Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Todesherr 03-05-08, 09:18 PM	There has been much talk about the usual suspects but I want to bring into discussion some other important gods as well as some less important ones. Silvanus, the Oak Father IS a Greater Power yet we have not discussed. He doesn't do much though, eh? Chauntee is a very important goddess, not only a Greater Power but the embodiment of Abeir-Toril as well. Talos, a Greater Power and a major force for evil and chaos in the realms, not necessarily in that order. Oghma, Greater Power, hanging in there; pretty quite though. Ilmater, Intermediate Power, quo vadis, O Ilmater? Waukeen, Lesser Power, but hell, every setting needs a god of trade and wealth, non? Sune, Greater Power of Chaotic Good whimpiness... Drizzt's friend and patron, the Intermediate Forest Goddess, Mel...you know...demoted to a nobody?! Umberlee, that Intermediate ***** of a Queen; is she still angry? Kelemvor, the ever Lawful and Neutral Gray Dude of a Greater Power; still likes those dead folk? Selune...what can I say, Intermediate Power, she was the first along with...:emp: Lesser Power sisters of Pain and Poison, what is up with Talona and Loviator? I have forgottent to mention some, so feel free to add upon it... What do you think will happen to these gods? Sorry for the bad title...uh....insomnia....really tired.
Mr. Wilson 03-06-08, 12:52 AM	My humble views: Silvanus is in as the the patron of high wilderness. Chauntee is for sure in and I can't see her changing much. I'm not sure how she'll react to the loss of Lathander though. Talos is in; I thought I remembered his combining with Gruumsh. Either way, he's the resident destroyer archtype. Oghma is in as the God of knowledge. No major changes I forsee. Ilmater ran off to become a hippy in brightwater. Grrrrr. Waukeen remains around to usher businessmen and women through the tough times. Sune apparently became the best freaking manipulator ever in the realms. And she's still CG for some reason. Melikki will probably be a demi-god under Silvanus. Umberlee drops down to Lesser Power and is now even more terrified of Talos. Still, you need a Sea Deity. There's no reason to believe Kelemvor will change at all, given that he already shed his former past to become death. Selune I think will rise to a more prominent position. We can't have uber powerful Shar without Selune rising up to challenge her. Talona and Loviatar....could be in some trouble. Possibly demoted to demi-gods, possibly hanging around serving Bane as Lesser powers. This one I could see going either way. Shandukal, god knows what they'll do with him. The elemental Lords as well. And of course, I hold my breath and pray for Assuran to survive in some form.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 07:05 AM	-Most of these deities, we are simply going to have to wait and see what happens to them when the 4e stuff is published.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-06-08, 11:19 AM	There's nothing inherently "whimpy" about love, passion and beauty. It makes perfect sense to me that those portfolios are very powerful. Also, while I don't like the recent take on Sune, you can be a great manipulator and still be good. Everyone loves Alustriel of Silverymoon, yet it's been mentioned in the sources that Silverymoon is so strong in part because she is good at manipulating people. It's part of life, in the Realms and in the real world.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-06-08, 11:20 AM	-Most of these deities, we are simply going to have to wait and see what happens to them when the 4e stuff is published. I agree. Speculation can be fun but sometimes I just don't see the point. This is one such time.
Lord Karsus 03-06-08, 11:59 AM	I agree. Speculation can be fun but sometimes I just don't see the point. This is one such time. -At least, not when there is no evidence anywhere to base things off of.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-06-08, 12:06 PM	-At least, not when there is no evidence anywhere to base things off of. Exactly.
Todesherr 03-06-08, 10:00 PM	There's nothing inherently "whimpy" about love, passion and beauty. It makes perfect sense to me that those portfolios are very powerful. Also, while I don't like the recent take on Sune, you can be a great manipulator and still be good. Everyone loves Alustriel of Silverymoon, yet it's been mentioned in the sources that Silverymoon is so strong in part because she is good at manipulating people. It's part of life, in the Realms and in the real world. I disagree. Love, passion and beauty are WHIMPY, at least to the extent that they are undeserving of being the main aspects of a greater power. Lesser power maybe but a greater power?.
Mr. Wilson 03-07-08, 12:51 AM	Also, while I don't like the recent take on Sune, you can be a great manipulator and still be good. Everyone loves Alustriel of Silverymoon, yet it's been mentioned in the sources that Silverymoon is so strong in part because she is good at manipulating people. You are, of course, correct. I was mostly speaking from the distaste of the last 10 years before the Spellplague. And I do believe that Love is a powerful enough force that any God/Goddess I created of Love was in fact a Greater God in my homebrews. Love can drive people to great lenghts, positive or negative. That is a powerful force.
sfdragon 03-07-08, 06:21 AM	my take on mielikki , because of drizzt, i dont see them making her lesser under silvanus. i do wonder about the fate of the red knight
Lord Karsus 03-07-08, 06:41 AM	I disagree. Love, passion and beauty are WHIMPY, at least to the extent that they are undeserving of being the main aspects of a greater power. Lesser power maybe but a greater power?. -Does everyone not experience, to one degree or another, passion, love, and beauty? Of course they do. Sune is a deity who 'draws' power from every single Human (more or less) on Faerūn. Now, I ask you: is a deity who draws power from every single person (more or less) on Faerūn a lesser power, or a greater power?
Kenzuki 03-07-08, 07:14 AM	I was under the impression that your divine rank depended on the number of worshipers that you had.
Lord Karsus 03-07-08, 07:22 AM	I was under the impression that your divine rank depended on the number of worshipers that you had. -Here is the mathematical formula, roughly: DvR = P1 + P2… + (W x F) DvR: Divine Rank P: Portfolios W: Worshippers F: Fervor
GreenKnight 03-07-08, 07:58 AM	That's also why some gods short on worshippers are also Greater Powers. Because of the power they derive from their Portfolios.
Lord Karsus 03-07-08, 08:12 AM	That's also why some gods short on worshippers are also Greater Powers. Because of the power they derive from their Portfolios. -The elemental deities, for instance. -Note that, before the Time of Troubles, the second portion of that formula was virtually nonexistent, or was extremely diminished.
Todesherr 03-07-08, 08:15 AM	That's also why some gods short on worshippers are also Greater Powers. Because of the power they derive from their Portfolios. Such as Talos...only a rank 16 Greater Power... Meh...Sune is just so...not my cup of tea, but I think my real world thinking affects me here.
GreenKnight 03-07-08, 12:15 PM	Selune, by the way, is going to be a Greater God in 4E according to Rich.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-07-08, 01:25 PM	I disagree. Love, passion and beauty are WHIMPY, at least to the extent that they are undeserving of being the main aspects of a greater power. Lesser power maybe but a greater power?. I think Sune being a Greater Power is perfectly fitting. Beauty is so very important to people (in the Realms and in the real world) that it can be unfair, and passion and/or love are often prominent motivations--for all kinds of things--as well.
Todesherr 03-07-08, 08:58 PM	I think Sune being a Greater Power is perfectly fitting. Beauty is so very important to people (in the Realms and in the real world) that it can be unfair, and passion and/or love are often prominent motivations--for all kinds of things--as well. I guess. I have been a DM a few times, though not often and I have never had a player who wanted to play a cleric of Sune. Clerics are ironically my favourite class (ironic because of my atheism) and I have never even entertained the thought of being a cleric of Sune. Based on recollection of the 5 times I was a DM, I had players as 2 clerics of Lathander (pretty popular), one of Torm, one of Tyr and one of Tymora. I have played clerics of Cyric, Torm, Bane, Lathander and Kelemvor. Come to think of it, I understand why the pantheon is being whittled down. Who runs around playing a cleric of Waukeen? or Liira? or Milli? or Loviator? or Deneir? And I repeat cleric. Most of the lesser powers have portfolios that on a playing level, aren't interesting to pcs. With the exception of Torm I personally have never played or seen anyone play a lesser power, let alone a demi-power like the Red Knight or Finder. Evil doer, I am a CG cleric of the goddess of Joy and Dancing...and I will vanquish you by dancing on your head!:D Sune...I guess you are right, but she's not my cup of tea, nor anyone's I have known.
Charles Phipps 03-07-08, 09:18 PM	I guess. I have been a DM a few times, though not often and I have never had a player who wanted to play a cleric of Sune. Clerics are ironically my favourite class (ironic because of my atheism) and I have never even entertained the thought of being a cleric of Sune. It depends on what sort of character you want. You've described Bane, Kelemvor, Lathander, Torm, Tyr, and Tymora whom are the most part gods of adventuring, battle, and heroism. Tymora being the luck goddess is that kind. However, I've played Clerics and Monks of the following gods: Deneir, Loviatar, Finder Wyvernspur, Lliira and Sune. I've also had a bunch of characters worship Waukeen even if they weren't clerics as their Patron Deity. Sune and Llirra were the "Party Guy" clerics and an excuse to be a Bachinalean while also giving hope and justice that don't really come with Sharess' portfolio (though I've had Clerics of her too). Bluntly, there's something to be said for running a "Lesser God"'s Cleric because it allows player characters to be a Big Fish in a Little Pond. You're more likely to be an important figure in the Clergy of Finder-Wyvernspur than if you became one of Tyr's countless Clergy.
Kenzuki 03-07-08, 09:29 PM	I think Sune being a Greater Power is perfectly fitting. Beauty is so very important to people (in the Realms and in the real world) that it can be unfair, and passion and/or love are often prominent motivations--for all kinds of things--as well. I think Sune should have the portfolio of Vanity as well. She seems to be the sort of narrow sighted deity what with her whole stupid belief of "If you're beautiful on the inside naturally you must be beautiful on the out side." The fact that she practically abandons a cleric who's become scarred or marred in some way also furthers my disdain for her. The look on her face when she heard Ao decree that she would have to serve her followers was priceless.
Todesherr 03-07-08, 09:40 PM	I think Sune should have the portfolio of Vanity as well. She seems to be the sort of narrow sighted deity what with her whole stupid belief of "If you're beautiful on the inside naturally you must be beautiful on the out side." The fact that she practically abandons a cleric who's become scarred or marred in some way also furthers my disdain for her. The look on her face when she heard Ao decree that she would have to serve her followers was priceless. Agreed. And look at Torm. He always served his followers, even before Ao's decree.
Charles Phipps 03-07-08, 10:08 PM	This is a goddess who also started supporting Paladins and immediately helped Sharess escape from the slavery of Shar. In other words, she's a deity who actually took Ao's decree to shape up seriously.
Todesherr 03-07-08, 10:33 PM	This is a goddess who also started supporting Paladins and immediately helped Sharess escape from the slavery of Shar. In other words, she's a deity who actually took Ao's decree to shape up seriously. Still a whimp though...
Lord Karsus 03-08-08, 12:52 AM	Based on recollection of the 5 times I was a DM, I had players as 2 clerics of Lathander (pretty popular), one of Torm, one of Tyr and one of Tymora. -Morninglords FTW. I'm currently playing one. :) In other words, she's a deity who actually took Ao's decree to shape up seriously. -Unlike plenty of other deities out there.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 03-08-08, 03:11 AM	I disagree. Love, passion and beauty are WHIMPY, at least to the extent that they are undeserving of being the main aspects of a greater power. Lesser power maybe but a greater power?. Love is one of the most (if not THE most) powerful consepts in life when you fight for money you might turn back and looks for a easier way to earn your money, but when you fight for love NOTHING will make you deviate for your goal (in fantasy not even death). In my line of work some times I feel demoralized and I ask myself If its worth it, but then I think about the love that I have for my family and for my (somewhat) coutry and that drives me on. Shoot in real life my drive is love (the search and "maintanace of it anyways :))
Lord Karsus 03-08-08, 03:15 AM	-Ody likes spreadin' the love. :P
Charles Phipps 03-08-08, 03:18 AM	Overall, it's part of the problem. 99.9% of the world aren't adventurers and have no interest in adventuring deities. Yet the PCs are 100% adventurers. Seriously man, you just said the GODDESS OF LOVE shouldn't be a Greater Goddess. Isn't that one of the most BASIC archetypes?
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 03-08-08, 03:19 AM	:rofl: Ody the Loving Hand of Karsus?
Todesherr 03-08-08, 06:48 AM	Love is one of the most (if not THE most) powerful consepts in life when you fight for money you might turn back and looks for a easier way to earn your money, but when you fight for love NOTHING will make you deviate for your goal (in fantasy not even death). In my line of work some times I feel demoralized and I ask myself If its worth it, but then I think about the love that I have for my family and for my (somewhat) coutry and that drives me on. Shoot in real life my drive is love (the search and "maintanace of it anyways :)) Just neurons and chemicals used for the propagation of our species my friend.;) In real life love is merely a tool utilised by **** sapiens so as to ensure continuation of DNA to the next generation. There is nothing magical about it, nor anything particularly lofty. 'Romantic' love allows for new DNA to come into exitence and parental love for the protection of that DNA. The love between friends is part of the larger hierarchy of things which helps support individual survival and hence reproduction. Those are just the facts. I suppose in fantasy, love and such things are lofty, for lack of a better word but even then they can be overdone. The Dragonlance novels are a perfect example. But of course without naming names it is well known why they have 'ahem' such an angle.
Charles Phipps 03-08-08, 06:57 AM	Just neurons and chemicals used for the propagation of our species my friend. Pffft, according to Frank Herbert, so's every meme. Everything from philosophy, war, religion, and all of your desires or dreams are just part of the human consciousness chugging along to some invisible master plan that only exists to make sure that D.N.A. of the strongest subjects gets passed along while the environment around it is safe and subdued. You know D&D? It's to keep people from wanting to cleave someone's skull in and take their stuff, same for action movies. In other words, everything is biology (a big resounding duh) so why single out love? Of course, Sune is hardly only the goddess of Lust and Desire or romantic courtship but also Agape along with Familal bonds amongst all other forms of Love. Fundamentally of course, the biological urge to procreate and the amount of time that humans spend on it and speculate on it TRUMPS ALL OTHER CONSIDERATIONS. Everything is soaked with sex from beginning to end. Which fits with Frank Herbert's view.
Todesherr 03-08-08, 07:02 AM	Pffft, according to Frank Herbert, so's every meme. Everything from philosophy, war, religion, and all of your desires or dreams are just part of the human consciousness chugging along to some invisible master plan that only exists to make sure that D.N.A. of the strongest subjects gets passed along while the environment around it is safe and subdued. You know D&D? It's to keep people from wanting to cleave someone's skull in and take their stuff, same for action movies. In other words, everything is biology (a big resounding duh) so why single out love? Of course, Sune is hardly only the goddess of Lust and Desire or romantic courtship but also Agape along with Familal bonds amongst all other forms of Love. Fundamentally of course, the biological urge to procreate and the amount of time that humans spend on it and speculate on it TRUMPS ALL OTHER CONSIDERATIONS. Everything is soaked with sex from beginning to end. Which fits with Frank Herbert's view. I am not singling love out. Other people were and ascribing to it a 'lofty' status which it does not have. Yes everything is biology and almost everything can be explained via the need to propagate DNA. The accident which is our consciousness craves too much, too often.
Charles Phipps 03-08-08, 07:22 AM	Accident is something I object to, even when I wasn't a man of Faith. I tend to follow the Einsteinian model of the universe that tends to ascribe there being no accidents. The universe moves in a very particular way and whatever particular way is one that produces life. But that's a debate for another time. Boiled down to it, in a fantasy genre, Love is definitely up there and one of the most important things that people will waste God/ess knows how much time on dissecting.
Todesherr 03-08-08, 07:35 AM	Accident is something I object to, even when I wasn't a man of Faith. I tend to follow the Einsteinian model of the universe that tends to ascribe there being no accidents. The universe moves in a very particular way and whatever particular way is one that produces life. But that's a debate for another time. Boiled down to it, in a fantasy genre, Love is definitely up there and one of the most important things that people will waste God/ess knows how much time on dissecting. Accident in the sense of lack of 'purpose', purpose being an entirely human and contrived term....
Lord Karsus 03-08-08, 09:48 AM	Just neurons and chemicals used for the propagation of our species my friend.;) -When broken down like that, everything is simply to continue the continued survival of out species.
GreenKnight 03-08-08, 03:19 PM	Besides, who needs love to propagate a species when simple lust suffices? Or does anyone really think that when the neighbors dog ruts in your backyard with your dog, that it's because he really and truly loves her?
Charles Phipps 03-08-08, 04:58 PM	Accident in the sense of lack of 'purpose', purpose being an entirely human and contrived term.... Yes, I totally disagree. Accident is a concept of randomness that doesn't exist in a totally ordered universe. BACK FOUL SERVANT OF CHAOS! *lifts WarhammerTM boxed set as holy symbol*
Todesherr 03-08-08, 08:41 PM	Yes, I totally disagree. Accident is a concept of randomness that doesn't exist in a totally ordered universe. BACK FOUL SERVANT OF CHAOS! *lifts WarhammerTM boxed set as holy symbol* Yes, there is order. What does that have to do with the 'greater purpose' mankind has invented and ascribed to himself?
Kenzuki 03-09-08, 10:49 PM	Love isn't the strongest emotion amongst humans. I'de argue that Pride, Hatred, Greed, Lust, and Envy are waaaaay more numerous in most humans than love. Humans are such petty creatures after all.
Charles Phipps 03-09-08, 10:53 PM	Love isn't the strongest emotion amongst humans. I'de argue that Pride, Hatred, Greed, Lust, and Envy are waaaaay more numerous in most humans than love. Humans are such petty creatures after all. Eh, the basic fact is that love in some form is required for every generation to reach adulthood. No matter how much hatred or war a generation experiences, fundamentally someone cared enough to get the next generation old enough to get spears in hand.
Kenzuki 03-09-08, 11:13 PM	Eh, the basic fact is that love in some form is required for every generation to reach adulthood. No matter how much hatred or war a generation experiences, fundamentally someone cared enough to get the next generation old enough to get spears in hand. Not entirely true. You need canon fodder too you know?
Charles Phipps 03-09-08, 11:16 PM	Yes, but I doubt that's ever how it worked. We're not wired that way, much to the deterrent of people who try to do otherwise. But this is way off topic.
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 10:06 AM	Love isn't the strongest emotion amongst humans. I'de argue that Pride, Hatred, Greed, Lust, and Envy are waaaaay more numerous in most humans than love. Humans are such petty creatures after all. -Notice that love is the common denominator for all of those: Pride: Love of a specific attribute Hatred: The complete and utter absence of love Greed: Love of something such that it makes one covet what they have Lust: Love of the basic, primal qualities that attracts a person to another Envy: Love of something such that it makes one jealous
GothicDan 03-10-08, 12:40 PM	Accident is something I object to, even when I wasn't a man of Faith. I tend to follow the Einsteinian model of the universe that tends to ascribe there being no accidents. It was never a model. It was Einstein's emotional reaction, with no actual scientific hypothesis. He also believed that Quantum Mechanics was a bunch of hooplah. :) That being said, for you non-science folks, look up Oxytecin (sp?). It's basically Love.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-10-08, 01:30 PM	I guess. I have been a DM a few times, though not often and I have never had a player who wanted to play a cleric of Sune. Clerics are ironically my favourite class (ironic because of my atheism) and I have never even entertained the thought of being a cleric of Sune. ... Sune...I guess you are right, but she's not my cup of tea, nor anyone's I have known. Understood, but needless to say, that doesn't mean everyone out there agrees with you.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-10-08, 01:32 PM	Overall, it's part of the problem. 99.9% of the world aren't adventurers and have no interest in adventuring deities. Yet the PCs are 100% adventurers. Seriously man, you just said the GODDESS OF LOVE shouldn't be a Greater Goddess. Isn't that one of the most BASIC archetypes? And look at it this way. Fantasy stories that involve love between adventurers (or some other kind of romantic sub-plot) aren't exactly rare.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-10-08, 01:35 PM	In other words, everything is biology (a big resounding duh) so why single out love? I totally agree.:) Everything about the human experience involves chemical reactions in the brain. That doesn't mean it's not important.
AceIllk 03-10-08, 01:45 PM	I totally agree.:) Everything about the human experience involves chemical reactions in the brain. That doesn't mean it's not important. What she said. Also you have to realize there are far more powerful types of love than mere romantic. Any of you with children need but ask yourself what you would do or sacrifice to save them. Patriots bleed and die for country and cause. Anyone that minimalizes Sune or her Domain is perhaps hiding their own limitations. As DM finding gamers with the maturity and depth to handle such 'wimpy' emotions as love and devotion in a gaming setting can indeed prove daunting. And think of this: what Big Bad is more chilling or fear invoking than one utterly devoid of compassion, love or caring? And how intriguing a plot would it be to have Sune's power and place infected by the love of a being so powerful and twisted that her domain was corrupted by the afore mentioned foul entity's passions?
Charles Phipps 03-10-08, 04:02 PM	It was never a model. It was Einstein's emotional reaction, with no actual scientific hypothesis. He also believed that Quantum Mechanics was a bunch of hooplah. :) That being said, for you non-science folks, look up Oxytecin (sp?). It's basically Love. And it turned out to be right, ironically despite Quantum Mechanics.
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 04:33 PM	And it turned out to be right, ironically despite Quantum Mechanics. -Einstein? I'm pretty sure that, in the twilight of his life (Einstein's), Niels Borh refuted all of Einstein's counters.
Kenzuki 03-10-08, 04:47 PM	-Notice that love is the common denominator for all of those: Pride: Love of a specific attribute Hatred: The complete and utter absence of love Greed: Love of something such that it makes one covet what they have Lust: Love of the basic, primal qualities that attracts a person to another Envy: Love of something such that it makes one jealous I would classify those as being corruptions of love rather than being love. Though for a vain God like Sune I could associate Pride with her. She is after all a rather petty god.
Charles Phipps 03-10-08, 04:55 PM	-Einstein? I'm pretty sure that, in the twilight of his life (Einstein's), Niels Borh refuted all of Einstein's counters. I have the funniest feeling we're discussing two different things.
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 05:52 PM	I would classify those as being corruptions of love rather than being love. Though for a vain God like Sune I could associate Pride with her. -Even if you consider those corruptions of love, when broken down, they all stem from the concept of love. The LCD is still 'Love'. She is after all a rather petty god. -I sometimes wonder where you get this from: Beauty is moe than skin deep. I have the funniest feeling we're discussing two different things. -Quantum Physics?
Kenzuki 03-10-08, 05:59 PM	It's the impression I got of her from the Avatar Series and how she acted when she found out she would have to serve her worshippers. It's also from her own dogma and how she will reject priests who obtain scars or marrings. Her belief that "well if you're pretty on the inside you've got to be pretty on the outside." thing. She just seems like the sort of deity I wouldn't want to worship, as she seems little more than an overglorified vain women who despite being a redhead should really be a blond.
Charles Phipps 03-10-08, 06:00 PM	-Quantum Physics? ordered cosmos. Primarily since the laws of physics as we knew them didn't really exist pre-Big bang. And let's talk about FR shall we.
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 06:16 PM	It's also from her own dogma and how she will reject priests who obtain scars or marrings. Her belief that "well if you're pretty on the inside you've got to be pretty on the outside." thing. -Her dogma says no such thing.
Kenzuki 03-10-08, 06:42 PM	Maybe I'm mistaken on that point but I thought I read that somewhere or another. I know Adon sure was freaking out because of his scar for a reason.
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 06:43 PM	Maybe I'm mistaken on that point but I thought I read that somewhere or another. I know Adon sure was freaking out because of his scar for a reason. -The beliefs of a deity, and the practices of their clerics, and/or sects of their churches can be quite different. The High Priest in Memnon, and Selūne, for instance.
Kenzuki 03-10-08, 07:12 PM	-The beliefs of a deity, and the practices of their clerics, and/or sects of their churches can be quite different. The High Priest in Memnon, and Selūne, for instance. Very true. Still, Sune about threw up when she discovered she'd have to actually take care of her followers.
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 07:16 PM	Very true. Still, Sune about threw up when she discovered she'd have to actually take care of her followers. -Most of the deities did. Any non-exemplar leader would.
Kenzuki 03-10-08, 07:33 PM	-Most of the deities did. Any non-exemplar leader would. That only proves my point that most of the Realms gods were little more than super powerful spoiled brats who needed to be taught a lesson by Ao.
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 07:36 PM	That only proves my point that most of the Realms gods were little more than super powerful spoiled brats who needed to be taught a lesson by Ao. -They are classical characterizations of divinities. That kind of thinking is biased, however. Why should a deity have to do that? That's their thinking.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-10-08, 08:37 PM	It's the impression I got of her from the Avatar Series and how she acted when she found out she would have to serve her worshippers. The Avatar series is, like, the worst possible source on what the deities are really like. Use it as your number one source if you'd like, but just because novels are "canon" doesn't mean I always take them as wonderful representations of the setting. Sometimes they aren't.
Kenzuki 03-10-08, 08:41 PM	-They are classical characterizations of divinities. That kind of thinking is biased, however. Why should a deity have to do that? That's their thinking. Why should a mortal worship such a petty creature? They obviously thought wrong because Ao had to put the fear of a real god into them to get them to do their jobs.
GothicDan 03-10-08, 08:42 PM	Charles, what are you talking about, exactly? Speaking as a would-be Theoretical Particle Cosmologist, you're hitting on one of my specialties, here. We have no scientific evidence to posit ANYTHING before the Big Bang, for or against Einstein. The furthest we can currently go back is about 1x10^(-5) seconds after the Big Bang. From what I've ascertained in talking to Dr. Kraus (Nobel Laureate, Theoretical Particle Cosmologist), the laws of Physics actually get simpler the further we go back, due to such high temperatures. Now, seriously. Where are you going with Einstein and this?
Lord Karsus 03-10-08, 11:08 PM	Why should a mortal worship such a petty creature? -The same reason we worship our own deities. Power. Culture. The usual. They obviously thought wrong because Ao had to put the fear of a real god into them to get them to do their jobs. -Ao is not a deity. Nor did they fear Ao. They had jobs to do, slacked off, were punished, and did their jobs properly again. From what I've ascertained in talking to Dr. Kraus (Nobel Laureate, Theoretical Particle Cosmologist), the laws of Physics actually get simpler the further we go back, due to such high temperatures. -Makes sense. Less 'matter' in the universe means less laws to govern things.
Charles Phipps 03-10-08, 11:21 PM	Now, seriously. Where are you going with Einstein and this? I'm utterly confused. I don't intend to "go" anywhere with it. I said that Einstein's emotional response of the universe being an orderly place was ultimately proven correct....by quantum physics (which has, I'm well aware, shredded Einstein) And no, I don't want to discuss it and yes, I understand what quantum physics is. Why should a mortal worship such a petty creature? They obviously thought wrong because Ao had to put the fear of a real god into them to get them to do their jobs. I'll throw out the reverse, why the :censored: would anyone worship a god that's not human? Humans are flawed, petty, and emotional creatures. I'm fairly sure that the promise of judgement from an exemplar or alien being terrifies a lot of people far more than being judged by a flawed being with the same motivations as a mortal.
Todesherr 03-10-08, 11:24 PM	That only proves my point that most of the Realms gods were little more than super powerful spoiled brats who needed to be taught a lesson by Ao. Not Torm..:)
Soltares 03-11-08, 04:05 AM	Why should a mortal worship such a petty creature? They obviously thought wrong because Ao had to put the fear of a real god into them to get them to do their jobs. Well, gosh, I could worship Talos, have access to healing magics if my ox-cart ever falls over and snaps my leg like a twig, and, better yet, perhaps be able to pay the local priest to call down thunder and lightning and strong winds to ruin my rivals crops! With sufficient dedication and training and if I drink my holy water and exercise every day, I might even learn to heal wounds, or smite people who **** me off (I have a list somewhere of people who desperately need smiting!) or do all sorts of awesome things, like call down the storm, or send it away! Or I could worship Ao and get shiny bupkiss for it, but the warm fuzzy notion that my god, who may or may not exist, is bigger than the neighbor's god, even if the neighbor's god has priests able to do all sorts of awesome stuff and Tom's crops are twice as productive as mine and he got his son cured when the Ague came through and mine coughed up his lungs and died, 'cause Ao doesn't do anything for me.
Todesherr 03-11-08, 09:46 AM	I'm utterly confused. I don't intend to "go" anywhere with it. I said that Einstein's emotional response of the universe being an orderly place was ultimately proven correct....by quantum physics (which has, I'm well aware, shredded Einstein) And no, I don't want to discuss it and yes, I understand what quantum physics is. I'll throw out the reverse, why the :censored: would anyone worship a god that's not human? Humans are flawed, petty, and emotional creatures. I'm fairly sure that the promise of judgement from an exemplar or alien being terrifies a lot of people far more than being judged by a flawed being with the same motivations as a mortal. Those who say they understand quantum physics, don't understand quantum physics.:D
Charles Phipps 03-11-08, 11:39 AM	Those who say they understand quantum physics, don't understand quantum physics.:D :rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-11-08, 11:50 AM	I already know what's Beyond the Universe. It's the Shopkeep.:) As for the question, "What is love?" I found a great video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHRRhUKaWes) that addresses that question.
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 11:54 AM	As for the question, "What is love?" I found a great video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHRRhUKaWes) that addresses that question. -What is Love!? This (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DIHRRhUKaWes).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 03-11-08, 12:19 PM	-What is Love!? This (http://forums.gleemax.com/leaving.php?destination=http://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DIHRRhUKaWes). One of the best videos ever. :rofl:
Kenzuki 03-11-08, 04:49 PM	In light of all of this talk of deity selfishness, I shall become the first Missionary of the Holy Light to Toril. Cross over children, cross over into the Light!
Charles Phipps 03-11-08, 04:50 PM	I suggest we all follow the ways of Hextor. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/war_drums_gallery/Aspect_of_Hextor.jpg Remember, there's nothing so beautiful as a boot stamped in a peasant's face.
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 05:01 PM	-Eh, forget both of them. There's me to worship. :ayyyy!:
Charles Phipps 03-11-08, 05:07 PM	Do YOU have Six Arms? I think not.
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 05:09 PM	Do YOU have Six Arms? I think not. -I have fifteen hands. Logic dictates that that means I have fifteen arms.
Kenzuki 03-11-08, 05:19 PM	I suggest we all follow the ways of Hextor. http://www.wizards.com/dnd/images/war_drums_gallery/Aspect_of_Hextor.jpg Remember, there's nothing so beautiful as a boot stamped in a peasant's face. Bane would eat Hextor's face.
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 05:33 PM	Bane would eat Hextor's face. -I think he did...Isn't Hexor gone from the 'Core' Pantheon, but Bane is in?
Kenzuki 03-11-08, 05:34 PM	-I think he did...Isn't Hexor gone from the 'Core' Pantheon, but Bane is in? Indeed.
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 05:36 PM	-So, there you go. Bane ate Hexor's proverbial face.
Charles Phipps 03-11-08, 05:39 PM	That's assuming that Bane doesn't absorb Garagos. :-) I'm all for Bane and Torm being secretly brothers!
Lord Karsus 03-11-08, 05:50 PM	I'm all for Bane and Torm being secretly brothers! -Eh, that's too cliche. It could be, though, as their timelines seem to line up, and everything.
SmartPaladin 03-11-08, 05:58 PM	Ya know, all of this talk about religion reminds me about what this one guy said religions wars were like... A bunch of school kinds going "My imaginary friend is better then your imaginary friend!" I'll still stick with Hoar, thank you all very much. At least he has a pretty good sense of humor. He is the deity of Poetic Justice after all. :P
Charles Phipps 03-11-08, 06:03 PM	Ya know, all of this call about religion reminds me about what this one guy said religions wars were like... A bunch of school kinds going "My imaginary friend is better then your imaginary friend!" My rebuttal to that statement was "As opposed to all the perfectly non-schoolyard reasons people go to war."
SmartPaladin 03-11-08, 06:07 PM	My rebuttal to that statement was "As opposed to all the perfectly non-schoolyard reasons people go to war." Name five. Wars, in and of them selves are stupid wastes of life.
Charles Phipps 03-11-08, 06:26 PM	The art of sarcasm is lost on you, it would seem.
SmartPaladin 03-11-08, 06:32 PM	The art of sarcasm is lost on you, it would seem. Only on the internet, but I thought you'd have learn that by now. Seriously, unless I know you really well, as in like friends and/or family, sarcasm over the internet is hard to see. We'd have better luck trying to teach a deaf person what their name sounds like... Well, not really. Again, depending on how well you know someone, you know when their being serious, or sarcastic. A deaf person, just has the vibrations to work off of when it comes to how their name "sounds".
Kenzuki 03-11-08, 06:39 PM	The art of sarcasm is lost on you, it would seem. Sarcasm is an art now?
SmartPaladin 03-11-08, 06:47 PM	Sarcasm is an art now? I'd call it an "art form" myself. Right up there with Glaring... My Sister used to show off her skill in Glaring to me all the time. She learned from me Mother, who practiced on... Umm... Probably her brothers, my Uncles, and then there's my girlfriend... Who's been known to show off her skill. So, yeah... Sarcasm and Glaring, two new forms of art. :P
Draco Spirit 03-11-08, 08:59 PM	Anyway, gods I like to see.. Velsaroon, the back story on this guy absolutely rocks and I say he's a big favorites with people who like evil characters, I don't care if he got thrown in the astral sea.. I want him back Sune.. because doing it all for love never gets old... Red knight kind of fun too, nice to play a nice taticaly minded character once in a while. Ilmatar always fun, because of his forgiving aspect. Yondalla, proving LG can be more than shiny knights :D
Lord Karsus 03-12-08, 09:21 AM	Anyway, gods I like to see.. Velsaroon, the back story on this guy absolutely rocks and I say he's a big favorites with people who like evil characters, I don't care if he got thrown in the astral sea.. I want him back Sune.. because doing it all for love never gets old... Red knight kind of fun too, nice to play a nice taticaly minded character once in a while. Ilmatar always fun, because of his forgiving aspect. Yondalla, proving LG can be more than shiny knights :D -Of those, only Sune and Ilmater are probably going to "make the transition". Velsharoon is likely going to be an exarch, of perhaps Shar. Red Knight is likely to be an exarch of Tempus. Yondella is likely to merge with some other deity, as the 'Halfling Aspect' of them.