines to see if a solution can be found so that there is no conflict. But where the conflict cannot be resolved I use the rule that the Realms designers have stated that new lore overrides previous lore. Ed Greenwood has addressed this issue previously, see post 86 above: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5325859&postcount=86 All the current sources point to the Great Tree and the Great Wheel being two separate cosmologies in a larger Multiverse that contains numerous material planes and worlds. Greyhawk's Great Wheel and the Great Tree of the Forgotten Realms are both part of a larger multiverse, all linked together by the Plane of Shadow and other methods, including Sigil, the Celestial Trees, the Rivers of Blood/Styx, etc. There is a diagram in the Manual of Planes which shows the alternate universes like beads on a necklace, connected by a strand which is the Plane of Shadow. I myself envision the Plane of Shadow as a vast landscape of rich, black soil in which a forest of trees grows, each one a separate cosmology tied to a crystal sphere containing an individual universe. Of course, not all the cosmologies are trees, some are wheels, some are orreries, some are arrayed in epicycles or nested polygons, while others have more exotic configurations. There are winding roads and paths through the forest that connect many of these worlds and planes together. That's how I imagine it, although it's just a metaphor to help one imagine a multi-dimensional metaphysical structure that makes up the multiverse. In effect, my unified ONE cosmology homebrew, where the overpowers ARE the cosmologies (i.e. like incorporeal containers within one set of Outer planes, be it in Wheel form or Tree form) and the official multiple cosmologies setup (which you detailed and improved, through your various posts) are both the same in respect to how a PC would travel them (i.e. Shadow Plane is the only 'true' common link between them - I prefer to exclude portals and/or Sigil from a cosmology discussion, as they use translocation magic that scarcely explain how the actual transport from one location to another is really achieved... I say portals use the Shadow Plane as a medium, but that's just me! :D ) Until a better canon explanation is given to us as to why the World Tree, Sigil, the River of Blood/Styx and other planar anomalies are common to all canon cosmologies, I have chosen to have a ONE cosmology setup, with the overpowers being the actual barriers within that ONE cosmology. The (insanely knowledgeable) mortals believe the cosmologies are separate; the gods KNOW there is only ONE cosmology, and that the overpowers have divided parts of the existing planes for their use (i.e. in "TRUTH", the Demonweb Pits are located the 66th? layer of the "TRUE" Abyss; the mortals of Faerun think this is a separate outer plane; the gods, such as Lolth, know that it is a piece of the Abyss which she has been assigned to by Ao, and she knows that she cannot go to the other parts of layer 66 or to the other layers of the Abyss that are not "Realms" or "Ao" territory; attempting to go there or communicate with the non-Realms gods, such as Oerth's Lolth, would result in her immediate destruction)
BrennonGoldeye 03-18-07, 09:07 PM	It has taken me 2 weeks of spending 15mins a day to read this thread. And it was worth every minute. Gray, brilliance, pure insightful brilliance.:ayyyy!:
Gray Richardson 03-19-07, 01:04 AM	Just a question, Gray. Will you publish something about all of what's in this post? because I will be the first one to download it.Thanks for the compliments guys! You may know this already, but for those people who don't, at the top of every thread is a clickable link that says "Thread Tools". If you click on that link you get a drop-down menu that has the option to "Download This Thread." If you click on that option you can save the whole thread (all pages) as a text file to your computer. I have written some planar travelogs of the Great Tree planes in articles that have appeared in the Candlekeep Compendium (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/). You can download the current issue, along with all the back issues, at this link here: http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/ In addition to the travelogs of planes like the Barrens of Doom & Despair (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_II.zip), Dragon Eyrie (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_IV.zip), and Brightwater (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_VI.zip), I wrote two articles about my speculations on the history of two of the creator races: the aquatic creator race (the Batrachi) (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_III.zip) and the avian creator race (the Aearee) (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_VII.zip). Maybe one day I will compile some of this lore and see if Alaundo will host it over at Candlekeep. I would love to someday write up a Great Tree netbook, sort of a Faerūnian Manual of the Planes. Thanks for your interest! :)
Stigger 03-19-07, 07:46 AM	Interesting read so far. Thanks for the thread tools tip by the way, never looked at that button before tonight. :)
Iakhovas 03-21-07, 09:09 PM	I would love to someday write up a Great Tree netbook, sort of a Faerūnian Manual of the Planes. Now that is a sourcebook I'd like to see. Let me know if you want any help Gray. :D
Old Sage 03-21-07, 09:52 PM	Maybe one day I will compile some of this lore and see if Alaundo will host it over at Candlekeep. I would love to someday write up a Great Tree netbook, sort of a Faerūnian Manual of the Planes. Thanks for your interest! :)Despite my own feelings with regard to the current Great Tree cosmology, my love of all-things-planar would never allow me to potentially deny any FR scribe such a valuable resource of compiled lore relating to the planes of the Toril. Gray, if you require any assistance in either the composition or storage of such wondrous lore, I'm more than ready to help out in whatever capacity I can manage. You need only ask.
Faraer 03-21-07, 09:57 PM	Ed Greenwood has addressed this issue previously, see post 86 above: http://boards1.wizards.com/showpost.php?p=5325859&postcount=86 All the current sources point to the Great Tree and the Great Wheel being two separate cosmologies in a larger Multiverse that contains numerous material planes and worlds.Ed prefers to use both 'cosmologies' as fallible mortal maps of the same 'place'. As he once told me, The Great Wheel or any other cosmology doesn’t bother me, just as avatar stats and the endless “but this god came first, or can beat that god” arguments don’t: mortal PCs can’t know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased. Everything. So it really is all up to the DM.
Gray Richardson 03-21-07, 11:58 PM	Gray, if you require any assistance in either the composition or storage of such wondrous lore, I'm more than ready to help out in whatever capacity I can manage. You need only ask.Thank you Brian and Sage! I appreciate you both very much. ;)
Gray Richardson 05-06-07, 09:56 PM	You know, that's the second time these last couple of months that "Those Who Sleep Below" have garnered my attention. Yep, second time.:) -- George KrashosWell, this mystery is solved: Dragon #355 has a wonderful article by Eric Boyd, another in the Volo's Guide series of articles. This one concerns demon cults in the Realms, and has some very interesting information about Baphomet, Dagon, Graz'zt and Eltab. In the article we learn that "Those Who Sleep Below" are an assortment of aquatic Obyrith lords of the Abyss, numbering among them Dagon, and that the Trench of Lopok in the Sea of Fallen Stars contains a portal to the Abyss somewhere in its depths. While Blibdoolpoolp, crustacean-headed goddess of the kuo-toa, is not mentioned in this article, I do remember some discussion of her awhile back being linked to "Those Who Sleep Below". If there is a link there, then I wonder if perhaps Blibdoolpoolp herself might not have started out as an Obyrith lord before achieving her divine status. That might certainly explain her somewhat Lovecraftian appearance, which is much in keeping with the Obyrith motif. :coolcthul
XHereticX 05-08-07, 03:48 PM	Thanks for the compliments guys! You may know this already, but for those people who don't, at the top of every thread is a clickable link that says "Thread Tools". If you click on that link you get a drop-down menu that has the option to "Download This Thread." If you click on that option you can save the whole thread (all pages) as a text file to your computer. I have written some planar travelogs of the Great Tree planes in articles that have appeared in the Candlekeep Compendium (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/). You can download the current issue, along with all the back issues, at this link here: http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/ In addition to the travelogs of planes like the Barrens of Doom & Despair (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_II.zip), Dragon Eyrie (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_IV.zip), and Brightwater (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_VI.zip), I wrote two articles about my speculations on the history of two of the creator races: the aquatic creator race (the Batrachi) (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_III.zip) and the avian creator race (the Aearee) (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_VII.zip). Maybe one day I will compile some of this lore and see if Alaundo will host it over at Candlekeep. I would love to someday write up a Great Tree netbook, sort of a Faerūnian Manual of the Planes. Thanks for your interest! :) It would be really cool if you made a FR MoTP. Although I still like the Great Wheel and its alignment based system a little better, I find the tree a kind of new frontier to explore and I enjoy trying to figure out its mysteries, plus it seems to fit Faerun pretty well. Keep up the good work
Gray Richardson 05-08-07, 08:53 PM	Thanks! :)
XHereticX 05-10-07, 06:06 PM	Oh, I like the theory of the fiends being interlopers from Greyhawk as you said. But, didn't wizards once say that according to canon the FR fiends are completly different beings than the GH ones? Also, according to F&P, when a deity interlopes, they only send an aspect of themselves. But this seems to have changed as of 3.5, but im not sure where. I looked in PTGF but it isn't in there. So are the rules still as of F&P? And I have always wondered, have the native deities of Toril (etc. Mystra, Talos, Shar) ever interloped before?
Gray Richardson 05-10-07, 11:37 PM	Oh, I like the theory of the fiends being interlopers from Greyhawk as you said. But, didn't wizards once say that according to canon the FR fiends are completly different beings than the GH ones?Something like that. But they never said that the fiends did not have a common origin, just that they are separate and distinct entities now. My current theory is that during the War of Light and Darkness, Shar traveled through Shadow (where she lives) to Greyhawk to enlist aid from dark powers, such as the yugoloths, demons, devils, and such. Shar offered them souls and territory in the Great Tree cosmology if they would intervene in the war on her side. I speculate that the fiend lords sent troops led by avatars (or clones) of themselves. I think it possible also that she could have skipped over the fiend lords entirely and made a bargain with the Abyss and Baator directly to bring avatars of those two planes and all their contents directly into the Great Tree. Can planes have avatars? I don't know, but I think it plausible. Regardless, I think the fiendish avatars would have been instilled with a higher than average degree of autonomy and fiendish power, what you might call a "manifestation" or a "super-avatar" or a "fragment". They would have been essentially separate entities. Once established in the Realms, the avatars were meant to be permanently stationed in the Great Tree to tend to their demonic and diabolic (and 'lothy) interests in the Realms. According to this theory, the Orcus of the Realms was once the same Orcus of Greyhawk, but he split in two and now they are two separate entities, same with Demogorgon, Graz'zt, Asmodeus and so on. Their personal histories would have been the same up to a point (say 70,000 years ago, give or take) and then, once they had split, their personal histories would have diverged. For instance, Jubilex is alive and well in Greyhawk, but his fragment in the Realms seems to have been eaten by Ghaunadaur at some point in the distant past. Jubilex no longer has a presence in the Realms, except as an alias for Ghaunadaur.according to F&P, when a deity interlopes, they only send an aspect of themselves. But this seems to have changed as of 3.5, but im not sure where. I looked in PTGF but it isn't in there. So are the rules still as of F&P?The rules would indeed seem to have changed.And I have always wondered, have the native deities of Toril (etc. Mystra, Talos, Shar) ever interloped before?Yes, many Torilian deities have sought to broaden their worship beyond the sphere of Realmspace. One of the recent novels I think mentioned that Shar and Mask are worshiped on worlds other than Toril. And many, if not all of the Torilian gods have established their faith within the crystal sphere of Greyspace and now have divine realms in Greyhawk's Great Wheel. FC1 Hordes of the Abyss has a chart in the back listing the layers of the Great Wheel Abyss and shows where many of Toril's chaotic evil gods (such as Beshaba and Umberlee) have established divine realms in Greyhawk's Abyss. Just as Tyr interloped into Toril to keep his worship alive, so too have the Torilian deities made inroads into other cosmoses as a hedge against being forgotten and dying in their home sphere some day.
XHereticX 05-11-07, 07:38 PM	That explains it I guess. But in what source was the F&P rules changed? Besides candlekeep, which isn't canon.
Gray Richardson 05-11-07, 08:16 PM	Maybe I misunderstood you, which rules are you speaking of? I think I thought you were referring to Faiths & Avatars, a 2e supplement. The rules have definitely changed since 2e. If you are talking about 3e rules for gods then I would go with Deities & Demigods, and Faiths & Pantheons, and the SRD section about deities, for the most current rules for gods. You will also find tidbits in the PGtF, Book of Exalted Deeds, Champions of Ruin, Champions of Valor, Complete Divine, Hordes of the Abyss, Tyrants of Hell, and the newly released Complete Champion perhaps. In addition, there is a generous peppering of divine lore in most recent Realms sourcebooks, including Lost Empires of Faerūn, Serpent Kingdoms, Power of Faerūn, City of Splendors, Shining South, Dragons of Faerūn, and others.
XHereticX 05-11-07, 08:44 PM	Maybe I misunderstood you, which rules are you speaking of? I think I thought you were referring to Faiths & Avatars, a 2e supplement. The rules have definitely changed since 2e. If you are talking about 3e rules for gods then I would go with Deities & Demigods, and Faiths & Pantheons, and the SRD section about deities, for the most current rules for gods. You will also find tidbits in the PGtF, Book of Exalted Deeds, Champions of Ruin, Champions of Valor, Complete Divine, Hordes of the Abyss, Tyrants of Hell, and the newly released Complete Champion perhaps. In addition, there is a generous peppering of divine lore in most recent Realms sourcebooks, including Lost Empires of Faerūn, Serpent Kingdoms, Power of Faerūn, City of Splendors, Shining South, Dragons of Faerūn, and others. I have most of those books, and nothing seems to contradict F&P. Anyway, if the planes are set up the way you say they are, then its just the 2nd edtion system with multiple primes and multiple cosmologies. I might as well just use the whell for simplicity.
Burningspear 05-11-07, 08:45 PM	Maybe I misunderstood you, which rules are you speaking of? I think I thought you were referring to Faiths & Avatars, a 2e supplement. The rules have definitely changed since 2e. If you are talking about 3e rules for gods then I would go with Deities & Demigods, and Faiths & Pantheons, and the SRD section about deities, for the most current rules for gods. You will also find tidbits in the PGtF, Book of Exalted Deeds, Champions of Ruin, Champions of Valor, Complete Divine, Hordes of the Abyss, Tyrants of Hell, and the newly released Complete Champion perhaps. In addition, there is a generous peppering of divine lore in most recent Realms sourcebooks, including Lost Empires of Faerūn, Serpent Kingdoms, Power of Faerūn, City of Splendors, Shining South, Dragons of Faerūn, and others. If and only If u take all that "info" for granted and as canon compared to "proper" 2nd edition info regarding the planes, plane("scape") etc. :tie:
XHereticX 05-11-07, 08:48 PM	If and only If u take all that "info" for granted and as canon compared to "proper" 2nd edition info regarding the planes, plane("scape") etc. :tie: Yeah, I like the planescape ways and if it wasen't for my hopeless addiction to canon I would have used the wheel a long time ago. well back to the old "your a clueless" days:D
Burningspear 05-11-07, 08:53 PM	Yeah, I like the planescape ways and if it wasen't for my hopeless addiction to canon I would have used the wheel a long time ago. well back to the old "your a clueless" days:D HERe yeay, Here Yeay, lol. I think it very wasteful that they "often seem to ignore" 2nd edition materials in favor of writing something completely off logic from what former writers came up with, seems more like an effort to sabotage other, older writers ideas and energy that was put into all those older books. very sad to me. but hey, we keep to their energy and effort, we don't waste 2nd edition in favor of some crappy ignorant writer who decides to know it all and is actually completely "Clueless" :plotting: Gna, Gna, Gna.... :smirk:
XHereticX 05-11-07, 08:59 PM	HERe yeay, Here Yeay, lol. I think it very wasteful that they "often seem to ignore" 2nd edition materials in favor of writing something completely off logic from what former writers came up with, seems more like an effort to sabotage other, older writers ideas and energy that was put into all those older books. very sad to me. but hey, we keep to their energy and effort, we don't waste 2nd edition in favor of some crappy ignorant writer who decides to know it all and is actually completely "Clueless" :plotting: Gna, Gna, Gna.... :smirk: Fr primes are actually well educated compared to DL primes, who think all the outer planes are "the abyss". So..now about that canon addiction...
Gray Richardson 05-11-07, 09:06 PM	I might as well just use the whell for simplicity.Use whichever cosmos you like. But please take such discussion to another thread. Please respect that this thread is for discussing the history of the Great Tree cosmology and how it interacts with Realms chrononolgy. :)
Burningspear 05-11-07, 09:10 PM	Use whichever cosmos you like. But please take such discussion to another thread. Please respect that this thread is for discussing the history of the Great Tree cosmology and how it interacts with Realms chrononolgy. :) Sour Grape :hides::lop: lol...
XHereticX 05-11-07, 09:12 PM	Use whichever cosmos you like. But please take such discussion to another thread. Please respect that this thread is for discussing the history of the Great Tree cosmology and how it interacts with Realms chrononolgy. :) of course.
Valgard 05-12-07, 04:37 PM	Hey to everyone. I wanted to ask some questions since my last inputs and ideas, they are related after considering, mainly, the inputs concerning the World Serpent of the Sarrukh Mythos. First of all, I know that there are different mythos concerning the creation of the world of Toril. Brian R. James' A Grand History Of The Realms, for example, tells the origin of the world with two mythos: the first, the War of Light and Darkness well discussed here, and the sarrukh-origin mythos of the World Serpent. Both couldn't pass simultaneously (or yes?), but there are no doubts of those entities true existance. My first questions are: How can this happen? What relation have these events with the creation of Toril's cosmology? Another theme. I read somewhere in these forums that the Torilian cosmology presented as there is in the Player's Guide to Faerūn has some planes missing, such as Faerie or the falling plane of Zigguraxus. Considering that Faerie is considered (I think in Races of Faerūn) another prime material plane, and Zigguraxus is decaying, maybe they shouldn't be considered strictly planes of this cosmology. By the way, I've been considering this about "other planes not mentioned but that they exist" after reviewing Serpent Kingdoms. In that book, there's no mention in what planes are inhabited by which deities. Here more questions: Were do the scaled deities inhabit (I'm thinking in House of Nature at first glance, but that's a quick and simple solution)? Were did the World Serpent inhabit when that entity was a true deity? I'm sure this can be difficult, but maybe when can reach some solutions.
ripvanwormer 05-12-07, 05:53 PM	First of all, I know that there are different mythos concerning the creation of the world of Toril. Brian R. James' A Grand History Of The Realms, for example, tells the origin of the world with two mythos: the first, the War of Light and Darkness well discussed here, and the sarrukh-origin mythos of the World Serpent. Both couldn't pass simultaneously (or yes?), but there are no doubts of those entities true existance. My first questions are: How can this happen? What relation have these events with the creation of Toril's cosmology? Gods and the things they're associated with are ambiguous constructs with many aspects, existing in their own mythic time that has nothing to do with history. They are not knowable by mortals; these things are Mystery. History is a new thing; it emerges from Mystery. Its foundation is shadowed. There is no "true" version of events. The gods are real, but they cannot be comprehended.
Gray Richardson 05-12-07, 05:56 PM	First of all, I know that there are different mythos concerning the creation of the world of Toril. Brian R. James' A Grand History Of The Realms, for example, tells the origin of the world with two mythos: the first, the War of Light and Darkness well discussed here, and the sarrukh-origin mythos of the World Serpent. Both couldn't pass simultaneously (or yes?), but there are no doubts of those entities true existance. My first questions are: How can this happen? What relation have these events with the creation of Toril's cosmology?Well, the War of Light & Darkness myth is revealed to us in canon sources, most notably in Faiths & Avatars, and then in the History section of the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting sourcebook which begins "While mythology and religion rarely hold much sway for historians, certain legends are echoed in so many Faerūnian religions that they have become accepted as fact. Thus the history of Faerūn began when Lord Ao created the universe..." and it goes on from there to depict the events from the origin myth as a fact of history. We can't be sure it really happened that way, only that this is what the people of Faerūn accept as fact. Faerūnians also have the benefit of received knowledge from several entities that were present at the time, namely Selūne, Shar, Chauntea, and others. Not that you can take the gods at their word, they are at the very least biased. We also don't know if their recollection of those events can be trusted. Like so many things about gods, their personal histories may actually be changeable based on mortal belief. The Sarrukh would of course have had a different version of the origin myth, and Brian's origin myth for the Sarrukh is his attempt to reconstruct their take on things. I am not so sure that the two myths cannot be reconciled, they might still be the same myth with certain elements emphasized and others deemphasized to promote a particular worldview. Unfortunately the World Serpent is no longer around to be interviewed, though maybe we could make some discoveries by making inquiries at the World Serpent Inn... which leads me to your next question:Were do the scaled deities inhabit (I'm thinking in House of Nature at first glance, but that's a quick and simple solution)? Were did the World Serpent inhabit when that entity was a true deity?Some of them we know: Laogzed lives in Deep Caverns, Sseth is imprisoned on his layer of Smaragd in the Abyss. We do not know where certain scaly folk deities have their divine realms. Most notably, Shekinester's Court of Light seems to be missing in action. The Court of Light would fit very well on the House of Nature, but it might also be its own plane or part of a plane once populated by scalyfolk gods. Likely Parrafaire lives in Deep Caverns, maybe his mother's Court of Light could be on that plane as well. As for the original homeplane of the World Serpent, I think it very probable that the World Serpent Inn is indeed that former plane. It looks very different now than it once did. There are hints that the bartender Mitchifer may be an avatar of the World Serpent in humanoid guise. Read all about it in Dragon Magazine #351 (http://paizo.com/dragon/products/issues/2007/351)
Valgard 05-16-07, 07:25 AM	Well, that satisfied my curiosity, althought I do not have any copy of Dragon #351.
Gray Richardson 05-16-07, 08:26 PM	Ah, well, I highly recommend it. The article was written by the incomparable Eric Boyd. You can order back issues direct from Paizo.com here: http://paizo.com/dragon/products/issues/2007/351 However, if you do not have access to the wonderful Dragon article above, there is a web enhancement to Manual of the Planes which also details the World Serpent Inn, and you can download that (for free) at this link here: http://www.wizards.com/dnd/files/World_Serpent.pdf
Valgard 05-17-07, 07:03 AM	I'll try to get a look at 'em, thanks.
Razz 05-19-07, 06:56 PM	Very good stuff, Gray Richardson. I do believe you should submit this material to WotC's Digital Initiative when it comes out. Maybe this will finally prompt them to write a darn Book of Fey already.
Gray Richardson 06-11-07, 03:58 AM	I have been dwelling on a line that Eric Boyd wrote about Those Who Sleep Below in the Volo's Guide article in Dragon #355. They were first mentioned in the Sea of Fallen Stars box set. The reference is to a group of powerful evil entities thought to live at the bottom of the Trench of Lopok in the Sea of Fallen Stars. The Dragon article confirmed that there is a portal (at least one, but more are not precluded) in the trench that opens into the Abyss. I assume it opens into the Abyssal Ocean. Those Who Sleep Below were confirmed to be a coterie of aquatic obyrith lords including Dagon among their number. Blibdoolpoolp has also long been associated with Those Who Sleep Below, and Eric has suggested online in another forum that Blibdoolpoolp was probably originally an obyrith lord. Any aquatic obyrith may also have been numbered as one of the members. Perhaps Bechard was one, before he got beached in Yeenoghu's realm. Not sure how recent that was. Something James Jacobs said in another thread, about Obyriths being pre-humanoid, and therefore not typically shaped like anything humanoid. I wondered if that would disqualify Blibdoolpoolp. For, although she has a lobster head, she has a woman's body. Does that mean she couldn't have been an obyrith? The more I thought about it, I began to think that a humanoid body would not necessarily disqualify Blibdoolpoolp from having started out as an obyrith. She might have changed her form from something more crustacean or horrific around the time she ascended to godhood. At some point she became the goddess of kuo-toa, themselves a piscine, humanoid race that appear to have evolved from fish. Then I thought further about Ramenos and how he was a deity with a transformative message and would seem to have led the aquatic creator race (perhaps an octopoid, sea-dwelling people) to transform and adapt to the land becoming the froglike, amphibious batrachi, the ancestors of the bullywugs, gripli and sivs. I wonder if Blibdoolpoolp was allied with Ramenos back in the day. Maybe Ramenos sponsored her ascension from an obyrith to demi-godhood. I wonder if she transformed her own body in the manner of Ramenos to become humanoid. Perhpaps she led the Kuo-Toa out of the sea, just like Ramenos did for his people. It might also explain why Blibdoolpoolp lairs in the plane of the Fated Depths, and no longer in the Abyss. The plane of the Fated Depths is an oceanic outer plane, associated (I presume) with the aquatic creator race. There is a reference in the Sea of Fallen Stars to an ancient aquatic pantheon called the Great School. I figure these were the former gods of the pre-transformatin aquatic creator race before Ramenos (who is an aspect of the World Serpent) came along and wiped them all out in his monotheistic zeal. I figure the plane of the Fated Depths was once more of an aquatic paradise many millenia ago, before Ramenos eliminated his competition and turned the plane to evil. Heck, come to think of it, Those Who Sleep Below might all have been allies of Ramenos. The Trench of Lopok and its opening to the Abyss would have been right in the middle of the Batrachi Empire (assuming it was based around the Sea of Fallen Stars area) back before the Batrachi were wiped out--presumably by the same Falling Stars event that formed the sea, which itself may have been concurrent with the Tearfall event that spawned the dragon race and their subsequent dominion over Faerūn.
Gray Richardson 06-11-07, 04:06 AM	One other possible obyrith lord for your consideration: Moander is thought to have been an ascended demon prince. His realm used to be (although this has not been confirmed I don't think in the 3e scheme) in the 223rd layer of the Abyss also called Rarandreth or Offalmound. He is not in any way humanoid. If Moander was indeed once a demon prince, who later ascended to godhood, I think it very likely he was an obyrith and not Tanar'ri. Although, come to think of it, there are a surprising number of similarities between Jubilex and Moander. And Jubilex is missing from the Abyss of the Realms. Ghaunadaur has assumed Jubilex's name as an alias, and it has long been theorized that Ghaunadaur ate or absorbed Jubilex (or at least his Faerūnian avatar/fragment/aspect). But I wonder if Moander might truly, secretly, have been Jubilex ascended to godhood. That's an iffy proposition, mind you, but something to think about.
Valgard 06-11-07, 07:24 AM	Something James Jacobs said in another thread, about Obyriths being pre-humanoid, and therefore not typically shaped like anything humanoid. I wondered if that would disqualify Blibdoolpoolp. For, although she has a lobster head, she has a woman's body. Does that mean she couldn't have been an obyrith? It's not unknown for deities to take a shape appealing, in the divine sense, to worshippers. If Blibdoolpoolp was an Obyrith Lady and as such, not humanoid, after ascending to godhood probably she took a better aspect (appereance, not avatar) to attract kuo-toas. That's not being specified, but the "woman's body" of Blibdoolpoolp is probably a "kuo-toa woman's body".
ripvanwormer 06-11-07, 10:29 AM	That's not being specified, but the "woman's body" of Blibdoolpoolp is probably a "kuo-toa woman's body". Not in the illustrations I've seen (http://jrients.tripod.com/otus/otusddg_files/image007.jpg). Blibdoolpoolp has a human woman's body and a lobster's head; neither aspect seems likely to be tailored to appeal to kuo-toas. If she was trying to look like something kuo-toas would recognize, one would think she'd have a kuo-toa's body and a kuo-toa's head. Instead, she's more like Lolth in her nonhumanoid giant spider form, a being that appears as an entirely different species from those who worship her. I'd also venture that it means she's not an obyrith; humanoid body and nonhumanoid head is a classic tanar'ri trait. It's true that Pazuzu is (or was) an obyrith, but Pazuzu's a very adaptable being who decided to move with the times. Blibdoolpoolp is ancient being who has, along with the race that worships her, explicitly failed to adapt to the changing tides of the seas, too lost in madness and secrets to notice how different the waters are. So she's very obyrithlike in attitude, but very unobyrith in appearance. Perhaps her appearance is that of an ancient aquatic race that died out when the kuo-toas were in their youth. She could have been a goddess of that older race who their kuo-toa slaves adopted, and for that reason survived the death of the rest of her pantheon. Or perhaps the images of her that the kuo-toa have made look entirely different, but the idols that are most commonly seen by humans were actually created by a vanished human civilization, conquered long ago by the kuo-toas, their religious images repurposed to serve the very different kuo-toan faith.
MarkusTay63 06-11-07, 02:44 PM	Very interesting topic, indeed. You know, if Blibdoolploop and Lolth got together (literally), and swapped body parts, we'd have one good lookin' broad and a Lobster-headed spider. :D I was planning on bringing The Dark God into FR via Kara-Tur's Spitirt World, by having him corrupt a part of it and hence creating the Shadoworld. This was originally planned as to allow some of 3e's OA to be useable in FR, but it has since taken on a life of its own thanks to you and others here. I was planning on eventually connecting him to Panzuriel as well, somewhere down the line when I get to Zakhara (I wanted the island region for a pirate-style campaign, and was going to use Panzuriel to create a D&D version of the Pirates of Dark Waters style threat). Perhaps Panzuriel is an aspect of the dark God? Who truly knows the inner workings of the gods.... ;) As far as different 'realities' having completely seperate aspects of Gods, I've had to somehow combine my own desire to use canon with my love of the multiverse... so I used canon lore to do it! :D In the 2e sources, we were given a new type of devine entity known as a 'Manifestation' (in regards to the Mulhorandi Pantheon). So if we run with that, then when a god needs to form a presence in a new sphere (and is invited by that worlds Overgod to do so), then he/she creates a Manifestation - basically a self-aware Avatar that is a seperate entity - to go to the new plane and be 'god'. The original deity loses one of his Avatars for a time, and the new being probably starts out as a demi-god or maybe a lesser God for a short time, until he is able to fully 'Manifest' (sort of like an embryonic stage for a god). After a short time collecting worship, he will be as good as the original. In this way I can justify why each plane has its own version of a god, and yet feel that somehow they are all part of some greater whole. Very good stuff, Gray Richardson. I do believe you should submit this material to WotC's Digital Initiative when it comes out. Maybe this will finally prompt them to write a darn Book of Fey already.If you ever do your Netbook of the Planes over at the Keep, Gray, I volunteer to do Fäerie. :D It's my favorite demi-plane, and I already have a TON of stuff on it, both canon and folklore. It's a bit of a pain to do, because we have Fey originating on Toril - yet nearly EVERY world has Fey. Fortunately Fey are masters of Paradox and time-twisting. ;) Question: Where is Ramenos from (source)?
Gray Richardson 06-11-07, 08:57 PM	I'd also venture that it means she's not an obyrith; humanoid body and nonhumanoid head is a classic tanar'ri trait.True, that was my reasoning too. But Eric Boyd had suggested that he feels she has Obyrith origins. So I was trying to make sense of that idea. And I think it works if you throw Ramenos into the mix. Here is my thinking: You have a relatively stable civilization of aquatic octopoids (ancestors of the Tako and Blue-Ring Octopi and Doppelgangers, possibly the dark tentacles as well) which were the nascent stage of the aquatic creator race, living in the trackless sea and surrounding oceans, possibly as far away as the shores of Kara-Tur, where the Tako still thrive. They have some mild, natural, shapeshifting ability, not anything magical, just some natural camouflage they can do by altering the color and texture of their skin--just like many real-world species of octopus can do. They are a diverse and promising species, with a large pantheon of aquatic gods (The Great Shcool) that includes a broad spectrum of alignments and portfolios, much as the surface world has today. This pantheon probably even included Panzuriel. Now, along comes Ramenos, an aspect of the World Serpent. Back in the day he was a charismatic leader (as contrasted with his somnolent aspect today) He was in one of his manic phases. While in the current age he looks froglike, I imagine back then he appeared as an eel, or a sea-snake, or maybe as some kind of octopus-snake hybrid. Heck, I don't know, maybe he looked like a big tadpole. A 30 foot tall, sleek, black tadpole, with huge pointy teeth. I can only guess at what he first appeared to them as, but I doubt it was as a frog. Now, Ramenos gets these diverse aquatic nations excited. He has a powerful message of unity. A message of manifest destiny. A message that they are destined to conquer the world. And a message that in order to conquer the world they have to transform themselves, to become amphibious, to grow backbones and move up and out onto the land. Part of this had to do with Ramenos being an aspect of the World Serpent, and the Sarrukh fascination with turning creatures into humanoids. They had some sort of obsession with legs, arms and faces. They seem to have wanted to uplift every creature to humanoid form. Ramenos also greedily hungered for their exclusive worship. He desired with megalomaniacal zeal to bask in the fervent adoration of their entire race. He needed to preach big ideas, and promise big things in order to deliver. Transformation was not a foreign concept to them, but they could not truly shift their shape, they couldn't grow bones and spines. This would take a ritual. This ritual was probably powered by a massive war and sacrifice of numerous enemies of the aquatic creator race, including both untold slaughter of lesser races and the dissenters among the aquatic race and the clergy of all other deities and anyone not on board with Ramenos's plans. In addition to this massive ritual sacrifice, Ramenos consolidated the power he needed from the slaughter of the rest of the aquatic pantheon. He swam through the fated depths, chased them all down and gobbled them up in a feeding frenzy. And this is where he may have enlisted the help of select demon lords including Blibdoolpoolp and Dagon. I think this could have very well been the origin of Those Who Sleep Below. He used this power to transform the octopoids into the amphibious batrachi race, a frog-like humanoid race, comfortable on land and in water. This ritual would have been similar in scope to the kinds of epic magics that transformed the dark elves into the Drow, and select populations of humanoids into the phaerimm and the sharn. Just like aquatic tadpoles turning into frogs, the octopoids metamorphosised into the Batrachi. They marched out of the sea and cut an empire across Faerūn, establishing the heart of their dominion in the shallow wetlands and swamps between and surrounding the four inland seas where the Sea of Fallen Stars is today. I figure he got Blibdoolpoolp excited too. He promised to make her a demi-goddess, he perhaps assisted her in uplifting some large and savage fish into humanoid form to be her own race of servitors--the Kuo-toa. He convinced her that humanoid form is the wave of the future, and she transformed herself into a mockery of a human form, with the body of a female human and the head of a crustacean (well, she probably kept her head.) Prior to this she probably had some horrific, cthulian form with a crustacean theme. I surmise that it was only because of the charismatic appeal of Ramenos that she was persuaded to change her form and ascend to godhood. At least that's how I see it happening. :coolcthul
Gray Richardson 06-11-07, 09:12 PM	In the 2e sources, we were given a new type of devine entity known as a 'Manifestation' (in regards to the Mulhorandi Pantheon). So if we run with that, then when a god needs to form a presence in a new sphere (and is invited by that worlds Overgod to do so), then he/she creates a Manifestation - basically a self-aware Avatar that is a seperate entity - to go to the new plane and be 'god'. The original deity loses one of his Avatars for a time, and the new being probably starts out as a demi-god or maybe a lesser God for a short time, until he is able to fully 'Manifest' (sort of like an embryonic stage for a god). After a short time collecting worship, he will be as good as the original.That's exactly how I see it. An interloper buds off an avatar and invests it with an extra-heaping helping of divine power, assited perhaps by Ao, though maybe not. This avatar takes up residence in the FR cosmos. By fostering its faith and growing its body of worshipers it quickly rises to the power of a regular god. Kind of like starter yeast. The manifestations of the Old Empire gods were a kind of super-avatar, more than a regular avatar, but less than a full god. Some sort of divinity incarnate. I think that they had the same kind of thing going on as other interlopers, but for whatever reason, they could never quite ascend the rest of the way, like the other interloper gods. For instance, Tyr never had their limitations. The Mulan gods retained their physical avatar forms and also had to "possess" humans instead of spinning off new avatars. Something about the Imaskari god barrier may have interefered with the interloping process, beyond just preventing entry into Toril, it may have continued to impede their taking full godly power even after they had found an endaround the barrier.
Gray Richardson 06-11-07, 09:16 PM	Question: Where is Ramenos from (source)?Ramenos is found in Monster Mythology, and I believe he gets a mention in Serpent Kingdoms. He is definitely found in the Mintper's Chapbook series of web articles, specifically this one: Mintper's Chapbook: Part 9 - Hall of Mists (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20011031a).
Gray Richardson 06-12-07, 02:58 PM	Speaking of fractured astrals, I was wondering if the continents of Osse and Katashaka have their own Astral planes, which could increase the total to 6 or more. Katashaka could conceivably share one with Maztica. Or they might be separate. Not sure where Anchorome fits in either. If it is not linked to Maztica's then that would make at least 7 Astrals. I was thinking that if Osse was based on a sort of fantasy Australasian/Polynesian mythololgy, then it could be very well that the Astral plane of Osse embodies their concept of Dreamtime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamtime_(mythology)). If so, then you could substitute the Dream Plane from the Manual of the Planes for their Astral Plane, and it could act as the transitive planar bridge to all their divine realms and planar sites. Even if the Dreamtime doesn't serve in place of their Astral Plane, I imagine it would still be an important plane in their cosmology.
Valgard 06-12-07, 03:31 PM	You're a genious, Gray. :bow:
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 06:09 PM	I was thinking that if Osse was based on a sort of fantasy Australasian/Polynesian mythololgy, then it could be very well that the Astral plane of Osse embodies their concept of Dreamtime (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dreamtime_(mythology)). If so, then you could substitute the Dream Plane from the Manual of the Planes for their Astral Plane, and it could act as the transitive planar bridge to all their divine realms and planar sites.Definately on the same wave-length here. I have it where the Fey were originally from Osse, but their natural curiousity got the best of them (sort of). Since Fey are intimately tied to the land, they could not go far from Toril to explore the myriad planes, so they came up with a novel idea - they would take their realm WITH THEM! :D In a powerful high-magic ritual, they tore Fäerie (their home) loose from Osse and created a demi-plane in the process, that could move around throughout the multiverse and reach into any other world or plane. The ritual left behind a wasteland on the plateau where their realm once stood, now referred to as the Osse Outback. In this way, the Fey are connected to FR as a creator race, and Fäerie itself becomes part of the aboriginie's 'Dreamtime'. Fäerie is often referred to as the 'realm of dreams', and the current inhabitants would have to travel through their own local astral to get there. It all sort of fits in a dreamy surreal sort of way. ;)
Razz 06-13-07, 08:51 AM	Ramenos is found in Monster Mythology, and I believe he gets a mention in Serpent Kingdoms. He is definitely found in the Mintper's Chapbook series of web articles, specifically this one: Mintper's Chapbook: Part 9 - Hall of Mists (http://www.wizards.com/dnd/article.asp?x=dnd/mc/mc20011031a). Thanks. I've long ago put together a list of official deities in the Realms and it's been stickied here I believe. I'm updating it and this is something new to add. I wasn't sure if Ramenos was Realms official or not, but after reading his entry in Monster Mythology and his mention in Serpent Kingdoms, I don't see why not. It makes total sense. Oh, and being definitely mentioned on the Forgotten Realms website, too, also made it solid.
XHereticX 06-13-07, 07:36 PM	Whoa, what are Nether Scrolls doing in an old temple to some Bullywug deity?
Iakhovas 06-13-07, 07:47 PM	The Nether Scrolls were crafted by the creator races, among them the Batrachi. They were a race of shapeshifters and the ancestors to modern-day bullywugs, dopplegangers, and many other aquatic and amphibioid species. This is one reason why a few of the scrolls may have ended up in an old temple to a Bullywug deity.Whoa, what are Nether Scrolls doing in an old temple to some Bullywug deity?
Old Sage 06-13-07, 08:34 PM	Gray, I haven't forgotten about your PM request. I've just busy with deadlines at the moment. I'll get back to you. ;)
Gray Richardson 06-14-07, 02:18 AM	There are some other prominent places that have unexplored planar infrastructure. There are whole other worlds in the crystal sphere of Realmspace that we must consider. Toril's solar system comprises 8 planets and a few other inhabited bodies. Their names and their primary inhabitants are as follows: 1) Anadia – Anadian halflings, neogi, umberhulks, plainsjan, anadjiin 2) Coliar – Aarakocra, lizardmen, dragons 3) Toril 4) Karpri – Aquatic elves, gnomes, eyes of the deep, aquatic creatures, giant insects 5) Chandos – Humans, dwarves, orcs 6) Glyth – Illithids 7) Garden – Yggdrasil’s Child 8) H’Catha – Beholders Each planet may have its own attendant Astral Plane and perhaps a nexus of planes that it connects to. Following are some speculations about what those "branches" of the Great Tree might look like.
Gray Richardson 06-14-07, 02:45 AM	Halflings: Anadian halflings are a separate species, or at least different subrace from Toril's halflings. They live at the temperate poles of the planet. Not sure if they are even native to Realmspace, they could very well be. Toril's halflings are thought to be interlopers. If Anadia's halfings interloped then they may be from a different world than the halflings of Toril came from. They do not seem to share much in the way of culture. I couldn't find any information about their religious beliefs, so it is unclear if they worship anything resembling the halfling pantheon. There is no way to know what plane their pantheon would inhabit or look like. Neogi: The neogi are interlopers to Realmspace, they ranched umberhulks in the equatorial deserts of Anadia. The neogi pantheon was given in Dragon #214: Kil'lix LE Lesser power of death, murder and poison Ki'tx CE Lesser power of brutality, strength and war P'kk LE Lesser power of fear and tyranny Thrig'ki NE Lesser power of love, envy and jealousy T'zen'kil NE Lesser power of pain, suffering, torture If these gods have managed to interlope into Realmspace and establish divine realms within Anadia's Astral Plane, that could be very interesting. If the gods did not manage to establish a foothold, then native gods of Faerūn such as Cyric, Garagos, Bane, Talona, and Loviatar might have assumed these names as aliases, or might have claimed worship by the neogi outright under their own names. Lords of Madness suggests some different gods for the neogi, including Tharizdun, the Patient One, and Vecna. None of these seem to have a presence in Realmspace, but perhaps they have managed to crossover and have established a foothold in Anadia's planar schema. If not then we could surmise that perhaps Ghaunadaur, Shar, or Velsharoon are using their aliases, or have coopted neogi worship. Neogi are said to be opportunistic in their faith, and so may worship any deity that reflects their personal philosophy, and therefore may have switched allegiance to any number of native gods of Realmspace. How the beliefs of the umberhulks, plainsjan, and anadjiin shape the planes of Anadia is unknown. Their gods, if they have any, are yet a mystery.
Gray Richardson 06-14-07, 03:10 AM	Coliar is inhabited primarily by aarakocra, lizardmen, and dragons, which suggests all manner of exciting planar possibilities. The aarakocra may be interlopers from some other sphere, but I think a more interesting approach would be if the aarakocra of Coliar turn out to be descendants of Aearee spelljamming colonies, or even flying Aearee cities that fled to Coliar to escape the genocide waged by the dragon race some 31,000 years ago, when dragons rose to dominance of Faerūn by exterminating the Avian creator race. Coliar may still have ties to the lost plane of the Aearee gods. In this plane you might find deities such as: Syranita, Remnis (Monster Mythology), Krocca (Dragon #124), K'ooriall and Phraarkilloorm (White Dwarf #39--back when it had semi-official ties to TSR). In addition they might also revere Akadi and Aerdrie Faenya, and if so Coliar's Astral might connect with the plane of Air and with Arvandor. The lizardmen of Coliar might worship Semuanya, or perhaps even Essylliss, and thus Coliar might link to the divine realms of those two gods. Dragon Eyrie would no doubt link to Coliar's Astral, and several if not all the dragon gods would likely be revered by Coliar's dragon population.
Gray Richardson 06-14-07, 03:19 AM	Karpri is inhabited by aquatic elves, gnomes, eyes of the deep, and other aquatic beasties. As such you might expect it to link to: Arvandor, especially the realm of Deep Sashelas Golden Hills where the gnome gods dwell, and Deep Caverns, where the beholder goddess the Great Mother abides. In addition, among Coliar's planes you might find assorted aquatic gods, such as the Great School, Panzuriel, Blibdoolpoolp, and Sekolah. Their astral could easily have ties to the plane of Fated Depths, where evil water gods dwell. Also the Abyssal ocean, if the worship of Dagon, Demogorgon or other aquatic demon lords holds any kind of sway.
Razz 06-14-07, 05:49 PM	The aaracockra were interlopers? I always thought they said they descended from the Aearee? I've something to throw in here for further speculation with Realms races, btw. I know new races in 3E have yet to have any official stand in the Realms, but it's interesting to note that Champions of Valor did semi-officially throw in Raptorans, Goliaths, and Illumians. Of these three, the Raptorans strike me as a perfect race to come not only from Anchorome, but to be descendants of the Aearee. :D
ripvanwormer 06-14-07, 07:37 PM	The aaracockra were interlopers? I always thought they said they descended from the Aearee? Interlopers on Coliar, not Toril. Possibly, they were interlopers on Coliar from Toril.
XHereticX 06-14-07, 07:40 PM	Interlopers on Coliar, not Toril. Possibly, they were interlopers on Coliar from Toril. Or is it the other way around? And I wonder if the Tears of Selune have their own gods and outer planes?
Gray Richardson 06-14-07, 07:44 PM	The aaracockra were interlopers? I always thought they said they descended from the Aearee?When I said they "may be interlopers" I meant only that it is only one possibility. We have no definitive information about how aarakocra came to Coliar. There are several possibilities: They could have come from outside the crystal sphere or from within it. They may have evolved on Coliar, or they may have arrived as colonists on their own volition, or have been brought as slaves by other spelljamming races, or through portals, or some other form of planar travel. The most intriguing possibility in my mind is the idea that they could be the descendants of Aearee refugees/colonists from back when the Avian creator race was ascendant. In an article I wrote for Candlekeep Compendium Vol. VII (http://www.candlekeep.com/compendium/Candlekeep_Compendium-Volume_VII.zip) about the Aearee creator race, I suggested that several Aearee flying cities took to wildspace by use of spelljamming style magic and fled the rage of dragons which appears to have been the downfall of their race. My theory is that some of these cities survived and made it to Coliar where their progeny thrives to this day. This theory is not official though.
Gray Richardson 06-14-07, 08:07 PM	Chandos is another water planet, with floating, unstable islands, that often roll and dip beneath the waves. It is very inhospitable to surface dwellers. The only intelligent humanoids that dwell here are nomadic descendants of two ships of dwarves, humans and orcs that crash landed here many generations ago. It would not seem to have been long enough for pantheons or new planes to have formed within the Astral plane attached to this planet. If anything, I would suspect the planet probably has links to the normal Faerūnian Great Tree, so that when the souls of this world die they go to the Fugue Plane, and when they pray, their prayers are heard by the orc, human and dwarf gods of Faerūn (or the world they came from). There is a host of savage yet robust aquatic life in the ocean. But whether any of it is sentient or has cultures, religions or planes, is simply not known. Maybe some designer will explore this some day. The most intriguing fact about this world is that it has lots of fungi and moss, which exhibit a "predatory awareness". Not sure to what extent the fungi and moss are sentient or have a culture, but if they do worship a god it might be Psilofyr, god of myconids and intelligent fungi. Or possibly Zuggtmoy, demon queen of fungi. This might suggest a connection to either Shedaklah (the 222nd layer of the Abyss) or whatever plane Psilofyr inhabits, be it the House of Nature, or the Grey, or some lost or even entirely new plane.
Gray Richardson 06-14-07, 08:22 PM	Glyth is the illithid planet. It is dominated by mind flayers, so I imagine the largest plane or divine realm in it's branch of the Astral would be Illsensine's Caverns of Thought. I am curious whether Illsensine of Glyth lives in the plane of Deep Caverns, where his realm attaches to the Faerūnian Great Tree, or if he has his own plane/realm within Glyth's network of planes. Illithids fled Glyth as refugees (from what we don't know, but we can guess probably it was vengeful Githyanki) over 12,000 years ago and settled in Faerūn. Illsensine appears to have entered Faerūn's cosmology around that time and established his divine realm in the plane of Deep Caverns. Another interesting question is whether Illsensine of Glyth is the same as the lllsensine of Faerūn. To what extent Faerūn's Illsensine is an aspect or avatar or fragment of Glyth's Illsensine is an open question. It may just be one god, or they could have been separated by so much time and space that they have diverged and become distinct entities from one another. If it is just one god, then his divine realm might be one and the same for both worlds connect to both astrals. Or he might have two distinct realms that could be connected by portal or a soft planar border between the two. :coolcthul Glyth has a plethora of human and humanoid slaves to serve and feed the illithid overseers. To what extent they worship gods and if these gods have planes that attach to Glyth is also unknown, but a concept worth exploring.
Gray Richardson 06-14-07, 08:40 PM	Garden is called a planet, but it is not really a planet so much as a group of asteroids or planetoids bound together by a cosmic-sized tree. This titanic plant is named (by others) Yggdrasil's Child. It is not known if it is sentient, though many people suspect it may be. It does not communicate. There is a host of verdant plant life growing on the planetoids, which is how the world came to be called Garden. There are (apparently) no native sentient creatures on this world. Aside from the plantlife there is a stable ecosystem including small animals such as rabbits, mice, ferrets, small foxes, etc. Not sure what kind of planar structure (if any) this world would support. I think the most interesting possibility is if Yggdrasil's Child were possibly an arakhor (ancient race of elder treants) or, true to it's name, a fragment or offspring of the Celestial World Tree, itself an aspect of Emmantiensien, the treant god, and a member of the fey pantheon. If so, then Garden might have links to the plane of Faerie as well, or be part of the network of fey backroads and crossroads. It would be very interesting if you could travel to Garden by taking the fey crossroads. I could also see Garden being attached to the Elemental Plane of Wood, as found in the Manual of the Planes. Heck, it might even use the Elemental Plane of Wood in lieu of its own astral plane. That is to say, its astral plane might have the appearance and properties similar to the Elemental Plane of Wood presented in MOP, just as Kara-Tur's Astral appears different from the Silver Void astral known in Faerūn.
Gray Richardson 06-14-07, 09:17 PM	H'Catha, the outer planet of Toril's solar system, is populated entirely by beholders. As such, it's astral probably connects to only one plane and that is the Realm of the Million Eyes, which could be an entire plane here, or maybe just linked to the Great Mothers realm in Deep Caverns. There are only two known beholder gods, the Great Mother and Gzemnid. As I wondered above for Glyth, I wonder if the Great Mother and Gzemnid of H'Catha are the same as those of Faerūn. While I think they are, it is also possible that the Faerūnian and H'Cathan aspects of the gods have been separated long enough and far enough to conceivably become separate entities. But likely not. The Beholders of H'Catha are thought to be interlopers from another crystal sphere by way of spelljamming, and after colonizing H'Catha have completely supplanted or eaten the native ecosystem. Once, long ago, Chauntea was the goddess of all life in all of Realmspace, but she fragmented and contracted long ago, so that the Chauntea of Toril became only the goddess of life on Toril. She presumably left fragments of herself on the other worlds of Realmspace that embodied the life of those planets. Notice that one nickname for Chauntea is "The Great Mother." Chauntea's divine realm in the Great Tree is even called "The Great Mother's Garden". I have a theory that the Great Mother, goddess of beholders may actually be a fragment of Chauntea. Specifically, the portion of her essence which fragmented and contracted around H'Catha. I suspect that H'Catha would have once had a plane akin to the House of Nature, but would have reflected the alien beauty of H'Catha's fauna and flora. When the beholders took over the planet, thousands of years ago, their collective psyche might have molded that fragment of Chauntea into a goddess that reflected their mindset. Evidence against this theory is that the Great Mother (beholder goddess) is known on many worlds in other crystal spheres. Many believe she is a much older goddess than Chauntea. Although, that does not necessarily exclude the possibility that the Great Mother originated in Realmspace and spread from there to other worlds. Other arguments in support of this theory are that Ao (or Chauntea) need not have let the prior god of the Beholders enter the cosmos of Realmspace, and so Chauntea could have answered their prayers and basked in their reverence using the Great Mother's name as an alias. Or she might have battled the newly arrived avatar of the Great Mother and defeated her, absorbing her into her aspect. In Monster Mythology and Lords of Darkness it says the Great Mother is a surprisingly ancient deity that possesses secrets known to no others. I think it very possible that one of those secrets is that the Great Mother and Chauntea were once, long ago, one and the same goddess. :behold:
Razz 06-15-07, 08:22 AM	I could also see Garden being attached to the Elemental Plane of Wood, as found in the Manual of the Planes. Heck, it might even use the Elemental Plane of Wood in lieu of its own astral plane. That is to say, its astral plane might have the appearance and properties similar to the Elemental Plane of Wood presented in MOP, just as Kara-Tur's Astral appears different from the Silver Void astral known in Faerūn. You've read my mind! :D I was about to add in that Garden could be the "Elemental Plane of Wood" from MoTP that spellcasters in Kara-Tur derive part of their magic from when casting spells of the "Wood" type. Also, those with the Wood Creature template from MoTP and the Woodling creature template from Monster Manual 3 could be inhabitants of the planet. Wood Woads are another interesting race that might have a civilization hidden in the planet's depths from Monster Manual 3.
Valgard 06-15-07, 05:55 PM	Aren't you afraid to lose your inventive?
MarkusTay63 06-15-07, 06:54 PM	Once, long ago, Chauntea was the goddess of all life in all of Realmspace, but she fragmented and contracted long ago, so that the Chauntea of Toril became only the goddess of life on Toril. She presumably left fragments of herself on the other worlds of Realmspace that embodied the life of those planets.I thought about this after the last time you mentioned it, and I thought that Jannath should have been the original god, having come first, but I have re-thunked that (yeah, I used 'thunk', so WHAT?) Jannath was probably the fragment that represented Faerūn, after the goddess was inadvertantly shattered by the trauma of the sundering (like that? :D ). Chauntee represented all life and the natural order, much like the goddess Gaia. However, her portfolio was spread all over the place when she became fractured, much the way that the World Serpent became fragmented (and perhaps, on some primordial level, he represents her natural oposite, death and decay being part of the natural order). Either way, Jannath was THE nature god of choice on Faerūn for untold centuries. However, the Ffolk of the Moonshaes had become seperated from the rest of Faerūn, and they practiced much more ancient Druidic traditions by worshipping the Earth Mother (Chauntee). Eventually the faith of Chauntee once again spread throughout the land (through the druidic faith), and her Jannath aspect was assimilated back into her. So you see, Chauntee didn't take over the faith of the Moonshaes, but rather they re-established the old faith in her. This might have occurred in several regions, but others, like Maztica, remain independent of her. As an intersting side note, Chauntee is called Chantee in the east, and her religion is illegal in the island nations (I forget which one off hand).
BrennonGoldeye 06-15-07, 09:46 PM	Markus, may I take you home and keep you in my closet for whenever I need a bloody brilliant explanation? Please? I'll feed you all the Sun Elves you want....:D
Razz 06-16-07, 03:09 AM	This might have occurred in several regions, but others, like Maztica, remain independent of her. As an intersting side note, Chauntee is called Chantee in the east, and her religion is illegal in the island nations (I forget which one off hand). This sounds very intriguing. Because I can see one of her "fragments" as the goddess Maztica, since she is the very creator of that continent and all the life on it. Chauntea having different fragments similar to the World Serpent makes total sense. The nation was Wa, by the way.
Gray Richardson 06-16-07, 04:18 AM	I could see Maztica being a fragment of Chauntea. I could also see her as being the earth/life goddess of the homeworld from which the Mazticans came to Faerūn. The sourcebooks tell us that Mazticans are not native to Toril. Rather, like the humans of Kara-Tur, they arrived on Toril through portals (or other magics) a long, long time ago.
Iakhovas 06-16-07, 09:30 AM	I've seen this mentioned in Powers & Pantheons (p.2), but I've never liked it. Of course, this same page also says that dwarves interloped to Faerūn before elves and we now know that not to be true. In my opinion, it cheapens the non-Faerūnian civilizations to say that their inhabitants are all interlopers.The sourcebooks tell us that Mazticans are not native to Toril. Rather, like the humans of Kara-Tur, they arrived on Toril through portals (or other magics) a long, long time ago.
Razz 06-16-07, 11:27 AM	Whom are they speaking of when they say in Powers&Pantheons (pg. 2) in this quote? ;an influx from a land of desert governed by the seasonal pulse of a mighty river; then an influx from two neighboring lands---one a land of glory and empire, the other a patchwork of city-states and bold philosophies---whose pantheons reflected, but did not precisely duplicate, each other; followed by folk from a more rugged land tied to nature, the sea, and the warrior history of its dozen-king greater god. I believe the first passage speaks of the people of the Old Empires who descended from those living in "Egypt" and became the Mulhorandi. The second sounds like Unther, since their pantheon was a combination of the Sumerian and Babylonian deities, but it actually sounds more like ancient Greece with mention of glory, empires, city-states, and bold philoshopies? The bold text really gets me. I thought they might've been talking about the Netherlands-type people (vikings and the Norse Pantheon), but they actually get mentioned a few paragraphs later in the book. So who're they talking about in that passage, then? Another interesting note, if the people of Kara-Tur are immigrants, what creatures ruled and roamed the lands of Kara-Tur prior to the humans that arrived? Kara-Tur's history is rather short compared to Faerun's. I did remember reading about their being civilizations before the humans of Kara-Tur arrived, but of what race or creatures I don't think it mentions.
ripvanwormer 06-16-07, 02:22 PM	The bold text really gets me. I thought they might've been talking about the Netherlands-type people (vikings and the Norse Pantheon), but they actually get mentioned a few paragraphs later in the book. So who're they talking about in that passage, then? The Daghdha, who is the head of the Celtic pantheon, is the Dozen-King. That's his title. So they're talking about the Celts, without any doubt. The desert and river land is definitely Egypt. The "two neighboring lands" are Greece and Rome. Greece is the place with the city-states and philosophy; Rome is the glory-and-empire place. Their two pantheons reflect, but don't precisely duplicate, each other. It can't be the Sumerians and Babylonians, because they aren't from neighboring lands; they're from the exact same lands.
Gray Richardson 06-16-07, 02:44 PM	I've seen this mentioned in Powers & Pantheons (p.2), but I've never liked it. Of course, this same page also says that dwarves interloped to Faerūn before elves and we now know that not to be true. In my opinion, it cheapens the non-Faerūnian civilizations to say that their inhabitants are all interlopers.Don't forget, this lore is reaffirmed in the 3e FRCS book on p.261: "Through these early portals came natives of these other worlds--dwarves, treants, elves, and mind flayers, in that order." But I also find it problematic that dwarves are listed as first to visit Toril. I think maybe you could rehabilitate the lore by assuming that the dwarves became known to one of the creator races early on, maybe the fey or the Aearee--who seem a bit friendlier--when a portal was opened to a dwarf world. The dwarves could have engaged in trade with their discoverers, maybe even visited or established a lost colony of dwarves in Faerūn during the heyday of the fey or the avians. This dwarven colony might have either fled back through the portal or simply have been wiped out by war with either the dragons, or maybe killed off by the great plague (believed created by a draconic or demonic power) that decimated the sylvan civilization. You know, a good way to rehabilitate this lore would be to postulate that the survivors of this hypothetical colony, under attack, and forseeing their doom, fled to a safehold deep, deep below the Yehimal mountains. There the survivors entreated their gods to put them asleep until such time as the menace was ended. Or alternatively, perhaps an ancestor, maybe even the founding father of the Duergar clan, already showing a powerful psionic wild talent, used "suspend life", a power from the discipline of psychometabolism, to put the survivors into a form of suspended animation. Note, the range on this power is "personal" so if they didn't all have this power it would have had to have been some sort of modified, epic version. Although, I suppose if he were a talented crafter, he could have made a powerful psionic artifact, perhaps something akin to a udoxias, that imbued them all with the suspend life effect and maintained it for the tens of thousands of years necessary before they awoke. Hey, maybe this artifact is still there, deep down below the Yehimals. If so, then these survivors could have awoken from this great sleep many thousands of years later, after the dragon dominion of Faerūn had been broken. They could then have fought their way up, fighting and overcoming the many hazards and perilous denizens of the underdark, to settle in the Yehimals. It was the later dwarven diaspora from the Yehimals outwards into Faerūn, Kara-Tur, and Zakhara by which the dwarven civilizations that we know today were founded. On retrospect, I suppose the first wave of dwarf migrants would need to have been way before the Aearee though, because, if they arrived before the treants, and, assuming treants were brought over by the sylvan creator race, then that means the dwarves were discovered either very early on by the fey, before the treants, or even earlier by the Sarrukh. If it was the Sarrukh, and not the fey, that first opened portals to the dwarf homeworld, then the Sarrukh could have brought dwarves over as slaves. Sarrukh live underground, and might have needed skilled miners to carve great halls and underground complexes for the saurian overlords. These dwarves could have escaped and sought refuge with the fey, or simply have fled to directly to the Yehimals. Whatever the true story of how dwarves came to Faerūn, I think there is fantastic potential here for some really great lore.
Gray Richardson 06-16-07, 03:20 PM	In my opinion, it cheapens the non-Faerūnian civilizations to say that their inhabitants are all interlopers.This lore is also reaffirmed in the FRCS, a little further down on p.261 it says "humans from other worlds migrated to places such ass Kara-Tur, Maztica, and Zakhara." and in Races of Faerūn p.80 it says "However, like many other sentient races, not all humans originated on Abeir-Toril; many humans alive in Faerūn today are descended, at least in part, from immigrants from other worlds." I don't know how many worlds in the D&D multiverse are populated by Meso-American style civilizations. But Greyhawk and Earth both have/had such peoples, and both have had close ties by portal to the Realms. Since many cultures migrated from Earth to Toril over the millennia precisely because of those ties, I assume the Maztican cultures are interlopers from Earth's Central-America; although, I suppose they could have also interloped from Greyhawk, from the civilization that built the Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan (module C1). It occurs to me that not all the Mazticans need have been interlopers, some could have arrived through portals and mixed with native humans that already lived in the area, creating an interesting melange of cultures.
ripvanwormer 06-16-07, 05:42 PM	A curious - really, bizarre - thing about the Sumerian and Babylonian pantheons in D&D (in the first edition of Deities & Demigods and later in On Hallowed Ground) is that they're considered separate from each other. While Ishtar and Inanna are virtually the same deity, D&D exaggerates their differences, and exaggerates the differences between the pantheons they belong to. On Hallowed Ground claims the Sumerian pantheon birthed the Babylonian gods as the people of Mesopotamia grew more orderly and urbanized. This is, however, a unique thing in D&D, and I wondered why the pantheons split so dramatically instead of simply evolving along with its rituals. The Forgotten Realms campaign provides us with an interesting possible answer. During ancient Sumerian times, the Imaskari empire of Toril invaded the world of Earth, its mages enslaving the people of the Tigris and Euphrates river valleys and shipping many of them as slaves through portals back to Toril. The Imaskari were concerned that the local clerics and gods might object to this, so they cast an epic spell, a spell that had yet to be tested anywhere else. With this spell, they sought to banish the influence of the Sumerian gods from the face of the world. The spell was, as it would later be on Toril, mostly successful. The gods themselves were banished, but they were still able to influence the world through avatars. These avatars were cut off from communication with the powers that birthed them, but they were extremely powerful in their own right. So, my theory is this: while the Imaskari spell separated the avatars from their "parent" deities, they changed. They changed in response to the dictatorship of the Imaskari, to the immigration of new peoples from the mountains and other planes. They became, in short, the Babylonian pantheon, and when the power of the Imaskari was finally broken and the Sumerian gods free to return, they refused to reunite. They had, far more than the avatar-kings on Toril would millennia later, grown too different, too independent. They became different deities entirely.
ripvanwormer 06-16-07, 06:42 PM	But I also find it problematic that dwarves are listed as first to visit Toril. I think maybe you could rehabilitate the lore by assuming that the dwarves became known to one of the creator races early on, maybe the fey or the Aearee--who seem a bit friendlier--when a portal was opened to a dwarf world. Monster Mythology (page 118) suggests that it was the dwarves who indirectly destroyed the original world of the fey, forcing them to scatter across the planes. If true, that means the dwarves must have been traveling the various worlds before the fey were. "The myth also describes dwarves as the ones who brought the corrupting evil to the Seelie Court, and because of this, faeries have no love of dwarves and try to prevent them from gaining access to the sylvan realms. However, the dwarves of the myth were not evil and their intentions were good - they thought they were bringing a gift, after all. So while the sylvan gods do not like the dwarven gods, they are not directly hostile to them."
MarkusTay63 06-16-07, 07:04 PM	There is a way of rectifying that, without Villafying the Dwarves too much. The Queen of Air and Darkness took the Black Diamond from the Dwarves, but only Ladinion was corrupted, Not the whole of Fäerie. Therefore, Titania moved her court to another part of Fäerie, but Ladinion is still a part of the original... a dark and twisted part. Also, I can't take credit for the "Chauntee fragmented and each landmass got its own piece". That comes from earlier posts by Gray Richardson, and I merely built upon it with the sundering and the Moonshaes. Good ideas don't usually come from a single mind, but are built upon the foundations laid by others. ;) I would go with only one, perhaps two, tribes of people who were brought over from another world into Maztica. We have at least two sources claiming Monkey brought groups over from Kara-Tur and another that claims that their are linguistic connections between the two groups. Since the Kara-Turans (Lung peoples) were originally from another world, that seems OVERLY redundant. Perhaps it is THAT group that the Maztican text refers to, the ones that were originally from Kara-Tur who were in turn from yet another world. Personally I don't like that the Lung came from Earth, but prefer that they, along with the Emerald Empire of Oerth and our RW Orientals all hail from yet another sphere, after some disaster caused their people to flee to other worlds. I believe there is one called 'Jadespace', and that would make a perfect starting point for the Oriental races throughout the multiverse.
ripvanwormer 06-16-07, 07:37 PM	There is a way of rectifying that, without Villafying the Dwarves too much. The Queen of Air and Darkness took the Black Diamond from the Dwarves, but only Ladinion was corrupted, Not the whole of Fäerie. I'm inclined to think that Ladinion was the whole of Faerie. That's why the book says, "The Seelie Court was forced to take flight across the planes." Because that entire plane was made uninhabitable. Maybe Ladinion was an entire multiverse, an independent cosmology inhabited by the leShay. As the Epic Level Handbook said: "LeShay are the mere remnant of a once-great race whose origins are lost to history. They claim to predate the current multiverse and refer darkly to some catastrophe that not only wiped out most of their people but changed time so that their era never existed, even in the remotest past." Maybe the destruction of Ladinion was that catastrophe. As for the dwarves, as the book says, they didn't do it on purpose. There's no reason to vilify them. I only meant to use the passage as evidence that they explored the planes before the fey did.
MarkusTay63 06-16-07, 08:02 PM	Now I'm thinking that Ladinion is actually on Toril somewhere, which would explain why the original Fey (Le'Shay?) left. After all, they were one of the creator races before they were cosmic plane-hoppers with their own demi-plane. Ladinion, and the Unseelie court, located on Toril... Hmmmm... :plotting: Would also tie into the Dwarves pre-dating the Elves, since the Dwarves dealt with the Fey (that event probably happened on Toril itself). Their original home became 'polluted' as it were, and they either had to create a new one, or 'grow' one from a piece of the old (perhaps a HUGE tree in the center of the new demi-plane?) Then we have the Fey leaving, taking a piece of their homeworld with them (in one form or another), because they are tied to the 'earth' (not our world, but rather a metephysical representation of nature itself). Fey that did not leave would then have to establish smaller 'spiritual' connections to the Realms, hence creatures like Dryads and Fossergrim.
ripvanwormer 06-16-07, 08:50 PM	Now I'm thinking that Ladinion is actually on Toril somewhere I don't think so. That would undermine the idea that dwarves came to Toril first, if the fey were native to Toril. The "deep sylvan realms," as Monster Mythology defined them, are essentially demiplanes, the equivalent of the "fading lands" that the same author described in From the Ashes. I guess I'd personally rather see a plane (or a multiverse!) destroyed than just rendering part of one planet waste. Ladinion, and the Unseelie court, located on Toril... The Unseelie Court left, too. In 2e, the Queen of Air and Darkness relocated to Pandemonium. In the Great Tree cosmology, they should be on the plane of Faerie now.
MarkusTay63 06-17-07, 02:27 AM	I don't think so. That would undermine the idea that dwarves came to Toril first, if the fey were native to Toril.How so? :uh-huh: Are you confusing the Elves with Fey, because otherwise I'm not getting you. The Fey came FIRST. I know according to most of the lore we have on the Creator races have them coming fourth, but that makes VERY little sense if they are the same Fey that are now multi-spheric and dwell in Fäerie. I figure it was their creations, the fey races, that scholars first began to see after the other Creator Races fell, not the Fey themselves. If they came fourth, that would place them on Toril after -30,000 DR. By -24,500 Fäerie was already well established enough for the fall of Tintageer to happen. That only leaves them 5,500 years to evolve, build a civilization, and either migrate to Fäerie or create it (which makes more sense). Then they would have to have split into their hundreds, perhaps thousands, of diverse forms, and somehow 'give birth' to the Elves (which I peg as the mortal children of the immortal Fey, somehow tying into their leaving Toril and their Fey powers diminishing over time) in that short time. In human terms thats plenty of time for all that, but Elvish civilizations are longer lasting then humans, so the Fey's should be even more so. 5,500 years is nothing to immortal creatures. Thats why I'm thinking they started out WAY back, perhaps as far back as -50,000. The Dwarves migrated to Toril most likely through The Underland, which is detailed in Beyond Countless Doorways. That work is not WotC, but it was written by the original Planescape team, so I would consider it closer to canon then any other 3rd party source. The Underland is basically a planar pathway that connects to the deep Underdark on all worlds, and explains much (I think thats how the Drow spread too). Anyhow, the Dwarves probably came by whatever mean they did and happily inhabited the vast Yehimal range for uncounted millenia. That Mountain Range is like a Dwarven paradise, and they could have had hundreds of kingdoms in it without ever leaving. Then, for whatever reason, they left that range around -12,000 (I have my suspicians about why) and spread throughout the world. That doesn't mean that they couldn't have been in the Yehimals the whole time, way before the Elves entered Toril in -24,500. At some point a group of Dwarves discovered the Black Diamond in the Fey's original homeland (Ladinion), which through a series of events destroyed it. Doesn't it make sense that that is when the Fey fled Toril for Fäerie? We have Fey originally on Toril as a Creator Race. We have a canon source stating that they fled their first 'world', and finally we have Fäerie in place in -24,500 from which the Elves fled. It all kinda fits, if you just place Ladinion on Toril. I always pictured them coming from Osse, but now with all of this I'm rethinking that. If those were the Dwarves from the Yehimal, then the Fey (Le'Shay) should have started out in Kara-Tur, which actually makes loads of sense because Fäerie is closely related to the oriental Spirit World (they're actually the same in folklore). So the original Fey could have been the Maraloi, or the Maraloi could have been their decendents which stayed behind (which is more what I'm thinking). If we run with this, then the Hanya Maut Wasteland (southeast from Ulgarth, across the Yehimals) could have easily been Ladinion. The location fits with all of this, so I'm kinda liking this a lot.
Gray Richardson 06-17-07, 03:17 AM	Dwarves may have arrived before the elves, but as for the fey, the fey have always been on Toril. The fey are one of the 5 creator races which including the Sarrukh, Fey, Batrachi, Aearee and Humans. All 5 races are native, and thus did not migrate to Toril from other worlds. The fact that they are native does not preclude the possibility of other versions of theses races arising on other worlds. Humans have evolved on many worlds. Bullywugs, grippli, doppelgangers, tako, and other descendants of the Batrachi are native to other worlds. Same with aarakocra. Not sure about the Sarrukh, they may actually be unique to Faerūn. But the fey are definitely native to many worlds. It is not known if the fey of Toril as we know them today, are the same as the Fey creator race. It could be that they were always the collection of sprites, nymphs, satyrs, korreds, etc. that we know today. Or there might have been a single, more august and majestic fey creator race that was the progenitor of the fey races, but which is absent in the current age. The FRCS has mentioned that the Fey creator race was fragmented by a mysterious disease of possibly draconic or demonic origin. By "fragmented" it is unclear if the FRCS meant simply decimated/reduced in number or actually meant "fragmented" as in the sense of split into many multiple subraces. If there was formerly a single fey creator race, people have suggested it might be the Seelie and Unseelie fey--which Manual of the Planes suggests to stat as elves with the celestial or fiendish templates respectively. While some people have suggested using the LeShay (from the Epic Handbook) as the fey creator race. I am not sure that the LeShay work as the fey creator race for Faerūn. Although their stats might seem right, and they do have the right kind of flavor to be the creator race, but the backstory of the LeShay does not work so well with what we know of Toril's history, given what we do know (which is admittedly little) about the history of the fey. The fey creator might have been something very like the LeShay, but I don't think it actually was the LeShay. Although, heck, if I were designing a fey creator race, I might make it some kind of uber-sprite with nymph-like abilities, such as the ability to walk through and/or into trees, plants and other natural features such as rocks, streams, cliffs, etc. I would probably give them the ability to "possess" plants and natural features in the same way some fiends can possess people and objects. Toss in some basic elemental control abilities, and you have a suped-up fey worthy of the creator race title. Not that they need to be so powerful. Sure the Sarrukh were fairly powerful, but the Aearee don't seem to have been much more than bird-men. Humans are a creator race, and yet humans are fairly weak an powerless as a species. "Creator race" does not necessarily imply powers far beyond the ken of mortal men. So the fey creator race might have just been a run-of-the-mill sprite or nymph variant. Or then again, there may have been no single fey forebear, they might have always existed as the diverse collection of nature spirits/beings that they are today.
XHereticX 06-17-07, 11:39 AM	Hmm, a lot of the history behind many races in the core books don't seem to roll very well with Toril's backstory. I know you once mentioned someplace where everything is translated in Torilian terms (like the whole Wind Dukes of Aaqa thing in HoTA). You have a link Gray?
Gray Richardson 06-17-07, 12:43 PM	I think what you are talking about is Eric Boyd's conversion notes for converting the Adventure Path campaigns in Dungeon Magazine from Greyhawk into Forgotten Realms. Please note, the conversion notes are not exactly canonical, but more apocryphal. They contain suggestions for using the adventures in Faerūn and inserting them seamlessly into the geography, history and cultures of the Realms. While not exactly canonical, the ideas Eric wrote for the conversion make for some pretty nifty reading. I would not be surprised if some of his ideas and plot points do actually "worm" their way into canon some day. For Age of Worms you need: Age of Worms Overload (http://paizo.com/paizo/news/dungeon) And for the Savage Tide you need: Savage Tide Conversion Notes (http://paizo.com/paizo/news/dungeon/v5748eaic9kcu) Also, check out this page for many other downloads from DUNGEON (http://paizo.com/paizo/news/dungeon) including maps, web enhancements and supplementary material from specific issues, including some Realms conversion notes for specific adventures: DUNGEON NEWS PAGE (http://paizo.com/paizo/news/dungeon)
MarkusTay63 06-17-07, 12:50 PM	The fact that they are native does not preclude the possibility of other versions of theses races arising on other worlds. Humans have evolved on many worlds. Bullywugs, grippli, doppelgangers, tako, and other descendants of the Batrachi are native to other worlds. Same with aarakocra. Not sure about the Sarrukh, they may actually be unique to Faerūn. But the fey are definitely native to many worlds.Because there are multispheric Fey (from Fäerie), and most worlds have connections to that plane in deep Sylvan Realms, it makes much more sense that the Fey spread throughout the cosmos from a single source, rather then from some sort of 'parrallel evolution' which you seem to fall back on quite a bit. The only other non-Torilian race I know of that may be related to the Sarrukh are the Saurials (and their copies, the Lacerials from Malatra). Fact: the earliest sources referring to the creator races descrides a sauroid race. NOT reptilians, NOT serpent. Sauroids are warm blooded, which may go a long way to explain why their powers don't work on themselves or Dragons. Thier 'mutating ability' only effects cold-blooded scaled creatures, so I doubt it has any effect on Saurials. The Fey were/are a magical race that had powerful connections to nature, which probably empowered many of their wonderous abilities. They had the supernatural ability to change their form at will, go ethereal (to enter the 'spirit realm'), and probably some sort of racial telepathy or at least empathy. If the original immortal Fey still exist at all, I would say that they live in Fäerie, and all the others are just lower-powered decendents. So the Le'Shay do not have to actually be the originals, and the template ones could just be a different branch. When dealing with the Fey, their could literally be thousands of correct ways of portraying them now. Perhaps Titania and Oberon are the last of the originals, and the bloodline weakens with each generation. So no one likes the idea that Ladinion was on Toril, and thats what drove the Fey away? :( And who's to say that ALL races didn't start out on Toril? Maybe Toril is the cosmic version of the 'Cradle of Civilization", or maybe some sort of Laboratory of the Gods in aeons past. Perhaps from Toril all the rest of the Universe was 'seeded' with the proto-races, many of which have evolved into forms very different from each other. It would be a good reason why their are literally hundreds of intelligent species on Toril, many of which occupy the same niche. Also a good reason for all those portals too. ;) Sorry for deviating from the original intent of this thread Gray, but I figure the origins of Toril (and its purpose) tie-in to the topic.
XHereticX 06-17-07, 01:27 PM	I think what you are talking about is Eric Boyd's conversion notes for converting the Adventure Path campaigns in Dungeon Magazine from Greyhawk into Forgotten Realms. Please note, the conversion notes are not exactly canonical, but more apocryphal. They contain suggestions for using the adventures in Faerūn and inserting them seamlessly into the geography, history and cultures of the Realms. While not exactly canonical, the ideas Eric wrote for the conversion make for some pretty nifty reading. I would not be surprised if some of his ideas and plot points do actually "worm" their way into canon some day. For Age of Worms you need: Age of Worms Overload (http://paizo.com/paizo/news/dungeon) And for the Savage Tide you need: Savage Tide Conversion Notes (http://paizo.com/paizo/news/dungeon/v5748eaic9kcu) Also, check out this page for many other downloads from DUNGEON (http://paizo.com/paizo/news/dungeon) including maps, web enhancements and supplementary material from specific issues, including some Realms conversion notes for specific adventures: DUNGEON NEWS PAGE (http://paizo.com/paizo/news/dungeon) Yup, Boyd's a genius as usual. Thanks
Gray Richardson 06-17-07, 04:58 PM	Because there are multispheric Fey (from Fäerie), and most worlds have connections to that plane in deep Sylvan Realms, it makes much more sense that the Fey spread throughout the cosmos from a single source, rather then from some sort of 'parrallel evolution' which you seem to fall back on quite a bit.I am not particularly wed to the notion of parallel evolution, the panspermia theory has its merits too. I do believe that many races have either spread themselves (exogenesis) or been seeded by their gods (panspermia) on other worlds of the Multiverse. Dragons are a good example. Io (known in the Realms as Asgorath) does appear to have seeded Toril with dragon eggs in the Tearfall event (see the 2e Draconomicon and Dragons of Faerūn). The Dwarf gods and Gnome gods may have placed the progenitors of Toril's dwarves and gnomes deep within the earth to awake and multiply their race, at least that is what their myths tell us. But I don't think that the panspermia theory works as an explanation in all cases. I think it very probable that the same kinds of fantasy races arise again and again throughout the D&D multiverse, and I think in many cases their evolution may be unrelated, independent and parallel to other worlds. But I do know that it is established in lore that there are 5 races (6 if you include giants who are a special case) that are definitely native to Toril. Sarrukh, Fey, Batrachi, Aearee and Humans (and Giants). That does not preclude other races being native either, although most of the major ones have been established as interlopers.The only other non-Torilian race I know of that may be related to the Sarrukh are the Saurials (and their copies, the Lacerials from Malatra).It is established that Saurials are interlopers from another world. They are dinosaur people, and do not appear to be related to the Sarrukh, despite various references to the Sarrukh as Sauroids or Saurians in older lore.So no one likes the idea that Ladinion was on Toril, and thats what drove the Fey away?I am not too keen on the idea of Ladinion being the Realms. I think it more likely that Ladinion is another world in another Crystal Sphere, but whatever the truth, Ladinion is a very intriguing mystery.And who's to say that ALL races didn't start out on Toril? Maybe Toril is the cosmic version of the 'Cradle of Civilization", or maybe some sort of Laboratory of the Gods in aeons past. Perhaps from Toril all the rest of the Universe was 'seeded' with the proto-races, many of which have evolved into forms very different from each other.From all accounts, Toril is a younger world than most of the universe. Ed Greenwood has suggested that the knowledgeable sages of Faerūn believe the world to be about 70,000 years old (give or take) and it has recorded history only going back about 35,000 years so far. Compared to Eberron and Greyhawk, I believe they have recorded history going back hundreds of thousands of years. That is not to say that Toril really IS only 70,000 years old. It could have evolved naturally over the course of millions or billions of years. It really is one of those open questions to which there are no definitive answers. But taken from the context that people believe AO created Toril's crystal sphere. And given the physics of it all as described in the Realmspace supplement, it does seem probable that Toril is a world created by gods. And if it really was created by gods, then the 70,000 year old figure suggested by Ed Greenwood has a little more weight than any other origin dating. In light of this lore, it makes it improbable that Toril is the origin point for many of the older races in the Multiverse. I think the "parallel evolution" theory is easier to accept if one assumes there are some cosmic constants, or cosmic memes, or fundamental properties of the Multiverse that makes it easy, even probable for life in the D&D Multiverse to evolve along certain pathways. The physical forms of these species/races may be one of those harmonics or archetypes of the Multiverse that life snaps to as it arises on any give world. There may be multiple "anthropic priciples" at work. Perhaps there is an "elfthropic principle" and an "orcthropic principle" and a "dwarfthropic principle" which guide species to evolve to fill the ecological niches, or particular environmental configuration of each world. Perhaps these are ideal forms that simply out compete other phenotypes when vying to climb the evolutionary ladder. One could also theorize that this parallel evolution is guided by higher order overgods that keep track and intervene (invisibly) to influence such things. I am sure the sages of Faerūn, Greyhawk and other worlds speculate endlessly about the origins of life on various worlds and why they are so similar. No doubt they have tons of creative and interesting theories. It is probably as fun a preoccupation for them as it is for us.
MarkusTay63 06-17-07, 09:32 PM	I'm still not 100% sure on exactly how the Fey relate to the rest of the Universe, but I hate that they originated on Toril because they are one of the 'Elder Races' in my opinion. One of the oldest known races originating on one of the newest worlds never really sat well with me. :thinks: however, I have been toying with the idea that Fey were created whole..... At the END of Time!!! :eek: They were created by the Gods to combat some ultimate evil, which they were successful in stopping. In effect, they saved the Universe, which was then allowed to continue. For whatever reason, the gods caused the Fey to live in REVERSE to the other races (maybe do to some clause in the cosmic balance thingie). So they all started out like Sor 30, Ftr 30, Clr 30 (lev 90), and now get less powerful and younger (and smaller) as they use power and age (in reverse). So they started out at the end of time, and by the time their race makes it all the way back to the 'big bang' they will be just as weak and helpless as all other beginning lifeforms. Its a weird theory, and full of bugs, but their are a couple of reason I haven't abandoned it completely. For one, Fey have always had certain 'time anomalies' centered around them, and sometimes time runs really fast or really slow in their presence (that could be chalked up to the plane of Fäerie, though). Second, and this one is REALLY out there - I'm thinking that the threat to the universe is centered somehow around the Illithid. They defeated the Illithid, which was their purpose, but the Mind Flayers escaped back through time, so that the gods set the Fey as the eternal gaurdians of the natural order, forever vigilant against the depredations of the Illithids and their unatural aberration spawn. That is why the Fey live in reverse, they are forever sworn to gaurd against them whenever they might appear. Weird, I know, and definately not one of my best theories, but I like the idea of some sort of eternal srtuggle between the natural order and creatures from the Far Realms.
Razz 06-17-07, 10:34 PM	Several questions: 1) What is this Ladinion being spoken of? 2) Did I read correctly that it was stated in Realmslore that Monkey migrated humans from Kara-Tur to Maztica? Where is this said? 3) What are the Lacerians? What module or source are they from? 4) What or who are the Malaroi? I think I remember reading a passage about them in a Kara-Tur supplement. 5) What is this Black Diamond I am seeing being mentioned? Also, I can't remember the source, but I dinstinctly remember reading from official Realmslore that the natives of the Great Glacier's ancestors also were immigrants from Kara-Tur, particularly Shou Lung.
MarkusTay63 06-19-07, 12:42 AM	I apologize once again Gray, but I feel some of this caused confusion and he deserves some definitions here. Before I go on, you reccomended a sourcebook recently in another thread concerning the Fey, and I can't find the thread now. I had problems going to that site or seeing that preveiw from MY computer, but I would like to try from someone else's computer because I love every bit of Fäerie lore I can get my hands on. Could you possibly post the link again.... please? :D Ladinion - Titania is the Fäerie Queen, and the monarch of the Seelie Fey. Her sister, who's name has either been forgotten with time or struck from all records became the Queen of Air and Darkness, the ruler of the Unseelie Fey. She used the power of the Black Diamond to corrupt the Fäerie Court, createing a blasted wasteland called Ladinion, which forced her sister, Titania, to move her court. All of this was covered in 2e's Monster Mythology, an excellent source BTW. Monkey - The one source I know of that has this piece of information is Once around the Realms, which describes Monkey having led a group of Issacortae through a portal to Maztica, via Pandemonium. In City of Gold, I believe their is a linguistic connection to the Wu-Haltai. Both of those peoples are OLD races that lived in Kara-Tur even before the Lung (Shou) peoples, and they still live there. I think someone mentioned a reference to Monkey having led Kara-Turans over to Maztica in yet another source, but I don't recall which (it was in the Kara-Tur thread I believe). Lacerials - Basically, they are an exact copy of the Saurials (sauroids) living in Malatra, the jungle region to the south of Kara-Tur, and were revealed in the RPGN's Malatra campaign setting (along with the Katanga, which are just southern Hengyokai). In fact, the Saurials and Lacerials are most likely from the same world, since both are originally non-natives - I believe there is some 3e material for the Saurials in the web enhancment for Serpent Kingdoms. Maraloi - Very little is known about this mysterious race, because all that is left of it are ancient ruins. The ruins indicate that they probably were not human, and may have been related to the Spiritfolk, Fey, or even Elves in some way. Nothing is known for sure except that they dissappeared completely thousands of years ago. Black Diamond - This was a unique gemstone discovered in a mine by Dwarves and was brought to the Fäerie Court as a gift for Queen Titania. Her sister, the Queen of Air and Darkness took it for herself, and it's evil changed her and gave her 'dark powers'. The fact that the Dwarves were involved gives some indication that the Dwarves interacted with the Fey long ago, perhaps even before coming to Toril. Now back to the order of the creation of the planes. Personally, I think the Far Realms came before everything, and was the primordial 'soup' that all other things arose from.
Razz 06-19-07, 08:34 AM	<snip> Now back to the order of the creation of the planes. Personally, I think the Far Realms came before everything, and was the primordial 'soup' that all other things arose from. Thanks, very enlightening :D The Maraloi sound very intriguing and the part about Monkey taking Kara-Turans to Maztica also sounds awesome.
ripvanwormer 06-19-07, 12:22 PM	Ladinion was the name of a "deep sylvan land in prehistory," with "deep sylvan lands" defined as hidden, highly magical fey places separated from the mundane lands. It was here that the Titania and her sister dwelled. When the Black Diamond corrupted the land and turned it into a waste, both Titania and the Queen of Air and Darkness - and their respective followers - fled it, scattering to other planes of existence. The FRCS has mentioned that the Fey creator race was fragmented by a mysterious disease of possibly draconic or demonic origin. This could have been the Black Diamond. Compared to Eberron and Greyhawk, I believe they have recorded history going back hundreds of thousands of years. Oerth's timeline gets very vague past around 10,000 years ago (the time of the Crafters). There isn't any real evidence that Oerth is older than Toril. Conceivably, it could be much younger.
ripvanwormer 06-19-07, 12:41 PM	As I wondered above for Glyth, I wonder if the Great Mother and Gzemnid of H'Catha are the same as those of Faerūn. While I think they are, it is also possible that the Faerūnian and H'Cathan aspects of the gods have been separated long enough and far enough to conceivably become separate entities. This is a possibility I was going to mention earlier, but decided against it at the time. However, if the "branches" of Zakhara and Kara-Tur are distant enough from Faerun's "branch" that they don't even share, for example, a common Hell, Blood Rift, and Abyss, it seems likely that branches based on entirely different worlds would be even more distant (that might be a good project for this thread, incidently, exploring how Zakhara's single Lower Plane differs from the Faerunian lower planes - does Zakhara have an alternate turban-wearing Dispater, for example?). Unless the beholders of H'Catha and Toril are in more frequent communication than the humans of Faerun and Zakhara, I don't see how they could share a common set of planes.
MarkusTay63 06-19-07, 01:38 PM	In the RW, Devils are the creation of Judaeo-Christian Mythology, and therefore are primarily a European invention. Demons, on the other hand, were a creation of southern Asian culture, which as it spread its influence into the Indo-European belt spread 'Demons' to the near and Middle East. The native extra-planar creatures of Araby were the Dgen, but as the culture mixed with that of the East demons appear in Semite stories as well. The Oni of Far-Eastern culture are more neutral, because although usually evil when left to their own devices they do follow the will of the Celestial Emperor and often act as messengers or even 'punishers' for the gods. Since individual Oni can even behave 'good' at times, I would say that as a 'people' they are neutral, much likke humans, and can behave any way they like depending on the situation. So if I were to place them 'racially', they would probably be something in-between demons and devils, much like 'Loths. Their may even be some link to the Efreeti as well, because they are often depicted looking VERY similar. So that brings me to my comment on Rip's above thoughts. I don't really think that Zakhara would have its own "Hell', because lawful-evil creatures don't really fit with their culture. If anything, they would have connections to the Elemental planes that are missing in FR cosmology, like direct connections to the various Dgen Domains and perhaps the Elemental Lords. Maztica and Kara-Tur may have several new 'spirit planes', or perhaps a plane between Baator and the Abyss (that isn't seen on the Great Wheel) where the Oni dwell. The Abyss should be universal, and represented in all cosmologies, but the concept of 'Hell' really doesn't fit with most cultures. After all, they have seperate after-lives depending on which gods were worshipped. I prefer to link the 'devils' with some ancient falling out betwen the factions of Law. Weather that was the conflict between Jazirian and Ahriman, or the fall of Lucifer from Christian lore, either way I place the creation of the Hells much later then the Abyss, which should represent 'primordial' unrestrained Evil. For all we know, the Abyss could be the 'border area' for the Far Realm! Just some random thoughts, make of them what you will.
Gray Richardson 06-19-07, 08:08 PM	However, if the "branches" of Zakhara and Kara-Tur are distant enough from Faerun's "branch" that they don't even share, for example, a common Hell, Blood Rift, and Abyss, it seems likely that branches based on entirely different worlds would be even more distantI like to think that the cosmology of Realmspace and the Great Tree are one and the same. While, ostensibly, the Great Tree is only the cosmology of Faerūn and would appear to be separate from the cosmologies of Kara-Tur, Maztica, Zakhara, other continents and planets even, I like to think they are all connected in some fashion. Awhile back they discovered the largest living organism on earth in Oregon. It was a fungus called armillaria ostoyae, that appeared on the surface to be little patches of honey mushrooms, but beneath the forest soil were connected in a giant network of fungus covering an area the equivalent of 16,000 football fields in size. Each patch appeared to be separate, underneath it all just facets of the same big thing. Likewise I think all the astrals of Toril and Realmspace are connected, perhaps as layers of the same Astral (we haven't ever heard of astrals having layers before, but no reason they can't) or some other metaphor to tie them altogether in one big Tree. The Faerūnian cosmology being simply one big bough of the tree. Actually, the Tree metaphor is not always the most apt. The cosmos really looks like a koosh or a sputnick or an urchin, with each plane tied directly to a central hub (the Material Plane) and no others. Perhaps an airport metaphor works better, with Faerūn's astral being an airline "hub" meaning no flights go straight through without connecting to Faerūn. Zakhara could be another hub, Kara-Tur another, etc. But still there are connections between all of these hubs, aside from some links and portals, they all share the same Material Plane. that might be a good project for this thread, incidently, exploring how Zakhara's single Lower Plane differs from the Faerunian lower planes - does Zakhara have an alternate turban-wearing Dispater, for example?)Zakhara actually shares the same elemental planes with Faerūn, so that is another connection between the two. Zakhara has (at least) a single celestial plane, the Garden of Delight--or Jannat Al Na'im literally the "Gardens of Delight", one of the seven heavens of islamic faith. Most of the muslim heavens are called either "gardens of..." (Janaat) or " House/home of..." (Dar). It is interesting to ponder why Zakhara has only one heaven (and not the other six). Perhaps it could very well be a fragment broken off from Faerūn's Mount Celestia (now a part of the House of the Triad) although, more likely I would suspect a fragment split off from the Gates of the Moon, Realmspace's first celestial plane. As for Zakhara's lower plane, The Place of Fire, it could well be split off from Toril's original plane of evil, the Barrens of Doom & Despair, just as the Blood Rift split off from there in ages past. It is probably modeled on the Islamic Hell, called Jahannam--which is, interestingly, related to the name Gehenna meaning "the Valley of Hinnom's son" which was a valley or ravine outside of Jerusalem where they dumped trash and bodies of criminals and unwanted refuse. The area was often set ablaze with fire. Jahannam itself is described as a vault of fire, in the Quran it mentions that al-Balad 90:1-9 those who reject Our signs, they are the (unhappy) Companions of the Left Hand. On them will be fire vaulted over (all round). In as much as Zakhara's Place of Fire seems to be modeled on the Islamic Jahannam, then the name "Place of Fire" would seem an appropriate description. Unless the beholders of H'Catha and Toril are in more frequent communication than the humans of Faerun and Zakhara, I don't see how they could share a common set of planes.Well, I think that all of Toril's planets would have had, at least originally, a version of Chauntea's plane, the House of Nature. And maybe a version of the Gates of the Moon. Now, their versions of these planes might appear quite different and go by different names. They might even have different planar traits. Or perhaps they have been lost through disuse or death of pantheon, as planes in the Realms cosmology are wont to do. I am reminded of issue #5 of the comic Sandman, where the Sandman appears in dream to J'onn J'onnz (the Martian Manhunter) and is recognized by him as one of the Old Gods of Martian Myth. I imagine that the planes of Realmspace's planets look like alien versions of their Faerūnian counterparts.
MarkusTay63 06-20-07, 11:12 AM	Or, conversly (and using your Sandman analogy), their could just be a single plane that each culture sees differently. What ones sees of 'the devine' is what one expects to see. Four people from four differnt regions of Toril might all see the Astral plane completely different, even when traveling together (unless one of them convinces the others that they are in 'his' version, in which case their perceptions of the plane will take on the attributes given it by that 'leader' type). I agree that the 'Tree' metaphor doesn't work that well. It looks more like a flowchart to me... or the head of some huge beholder! Now that is a funny thought... the beholders version would look like a giant beholder, with a seperate eyestalk represting each plane in the cosmology. :D
Gray Richardson 06-21-07, 01:37 AM	Rip got me thinking about the disease that fragmented the sylvan creator race. The FRCS says this about the fey creator race on p. 261 "It is believed that their civilization fragmented after a great plague created by a draconic or demonic power." Rip suggested above that this plague might have been related to the Black Diamond mentioned in the origin myth of the Queen of Air & Darkness in Monster Mythology p.118. There it describes how dwarves discovered a black diamond while mining beneath a mountain. They brought it as a gift to Queen Titania of Ladinion."Titania was away, swimming the waters of the river Afon Bhlu which were fed by the lake [Cwm Glas]. Her sister took the gift instead. The great treasure began to corrupt the sister; the tale implies that the diamond is magical, but does not mention how it came to be fashioned. So, the corrupted goddess took the diamond away, together with the precious magical treasures of the Arcana, riding off in a great chariot billowing smoke and fire which appeared in the sky. The gem transformed her nature and soon after the mountain exploded, killing the dwarves and sending black poisonous clouds over Ladinion, creating a smoke sickness which decimated the faerie people."Lets assume that the smoke sickness above is the same plague mentioned in the FRCS. Lets further assume the sickness was draconic or demonic in origin, as the FRCS says. Now, take that in conjunction with the lore found on p.125 of Monster Mythology:"The Queen is truly only a husk of a being, utterly corrupted by the ten-faceted Black Diamond, an artifact of vast magical strength and ineffable evil." and a little further down: "Who or what created the Black Diamond is unknown, but some myths whisper that the Dark God of the Underdark created it, an that his return may be dependent on the Queen's despoilings."Now, does this sound familiar to anyone? Does Faerūnian myth have any other examples of a goddess corrupted and turned into a husk by a dark god? This story has strong echoes with the myth of Tyche and how she was corrupted by a seemingly innocuous flower she plucked and placed in her hair. The flower was Moander in disguise, and he rotted Tyche into a husk as well. Moander is thought to be an ascended demon lord, perhaps an obyrith, the former prince of the 223rd layer of the Abyss, aka Rarandreth or Offalmound. As a god, his portfolio included rot, rotting death, decay, and corruption. I don't know if he was a god at the time, but consider this scenario: Say Moander was still an obyrith during the height of the sylvan's sovreignty. He was vying to ascend to divine status. He conceives of a ploy to ascend to divinity by corrupting a god--in this case Titania. He creates the Black Diamond, or perhaps disguised himself AS the Black Diamond, or otherwise invested part of himself within it. Then he arranges for some dwarves to find it and bring it to Titania as a gift. He misses his target, but corrupts her sister instead, which works almost as good. With the corruption of the QOA&D, Moander's ascension ritual was complete and Moander is raised to dark godhood. Perhaps the mountain blowing up (or volcano erupting) was the capstone of the ceremony. Moander then engineers the smoke sickness that infects and fragments the fey creator race. Some divine ascensions require a divine sponsor. I am not saying Moander's did, but if it did, he could have been sponsored by Talona, goddess of disease, who may have been bitter about the fey failing to properly venerate her. Talona is one of the oldest goddesses in Realms mythology, thought to have been spawned in the War of Light & Darkness between Selūne and Shar. So whether Talona was part of the fey pantheon or not, she would have been around back then. I suppose Ghaunadaur might have also made a good divine sponsor for Mo. I find myself more and more open to the idea that Ladinion could have been located in the Realms. At first I thought "no way", but now the idea is growing on me. I don't know if Ladinion was a fey kingdom within the Realms or if Ladinion was a kingdom in the Plane of Faerie, coterminous with the Realms. Or perhaps what happened in the Realms was just a mythic echo of what happened on the fey pantheon's (hypothetical) original homeworld called Ladinion--the events of the myth may replay themselves time and again on countless worlds. But I do find myself intrigued with how well the lore meshes together and how it could explain the rise of Moander, the concomitant fall of the QOA&D, and the subsequent "demonic" plague which fragmented the sylvan creator race.
Gray Richardson 06-21-07, 01:51 AM	You know, if Ladinion was in the Realms, it might have been located north of the Yehimals, from where the dwarves are said to have sprung. Are there any volcanoes in the Yehimals? Perhaps such a volcanic euption destroyed the first colony of dwarves in the Realms. Maybe it was survivors of that colony who awoke from a protective sleep in a cavern deep within the Underdark, to emerge circa -16,000 DR, reestablishing dwarven civilization in the Yehimals. If you did place Ladinion in Faerūn, north of the Yehimals, there are some nice locations that would work. In my atlas I see several nice lakes in the Katakoro Plateau region. Any of these lakes, such as Nor Tso, Nor Yudol, or Nor Takt might make good candidates for the lake Cwm Glas, on the shores of which sat Titania's faerie court. And the Upper Hungtse river or the Muren Tso river might be the modern name for river Afon Bhlu.
MarkusTay63 06-25-07, 01:56 AM	That region was inhabited by the Spirit Folk; it says so on pg. 55 of The Horde, Hollow Crown Mountains entry. The description goes on to say that they were "cruel and ruthless oppressors of other races", so they don't sound much like Fey. A better bet, and close to the region you've picked out, would be the Maviddi, who built the Tsaparang Fortress in ages past. However, they are described as "Half-Elves", so they aren't quite right either. The Maraloi, living further north in the Ama Basin would be a closer bet, and some of their ruins indicate that they did occassionally build underground (much like the Fey with their Hill Palaces). Also, located directly below this region in the Kun-Yen Shan range is a secret valley of the Shan Sao, who are a likely candidate for a Fey-decendent. They are only 1' tall and have cat eyes. All of that may lead one to a 'relationship' with the ancient Fey, but I still believe that the Hanya Maut Wasteland is the best bet - it even has the big volcanoe in the middle. The official map containing it was in Ronin Challenge (downloadable here (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads)), but you can see a piece of it on my Utter East Map. (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/57670523/) The nearby Larang Valleys were described as an idyllic place, blessed by the gods in ages past, and sound like a region the Fey could hail from. We have to also remember that the Yehimals may have been MUCH smaller pre-Sundering, or perhaps did not exist at all. I like the line of thought about the Black Diamond being the disease - it works VERY well. If it was Moander, however, I don't really see 'him' as the brains behind something like that. I like to think the Dark God is the REAL power behind much of the evil in the multiverse, and perhaps Moander was just doing his bidding in order to get his sponsorship into godhood? I see the Fey as the antithesis of everything the Dark God stands for - light, beauty, life, nature, etc... so it would make sense that he would want to stamp them out... everywhere. :88E:
Gray Richardson 06-25-07, 04:34 AM	That region was inhabited by the Spirit Folk; it says so on pg. 55 of The Horde, Hollow Crown Mountains entry.Ah, but when did they inhabit it? The Fey creator race first rose to prominence circa -34,000 DR. Assuming for the moment there was once a fey nation in the Katakoro Plateau region, there has been time enough for many successive cultures to rise and fall over the course of 35,000 years. Sure, the spirit folk of Guge were once the haughty rulers of the entire Katakoro Plateau, but if that were 1,000 years ago, or 2,000, or even 10,000 years ago, it is still relatively recent, given the time scale we are discussing.The description goes on to say that they were "cruel and ruthless oppressors of other races", so they don't sound much like Fey.The spirit folk according to the Kara-Tur Monstrous Compendium were descendents of humans and various spirits of nature. Sounds like half-fey or fey-touched to me. 3e Oriental Adventures lists them as humanoid with the spirit subtype. It also says they have very strong ties to the natural world. The spirit subtype says it includes fey and elementals (nature spirits). The language in that book draws from and tracks closely the description in the Kara-Tur monstrous compendium. Now these Spirit Folk could be completely unrelated to the fey creator race, and could have settled the plateau long after the folk of Ladinion had abandoned the region. But if they are half-fey or fey-touched descendants of the fey creator race, that could also account for things. Note that spirit folk in both the KTMC and in Oriental Adventures are statted as usually good. So the fact that these particular spirit folk of the Katakoro Plateau tended toward evil might be an indicator that they descended from either those fey that were tainted by the Black Diamond, or perhaps it is merely an indicator that their human ancestry was more on the evil side. Alternatively, it may be that they were not so nasty after all, but that the old kingdom of Guge was merely labeled cruel and ruthless oppressors of other races by the historians of the Kao Dynasty in order to justify their destruction at the hands of the Shou Lung military on behalf of an expansionist and none-too-scrupulous regime. History is told by the winners, after all, and so I'm not so sure that we can trust their version of events. ;) You mention several very good alternative candidates for possible locations of Ladinion, and I think we must consider them all in trying to place this ancient seat of fey culture. That is, assuming Ladinion even existed in Faerūn, which I don't think we can know for sure. However, I would not rule out the Katakoro Plateau as a possibility, given that it fits several of the criteria. These criteria include that it has to be to the north of a dwarven kingdom, and must have a lake and a river. Given that the only dwarves we know of that might have been around back then were located in the Yehimals, the Katakoro Plateau seems like a good match. And the lore you mention in the Horde accessory sounds like it might actually fit quite nicely with that hypothesis. I agree though, that a pre-sundering Faerūn might have looked radically different. So really, there are a wide range of possible locations. I think we might also consider the Lake of Mists area, and the Brightstar Lake region. My only objection to the Hanya Maut wasteland area is that it is south of the Yehimal range. The lore in Monster Mythology p.118 says that the dwarves discovered the Black Diamond under a mountain south of Ladinion. So I presume Ladinion would have to be north of where the dwarves lived, which might rule out Hanya Maut.
MarkusTay63 06-25-07, 01:36 PM	My only objection to the Hanya Maut wasteland area is that it is south of the Yehimal range. The lore in Monster Mythology p.118 says that the dwarves discovered the Black Diamond under a mountain south of Ladinion. So I presume Ladinion would have to be north of where the dwarves lived, which might rule out Hanya Maut.But there is an arm of the Yehimal - the southern Wu Pi Te Shao - that extends BELOW the Hanya Maut Wasteland. The fact that there is a lonely volcanoe sitting in the middle of the wasteland is just to good to pass up, and who's to say that the lake and river you describe didn't dry-up AFTER the Black Diamond/Titania's sister destroyed the region; a LOT of time has passed. Saying the Fey were the original 'Spirits' is a good call, since today's 'Spirit-Folk' are basically half-Fey. All of the peoples I described above could be decendents of the originals, who were tainted by the disease and hence caused the 'fracture' of the Fey race. In fact, the very myth of the War of Light and Darkness may very well be a half-forgotten racial memory of the struggle between Titania and her sister, the Queen of Air and Darkness. In that scenario, Selūne is an aspect of Titania, and Shar is an aspect of the QoAaD. A bit of a stretch, but after 30,000 years the facts are likely to be VERY garbled. The fact that the 'mystical kingdom' of Langdarma is nearby also lends some credence to this being the general vicinity of Ladinion. There are several other mystical-type valleys in the area, so I would say that the entire region, from the Katakoro Plateau right on down to the larang Valleys may have been Fey stomping grounds some 30,000 years ago. *As an aside, I always had a bit of trouble swallowing that the Centaurs are Fey, and feel that they may have been created by them as shock-troops or some such, but they are not themselves Fey. They could have been developed as such to counter the Wemics, or even early incursions of Horse barabarians (Nar, Gur, or Kalmyk - not Tuigan at that time). The fact that their are different Centaurs for the Wastes and Zakhara, as well as evidence of ancient Centaurs on the nearby Thayan Plateau, would suggest some type of Centaurian culture dominating the wastes in the distant paste.
Soltares 06-25-07, 02:17 PM	In fact, the very myth of the War of Light and Darkness may very well be a half-forgotten racial memory of the struggle between Titania and her sister, the Queen of Air and Darkness. In that scenario, Selūne is an aspect of Titania, and Shar is an aspect of the QoAaD. A bit of a stretch, but after 30,000 years the facts are likely to be VERY garbled. That is an insanely cool concept, plus creates all sorts of potential for both goddesses. I wonder how the Shadar-kai would meld into this sort of variation. Fey servants of Shar / the Dark Queen? Outcasts from the realm of Shadow? Neat.
Gray Richardson 06-25-07, 08:39 PM	In that scenario, Selūne is an aspect of Titania, and Shar is an aspect of the QoAaD.I think that could be a strong possibility. Titania and the Queen definitely have the feel of being cognate deities with Selūne and Shar. If the fey creator race venerated essentially the same divinity as the native humans, but from a uniquely fey perspective, then Titania and the Queen could easily be fragments/aspects/aliases for Selūne and Shar. In fact, I have long advocated that I believe Lurue to be a fragment of Mystryl (or vice versa). I believe also that the dragon god of magic, Kereska, was likely an aspect of Mystryl (and/or the first Mystra). Likely some of the original Faerūnian gods had cognates in the Great School pantheon of the aquatic creator race (before they adopted monotheism, converted to Ramenos and became the amphibious Batrachi.) It is possible also that Syranita of the aarakocra pantheon is a fragment of Selūne or Chauntea. Not sure if she is, but it is something to consider. And, of course, I find myself haunted by the idea that the World Serpent may have been the Sarrukh's conception of Chauntea.The fact that the 'mystical kingdom' of Langdarma is nearby also lends some credence to this being the general vicinity of Ladinion.Interesting, that merits some thought. Linguistically, the names "Langdarma" and "Ladinion" seem very similar.I always had a bit of trouble swallowing that the Centaurs are Fey, and feel that they may have been created by them as shock-troops or some such, but they are not themselves Fey.Though they have long been associated with the fey, centaurs are actually monstrous humanoids, so not officially fey. They could indeed have been created by the fey for some purpose. All the creator races seem to have had an obsession with, or at least dabbled in the game of cross breeding humans with other species. The Sarrukh have their yuan-ti, nagas, lizardmen, etc. The Batrachi would seem to have transformed not only themselves into humanoids but bred lots of fish-man species and other strange combinations. The Aearee could well be responsible for harpies, and other avian species like the perytons. Maybe they even bred elves to grow wings and become the Avariel. I wonder if the Aearee are responsible for swanmays too. I have long suspected some link between the swanmays and the Aearee, although swanmays are more strongly linked to fey. Swanmays may have been a crossbreeding experiment in the same vein as the one that created centaurs. Satyrs too maybe. Although satyrs, unlike centaurs, actually have the fey type. So maybe Satyrs are some kind of true-breeding half-fey with human blood and maybe goat spirit ancestry. Heck, maybe satyrs are some kind of half-cervidal.
Gray Richardson 06-26-07, 08:52 PM	You know, I was thinking, the tendency is to treat all the fantasy races as monolithic, all sharing the same basic culture and mythology. But Titania and the Queen of Air and Darkness might just be the pantheon of the Western Fey of Faerūn. The Seelie and Unseelie (based on Celtic faerie lore) might only be one such fey culture or nation. There might be many other fey paradigms and mythologies to be found in the Realms. For instance, the Greeks, with all their many nymphs, had a rich mythology surrounding fey. Germanic mythology is also rich in fey. There are also fey in the myths of Arabia, Persia, Africa and many non-western cultures. And we know there are many strange fey in Kara-Tur who might draw from asian culture and mythology. I just found that Unapproachable East has a 3.5 conversion of Spirit Folk for Faerūn, which has monster stats and also info about using them as a playable race. It lists 2 types of Spirit Folk that are common in the Unapproachable East: Mountain and River Spirit Folk. The Mountain Spirit Folk appear to be new. River Spirit Folk are also found in the Kara-Tur monstrous compendium, and also the 3e Oriental Adventures book, along with Bamboo Spirit Folk and Sea Spirit Folk. I imagine that Spirit Folk are descendants of humans who bred with various nymphs (or their Faerūnian fey equivalents) such as naiads, oreads, nereids, oceanids, and some sort of dryad variant whose niche is bamboo. You know if WotC were going to do a Sylvan Kingdoms book about fey in Faerūn, I notice there are lots of fey creatures they could put in the book that have not been adapted to 3.5e yet. In addition to such greek nymphs as naiads, hamadryads, oceanids, pegaeae, napaeae, crinaeae, meliae, auloniads, alseids, limnades, and teutonic nymphs such as ondines (or undines), and lorelei, there are also many staples of 1e and 2e fey that have yet to be converted such as atomies, leprechauns, korreds, and killmoulis. Just a quick perusal through an old monster list yields several other names of as yet unconverted fey (at least I don't think they have appeared yet in a 3e source): Asrai, Booka, Brownie, Buckawn, Feystag, Firestar, Forlarren, Gremlin, Harrla, Kaluk, Khollathra, Quickling, Zin. Tom Costa did the Seelie and Unseelie Sprites for the Realms Bestiary II, so he might be an excellent designer to have work on any such book. There is a ton of material they could adapt and work from. I didn't even mention all the fey in the Kara-Tur Monstrous compendium, but there are a lot in there too. Fey and the Sylvan Creator Race have been long neglected in 3e, but surely there is a wealth of material to explore, and enough interest I would wager to make such a book very marketable. I know I would buy it! :elf:
MarkusTay63 06-27-07, 03:23 PM	Gray, I just found the 'Fäerie' thread over at CK, where there is some very good input by others and some truly excellent ideas bouncing around. I didn't mean to 'railroad' your thread, and must apologize. Even though the creation of Fäerie and the various demi/transitive planes it is related to could be folded into the topic, I feel it deviates too much from your original intent. I'll continue this at CK. (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8069&whichpage=1) ;)
Gray Richardson 06-27-07, 07:59 PM	In as much as the creator races are the source of many mythologies that have shaped the planes, and have spawned many races in turn that have further influenced the planes. And in that they created many portals and links between the planes, I think the creator races are an interesting and very appropriate topic to discuss in a thread on the history of the cosmology. :) So no apology necessary, as we have hit on quite a few interesting points that tie into the thread topic. :g:
MarkusTay63 06-28-07, 07:42 PM	Cool :cool: More food for thought - I was just doing some stuff for the Maztica thread, connecting the Draconic pantheon to the Maztican (there are some superficial similarities), and I noticed something. I have always associated the Maztican (Central American) pantheon with the draconic because of the reptillian forms many of them take. So Kukul, the great father of the gods, becomes Io in my version. I believe that Kukul and Maztica represent the devine masculine and the devine feminine we see so often in primitive culture's religions. So when Maztica is slain (which we have both agreed could very well be a fragment of Chauntea), the text says this about Kukul - "His undying despair shattered the Elder God, and left the children of Kukul and Maztica to battle amongst themselves" So basically we have a reason why the world serpent (Io) fragmented in the first place! I have always likened Io as Chauntee's opposite, with him representing the more destructive form nature can take (and renewel as well). each is neccessary for the balance, so they are not enemies, but rather work together to keep everything in harmony. This all fits together into a proto-pantheon, from when Toril was still young and its planes/godly domains were first forming. It also reconciles the two versions of the creation Myth somewhat, and they are just two different ways of looking at similar events. I just love the reference to the Maztican creator god 'fragmenting'. The big problem with all this, though, is that the dragons were supposedly interlopers, so all of this would have had to occur in a different sphere (the draconic homeworld?).
Iakhovas 06-28-07, 08:28 PM	Keep in mind, however, that in the Realms Io is known as Asgorath and she is female. The World Serpent (Ouroboros) and Asgorath are not the same being.
MarkusTay63 06-28-07, 08:38 PM	KK, will have to fix that, thanx for watchin' my back. ;)
Gray Richardson 06-28-07, 09:24 PM	Keep in mind, however, that in the Realms Io is known as Asgorath and she is female. The World Serpent (Ouroboros) and Asgorath are not the same being.Asgorath would seem to be an egg-layer as he/she/it caused eggs to fall from the sky during the Tearfall that spawned the dragons (Though some may take the view that the Tearfall event merely transformed existing eggs of proto-dragons). However, I tend to think Asgorath is sexless, or rather encompasses both sexes. He is both All-Father and All-Mother to the draconic races. Note that the book Cult of the Dragon p.120 presents Asgorath as male, and definitely equates him with Io. The myth of Asgorath presented in the (1e) Draconomicon definitely presents her as feminine. But I am inclined to think the text quoted by Dunkelzahn of Candlekeep excerpted from the "Book of the World" is actually a holy scripture from a human cult of Tiamat from around 500 to a thousand or so years ago in the Asram area. As such, it seems to confound the personages of Tiamat and Asgorath, presenting the myth in a manner which implies that a heroic Tiamat, or an incarnation of her under the name of Asgorath, spawned the dragon races. That it is written in an ancient form of Thorass indicates it was a human cult (humans used Thorass, the ancestor language of the common tongue). The text says that red dragons were spawned first and that the metallic dragons were spawned by the traitor, "bahmat" [sic] in a hubristic mockery of Asgorath's creation, a corruption of Asgorath's pure red race. There is some indication that the Asgorath of the myth had multiple heads. Because the myth comes from a biased source (definitely written from an evil perspective) and not even a draconic source but rather a human cult, I don't think we can hold up the work as the ultimate authority on Asgorath as the dragons of old knew him/her. But since it is the oldest source we know of (so far), it is all we have to go on for now.
MarkusTay63 06-29-07, 03:17 AM	I just liked the idea of connecting Kukul to the World Serpent, since both were fragmented near 'the beginning' of things, and therefore do not recieve worship anymore. I also like playing off Chauntea/Earthmother and the world serpent as two sides of the same 'creation coin'. One is about growth through life, the other about growth through entropy (destuction). Heaven and Earth, Yin and Yang, etc.. the devine duality is esential in most early mythos, so I'm just trying to apply it to the realms in some fashion. And besides, its silly to even think of gods as male or female, because they could be whatever they want. In the Hordelands, Grumbar is female and Akadi is male. Personally, I think the Book of the World was a Netherese copy of an earlier work, from a time when dragons ruled the world. Primitive humans would have worshipped these creatures as gods, and I'm sure the dragons would have went along with it. Also, I feel the word 'Dragon', as applied in religion, means an 'incredibly powerful elemental force'. Many of the eastern dragons are presented this way, as are Meso-American (Maztican), Vedic, etc... it was only after the Europeans applied the term to their more terrestrial version that we started thinking of them in terms of 'big lizard'. So the race of dragons we know really has very little to do with devine dragons - after all, gods can take on any form they want. The earliest beings in the Universe - Io, the Night Serpent, Ahriman, Jazirian - are really nothing more then man's imaginings of what these primal beings were like. The same applies to giants, BTW - we have the kind from mythology, and the mortal kind. They may or may not be their creations, but they are not related to them in any physical sense. So basically, all of the Elder Gods may have a serpentine aspect about them, because they represent these primal forces unleashed at the beginning of the universe.
Soltares 06-29-07, 10:35 AM	I wonder if Io/Asgaroth/the World Serpent could be connected to Shekinister (from the Monster Mythology book back in 2e). Then again, I wonder if Shekenister, a tripartate god(dess) could be connected to Angharradh, a more Realms-specific tripartate goddess who loosely goes for the whole Maiden/Weaver/Crone aspect...
MarkusTay63 06-29-07, 01:12 PM	LOL She grew two more aspects in SK, because two more Naga races were added since MM. She is now a Quinpartate goddess. It is eluded to that she is an aspect of the World Serpent herself, although its never clearly stated. She herself fragmented after she swallowed Ssharstrune, because of his destructive aspect. She was impregnated by Jazirian (now dead) and gave birth to Parrafaire. The relationships between the various scaled gods is quite confusing, and they seem to be able to absorb and seperate from each other fairly easily. This is just one more indication that these are really 'primal forces' at work, and not a physical being in the standard sense we tend to think of them as.
Valgard 06-29-07, 01:23 PM	I wonder if Io/Asgaroth/the World Serpent could be connected to Shekinister (from the Monster Mythology book back in 2e). Then again, I wonder if Shekenister, a tripartate god(dess) could be connected to Angharradh, a more Realms-specific tripartate goddess who loosely goes for the whole Maiden/Weaver/Crone aspect...Serpent Kingdoms tell us the story of the myth of Shekinester, and as it is possible to link directly that myth with the fragmentation of the World Serpent (althought I think it is quite not probable, that happened after the fall of the Sarrukh empires) there's absolutely no possible connection between Shekinester and Angharradh for many reasons. First of all, the elves are an interloper race that brought their pantheon with them, and Angharradh was with them, not like Shekinester, she's a goddess resulted from the fragmentation of the World Serpent (at least). Second, the different aspects of Shekinester do not resemble at any level with those of Angharradh. The Elven goddesses that make Angharradh are Aerdrie Faenya (goddess of the avariel, birds, skies, and freedom), Hanali Celanil (goddess of love and romance), and Sehanine Moonbow (goddess of mysticism, dreams and moon magic). Shekinester's aspects reflect the opposition of alignments: the Acquirer (LE), the Empowerer (LG), the Seeker (CG), the Weaver (CE), and the Preserver (N). And even Ssharstrune, the goddess swallowed by Shekinester that provoked her fragmentation, is considered another aspect of her.
Yanagita Kunio 06-29-07, 03:46 PM	Any details about the origins of Moander in canon, aside from the Faiths & Avatars entry? Working strictly with ideas from Monster Mythology and Faiths & Avatars (it's what I own), I could see Moander and the Queen of Air & Darkness sharing an origin in the Black Diamond--rather than the Black Diamond being an agent of the former affecting the latter, the two beings both trace their origin to the events surrounding that myth. Bear with me. Fey are loosely understandable as beings that resonate/reflect tropes of "life/liveliness" as both an aspect of nature and a set of sapient concepts--hence their conceptual-mystical liasons with both the physical entities/objects of a living ecosystem and the fundamental passions. Moander is the underlying urge to consume reduced to it's most naked, visceral degree--absent the sublimation of "consumption via conceptual means," like control, ownership, and domination. In a Gnostic sense, it is the very embodiment of sarx, and the unpleasant reality that life is sustained by consumption (mostly of other life). Ugliness aside, (to me) the drive/"feel" of what it embodies are a sort of reversal of what fey embody. Moander renders basic and corporeal the drives that the fey sublimate and make nuanced. I can sort of see it as a "dark god" of a fey pantheon, or just having an origin amongst the fey. If one accepts the starting premise of a relatively enclosed cosmology, such that the native fey of Faerun would view the Ladinion myth as their own (and not interloping from elsewhere), Moander is something born/germinated in the aftermath of the "smoking sickness" that decimates the fey of Ladinion, perhaps literally made in the physical remains of pandemic victims. It is the consuming sickness that affected Ladinion, but in a more subtle fashion Moander is also the condensation of the primal urge to survive experienced by the fleeing survivors. Alternately, to get into dualities--Moander is a very interesting contrast to the Queen of Air & Darkness. The drive and dogma of the former hinges on continuing survival, unadulterated Freudian libido: the latter is almost the personification of the death urge as an intellectual process...formless, passionless--converting fey to "evil" seems to be a means to an end, with is wreaking death and ruin on all fey. I could see Moander as the "shadow" of the Queen--the dross that got left behind in the course of whatever transformation occurred with the Black Diamond. Alternately, if you favor the War of Light and Darkness myth, then Moander is essentially the deep-buried reaction of Chauntea to the threat of eternal darkness--the selfish, primal urges of I want to live, I want warmth, I want to thrive that Toril's manifestation generally sublimates into maternal and productive impulses. Perhaps, in a sense, this is what the "Black Diamond" was--a suppressed instinct, a repressed bundle of emotions compacted into solidity and hidden away.
Razz 06-29-07, 05:41 PM	Brownie WotC did do a very thorough conversion of the Brownie (along with the Boggart) to 3.5E in a very obscure source on their website located: Brownie and Boggart (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/al/20041006a) Tom Costa did the Seelie and Unseelie Sprites for the Realms Bestiary II, so he might be an excellent designer to have work on any such book. There is a ton of material they could adapt and work from. I didn't even mention all the fey in the Kara-Tur Monstrous compendium, but there are a lot in there too. Dragon Magazine did publish Seelie and Unseelie Fey templates and then again in Dragon Compendium Volume One. [QUOTE=Gray Richardson;12870014]Fey and the Sylvan Creator Race have been long neglected in 3e, but surely there is a wealth of material to explore, and enough interest I would wager to make such a book very marketable. I know I would buy it! :elf: Hopefully it comes out next year! :D
MarkusTay63 06-29-07, 06:15 PM	I would love to see a Fey sourcebook; but then again, I would also love to be at the very least an advisor on the project, if not a contributer. :cloud9: (I WAS designing the Fäerie sourcebook for Chivalry & Sorcery back in '81). There is just so much there, so many things to explore. Ancient fairy Folklore is as deep and diversified as the Realms themselves, so it most definately belongs there. :D As a side note, I love the idea of tying Moander to it all. Perhaps The Dark God, hating all life and happiness, turned his attention to the Fey, who represented his antithesis. Taking a piece of himself (an Avatar?), he crafted the Black Diamond from it and hid it for the Dwarves to find. Then it corrupted Titania's sister, but it did not stop there. It's evil spread like a thing alive... and it was! So both Moander and the Queen of Air and Darkness were both born from the vile machinations of the Dark God, corrupter of worlds.
Razz 06-29-07, 06:58 PM	She was impregnated by Jazirian (now dead) This has me so confused. If you're a deity that has "died" in the Realms it doesn't necessarily mean you're floating away as a lifeless husk in the Astral Plane. You could have worshippers in other worlds, but you're just "dead" to Realmspace, forbidden from entering Realmspace as a deity by the decree of Ao until you gather a formidable array of worshippers again in Toril. This explains why Jazirian's realm in Mount Celestia (Planes of Law boxed set from the Planescape setting) is still functioning vividly and there's no sign of Jazirian anywhere near death (heck, Jazirian is even said to be one of the serpents of Law in the creation of the D&D multiverse, with Asmodeus as the other serpent). However, Jazirian is very much alive and well in Toril. He just doesn't go by Jazirian anymore, he is now Qotal of the Maztica Pantheon. So Jazirian is very much alive, he's just no longer a Faerunian deity. Of course, I think that should change soon considering couatls (his most common worshipers) live in the Chult Peninsula and Maztican natives are living in Faerun and vice-versa. So Jazirian is alive and well...however, his Faerunian followers have all died out. Actually, it's stated that he went into exile and left for Maztica, taking along his servants (the couatls) with him. He became known as Qotal to the natives in Maztica. He must've established himself as a human deity there once humans began flourishing in Maztica.
Yanagita Kunio 06-29-07, 07:39 PM	Jazirian is so obviously avoiding deific child support payments.
MarkusTay63 06-29-07, 11:10 PM	Jazirian was killed by Merrshaulk WAY back in time, SK, pg.55-56 The Cuotal are actually Sarrukh that were transformed, and after their patron Jazirian died, they fled to Maztica where they were embraced by Qotal, and they excepted him as 'Jazirian reborn'. So Qotal isn't Jazirian, but he has taken up Jazirian's portfolio and answers his worshippers prayers. He is still alive on the Great Wheel, however, but his aspect is not allowed back into Faerūn now that he was killed. Like I said earlier, scaley gods are VERY confusing.
Razz 06-30-07, 10:05 AM	Jazirian was killed by Merrshaulk WAY back in time, SK, pg.55-56 The Cuotal are actually Sarrukh that were transformed, and after their patron Jazirian died, they fled to Maztica where they were embraced by Qotal, and they excepted him as 'Jazirian reborn'. So Qotal isn't Jazirian, but he has taken up Jazirian's portfolio and answers his worshippers prayers. He is still alive on the Great Wheel, however, but his aspect is not allowed back into Faerūn now that he was killed. Like I said earlier, scaley gods are VERY confusing. So that's what happened. Strange, cause I thought I read in SK that Jazirian fled towards Maztica where he became Qotal. I'll have to re-read those sections and see what I've misread. EDIT: Ok, I re-read it. I did misread it the first time. It's been awhile since I've read through SK.
Gray Richardson 07-01-07, 02:59 PM	So I was doing some reading about Proto-Indo-European, the reconstructed, hypothetical mothertongue from which most European and Indo-Iranian languages descended. And I noticed that one of the roots of this language, "ster-", meaning barren or infertile, from which we get the word "sterile", and has some sort of cognate in most languages. This got me to thinking about the Barrens of Doom and Despair, how it is strongly linked to Talona, and its role as the original plane of evil in the cosmos of the Great Tree. Just to recap, the cosmos started with just a single outer plane, the Gates of the Moon, the original "heaven" of the Realms, home to Selūne, linked to the Material Plane by an Astral Plane. It is possible that, in the beginning, Selūne and Shar shared the Gates of the Moon. Though Shar resides in Shadow now, I don't know if Shar always had her realm in Shadow. She could have started out in the Gates of the Moon with Selūne. They could have even created the plane together. After all, the moon has its light side and its dark side. It may be that Shar did not take up residence in Shadow until later, when Selūne and Chauntea conspired against her to create a sun. Then Chauntea was born. Chauntea currently resides in the plane of the House of Nature. However, I do not know if she always did. I do not know if she created the House of Nature right off the bat, it is possible that the House of Nature was an artifact of a later age. My current thinking is that Chauntea dwelled in the Astral Plane. Perhaps she initially dwelled in the Gates of the Moon with her mother(s), and then at some point moved out on her own. My theory is that, initially, Chauntea claimed the Astral Plane as her realm, and as a result of this, the entire Astral Plane of Realmspace became a metaphysical reflection of the natural world of Toril and the other planets of Realmspace. Chauntea's Astral looked very much like the Spirit World of Kara-Tur and the Wood Beyond the Worlds that Ed Greenwood mentioned he used as the transitive plane for his original home-Realms campaign. Under this theory, there was just the one Astral to begin with, they were all as yet unfragmented, and there was orignally no House of Nature, or perhaps, more accurately, the House of Nature and the Astral were one and the same. Then comes the War of Light and Darkness. Selūne and Chauntea conspire to create a sun, Shar slinks off to Shadow, where she recruits fiends from another universe to help her make war on Selūne and Chauntea. The FRCS tell us that from this conflict were spawned: War, Disease, Murder, Death and other fell forces. Destruction should probably also be included as one of those fell forces, as we are informed in various sources that some aspect of Talos (or Kozah) goes all the way back to this time as well. Of these, they pretty much all got their own planes after the War was concluded. War got Warrior's Rest. Death got the Fugue Plane. Destruction got Fury's Heart, and the Barrens of Doom and Despair. One open question is whether these planes were created by these gods for themselves, or whether the planes fragmented by themselves from the unified Astral Plane along the contours of their realms, or whether these planes were forged for them by Selūne and/or Chauntea (or as an alternative Ao) as some sort of punishment or segregation. Which brings me to the Barrens of Doom and Despair. Did Talona create it for herself? Or was it created as a holding place to contain her? And I think I am leaning toward the latter.
Gray Richardson 07-01-07, 03:12 PM	Talona is the god of disease and pestilence (and by extension venom and poisons because insects use venom, but this is secondary to her main portfolio). We tend to think of disease and pestilence in the negative, as afflictions, but what are they really? Disease and pestilence are actually a surfeit, an abundance of life. It is life unrestricted and out of control. Cancer are living cells that reproduce too quickly and without restraint. Disease is caused by the uncontrolled reproduction of microorganisms (bacteria, viruses and parasites). Pestilence is a plague spread by an infestation of insects or vermin (Latin pestis). Talona is often viewed in the negative as a detriment to life, but perhaps a better way to understand her is to think of her is as life unrestrained, unchecked, out-of-bounds. She represents life redirected at itself, at-odds with itself. I imagine she was one of Shar's more effective generals. She did not lead forces, she did something much more subtle. She was an agent-provactaeur. She fomented rebellion, she incited life to riot, to break the rules of nature. She bent Chauntea's creatures to her will. She combatted life with life. And this probably terrified Chauntea to the core of her being. After the War, I surmise that the Barrens of Doom and Despair was crafted as a holding space for Talona. It was "barren", in the sense of infertile, devoid of life, with the intent of checking Talona and giving her no raw materials to work with. I do not think Talona created this plane for herself, because if she had, it would be a lush place teeming with life, and would likely be a positive-dominant plane. Talona's own realm is like this, but the plane at large is the exact opposite, designed, I believe, to ring her in, limiting her capacity to spread. The Barrens of Doom and Despair is thus the equivalent of Tartarus for the Great Tree, a holding pen for an unwanted god (or gods), in the same way the Greek gods cast the Titans down into Tartarus. Note that petitioners to this plane turn into larvae, basically a big worm with a humanoid face. I think it likely that this form was set as the default for the plane by Talona herself as a manifestation of her dominion over insects and vermin. It seems somehow appropriate that humanoid souls should resemble worms, at least to start, when they arrive in this plane. There are other nether planes in the Great Tree cosmos, but they (mostly) seem to be interloper planes, or split off from other planes. For instance it is thought that the Blood Rift was originally part of the Barrens but was split off to form its own plane after the yugoloths took it over. The Nine Hells and the Abyss would appear to be interloper planes, brought over by Shar when she imported fiendish mercenaries from outside the cosmos to wage her War of Light and Darkness on her sister. The Demonweb Pits was in turn split off from the Abyss. Hammergrim, Nishrek and Clangor would appear also to be interloper planes, brought by the dwarves, orcs and goblins when these races first settled on Toril. The Fated Depths, Deep Caverns, and Fury's Heart seem to follow a different metaphor, but that is a topic for another post.
MarkusTay63 07-01-07, 03:31 PM	Like that, especially the part about the BoDaD being Talona's prison. I don't think any god would consciously create a nasty place for themselves, even an evil one. I know some RW evil people, and they all want to live in the Hamptons. ;) A couple of things - I think the origianl plane would have been called "The Gates of the Night", because that would encompass both the Moon and Darkness. Later Selūne would have renamed it. Also, I think a Greater god 'generates' a domain around themselves automatically, so Chauntee would not have had to consciously create the House of Nature. That still works with your theories, because if she was in the Astral then parts of it would have become her domain just because of her presence. Godly domains most likely start out (IMO) as something akin to a palace, or some similar dwelling place, reflecting that gods outlook. As their worship grows, so does their domain, both because of the power they are receiving, and because they need the room for petitioners. Chauntee, being a universal 'Earthmother' figure, had her power grow exponentially, and soon converted all of the Astral to reflect he personality. Personally though, I prefer to think of the Ethereal as the 'proto-matter' that all other planes are born from, not the Astral. Any being with considerable power can shape a domain out of it and create a new demi-plane (Fäerie, Ravenloft, godly domains, pocket dimensions, etc). I like to think of Godly domains like the evil domains in Ravenloft. They are actually generated by the being at its center. In fact, the domain itself could be the 'primal aspect' of the deity, which sends out the Avatars. All gods generate this 'field effect' to some degree, but intermediate gods and lesser gods would have to co-operate in order to establish a permanent domain (hence, why many live together). Even a demigod generates this 'domain field', but it only extends about 10-20'. Fiendish Lords probably have one that extends about 5' (one space in D&D terms), where the ground steams and the air becomes acrid. Picture in better movies and in novels - when an evil god enters a room, it becomes darker, and often filled with the stench of carrion - sometimes the walls begin to ooze disgusting substances. That is what the presence of a god (or powerful being) does - it warps reality around them to reflect their inner self. This is how domains form, I think, and why Greater Gods tend to have their own, and allow lesser gods to dwell with them. Also, a dead god's domain would be 'shunted' out of the Ether, into the Astral (hence, the giant floating 'corpses' - really just the material matter left over from their domain). One question - why did you have Shar and Selūne come before Chauntee? I thought that officially they had come after. BTW, the last part about the conflict spawning the 'fell forces' - it sounds an awful lot like the Four Horseman of the Apocalypse; War, Famine, Death, and Pestilence! I like that, because I try to rectify my 'Over-Cosmology' with all of the local little ones, and those beings are primeval powers of darkness (off of which split many of the various 'dark Gods' we are familiar with). On a side note - I really like the fact that the authors of WotSQ created two seperate Demoneb Pits at the end - the one she left, and the newly created one. That ties directly into your theories about how godly domains are 'sheared off' from main planes, and become seperate 'demi-planes' in local cosmologies. Its also a nice nod to the 'Great Wheel", which is obviously the older, now broken, Demonweb Pits. I prefer to think of Archtypes as still connected, so there must be some essence of her former self still hanging out in her old Domain; she probably just moved her main one to FR (more Dark Elves then anywhere else, and the birthplace of the Drow), and left an Avatar or two behind.
Soltares 07-01-07, 03:41 PM	The bit about Talona is interesting, in that it is assumed in the D&D system that nature and life and living things are inherently 'good' and death and decay and undead are inherently 'evil.' Talona manages to tweak that assumption, by representing a form of life that is manifestly not 'good.' In her own way, she goes against the grain as strongly as the idea of good-aligned necromancers. Then again, Talona used to just be the goddess of poison. Myrkul was the god of disease, but Talona snagged that portfolio after his unfortunate accident (Kelemvore sure didn't seem to want it...).
Valgard 07-01-07, 04:06 PM	I just wanted to coment that there's no reason why the Barrens of Doom and Despair were'nt originally a completely different plane full of life as Gray describes how a possible plane for Talona would or should be. Probably, the plane were Talona resided was part of Chauntea's original plane (maybe in the Astral or in the House of Nature) that fragmented after the goddess of poison and disease was 'corrupted' and succumbed to the destructive side of life, and the part that was Talona's deific domain was transformed to the Barrens that we know today.
MarkusTay63 07-01-07, 04:38 PM	Now that last part sounds EXACTLY like what happened to the Queen of Air and Darkness. More parallels? :smirk:
Gray Richardson 07-01-07, 06:41 PM	Myrkul was the god of disease, but Talona snagged that portfolio after his unfortunate accident (Kelemvore sure didn't seem to want it...).Myrkul actually never had disease. Myrkul had: The Dead, wasting, decay, corruption, parasites, old age, exhaustion, dusk, autumn. Myrkul probably picked up decay, corruption, and parasites from Moander (sounds nasty doesn't it?) who had those portfolios back in the time of Netheril. He could not have gotten them from Jergal as Jergal did not have them at that time. It would have been easy to steal portfolios from Moander, though, as Moander has died on more than one occasion leaving his portfolios up for grabs. Talona appears to always have had disease (poor thing). There are many notable plagues throughout Faerūn's history that can be traced back to her. The Finnish goddess Kiputytto interloped over from Earth at some point in the distant past and challenged Talona's supremacy over disease, but Talona beat the tar out of her and chased her back to Earth. Actually, Kipputytto may be truly dead, because if she was only a single sphere goddess from an Earth pantheon, and if her bid to re-establish herself in another sphere failed, then she might be floating in the Astral. I doubt there is enough interest in her now among Earth's Finnish population to sustain her. ;)
Gray Richardson 07-01-07, 07:20 PM	I just wanted to coment that there's no reason why the Barrens of Doom and Despair were'nt originally a completely different plane full of life as Gray describes how a possible plane for Talona would or should be. Probably, the plane were Talona resided was part of Chauntea's original plane (maybe in the Astral or in the House of Nature) that fragmented after the goddess of poison and disease was 'corrupted' and succumbed to the destructive side of life, and the part that was Talona's deific domain was transformed to the Barrens that we know today.Not sure how these entities spawned exactly. A couple of theories: 1) Shar could have given birth to them. Their fathers could be various gods of other cosmoses that Shar seduced in her bid to collect forces to mount an army against her sister. Not sure if the primary goal was to seduce those gods (with the resulting offspring unplanned) or if the desire was to intentionally get children from them, in which case she might have selected their fathers vary carefully for ceratain desirable traits. Hextor, in fact, strikes me as a good candidate for War's father, given that his multiple arms is a trait he shares with Garagos. 2) the Gods may have just sprung up fully formed as each new concept (or meme) entered Realmspace. Thus Death might have just appeared with the first death. Murder with the first murder and of course War when Shar commanded her troops to battle for the first time. In this sense the fell gods definitely do resonate somewhat with the myth of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. In the former case I would think her children would have hung out in the plane of Shadow until the invasion was ready to begin, and in the latter case I think they would not have automatically generated planes divine Realms. The war was a busy time. If they had divine realms at all these might have been lands in the Astral or House of Nature that they had captured as part of the war. I tend to think that who was going to live where (after all, there appear to be new gods springing up left and right around the time of the War) was all hammered out and decided on at the conference at Cynosure that ended the War and produced some sort of document (which may or may not be a part of the Tablets of Ao) that was to govern godly affairs in the Great Tree going forward. This may have been why and where the Astral got fractured, as sections of Chauntea's astral may have indeed been portioned off to the new gods, and even Chauntea's portion became the plane of the House of Nature. Certainly I think Fury's Heart, a dark reflection of the House of Nature, and the embodiment of nature's wrath, was torn from the House of Nature by Talos/Kozah for his own plane. The god of War got his own plane, and it is relatively nice for him, not a hell by any means, in fact ideally suited for his purposes, so his plane was not any kind of punishment. The Fugue, likewise, seems ideally suited for Death. But I just kind of like the idea that Talona was singled out, possibly unfairly (which may be one of the sources of her constant woe) and that, rather than allow her to take some territory she had won in the War, or be granted a territory, they crafted a special plane for her that was inimicable to her, a place that was contrary to her, one where she could not flourish. I do not think it was necessarily intended as a punishment, though doubtless Chauntea had no love of here, and would not have been concerned if the place had that effect on her, but rather I think it was definitely created as a place of containment, a plane in which she could subsist but not thrive. I get the feel that it was definitely intended to hem her in. This all stems of course from the very name of the plane: the Barrens of Doom and Despair, which connotes an infertile place where one meets one's fate and loses all hope--a perfect description of what happened to Talona. But Talona has certainly done a lot with the place, at least in her little corner of it. Her Palace of Poison Tears, and its environs, is the one place on the plane where you can find lots of water in the marshes there, and life thrives within the limits of her domain, teeming with bugs and parasites and poisons plants of all kinds. It is a paradise of sorts for her, albeit limited in size.
Soltares 07-01-07, 09:03 PM	Talona appears to always have had disease (poor thing). Huh, I just checked Forgotten Realms Adventures, and you are indeed right, Talona was indeed goddess of poison *and* disease. Never mind the crazy person in the corner...
MarkusTay63 07-01-07, 09:20 PM	I have to learn to make shorter posts. Obviously people skip the long ones. :rolleyes: The Finnish goddess Kiputytto interloped over from Earth at some point in the distant past and challenged Talona's supremacy over disease, but Talona beat the tar out of her and chased her back to Earth.Where is this from?
Razz 07-02-07, 12:04 AM	I have to learn to make shorter posts. Obviously people skip the long ones. :rolleyes: Where is this from? I think Faiths&Avatars...maybe. I do remember reading about Kiputytto and that Talona killed her because of the rules of Ao. That being no two gods with the same portfolios can share the same pantheon. They have to duke it out to see who has the right to take over, leaving the former deity dead or reduced to a demigod with a portfolio over a sub-category of the original portfolio. (e.g. Tempus and Garagos)
Gray Richardson 07-02-07, 02:27 AM	Yes, Faiths & Avatars. Talona took Kiputytto's name as an alias. There are three deities of Finnish origin that have had some success establishing themselves in the Realms: Kiputytto, Mielikki, and Loviatar. This would suggest that a population of Finns from Earth came through a portal and settled in Faerūn sometime in the distant past. It would have had to have been over 1400 years ago, perhaps even much longer, because Kiputytto was slain by Talona in -33 DR as the result of a plague competition that wiped out Asram. For all we know these Finns brought over the entire Finnish pantheon, but only 2 of the gods have managed to make it to the current day. Both Mielikki and Loviatar are doing quite well, though. Very few people in Faerūn would ever suspect these 2 gods were not native to Toril. If the other Finnish gods came with them, they were slain or absorbed into other gods or forgotten long ago, as there is no record of them that I am aware of.
MarkusTay63 07-02-07, 04:35 AM	Wait until I do my Kalmyk piece for CK.... ;)
Yanagita Kunio 07-02-07, 03:09 PM	Heh. Given the number of sky/storm gods in Finnish myths, maybe they all arrived and gotten eaten by Talos, prompting his transition from his Netherese version to his current one. --- A less whimsical thought--Gond Wonderbringer reminds me a great deal of Seppo Ilmarinen, particularly in the way his focus on creation sometimes leads to mishaps when said inventions actually circulate. --- An odd connection would be Milil and Väinämöinen, though nothing as simple as one being an alias of the other. At the end of the Kalevala Väinämöinen acts in hubris and is shamed before the people, ultimately departing Kalevala in a copper boat for points unknown. Perhaps at some point he washed up in Faerun, and Milil is a by-blow of his. --- Another observation--the Finnish Loviatar/Louhi is blind, disfigured/scarred woman (and often a crone, as well), while the Faerun Loviator is, well, a dominatrix by way of Vargas illustration. Also, the former is directly associated with bodily ailments--specifically in the Rune 45, where she's described as being impregnated by the wind, then bearing nine sons--each the embodiment of a disease, excepting the unnamed ninth son, who is the embodiment of envy. The first eight she sends to attack Kalevala, the last she drives away "to the lowlands" as a witch. Now comes the twisty bit: Talona has physical traits reminiscent of the Finnish Loviatar (age, scars), as well as the disease "portfolio." However...her character pretty much congeals "envy"--the need for respect, the hot/cold attention-seeking and aloofness, the alternate role of healer and plague-bringer. I'd say Talona is (at least in part) "the ninth disease" cast forth by Loviatar in the Kalevala. [I'm aware that Disease was born directly of the War of Darkness and Light. Whatever that initial godling was, I suspect it was somewhat less anthropomorphic in its motives and drives, but that it's portfolio was eventually consumed by what is now Talona.] Basically--the "ninth disease" interlopes, perhaps seperate from the rest of the Finnish pantheon (I like the idea of it/him fleeing ahead of them, and by serendipity they arrive at the same place). By conceptual lien from its envious nature, the entity develops the portfolio of poison. Settling into Faerun, it eventually envelopes the primal deity figure of disease. When the Finnish pantheon begins to interlope, this figure challenges Louhi/Loviatar for Disease--and nominally wins--only to realize that the former has essentially abandonned that portfolio element in favor of Pain. The now-recognizable Talona "steals" not just the powers of Loviatar, but also her physical aspect in all its grimness (yes--including a gender reassignment)--injury atop insult, as the Finnish crone is re-cast as a pristine beauty. With Talona unable to best her mother, the two fall into their now-standard pattern of goading by one and resentment by the other. For an explanation of their relationship, read or watch Mommy Dearest--The "Maiden" of Pain undermines and humiliates her daughter the "Mother of All Plagues," while the latter alternately withdraws and lashes out as part of a struggle for recognition.
MarkusTay63 07-02-07, 05:04 PM	I don't want to give too much away, but the Finnish Pantheon DID NOT interlop FROM Earth. At least thats the spin I'm planning; I'm tired of so many peoples coming TO Toril. Kalmyk - Kalevala ;)
Gray Richardson 08-21-07, 02:57 AM	Glad this thread was not lost in the site reboot! I thought it had been archived! I expect to find a lot to discuss when the Grand History of the Realms comes out in just a few short weeks. In the Grand History I expect, and authors have hinted, there will be at least a few questions answered about gods, planes and creator races. It has been hinted that facts about Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal's ascension may be revealed. Possibly some revelation about the Supreme Throne and Limbo. And hopefully some more concerning the Dawn Cataclysm. It will be fun to take stock and see how many questions brought up in this thread have been answered, and also to see what remains to be answered--and what new questions will arise. We should have a much better picture of a planar chronology of the cosmology of Toril after the book comes out, and beyond what is explicitly revealed, we may be able to read between the lines and draw inferences to fill in more gaps. No doubt it will take some time to digest all the info, but that is half the fun. I am looking forward to mining the book for lore for (hopefully) a very long time to come.
Iakhovas 01-06-08, 11:36 AM	:bump: Come back Gray. We miss you!
MarkusTay63 01-06-08, 02:21 PM	Of course, in a few short months we will have to re-figure evrything all over again. :P
Gray Richardson 01-06-08, 03:18 PM	True, but (hopefully) the continuity of the history of the planes will not be changed much. Sure several planes will be destroyed, but that's okay because planes in the FR cosmos have often been destroyed, or lost their ties to the Astral and faded away, for example, Zigguraxus, the plane of the Mulhorandi gods, is in the process of disappearing, if it has not yet gone completely. And there are certainly many more planes of dead gods and lost pantheons that have vanished over the ages, dropping off like dead leaves from a tree. And, although we are apparently moving to a nautical metaphor for the cosmos, ie. islands in a sea vs. leaves on a tree, that's okay too because the tree model was always just a metaphor for describing in simple terms what is a very esoteric and complex hyperdimensional metaphysical schema, that was not ever actually a tree. Just as the atom is often pictured quaintly as a solar system of electrons orbiting a nucleus, while more current models envision the atom as various configurations of dumbbell-shaped probability clouds. Neither model expresses the whole truth. They are just tools to help us wrap our brains around the concept, and both models are useful for that purpose. I think the islands metaphor serves just as well as the tree metaphor. No doubt some sages in Faerun will continue to look upon the planes as a "tree", even though the "islands" metaphor is coming more into fashion these days.
Gray Richardson 01-06-08, 03:53 PM	We were given a glimpse of the emerging core cosmology on the wizards main site, and it will be interesting to see what they end up with for the FR cosmology. It was mentioned quite ominously in the Grand History that only planes that were aligned with a greater god might survive following the explosion of Dweomerheart. But after a brief survey, I am much encouraged, as very few planes actually lack an affiliation with a greater god. The only planes that appear to be in jeopardy because they don't have a greater god are: Gates of the Moon (unlesss Selune waxes to greater godhood status in time), Dweomerheart is of course confirmed destroyed, Hammergrim also is confirmed destroyed, Dragon Eyrie, the Fated Depths (which was practically dying anyway), and the Blood Rift. That's all. Every other plane has at least one greater god to protect it. The Abyss is a special case, because we know it is being moved into the elemental chaos. The Nine Hells we are told will also be spared because it has been revealed that Asmodeus has actually been the avatar of a greater god. Dragon Eyrie may be spared, I don't know for sure, none of the dragon gods were ranked as greater gods in 3e. However, Bahamut appears to have achieved greater god status in 4e, so maybe he can save Dragon Eyrie. I don't know about Tiamat either, she lives in Dragon Eyrie and perhaps she is sufficiently strong to save it. But it could certainly be on the chopping block. All in all, I am encouraged that there may not be quite as much mayhem among the planes as I originally feared. Not that I don't expect some major changes. We are told Brightwater is growing in size and prominence as several deities are moving into the plane. It appears destined to become the preeminent celestial metropolis of the FR planes. Not bad for a plane that is itself less than a century old. And there looks to be some major shakeups in the House of the Triad. We may even see a name change. They may go back to calling it "Celestia" or the "Celestial Mountains" or the "House of Torm" or some such, will have to wait and see how that turns out. What I am most excited about is that the plane of Faerie appears to be coming back big time. Redubbed the Feywild, we know this plane has long had tenuous connections with Faerun, once strongly tied to Toril, those connections have grown faint over the millenia as the fey have retreated to Faerie. But the designers promise to devote some attention to Faerie in 4e. I can't wait to see what they do with this plane. Maybe we will even get a fey sourcebook. And hopefully we will get some answers to the mystery of the fey creator race and their history.
Suin Bahhar 01-06-08, 04:21 PM	What do you think they"ll do with the Fugueplane? Jergal is powerfull enough to protect this realm with a little help from apprentice Kelemvor but he could have other interests.
Gray Richardson 01-06-08, 05:23 PM	I find it interesting, if somewhat odd, that the kobold gods live in Clangor, the plane of the goblin gods, rather than Dragon Eyrie, home of the draconic gods. We learned recently in the Grand History of the Realms a great deal about the origins of the kobold pantheon. We are told that Kurtulmak was the first of the dragonspawn, king of a kobold nation called Darastrixhurthi, ascended to godhood by Asgorath upon his death circa -24,500 DR. We know also that Asgorath raised up Kuraulyek, leader of the urds, around the same time. We learned that Kurtulmak considered Kuraulyek a traitor, and so Kuraulyek fled from him and established his divine realm in a cave beneath the Barrens of Doom & Despair. I would think that Kurtulmak would have originally established his divine realm in Dragon Eyrie, but in modern times he realms in Clangor with the goblin deities. How did this come to be? Well, it may be that Kurtulmak fell into disfavor with Asgorath, or Tiamat or one or more other dragon gods, and so had to flee Dragon Eyrie seeking shelter in Clangor. But I think a better explanation might be that Kurtulmak grew in stature and power enough to be motivated to split his divine realm off from Dragon Eyrie and set up his own plane, the plane of Clangor, and that perhaps the goblins moved in to his plane when they interloped to Toril. I figure (based on information in Races of Faerun) that goblins interloped to Toril roughly sometime between -19000 DR and -15,000 DR. This is several millennia after the kobolds had been around. So it is a reasonable deduction (though certainly not the only possible conclusion) that Clangor was a kobold plane, long before Maglubiyet and his ilk took up residence there. They may not be friendly nowadays, but it could be possible that kobold mages were responsible for bringing goblins to Toril as allies or maybe mercenaries to help them fight a war or protect them from dwarves or giants or raging dragons or such. The kobold and goblin pantheons may have been allied at first, which may be why they live on the same plane. Alternatively the goblins might have been brought to Toril originally as kobold slaves. Perhaps goblins were of a size and disposition that kobolds thought they could easily dominate the race, though that might have proved later to be not such a good plan. But this gives us some info to tentatively put the plane into the chronology. I would suggest that Clangor arose as a plane in FR sometime after -24,500 DR when the kobold pantheon sprung up, and probably no later than -15,000 DR by which time goblins should have become established in the Realms, per Races of Faerun.
Gray Richardson 01-06-08, 05:40 PM	The Grand History of the Realms also reveals that dwarves originated in the Yehimal range circa -16,000 DR, which seems like the best date we have for the creation of the plane of Dwarfhome. Though I surmise that Moradin had visited the Realms cosmos long before. I have a strong inkling that he was one of the deities from beyond the cosmos that came to Selune's aid in the War of Light and Darkness between Selune and Shar. If so, then it might have been the impetus for Moradin the soul forger to recreate the dwarves in Faerun or alternatively to lead them to travel to Toril from another world so that they could establish a colony in the Realms. Perhaps that was the price Selune paid for his aid in the war, promising him that he could bring his children to the Realms, thereby increasing the number of crystal spheres that raise their voice to him in prayer. Selune may have made similar promises to Corellon and Annam, and Oghma and Silvanus, and perhaps even Tyr to enlist their aid against Shar. I imagine Shar likewise made similar pacts with Asmodeus, the yugoloths and the Abyss in order to use their fiends as shocktroops in her war against Selune, a pact which ensured that those fiends would ever after have a planar foothold in the Realms from which to work their evil.
Gray Richardson 01-06-08, 05:51 PM	What do you think they"ll do with the Fugueplane? Jergal is powerfull enough to protect this realm with a little help from apprentice Kelemvor but he could have other interests.Well, Kelemvor is a greater god, so I don't expect he will have any real problem securing the plane against the coming PSE (planes-shaking event). But beyond that it is hard to say what will happen. There are certainly a lot of storylines you could spin around Kelemvor. And if any of the storylines in Eric Boyd's conversion notes from the Age of Worms campaign arc in Dungeon magazine work their way into the canon metaplot, then it may be that Jergal could some day make a bid to regain his greater godhood and take back the Fugue from Kelemvor. But my guess is that the Fugue will remain pretty much the same as it is for now. Or not. We will have to wait and see how that all shakes out.
MarkusTay63 01-06-08, 07:38 PM	Well, with all the designers are saying about the lore changes to Gods (that Sehanine and Selūne are one and the same), the whole War of Light and Darkness might be nothing more then a myth. I do like that the Goblins were brought in by the Kobolds. Perhaps the rift that somehow formed between the Draconic Gods and Kurtulmak lead to a war in which both brought in outsiders for help. It would make a good 'in' for the Dragonborn in 4e - perhaps they have been in stasis, or on one of those other land-masses on the map.
Gray Richardson 01-07-08, 03:03 AM	with all the designers are saying about the lore changes to Gods (that Sehanine and Selūne are one and the same), the whole War of Light and Darkness might be nothing more then a myth.I am not too worried about that comment from Rich Baker, if I remember right, he only posed it as a question. He didn't state definitively that they have decided to go that route in 4e. I think his exact quote was: I will say this much: We think that some of the deities in demihuman pantheons might really be Faerunian deities "known by another name." For example, is Sehanine just the elven name for Selune? Or is Sehanine an avatar of Selune?I honestly believe that is a valid question to ask. Even though my own answer to that question would be "probably no". There is no harm in asking the question. They haven't locked themselves into an answer yet. It's a fun idea to ponder. And even though I or you might not see it that way, you might find Faerunian sages who would take the opposite view from us. And I cannot say for sure that it is outside the bounds of possibility. As Ed Greenwood has said about the gods:mortals 'know' lots of things about the gods that are just plain untrue, because gods lie to them, priests lie to them (sometimes unwittingly, through passing on church doctrine they don't know to be false or invented by a priest sitting nearby or of a previous century or three), and rumors distort everything, leading to 'common folk knowledge' that says a lot of things about the gods that aren't true. and in another quote:both freelancers and TSR/WotC staffers debate the “true” nature of the FR gods frequently, and that one of the reasons fan arguments about the gods are largely useless except as entertainment for all involved (ahem, like the Eilistraee/Vhaeraun discussions that proceed sporadically here in Candlekeep) is that we still haven’t published some important things about the gods (in other words, the views and understandings of them held by all readers of Realms material are limited and therefore almost certainly incorrect or only partially correct). Which is a long way of saying that the tendency of gods, priests, lore-books, sages, and those who report the Realms to us (such as Elminster) to lie, distort, omit, or just pass on their own ignorance to us gives “wiggle room” to every DM to answer the blizzard of questions I posed above any way they like.Combine that with our knowledge that a single god can fragment and become 2 or more separate gods. Gods can also have aliases and receive worship by different names and dramatically different conceptions. Gods in the Realms tend to don and doff personas with schizophrenic vigor. These alternate personas manifest almost like multiple personality syndrome. I figure that a god may start out playing a role for his worshipers (eg. Tiamat and Entropy), but then for some gods the character becomes more and more real until it is a separate personality (eg. Akadi and Teylas). And then sometimes the alternate personality fragments off and becomes a full-blown god in its own right (arguably Garagos & Tempus, or Lurue and Mystryl, or the World Serpent and Mersshaulk). At least that is my theory anyways. While it is convenient to think of gods as powerful people with defined identities, it is important to remember that they are not. I tend to think of gods more as divine amoeba, in that they are malleable, can split off into separate entities (as if undergoing mitosis), or even absorb the identities of other gods (for instance the Adama is a gestalt deity, sort of). Gods also share qualities with memes, that is, ideas which propagate themselves from mind to mind in almost viral fashion, sometimes mutating and evolving as they propogate. Gods are meme-like in that they resemble the concept of them that is held by human minds, and their personalities and appearance change as people's conceptions of them change. To some extent, even a god's personal history can be altered by the legends and tales and beliefs of his worshipers. So is it possible that Selune and Sehanine are fragments of the same deity? Or that Sehanine is an alias of Selune? Maybe. We can't rule it out. We can never really know for sure. But hopefully there will be enough ambiguity and plausible deniability, that a DM can decide for himself either way how he wants it for his own campaign.
Stigger 01-07-08, 06:45 AM	Glad they have that mostly worked out to justify it. Still isn't changing in my game no matter who says what... ;) :D
Gray Richardson 01-07-08, 10:13 AM	And I think that is exactly the right way to approach it. The DM's word is law. He has to decide these questions of gods and metaphysics in the way that is right for his campaign, a way that he feels comfortable with. While it is fun to discuss and debate such things, there is no true "right" answer that applies to all campaigns. And Ed Greenwood himself has long been a strong supporter of that philosophy, especially with respect to the Realms.
MarkusTay63 01-07-08, 05:15 PM	Yeah, I think the one thing they may have learned from 3e is to NOT set things in stone. 2e's approach was more along the lines "some scholars believe", whereas 3e just handed us hard and cold facts. By saying 'this god could be that one, or they could both be pieces of yet another higher being', they leave the specifics to US, which is so much better for gaming. On another note, I was thinking on the Dragonborn again. I didn't like them when I read about them in the R&C Preview (mostly because I dislike Draconians, which is basically what they are). Now I'm thinking that if they were hooked into some other lore, already established, they might not be so bad. Enter the Khaasta! :dancin: Perhaps, during some primordial war, maybe even one between Kurtulmak and the Dragon gods, when both sides sought allies, The Dragon Gods created the Khaasta to serve them against the endless armies of Goblinoids that Kurtulmak brought into Toril's sphere. However, the Goblin Gods soon fought with Kutulmak, and amongst themselves, about who will rule in the new order of things once they won, an they alliance quickly fell apart. Not knowing what to do with the dragonborn Soldiers they held ready in a demi-plane, they gave them to Demogorgon as payment for his aid in the war (which never wound up happening). The deal was that Demogorgon and his Demons would fight on the side of Dragons, and the Khaasta were given to him to 'hold onto' in the eventually that the war would indeed break out. It never did, and eventually he grew tired of his legions of Dragonborn, and released them from servitude (this explains why demogorgon had a moment of 'niceness' - the Khaastas were never really his to begin with, and he got tired of 'baby-sitting' them). Now, as per Serpent Kingdoms, we know that Khaastas have been slowly entering the Realms, in search of the now-defunct Sarrukh Empires. By the time of the new 4e campaign date, perhaps many of these creatures have given up the search, and have taken up the life of adventurers and mercenaries? So, we needn't add anything to the Realms in 4e, just change a little bit of the back-story. After all, the Khaastas probably thought Demogorgon created them, after so many thousands of years. Hows that? :D
Gray Richardson 01-08-08, 02:37 PM	One of the other cool planar treats that we can find in the Grand History of the Realms on p.55 is an origin for the race of planar constructs called the Maugs, found in the Fiend Folio. These hulking stone mercenaries are based in the plane of Acheron, in the Great Wheel cosmology, and reside in the plane of Hammergrim in the FR cosmology. The Fiend Folio only has sketchy info about their origins. It tells us that scholars suspect that maugs first served as shock troops in an ancient war between two empires, and that one or the other side in the war banished the first maugs to Acheron. The first maugs had learned enough magic from their creators that they could craft a great army of maugs from the stone and scrap metal they found in the plane, and now sell their services as mercenaries to anyone who will meet their fee. Those ancient maugs are known by their fellows as the Thulkarr, and they rule the maugs to this day. But George Krashos has revealed some more intriguing details about them. In the GHotR we learn that around -160 DR Narfell attacked Raumathar with legions of frost-giant servitors of Kostchtchie and demons from the Abyss. The Raumathari repelled them with great magic learned from Imaskar, and subsequently Thulkarr, the general of the Raumathari army, launched a counter offensive against Narfell employing legions of great stone constructs. In a desperate gamble, the summoners of Narfell opened portals to the Abyss within or next to the portals that the Raumathari had opened into Narfell and were streaming through. The interaction between the portals created a massive planar rift that sucked the Maugs into "otherness", presumably Acheron or Hammergrim or some other plane from which they migrated to their current bases. So what we can glean from the GHotR is that the two unnamed waring empires were Narfell and Raumathar; that Raumathar created the maugs using magic learned from Imaskar; and that the maugs took the name of the Raumathari general Thulkarr as the title for their own ruling caste. A splendid piece of writing by George, check out the original on p.55. That's one of the things I love about the Grand History, it's chock full of great stories and amazing little details that help us fill in the gaps.
ripvanwormer 01-12-08, 12:47 AM	Selune waxes to greater godhood status in time) This is likely, since they said that they're getting rid of the intermediate deity category in 4e.
ripvanwormer 01-14-08, 11:12 PM	What I am most excited about is that the plane of Faerie appears to be coming back big time. Redubbed the Feywild, we know this plane has long had tenuous connections with Faerun, once strongly tied to Toril, those connections have grown faint over the millenia as the fey have retreated to Faerie. But the designers promise to devote some attention to Faerie in 4e. I can't wait to see what they do with this plane. Maybe we will even get a fey sourcebook. And hopefully we will get some answers to the mystery of the fey creator race and their history. Have you seen this article (http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drfe/20080110&authentic=true) yet? c. -10,500 DR -- The leShay establish the kingdom of Sarifal; its capitol the shining city of Karador built upon a small island at the center of the shimmering blue waters of Myrloch, a large lake nestled within a great vale on the Moonshae's central island.
Gray Richardson 01-15-08, 12:00 AM	Yes, Brian did an excellent job with that article! :w00t: I know he is very interested in the creator races and what marks they have left upon Toril's history. It's wonderful to see him doing something with the LeShay. I know many people have speculated that Toril's fey creator race might have been the LeShay, or at least counted the LeShay among their number, and this article seems to lend credence to that idea. Although, when I went back and read the description of the LeShay in the Epic Handbook, I was surprised how much their description seems to be based on Elric of Melnibone. And I notice that the origin of the LeShay in another universe would seem to preclude them from having arisen as native to Toril. So perhaps they were merely allied with the fey creator race, immigrating to Faerūn through the fey crossroads that Toril's fey linked to the Feywild. Regardless, it is nice to see them get used in Realmslore, and this could lead to all sorts of interesting story hooks to develop. I hope that Brian or other authors will build upon that lore. I will be checking out the Worlds & Monsters book coming out next month to see if there are any hints about the Feywild, insights into its development and backstory, or any ties to Toril. While it is probably too soon to hope for Realms-specific fey lore to be revealed just yet, I do hope that they address Toril's ties with Faerie sometime in the next year or so. I am rooting for them to write a "Sylvan Kindoms" sourcebook in the style of Serpent Kingdoms to elaborate the lore of the fey creator race and their descendants. :elf:
Stigger 01-15-08, 01:59 PM	I would be so completely in favor of a Sylvan Kingdoms book... even if it is for 4e Realms.
MarkusTay63 01-16-08, 09:29 PM	Absolutely - that would have been something that would have sold well in 3e and even 2e, so it's long overdue. I think the Feywild is the main reason I jumped onboard the '4e express'. :D
Iakhovas 01-16-08, 11:57 PM	I am rooting for them to write a "Sylvan Kindoms" sourcebook in the style of Serpent Kingdoms to elaborate the lore of the fey creator race and their descendants.Now that is an awesome idea! Want to write it with me Gray? :smirk:
Gray Richardson 01-17-08, 01:39 AM	Now that is an awesome idea! Want to write it with me Gray? :smirk:Just say the word, and in a hearbeat I am there! :plotting: Actually, I picked up Worlds & Monsters today, and there are a lot of nifty ideas in there (the art is pretty too). They are doing some very interesting things with fomorians and the Feywild. They are crafting a vision of Faerie that you can really wrap some good stories around. It will be exciting to see how that gets integrated into the lore of the Realms. Your Moonshaes article gives some tantalizing hints. I can't wait to read more lore like that!
Purple Dragon Knight 01-18-08, 03:45 PM	Gray, Brian has confirmed that the LeShay are one of the creator races on the CK forums. He said it all happened in the novel "Darkvision". I'll have to pick up that book now! :rolleyes:
MarkusTay63 01-18-08, 05:19 PM	Well, technically the Le'Shay are whats left of the Fey, as far as we know. Weather they are the originals, who have lived that long, or are just one of many of their decendent offspring (Fey cretaure sub-types?), is yet to be seen with the new 4e rules concerning the Feywild. Personally, I see the Fey as taking on the attributes of certain fey-subtypes, depending upon their alignment and outlook. that means if a Fey changes over the course of its life, so will its outward appearance. This fits with folklore, and some of the wonderful third-party stuff available for D20. So the Le'Shay might just be the closest things to the originals.... as the Shadar-Kai may be their 'dark shadows'. ;) * One last thing - I think they will need to change the 'Fey' subtype to 'Sylvan' or some such in 4e, otherwise there will be a lot of confusion. Then again, I understand they are completely re-vamping that system, so the 'fey' type might be gone altogether. Also, if you guys need ANY HELP what-so-ever doing Fey research, or even just to give anything you write for future sources a 'once over', I would be happy to do so. I'm pretty handy when it comes to fairies... <DON'T even go there> :P
Stigger 01-18-08, 07:48 PM	Remains silent... but listening to Soft Cell at the moment isn't helping much on the snickering...
Gray Richardson 01-18-08, 08:21 PM	You know what? You raise a good point. Reading their entry in the ELH more carefully, it says that the LeShay are the remnants of a once-great race whose origins are lost to history. They "claim" to predate the multiverse. They also indicate that most of their race was wiped out by a dark catastrophe in the remote past that altered time so that their era never existed. I had it in my head that they came from the multiverse that preceded the current one. But since that is only something that they "tell" folks, it may not be exactly true or accurate. Actually, the part about the great catastrophe that altered the timeline jives pretty well with what we know of the Sundering. If, instead of "multiverse" you substitute "original timeline" or "alternate timeline", then their backstory not only does not preclude them from being the fey creator race, but actually seems to support the notion that they could indeed be. Up until recently, the lore had long been pretty vague about whether there was a single fey creator race, or if they were always a loose collective of different fey races such as sprites, uldra, nymphs, dryads, satyrs, etc. The scalyfolk were portrayed as having a single progenitor, the sarrukh, that were revealed to be a very powerful, mad-scientist-like, "creator" race. It was natural for some people to think the fey had some similar progenitor. But I was never sure if that would turn out to be correct, or if the fey creator race was rather simply something like the sprites that we are familiar with. Or maybe something like what they are doing with the eladrin (I mean the 4e interpretation, which is something quite different from the 3e versions). But it seems like the consensus is emerging that the LeShay are the fey creator race, and that actually works just fine for me.
Gray Richardson 01-18-08, 08:26 PM	Bringing the thread back to planar matters, I am still fascinated by the close resemblance that Kara-Tur's Spirit World bears to the plane of Faerie. More so now the way they describe the Feywild in Worlds & Monsters. I can't help but be convinced that the reason that Kara-Tur's "Astral Plane" looks so radically different from Faerūn's is because Kara-Tur is somehow really using the Feywild in lieu of the Astral Plane. This could be because the planar geometry is different in that part of Toril. Perhaps the Feywild is more closely coterminous with Toril in Kara-Tur, or because Kara-Tur was anchored to the Feywild by some spell. It could even be related somehow to the Imaskari god-barrier. Perhaps the Imaskari god-barrier is so particularly strong (or defective, or altered in some way) in the Kara-Tur region that the connections to the Astral sea are severed there. Or that when you try to enter the Astral in Kara-Tur, the god-barrier shunts you into the Feywild instead. Perhaps this is why the divine realms (or "dominions") of the gods of Kara-Tur are attached to their "Spirit World" (aka the Feywild?) instead of to the Astral sea. Now I only suggest the Imaskari as a likely candidate because we know they had a presence in Kara-Tur, and in GHOTR we learned the Shou people are partially descended from the Imaskari. But, assuming that a spell did cause this, it need not necessarily have been caused by the Imaskari, but could have been caused by the LeShay (or their catastrophe) or related to the Sundering in some manner, or may even go back to the War of Light & Darkness. Whatever the reason, I am sure there is a very interesting explanation to be told there.
Gray Richardson 01-18-08, 08:45 PM	Reading about the Shadowfell in Worlds & Monsters, I notice that the Shadowfell has been imbued with some of the qualities of FR's Fugue Plane. I am curious as to whether the Fugue Plane will remain it's own demi-plane in 4e, or if it will turn out to be a demi-plane attached to the Shadowfell, or if it will be situated in the Shadowfell as merely a region (or dominion) controlled by Kelemvor. In 2e, the Fugue Plane was just a region located in the plane of Hades. In 3e it became a separate plane in it's own right. If they relocated it into the Shadowfell in 4e, it would not surprise me. Although I would favor it retaining demi-plane status, though I have no problem with that demi-plane being attached to the Shadowfell in some fashion.
Gray Richardson 01-18-08, 08:54 PM	I am really not clear yet on how the concept of dominions will work in 4e. I am wondering if dominions can only attach to the Astral Sea, or if dominions can be attached to any plane. If it turns out that dominions can be attached to any plane, then it would make sense to me if say the gods of Kara-Tur tended to attach their dominions to the Feywild (instead of the Astral), and for say Fury's Heart to be attached to the Elemental Chaos perhaps, or Kelemvor's dominion to be attached to the Shadowfell, etc. In fact, if the Fated Depths goes away, I could see it slipping into the Elemental Chaos, and then perhaps that is now where you would find Blibdoolpoolp's dominion. Which would jive with where it was in 2e, located in the Plane of Water. Which also places it near the new location of the Abyss, which works well with Eric Boyd's suggestion that Blibdoolpoolp may have originally been an Obyrith who ascended to godhood.
Suin Bahhar 01-19-08, 12:27 PM	:dancin: I like your trains of thought. Karaturan Divine Domains within the Feywild very interesting idea. Do the Celestial Beaurocracy (sp.) have that much resemblance to a plane of Fearie? The elemental chaos was mentioned as lying beneath the setting world. The astral domains above in the sky. This was also hinted at in the realms lore article Tomb of the Astronomer (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4frrl/20070816a)...
MarkusTay63 01-19-08, 01:25 PM	Actually, Gray and I discussed sometime ago that the K-T 'Spirit Realm' was really Faerie, which becomes the Feywild in 4e. The Shadowfell also fits rather nicely, and if applied to 4e K-T as well, then MUCH more of the 3e OA rules become usable in the K-T setting (they are big on the Shadow World in Rokugan). This is why I've applied the breaks (temporarily) to the K-T thread - the 4e rules sound like they will be much more compatible with traditional Oriental Folklore then the old rules ever were. I am SO looking forward to putting together a 4e netbook for that region - the place is going to be hoppin'. :dancin:
Gray Richardson 01-25-08, 01:38 AM	I was thinking about Deep Caverns. This outer plane is the home of such gods as the Great Mother (beholders), Ilsensine (Mind Flayers), and Laogzed (troglodytes). Some other possible divine realms you might find here (no official word, as far as I know, just my best guess) are Gzemnid's realm (beholders), Parrafaire (nagas), and possibly Diirinka (derro) although Hammergrim might be just as good a place to put Diirinka as Deep Caverns. I think it very likely that Ibrandul has his divine realm of Ibrandyllaran here, before he was slain by Shar. A remnant of this realm may still be around if it has not yet faded away, imploded or collapsed completely from lack of divine support. Another god who probably lived in the Deep Caverns, at least until the time that Orcus slew him, was Maanzecorian, the illithid god of secrets and knowledge. Note that Parrafaire was also a god of secrets and the guarding of them. Possibly Parrafaire and Maanzecorian had some association with each other and their lairs might have been adjoining. And I haven't the slightest idea where to put Shekinester, if Parrafaire is on this plane, she might be too. All I know is that her divine realm is named the Court of Light, and in 2e it was in the Outlands which is most equivalent to the House of Nature. Maybe best solution is to have Shekinester live in the House of Nature, and Parrafaire's realm used to be in the underdark of the House of Nature deep below his mother's realm, before it split off from the House of Nature with the rest of the Deep Caverns realms. It is also possible that the Blood Queen Piscaethces of the aboleths abided in this plane for a time, though this is unclear. We are told in Lords of Madness, that she is not a god, but an elder evil, with ties to the Far Realm. As such she may not have a divine realm at all. But she does have clerics, and I think it possible that if there is some fragment, avatar or vestige of her that answers prayers, that perhaps it resides in this plane. And of course, her petitioners have to go somewhere. If they don't go to the Wall or the Far Realms, then it is possible that her petitioners might come to rest in a divine realm sustained in her name in the Deep Caverns. My current theory is that this plane was once part of the House of Nature, I am thinking it was the Underdark region of that plane. But that at some point the gods of the Underdark split it off from the House of Nature to create a plane of their own. If there was a precipitating point that caused the Deep Caverns to break away from the House of Nature, it might be when the plane became corrupted by Far Realms entities (such as the Great Mother, Ilsensine, Maanzecorian, Gzemnid and possibly Piscaethces). We know that the Deep Caverns has ties to the Far Realms, not merely because of the presence of the Great Mother, or Ilsensine, but also because the Players Guide to Faerūn mentions that both Kaorti and Rukarazyll inhabit this plane. This suggests that a portal or rift may exist linking the Deep Caverns with the Far Realm. I don't think necessarily that the Great Mother or Ilsensine came to the Deep Caverns directly from the Far Realm. We know they came to the Realms with their respective peoples--the beholders colonized Faerūn from the planet H'Catha in -2,391 DR when 3 of their colony ships crashlanded in the Alimir Mountains, and the Mind Flayers arrived in spelljamming ships as refugees fleeing from the planet Glyth circa -11,000 DR. But once they ensconced themselves in this plane, they may have established ties back to the Far Realms. I also don't know if the Kaorti came to the Deep Caverns directly from the Far Realms. We know the Kaorti were once Imaskari wizards that traveled to the Far Realms and became tainted by the insane forces of that plane. When the returned to Faerūn, they could have established cysts in the Underdark and perhaps entered the Deep Caverns through a portal or rift linking the Underdark to the Deep Caverns. I have no idea what a Rukarazyll is (beyond its entry in the MM2) at first I thought it was from the Far Realms, but there is no lore linking it directly to that plane (that I know of). It is not an aberration, nor an ooze, but rather an outsider of the evil and earth subtypes. It's entry in the MM2 seems to imply that they also live in the Elemental Plane of Earth. They could possibly have been a creation of Ghaunadaur, or some kind of ooze para-elemental variant. But they look so crazy scary, that I have a strong feeling they must have either come from the Far Realms or become tainted by energy that linked from that dimension. You know, come to think of it, if the plane of Deep Caverns started out as a part of the plane of the House of Nature, then the impetus for it separating from the House of Nature may not have come from the gods who live in Deep Caverns. But rather, if the region had become tainted by Far Realms energies, then the gods of the House of Nature might have cast that region out of the plane, initiating a planar excision in the same way you might amputate a body part infected with gangrene or necrotizing fasciitis. Or if not the gods of that plane, then maybe the plane itself formed a planar cyst around the Deep Caverns region and expelled it, causing it to drift away and become a plane of its own. I think that Hammergrim might have a similar origin, itself splitting off from the plane of Deep Caverns. I think the plane of Hammergrim likely once did not exist except as a part of Deep Caverns, which became entwined with the fate of the Duergar when the dwarves of clan Duergar became enthralled by the Mind Flayers circa -8100 DR in the Mindstalker Wars. Only later when the Duergar freed themselves from thralldom circa -4000 DR and Deep Duerra ascended to godhood would Deep Duerra and Laduguer have the strength and inclination to rip a piece of the Deep Caverns free to found their own plane of Hammergrim--presumably that piece in which the duergar petitioners of Ilsensine were housed. I don't know if Hammergrim split off from the Deep Caverns before or after the Deep Caverns split off from the House of Nature. The Duergar rebellion in -4,000 DR preceded the arrival of the beholders in -2,391 DR, so it is a remote possibility that Deep Caverns did not split off from the House of Nature until after Hammergrim did. I suppose the Deep Caverns split could have happened at any time after -11,000 DR, but probably not much later than -2,000 DR. Precipitating events for the split could have happened circa -11000 when Ilsensine and Maanzecorian settled there, or in -4,000 when the Duergar rebelled against the Illithids, or -2,391 DR when the Beholder gods settled there. Lastly we might consider the possibility that the precipitating event was when the Kaorti came back from the Far Realms and settled in Deep Caverns. Although, for all we know, the Imaskari wizards (a faction known as the Qin) might have originally traveled to the Far Realm by exploring a portal or planar rift that they discovered in the Deep Caverns. If so, then Deep Caverns might have already had existing ties to the Far Realms as far back as -8,000 DR, which would point to the coming of the Illithid pantheon as the event which caused the separation of Deep Caverns from the House of Nature. However, the Imaskari empire did not fall until -2488 DR, so that is a range of over 5,000 years for the Qin to make their initial journey. I don't know if we can draw any conclusions from those dates, but it gives us some date ranges to work with in trying to figure out when Deep Caverns became a plane in its own right.
MarkusTay63 01-25-08, 02:41 AM	Nice thoughts there, Gray. I have nothing to add, ATM. ;)
ripvanwormer 01-27-08, 02:19 PM	I have no idea what a Rukarazyll is (beyond its entry in the MM2) at first I thought it was from the Far Realms, but there is no lore linking it directly to that plane (that I know of). It is not an aberration, nor an ooze, but rather an outsider of the evil and earth subtypes. It's entry in the MM2 seems to imply that they also live in the Elemental Plane of Earth. They could possibly have been a creation of Ghaunadaur, or some kind of ooze para-elemental variant. But they look so crazy scary, that I have a strong feeling they must have either come from the Far Realms or become tainted by energy that linked from that dimension. The rukarazylls were created by James Jacobs for his article "Spawn of Elemental Evil" in Dragon #285. They're defined there as worshippers of Ogrémoch who are allies of the demon queen Zuggtmoy, sometimes serving in the fungus queen's court. The original beautiful illustration of the rukarazyll by Carlo Arellano is still bizarre, but more demonic/obyrith than Far Realmish in my opinion. Their description says their body is "a bulbous mass of seething fungoid matter," which is basically what Zuggtmoy is made of as well (and is different from the alien matter of the Far Realm). Since they have the Earth and Evil subtypes, I'd postulate that they're joint creations of Ogrémoch and Zuggtmoy, using ooze paraelementals and demons of Shedaklah as the raw material. What must Bwimb think of that? Edit: actually, if they were created from demons/manes from Shedaklah, you don't need to put ooze paraelementals into the mix. I forgot who else lived in that Abyssal layer! You just need Ogrémoch to make them more "earthy."
Valgard 01-27-08, 04:58 PM	Good point on the Deep Caverns... just some comments ... possibly Diirinka (derro) although Hammergrim might be just as good a place to put Diirinka as Deep Caverns. I'm going to "put my finger into the wound" but we know from The Grand History of the Realms that in 1383 DR, the Morndinsamman destroy Laduguer and Deep Duerra, and so the Deep Caverns 'go boom' into the Astral Plane. I don't know how much of that information is discarted, but if that's what really happens then only two options are possible: Diirinka and Diinkaranzan are also dead, or they live in Deep Caverns (or possibly one gets one destiny and the other gets the other one, I'm hoping for their survival, by the way). I forgot who else lived in that Abyssal layer! Are you referring to Juiblex? he and Zuggtmoy share their layer and their mutual eternal hate to each other.
ripvanwormer 01-27-08, 10:37 PM	Are you referring to Juiblex? he and Zuggtmoy share their layer and their mutual eternal hate to each other. Yes, I was referring to Juiblex. That line was intended to read as "past tense," i.e., "I only mentioned paraelementals because I had temporarily forgotten that Juiblex was in the same layer, and makes for a neater explanation than paraelemental hybrids do. Now that I've remembered, forget about the paraelemental bit." In the Faerunian cosmology, Juiblex might be an avatar of Ghaunadaur. Or he might just be Juiblex.
Gray Richardson 01-27-08, 11:32 PM	The rukarazylls were created by James Jacobs for his article "Spawn of Elemental Evil" in Dragon #285. They're defined there as worshippers of Ogrémoch who are allies of the demon queen Zuggtmoy, sometimes serving in the fungus queen's court... Since they have the Earth and Evil subtypes, I'd postulate that they're joint creations of Ogrémoch and Zuggtmoy, using ooze paraelementals and demons of Shedaklah as the raw material.Thanks for the background! That makes a lot of sense. Ogremoch has a mention in the Underdark book, and Zuggtmoy has a 3e Realms mention somewhere, if I recall, so they are both still part of FR canon. I have no idea if Ghaunadaur maintains a Jubilex avatar in Shedaklah, but that sounds like a reasonable assumption, so Ghaunadaur might be part of the mix as well. Maybe he participated in their creation, or if not then he could have just captured some from Zuggtmoy and incorporated them into his retinue. I think you have made a convincing case that the Rukarazylls have no ties to the Far Realms. But I wonder how they came to inhabit Deep Caverns? Did they migrate there by means of the River of Blood? Did they travel through a planar rift or portal? (Surely there must be many such links from both the Abyss and the Plane of Earth to the Deep Caverns). Or did Ghaunadaur bring them over only very recently when he relocated to Deep Caverns?
Gray Richardson 01-27-08, 11:49 PM	I'm going to "put my finger into the wound" but we know from The Grand History of the Realms that in 1383 DR, the Morndinsamman destroy Laduguer and Deep Duerra, and so the Deep Caverns 'go boom' into the Astral Plane. I don't know how much of that information is discarted, but if that's what really happens then only two options are possible: Diirinka and Diinkaranzan are also dead, or they live in Deep Caverns (or possibly one gets one destiny and the other gets the other one, I'm hoping for their survival, by the way).I think you mean Hammergrim will be destroyed. Deep Caverns should survive just fine (in theory) as it has at least 2 greater gods to help preserve it. Although I cannot say for certain that it will survive or if it will remain an Astral dominion. It could easily get relocated into the Elemental Chaos. I have no inside knowledge into how the FR cosmology will change. However, regardless of the changes that are in store for the cosmos during the Spellplague event, it should not affect the past history of the Deep Caverns. If Diirinka is indeed located in Hammergrim, my guess is that he could well be destroyed with the Duergar deities. Although, even if the plane of Hammergrim gets destroyed, that does not preclude him from escaping somehow. If however his divine realm is located in Deep Caverns, then it should not pose any problem for him. It's hard to say though if he even still exists in the 3e cosmos, as Diirinka has no 3e mention anywhere in FR lore that I am aware of. But since no one has mentioned him one way or the other, we can assume the 2e lore still holds and that he is still around. I am rooting for the guy. Maybe he will turn up as an exarch of Moradin in 4e. Or maybe he will try to step into the shoes of Laduguer and Deep Duerra and become the new patron of the Duergar (or at least for some offshoot Duergar sects). But, whatever happens I hope he makes it. :)