| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| BrennonGoldeye02-17-07, 10:56 PM | OK, I have some good ideas about what miffs folk about Midnight. Now how about Mystra? Ya know, the Being responsible for all of the presently active Chosen. C'mon folk, I know some of you have been drooling to go off about Her. I doubt you have any vengence to worry about unless you deal with vestiges.;) Phrase it calmly and succinctly. Once again, all posts will be respected, if not agreed with. Please signature quote, even you old farts that normally don't. It's not only a sign of respect, but wisdom.;) |
| Karsus the Mad02-18-07, 12:04 AM | That she was originally a mindless, drooling farm girl who gained divinity not because of ability, or dedication, or cosmic decree, but by sheer accident, is largely my problem. She was an accident that noone had insurance for. Also, she got the divinity and not me:P Other than that, I like her far more than Midnight, but far less than Mystryl. |
| Soltares02-18-07, 02:00 AM | Given the nature of her portfolio (can deny all of the other gods access to their powers? Yikes), I think I'd rather not have a terribly clever person getting that job... She's dangerous enough as it is. I never cared for the Chosen, and pretty much ignored them entirely. In my campaign, Elminster was an 8th level Divination-specialist with maxed out knowledge skills, and his houseboy was a 1st level Monk (whom the players started calling Wong, and I promptly made Shou to fit the running gag), not the Chosen centuries old ex-Prince uber-archmage sleeping with the goddess of magic with a king-in-exile washing his underwear. The Simbul was a mysterious 'witch,' who was secretely the fourth woman to bear that title, and currently young and not-equal-to-the-task left her by her more powerful mother. On the job training sucks when Thay is your cranky neighbor... I vaguely recall from the 'old days' that the Chosen premise was that the portfolio of magic / nature of the Weave was *too big* for even Mystra to contain in full, and she had to diversify her power around a bit. But the 'new truthiness' is that many gods have Chosen, including some that are pretty wimpy, so apparently that was a load of horse-pucky and has been retconned away. I do love the setting, particularly it's inclusive nature (somewhere in the realms, I can find almost anything I want, whether it be asian-themed societies, egyptians, genie-commanding wizards, snake cults, undead dragons, sea elven cities, evil magocracies or gun-toting gnomes). But gods-empowered 30th+ level NPC ubermages just don't have any practical use in the games I run. If I'm running a Runaways game, I don't need the freaking Heralds of Galactus showing up. As Ed himself has said, if you don't like 'em, don't use 'em. |
| Stigger02-19-07, 04:56 AM | My biggest complaint is that she went retarded again it seems and got herself killed... was a bizarre little plot twist that didn't need to happen in my book. So... guess it would be that she's dead and not in charge anymore. :D |
| Lord Karsus02-19-07, 11:21 AM | -Are we going to see a 'Problem with Mystryl' thread in the future? I don't particularly like her... |
| JRBlasingame02-19-07, 05:16 PM | Where do ppl get all these nifty little tid bits of information? Mystra originally a mindless drooling shell, accidently getthing Mystral's power?? where is this from? Not doubting, just very curious. |
| Karsus the Mad02-19-07, 05:22 PM | Where do ppl get all these nifty little tid bits of information? Mystra originally a mindless drooling shell, accidently getthing Mystral's power?? where is this from? Not doubting, just very curious. From Ed actually:) April 17, 2006: Hi again, fellow scribes. Ed replies to this, from Taelohn: “... While Midnight's ascension to become (the second) Mystra is well documented, most mentions of the death of Mystryl say that she was "reborn" or "reincarnated" as (the first) Mystra. I suppose I always just assumed that Mystra sort of "sprung into existence" as a new deity. Does this instead imply that Mystryl bestowed her powers onto a mortal woman, just as she sacrificed herself? Perhaps someone she had vested powers in (like a Chosen)? If so, who was (the first) Mystra in her mortal life?” Ed speaks: Taelohn, Rory Weston is quite correct; most of the gods of the Realms were indeed “at one time mortal & "ascended" to the position.” And yes, “forgotten” gods dwindle to demigod status, and can in some cases be eliminated (killed, AND their worship wrested away/portfolios subsumed by other deities) by mortals or by other deities. In the case of Mystryl, she sacrificed herself, not foreseeing that she’d be reborn. She had no Chosen or preselected mortal vessel, and did not know or intend that she’d “live on.” She simply did what she believed she had to do, to end a threat to the world she loved. However, the circumstances of her passing prevented other deities from snaring her divine power, and largely prevented its dispersal, and it “fell like a dying star” to earth (or so the priests of Mystra say) to at random strike and “go into” a mindless, drooling mortal woman and infuse her with Mystryl’s divinity, so that she became Mystra. (Of course, clergy of Mystra speak of the woman being present and selected as “divine fate” and not random at all, but this is one of the Holy Mysteries of the Lady of Mysteries that only high-ranking clergy are allowed to discuss in detail; lay worshippers and non-believers won’t get much more out of a priest of Mystra than this: “When Mystryl made the ultimate and most holy sacrifice that defended Toril itself, that which was best of her fell to earth, and struck a mortal woman, and went into her, and Mystryl was reborn as Mystra, as she was fated to do, that we may all have magic that serves us and not the howling chaos of wild magic spellstorms.” We don’t know anything about the mortal woman who became Mystra other than these things: she was young, she was “mindless” (for reasons unknown; it may have been a birth defect or a later affliction), she was a poor rural unknown somewhere in the northern, western Heartlands being cared for by kin, and she was changed in looks and stature by Mystryl’s “going in” to her. I’d say more, but NDAs forbid. So saith Ed, Creator of All (The Realms). love to all, THO EDIT: Just noticed. The underline answers the question of another thread: whether or not Mystryl had Chosen. |
| Lord Karsus02-19-07, 05:44 PM | EDIT: Just noticed. The underline answers the question of another thread: whether or not Mystryl had Chosen. -Eh, yes and no. While I don't believe Mystryl had any Chosen either, it could have just been that she had no Chosen at the time. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-20-07, 01:08 AM | My beef, Mystra sucks!!! The Chosen, sucks!!! Having to divide up her power bull crap. Look at it from a game point of view. A 12th level Cleric has more power than Silverfire. It does 4d12 and has a few small other abilities. Ok take this and divide it up among 7 Chosen and this little tidbit of magic is supposed to make the difference between Mystra becoming uber?? Yeah other gods have chosen. Look at Cadderly he is the Chosen of Denier and stronger than any of Mystra's chosen. Bane has his Chosen. Gilgeam has his, well the chosen is still around but not Gilgeam. The excuse about Mystra having too much power and having to give it to her chosen is so stupid it's infuriating. Silverfire is not powerful. Spellfire is a hell of a lot more powerful than Silverfire. If the excuse of power is going to be used, then the Chosen need to be demi-gods with certain aspects of magic divided up amongst them. |
| Zevox02-20-07, 02:54 AM | I vaguely recall from the 'old days' that the Chosen premise was that the portfolio of magic / nature of the Weave was *too big* for even Mystra to contain in full, and she had to diversify her power around a bit. But the 'new truthiness' is that many gods have Chosen, including some that are pretty wimpy, so apparently that was a load of horse-pucky and has been retconned away. Actually, thats still true. The Chosen of other Gods are different from Mystra's Chosen in that Mystra actually gives a piece of her divine power to hers, for the reasons you mentioned, whereas the other Gods just give theirs a few special abilities. As one of the folks around here (Old Sage I think) keeps saying, it may be more accurate to think of them as Champions of their Deity rather than Chosen if the term gets them confused with Mystra's Chosen. My beef, Mystra sucks!!! The Chosen, sucks!!! Having to divide up her power bull crap. Look at it from a game point of view. A 12th level Cleric has more power than Silverfire. It does 4d12 and has a few small other abilities. Ok take this and divide it up among 7 Chosen and this little tidbit of magic is supposed to make the difference between Mystra becoming uber?? Yeah other gods have chosen. Look at Cadderly he is the Chosen of Denier and stronger than any of Mystra's chosen. Bane has his Chosen. Gilgeam has his, well the chosen is still around but not Gilgeam. The excuse about Mystra having too much power and having to give it to her chosen is so stupid it's infuriating. Silverfire is not powerful. Spellfire is a hell of a lot more powerful than Silverfire. If the excuse of power is going to be used, then the Chosen need to be demi-gods with certain aspects of magic divided up amongst them. Theres 3 problems I see with this reasoning: 1) Silver Fire not being powerful based on game stats. The lore for the world is not dependent on the stats - Silver Fire is the raw form of magic, with many uses for those gifted with it that the game stats don't reflect. And even it is just one gift of Mystra's divine power given to the Chosen, not that power itself. 2) Unlike Mystra's Chosen, other Gods' Chosen do not receive a portion of their patron's divine power (see above). Plus Mystra has more than 7 Chosen - about double that number, actually - so yes, theres more than enough of them with shards of her power to weaken her. 3) Cadderly isn't more powerful than Mystra's Chosen - hes 20th level Cleric. Nearly all of Mystra's Chosen are beyond him, some by more than 10 levels. And as the lore goes, they'd be even further due to their vastly greater experience and age, and possessing a shard of Mystra's divine power as opposed to Cadderly merely having special abilities granted to him by the Tome of Universal Harmony and the Song of Deneir. Just my take on that, Zevox |
| Lord Karsus02-20-07, 09:21 AM | -These are Mystra's current Chosen. Not that there have been others in the past: Elminster Aumar Storm Silverhand Laeral Silverhand Alustrial Silverhand The Simbul Sylune Silverhand Qilue Veladorn Dove Falconhand Noumea Drathchuld Alvaerele Tasundrym The Srinshee Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-21-07, 12:03 AM | 1) Silver Fire not being powerful based on game stats. The lore for the world is not dependent on the stats - Silver Fire is the raw form of magic, with many uses for those gifted with it that the game stats don't reflect. And even it is just one gift of Mystra's divine power given to the Chosen, not that power itself. 2) Unlike Mystra's Chosen, other Gods' Chosen do not receive a portion of their patron's divine power (see above). Plus Mystra has more than 7 Chosen - about double that number, actually - so yes, theres more than enough of them with shards of her power to weaken her. 3) Cadderly isn't more powerful than Mystra's Chosen - hes 20th level Cleric. Nearly all of Mystra's Chosen are beyond him, some by more than 10 levels. And as the lore goes, they'd be even further due to their vastly greater experience and age, and possessing a shard of Mystra's divine power as opposed to Cadderly merely having special abilities granted to him by the Tome of Universal Harmony and the Song of Deneir. Just my take on that, Zevox Dude Cadderly "is" more powerful than the chosen. he has access to any clerical spell at anytime. He doesn't need to prepare ahead of time. If you notice there are no 3.5 stats for Cadderly or his chosen status. Well the stats for Silverfire were made that way for a reason. In game statsistics Spellfire is far more powerful than Silverfire. I just think it's a stupid excuse about her power. Cheesy. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-21-07, 12:04 AM | -These are Mystra's current Chosen. Not that there have been others in the past: Elminster Aumar Storm Silverhand Laeral Silverhand Alustrial Silverhand The Simbul Sylune Silverhand Qilue Veladorn Dove Falconhand Noumea Drathchuld Alvaerele Tasundrym The Srinshee Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep Umm I honestly don't think that the Srinshee is a Chosen of Mystra. I could be wrong though. |
| Stigger02-21-07, 02:34 AM | Srinshee was last I checked... not even going to go into just how badly Silverfire was handled for 3e... the description and mechanics were so badly mangled from their detailing in Seven Sisters it wasn't even funny. |
| The Simbul02-21-07, 02:36 AM | My beef, Mystra sucks!!! The Chosen, sucks!!! :bored: Look at it from a game point of view. A 12th level Cleric has more power than Silverfire. It does 4d12 and has a few small other abilities.And your point is what? Silver Fire isnt the only ability granted to the Chosen, its one of 5 added special qualities that contributes to a total +4 challenge rating modifier. Any 12th level character is going to have "more power" than the added abilities of a +4 CR template.Ok take this and divide it up among 7 Chosen and this little tidbit of magic is supposed to make the difference between Mystra becoming uber??1) There are more than seven Chosen of Mystra. 2) The existence of the Chosen as a damper on Mystra's power is one of many theories, prevalent among NPC realms sages attempting to explain the existence of the Chosen, it is not an outright declared fact. 3) The powers granted by being a Chosen of any deity are blessings granted in exchange for that mortal doing some service for that deity. In the case of Mystra, that service is holding a portion of the power of the weave within them at her request. If we accept the theory that Mystra's divine power is divided up among mortals, than we can likewise assume that the actual divine power itself lay dormant within them, much as Elminster did not become a Demigod or Divine Proxy when he held the majority of Mystra's power during the Time of Troubles. Nor did the rest of the Chosen who also carried lesser amounts of her power during that time, in order to keep it safe. The special powers granted to the Chosen may be entirely separate from their task as untapped reservoirs of Mystra's power, as in those abilities may serve as rewards or protections for acting as those reservoirs.Look at Cadderly he is the Chosen of Denier and stronger than any of Mystra's chosen.Wow, did you actually read the statistics blocks, or did you just roll a d100 on a table of random nouns and adjectives in order to come up with that statement? Cadderly has a CR of 24, 150 hitpoints, an AC of 12, a Reflex save of +8, no ranks in Spot and Listen, and cannot quicken spells. He wont have the opportunity to cast a spell (spontaneous or otherwise) against a Chosen of Mystra, or any other equal CR opponent, since those opponents could incapacitate him in the surprise round of combat, and finish him off during the first normal round of the encounter. As for the aforementioned Song of Deneir (cast cleric spells spontaneously, as a full round action), it may be a convenient ability, but it is the only worthwhile ability he derives from his template. Moreover, his ability to use that power also is entirely dependent on his possession of a piece of equipment, namely the Tome of Universal Harmony, which as written has no defense against being disarmed, sundered, disintegrated, disjoined or subject to any other nasty effects wrought by an informed adversary. Cadderly has a 3.0 stat block, and any of the Chosen of Mystra who likewise had published 3.0 stat blocks can soundly defeat him under that D&D ruleset.The excuse about Mystra having too much power and having to give it to her chosen is so stupid it's infuriating. Almost as infuriatingly as statements like this:My beef, Mystra sucks!!! The Chosen, sucks!!! Silverfire is not powerful. Spellfire is a hell of a lot more powerful than Silverfire.Again, what is your point? Spellfire and Silver Fire are two variations of the exact same phenomenon, raw discharges of the energy of the Weave. Anything served by Mystra investing her power into chosen mortals is likewise served by allowing for the existence of spellfire in normal mortal populations. Spellfire in its standard form on page 56 of the FRCS is not more valueable from an ECL/CR standpoint than Silver Fire. Spellfire only becomes more powerful when you invest in class levels to enhance it. As for your claim that a bearer of Spellfire is greater than a bearer of Silver Fire, it is irrelevant. Elminster has the evasion class feature and saving throws well above any of the flat DCs of a Spellfire Channeler's special attacks. Spellfire will almost never touch him, and any spellcaster of his level has plenty of options to neutralize it outright. If the excuse of power is going to be used, then the Chosen need to be demi-gods with certain aspects of magic divided up amongst them.Nowhere in any published game rules source directly addressing the issue of Mystra's Chosen has it been unequivocally stated that the "need to divide up her power" was the sole precipitating event that caused the existence of the Chosen. It is one of multiple theories argued by sages in Faerun as to why Mystra has Chosen, and it is just that---a theory proposed by mortals, none of whom have the slightest insight into her aims or desires. There are many speculative reasons for the existence of the Chosen, but the fact of the matter is Mystra does not need a reason to justify their existence. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-21-07, 07:31 AM | giggle |
| Karsus the Mad02-21-07, 08:20 AM | Well said...;) |
| Lord Karsus02-21-07, 09:25 AM | If you notice there are no 3.5 stats for Cadderly or his chosen status. -There are full 3e stats for Cadderly on the WotC website. There are 3e stats for many of the Chosen of Mystra in various sourcebooks. Compare. Umm I honestly don't think that the Srinshee is a Chosen of Mystra. I could be wrong though. -Well, you are wrong then. Wow, did you actually read the statistics blocks, or did you just roll a d100 on a table of random nouns and adjectives in order to come up with that statement? :heehee -Looks like the Simbul's savage eldrich might has felled yet another foe. |
| Alediran02-21-07, 02:33 PM | -Looks like the Simbul's savage eldrich might has felled yet another foe. What foe? I've only saw a speck of dust being crushed when Simbul put her foot over it. Poor speck of dust, I knew him well :( |
| Lord Karsus02-21-07, 02:34 PM | What foe? I've only saw a speck of dust being crushed when Simbul put her foot over it. Poor speck of dust, I knew him well :( -Well, foe is a very flexible word... |
| Alediran02-21-07, 02:38 PM | -Well, foe is a very flexible word... If you spell foe backwards (EOF),you got the <insert word in english for things like F.B.I.> for end of file. I wouldn't even consider somebody a foe if it falls in two or less rounds. A puny foe if it manages to hold three rounds from my mighty spells. |
| Stigger02-21-07, 03:32 PM | Been a lot of that happening lately... well, just in general, not from anyone in particular. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-21-07, 03:42 PM | Ok, ok. While I am more than willing to allow "My beef, Mystra sucks!!! The Chosen, sucks!!!" to be ground flat(that's gotta hurt his beef, no matter who's enjoying it), let's be nice otherwise. Respected if not agreed with, remember? P.S- Is the action of pwning a good or bad thing? |
| Stigger02-21-07, 04:06 PM | Depends on how antagonistic the pwn was, and how antagonistic the cause of the pwning was. Had he come in with a 'Well, I don't care for Mystra, for reasons x and y, blah, blah, blah...' the pwning would have been a very bad thing and completely uncalled for. As it stands, the whole 'Mystra Sucks...' approach was kinda asking for it around here. So... yeah, depends. |
| Alediran02-21-07, 04:21 PM | Depends on how antagonistic the pwn was, and how antagonistic the cause of the pwning was. Had he come in with a 'Well, I don't care for Mystra, for reasons x and y, blah, blah, blah...' the pwning would have been a very bad thing and completely uncalled for. As it stands, the whole 'Mystra Sucks...' approach was kinda asking for it around here. So... yeah, depends. Everything is in the eyes of the Beholders. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-21-07, 04:37 PM | Everything is in the eyes of the Beholders. Just don't look directly into their eyes, it can really sting.:cool: |
| Lord Karsus02-21-07, 04:38 PM | P.S- Is the action of pwning a good or bad thing? -Well, that depends on if you are the one doing the pwning, or if you being pwned yourself. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pwn |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-22-07, 01:07 AM | :bored: And your point is what? Silver Fire isnt the only ability granted to the Chosen, its one of 5 added special qualities that contributes to a total +4 challenge rating modifier. Any 12th level character is going to have "more power" than the added abilities of a +4 CR template.1) There are more than seven Chosen of Mystra. 2) The existence of the Chosen as a damper on Mystra's power is one of many theories, prevalent among NPC realms sages attempting to explain the existence of the Chosen, it is not an outright declared fact. 3) The powers granted by being a Chosen of any deity are blessings granted in exchange for that mortal doing some service for that deity. In the case of Mystra, that service is holding a portion of the power of the weave within them at her request. If we accept the theory that Mystra's divine power is divided up among mortals, than we can likewise assume that the actual divine power itself lay dormant within them, much as Elminster did not become a Demigod or Divine Proxy when he held the majority of Mystra's power during the Time of Troubles. Nor did the rest of the Chosen who also carried lesser amounts of her power during that time, in order to keep it safe. The special powers granted to the Chosen may be entirely separate from their task as untapped reservoirs of Mystra's power, as in those abilities may serve as rewards or protections for acting as those reservoirs.Wow, did you actually read the statistics blocks, or did you just roll a d100 on a table of random nouns and adjectives in order to come up with that statement? Cadderly has a CR of 24, 150 hitpoints, an AC of 12, a Reflex save of +8, no ranks in Spot and Listen, and cannot quicken spells. He wont have the opportunity to cast a spell (spontaneous or otherwise) against a Chosen of Mystra, or any other equal CR opponent, since those opponents could incapacitate him in the surprise round of combat, and finish him off during the first normal round of the encounter. As for the aforementioned Song of Deneir (cast cleric spells spontaneously, as a full round action), it may be a convenient ability, but it is the only worthwhile ability he derives from his template. Moreover, his ability to use that power also is entirely dependent on his possession of a piece of equipment, namely the Tome of Universal Harmony, which as written has no defense against being disarmed, sundered, disintegrated, disjoined or subject to any other nasty effects wrought by an informed adversary. Cadderly has a 3.0 stat block, and any of the Chosen of Mystra who likewise had published 3.0 stat blocks can soundly defeat him under that D&D ruleset.Almost as infuriatingly as statements like this: Again, what is your point? Spellfire and Silver Fire are two variations of the exact same phenomenon, raw discharges of the energy of the Weave. Anything served by Mystra investing her power into chosen mortals is likewise served by allowing for the existence of spellfire in normal mortal populations. Spellfire in its standard form on page 56 of the FRCS is not more valueable from an ECL/CR standpoint than Silver Fire. Spellfire only becomes more powerful when you invest in class levels to enhance it. As for your claim that a bearer of Spellfire is greater than a bearer of Silver Fire, it is irrelevant. Elminster has the evasion class feature and saving throws well above any of the flat DCs of a Spellfire Channeler's special attacks. Spellfire will almost never touch him, and any spellcaster of his level has plenty of options to neutralize it outright. Nowhere in any published game rules source directly addressing the issue of Mystra's Chosen has it been unequivocally stated that the "need to divide up her power" was the sole precipitating event that caused the existence of the Chosen. It is one of multiple theories argued by sages in Faerun as to why Mystra has Chosen, and it is just that---a theory proposed by mortals, none of whom have the slightest insight into her aims or desires. There are many speculative reasons for the existence of the Chosen, but the fact of the matter is Mystra does not need a reason to justify their existence. Man you make me laugh. First off, you must not have ever played a cleric before because a cleric with access to every spell known at that instant is a hell of a lot more powerful than anything the Chosen have. There are many many many spells that clerics can cast that can render arcane magic users down to worthlessness just because you may not be able to play a cleric very well doesn't mean that other can't. I don't remember your word being the final say so on all matters, your response is just another opinion along with the many opinions of the rest of us. I know exactly what the Chosen of Mystra template grants them. Silverfire can easily be dodged and it only does max damage of like 48 points big whoop. And listen carefully. We are not in character here this is real life discussion. The sages of the realms don't have a say so here. Lets go by game statistics. |
| Karsus the Mad02-22-07, 01:18 AM | I think I hear...yep... :hides: |
| Stigger02-22-07, 01:39 AM | Just to point out a little detail, why exactly would some death-match between Cadderly and the Chosen ever occur in the first place? More likely, they'd be allied in some conflict... so it's something of a moot point to begin with. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-22-07, 07:35 AM | Man you make me laugh. First off, you must not have ever played a cleric before because a cleric with access to every spell known at that instant is a hell of a lot more powerful than anything the Chosen have. There are many many many spells that clerics can cast that can render arcane magic users down to worthlessness just because you may not be able to play a cleric very well doesn't mean that other can't. I don't remember your word being the final say so on all matters, your response is just another opinion along with the many opinions of the rest of us. I know exactly what the Chosen of Mystra template grants them. Silverfire can easily be dodged and it only does max damage of like 48 points big whoop. And listen carefully. We are not in character here this is real life discussion. The sages of the realms don't have a say so here. Lets go by game statistics. Whoa there sparky. Let's look at this for a sec. You wanna go by game statistics, then go by them. The Simbul did. You have yet to type anything gamebased except for 4d12 being insufficient. I see you quoted it but did you read it? Cadderly has a CR of 24, 150 hitpoints, an AC of 12, a Reflex save of +8, no ranks in Spot and Listen, and cannot quicken spells. He wont have the opportunity to cast a spell (spontaneous or otherwise) against a Chosen of Mystra, or any other equal CR opponent, since those opponents could incapacitate him in the surprise round of combat, and finish him off during the first normal round of the encounter. As for the aforementioned Song of Deneir (cast cleric spells spontaneously, as a full round action), it may be a convenient ability, but it is the only worthwhile ability he derives from his template. Moreover, his ability to use that power also is entirely dependent on his possession of a piece of equipment, namely the Tome of Universal Harmony, which as written has no defense against being disarmed, sundered, disintegrated, disjoined or subject to any other nasty effects wrought by an informed adversary. Cmon now Xun. Lets go back to the fun part that lacked all the bleeding.;) |
| 42102-22-07, 07:39 AM | The sages of the realms don't have a say so here. Lets go by game statistics. Dude, if you don't care about FR Lore why didn't you post this in the DnD Community Forum ? |
| Alediran02-22-07, 10:51 AM | Xun, a Wizard can develop a spell that renders clerics completely useless. You forgett that wizards, while not necesarily having all spells, can research spells for very specific uses, and a spellcaster with the experience of the Chosen can have very weird spells (just look at the line of Symbul's Spellmatrix). And even if cleric have access to the whole level of spells doesn't mean that they are always prepared to counter a Wizard's spell. Cadderly's ability to cast every spell from the cleric list has that troublesome Full Round Action (and in the middle of a fight is too much time devoted to one single thing, not counting that the spell enters in effect the next round, not the current) attached to it, with no way to cancel it, while any wizard with the quicken spell feat, or spells that are already swift, can cast two spells in the time that cadderly can cast one. |
| GothicDan02-22-07, 10:56 AM | Xun, you are by far the most offensive, ignorant, smallminded, trollish, and dense poster I have ever seen on these boards. I'll be taking my warning now, WotC mods. It was worth it. |
| Alediran02-22-07, 11:12 AM | Xun, you are by far the most offensive, ignorant, smallminded, trollish, and dense poster I have ever seen on these boards. I'll be taking my warning now, WotC mods. It was worth it. Don't worry, we all think the same. And Xun should be banned, because trolling is against the CoC IIRC. |
| Karsus the Mad02-22-07, 11:24 AM | Never. I need my entertainment afterall. But yeah, Xun, read what the Simbul posted. It's pretty concrete. If you can find a similar method that counters it, I'll give you my:OMG! expression and a :cookie: |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-22-07, 12:52 PM | Xun, you are by far the most offensive, ignorant, smallminded, trollish, and dense poster I have ever seen on these boards. I'll be taking my warning now, WotC mods. It was worth it. Oh yeah you got me there Danny boy. Man that really stung. Seriously there is nobody trolling here. If I don't agree with an opinion I have the full right to disagree. If you don't like it then don't come to the threads. Simple. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-22-07, 01:02 PM | Just to point out a little detail, why exactly would some death-match between Cadderly and the Chosen ever occur in the first place? More likely, they'd be allied in some conflict... so it's something of a moot point to begin with. Thats not the point. The point is what if. The simple thing is if Cadderly is played right using strategy then yes he can defeat the chosen. Some people say well he can't, maybe they don't know of a way, or the idea of certain spell combinations to do certain things. It's all strategy. If some of you don't understand by now that CR a good bit of the time doesn't mean anything, then you must not have been playing for long. I've seen a CR5 take down a CR10, it depends on who and how the character is played, along with the roll of the die. My beef is, unless you know that all options have been used to no affect then there is always a chance. Someone mentioned the spell knowledge of the Chosen, ok Cadderly has plenty of spell knowledge. He read the Tome of universal Harmony for god sakes. If you truly know what this tome represents then you will understand how special Cadderly is. It goes the same with Fzoul Chembryl, if he is played by an experienced player he could take down a Chosen. Again his CR isn't as high, but it's all about strategy. That is one of the main things you learn when you play D&D that most of the time the players are the under dogs and they come out on top with the odds stacked against them. That is what develops good role-players. |
| Lord Karsus02-22-07, 01:08 PM | First off, you must not have ever played a cleric before because a cleric with access to every spell known at that instant is a hell of a lot more powerful than anything the Chosen have. -Well, firstly, a Cleric has access to whatever spells his/her patron allows them access to. If Denier feels that Cadderly does not deserve any spells that begin with the letter 'A', then Cadderly is not going to recieve the ability to cast spells starting with the letter 'A'. Secondly, Chosen is not a class. Chosen is a template. Some Chosen of Mystra are wizards (Elminster, Khelben). Some Chosen of Mystra sorcerers (The Simbul). Some Chosen of Mystra are rangers (Storm Silverhand). Some are Clerics (Qilue Veladorn). There are many many many spells that clerics can cast that can render arcane magic users down to worthlessness just because you may not be able to play a cleric very well doesn't mean that other can't. -The personal attack on the Simbul not withstanding, sorcerers/wizards have a much broader spell repertoire than clerics. That is fact, not opinion or conjecture. I don't remember your word being the final say so on all matters, your response is just another opinion along with the many opinions of the rest of us. -The Simbul backs up her facts with solid facts, however, unlike many other opinions. An opinion that is back up with factual evidence is a stronger argument than one that is based on conjecture and here say. I know exactly what the Chosen of Mystra template grants them. Silverfire can easily be dodged and it only does max damage of like 48 points big whoop. -Apparently, you don't. If you did, your argument pointing out that Clerics can render the powers of the arcane Chosen of Mystra would be moot, since you should know that Silver Fire can also repair dead magic zones, and dispel anti-magic zones. And listen carefully. We are not in character here this is real life discussion. The sages of the realms don't have a say so here. Lets go by game statistics. -Game statistics change. Realmslore does not. Therefore, Realmslore trumps game statistics. Oh yeah you got me there Danny boy. Man that really stung. Seriously there is nobody trolling here. If I don't agree with an opinion I have the full right to disagree. If you don't like it then don't come to the threads. Simple. -Trolling is making a response that is intended to inflame someone else. The term is also known as flaming. I'll quote you here: "...just because you may not be able to play a cleric very well doesn't mean that other can't". This is clearly Trolling/Flaming The Simbul. That statement serves no other purpose but to provoke a reaction by her. You might not think so, but the general consensus of the boards agrees. |
| MaskedOne02-22-07, 01:17 PM | The problem with saying that an experienced player can find a way to have Cadderly defeat one of the Chosen is that an equally experienced GM can come up with about 5 strategies for any of more focused spellcaster Chosen to smash Cadderly before he knows how much danger he's in. The capacity to create and execute a strategy to eliminate a person does not make the would-be killer more powerful than the target. |
| Boda02-22-07, 01:18 PM | Chosen are tough. Chosen of mystra are even more tough. I guess being chosen of a greater deity outpowers a chosen of a less powerful patron. Still it doesnt make sense that the same stat(+4) be given to templates so different and obviously unbalanced. The second holder of office had a stupid death, much like the first( maybe it's a Ao thing, that all deities of magic get themselves killed?!). Despite this, mystra and mystryl did alot better then midnight. But, the little girl still has time to change. Personally, mystra in itself doesnt botter me, but some issues around her certanaly do; so many chosen?, ubermystra?, those stats in FaP? But it's not her fault, like it's not Drizzts fault their fancrowd is somewhat insane. Heard it's a effect of magic exposure. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-22-07, 01:22 PM | -Well, firstly, a Cleric has access to whatever spells his/her patron allows them access to. If Denier feels that Cadderly does not deserve any spells that begin with the letter 'A', then Cadderly is not going to recieve the ability to cast spells starting with the letter 'A'. Secondly, Chosen is not a class. Chosen is a template. Some Chosen of Mystra are wizards (Elminster, Khelben). Some Chosen of Mystra sorcerers (The Simbul). Some Chosen of Mystra are rangers (Storm Silverhand). Some are Clerics (Qilue Veladorn). I know that about the Chosen. But last time I checked Cadderly has access to any cleric spell except of course Evil spells and spells that oppose his alignment. [/QUOTE]-The personal attack on the Simbul not withstanding, sorcerers/wizards have a much broader spell repertoire than clerics. That is fact, not opinion or conjecture.[/QUOTE] It doesn't matter how broad your spell list is. With Wizards it's preparing ahead of time also with standard Clerics. With Sorcerers it's what spells you have known simple. [/QUOTE]-The Simbul backs up her facts with solid facts, however, unlike many other opinions. An opinion that is back up with factual evidence is a stronger argument than one that is based on conjecture and here say.[/QUOTE] I know stats once again you don't read. But the Simbul has yet to show me anything that says the Chosen can kill Cadderly. that is an example. [/QUOTE]-Apparently, you don't. If you did, your argument pointing out that Clerics can render the powers of the arcane Chosen of Mystra would be moot, since you should know that Silver Fire can also repair dead magic zones, and dispel anti-magic zones.[/QUOTE] I know the exact powers of the Chosen and Silverfire. Silverfire gives you a reflex save for half it doesn't always hit. Clerics do have spells that can halt arcane spells. i said nothing about blocking Silverfire. [/QUOTE]-Game statistics change. Realmslore does not. Therefore, Realmslore trumps game statistics.[/QUOTE] Not always. [/QUOTE]-Trolling is making a response that is intended to inflame someone else. The term is also known as flaming. I'll quote you here: "...just because you may not be able to play a cleric very well doesn't mean that other can't". This is clearly Trolling/Flaming The Simbul. That statement serves no other purpose but to provoke a reaction by her. You might not think so, but the general consensus of the boards agrees.[/QUOTE] Yeah and telling me that i don't know what I am talking about this that and the other. Thats trolling also. And that statement is not trolling that is a fact. She was implying just because she says a cleric can't defeat this person then thats how it is. No no no it doesn't work like that. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-22-07, 01:50 PM | The problem with saying that an experienced player can find a way to have Cadderly defeat one of the Chosen is that an equally experienced GM can come up with about 5 strategies for any of more focused spellcaster Chosen to smash Cadderly before he knows how much danger he's in. The capacity to create and execute a strategy to eliminate a person does not make the would-be killer more powerful than the target. This is what you don't understand. And a clever player can come up with about 5 strategies that Cadderly can come up with to smash the Chosen before they know what is happening. The Chosen of Mystra don't know everything thats going on. Elminster doesn't always have just the right spell. In a novel anything can go either way. But when you are talking about game statistics. Take Elminsters player into the other room have him pick his spells and ready himself, same with Cadderly's player. Then bring them back into the room and roll the die and begin. If you take away some of the levels in the classes that the chosen have but don't have hardly any levels in then it makes a big difference. Yeah the Simbul may have 20 level in Sorcerer 10 in Wizard and 2 in archmage, but when it comes down to spellcasting her caster level is only 22. Elminster's is like 25 I think. Take Elminster except for the saves, hit points and evasion from rogue his other classes really won't make a difference in a spell battle. Haven't you ever read a book with a battle in it either spell or melee and you say to yourself "Well I would have done this different or cast this spell instead of that spell"? That lightning bolt didn't do anything, well lets reverse it and use a fireball instead, the out come may prove to be different. It boils down to the player and the roll of the dice. |
| Lord Karsus02-22-07, 01:55 PM | I know that about the Chosen. But last time I checked Cadderly has access to any cleric spell except of course Evil spells and spells that oppose his alignment. -No, Cadderly has access to whatever spells Denier sees fit to bestow upon him. As I said before, if Denier feels like Cadderly should not be able to cast spells starting with the letter 'A', then Cadderly cannot cast such spells. An arcane spellcaster, on the other hand, is only limited to whatever spells are in his/her spellbook, or the spellbook of others, from whom they borrow the spellbook from. It doesn't matter how broad your spell list is. With Wizards it's preparing ahead of time also with standard Clerics. With Sorcerers it's what spells you have known simple. -This is what you said: "There are many many many spells that clerics can cast that can render arcane magic users down to worthlessness just because you may not be able to play a cleric very well doesn't mean that other can't". My response was that sorcerers/wizards have a broader selection of spells. And, they can also research their own spells. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-22-07, 02:03 PM | -No, Cadderly has access to whatever spells Denier sees fit to bestow upon him. As I said before, if Denier feels like Cadderly should not be able to cast spells starting with the letter 'A', then Cadderly cannot cast such spells. An arcane spellcaster, on the other hand, is only limited to whatever spells are in his/her spellbook, or the spellbook of others, from whom they borrow the spellbook from. Please tell me where it states that. -This is what you said: "There are many many many spells that clerics can cast that can render arcane magic users down to worthlessness just because you may not be able to play a cleric very well doesn't mean that other can't". My response was that sorcerers/wizards have a broader selection of spells. And, they can also research their own spells. I know I said that and there are many spells that can render an arcane magic user worthless. A cleric can also research their own spells. |
| Lord Karsus02-22-07, 02:17 PM | Please tell me where it states that. -According to the Player's Handbook, Pg. 32, "Clerics do not aquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells. As demonstrated in The Erevis Cale Trilogy, and Shadowbred, a deity regulates what spells his/her priests and priestess' recieve. This is the reason why good Clerics cannot cast spells with the evil descriptor. They may pray for them, but the deity does not grant his/her Cleric to cast the spells in question. I know I said that and there are many spells that can render an arcane magic user worthless. A cleric can also research their own spells. -To which I responded that there are more spells an arcane spellcaster can utilize. That was the original point that was brought to light. Moving on...No, a priest or priestess' can request his/her deity for a new spell. His or her deity does not have to oblige, though, as I pointed out earlier. An arcane spellcaster does not have to worry about having their spells denied, however. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-22-07, 02:34 PM | -According to the Player's Handbook, Pg. 32, "Clerics do not aquire their spells from books or scrolls, nor do they prepare them through study. Instead, they meditate or pray for their spells. As demonstrated in The Erevis Cale Trilogy, and Shadowbred, a deity regulates what spells his/her priests and priestess' recieve. This is the reason why good Clerics cannot cast spells with the evil descriptor. They may pray for them, but the deity does not grant his/her Cleric to cast the spells in question. -To which I responded that there are more spells an arcane spellcaster can utilize. That was the original point that was brought to light. Moving on...No, a priest or priestess' can request his/her deity for a new spell. His or her deity does not have to oblige, though, as I pointed out earlier. An arcane spellcaster does not have to worry about having their spells denied, however. It all boils down to the DM if a cleric or a wizard/sorcerer can have a new spell. A priest can study and create a new spell. In the DMG nowhere does it say that a deity has to approve of the spell first. The DM approves the spell or disapproves, if he disapproves then he may use the deity excuse but he isn't limited to that. Priests not only pray, they do read tomes and srolls. A priest just doesn't pray and can suddenly cast spells without a hint of magical lore. Priests know how their magic works just like Wizards. |
| Lord Karsus02-22-07, 02:39 PM | A priest can study and create a new spell. Priests not only pray, they do read tomes and srolls. -I'll quote the Player's Handbook again. "Clerics do not aquire their spells from books or scrolls". Seems pretty straight forward enough. A priest just doesn't pray and can suddenly cast spells without a hint of magical lore. Priests know how their magic works just like Wizards. -They pray for their spells, and are eventually enlightened with the ability to do so. There is no doubt that they know what spells they have been granted- I never said that they wouldn't. But, should a deity not grant a particular spell to one of his/her priests or priestess', the priest or priestess' does not have access to that specific spell. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-22-07, 03:11 PM | -I'll quote the Player's Handbook again. "Clerics do not aquire their spells from books or scrolls". Seems pretty straight forward enough. -They pray for their spells, and are eventually enlightened with the ability to do so. There is no doubt that they know what spells they have been granted- I never said that they wouldn't. But, should a deity not grant a particular spell to one of his/her priests or priestess', the priest or priestess' does not have access to that specific spell. I know they don't cast them from books and scrolls but they do know spell scematics. I was read from the DMG under Creating New spells. You know Iyraclea? There are three epic spells that she herself created. As long as the spell meets all the requirements for the cleric he can create it. Your deity is not going to say no cause he or she just wants to be an ass about it, well your DM can but thats another story. A cleric must do research in order to create new spells just like Wizards, bards, Druids, Rangers, Assassins, Paladins, Blackguards etc... |
| Lord Karsus02-22-07, 03:32 PM | I know they don't cast them from books and scrolls but they do know spell scematics. I was read from the DMG under Creating New spells. -Notice, however, that it doesn't actually say that priests and priestess' would be able to cast said new spells. Again, it boils down to the fact that the divine entity granting the spells approves them or not. An Arcane spellcaster suffers no such restrictions. You know Iyraclea? There are three epic spells that she herself created. As long as the spell meets all the requirements for the cleric he can create it. -Epic Magic is not Divine Magic, however. Your deity is not going to say no cause he or she just wants to be an ass about it, well your DM can but thats another story. -A deity can, and deities have done such in the past. |
| Bonzai02-22-07, 04:07 PM | My problem with Mystra, isn't so much a problem with her persay, but the system of the weave. I don't like the fact that she can deny another god from answering their followers prayers, and giving their clerics spells. I also don't like the fact that she can strip other gods of their magic. If she was a little bit more insane, she could in theory cut off all the other dieties, lock them away in their own planes, and let them starve as they lose followers. Yeah, yeah, AO could come down and spank... But he won't if the other gods don't call him for help. And without the means to travel the planes or use magic, how will they manage to do that? I think that gods should be able to access all the powers of their domains, and have cart blanche access to their followers. As it is, she suffers from the superman syndrom, in that she can do anything. Now I am going to duck and cover, as I know Gothic Dan is going to be all over this. :D |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-22-07, 04:22 PM | -Epic Magic is not Divine Magic, however. Actually when a divine caster does cast epic spells it is considered Divine magic. |
| Stigger02-22-07, 04:22 PM | You know that saying a lot can happen in a minute... 6 seconds is a lot of time too really, particularly in a fight. So we have our friendly little priest casting off a spell that takes up that whole 6 seconds... facing a wizard who can cast off a spell every 3 seconds for at least 3-4 rounds lets say... while that priest is taking up 6 seconds to cast, the wizard has already launched off a quickened nuke and is preparing to counterspell that unfortunate priests spell... which would be kinda suicidal on that priests part, so he's just going to have to stick with whatever he prayed for that morning... presuming the priest is on the defensive... looks a bit different if the wizard is one the defensive, who's likely in the same crappy situation the priest was a minute ago.... Think he's saying there's a difference between Divine Magic and Epic Divine Magic. ;) |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-22-07, 04:34 PM | You know that saying a lot can happen in a minute... 6 seconds is a lot of time too really, particularly in a fight. So we have our friendly little priest casting off a spell that takes up that whole 6 seconds... facing a wizard who can cast off a spell every 3 seconds for at least 3-4 rounds lets say... while that priest is taking up 6 seconds to cast, the wizard has already launched off a quickened nuke and is preparing to counterspell that unfortunate priests spell... which would be kinda suicidal on that priests part, so he's just going to have to stick with whatever he prayed for that morning... presuming the priest is on the defensive... looks a bit different if the wizard is one the defensive, who's likely in the same crappy situation the priest was a minute ago.... Think he's saying there's a difference between Divine Magic and Epic Divine Magic. ;) See the thing with Cadderly is he doesn't have to prepare spells. He automatically knows all clerical spells. What cleric doesn't go into battle without being buffed? And unless a Wizard has quicken spell he is casting one per round also. And about the only way a Wizard will counterspell a cleric is with Dispel Magic. |
| Stigger02-22-07, 04:54 PM | But if he does use that tome ability thing, it takes a full round action to cast anything... a wizard is under no such limitation, and most likely won't use more than a standard action to cast. Leaves plenty of time to do little things that cleric just doesn't have time for. Improved counterspell would take away any difficulties that counterspelling would present, which as I recall offhand at least a couple of Chosen had. As to the cleric being buffed or not... presuming he's on the defensive it would probably arise from a surprise attack and unless he's running around buffed constantly, he's pretty much screwed. Same would probably be true of the wizard if he was on the defensive. 'Fair' fight scenario... well, that's more a matter of tactics... but just given the age and experience of the Chosen, there probably wasn't much Cadderly could do that would surprise them much and catch them off-guard. I'd be prone to saying the Chosen had the advantage, but it would largely depend on who made the big mistake first really, more than anything else. |
| Lord Karsus02-22-07, 04:56 PM | Actually when a divine caster does cast epic spells it is considered Divine magic. -Divine Magic is not Epic Divine Magic, and Epic Divine Magic is not Divine Magic. Nevermind...Stigger beat me to it. What cleric doesn't go into battle without being buffed? -One that has no reason to believe that combat is imminent, or one that does not have said protection spells ready to be cast. And about the only way a Wizard will counterspell a cleric is with Dispel Magic. -Or, tying back to the Silver Fire, by dispeling their spells via a Chosen of Mystra's Silver Fire. |
| MaskedOne02-22-07, 05:34 PM | This is what you don't understand. And a clever player can come up with about 5 strategies that Cadderly can come up with to smash the Chosen before they know what is happening. The Chosen of Mystra don't know everything thats going on. Elminster doesn't always have just the right spell. In a novel anything can go either way. But when you are talking about game statistics. Take Elminsters player into the other room have him pick his spells and ready himself, same with Cadderly's player. Then bring them back into the room and roll the die and begin. If you take away some of the levels in the classes that the chosen have but don't have hardly any levels in then it makes a big difference. Yeah the Simbul may have 20 level in Sorcerer 10 in Wizard and 2 in archmage, but when it comes down to spellcasting her caster level is only 22. Elminster's is like 25 I think. Take Elminster except for the saves, hit points and evasion from rogue his other classes really won't make a difference in a spell battle. Haven't you ever read a book with a battle in it either spell or melee and you say to yourself "Well I would have done this different or cast this spell instead of that spell"? That lightning bolt didn't do anything, well lets reverse it and use a fireball instead, the out come may prove to be different. It boils down to the player and the roll of the dice. You have failed to counter or even for that matter address the main point of the post you quoted. That being The capacity to create and execute a strategy to eliminate a person does not make the would-be killer more powerful than the target. You did in an odd sort of fashion actually manage to support my point with It boils down to the player and the roll of the dice. Other than that, why in the Abyss would I strip El of any of his levels or abilities if I'm going to put him through a mock duel against Cadderly. I mean sure if we want to be excessively fair for some psychotic reason I could make El an equivalent level to Cadderly. I could also remove Cadderly's little book. I'm not that nice though and I prefer a half-baked attempt to be accurate over no attempt so if you wish to pit the two against each other then El keeps all his tricks including Evasion and save alterations just as Cadderly keeps the Tome of Universal Harmony. |
| Terraneaux02-22-07, 05:50 PM | If casting a spell from the book is a full-round action, then cadderly is ok, as opposed to a 1-round casting time, in which case he is screwed. Cleric spells can do a lot of things. In 3.0/3.5 the cleric spell list is on par with the wizard/sorc. If someone really has access to all of the cleric spells and can cast them spontaneously, my money is on them as opposed to the wizard who has to prep spells. Really, if the cleric boosts their caster level enough with beads of karma/divine spell power/terran brandy and stuff like that, a well-timed Holy Word-type effect can take out an opposing wizard, no save. To those of you saying that a cleric can be denied spells by his god, an arcane caster can be denied spells by mystra. So when it comes down to Cadderly vs. a chosen they're all in the same boat. The problem with Mystra and her chosen is that too much of the FR story is written with them as the central characters, and added to their immense personal power this means that in most campaigns in FR in which your PCs are doing anything important, either a good reason has to be come up with for why the closest Chosen doesn't just swoop in and save the day or else the setting starts to break down. This is one of the reasons that Eberron is a much mroe pc-friendly setting: when the day needs saving, there is literally no one else to do it. Forgotten Realms is nice to look at from a distance, but when you actually begin to run games in it, it has problems, and the Chosen and Mystra are at the heart of that. |
| MaskedOne02-22-07, 06:08 PM | Distracting local Chosen is not precisely impossible. The Malaugrym were sufficient to hold a great deal of Elminster and the Simbul's attention and the Malaugrym are just one power group. Khelben, I won't go into at the moment. Laeral will be highly distracted for some time. Alustriel does have an alliance and city to run. Quilue, Storm and Dove while all quite experienced and formidable are not quite as given to flitting around Toril because of an incessant need to meddle on behalf of the world. The Srinshee does not meddle nearly as much as the rest (as far as we can tell), the former magister and the next Chosen whose name I don't remember aren't people I hear much about and so won't comment. Mystra's other unknown Chosen could be distracted if anyone knew anything about them. Since we don't, the can't really be handled except by the DM deciding not to factor them in. |
| Lord Karsus02-22-07, 06:32 PM | To those of you saying that a cleric can be denied spells by his god, an arcane caster can be denied spells by mystra. So when it comes down to Cadderly vs. a chosen they're all in the same boat. -Mystra already tried that once, and a tribunal of the major Faerūnian powers, and Ao, ruled that Mystra cannot deny certain individuals access to magic. Doing so would be..."illegal", for the lack of a better word. Thus, Mystra cannot simply deny X the Wizard the ability to cast Fireball, or Prismatic Spray. ON the other hand, it is perfectly normal for a deity to deny Y the Cleric use of Ressurection, or Harm, or Raise Undead, and so on. |
| MaskedOne02-22-07, 06:35 PM | Shrug, Something like that yes. Well that and Midnight finally figured out that attempting to control too directly the manner in which mortals wield magic interferes with free will to the extent of possibly being tyrranical and thus is a non-starter. |
| Stigger02-22-07, 07:13 PM | Seems to me that if you're thinking that the Chosen are going to get themselves involved in every minor crisis out there, you're looking at them incorrectly, particularly from an internal Realms history point of view. They hardly involve themselves in every major crisis of history... I'll admit that it seems that way at the moment, but I blame that more on a proliferation of RSE's and some bad choices as far as the storyline goes. Looking over the history of the Realms, they seem far more prone to watching and nudging occassionally, rather than wading into the thick of things. Except maybe the Simbul... but she seems to be the exception to most 'rules' about the Chosen. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-23-07, 01:00 PM | This is what you don't understand. And a clever player can come up with about 5 strategies that Cadderly can come up with to smash the Chosen before they know what is happening. And a clever player could come up with about 40 ways to turn Cadderly into a tuna sandwich givin access to Chosen powers. LISTEN TO US. CADDERLY IS HORRIBLY OUTCLASSED. MANY OF US LIKE HIM. HE IS STILL TOAST, TOAST HOLDING A PRETTY BOOK. The Chosen of Mystra don't know everything thats going on. Elminster doesn't always have just the right spell. In a novel anything can go either way. But when you are talking about game statistics. Take Elminsters player into the other room have him pick his spells and ready himself, same with Cadderly's player. Then bring them back into the room and roll the die and begin. Oh, oh. I want this one. I note there was no prepatory casting. Goody.(At this point I must note you said "ready himself", I guess that can be prepatory casting. In that case I get no fun, cause El would just cut Cad's head of with a sword inside an antimagic shell, so lets go with no prep.) El's init= +10. Yours? Time Stop.....1.....2.....3......May I have three reflex saves at a DC of 32? Oh..cant make those? Well, lets see, that enhanced maximized acidball(8th) did 20d6 so thats 120, that enhanced maximized soniball(8th) did 20d6 so thats 120, and that enhanced maximized electroball(8th) did 20d6 so thats 120. Hm, you take 360HPs. Ahh, what a pretty book, lets just wipe off these bits of robe..:mage: If you take away some of the levels in the classes that the chosen have but don't have hardly any levels in then it makes a big difference. Yeah the Simbul may have 20 level in Sorcerer 10 in Wizard and 2 in archmage, but when it comes down to spellcasting her caster level is only 22. Elminster's is like 25 I think. Take Elminster except for the saves, hit points and evasion from rogue his other classes really won't make a difference in a spell battle. Haven't you ever read a book with a battle in it either spell or melee and you say to yourself "Well I would have done this different or cast this spell instead of that spell"? That lightning bolt didn't do anything, well lets reverse it and use a fireball instead, the out come may prove to be different. It boils down to the player and the roll of the dice. The rest of this jibberish just shows you can't tell a feat from your feet. :pbbbtt: :rant: :banghead: :censored: :headexplo :censored: :banghead: :rant: :pbbbtt: Must go fight the Horde now, they make more sense... |
| Lord Karsus02-23-07, 01:46 PM | Must go fight the Horde now, they make more sense... :rofl: -That got me laughing hysterically... |
| Alediran02-23-07, 01:52 PM | :rofl: -That got me laughing hysterically... You scare me :( |
| ShadezofDis02-23-07, 02:38 PM | Must go fight the Horde now, they make more sense... This, my friend, is the only part of your post I did not like, Horde ftw :p Otherwise, you trying to level up your pwning Bren? I'm seein it all over the place round here. ;) All that said, most Chosen of Mystra>Cadderly. If Cadderly is attacking a Chosen without the Chosen's knowledge then Cadderly will most likely win. If a Chosen is attacking Cadderly without Cadderly's knowledge then the Chosen will most likely win. Gods can and do deny spells to their priests. Mystra does not, and would pay SUCH a huge price if she did, deny magic to ANYONE. Last, I'm pretty sure that a god can still grant spells even if they're cut off from the weave. I mean, I'm not 100% by any strech of the imagination but I think that they can still grant spells (plus use any other divine powers they have). It's been a long time since Prince of Lies though so I don't know if there is any reference to that specifically. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-23-07, 03:27 PM | And a clever player could come up with about 40 ways to turn Cadderly into a tuna sandwich givin access to Chosen powers. LISTEN TO US. CADDERLY IS HORRIBLY OUTCLASSED. MANY OF US LIKE HIM. HE IS STILL TOAST, TOAST HOLDING A PRETTY BOOK. Oh, oh. I want this one. I note there was no prepatory casting. Goody.(At this point I must note you said "ready himself", I guess that can be prepatory casting. In that case I get no fun, cause El would just cut Cad's head of with a sword inside an antimagic shell, so lets go with no prep.) El's init= +10. Yours? Time Stop.....1.....2.....3......May I have three reflex saves at a DC of 32? Oh..cant make those? Well, lets see, that enhanced maximized acidball(8th) did 20d6 so thats 120, that enhanced maximized soniball(8th) did 20d6 so thats 120, and that enhanced maximized electroball(8th) did 20d6 so thats 120. Hm, you take 360HPs. Ahh, what a pretty book, lets just wipe off these bits of robe..:mage: The rest of this jibberish just shows you can't tell a feat from your feet. :pbbbtt: :rant: :banghead: :censored: :headexplo :censored: :banghead: :rant: :pbbbtt: Must go fight the Horde now, they make more sense... BrennonGoldeye is mean to everyone. I thought I was special!:weep: |
| ShadezofDis02-23-07, 03:51 PM | BrennonGoldeye is mean to everyone. I thought I was special!:weep: Don't worry LLKN, you're special in and of yourself. Nothing Bren does can take that away from you :) |
| MarkusTay6302-23-07, 04:57 PM | Yeah LLKN, you're just annoying, Xun is in a class all by himself. ;) |
| Alediran02-23-07, 05:17 PM | Yeah LLKN, you're just annoying, Xun is in a class all by himself. ;) Xun is more like an ASP code that refuses to work. |
| Terraneaux02-23-07, 05:24 PM | I'd just like to point out that the two most important things in resolving high level spellcaster combats are your initiative check and how intelligently you set up your Contingency spell. Now, the Chosen likely have a higher initiative check than Cadderly, but mechanically, if he does win initiative, he really should win. Going by fluff, it's a different story, but of course no matter how hard either authors or designers try, story and rules are never going to match up perfectly. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-23-07, 06:14 PM | Don't worry LLKN, you're special in and of yourself. Nothing Bren does can take that away from you :) What ever ShadezofDip!:rolleyes: Just because someone has a different opinion then your own doesnt mean they are wrong. Just means you are being close minded. Everyone on these boards has different ideas about what should be going on in the Realms, but most of us can admit when we are wrong. Bren doesnt seem to be able. Bren may not agree with Xun, but I would hardly call his remarks gibberish.:rolleyes: And thats gibberish Bren not jibberish! If youre going to insult someones ideas at least insult them with the correct spelling.:P |
| Lord Karsus02-23-07, 11:31 PM | Bren may not agree with Xun, but I would hardly call his remarks gibberish.:rolleyes: -No, no. You should have seen some of the things that were posted by Xun before you started hanging 'round here, LLKN. I, personally, recall getting into an "argument" with him about the appearance of the Srinshee in Myth Drannor, which was clearly written in Final Gate. Crazy times... |
| Agudo Archmage02-24-07, 12:44 AM | With all the flaming going on, I almost lost track of what this is about :rolleyes: Soltares Given the nature of her portfolio (can deny all of the other gods access to their powers? Yikes), I think I'd rather not have a terribly clever person getting that job... She's dangerous enough as it is. From my understanding Elvin Magic is different At least it’s hinted that way :confused: I always saw the power of Mystra, not as (all powerful) But more like a Caretaker of Magic The other powerful beings (so called gods) allow here the position In other words, it benefits the other powerful beings, when magic is used I kind of see them vote every so often in her favor As long as she makes magic grow, she keeps her position Be it used by evil Thayens or good people The more it is used the better for her to keep the Portfolio If not that then, I can’t understand what keeps her in check, from taking over the other powerful beings? Soltares do love the setting, particularly it's inclusive nature (somewhere in the realms, I can find almost anything I want, whether it be asian-themed societies, egyptians, genie-commanding wizards, snake cults, undead dragons, sea elven cities, evil magocracies or gun-toting gnomes). But gods-empowered 30th+ level NPC ubermages just don't have any practical use in the games I run Well said The Storyteller GM/DM should always make the game challenging Lord of the Rings is good example of such Sure the Gray Wizard Gandalf, could have flown on a giant bird and dump that gold ring into the volcano BUT! Where the fun in that? I say grab some Hobbits and Dwarfs and let the game begin :) |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-24-07, 12:56 AM | -No, no. You should have seen some of the things that were posted by Xun before you started hanging 'round here, LLKN. I, personally, recall getting into an "argument" with him about the appearance of the Srinshee in Myth Drannor, which was clearly written in Final Gate. Crazy times... I want to know when in the Final Gate did she appear actually. I don't know if the Hardback is different from the paper back. But after Sarya's head explodes and they leave it cuts to Araevin coming to Myth Drannor seeing his ex and Starbrow, her wearing the Crownblade at her hip as a scepter and then him leaving thats it. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-24-07, 12:58 AM | :pbbbtt: :rant: :banghead: :censored: :headexplo :censored: :banghead: :rant: :pbbbtt: Must go fight the Horde now, they make more sense... Please please bang your head until you gain some sense. |
| MarkusTay6302-24-07, 01:00 AM | From my understanding Elvin Magic is different At least its hinted that way :confused: Yes, Elvin magic is ONLY good for baking stuff, like cookies... Now, Elven Magic on the other hand, is a whole 'nother ball of wax. ;) |
| Agudo Archmage02-24-07, 01:08 AM | MarkusTay63 Yes, Elvin magic is ONLY good for baking stuff, like cookies... Now, Elven Magic on the other hand, is a whole 'nother ball of wax. ;) HA!:embarrass Well then if you can answer my last question I had, I could then go to bed :P I always saw the power of Mystra, not as (all powerful) But more like a Caretaker of Magic The other powerful beings (so called gods) allow here the position In other words, it benefits the other powerful beings, when magic is used I kind of see them vote every so often in her favor As long as she makes magic grow, she keeps her position Be it used by evil Thayens or good people The more it is used the better for her to keep the Portfolio If not that then, I cant understand what keeps her in check, from taking over the other powerful beings? |
| MaskedOne02-24-07, 01:22 AM | Agudo: Elven magic has dependent on edition and author certain unique traits. It almost never bypasses the Weave or Mystra's authority. The unique (again dependent on edition and author, the trend is far less prevalent in 3E) traits of elven magic are due to a connection and understanding of the Weave not shared by most others. As their power is mostly based in the Weave, it is within Mystra's jurisdiction on Toril and barring her death or the intervention of AO that is not really open to debate by the pantheon. Corellon himself (with or without the massed might of the Seldarine behind him) can't really overrule her within the bounds of Toril on the subject of governance of the Weave. This is not to say Mystra is all powerful. Outside her home plane and Toril, Deny Weave does zilch. It is also useless against Divine Salient Abilities and certain other tricks. Mystra is one of the mightiest powers active on Toril (the mightiest if one asks Greenwood) but she is not currently so far beyond them that she can wage war against a major pantheon and win and should say Corellon and the Seldarine set out to kill rather than merely try and overrule her influence of the then things get messy. The Seldarine would likely as matters stand win and one of them might steal control of the Weave. The other key check is AO. It is theorized that without power diversions like the Chosen, Mystra could become an overpower, in which case the collective pantheons cease to be a threat. However, Mystra potential aside is not currently an overpower nor likely to become one anytime soon. As such, her actions fall under AO's supervision and certain behaviour is not tolerated. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-24-07, 03:52 AM | -No, no. You should have seen some of the things that were posted by Xun before you started hanging 'round here, LLKN. I, personally, recall getting into an "argument" with him about the appearance of the Srinshee in Myth Drannor, which was clearly written in Final Gate. Crazy times... ok then Bren wont make my list! It's a short list! |
| ElberethSilverleaf02-24-07, 03:55 AM | Whenever I read a mention of ao I nearly barf. The whole "overgod" plot device completely gets under my skin. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-24-07, 04:01 AM | Whenever I read a mention of ao I nearly barf. The whole "overgod" plot device completely gets under my skin. Read the Avatar novels again. You might change your mind. I have grown to like the concept over the years. Especially as a Plane Scape fan. You know whats funny about those Novels? I bought them again when they were reprinted, because I liked the cover art. Guess what they still have the same typos! |
| GothicDan02-24-07, 09:23 AM | I am a Planescape Fanatic, and I despise the Avatar Trilogy with a vehement vengeance. The the two most preeminent Planescape fans on these boards (Rip and Shemmy) also were not fond of it, if I remember correctly. Don't try to link that terrible disaster of a plot device with anything regarding the awesomeness of Planescape. ;) |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-24-07, 02:28 PM | I am a Planescape Fanatic, and I despise the Avatar Trilogy with a vehement vengeance. The the two most preeminent Planescape fans on these boards (Rip and Shemmy) also were not fond of it, if I remember correctly. Don't try to link that terrible disaster of a plot device with anything regarding the awesomeness of Planescape. ;) plot device? Are you mad?:rolleyes: :confused: The books were Necessary to bring about changes in the divine structure. I admit they were not the best write books in the world, but the story was still interesting. Also if you remember all Gods are represented in Planescape! Including the Gods of Abeir-Toril. So dispite what you wish the Champaigns are linked. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-24-07, 05:36 PM | plot device? Are you mad?:rolleyes: :confused: The books were Necessary to bring about changes in the divine structure. I admit they were not the best write books in the world, but the story was still interesting. Also if you remember all Gods are represented in Planescape! Including the Gods of Abeir-Toril. So dispite what you wish the Champaigns are linked. Lord as much as I like you I will have to disagree about the Avatar trilogy. I think that was one of the dumbest storylines I have ever read. Since Ao is there, if he wanted his "children" to learn a lesson why not just cut them off from their followers like pinching someones breathing tube until they are on the verge of passing out then either let it go or let them die. Ao should have let their power decrease and decrease to let them know what it is like not to have followers. Let them grow weak to teach them a lesson. Not this turning them into mortals so that real mortals may have the chance to kill them and take over their positions. |
| MarkusTay6302-24-07, 05:47 PM | You know what I love MOST about this forum? That most of its members are not 'clickish'; in other words, you can have a love-fest with someone on one thread, and vehemently disagree with them and side with your enemies on another. That is VERY mature, and not an easy thing to find in most forums. Sorry LLKN, but it looks like you are all alone on this one. ;) |
| Stigger02-24-07, 06:01 PM | Actually, I do tend to agree that I liked the effects of it for the most part... but saying that, I got into the Realms after a friend loaned me Forgotten Realms Adventures, so post ToT was always the norm to me. Looking back on it, I regret not going after some older books and getting familiar with the pre-ToT setting, but my head wasn't exactly screwed on straight back then, so... :D |
| Lord Karsus02-24-07, 06:45 PM | I want to know when in the Final Gate did she appear actually. I don't know if the Hardback is different from the paper back. But after Sarya's head explodes and they leave it cuts to Araevin coming to Myth Drannor seeing his ex and Starbrow, her wearing the Crownblade at her hip as a scepter and then him leaving thats it. -I don't believe there is a hardcover of Final Gate. Anyway, I am not going to repeat myself for the billionth time concerning the Srinshee. Go back to that thread and reread it, if you are still confused... Please please bang your head until you gain some sense. -I think Brennon has a decent amount of sense. He has enough sense to align himself with this third, anyway...:D |
| BrennonGoldeye02-24-07, 08:19 PM | It's like watching Lucy and Ethel together for the first time......No smiley would do justice. |
| The Simbul02-24-07, 09:20 PM | First off, you must not have ever played a cleric before because a cleric with access to every spell known at that instant is a hell of a lot more powerful than anything the Chosen have. There are many many many spells that clerics can cast that can render arcane magic users down to worthlessness just because you may not be able to play a cleric very well doesn't mean that other can't.Your superior gaming knowledge over the rest of us, myself included, has yet to show itself in this discussion, so please by all means indulge me and my apparent utter ignorance of how to play a spellcaster :rolleyes: On note for the sake of clarity, the cleric class spell list is vastly inferior to the spells available to a sorcerer or wizard, specifically spells available to a the sorcerer/wizard in the Forgotten Realms. As to the main issue, we are not talking about any given cleric with spontaneous spellcasting. We are talking about Cadderly Bonaduce, the Chosen of Deneir, in relation to your illogical statement of "Look at Cadderly he is the Chosen of Denier and stronger than any of Mystra's chosen." I'd wager my knowledge of the cleric class spell list, specifically its utter uselessness in the hands of Cadderly Bonaduce against Elminster, Storm, the Simbul, etc against your claimed expertise on the matter any day of the week...and I will be more than happy to demonstrate such by eviscerating your statement that "Cadderly is the Chosen of Denier and stronger than any of Mystra's chosen" at the denouement of this reply below. But first, let's address a few other issuesI don't remember your word being the final say so on all matters, your response is just another opinion along with the many opinions of the rest of us. The difference between any precision or validity of the opinions I express on these boards, in contrast perhaps to those of certain other specific and unnamed individuals, is that I make an effort to research the issue at hand before making a reply, and I am able and willing to provide the verbatim quotes from published sources to back up my assertions.Silverfire can easily be dodged and it only does max damage of like 48 points big whoop.:rolleyes: I suppose if Elminster was a 1st level Commoner whose only special attack/special quality was silver fire, then perhaps your exceedingly narrow and myopic focus on the minutia of the rules regarding that ability might serve as a suitable basis for claiming Cadderly is Elminster's superior. Unfortunately such is not the case. Cadderly's ability to use the song of deneir to cast any cleric spell spontaneously isn't worth a damn when the other 99% of his stat block, specifically his wisdom score, his equipment, and his feat selections, are utter crap. But we will get to that soon enough.And listen carefully. We are not in character here this is real life discussion. The sages of the realms don't have a say so here. Lets go by game statistics.I wasn't speaking "in character", and if you read the rulebooks regarding the origins of Mystra's Chosen then you would know precisely what I was referring to when I mentioned "the sages of the realms". You made the following statements:The excuse about Mystra having too much power and having to give it to her chosen is so stupid it's infuriating. Silverfire is not powerful...If the excuse of power is going to be used, then the Chosen need to be demi-gods with certain aspects of magic divided up amongst them.I then proceeded to explain to you why you were wrong. When I refer to "the sages of the realms" I am not referring to people who post messages on these boards, nor am I referring characters in someone's campaign. I am referring to statements in the only game rulebook that ever attempted to fully explain "why" the Chosen of Mystra exist, and more precisely the book which told us that no one knows Mystra's true reasons for creating the Chosen. The only possible reasons that either we the readers, the players, or our characters may ever know are only theories, not hard concrete facts, since no hard concrete facts pertaining to Mystra's motives have been laid down in print. The Seven Sisters, page 6.This is the part of the tale that sages still argue heatedly about, because mortal beings in Toril do not know and probably will never know the “why”. Some say it was a command of the Overgod Ao that led Mystra to act as she did. Others claim it was her own wisdom, foresight, and self-sacrifice. Still others offer the good advice that divine affairs are beyond the understanding of mortals, and are best left that way; speculation is futile and even dangerous, as it has so often led to wars and general unpleasantness. For the record, let it stand that some learned folk in the Realms cling to the theory that Mystra’s power must be rooted (or “sourced” as they put it) in mortals. Others believe that she was ordered to lessen her own power by a greater authority. To minimize the destruction this divestment would visit on the Realms, they say, she decided to apportion it out to mortals rather than letting it be dissipated and gone forever (weakening magic throughout Toril) or letting it be given to other divine beings who, emboldened, might misuse it. A third theory holds that Mystra’s move to vest some of her divine power in mortals was a matter of clever tactics on her part. Supposedly, she foresaw the Time of Troubles and with it her own passing. She chose to decrease her personal power to make things as easy as possible for her (presumably mortal) successor and to avoid disaster should another entity win control over her in the chaotic period of wildly fluctuating divine power struggles that was the Time of Troubles. Whatever the reason, it is clear that Mystra told Azuth at about the time of the Year of the Rising Flame (0 DR) that some of her divine power must be given into the hands of mortals. It would slumber within them, so that Mystra could call on it only with their permission. It would serve to help them heal quickly and would stretch their years into virtual immortality, but otherwise it would avail them little. The Chosen might gain some special powers, but these would still be far less than those of a deity (see the following chapter, “Powers of the Chosen”, for the actual benefits of possessing some of Mystra’s power)Now of course if you either read that book, or in the absence of access to it at least had the scholarly decency to defer to those of us who have read it, then essentially your entire argument would have fallen flat before you posted it, and I would not have to waste my time correcting it...not so much for your benefit, since you persistently respond negatively and defensively whenever someone gives you knowledge, but rather for the benefit of anyone who had read your post and might have received a litany of incorrect information. The idea that Mystra was "forced" to divest her power into mortals is one of many theories as to why the Chosen exist, and none of the theories are, nor have ever been, laid down as as the one true correct reason for "why". More importantly, in terms of your assertion that the Chosen should be demigods if they hold part of her power, the paragraph I quoted fully explained the nature of Mystra's Chosen in terms of how they hold some of her power, and specifically why it doesn't turn them into demigods. The power that the Chosen hold within them acts as a reservoir for Mystra to call upon, or (in the case of the Time of Troubles) a safehold for it to reside should she be destroyed. The Chosen themselves cannot make use of the this true divine essence, but rather they receive a number of "side effect" abilities or other powers that are beneath those of a deity as a reward for the duty or carrying it. Now, as the little issue of "Cadderly he is the Chosen of Denier and stronger than any of Mystra's chosen." Hmm, since you love to "stick with the game stats", no matter how poorly made they could be, then lets have a look at Cadderly's 3.0 stat block shall we?Cadderly: Male human Chosen of Denier Clr 20; CR 24; Medium-size humanoid; HD 20d8+60; hp 150; Init +6; Spd 30 ft.; AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10; Atk +21/+16/+11 melee (1d6+8, +2 quarterstaff); or +17/+12/+7 (1d4+4, spindle disk), or +18 (1d4+1/19-20, hand crossbow with +1 crossbow bolts), or +19 ranged (1+2/19-20, +2 hand crossbow); SA advanced turning, brand of Denier, psionics, turn undead 5/day; SQ immunities, languages, shapechange, song of Denier, tome of harmony; AL NG; SV Fort +15, Ref +8, Will +19; Str 18, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 15. Skills and Feats: Diplomacy +7, Heal +6, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +22, Knowledge (history) +21, Knowledge (nature) +19, Knowledge (religion) +27, Profession (stoneworking) +12, Ride (horse) +4, Speak Language +3, Spellcraft +20, Wilderness Lore +8; Dodge, Education (Knowledge [history], Knowledge [nature]), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (hand crossbow), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (shuriken), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (repeating crossbow), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot. Advanced Turning (Su): If Cadderly makes a melee touch attack with his holy symbol against an undead creature, he can automatically use a turn undead attempt that round against that undead (affecting only that undead and no others nearby). This attempt counts as a use of the character's turn attempts for the day. He gains a +4 sacred bonus to his turning check and turning damage with this attack. Brand of Deneir (Su): By calling upon the holy power of Deneir and pressing his holy symbol to the forehead of an evil creature (a melee touch attack that provokes an attack of opportunity), Cadderly can permanently brand the target with Deneir's symbol. This magical brand cannot be healed, but it can be dispelled. Any good-aligned being that sees the brand immediately knows that the bearer is evil and the viewer's attitude shifts one category toward hostile where appropriate. Spell-like Abilities: Once per day -- antipathy, daze, detect lies, detect thoughts, dominate person, enthrall, mass suggestion, mind blank, Rary's telepathic bond, sending, shield other, suggestion. Caster level 20th; save DC 12 + spell level. Immunities (Ex): The Chosen of Deneir is immune to disease, level draining, negative levels, and poison. Languages (Su): Upon becoming a Chosen of Deneir, Cadderly immediately gained knowledge of a number of languages equal to his Intelligence modifier (Damaran, Dwarven, Elven, and Mulhorandi). These languages are lost if Cadderly ever loses his Chosen of Deneir status. Shapechange (Su): Cadderly can change into a single animal form partially. This is similar to a lycanthrope's hybrid form, and, in Cadderly's case, is a large, white-furred, flying squirrel. There is no limit to the amount of time that can be spent in this form, nor to the number of uses per day. Cadderly gains low-light vision, a climb speed of 30 feet, a +8 bonus on Balance checks, and can fall safely up to 50 feet as long as he is not helpless. (He needs to be able to take physical actions to orient his wing-flaps and fall.) Song of Deneir (Su): Cadderly does not need to prepare his clerical spells. Instead, he mentally reviews a unique magical song called the Song of Deneir, which then places the spell in his mind so that he can immediately cast it. This means that casting a spell in this manner is always at least a full round action. (If it's less than a full round, it becomes a full round much like a sorcerer casting metamagicked spells. If it's already a full round or longer, the casting time is unchanged.) Cadderly may prepare clerical spells normally. He is still nominally limited to the number of spells per day that he can cast as determined by Table 3-6: The Cleric in the Player's Handbook. He can cast his normal number of spells per day, but each spell cast beyond this limit risks a powerful headache that leaves him dazed for 1 hour and unable to cast spells above 4th level for a number of weeks equal to the level of the spell that caused the headache. He can avoid the headache by making a Constitution check (DC 18 + spell level + number of spells beyond the limit he has already cast in the past 24 hours). The Tome of Universal Harmony: Cadderly is the bearer of the Tome of Universal Harmony, which is the holiest of books of Deneir's faith and understandable only by his Chosen. The pages of the book are filled with mysterious runes, and over time the Chosen of Deneir can determine the pattern within the text -- it depicts the Song of Deneir, which is what gives Cadderly his unusual spellcasting ability. The book is handed from one Chosen of Deneir to the next when the old Chosen of Deneir realizes that his time of death is approaching. Any person other than a Chosen of Deneir who tries to read the book must make a Fortitude save (DC 25) or be knocked unconscious for one hour. Deity: Deneir. Domains: Good (cast good spells at +1 caster level), Knowledge (cast divinations at +1 caster level). Possessions: +2 quarterstaff, +2 blowgun, hand crossbow, spindle disk, drow sleep poison (1 dose), +1 hand crossbow bolts (each with a dose of oil of force bursts in a tiny vial which shatters if the bolt hits) (16) If you want the full details of the Chosen of Deneir template, or the stats for his obscure weaponry, the full text for them can be found here: http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_deneirCadderly has a Wisdom score of 20, which in an of itself is not too far below the Chosen. The problem of course is that, unlike the Chosen, he doesn't have any feats or class features that boost the DC of his spells, despite the fact that his stat block was created under the 3.0 rules, when characters could use things like spellcasting prodigy, spellpower, and spell focus to increase their spell save DCs. The 3.0 Chosen made extensive use those options, Cadderly did not, thus all the worse for him in this compare/contrast session. Meanwhile an AC of 12, un-bolstered saving throws, and an appallingly poor selection of feats easily make this the worst FR stat block I have ever seen, despite my abiding respect for the work of Sean K Reynolds. In addition Cadderly possesses no magic items on himself beyond a +2 quarterstaff, +2 blowgun, and a +1 handcrossbow, and he neither has the ability to create magic items, nor does the "possessions" section of his stat block contain any exceptions or caveats allowing for him to "acquire or make any non-artifact item, give time", which is a mainstay for all of Mystra's chosen. Perhaps he is trying to start a poverty fad within the church of Deneir :rolleyes: , but nonetheless, you prefer to go by the stats as written, and there we have them plain as day. Well lets see, Elminster, Storm, and the Simbul are Chosen of Mystra, and their 3.0 stat blocks can be found on pages 291, 293, and 296 of the Epic Level Handbook. Let's start with Elminster, and see how terribly "weak" he is in comparison to Cadderly. The saving throw DC for a 9th level cleric spell cast by Cadderly Bonaduce is 24. Elminster's fortitude saving throw is 1d20 + 29 Elminster's reflex saving throw is 1d20 +25 Elminster's will saving throw is 1d20 +29 Elminster will automatically succeed EVERY saving throw against spells cast by Cadderly unless he rolls a 1. In addition, Elminster has the evasion class feature, thus any reflex save spell that deals half damage on a successful save will not touch him. As such, of the 200+ Cleric spells in the Player's Handbook, and the 18 domain spells Cadderly has access to, only 5 such spells will actually do more than scratch against Elminster. So much for Cadderly's much appraised but functionally worthless spontaneous spellcasting. As for those five spells, they are Antimagic Field, Energy Drain, Destruction, Harm, and Miracle. Antimagic Field will suppress all of Elminster's spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and magic items. Elminster can of course use a move action to escape the field and banish it with silver fire, but why bother? Because, using the stats as written, if Cadderly cast such a spell it would be a death sentence for him. Thanks to being a Chosen of Mystra, Elminster has more than twice as many hitpoints as Cadderly, and even with the powers of his magic items suppressed Elminster still has a higher attack bonus and AC than Cadderly, and the same number of attacks per round. Destruction will do 10d6 damage on a successful saving throw. Unfortuneately, Elminster can kill Cadderly with his own spells 10x over in the time it would take Cadderly to slay Elminster with the secondary damage from this spell. As for Energy Drain, with luck on his side Cadderly will be able to get one casting of this spell in before Elminster uses a limited wish to emulate a death ward, assuming the sage of Shadowdale didnt already sufficiently shield himself for battle against the Chosen of Deneir beforehand. Add in the fact that Cadderly can only cast one spell per round, whereas Elminster can chain cast spells under the umbrella of timestop, and you can rest assured that he can easily recover from a successful assault. Meanwhile, Harm is only powerful vs. Elminster if you can get within touch range of your opponent, and even then only if you are using the 3.0 rules, since the 3.5 version will only dish out 75 damage per hit after a successful save, and Elminster can easily outdamage cadderly in that time frame. To be nice, I will continue on the assertion that since these are 3.0 stat blocks, we will adhere to the 3.0 rules, and thus harm retains its uberness. Of course that also opens up a pandora's box in terms of Elminster's offensive capabilities. Regardless, clerics do not readily have teleportation magic that can be used to bring yourself to an enemy, and Elminster can slay Cadderly with long range spells long before the Chosen of Deneir recieves his first move action. Miracle is the only spell of note Cadderly can effectively wield in this battle, and even then it is only effective because of its open-ended possible effects. Its pretty sad that despite the "uberness" of being able to cast any cleric spell spontaneously, he nonetheless only has one spell of note to actually use. Moreover, a wish spell cast by a Chosen and favorite of Mystra can be just as deadly as a miracle, specifically when you get into the realm of wording/intent a wish vs. its end result effect. Of course you are free to rummage through the scores of Forgotten Realms or other accessories in hopes of finding some obscure cleric spell that A) has no saving throw, and B) Cadderly can use to can kill Elminster before he does the same, but truth be told your chances are resoundingly slim. Of course Elminster doesn't have to allow Cadderly the luxury of casting any spells at all. With a higher base initiative modifier, and access to Kauper's skittish nerves, Elminster has a far better chance of winning initiative, and since he has actual ranks in the spot skill he has a better chance of getting a suprise round against Cadderly. As such, he can simply ready an action to blast Cadderly with the arcane fire of his Archmage prestige class if Cadderly tries to cast a spell, and in turn disrupt the spell as it is being cast thanks to the insurmountable concentration check DC Cadderly would incur from the damage. Now after all that, we have not even touched on what Elminster can do vs. Cadderly. Well lets see, keeping again to the 3.0 rules, the saving throw DC against a 9th level spell cast by Elminster is 31, or 33 if the spell belongs to the schools of evocation or enchantment. Cadderly's fort save is 1d20 +15 Cadderly's reflex save is 1d20 +8 Cadderly's will save is 1d20 +19 A twinned chain lightning spell (which uses a 9th level spell slot when cast by Elminster) will deal two blasts of 70 points of damage using the average damage dice rules found in the Epic Level Handbook. Cadderly cannot succeed the saving throw (DC 29) unless he rolls a 20 for automatic success. As such, the single spell cast by Elminster will deal 140 points of damage, bringing the Chosen of Deneir down to 10hp. But of course the fun doesnt end there. This single attack spell could have been cast during a suprise round (Elminster's spot modifier is +10, whereas Cadderly doesnt even have a listed spot modifier or ranks in the skill), or be cast during a timestop, or be cast alongside virtually ANY damaging spell unleashed from a Simbul's spell matrix/sequencer/trigger. No matter how your slice it, Elminster can slay Cadderly in a single round, whereas Cadderly can only slay Elminster if you have an idiot as the DM. As for Storm, her saving throws are on par with Elminster's in terms of being insurmountable by Cadderly's spell save DC, and she likewise has the evasion class feature. In addition, even if she does roll a natural 1 on a save, she can undo it with the power of good fortune from her luckblade. Rather than expand this reply by digressing on a myriad of tactics for her, we can just sum it all down to Storm casting an antimagic field, and the proceeding to hack Cadderly apart from within--again with Storm having twice as many HP, a superior AC and attack bonus, and the same number of attacks per round, even with her magic suppressed. In terms of the Simbul, her saving throws against spells are also beyond Cadderly's ability to overcome, and she can slay him in one round with far greater efficiency than Elminster could, since she can spontaneously cast timestop spells, and in turn use them to either chain cast attack spells (3.0) or chain cast attack spells modifier by the Delay Spell feat (3.5), to vaporize him once it wears off...all in in addition to quickened attack spells from her Simbul's spell matrix/sequencer/triggers. Of course all of the above would require someone to actually read the stat blocks of the characters in question, rather than founding an erroneous opinion on one single ability found within said statistics. |
| Stigger02-24-07, 09:37 PM | Wow... hard to say that's anything other than pure pwning... :blink: |
| The Simbul02-24-07, 10:04 PM | Chosen are tough. Chosen of mystra are even more tough. I guess being chosen of a greater deity outpowers a chosen of a less powerful patron. Still it doesnt make sense that the same stat(+4) be given to templates so different and obviously unbalanced.Because the relative power of one deity over another will not result in a discrepancy of power between their clerics on Toril, you could argue that using that as a precedent, it serves to explain why all Chosen templates (as well as similar divine-servant templates, like the Magister) thus far all have the same +4 CR adjustment. I believe somewhere in the deity section of the FRCS it tells us that Greater/Intermediate/Lesser deity status will not impact the power of the clerics of that deity vs. the cleric or a weaker deity. If such was not the case, then no one would want to serve a deity like Savras when they could serve Oghma. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-24-07, 10:14 PM | Wow... hard to say that's anything other than pure pwning... :blink: Agreed. I'm humbled..:bow: |
| The Simbul02-24-07, 10:31 PM | -No, Cadderly has access to whatever spells Denier sees fit to bestow upon him. As I said before, if Denier feels like Cadderly should not be able to cast spells starting with the letter 'A', then Cadderly cannot cast such spells.Correct, although once a spell is granted (such as a prepared spell) it cannot normally be taken away without direct intervention on the party of the Deity.Please tell me where it states that.In the rules for Deities and their ability to grant (or withhold) spells from their followers, in the Divine section of the S.R.D. and in Deities and Demigods and in Faiths and Pantheons;Grant Spells: A deity automatically grants spells and domain powers to mortal divine spellcasters who pray to it. Most deities can grant spells from the cleric spell list, the ranger spell list, and from three or more domains. Deities with levels in the druid class can grant spells from the druid spell list, and deities with paladin levels can grant spells from the paladin spell list. A deity can withhold spells from any particular mortal as a free action; once a spell has been granted, it remains in the mortal’s mind until expended. If Cadderly has already prepared a spell ahead of time then it cannot be taken away by Deneir, or rather I should say it cannot be taken away by using that specific Grant Spells ability (a deity has other methods to use if they really wanted to stop a follower from casting a spell). As for Cadderly's spontaneously cast spells through the song of Deneir, Deneir can deny any of them on the spot because these spells are "granted" at the exact same moment that they are being cast. |
| Lord Karsus02-24-07, 11:38 PM | In the rules for Deities and their ability to grant (or withhold) spells from their followers, in the Divine section of the S.R.D. and in Deities and Demigods and in Faiths and Pantheons -Thanks for the rebound, Simbul. For the life of me, I couldn't find where that was stated. Of course, I was looking in the Core D&D books, and not the FR Books. :embarrass |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-24-07, 11:57 PM | Your superior gaming knowledge over the rest of us, myself included, has yet to show itself in this discussion, so please by all means indulge me and my apparent utter ignorance of how to play a spellcaster :rolleyes: On note for the sake of clarity, the cleric class spell list is vastly inferior to the spells available to a sorcerer or wizard, specifically spells available to a the sorcerer/wizard in the Forgotten Realms. As to the main issue, we are not talking about any given cleric with spontaneous spellcasting. We are talking about Cadderly Bonaduce, the Chosen of Deneir, in relation to your incredulous statement of "Look at Cadderly he is the Chosen of Denier and stronger than any of Mystra's chosen." I'd wager my knowledge of the cleric class spell list, specifically its utter uselessness in the hands of Cadderly Bonaduce against Elminster, Storm, the Simbul, etc against your claimed expertise on the matter any day of the week...and I will be more than happy to demonstrate such by eviscerating your statement that "Cadderly is the Chosen of Denier and stronger than any of Mystra's chosen" at the denouement of this reply below. But first, let's address a few other issuesThe difference between the any precision and validity of opinions I express on these boards, in contrast perhaps to those of certain other specific and unnamed individuals, is that I make an effort to research the issue at hand before making a reply, and I am able and willing to provide the verbatim quotes from published sources to back up my assertions.:rolleyes: I suppose if Elminster was a 1st level Commoner whose only special attack/special quality was silver fire, then perhaps your exceedingly narrow and myopic focus on the minutia of the rules regarding that ability might serve as a suitable basis for claiming Cadderly is Elminster's superior. Unfortunately such is not the case. Cadderly's ability to use the song of deneir to cast any cleric spell spontaneously isn't worth a damn when the other 99% of his stat block, specifically his wisdom score, his equipment, and his feat selections, are utter crap. But we will get to that soon enough.I wasn't speaking "in character", and if you read the rulebooks regarding the origins of Mystra's Chosen then you would know precisely what I was referring to when I mentioned "the sages of the realms". You made the following statements:I then proceeded to explain to you why you were wrong. When I refer to "the sages of the realms" I am not referring to people who post messages on these boards, nor am I referring characters in someone's campaign. I am referring to statements in the only game rulebook that ever attempted to fully explain "why" the Chosen of Mystra exist, and more precisely the book which told us that no one knows Mystra's true reasons for creating the Chosen. The only possible reasons that either we the readers, the players, or our characters may ever know are only theories, not hard concrete facts, since no hard concrete facts pertaining to Mystra's motives have been laid down in print. The Seven Sisters, page 6..Now of course if you either read that book, or in the absence of access to it at least had the scholarly decency to defer to those of us who have read it, then essentially your entire argument would have fallen flat before you posted it, and I would not have to waste my time correcting it...not so much for your benefit, since you persistently respond negatively and defensively whenever someone gives you knowledge, but rather for the benefit of anyone who had read your post and might have received a litany of incorrect information. The idea that Mystra was "forced" to divest her power into mortals is one of many theories as to why the Chosen exist, and none of the theories are, nor have ever been, laid down as as the one true correct reason for "why". More importantly, in terms of your assertion that the Chosen should be demigods if they hold part of her power, the paragraph I quoted fully explained the nature of Mystra's Chosen in terms of how they hold some of her power, and specifically why it doesn't turn them into demigods. The power that the Chosen hold within them acts as a reservoir for Mystra to call upon, or (in the case of the Time of Troubles) a safehold for it to reside should she be destroyed. The Chosen themselves cannot make use of the this true divine essence, but rather they receive a number of "side effect" abilities or other powers that are beneath those of a deity as a reward for the duty or carrying it. Now, as the little issue of "Cadderly he is the Chosen of Denier and stronger than any of Mystra's chosen." Hmm, since you love to "stick with the game stats", no matter how poorly made they could be, then lets have a look at Cadderly's 3.0 stat block shall we?Cadderly: Male human Chosen of Denier Clr 20; CR 24; Medium-size humanoid; HD 20d8+60; hp 150; Init +6; Spd 30 ft.; AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10; Atk +21/+16/+11 melee (1d6+8, +2 quarterstaff); or +17/+12/+7 (1d4+4, spindle disk), or +18 (1d4+1/19-20, hand crossbow with +1 crossbow bolts), or +19 ranged (1+2/19-20, +2 hand crossbow); SA advanced turning, brand of Denier, psionics, turn undead 5/day; SQ immunities, languages, shapechange, song of Denier, tome of harmony; AL NG; SV Fort +15, Ref +8, Will +19; Str 18, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 15. Skills and Feats: Diplomacy +7, Heal +6, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +22, Knowledge (history) +21, Knowledge (nature) +19, Knowledge (religion) +27, Profession (stoneworking) +12, Ride (horse) +4, Speak Language +3, Spellcraft +20, Wilderness Lore +8; Dodge, Education (Knowledge [history], Knowledge [nature]), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (hand crossbow), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (shuriken), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (repeating crossbow), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot. Advanced Turning (Su): If Cadderly makes a melee touch attack with his holy symbol against an undead creature, he can automatically use a turn undead attempt that round against that undead (affecting only that undead and no others nearby). This attempt counts as a use of the character's turn attempts for the day. He gains a +4 sacred bonus to his turning check and turning damage with this attack. Brand of Deneir (Su): By calling upon the holy power of Deneir and pressing his holy symbol to the forehead of an evil creature (a melee touch attack that provokes an attack of opportunity), Cadderly can permanently brand the target with Deneir's symbol. This magical brand cannot be healed, but it can be dispelled. Any good-aligned being that sees the brand immediately knows that the bearer is evil and the viewer's attitude shifts one category toward hostile where appropriate. Spell-like Abilities: Once per day -- antipathy, daze, detect lies, detect thoughts, dominate person, enthrall, mass suggestion, mind blank, Rary's telepathic bond, sending, shield other, suggestion. Caster level 20th; save DC 12 + spell level. Immunities (Ex): The Chosen of Deneir is immune to disease, level draining, negative levels, and poison. Languages (Su): Upon becoming a Chosen of Deneir, Cadderly immediately gained knowledge of a number of languages equal to his Intelligence modifier (Damaran, Dwarven, Elven, and Mulhorandi). These languages are lost if Cadderly ever loses his Chosen of Deneir status. Shapechange (Su): Cadderly can change into a single animal form partially. This is similar to a lycanthrope's hybrid form, and, in Cadderly's case, is a large, white-furred, flying squirrel. There is no limit to the amount of time that can be spent in this form, nor to the number of uses per day. Cadderly gains low-light vision, a climb speed of 30 feet, a +8 bonus on Balance checks, and can fall safely up to 50 feet as long as he is not helpless. (He needs to be able to take physical actions to orient his wing-flaps and fall.) Song of Deneir (Su): Cadderly does not need to prepare his clerical spells. Instead, he mentally reviews a unique magical song called the Song of Deneir, which then places the spell in his mind so that he can immediately cast it. This means that casting a spell in this manner is always at least a full round action. (If it's less than a full round, it becomes a full round much like a sorcerer casting metamagicked spells. If it's already a full round or longer, the casting time is unchanged.) Cadderly may prepare clerical spells normally. He is still nominally limited to the number of spells per day that he can cast as determined by Table 3-6: The Cleric in the Player's Handbook. He can cast his normal number of spells per day, but each spell cast beyond this limit risks a powerful headache that leaves him dazed for 1 hour and unable to cast spells above 4th level for a number of weeks equal to the level of the spell that caused the headache. He can avoid the headache by making a Constitution check (DC 18 + spell level + number of spells beyond the limit he has already cast in the past 24 hours). The Tome of Universal Harmony: Cadderly is the bearer of the Tome of Universal Harmony, which is the holiest of books of Deneir's faith and understandable only by his Chosen. The pages of the book are filled with mysterious runes, and over time the Chosen of Deneir can determine the pattern within the text -- it depicts the Song of Deneir, which is what gives Cadderly his unusual spellcasting ability. The book is handed from one Chosen of Deneir to the next when the old Chosen of Deneir realizes that his time of death is approaching. Any person other than a Chosen of Deneir who tries to read the book must make a Fortitude save (DC 25) or be knocked unconscious for one hour. Deity: Deneir. Domains: Good (cast good spells at +1 caster level), Knowledge (cast divinations at +1 caster level). Possessions: +2 quarterstaff, +2 blowgun, hand crossbow, spindle disk, drow sleep poison (1 dose), +1 hand crossbow bolts (each with a dose of oil of force bursts in a tiny vial which shatters if the bolt hits) (16) If you want the full details of the Chosen of Deneir template, or the stats for his obscure weaponry, the full text for them can be found here: http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_deneirCadderly has a Wisdom score of 20, which in an of itself is not too far below the Chosen. The problem of course is that, unlike the Chosen, he doesn't have any feats or class features that boost the DC of his spells, despite the fact that his stat block was created under the 3.0 rules, when characters could use things like spellcasting prodigy, spellpower, and spell focus to increase their spell save DCs. The 3.0 Chosen made extensive use those options, Cadderly did not, thus all the worse for him in this compare/contrast session. Meanwhile an AC of 12, un-bolstered saving throws, and an appallingly poor selection of feats easily make this the worst FR stat block I have ever seen, despite my abiding respect for the work of Sean K Reynolds. In addition Cadderly possesses no magic items on himself beyond a +2 quarterstaff, +2 blowgun, and a +1 handcrossbow, and he neither has the ability to create magic items, nor does the "possessions" section of his stat block contain any exceptions or caveats allowing for him to "acquire or make any non-artifact item, give time", which is a mainstay for all of Mystra's chosen. Perhaps he is trying to start a poverty fad within the church of Deneir :rolleyes: , but nonetheless, you prefer to go by the stats as written, and there we have them plain as day. Well lets see, Elminster, Storm, and the Simbul are Chosen of Mystra, and their 3.0 stat blocks can be found on pages 291, 293, and 296 of the Epic Level Handbook. Let's start with Elminster, and see how terribly "weak" he is in comparison to Cadderly. The saving throw DC for a 9th level cleric spell cast by Cadderly Bonaduce is 24. Elminster's fortitude saving throw is 1d20 + 29 Elminster's reflex saving throw is 1d20 +25 Elminster's will saving throw is 1d20 +29 Elminster will automatically succeed EVERY saving throw against spells cast by Cadderly unless he rolls a 1. In addition, Elminster has the evasion class feature, thus any reflex save spell that deals half damage on a successful save will not touch him. As such, of the 200+ Cleric spells in the Player's Handbook, and the 18 domain spells Cadderly has access to, only 5 such spells will actually do more than scratch against Elminster. So much for Cadderly's much appraised but functionally worthless spontaneous spellcasting. As for those five spells, they are Antimagic Field, Energy Drain, Destruction, Harm, and Miracle. Antimagic Field will suppress all of Elminster's spells, spell-like abilities, supernatural abilities, and magic items. Elminster can of course use a move action to escape the field and banish it with silver fire, but why bother? Because, using the stats as written, if Cadderly cast such a spell it would be a death sentence for him. Thanks to being a Chosen of Mystra, Elminster has more than twice as many hitpoints as Cadderly, and even with the powers of his magic items suppressed Elminster still has a higher attack bonus and AC than Cadderly, and the same number of attacks per round. Destruction will do 10d6 damage on a successful saving throw. Unfortuneately, Elminster can kill Cadderly with his own spells 10x over in the time it would take Cadderly to slay Elminster with the secondary damage from this spell. As for Energy Drain, with luck on his side Cadderly will be able to get one casting of this spell in before Elminster uses a limited wish to emulate a death ward, assuming the sage of Shadowdale didnt already sufficiently shield himself for battle against the Chosen of Deneir beforehand. Add in the fact that Cadderly can only cast one spell per round, whereas Elminster can chain cast spells under the umbrella of timestop, and you can rest assured that he can easily recover from a successful assault. Meanwhile, Harm is only powerful vs. Elminster if you can get within touch range of your opponent, and even then only if you are using the 3.0 rules, since the 3.5 version will only dish out 75 damage per hit after a successful save, and Elminster can easily outdamage cadderly in that time frame. To be nice, I will continue on the assertion that since these are 3.0 stat blocks, we will adhere to the 3.0 rules, and thus harm retains its uberness. Of course that also opens up a pandora's box in terms of Elminster's offensive capabilities. Regardless, clerics do not readily have teleportation magic that can be used to bring yourself to an enemy, and Elminster can slay Cadderly with long range spells long before the Chosen of Deneir recieves his first move action. Miracle is the only spell of note Cadderly can effectively wield in this battle, and even then it is only effective because of its open-ended possible effects. Its pretty sad that despite the "uberness" of being able to cast any cleric spell spontaneously, he nonetheless only has one spell of note to actually use. Moreover, a wish spell cast by a Chosen and favorite of Mystra can be just as deadly as a miracle, specifically when you get into the realm of wording/intent a wish vs. its end result effect. Of course you are free to rummage through the scores of Forgotten Realms or other accessories in hopes of finding some obscure cleric spell that A) has no saving throw, and B) Cadderly can use to can kill Elminster before he does the same, but truth be told your chances are resoundingly slim. Of course Elminster doesn't have to allow Cadderly the luxury of casting any spells at all. With a higher base initiative modifier, and access to Kauper's skittish nerves, Elminster has a far better chance of winning initiative, and since he has actual ranks in the spot skill he has a better chance of getting a suprise round against Cadderly. As such, he can simply ready an action to blast Cadderly with the arcane fire of his Archmage prestige class if Cadderly tries to cast a spell, and in turn disrupt the spell as it is being cast thanks to the insurmountable concentration check DC Cadderly would incur from the damage. Now after all that, we have not even touched on what Elminster can do vs. Cadderly. Well lets see, keeping again to the 3.0 rules, the saving throw DC against a 9th level spell cast by Elminster is 31, or 33 if the spell belongs to the schools of evocation or enchantment. Cadderly's fort save is 1d20 +15 Cadderly's reflex save is 1d20 +8 Cadderly's will save is 1d20 +19 A twinned chain lightning spell (which uses a 9th level spell slot when cast by Elminster) will deal two blasts of 70 points of damage using the average damage dice rules found in the Epic Level Handbook. Cadderly cannot succeed the saving throw (DC 29) unless he rolls a 20 for automatic success. As such, the single spell cast by Elminster will deal 140 points of damage, bringing the Chosen of Deneir down to 10hp. But of course the fun doesnt end there. This single attack spell could have been cast during a suprise round (Elminster's spot modifier is +10, whereas Cadderly doesnt even have a listed spot modifier or ranks in the skill), or be cast during a timestop, or be cast alongside virtually ANY damaging spell unleashed from a Simbul's spell matrix/sequencer/trigger. No matter how your slice it, Elminster can slay Cadderly in a single round, whereas Cadderly can only slay Elminster if you have an idiot as the DM. As for Storm, her saving throws are on par with Elminster's in terms of being insurmountable by Cadderly's spell save DC, and she likewise has the evasion class feature. In addition, even if she does roll a natural 1 on a save, she can undo it with the power of good fortune from her luckblade. Rather than expand this reply by digressing on a myriad of tactics for her, we can just sum it all down to Storm casting an antimagic field, and the proceeding to hack Cadderly apart from within--again with Storm having twice as many HP, a superior AC and attack bonus, and the same number of attacks per round, even with her magic suppressed. In terms of the Simbul, her saving throws against spells are also beyond Cadderly's ability to overcome, and she can slay him in one round with far greater efficiency than Elminster could, since she can spontaneously cast timestop spells, and in turn use them to either chain cast attack spells (3.0) or chain cast attack spells modifier by the Delay Spell feat (3.5), to vaporize him once it wears off...all in in addition to quickened attack spells from her Simbul's spell matrix/sequencer/triggers. Of course all of the above would require someone to actually read the stat blocks of the characters in question, rather than founding an erroneous opinion on one single ability found within said statistics. Look i'm not going to argue with you. Just because you say something that doesn't mean it's correct case closed. I don't know if you have ever participated in a spell-battle during games, or have played in a lot of games, but number stats don't always make the difference. Now I have been playing spellcasters since 1st edition. I know a lot of spell combos, what good defences to put up etc.. Ok, now a cleric is one buffing machine. Clerics do not need a lot of magical items to buff themselves up. Ok I don't care if Joe Blow has a Reflex save of 30. Each individual person can get behind the wheel of a character and especially with spellcaster and defeat apponents who was sure to win. I know exactly what the stats are on the Chosen. I have all of their stats. When you have been playing a long time you will understand that just because you have awesome stats that doesn't mean you are a shoe in to win. It's like a race car. Sure you may have the fastest car on the track, but if you don't know how to drive it well then you won't win the race. You have that thing called strategy. And look at this also. Cadderly has access to magical items. I'm sure he could get his hands on any non-artifact item he wanted if he needed it. Now a 1st level character beating a 20th, no that won't work. But with spellcasters there are spells that help boost DC's, boost stats, boost saves, boost spell power, render magic useless, there is initiative, there is terrain, there are all sorts of things that can affect the outcome. But a true veteran of D&D knows that the battle isn't won just because certain odds maybe in your favor. It all boils down to how the character is played. |
| Lord Karsus02-25-07, 12:09 AM | -Simbul, I don't know if you were aware or not, but I am renting out my Sphere of Annihilation. For you- and only because I like you- 10 GP per hour. |
| Gallameed02-25-07, 12:49 AM | Am I the only one who thinks a shiz loada peeps wanna kick my poor homegrrl Mystra right in her uber divine poonani for no good reason?! Jus' Get over your 'cha, cha 'check tha món' selves! Anyone here like cabbage? I love cabbįge me, it's rockin and top! |
| Agudo Archmage02-25-07, 01:12 AM | Since my char is a Cleric/Wizard I can sympathies with XunValDorl basic ideas I normally focus on his Clerical personality and have him solve problems with his faith The Cleric in my mind doesn’t get enough respect in FR/D&D books Its seems to me a Cleric of high enough power, would be just as good to have around as a Wizard But in the big picture of what is being argued here is… Cleric versus Wizard If you have lets say a CL lv 15 ver WZ lv 15 Who would win? Some would say it depends on the stats of the char Or the prepared Spells each would have Plus the nifty devices they carry on them In any case, trying to prove XunValDorl wrong wont work Why? Because he has faith that he is right and you guys are wrong That’s what makes a good Cleric ;) |
| Gallameed02-25-07, 01:20 AM | CAbbAGE! WINZ! |
| MaskedOne02-25-07, 02:49 AM | Because he has faith that he is right and you guys are wrong Thats what makes a good Cleric ;) Or a dead zealot. Faith is valuable and as a character trait I can highly respect it. I also highly respect intelligence and can provide with minimal research a laundry list of problems both can cause when taken toward wrong ends. Bypassing bloody history, while faith might be the mark of a good cleric, the capacity to share and support ideas in such a way that one's statements can stand up to criticism when advocating said faith would be a sign of a potentially great cleric. Xun hasn't quite gotten that trick down yet and until he does, arguments with the Simbul don't work because more than anyone else I've encountered here, she will back almost every statement and do a good job of it. When Xun manages to do that or to demonstrate rather than simply affirm that there is merit in his position then his commentary will be given much more credence. Yes strategy, might be able to overcome the mechanical challenges in a contest between Cadderly and one of Mystra's Chosen. I agree with this in theory but Xun needs to quit affirming it and claiming experience that none here can confirm he has without exerting more effort than the data is worth. Re-affirming this point endlessly won't make the case. If Xun would like to stop telling us that it could happen and start showing us HOW it could happen then this debate might go somewhere. Moving on though, you suggest that this argument boils down to wizard vs. cleric. However in doing so, you are skipping other problem which I consider far more relevant than character class. While I'm hesitant to speak for the Simbul (her arguments are the most exhaustive so I'm focusing on her), I suspect that if you proposed to raise Cadderly to Elminster's level and grant him equivalent access to items then her description of the fight will suddenly become a great deal less onesided. If memory serves though, Cadderly is 9 to 12 levels below Elminster and has a preset equipment list though. Vastly greater experience and access to any non-artifact item he wants along with certain distinctly useful traits of the Chosen of Mystra template though grant El a sizeable advantage that has nothing to do with spell list and since Xun did effectively say Cadderly was stronger than of the Chosen that statement can be tested against El or the Simbul. Even if it isn't though, Cadderly ranks (I think, someone else can probably confirm) at level 20. Most known Chosen of Mystra epic with decent resource access. The only Chosen I'm certain is not 2 or more levels above Cadderly is Quilue Veladorn at level 19. Blast, wish there were official stats for her. Quilue is a cleric, comparing stats for her against Cadderly would handle matters much simpler than any argument I could pose. In her absence, I'll fall back to Storm who is not a pure caster. Yes she uses magic but she's no high ranked wizard or sorcerer yet she was one of the examples used. I guess this could expand into arcane vs divine magic but I don't see it as such and while the Simbul has a limited opinion of the cleric spell list I don't think she sees it as a conflict between the two classes either. |
| Stigger02-25-07, 11:06 AM | Interesting... Xun, that's something of a metagaming approach you're taking there. Presumably, the Chosen and Cadderly would try their utmost to prevail in any conflict they had. This is not a question of who is 'controlling' the character, and what tactics they use, it's a question of a man with probably no more than 60 years of experience in life going against a person with at least 700 years of life... the Chosen have probably forgotten more about spell combat tactics than Cadderly has ever learned, hence, he loses barring some gross amount of underestimation on the part of the Chosen. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-25-07, 07:21 PM | Lord as much as I like you I will have to disagree about the Avatar trilogy. I think that was one of the dumbest storylines I have ever read. Since Ao is there, if he wanted his "children" to learn a lesson why not just cut them off from their followers like pinching someones breathing tube until they are on the verge of passing out then either let it go or let them die. Ao should have let their power decrease and decrease to let them know what it is like not to have followers. Let them grow weak to teach them a lesson. Not this turning them into mortals so that real mortals may have the chance to kill them and take over their positions. I see what you are saying. However that was the whole point of the Avatar crisis. The Gods relative power did not depend on the number or devotion of ones worshipers before the crisis. It had more to do with the importance or previlance of their portfolio. They never really explained how divine power worked before the fall. So many of the Gods were cruel and callous, requiring their worshipers to build gaudy temples and gave them little or nothing in return. AO was giving his Gods a metaphysical reality check by making them suffer as their mortal worshipers had suffer. After the crisis AO changed the rules so that the Gods power level depended on the number and faith of ones worshipers. Many Gods found their power reduced after the crisis. Gilgeam found himself reduced to the level of a demipower after the Time of troubles. |
| 42102-25-07, 08:45 PM | Praise the Simbul !! Not the witch-w**** from some backwater eastern country but the gentle poster on those boards. She has a knack for writing well-constructed post backed with hard fact. I might not always agree with her, but her post always worth reading. Not to mention that she save me the trouble to write them myself. :) |
| Agudo Archmage02-25-07, 10:34 PM | MaskedOne .the capacity to share and support ideas in such a way that one's statements can stand up to criticism when advocating said faith would be a sign of a potentially great cleric. Xun hasn't quite gotten that trick down yet Thats why I said I sympathized with his (basic ideas) :D I agree he has failed to offer substance to his ideas But in truth that really isnt the problem Its . Stigger Xun, that's something of a metagaming approach you're taking there Now thats it in a nutshell. Besides the failure to disagree with someone in a respectful manner |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-25-07, 11:44 PM | I told you people how it is done. It depends on the player and the roll of the dice. No matter how much you disagree with that it isn't going to change it. If you believe it's all about stats then go ahead, if thats the way you want to play then fine, but when someone else does something different don't act like your way is the right way. Cause it's not always what you want your way right away. This isn't Buger King. |
| MaskedOne02-25-07, 11:50 PM | MaskedOne Thats why I said I sympathized with his (basic ideas) :D I agree he has failed to offer substance to his ideas But in truth that really isnt the problem To be fair and I won't be often, I can accept a great deal of disrespect toward myself or other posters. I do not claim to be a nice person and I do not demand anyone else be overly courteous in personal interactions. There are organizations, philophies and groups where I will become downright vicious in defense of but disrespect toward me is tolerable as long as 1) it stays within the CoC (I don't particularly enjoy Wiz_O intervention so do not make open, direct character attacks) 2) the disrespectful poster understands that I reserve the right to return the favor as I see fit I am also to a degree willing to argue from a metagaming perspective. Metagaming I don't normally one way or another so it's just a matter of changing how I make a given case. Disrespect, shrug, I try and limit the degree to which I condemn people for exhibiting one of my various character flaws. I just want more capably written arguments. |
| Stigger02-25-07, 11:58 PM | Reflecting on it, I think the essential problem here is that Xun is looking at them as NPC's controlled by a DM and as flawed or as meritful as the person controlling them, and nothing beyond that. The opposition is looking at them as characters, who all thing being equal, will understand the best way to fight themselves given the depth of experience and capability they have. Two very different, and largely mutually exclusive approaches to the subject matter. |
| MaskedOne02-26-07, 12:07 AM | I told you people how it is done. It depends on the player and the roll of the dice. No matter how much you disagree with that it isn't going to change it. If you believe it's all about stats then go ahead, if thats the way you want to play then fine, but when someone else does something different don't act like your way is the right way. Cause it's not always what you want your way right away. This isn't Buger King. I don't believe I've stated yet that its all about stats. In fact, I'm quite certain that I've admitted that a good strategy might overcome the differences in stats. However, the mechanical handicap that Cadderly would be facing against either El or the Simbul is so profoundly immense that it is not funny. A specific strategy of some sort will be needed and if you actually intend to convince anyone other than yourself then I highly advise that you focus less attention repeating generalizations and more on attempting to put together and outlining a strategy that does not require Elminster to roll a 1 in everything and Cadderly to roll a 20 in everything. Otherwise, you will accomplish nothing but getting a headache and irritating the rest of us. |
| MaskedOne02-26-07, 12:15 AM | Reflecting on it, I think the essential problem here is that Xun is looking at them as NPC's controlled by a DM and as flawed or as meritful as the person controlling them, and nothing beyond that. The opposition is looking at them as characters, who all thing being equal, will understand the best way to fight themselves given the depth of experience and capability they have. Two very different, and largely mutually exclusive approaches to the subject matter. I'm content to treat them either way if it allows this debate to progress from the lets repeat generalizations stage to the Entity x can accomplish task z. Let me show you how. Once we move onto the second stage, this actually becomes a discussion that might almost produce something other than an utter lack of patience. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-26-07, 12:48 AM | Cadderly, the Chosen of Deneir Male human (Chosen of Denier) Clr 20; CR 24; Medium-size humanoid (human); HD 20d8+60; hp 150; Init +6; Spd 30 ft.; AC 12, touch 12, flat-footed 10; Atk +21/+16/+11 melee (1d6+8, +2 quarterstaff); or +17/+12/+7 (1d4+4, spindle disk), or +18 (1d4+1/19-20, hand crossbow with +1 crossbow bolts), or +19 ranged (1+2/19-20, +2 hand crossbow); SA advanced turning, brand of Denier, psionics, turn undead 5/day; SQ immunities, languages, shapechange, song of Denier, tome of harmony, altered lifespan, psionics; AL NG; SV Fort +15, Ref +8, Will +19; Str 18, Dex 15, Con 17, Int 18, Wis 20, Cha 15. Height: 5 ft. 9 in. Skills and Feats: Diplomacy +7, Heal +6, Knowledge (architecture and engineering) +22, Knowledge (history) +21, Knowledge (nature) +19, Knowledge (religion) +27, Profession (stoneworking) +12, Ride (horse) +4, Speak Language +3, Spellcraft +20, Wilderness Lore +8; Dodge, Education (Knowledge [history], Knowledge [nature]), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (hand crossbow), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (shuriken), Exotic Weapon Proficiency (repeating crossbow), Improved Initiative, Iron Will, Point Blank Shot. Advanced Turning (Su): If Cadderly makes a melee touch attack with his holy symbol against an undead creature, he can automatically use a turn undead attempt that round against that undead (affecting only that undead and no others nearby). This attempt counts as a use of the character's turn attempts for the day. He gains a +4 sacred bonus to his turning check and turning damage with this attack. Brand of Deneir (Su): By calling upon the holy power of Deneir and pressing his holy symbol to the forehead of an evil creature (a melee touch attack that provokes an attack of opportunity), Cadderly can permanently brand the target with Deneir's symbol. This magical brand cannot be healed, but it can be dispelled. Any good-aligned being that sees the brand immediately knows that the bearer is evil and the viewer's attitude shifts one category toward hostile where appropriate. Spell-like Abilities: Once per day -- antipathy, daze, detect lies, detect thoughts, dominate person, enthrall, mass suggestion, mind blank, Rary's telepathic bond, sending, shield other, suggestion. Caster level 20th; save DC 12 + spell level. Immunities (Ex): Cadderly is immune to disease, level draining, negative levels, and poison. Languages (Su): Upon becoming a Chosen of Deneir, Cadderly immediately gained knowledge Damaran, Dwarven, Elven, and Mulhorandi languages. These languages are lost if Cadderly ever loses his Chosen of Deneir status. Shapechange (Su): Cadderly can change into a large, white-furred, flying squirrel. There is no limit to the amount of time that can be spent in this form, nor to the number of uses per day. Cadderly gains low-light vision, a climb speed of 30 feet, a +8 bonus on Balance checks, and can fall safely up to 50 feet as long as he is not helpless. (He needs to be able to take physical actions to orient his wing-flaps and fall.) Song of Deneir (Su): Cadderly does not need to prepare his clerical spells. Instead, he mentally reviews a unique magical song called the Song of Deneir, which then places the spell in his mind so that he can immediately cast it. This means that casting a spell in this manner is always at least a full round action. (If it's less than a full round, it becomes a full round much like a sorcerer casting metamagicked spells. If it's already a full round or longer, the casting time is unchanged.) Cadderly may prepare clerical spells normally. He is still nominally limited to the number of spells per day that he can cast as determined by Table 3-6: The Cleric in the Player's Handbook. He can cast his normal number of spells per day, but each spell cast beyond this limit risks a powerful headache that leaves him dazed for 1 hour and unable to cast spells above 4th level for a number of weeks equal to the level of the spell that caused the headache. He can avoid the headache by making a Constitution check (DC 18 + spell level + number of spells beyond the limit he has already cast in the past 24 hours). The Tome of Universal Harmony: Cadderly is the bearer of the Tome of Universal Harmony, which is the holiest of books of Deneir's faith and understandable only by his Chosen. The pages of the book are filled with mysterious runes, and over time the Chosen of Deneir can determine the pattern within the text -- it depicts the Song of Deneir, which is what gives Cadderly his unusual spellcasting ability. The book is handed from one Chosen of Deneir to the next when the old Chosen of Deneir realizes that his time of death is approaching. Any person other than a Chosen of Deneir who tries to read the book must make a Fortitude save (DC 25) or be knocked unconscious for one hour. While the following abilities are not benefit to all Chosen of Deneir, the following abilities are granted to Cadderly, by Deneir, so that he can finish his task; the rebuilding of the Edificant Library. Altered Lifespan: Every year that Cadderly spends working on the Edificant Library seems to age him five years. Though he is effectively immortal agewise, so long as he is working on the Library, by the time he is done, he may be too old to survive. Also, this task consumes all of Cadderly's time, and he will not leave the Library. Psionics: Cadderly has been granted nearly infinite power of the mind, even greater, perhaps, then the world's most powerful psions. Cadderly can use any psionic powers he chooses, and effectively knows all of them. The only limits he possesses on them is a lack of feats to alter them (he cannot ever gain any psionic feats), and having only so many power points. Cadderly has 100 power points for his powers. Deity: Deneir. Domains: Good (cast good spells at +1 caster level), Knowledge (cast divinations at +1 caster level). Possessions: +2 quarterstaff, +2 blowgun, hand crossbow, spindle disk, drow sleep poison (1 dose), +1 hand crossbow bolts (each with a dose of oil of force bursts in a tiny vial which shatters if the bolt hits) (16) Spindle Disk: A spindle disk is a tiny exotic melee weapon. The fist-sized sharpened crystal disk has a seam around the edge and a 3-foot cord wrapped into the seam. It is used like a yo-yo; the wielder spins the disk outward at a target, and, if it misses, it automatically winds itself up again (it can be used to make iterative attacks). If the disk hits a target, it must be wound manually (a move-equivalent action) before it can be used to attack again. A spindle disk is technically a thrown item and uses the wielder's Dexterity bonus instead of Strength for the attack roll, although it does not provoke an attack of opportunity when used. The wielder's Strength bonus applies to damage. Cost 5 gp; damage 1d4, critical x2, weight 3 lb., type bludgeoning. Blowgun: A blowgun is usually a hollow wooden tube about 3 feet long, but some versions are longer. A dart is inserted into one end of the tube, and a quick strong breath hurls it out of the tube at a target. Because of their low damage, blowgun darts are usually poisoned. Cost: 1 gp, damage 1, critical x2, range increment 30 feet, weight 3 lb., type piercing. Darts (10): cost 1 sp, weight -- (10 sets of 10 darts weigh 1 lb.). Oil of Force Bursts: The oil of force bursts is used to coat a single melee weapon or up to 10 small projectiles (shuriken, arrows, bolts, and so on). When the weapon strikes an object, the oil deals an additional +1d6 points of force damage. The oil's potency wears off after 1 minute. Because the coated weapon must hit a creature to cause the oil to activate, an incorporeal creature that was missed because of its incorporeal miss chance does not suffer force damage from the oil. (In other words, the weapon has to successfully hit an incorporeal creature in order to trigger the oil's effects.) Coating a weapon or 10 small projectiles is a standard action. Caster Level: 10th; Prerequisites: Brew Potion, spiritual weapon; Market Price: 1,000 gp. Table 1-1: Cadderly's Weapons Weapon Cost Damage Critical Range Increment Weight Type Spindle Disk 5 gp 1d4 x2 -- 3 lbs Bludgeoning Blowgun 1 gp 1 x2 30 ft 3 lbs Piercing Darts, blowgun (10) 1 sp -- -- -- 1 lb -- Chosen of Deneir The Chosen of Deneir are scholars and researchers, and they are in love with the study of art, writing, and literature. Hand-picked by the god of glyphs and literature, the Chosen are reclusive, preferring the world of books and lore to interacting with people. When they encounter others with the same interests as their own, they become animated, and even argumentative, but tend toward pacifism even in the face of great danger. The Chosen of Deneir appear no different than other creatures of their type. Creating a Chosen of Deneir Chosen of Deneir is a template that can be added to any humanoid creature (referred to hereafter as the "character") that has at least one level of the cleric class and has chosen Deneir as his deity. A Chosen of Deneir uses all of the character's statistics and special abilities except as noted here. A Chosen of Deneir has its power only at the will of Deneir; should he decide to remove Chosen of Deneir status from the character, he reverts to his original abilities. Normally there is only one Chosen of Deneir at a time, and when the current one grows old, he finds a student to whom he can pass the mantle of duty. Special Attacks: A Chosen of Deneir retains all of the special attacks of the character and also gains the following. Advanced Turning (Su): If the Chosen of Deneir makes a melee touch attack with his holy symbol against an undead creature, he can automatically use a turn undead attempt that round against that undead (affecting only that undead and no others nearby). This attempt counts as a use of the character's turn attempts for the day. He gains a +4 sacred bonus to his turning check and turning damage with this attack. Brand of Deneir (Su): By calling upon the holy power of Deneir and pressing his holy symbol to the forehead of an evil creature (a melee touch attack that provokes an attack of opportunity), the Chosen of Deneir can permanently brand the target with Deneir's symbol. This magical brand cannot be healed, but it can be dispelled. Any good-aligned person that sees the brand immediately knows that the bearer is evil and the viewer's attitude shifts one category toward hostile where appropriate. Spell-like Abilities: The Chosen of Deneir has access to the following spell-like abilities, which function at a caster level equal to the Chosen of Deneir's character level. These are used 1/day: antipathy, daze, detect lies, detect thoughts, dominate person, enthrall, mass suggestion, mind blank, Rary's telepathic bond, sending, shield other, suggestion. Special Qualities: A Chosen of Deneir retains all of the special qualities of the character and also gains the following. Song of Deneir (Su): The Chosen of Deneir does not need to prepare his clerical spells. Instead, he mentally reviews a unique magical song called the Song of Deneir, which then places the spell in his mind so that he can immediately cast it. This means that casting a spell in this manner is always at least a full round action. (If it's less than a full round, it becomes a full round much like a sorcerer casting metamagicked spells. If it's already a full round or longer, the casting time is unchanged.) The Chosen of Deneir may prepare clerical spells normally. He is still nominally limited to the number of spells per day that he can cast as determined by Table 3-6: The Cleric in the Player's Handbook. He can cast his normal number of spells per day, but each spell cast beyond this limit risks a powerful headache that leaves him dazed for 1 hour and unable to cast spells above 4th level for a number of weeks equal to the level of the spell that caused the headache. He can avoid the headache by making a Constitution check (DC 18 + spell level + number of spells beyond the limit he has already cast in the past 24 hours). The Tome of Universal Harmony: The Chosen of Deneir is the bearer of The Tome of Universal Harmony, which is the holiest of books of Deneir's faith and understandable only by his Chosen. The pages of the book are filled with mysterious runes, and over time the Chosen of Deneir can determine the pattern within the text -- it depicts the Song of Deneir, which is what gives the Chosen his unusual spellcasting ability. The book is handed from one Chosen of Deneir to the next when the old Chosen of Deneir realizes that his time of death is approaching. Any person other than a Chosen of Deneir who tries to read the book must make a Fortitude save (DC 25) or be knocked unconscious for one hour. Immunities (Ex): The Chosen of Deneir is immune to disease, level draining, negative levels, and poison. Shapechange (Su): The Chosen of Deneir can change into a single animal form partially. This is similar to a lycanthrope's hybrid form, and it can be only an animal that the Chosen of Deneir has developed an affinity for over time. There is no limit to the amount of time that can be spent in this form, nor to the number of uses per day. The Chosen of Deneir gains the animal's feats, extraordinary abilities, and its racial skill bonuses when in hybrid form. Languages (Su): Upon becoming a Chosen of Deneir, the character immediately gains knowledge of a number of languages equal to his Intelligence modifier. These languages are lost if the character ever loses his Chosen of Deneir status. Saves: Same as the character. Abilities: Increase from the base creature as follows: +2 Constitution, +2 Intelligence, +2 Wisdom. Skills: Same as the character. All Knowledge skills are class skills for the Chosen of Deneir. Feats: Same as the character. Climate/Terrain: Same as the character. Organization: Same as the character. Challenge Rating: Same as the character +4. Alignment: Same as the character. Treasure: Same as the character. Advancement: Same as the character. I personally don't have Cadderly's stats except from 2nd edition but this is what I found from the net. Ok as with casting his spells he basically loses his move action like a Sorcerer casting meta-magic. Well from the looks of it Cadderly has psionics which is nifty. I don't know if this is true, but if it is then that opens up a whole can of worms. If these are his true stats there is a lot I can do with this character. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-26-07, 12:54 AM | I don't believe I've stated yet that its all about stats. In fact, I'm quite certain that I've admitted that a good strategy might overcome the differences in stats. However, the mechanical handicap that Cadderly would be facing against either El or the Simbul is so profoundly immense that it is not funny. A specific strategy of some sort will be needed and if you actually intend to convince anyone other than yourself then I highly advise that you focus less attention repeating generalizations and more on attempting to put together and outlining a strategy that does not require Elminster to roll a 1 in everything and Cadderly to roll a 20 in everything. Otherwise, you will accomplish nothing but getting a headache and irritating the rest of us. What mechanical handicap? there is no having to roll ones and 20's when dealing with Cadderly. You really need to open your eyes, look past the Chosen even though they are apparently your heroes and see what can really happen. The Chosen are not the almighty can't be beaten. I don't use the novels because in a novel anything can go according to the author. In stat mode it's just the mind of the player and the roll of the dice. |
| Lord Karsus02-26-07, 12:56 AM | I told you people how it is done. It depends on the player and the roll of the dice. -You do realize we are all discussing the characters of Cadderly, Elminster, the Simbul, and so on, right? We're not talking about D&D. We're talking about Realmslore. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-26-07, 01:12 AM | -You do realize we are all discussing the characters of Cadderly, Elminster, the Simbul, and so on, right? We're not talking about D&D. We're talking about Realmslore. I am not using character. I am using stats, just using character anything can go. |
| Lord Karsus02-26-07, 01:23 AM | I am not using character. I am using stats, just using character anything can go. -D&D stats and what goes on in the Realms usually complement each other. But, then we get cases such as Drizzt, who statitically is only 16th level. Yet, he has tackled plenty of things that a character higher than 16th level should be tackling. In our discussions, we are talking about the actual characters more, and less about their stats. I know I was, anyway. |
| Zevox02-26-07, 02:05 AM | Well from the looks of it Cadderly has psionics which is nifty. I don't know if this is true, but if it is then that opens up a whole can of worms. If you compare his write-up to that of the template, I think its fairly obvious that that is a misprint for the spell-like abilities the template is supposed to give. Zevox |
| Stigger02-26-07, 02:40 AM | If you're just using stats, I'm fairly certain the situation got worse for Cadderly... Simbul's arguments were pretty hard, if not nigh-impossible to counter just going off mechanics, regardless of the tactics used. Going by character it gets even worse. How much worse can you get if your base 9th level spell DC's are essentially automatically saved against by your opponent? Sure you can amp up that DC a bit, but not by enough to really affect the essential conclusion that virtually none of Cadderly's spells are gonna land. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-26-07, 07:33 AM | What mechanical handicap? there is no having to roll ones and 20's when dealing with Cadderly. You really need to open your eyes, look past the Chosen even though they are apparently your heroes and see what can really happen. The Chosen are not the almighty can't be beaten. I don't use the novels because in a novel anything can go according to the author. In stat mode it's just the mind of the player and the roll of the dice. By the gods man. Take your own advice. I know stats once again you don't read. But the Simbul has yet to show me anything that says the Chosen can kill Cadderly. But I did. (At this point I must note you said "ready himself", I guess that can be prepatory casting. In that case I get no fun, cause El would just cut Cad's head of with a sword inside an antimagic shell, so lets go with no prep.) El's init= +10. Yours?(+6) Time Stop.....1.....2.....3......May I have three reflex saves at a DC of 32? Oh..cant make those? Well, lets see, that enhanced maximized acidball(8th) did 20d6 so thats 120, that enhanced maximized soniball(8th) did 20d6 so thats 120, and that enhanced maximized electroball(8th) did 20d6 so thats 120. Hm, you take 360HPs. Ahh, what a pretty book, lets just wipe off these bits of robe.. Enough enough enough. Please guys. Enough.:rolleyes: |
| Bonzai02-26-07, 11:02 AM | Wow, since when did Cadderly take up using Psionics? I don't remember that from the web write up at all.... Or the Novels. |
| Zevox02-26-07, 11:11 AM | Wow, since when did Cadderly take up using Psionics? I don't remember that from the web write up at all.... Or the Novels. Like I said, if you compare his write-up with the Chosen template he has, it looks like that is just a misprint for the spell-like abilities he gets as a Chosen of Deneir. Zevox |
| ShadezofDis02-26-07, 11:13 AM | What mechanical handicap? there is no having to roll ones and 20's when dealing with Cadderly. You really need to open your eyes, look past the Chosen even though they are apparently your heroes and see what can really happen. The Chosen are not the almighty can't be beaten. I don't use the novels because in a novel anything can go according to the author. In stat mode it's just the mind of the player and the roll of the dice. BACK UP YOUR FRIGGIN STATEMENT. Saying something is so does not make it so (you should take your own advice in this regard) Simbul wrote out an "encounter" between these two characters and showed you EXACTLY how difficult it would be for Cadderly to take down El. You, on the other hand, have just said "that doesn't have to be the case" In order to recieve a little respect you should go ahead and write out HOW you think Cadderly could take down El (or any other chosen, choose the least of them for all we care but DO SOMETHING) You've been pwnt son, take it like a man and let it be a lesson in becoming a better poster. |
| Lord Karsus02-26-07, 12:31 PM | Wow, since when did Cadderly take up using Psionics? I don't remember that from the web write up at all.... Or the Novels. -If you do a search for 'Chosen of Denier', the WotC version has disappeared (it's been archived), but a fan-made version exists, and it is usually on the first or second page of results. That version follows very closely the WotC Template of the Chosen of Denier, but the creator arbitrarily added in Psionics. I suppose it's representative of Cadderly having his "mind opened", or something like that. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-26-07, 04:32 PM | Isnt this kind of a silly Argument? I mean El could probably kill an Avatar of Denier let alone his silly chosen. Just on mans opinion. Take it or leave it. |
| Lord Karsus02-26-07, 05:32 PM | Isnt this kind of a silly Argument? I mean El could probably kill an Avatar of Denier let alone his silly chosen. Just on mans opinion. Take it or leave it. -Eh, Elminster isn't that powerful. -LLKN, the discussion has passed beyond the realm of just opinion and fact, and all that, if you understand what I mean. Now, the argument is on posting manners, evidence, and a whole slew of other things. I'll make the popcorn. Let's just sit back and see what happens... |
| Stigger02-26-07, 09:11 PM | Think you have a definite point there LK. |
| Karsus the Mad02-26-07, 10:11 PM | -Eh, Elminster isn't that powerful. -LLKN, the discussion has passed beyond the realm of just opinion and fact, and all that, if you understand what I mean. Now, the argument is on posting manners, evidence, and a whole slew of other things. I'll make the popcorn. Let's just sit back and see what happens... I have the beer, for those of 21 years or older (or whatever the legal age in your country; I'm not picky) and I have several liters of coke, pepsi, or sprite. I'll drag all of it to the impromptu theatre. LK, get up from the bean bag and share the couch, if you don't mind. I'll be in the kitchen whipping up some snacks. It's tortilla night! Hands off Stigger, those are for the guests.... LLKN, since this is your first, just sit right back and enjoy the show. We'll make sure you're comfy and well fed. These previews are really dragging...when's the main showing LK? |
| BrennonGoldeye02-26-07, 10:13 PM | -Eh, Elminster isn't that powerful. -LLKN, the discussion has passed beyond the realm of just opinion and fact, and all that, if you understand what I mean. Now, the argument is on posting manners, evidence, and a whole slew of other things. I'll make the popcorn. Let's just sit back and see what happens... Yeah! Popcorn...munch..munch..mumumch.... Needs butter..rumaging through fridge.... Ew:yuck:. LK, that burrito is still in here ,and I think it's eating your bagles. |
| Alediran02-26-07, 10:27 PM | These previews are really dragging...when's the main showing LK? After the fat lady sings. |
| Lord Karsus02-26-07, 11:16 PM | These previews are really dragging...when's the main showing LK? -Ah, give it a couple of more posts, and let's see what happens... Ew:yuck:. LK, that burrito is still in here ,and I think it's eating your bagles. -Blast! I thought I disintigrated it the other day...Hmm, it must have regeneration powers, or something. I know. I'm going to Plane Shift it to Fermotta, Finder's Realm. He's into all that rot and decay stuff. Let's see what he thinks of this baby! :: Plane Shifts mutant burrito :: |
| MaskedOne02-27-07, 12:00 AM | The main show is waiting on Xun I think. I guess I could start it but that would require thought and research on my part. Not to mention, iniative. Now if there's any ginger ale not affected by the other items stored in a Karsi frig, I'd appreciate some. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-27-07, 12:22 AM | Ok I will make this rather simple and quick. For the Chosen like Storm and Dove who rely on combat. The 9th level spell End of Strife will take care of them. Lets say Cadderly prays using Incense of Meditation where everything is maximized. Ok anyone who attacks, melee, spell, whatever, the caster will take an automatic no save 120 points of damage per attempt to attack. A fighter has 4 attacks he takes them all thats an automatic 480 points of damage this is within 80ft, so it could be used against anyone. Ok now, another tactic would be to start out by spending 1000xp cast "Gate" and call forth a 40HD Solar. Cadderly's level is 20 and you can control a creature who's hit dice doesn't exceed double your caster level. The solar appears instantly and can attack. This would be a huge Solar with higher stats and a SR of at least 52. They carry a bow that fires arrows of slaying, it has a dancing greatsword that can hit you of it's own accord while the solar is acting. A solar has spell-like and clerical spells at it's disposal. Now while this is going on Cadderly can then cast Shield of the Archons which will protect him from all spells and spell-like abilities. With the greatsword in your face everytime you cast a spell make a concentration check unless you want to cast on the defensive. Cadderly can rain down with Firestorms, Blade barriers or whatever, (all at maximum damage), before Cadderly left he placed a Word of Recall on himself. He could summon an Elemental Monilith, the Solar can use Summon Monster VII at will or have Summon Monster XI memorized. The Solar can burn 1000xp open up a gate and summon an (34 HD Solar if his cleric level remains at 17 even though he has 18 more HD than the usual HD solar) or whatever he wants to engage in the fight. Read the Gate spell if some of you don't believe me. Cadderly can proceed to buff himself up more, or attack, the 40 HD Solar can cast Rightous Might and become Colossal, then cast Divine Power to add to his fighting ability. I have a lot more to go but I figured i would post this little bit. |
| MaskedOne02-27-07, 12:31 AM | FINALLY, we have battle tactics to analyze. LET THE GAMES BEGIN! Now what book is End of Strife in? I want to read this spell before commenting on how useful it is. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-27-07, 12:34 AM | FINALLY, we have battle tactics to analyze. LET THE GAMES BEGIN! Now what book is End of Strife in? I want to read this spell before commenting on how useful it is. It is in the Book of Exalted Deeds. The caster can set the damage for lethal or nonlethal. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-27-07, 12:57 AM | This movie sucks! The main character is so one dimensional. He tries to min and max everything. Somebody pass me a mountain dew and those Doritos:) |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-27-07, 01:03 AM | This movie sucks! The main character is so one dimensional. He tries to min and max everything. Somebody pass me a mountain dew and those Doritos:) Ha ha whatever works though :D |
| MaskedOne02-27-07, 01:15 AM | Hmm, an impressive little trick it is too. Point of note, any Chosen who regularly uses Mind Blank will ignore this spell because it is a mind affecting compulsion and thereby rendered useless. I'm not entirely certain it does anything about hostile spell use but all in all it is impressive at close range provided that you actually get the spell into play. There is a problem for you though even if you try it on Storm rather than one of the major casters. There is one wish remaining in Storm's luckblade. Enough to mimic a mindblank and commence with the slicing. Shrug that or she just use anti-magic but I hate that trick. Someone else can handle the rest for tonight. I have other things that need doing and an earlier day than normal tomorrow. Be back to whatever's left later. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-27-07, 01:16 AM | -Eh, Elminster isn't that powerful. -LLKN, the discussion has passed beyond the realm of just opinion and fact, and all that, if you understand what I mean. Now, the argument is on posting manners, evidence, and a whole slew of other things. I'll make the popcorn. Let's just sit back and see what happens... Hey given preparation time and the right battle field I think El could off an Avatar of Denier! I mean if we are going to make preposterous statements like saying Cadderly can kill Elminster why not! Maybe Karsus could take out AO if he had the time and inclination. I mean he is only an Over-deity. Im sure someone some where gave him stats for some silly reason. Do you have any cheese dip? Jalapeńo? |
| Stigger02-27-07, 01:31 AM | Only problem I see with End of Strife is that affected beings know it's been cast and what the consequences are going to be for attacking, so no one in their right mind would attack under those circumstances... depending on the initiative sequence. Honestly though, it would seriously go against his alignment and character to use it as weapon, since it's meant to do precisely what its name says, and would likely be interpreted as an invitation to parley. But, as a tactical spell and not taking that stuff into account, it's a pretty solid choice to use. The Solar thing is pretty nasty too... except I can't see why a solar would actually attack a Chosen unless it was attacked first, since most of said Chosen are good aligned, excepting the Simbul of course, and even then I can't see it being all that aggressive since none of them are overtly evil and would likely resort to non-lethal attacks unless given no option... something I can't see the Chosen ever really allowing. The monolith, now that's a good idea indeed. But ultimately, while the opening tactics are sound from a purely combat point of view, they don't make any sense from the context of alignment and established character, something I've mentioned before. Why would anyone of a good alignment ever abuse a spell like End of Strife without using it to parley first, to see if the situation could be resolved without violence? Why would they use Celestials to attack other good aligned beings? Why would the Celestials not try to mediate the dispute in favor of resorting to lethal violence immediately? Why would they be fighting in the first place? Which is ultimately why I'm going to be a silent observer at this point... |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-27-07, 01:39 AM | Why do Solars not have anything better to do besides run to Cadderlys beck and call?!? Solars can detect alignment they would not attack EL or any of the Chosen for that matter. SO wasted summing and then El sticks a Meteor storm up his butt! Silliness I tell you! Wow! Jalapeńos give me gas. |
| MaskedOne02-27-07, 01:49 AM | Side note that I have just enough time for. Arrows of Slaying while deadly can be overcome by an adequate Fort. Save and most Chosen will make the save. Also most Chosen can cast defensive just fine so if you use Solar summoning as an opening gambit against El or the Simbul then they promptly arrange one of the previously described one round kills on Cadderly and leave. Worst case the Solar sticks around 2 minutes. If it ressurects Cadderly then they drop in just long enough to kill him again but there's no guarantee a Solar will bother to offer willing aid to a summoner that sent it against enemies that aren't evil and a dead Cadderly can't command it. I should refine this there are various weak points but I really do have to be handling other matters. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek02-27-07, 02:07 AM | Side note that I have just enough time for. Arrows of Slaying while deadly can be overcome by an adequate Fort. Save and most Chosen will make the save. Also most Chosen can cast defensive just fine so if you use Solar summoning as an opening gambit against El or the Simbul then they promptly arrange one of the previously described one round kills on Cadderly and leave. Worst case the Solar sticks around 2 minutes. If it ressurects Cadderly then they drop in just long enough to kill him again but there's no guarantee a Solar will bother to offer willing aid to a summoner that sent it against enemies that aren't evil and a dead Cadderly can't command it. I should refine this there are various weak points but I really do have to be handling other matters. Not just the slaying part, there are the dancing greatswords and just the pure damage from the arrows. Hey a quick Shield Other by the Solar can help out with damage. You won't get near Cadderly without that Solar in your face. How are you going to kill Cadderly, he has Shield of Archon up. This blocks all spells and spell-like abilities? Lord a Solar will fight other beings, with the Gate spell whatever you summon is 100% loyal to you. |
| Stigger02-27-07, 02:22 AM | Despite my desire to be silent otherwise... you don't have to attack him directly. It helps with spells that take effect around you with a +4 save bonus, but only completely blocks spells that are directly targetted at you, and even then only once per round, which can be solved by using a quickened spell and then a regularly cast spell fairly directly. It's not that hard to bypass really if you're clever about it. As to the solar, it might be loyal, but it won't act contrary to its nature or violate its alignment without a serious consequence to the caster. To demand that a Solar kill a good aligned being without trying to resolve the matter peacefully would certainly be an evil act in my book, and that would pretty much spell the end of the fight since it would be a gross violation of Deneirs ethos and would likely result in Cadderly being stripped of his cleric status, as well as the Chosen status, almost immediately. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-27-07, 02:44 AM | Yeah the whole Solar argument is a lost cause. They simply wouldnt obey the command regardless of their loyalty being 100%. Remember a Solar is almost as powerful as a Demigod. If Cadderly forced them to act contrary to their nature which is what youre saying Cadderly is planning on doing! The Solar will simply use its wish ability or any of its other 100 odd abilities to break the summons and leave! You are going to have to find something better then the old I have 2 Solar body guards trick! It doesnt make sense.:rolleyes: |
| ShadezofDis02-27-07, 08:51 AM | Not just the slaying part, there are the dancing greatswords and just the pure damage from the arrows. Hey a quick Shield Other by the Solar can help out with damage. You won't get near Cadderly without that Solar in your face. How are you going to kill Cadderly, he has Shield of Archon up. This blocks all spells and spell-like abilities? Lord a Solar will fight other beings, with the Gate spell whatever you summon is 100% loyal to you. While you are making an effort, and that's awesome, you are still ignoring that by the time Caderly has cast that gate, or the . . . oh, I forget, the little "you can't hurt me" doohicky spell, by the time either of those are cast Caderly is already dead, likely many times over. Explain how Caderly doesn't die in the first round, before his initiative. If you cannot do this without prep time then the Chosen gets the same amount of prep time. PS. Yes, Caderly vs Storm or Dove is a better fight than Caderly vs El, Simbul, and other main casters. |
| ShadezofDis02-27-07, 08:54 AM | Yeah the whole Solar argument is a lost cause. They simply wouldnt obey the command regardless of their loyalty being 100%. Remember a Solar is almost as powerful as a Demigod. If Cadderly forced them to act contrary to their nature which is what youre saying Cadderly is planning on doing! The Solar will simply use its wish ability or any of its other 100 odd abilities to break the summons and leave! You are going to have to find something better then the old I have 2 Solar body guards trick! It doesnt make sense.:rolleyes: We are suspending disbelief in the hopes of getting somewhere. I do agree with you, Solars have better things to do than get involved in a random fight, so do Caderly and the Chosen, but Xun stated that "Caderly can beat any Chosen" and people called him out on it. Thus, we suspend disbelief for a time while strats are picked out, once the strats are picked out then we can go "Hmmm. . . that would work mechanically but Solar's just wouldn't do that, perhaps if you gated in a Devil or 4" |
| Alediran02-27-07, 12:06 PM | And even with a Solar or devil or whatever he summons, arcane casters have Banishmet, a simple spell to send creature back to their planes. |
| ShadezofDis02-27-07, 12:19 PM | And even with a Solar or devil or whatever he summons, arcane casters have Banishmet, a simple spell to send creature back to their planes. And the ability to summon their own little friends. :) But that still doesn't solve the "Caderly is dead before he can take a single action" problem. |
| MaskedOne02-27-07, 01:51 PM | Not just the slaying part, there are the dancing greatswords and just the pure damage from the arrows. Hey a quick Shield Other by the Solar can help out with damage. You won't get near Cadderly without that Solar in your face. How are you going to kill Cadderly, he has Shield of Archon up. This blocks all spells and spell-like abilities? Lord a Solar will fight other beings, with the Gate spell whatever you summon is 100% loyal to you. Those greatswords deal 3d6 + 5 + (Solar's strength mod and any other factors) The Solar will have to actually close in which means no full attack. Barring a critical hit, the Solar depending on how much meaner than the normal variety it is might get in 50 points at which point there is a vanishingly small chance that one of the Chosen will fail the DC 15 Fort save by rolling a 1. After which time stop comes out if you are facing one of the principle casters. They move 30 feet from the Solar and start setting up the spells they need to insure Cadderly stops breathing once Time Stop ends. When one has over 200 hp, they can take one or two hits from a Solar most of the time. Shield of the Archons might if they use targeted spells stop 1 and only attack, the others all hitting in the same round will ignore it. Some of the other posters can tell you precisely how much good that will do. While I'm on Shield of the Archons, you are aware that the only way Cadderly is getting it in play is with Miracle right. Yes, it is a clerical spell within his range but it has a very special component that Song of Denier does not mimic. Namely, the caster must have the Archon subtype. Cadderly does not have that subtype and no metamagic feat or item I'm aware of will mimic it. So if Cadderly wants the Shield of Archons he's paying 5000XP and the player is praying very, very hard that the DM does not treat Subtype components the same as material components of more than 100 gp value. Cadderly's official stats (http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_deneir) slightly different the Stats Xun found. Mainly no psionics. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-27-07, 03:12 PM | I still think that you should start over. Solars simply wouldnt do any of this. It doesnt make sense. Even if he had Solars I still think Cadderly is going down. This movie is long and boring. |
| ShadezofDis02-27-07, 03:23 PM | I still think that you should start over. Solars simply wouldnt do any of this. It doesnt make sense. Even if he had Solars I still think Cadderly is going down. This movie is long and boring. Well, it's sort of besides the point, the Solar that is, as there's still no chance that Caderly would get the spell off before one of the caster chosen ko'd him. Against Storm or Dove or another noncaster (note: caster = principle caster class, not someone who can cast *g*) then that might be a different story. Like I said though, suspending disbelief. PS. You don't HAVE to watch said movie, further, you could keep such comments to yourself. |
| Stigger02-27-07, 04:45 PM | So what's to stop El from gating in a 58HD Solar then? ;) |
| BrennonGoldeye02-27-07, 05:23 PM | So what's to stop El from gating in a 58HD Solar then? ;) Summoning tax.;) |
| Lord Karsus02-27-07, 06:26 PM | So what's to stop El from gating in a 58HD Solar then? ;) -Heh. I misread that, and for a second, I thought you said, "What's to stop El from dating the 58HD solar, then?" It'd be very much in character, too! :D |
| MaskedOne02-27-07, 07:02 PM | Well, it's sort of besides the point, the Solar that is, as there's still no chance that Caderly would get the spell off before one of the caster chosen ko'd him. Against Storm or Dove or another noncaster (note: caster = principle caster class, not someone who can cast *g*) then that might be a different story. Like I said though, suspending disbelief. PS. You don't HAVE to watch said movie, further, you could keep such comments to yourself. I'm pretty much ceding iniative for the moment. If something sufficiently interesting that it might actually work comes along then minor details like initiative can be worked. The problems of initiative have been stated often enough. I don't feel any great need to harp on that point, yet. I'll get back to it eventually along with working out counters for these tricks that don't rely on the use of primary arcane casters. |
| GothicDan02-28-07, 12:12 AM | Hopefully none of the Chosen cast Foresight recently. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-28-07, 12:41 AM | Well, it's sort of besides the point, the Solar that is, as there's still no chance that Caderly would get the spell off before one of the caster chosen ko'd him. Against Storm or Dove or another noncaster (note: caster = principle caster class, not someone who can cast *g*) then that might be a different story. Like I said though, suspending disbelief. PS. You don't HAVE to watch said movie, further, you could keep such comments to yourself. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzz:confused: Anything happen? No ok. ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZzzzz zzzzzz:bored: |
| BrennonGoldeye02-28-07, 09:12 AM | ZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzz zzzzzzzzzzzzz:confused: Anything happen? No ok. ZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzZZZZZZZZZZzzzz zzzzzz:bored: Yes... Go to sleep..... |
| Lord Karsus02-28-07, 02:53 PM | -Been flipping through that spellbook I gave you, eh? ;) |
| BrennonGoldeye02-28-07, 03:29 PM | -Been flipping through that spellbook I gave you, eh?;) Quite an amazing read actually. I had no idea you could do that sort of thing with elementals. By the way, can I have that power stone back. It's holding a power slot after all.:) |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-28-07, 03:31 PM | The argument on this page has become a sentient spell of sleep and boredom!!!! :OMG! Run for your lives!:OMG! |
| BrennonGoldeye02-28-07, 03:33 PM | Yes....Run.... |
| Lord Karsus02-28-07, 03:39 PM | Yes....Run.... -You are progressing quite nicely! ;) |
| ShadezofDis02-28-07, 03:41 PM | -You are progressing quite nicely! ;) However, I think that Bren is more concerned with LLKN's progression. ;D I need to get motivated though, Bren's starting to outpace me with his abilities, soon the Hands of Karsus shall be imbalanced! |
| BrennonGoldeye02-28-07, 03:46 PM | However, I think that Bren is more concerned with LLKN's progression. ;D I need to get motivated though, Bren's starting to outpace me with his abilities, soon the Hands of Karsus shall be imbalanced! Hey there are six hands, not counting transmu- Excuse me for just a sec Dis- I said run-Anyway-tation. We complement each other. :) |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-28-07, 03:50 PM | Bren will progress further when that accursed belt of femininity/masculinity is removed. :invasion: |
| BrennonGoldeye02-28-07, 04:09 PM | Been to the future....ehh, not so much. :coolcthul LK, is there a mass version to that spell? |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron02-28-07, 06:01 PM | Are you not a chic in the future?:P |
| Lord Karsus02-28-07, 06:23 PM | I need to get motivated though, Bren's starting to outpace me with his abilities, soon the Hands of Karsus shall be imbalanced! -You shall be further empowered if you let others know that you are one of the Hands of Karsus in your Sig. You gain a Caster Level. It's like the SAT- just writing your name gives you points! ;) LK, is there a mass version to that spell? -No, but if you flip to Pg. 42, there is a Disintigration spell you might want to memorize and test out... |
| Karsus the Mad02-28-07, 07:43 PM | -You shall be further empowered if you let others know that you are one of the Hands of Karsus in your Sig. You gain a Caster Level. It's like the SAT- just writing your name gives you points! And a +1 to the DC for all spells...don't try and hold back any benefits LK. They work hard. The least we can do is take care of them. Of course, they need to put the identification in their signature, otherwise there's no way in telling if they truly have joined. |
| BrennonGoldeye02-28-07, 08:36 PM | -No, but if you flip to Pg. 42, there is a Disintigration spell you might want to memorize and test out... Oh, I'm sorry got caught up on the seeing spell on page 37.:bigeyes: Hey, anybody else notice the multitude of tiny sparkly bits'o'foil on LLKN?:detect: |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron03-01-07, 12:48 AM | Oh, I'm sorry got caught up on the seeing spell on page 37.:bigeyes: Hey, anybody else notice the multitude of tiny sparkly bits'o'foil on LLKN?:detect: No tiny sparkles on me. I do have some bat guano with your name on it!:mage: |
| Lord Karsus03-01-07, 09:18 AM | And a +1 to the DC for all spells...don't try and hold back any benefits LK. They work hard. The least we can do is take care of them. Of course, they need to put the identification in their signature, otherwise there's no way in telling if they truly have joined. -I was only going to mention that if they swore not to join the union...Oh well, I guess the jig is up...:rolleyes: Hey, anybody else notice the multitude of tiny sparkly bits'o'foil on LLKN?:detect: -Hmm...What are they? |
| BrennonGoldeye03-02-07, 07:21 AM | -Hmm...What are they? Oh, whats that stuff they throw at parties and you can never get out of your laundry, argh, it's on the tip of my toungue..... |
| Karsus the Mad03-02-07, 10:16 AM | Oh, whats that stuff they throw at parties and you can never get out of your laundry, argh, it's on the tip of my toungue..... Vomit? Other...bodily fluids? Confetti? |
| Stigger03-02-07, 10:27 AM | Glitter maybe... have a devil of a time getting that out of stuff, and my wife just adores it's abundance. |
| Lord Karsus03-02-07, 10:50 AM | Vomit? Other...bodily fluids? -What kinds of parties do you go to!? |
| MarkusTay6303-02-07, 05:13 PM | Actaually, I think this thread has become a private Karsii affair. :rolleyes: Hey there are six hands, not counting transmu- Excuse me for just a sec Dis- I said run-Anyway-tation. We complement each other. :)So, the amalgam-Karsis is a six-armed monstrosity? ;) Sounds to me like you guys are worshipping Kali, not Karsus. :coolcthul |
| Red_Wizard03-02-07, 06:07 PM | *Begins resonating Chant* KALI MAAAHHH, KALI MAHHHHH :P |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron03-02-07, 07:24 PM | Doctor Jones, DOCTOR JONES! Hey lady hes Doctor Jones, you call him Doctor Jones! |
| Karsus the Mad03-02-07, 08:22 PM | -What kinds of parties do you go to!? The kind that we throw in our flat? Ya know, the ones where you sit around in your undies, munching the snacks I slave over to prepare, watching TV. Nah, he mentioned stuff that people throw at parties that don't come out of clothes. Well, there's "throw up". There's "throwing pee", and there's that glittery stringy stuff that people "throw". I figured if I name all 3, then I can't be wrong:P Actaually, I think this thread has become a private Karsii affair. And that's somehow a bad thing?:emp: |
| Lord Karsus03-02-07, 08:25 PM | *Begins resonating Chant* KALI MAAAHHH, KALI MAHHHHH :P -Oddly enough, my girlfriend's (that is, in real life) nickname is Kali Mai. So far, she hasn't manifested those destructive tendencies, but I'll watch out... |
| 42103-02-07, 08:52 PM | Just when i thought this tread can not get more weird. |
| BrennonGoldeye03-02-07, 09:16 PM | Glitter, that's it, glitter. Glitter all over that boy.:rolleyes: |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron03-03-07, 03:04 AM | Glitter? I hated that movie! |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek03-03-07, 05:45 PM | Foresight won't help you. Here is Foresight: This spell grants you a powerful sixth sense in relation to yourself or another. Once foresight is cast, you receive instantaneous warnings of impending danger or harm to the subject of the spell. You are never surprised or flat-footed. In addition, the spell gives you a general idea of what action you might take to best protect yourself and gives you a +2 insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves. This insight bonus is lost whenever you would lose a Dexterity bonus to AC. When another creature is the subject of the spell, you receive warnings about that creature. You must communicate what you learn to the other creature for the warning to be useful, and the creature can be caught unprepared in the absence of such a warning. Shouting a warning, yanking a person back, and even telepathically communicating (via an appropriate spell) can all be accomplished before some danger befalls the subject, provided you act on the warning without delay. The subject, however, does not gain the insight bonus to AC and Reflex saves. Foresight doesn't give you the knowledge of what spell is going to be cast or anything like that. I have noticed that a lot of people are misunderstanding the spell. Pretty much you are never surprised, flat-footed, an AC bonus and a bonus to Reflex saves. It doesn't give warning about something that is going to happen later. It is instantaneous. Say a rogue jumps out the bushes and is about to sneak attack you you are instantly aware of this. And whats to stop Elminster from summing a Solar, well he just happens to have a Gate spell memorized? And no Forsight will not inform him that he needs to memorize that spell. Well if all else Cadderly can summon Morwel Queen of the Eladrin, she is 39 hit die and there is no Chosen alive or dead that can defeat her. And all she would bring with her is her rapier and a cloak of charisma +6, other than that she would be butt naked. And another note on the Solar there is a spell that allows you to swap Hit points with another, the Solar would just swap his HP with Cadderly since the Solar regenerates all damage except for evil and epic, even spell damage he regenerates. |
| Alediran03-03-07, 05:48 PM | Morwel would never listen the summons of some mere human, and no solar either. You are still thinking them as mere numbers and that's what you fail to understand. |
| Stigger03-03-07, 06:46 PM | Interesting idea... but... otherwise what Alediran said. They aren't chess pieces on a board, particularly when the hand trying to control them is some mortal, Chosen or not. |
| MaskedOne03-03-07, 07:08 PM | Unlike a solar, Morwel is a unique being. The Gate spell is expressly forbidden from compelling her in any way. If Cadderly has the utter audacity to try then the results are not my problem. Feel free to test your luck but if she carves out a major organ for trying use her as a pawn, don't say I didn't warn you. |
| BrennonGoldeye03-03-07, 09:01 PM | Morwel? Hmm. Possible. I advise you have a 1st edition ready for donation to her library. Then she might only planeshift you away from your foe. :elf: |
| Lord Karsus03-03-07, 11:40 PM | -If she appears butt naked, as Xun said, Elminster might throw the fight, however...;) |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek03-04-07, 12:25 AM | Morwel would never listen the summons of some mere human, and no solar either. You are still thinking them as mere numbers and that's what you fail to understand. If you read the gate spell, it pulls them away from their plane and they listen to the caller. With the gate spell it doesn't give them a choice. Thats why it's a 9th level spell. Unfortunatly you can't make up rules to fit the situation. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek03-04-07, 12:26 AM | Unlike a solar, Morwel is a unique being. The Gate spell is expressly forbidden from compelling her in any way. If Cadderly has the utter audacity to try then the results are not my problem. Feel free to test your luck but if she carves out a major organ for trying use her as a pawn, don't say I didn't warn you. Actually all it has her listed as is a 39hd eladrin. It doesn't say anything about her being unique. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek03-04-07, 12:27 AM | -If she appears butt naked, as Xun said, Elminster might throw the fight, however...;) Well the only thing about that is Elminster would have to make a Willpower save DC48 or die. |
| MaskedOne03-04-07, 01:01 AM | Ehh, right then. As you wish. The archons, guardinals and eladrins have their rulers, leaders and exemplars on the celestial planes where good holds sway. These celestial paragons share much in common with each other and also bear certain similarities to their archfiend counterparts on the lower planes. At the same time, each is a unique being blessed with powers and abilities that relate directly to that paragon's area of interest and expertise. Before it comes up, yes I can provide evidence that Morwel, Queen of the Court of Stars is considered a celestial paragon. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron03-04-07, 03:56 AM | If you read the gate spell, it pulls them away from their plane and they listen to the caller. With the gate spell it doesn't give them a choice. Thats why it's a 9th level spell. Unfortunatly you can't make up rules to fit the situation. Are you mad?:uh-huh: :looloo: Why dont you try to summon Asmodeus to do your bidding next? See how that goes for you.:ghosted: |
| Stigger03-04-07, 10:15 AM | Probably have an easier time getting Asmodeus than Morwel... I could actually see him showing up just because it would amuse him to do so. Of course I could see a few avatars showing up to counter said arrival, but still... |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron03-04-07, 02:32 PM | Probably have an easier time getting Asmodeus than Morwel... I could actually see him showing up just because it would amuse him to do so. Of course I could see a few avatars showing up to counter said arrival, but still... My money is on Asmodeus in an Avatar versus avatar fight!:D Of course I have secretly believed for years that Asmodeus is the divine manifestation of an Over-power.;) |
| Lord Karsus03-04-07, 03:54 PM | -Asmodeus certainly is Lawful Evil incarnate... |
| MarkusTay6303-05-07, 01:37 AM | -Asmodeus certainly is Lawful Evil incarnate...I have him as the Manfestation (Uber-Avatar) of Ahriman, and the father of Lucifer (NE), who in turn is the father of Satan (CE). They each rule three layers (one plane) in the lower planes (my Hell). I re-worked the planes so that Heaven and Hell are opposite of each other, something that always bothered me about the standard wheel. And of course, like any cosmology, it's all a matter of perception, so the other two cosmologies are also neither right or wrong. ;) |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron03-05-07, 01:47 AM | I always used Lucifer as Asmodeus’s alter ego. So when the lesser devils ousted him they think they have achieved a victory. So ever few millennia Ahriman lets his devils think they have accomplished something. When in fact all they have done is change the name on the letter head. Asmodeus, Lucifer, and Satan. All the say Over-power in my world. That’s an uber-secret the players will never know. Oh and if they find out they will have teams of Devil assassin on them night and day. I call that particular campaign Assassin Run. Kind of like cannonball run without the comedy. My players begin each gaming getting swarmed on by devils! LOL They are all suffering from exhaustion because they are plagued by nightmares. They are stressed, but enjoying the mayhem none the less. Although its getting to the point that they are not welcome anywhere in the planes. I like your cosmology Markus. |
| Stigger03-05-07, 09:08 AM | Feels a bit to steeped in Christianity for my tastes, but hey, I'm a rampant pagan, so... have fun with it. :D |
| ShadezofDis03-05-07, 10:48 AM | If you read the gate spell, it pulls them away from their plane and they listen to the caller. With the gate spell it doesn't give them a choice. Thats why it's a 9th level spell. Unfortunatly you can't make up rules to fit the situation. What are you talking about???? Did you read the spell you're talking about? Under Gate, in PHB 3.5 it states; "Deities and unique beings are under no compulsion to come through the gate, although they may choose to do so of thier own accord." In other words, no you cannot summon Morwel, Queen of the Court of Stars. And that's not even counting that Caderly still can't win initiative. Further, foresight is actually important, if they have foresight up then Caderly cannot suprise them and unless they're suprised then Caderly is likely going to lose initiative. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron03-05-07, 03:14 PM | I have always though of Cadderly as one of the least interesting NPCs in the Realms. Hes the guy with the attacking Yoyo right? lol |
| Stigger03-05-07, 03:21 PM | Yeah, that would be the one I think... and yeah, boring as hell really. Our Fearless Hero from Lost Library of Cormanthyr was much more interesting I thought. Just loved that his azmyth friend... |
| Lord Karsus03-05-07, 03:25 PM | Yeah, that would be the one I think... and yeah, boring as hell really. Our Fearless Hero from Lost Library of Cormanthyr was much more interesting I thought. Just loved that his azmyth friend... -That bat was pretty funny. |
| BrennonGoldeye03-05-07, 08:49 PM | I have always though of Cadderly as one of the least interesting NPCs in the Realms. Hes the guy with the attacking Yoyo right? lol This explains much...:dbl: |
| MarkusTay6303-05-07, 10:32 PM | Feels a bit to steeped in Christianity for my tastes, but hey, I'm a rampant pagan, so... have fun with it. :DTrue, but I 'needed' all the lore/myths/religion to work together, and that had to include Christianity. By making Satan CE, he now resides directly opposite of Mount Celestia. I even have PICTURES; (http://www.deviantart.com/deviation/50183786/) as you can see, I reduced the unneccessary extra planes. @ LLKN - I have Lucifer as Hades alter ego. Not really chaotic, not really lawful... just doing his job. I only did the whole father/son thing in Hell because I'm a big fan of Little Nicky. :D |
| Terraneaux03-06-07, 04:05 AM | So Cadderly has a +6 initiative bonus, Elminster has a +10. Elminster wins most fights. If Cadderly wins initiative, he gates in a phane or whatever and it stands a good chance of killing Elminster. Keep in mind that it is a full-round action to cast spells with his funky spontaneous casting power, not a 1 round action, so it still completes before the end of his action. |
| Stigger03-06-07, 10:05 AM | If they're infinite planes, why would where they 'stood' on a 2d representation matter in terms of them opposing one another or not? |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek03-07-07, 08:05 PM | So Cadderly has a +6 initiative bonus, Elminster has a +10. Elminster wins most fights. If Cadderly wins initiative, he gates in a phane or whatever and it stands a good chance of killing Elminster. Keep in mind that it is a full-round action to cast spells with his funky spontaneous casting power, not a 1 round action, so it still completes before the end of his action. One thing I noticed with Elminster. His saves are wrong, and he has 5 more feats than he should. How does he have a +10 init? His Dex is 18 and he has Improved Init, well with him having too many feats it would depend on what was taken off. Anyway 4 + 4 = 8. No wonder Elminster is so powerful, he goes beyond the rules. |
| Terraneaux03-07-07, 08:59 PM | One thing I noticed with Elminster. His saves are wrong, and he has 5 more feats than he should. How does he have a +10 init? His Dex is 18 and he has Improved Init, well with him having too many feats it would depend on what was taken off. Anyway 4 + 4 = 8. No wonder Elminster is so powerful, he goes beyond the rules. Unfortunately, that is frequently how the novel characters are portrayed. |
| BrennonGoldeye03-07-07, 09:17 PM | One thing I noticed with Elminster. His saves are wrong, and he has 5 more feats than he should. How does he have a +10 init? His Dex is 18 and he has Improved Init, well with him having too many feats it would depend on what was taken off. Anyway 4 + 4 = 8. No wonder Elminster is so powerful, he goes beyond the rules. Oh my. Congratulations Xun. Level 2!!:D |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron03-08-07, 01:11 AM | Oh my. Congratulations Xun. Level 2!!:D Depends which El he is referring to? The one in FRCS or the Epic handbook.:D :P |
| Terraneaux03-08-07, 02:40 AM | The one in the Epic Level handbook is the most recent printing. He still needs to be restatted to make sense. |
| Alediran03-08-07, 12:51 PM | You can have more feats than usual, read Fiendish Codex II for an example on how obtain new feats without need for leveling up. You can also use Wish for gaining new feats. |
| MaskedOne03-08-07, 05:27 PM | One thing I noticed with Elminster. His saves are wrong, and he has 5 more feats than he should. How does he have a +10 init? His Dex is 18 and he has Improved Init, well with him having too many feats it would depend on what was taken off. Anyway 4 + 4 = 8. No wonder Elminster is so powerful, he goes beyond the rules. I won't get into feat numbers without actually looking at his stat block but if memory serves then his 3E stat block (he doesn't have another) had blooded as a feat, granting +2 Initiative (if memory serves). So the +10 is relatively accurate. Going past that, I don't have my books with me so I can't comment right now. |
| The Simbul03-08-07, 08:31 PM | Normally when I return to a discussion and I find new issues that have not yet been fully addressed, I usually will reply to those statements in the order that they were posted. However, in this instance I have decided to make a slight exception and eviscerate this statement first, given how glaringly erroneous it is, and how (unlike an opinion) there is no ground for it to stand on. That said, rest assured I will fully address any other unresolved arguments that have appeared in this thread since, in due time and in full.One thing I noticed with Elminster. His saves are wrong, and he has 5 more feats than he should. How does he have a +10 init? His Dex is 18 and he has Improved Init, well with him having too many feats it would depend on what was taken off. Anyway 4 + 4 = 8. No wonder Elminster is so powerful, he goes beyond the rules.I often wonder how someone who claims to have so much more experience and knowledge of the rules over the rest of us can be so glaringly incorrect in interpreting them, or at least not bother to double (or triple?) check before hitting the "Submit Reply" button. An alternative theory might be one just chooses to make blatantly erroneous statements in hopes that no one will bother to fact check or call one out on it, or perhaps such statements are knowingly made just for the fun of seeing if anyone will. Regardless, insofar as Initiative, Saving Throws, and Feats are concerned, Elminster's stat block is not "wrong" in any sense of the word. The 60+ words I quoted above are however, quite a different story.His saves are wrongNo. They are not. Elminster's listed saving throw bonuses in the Epic Level Handbook are Fort +29, Ref +25, Will +29, and those are precisely the saving throw bonuses a character would receive if they possessed his ability scores, his feats, his equipment, and if they had his class levels and took those class levels in the same order that he did (Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz24/Acm5). At 20th level Elminster was a Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz14. How do I know this? Three reasons: 1) That is the order in which his classes are listed in his stat block. If the order in which the classes are listed was meaningless then they would be listed alphabetically. 2) That is the order in which he engaged in each of those professions in his life, as documented in Elminster: Making of a Mage. 3) Most importantly, his original stat block in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting was as a Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz20/Acm5/Epic 4, since you could not have more than 20 levels in a given class under those early "epic" rules. His listed his epic level benefits were "six effective levels of wizard, five effective levels of archmage, and bonus spell level x 4". That means, by the rules, at level 20 he was a Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz14. Why is this important, and why am I going to such lengths to point it out? Because despite the fact that 3E D&D has existed for upwards of 7 years now, some people still do not understand the finer points of multi-classing, specifically the fact that when multi-classing is done correctly it can almost always result in you having better base saving throw bonuses than a single classed character of the same level. This becomes more important when it comes to the Epic Level rules, because after level 21 you receive a standard increase to all saving throws regardless of what class you are advancing in, whereas at non-epic levels each class has its own base save values, which are all added together from all of your classes. A Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz14 has the following non-epic base saving throw bonuses: Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +12. Elminster has 15 epic levels in the Epic Level Handbook (10 in Wizard, 5 in Archmage). As per the Epic Save Bonus rules, all of his saving throws are increased by +7. That brings us up to Fort +16, Ref +15, Will +19. Elminster has a DEX of 18, a CON of 24, and a WIS of 18. That gives him +4 to both Reflex and Will saves and a +7 bonus to Fortitude saves. This brings us up to Fort +23, Ref +19, Will +23. Elminster's mantle of spell resistance was given an upgrade in his Epic Level Handbook stat block. Using the rules for adding new powers to an existing magic item, Elminster was able to use his Craft Wondrous Item/Craft Epic Wondrous Item feats to add a +5 resistance bonus to saving throws to his mantle of spell resistance, as if it possessed the added benefit of a cloak of resistance +5. This brings us up to Fort +28, Ref +24, Will +28. But wait, that leaves us one point off, doesn't it :confused: Well, I guess it would be silly to expect one to read the other 98% of his stat block to find an answer, namely his feats, and more specifically Luck of Heroes, which increases all of his saving throws by an additional +1. That leaves us with the final tally at Fort +29, Ref +25, Will +29. Elminster's listed saving throw modifiers are 100% correct under the rules of the game.he has 5 more feats than he should.No. He does not. Elminster has a grand total of 20 feats in his Epic Level Handbook statistics block, and that is precisely the number of feats and bonus feats a character of his race, classes, and total HD should have. All characters receive a feat at 1st level, again at 3rd level and at every three levels thereafter. Normally I would trust everyone to be able to perform the associated math, but for some reason I feel compelled to go the extra mile. Elminster has 35 class levels, and therefore he receives a feat at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27, 30, and 33. At each interval he can use these feat slots to select any feat for which he currently meets the prerequisites for at that level, and at levels 21+ he may select either a normal feat or an epic feat for that slot, at his discretion. Thus far, from HD alone we have 12 feats (7 standard, 5 epic). Of course it does not end there. Elminster is also entitled to numerous bonus feats as well. *As a human, he receives a bonus feat at first level. *As a 1st level Fighter, he likewise receives a bonus feat from the list of bonus fighter feats as well. *As a 24th level Wizard, Elminster receives scribe scroll as a bonus feat at 1st level and any metamagic or item creation feat as a bonus feat upon gaining his 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels in the wizard class. *In addition, epic wizards (i.e. any wizard who has 21+ or more class levels in the wizard class...i.e. not just a wizard caster level of 21+) receive a bonus epic feat upon gaining their 23rd level in the wizard class, and every three levels afterwards. Elminster is a 24th level wizard, therefore he gains another bonus feat, which may be taken from the bonus feat list for epic wizards or any item creation or metamagic feat, at his discretion. The end result is that Elminster recieves 12 feats from his total character level (total HD) from all classes combined, and 8 additional bonus feats from his race, his 1 fighter class level, and his 24 wizard class levels. 12 + 8 = 20 the last time I checked, and 20 is the number of feats Elminster's Epic Level Handbook statistics block contains.How does he have a +10 init? His Dex is 18 and he has Improved Init, well with him having too many feats it would depend on what was taken off. Anyway 4 + 4 = 8. A Dexterity score of 18 gives a +4 bonus to ability checks for Dexterity. An Initiative check is a ability check using Dexterity, and thus from his Dexterity score Elminster derives a +4 bonus to Initiative checks. So far so good. Elminster also has the Improved Initiative feat, which he (as noted above) could have acquired with any of his 12 normal feats gained from HD, or from his bonus fighter feat. Improved Initiative grants a +4 bonus to Initiative checks. So far, still good. Elminster also has 19 other feats beyond Improved Initiative (also all of which, as noted above, he legally possesses under the rules). One of these feats is Blooded, which grants a +2 bonus to Spot checks and a +2 bonus to Initiative. 4 + 4 + 2 = 10. Thus Elminster has a base initiative modifier of +10. For the record, when there are errors to be found in the stat blocks of the Chosen of Mystra, or most other Epic FR NPCs, they are almost always errors that are to the detriment the character than ones that help them. Storm Silverhand's Initiative Modifier, and most of her other Dexterity based stats, were not bolstered by the +2 bonus to DEX she received in the Epic Level Handbook from her newly acquired +2 gloves, even though the ability score itself was increased. Meanwhile her listed saving throw bonuses are actually lower than those that she would be entitled to for having the ability scores, class abilities, feats, equipment, and class levels (along with the order in which they were taken). Yet despite this, even if in light of the lower/incorrect numbers she can still tear Cadderly apart. |
| Lord Karsus03-08-07, 08:39 PM | -Simbul, you are nothing if but thorough. A toast to the Simbul. :tiphat: |
| The Simbul03-08-07, 08:46 PM | Depends which El he is referring to? The one in FRCS or the Epic handbook.:D :PIt honestly doesn't matter. Elminster's initiative modifier, saving throw modifiers, and total number of feats in both stat blocks are individually 100% accurate within the scope of the rules they were each created under. |
| Alediran03-08-07, 08:54 PM | When is something about 3rd ed rules, just summon the simbul (and all the red wizards have just banished) I have the feeling that Xun will come with another silly argument to show he didn't loose the debate a long time ago. *Alediran goes back to cooking* |
| The Simbul03-08-07, 09:03 PM | So Cadderly has a +6 initiative bonus, Elminster has a +10.Elminster's base initiative modifier is +10. Elminster also has the spellcasting capabilities of a 29th level wizard (CL 30 with spellpower in 3.5) to meddle with his initiative check beyond that +4 starting advantage, and can do so with only the some of the most common spells available in a Forgotten Realms Campaign (i.e. using the Player's Handbook, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and Magic of Faerūn). A simple cat's grace spell cast up to 30 minutes before combat in 3.5, or up to 30 hours beforehand in 3.0, can increase his initiative bonus by +2 for all initiative checks for the spell's duration. Kaupaer's skittish nerves (nerveskitter in the Spell Compendium) can increase this initiative bonus by +5, either by being cast before combat as a standard action with a duration of 30 rounds in 3.0, or as an immediate action just before initiative is rolled in 3.5. Meanwhile a moment of prescience can give him a +25 insight bonus to any single attack roll, saving throw, or any opposed ability check/skill check he makes during the next 30 hours after casting the spell. As per the D&D Glossary, Initiative is a Dexterity check, a Dexterity check is an ability check, and an Initiative roll is an opposed roll. Therefore, Initiative can be augmented by moment of prescience. Last but not least, a wish spell has the direct listed power to undo misfortune and force a re-roll of any roll made in the previous round AND can alter reality on its head in order to accommodate the new result. Elminster could lose initiative and potentially reclaim it once his turn comes around with a wish spell, and in turn effectively have the chance to undo everything that transpired in the previous round. Although in most cases such extremes are not necessary, as a simple timestop would give all the time in the world to recover from a failed initiative check. Of course the key critical difference here is that Cadderly cannot directly cast ANY of the aforementioned spells, since none of them are to be found on the Cleric class spell list or any of his Domains. Meanwhile with a miracle spell he can only mimic cat's grace or Kaupaer's skittish nerves (nerveskitter) since the spell level of moment of prescience exceeds the level and category of spells miracle can duplicate. As for forcing a re-roll, in terms of a spell's listed effects that is exclusive to a wish. A miracle that seeks to accomplish the same task goes beyond the listed possible functions of the spell, and therefore is entirely subject to the DM, the Patron Deity, or both. Meanwhile, the 3.5 version of Kaupaer's skittish nerves (nerveskitter) must be cast as an immediate action when one makes an initiative check. Miracle and Wish spells always have a casting time of 1 standard action, unless affected by quicken spell or the like, even if they are used to duplicate the effects of another spell with a different casting time. This is because wish/miracle only duplicate a spell's effects (not it's casting time), and wish/miracle can only duplicate the effects of a spell after the wish/miracle itself has been cast (as a standard action) in the first place. In some cases this can be advantageous, in other scenarios (such as this one), it is not. Namely you cannot use miracle, limited wish, or wish to duplicate the effects of the 3.5 Kaupaer's skittish nerves (nerveskitter) until after you have had the chance to take a standard action...which would be after you have already rolled initiative, which makes the tactic pointless. |
| MaskedOne03-08-07, 09:26 PM | Two questions: 1) Where can I find Moment of Prescience? 2) Is it a flat 25 bonus or does it grant a bonus dependent on caster level with a cap at 25? |
| GothicDan03-08-07, 09:31 PM | Moment of Prescience is in the PHB. :) |
| MaskedOne03-08-07, 09:43 PM | Moment of Prescience is in the PHB. :) Thanks :) |
| Karsus the Mad03-08-07, 09:52 PM | Thanks :) Honestly...you didn't know... What form of opposistion are you? So sad...... You're suppose to protect the astral divine essence of Karsus... You're fired... |
| MaskedOne03-08-07, 10:06 PM | Honestly...you didn't know... What form of opposistion are you? So sad...... You're suppose to protect the astral divine essence of Karsus... You're fired... On Mystra's payroll not your's, anyway at over 4000 and using systems that most of Toril doesn't remember, I do well for myself. Shrug, anyway KtM, how often do you see me demonstrate great knowledge of 3.X mechanics on short notice? |
| Karsus the Mad03-08-07, 10:19 PM | True on that. I think I'll forgive...this time. Just promise to provide a balancing for my uber magic...Faerun needs a balance, and the deities aren't able to provide it, as noted. Thus your purpose..... I need a beer.... |
| GothicDan03-08-07, 10:22 PM | Can I have a purpose, too? |
| Karsus the Mad03-08-07, 10:25 PM | Can I have a purpose, too? Of course you can. Come here. I need some help.... |
| GothicDan03-08-07, 10:29 PM | But can't I safeguard Elven Magic from here? |
| MaskedOne03-08-07, 10:34 PM | GD: Long as your purpose is not aiding the Karsi directly or shoving Law at me. Overabundance of law is annoying to me and the Karsi have two aids. By the way, KtM does your overworked severance trick protect itself against temporal meddling? I'm thinking I'll hop back slightly modify a mythal of mine and pause the blasted thing, should save us both a headache without you needing to explain your defenses. Even have a variant of your avatar trick that with a strong enough mortal follower will let you exert full power through them without opening up to more fire than you get for sending an avatar to trade for non-intervention from your past selves. Used it effectively under Mystril, Mystra and Midnight aren't as fond of it but it still works and might make your hands more useful when they grow up enough to survive the casting. OOC: If you actually expect stats for such a trick then you are in for a long wait. |
| Lord Karsus03-08-07, 11:11 PM | Overabundance of law is annoying to me and the Karsi have two aids. -Three, actually. ;) |
| MaskedOne03-08-07, 11:16 PM | -Three, actually. ;) Who's the third and when did they sign on? |
| GothicDan03-08-07, 11:17 PM | GD: Long as your purpose is not aiding the Karsi directly or shoving Law at me. Overabundance of law is annoying to me and the Karsi have two aids. I don't need to shove Law at you. It's already all over you - whether you know it or not... ;) |
| Karsus the Mad03-08-07, 11:19 PM | But can't I safeguard Elven Magic from here? I guess you can, but I was going to cast some epic buffs so you can safeguard it more efficiently. I have a rather potent "mantled mythal" epic spell I was going to share with you.... |
| GothicDan03-08-07, 11:22 PM | Pft. I already have that one. ;) |
| Karsus the Mad03-08-07, 11:28 PM | Pft. I already have that one. ;) Not possible. I was the first mortal to utilize the mythal epic seed in a personal mantle-like spell on these boards, or any other. Anything that has come after has built upon what I already presented. Karsus's Mantled Mythal....yep yep yep. |
| GothicDan03-08-07, 11:28 PM | I did it BEFORE these boards! |
| Karsus the Mad03-08-07, 11:30 PM | I did it BEFORE these boards! Uhhh... the Mythal seed didn't exist "before these boards".....yesssss...... |
| Lord Karsus03-08-07, 11:50 PM | Who's the third and when did they sign on? -There's Brennon, my primary servitor, and Irish and Shades, my secondary servitors. I plan to tempt Merrik one of these days as well. |
| MaskedOne03-08-07, 11:58 PM | -There's Brennon, my primary servitor, and Irish and Shades, my secondary servitors. I plan to tempt Merrik one of these days as well. Irish? Was I active on the thread that you hired Irish on? Not remembering so either not there or faulty memory. Too young for memory failure, I'm not even 10,000 yet. |
| Lord Karsus03-09-07, 12:08 AM | Irish? Was I active on the thread that you hired Irish on? Not remembering so either not there or faulty memory. Too young for memory failure, I'm not even 10,000 yet. -Probably not, I guess. Basically, he's a Werewolf from Ireland. I figure it's always good to have connections in Ireland. When the IRA needs to get rid of all those weapons, I'll be all to happy to take 'em. For what? I'm not sure yet, but you can never be too prepared. Might go clone hunting across the multiverse... |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek03-09-07, 12:30 AM | Normally when I return to a discussion and I find new issues that have not yet been fully addressed, I usually will reply to those statements in the order that they were posted. However, in this instance I have decided to make a slight exception and eviscerate this statement first, given how glaringly erroneous it is, and how (unlike an opinion) there is no ground for it to stand on. That said, rest assured I will fully address any other unresolved arguments that have appeared in this thread since, in due time and in full.I often wonder how someone who claims to have so much more experience and knowledge of the rules over the rest of us can be so glaringly incorrect in interpreting them, or at least not bother to double (or triple?) check before hitting the "Submit Reply" button. An alternative theory might be one just chooses to make blatantly erroneous statements in hopes that no one will bother to fact check or call one out on it, or perhaps such statements are knowingly made just for the fun of seeing if anyone will. Regardless, insofar as Initiative, Saving Throws, and Feats are concerned, Elminster's stat block is not "wrong" in any sense of the word. The 60+ words I quoted above are however, quite a different story.No. They are not. Elminster's listed saving throw bonuses in the Epic Level Handbook are Fort +29, Ref +25, Will +29, and those are precisely the saving throw bonuses a character would receive if they possessed his ability scores, his feats, his equipment, and if they had his class levels and took those class levels in the same order that he did (Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz24/Acm5). At 20th level Elminster was a Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz14. How do I know this? Three reasons: 1) That is the order in which his classes are listed in his stat block. If the order in which the classes are listed was meaningless then they would be listed alphabetically. 2) That is the order in which he engaged in each of those professions in his life, as documented in Elminster: Making of a Mage. 3) Most importantly, his original stat block in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting was as a Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz20/Acm5/Epic 4, since you could not have more than 20 levels in a given class under those early "epic" rules. His listed his epic level benefits were "six effective levels of wizard, five effective levels of archmage, and bonus spell level x 4". That means, by the rules, at level 20 he was a Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz14. Why is this important, and why am I going to such lengths to point it out? Because despite the fact that 3E D&D has existed for upwards of 7 years now, some people still do not understand the finer points of multi-classing, specifically the fact that when multi-classing is done correctly it can almost always result in you having better base saving throw bonuses than a single classed character of the same level. This becomes more important when it comes to the Epic Level rules, because after level 21 you receive a standard increase to all saving throws regardless of what class you are advancing in, whereas at non-epic levels each class has its own base save values, which are all added together from all of your classes. A Ftr1/Rog2/Clr3/Wiz14 has the following non-epic base saving throw bonuses: Fort +9, Ref +8, Will +12. Elminster has 15 epic levels in the Epic Level Handbook (10 in Wizard, 5 in Archmage). As per the Epic Save Bonus rules, all of his saving throws are increased by +7. That brings us up to Fort +16, Ref +15, Will +19. Elminster has a DEX of 18, a CON of 24, and a WIS of 18. That gives him +4 to both Reflex and Will saves and a +7 bonus to Fortitude saves. This brings us up to Fort +23, Ref +19, Will +23. Elminster's mantle of spell resistance was given an upgrade in his Epic Level Handbook stat block. Using the rules for adding new powers to an existing magic item, Elminster was able to use his Craft Wondrous Item/Craft Epic Wondrous Item feats to add a +5 resistance bonus to saving throws to his mantle of spell resistance, as if it possessed the added benefit of a cloak of resistance +5. This brings us up to Fort +28, Ref +24, Will +28. But wait, that leaves us one point off, doesn't it :confused: Well, I guess it would be silly to expect one to read the other 98% of his stat block to find an answer, namely his feats, and more specifically Luck of Heroes, which increases all of his saving throws by an additional +1. That leaves us with the final tally at Fort +29, Ref +25, Will +29. Elminster's listed saving throw modifiers are 100% correct under the rules of the game.No. He does not. Elminster has a grand total of 20 feats in his Epic Level Handbook statistics block, and that is precisely the number of feats and bonus feats a character of his race, classes, and total HD should have. All characters receive a feat at 1st level, again at 3rd level and at every three levels thereafter. Normally I would trust everyone to be able to perform the associated math, but for some reason I feel compelled to go the extra mile. Elminster has 35 class levels, and therefore he receives a feat at levels 1, 3, 6, 9, 12, 15, 18, 21, 24, 27, 30, and 33. At each interval he can use these feat slots to select any feat for which he currently meets the prerequisites for at that level, and at levels 21+ he may select either a normal feat or an epic feat for that slot, at his discretion. Thus far, from HD alone we have 12 feats (7 standard, 5 epic). Of course it does not end there. Elminster is also entitled to numerous bonus feats as well. *As a human, he receives a bonus feat at first level. *As a 1st level Fighter, he likewise receives a bonus feat from the list of bonus fighter feats as well. *As a 24th level Wizard, Elminster receives scribe scroll as a bonus feat at 1st level and any metamagic or item creation feat as a bonus feat upon gaining his 5th, 10th, 15th, and 20th levels in the wizard class. *In addition, epic wizards (i.e. any wizard who has 21+ or more class levels in the wizard class...i.e. not just a wizard caster level of 21+) receive a bonus epic feat upon gaining their 23rd level in the wizard class, and every three levels afterwards. Elminster is a 24th level wizard, therefore he gains another bonus feat, which may be taken from the bonus feat list for epic wizards or any item creation or metamagic feat, at his discretion. The end result is that Elminster recieves 12 feats from his total character level (total HD) from all classes combined, and 8 additional bonus feats from his race, his 1 fighter class level, and his 24 wizard class levels. 12 + 8 = 20 the last time I checked, and 20 is the number of feats Elminster's Epic Level Handbook statistics block contains. A Dexterity score of 18 gives a +4 bonus to ability checks for Dexterity. An Initiative check is a ability check using Dexterity, and thus from his Dexterity score Elminster derives a +4 bonus to Initiative checks. So far so good. Elminster also has the Improved Initiative feat, which he (as noted above) could have acquired with any of his 12 normal feats gained from HD, or from his bonus fighter feat. Improved Initiative grants a +4 bonus to Initiative checks. So far, still good. Elminster also has 19 other feats beyond Improved Initiative (also all of which, as noted above, he legally possesses under the rules). One of these feats is Blooded, which grants a +2 bonus to Spot checks and a +2 bonus to Initiative. 4 + 4 + 2 = 10. Thus Elminster has a base initiative modifier of +10. For the record, when there are errors to be found in the stat blocks of the Chosen of Mystra, or most other Epic FR NPCs, they are almost always errors that are to the detriment the character than ones that help them. Storm Silverhand's Initiative Modifier, and most of her other Dexterity based stats, were not bolstered by the +2 bonus to DEX she received in the Epic Level Handbook from her newly acquired +2 gloves, even though the ability score itself was increased. Meanwhile her listed saving throw bonuses are actually lower than those that she would be entitled to for having the ability scores, class abilities, feats, equipment, and class levels (along with the order in which they were taken). Yet despite this, even if in light of the lower/incorrect numbers she can still tear Cadderly apart. First off Simbul lets get something straight right now right in the open. Ok I admit I was wrong about his stats, but if you are trying to gain respect, or you think you are all big and bad, well I am glad to break it to you but talking to others the way you do doesn't make you big and bad and it sure as hell doesn't gain you any respect. You are not a god, you don't know it all. Get the hell off of your high horse before someone knocks you off. Now I have already posted a way for Cadderly to defeat the Chosen, I can post a lot more, that was one way off the top of my head. I noticed you put Storm down there. If Cadderly has a Maximized End of Strife up she will take 120 points of damage every time she swings her sword, or if she is casting a spell at Cadderly and she is within range. The spell Shield of Archons blocks all spells, spell-like and supernatural. It's like I have said before, just because you think the Chosen can't be beaten doesn't mean they can't. Apparently you may know the stats and history on characters, but so far from what I have seen you aren't a very good player. There are many ways for Cadderly to win, but yet you can't see them. That shows me that your gaming experience isn't that great. |
| Lord Karsus03-09-07, 12:33 AM | -For the love of...:banghead: |
| Old Sage03-09-07, 12:52 AM | Xun, was any of that really necessary? |
| Lord Karsus03-09-07, 12:54 AM | Xun, was any of that really necessary? -Were you really expecting anything more (less) than that, though? :rolleyes: |
| Old Sage03-09-07, 12:58 AM | No, I suppose not. My own experiences with Xun, perhaps, should've made that evident. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek03-09-07, 01:08 AM | Elminster's base initiative modifier is +10. Elminster also has the spellcasting capabilities of a 29th level wizard (CL 30 with spellpower in 3.5) to meddle with his initiative check beyond that +4 starting advantage, and can do so with only the some of the most common spells available in a Forgotten Realms Campaign (i.e. using the Player's Handbook, Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting, and Magic of Faerūn). A simple cat's grace spell cast up to 30 minutes before combat in 3.5, or up to 30 hours beforehand in 3.0, can increase his initiative bonus by +2 for all initiative checks for the spell's duration. Kaupaer's skittish nerves (nerveskitter in the Spell Compendium) can increase this initiative bonus by +5, either by being cast before combat as a standard action with a duration of 30 rounds in 3.0, or as an immediate action just before initiative is rolled in 3.5. Meanwhile a moment of prescience can give him a +25 insight bonus to any single attack roll, saving throw, or any opposed ability check/skill check he makes during the next 30 hours after casting the spell. As per the D&D Glossary, Initiative is a Dexterity check, a Dexterity check is an ability check, and an Initiative roll is an opposed roll. Therefore, Initiative can be augmented by moment of prescience. Last but not least, a wish spell has the direct listed power to undo misfortune and force a re-roll of any roll made in the previous round AND can alter reality on its head in order to accommodate the new result. Elminster could lose initiative and potentially reclaim it once his turn comes around with a wish spell, and in turn effectively have the chance to undo everything that transpired in the previous round. Although in most cases such extremes are not necessary, as a simple timestop would give all the time in the world to recover from a failed initiative check. Of course the key critical difference here is that Cadderly cannot directly cast ANY of the aforementioned spells, since none of them are to be found on the Cleric class spell list or any of his Domains. Meanwhile with a miracle spell he can only mimic cat's grace or Kaupaer's skittish nerves (nerveskitter) since the spell level of moment of prescience exceeds the level and category of spells miracle can duplicate. As for forcing a re-roll, in terms of a spell's listed effects that is exclusive to a wish. A miracle that seeks to accomplish the same task goes beyond the listed possible functions of the spell, and therefore is entirely subject to the DM, the Patron Deity, or both. Meanwhile, the 3.5 version of Kaupaer's skittish nerves (nerveskitter) must be cast as an immediate action when one makes an initiative check. Miracle and Wish spells always have a casting time of 1 standard action, unless affected by quicken spell or the like, even if they are used to duplicate the effects of another spell with a different casting time. This is because wish/miracle only duplicate a spell's effects (not it's casting time), and wish/miracle can only duplicate the effects of a spell after the wish/miracle itself has been cast (as a standard action) in the first place. In some cases this can be advantageous, in other scenarios (such as this one), it is not. Namely you cannot use miracle, limited wish, or wish to duplicate the effects of the 3.5 Kaupaer's skittish nerves (nerveskitter) until after you have had the chance to take a standard action...which would be after you have already rolled initiative, which makes the tactic pointless. Forget Cat's Grace, Cadderly could cast Divine Agility which would give a +10 to Dex, casts Superior Resistance +6 to saves, Shield of the Archons, End of Strife, Use Miracle to cast Quickshift which allows him to cast Greater Teleport as a free action for the next 20 rds, have a Renewal Pact and Fortunate fate on. These are just a few spells that would work. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek03-09-07, 01:09 AM | Xun, was any of that really necessary? You damn right it was necessary. Are smart ass comments, and comments trying to put people down necessary? |
| Lord Karsus03-09-07, 01:16 AM | You damn right it was necessary. Are smart ass comments, and comments trying to put people down necessary? -If you can point out a specific example where someone (presumably the Simbul) was trying to put another person "down" (presumably you), I might entertain the notion. |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek03-09-07, 01:18 AM | -If you can point out a specific example where someone (presumably the Simbul) was trying to put another person "down" (presumably you), I might entertain the notion. I will let the WizOs handle it. |
| Lord Karsus03-09-07, 01:20 AM | I will let the WizOs handle it. -Since no actions have been taken by the WizOs (publicly), one must assume that nothing has been done that violates the CoC. |
| Old Sage03-09-07, 01:20 AM | Xun, where exactly were The Simbul's "smart ass" comments? And, more importantly, where exactly were these "putting you down" comments? |
| Zevox03-09-07, 01:45 AM | You damn right it was necessary. Are smart ass comments, and comments trying to put people down necessary? Am I the only one who sees the irony here? :rolleyes: Zevox |
| MaskedOne03-09-07, 01:59 AM | Forget Cat's Grace, Cadderly could cast Divine Agility which would give a +10 to Dex, casts Superior Resistance +6 to saves, Shield of the Archons, End of Strife, Use Miracle to cast Quickshift which allows him to cast Greater Teleport as a free action for the next 20 rds, have a Renewal Pact and Fortunate fate on. These are just a few spells that would work. Xun go back to the Solar trick. End of Strife is useless against anyone who can get Mind Blank in play. All of the Chosen have access to either personal ability to wield Mind Blank or items that can arrange it. Storm's luckblade is actually listed, I don't need to use the clause about resources in her write-up has a wish left which yes can mimic mind blank. Provided she doesn't use an anti-magic field which works just as well. Cadderly will not be using Shield of the Archons real well since it requires the caster to be an archon and Cadderly is quite mortal. Miracle might do it but that's the only way it's going up and the defense it provides is not perfect. I won't touch the disparity between the initiative increasing tricks you listed and what the Simbul listed. At least the Solars might give him a chance against Dove or Storm. EDIT ADD ON: Xun, I don't think you want to debate courtesy here at all but feel free to ignore that advice. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron03-09-07, 02:56 AM | death to all karsi!!!!!!!!!:P |
| The Simbul03-09-07, 03:25 AM | Look i'm not going to argue with you.Oddly the sentences following this one seemed to indicate otherwise, however that kind of concession would of course certainly be welcome, since I already explained why the original post regarding Cadderly and Mystra's Chosen was incorrect, and provided the numerical statistics of characters in question.Just because you say something that doesn't mean it's correct case closed.Oh, and precisely what information did I present that was incorrect? Did I misread Cadderly’s wisdom score, feats, and abilities, and the associated DC for the saving throws of his spells extrapolated from them? Did I misread the fact that Elminster, Storm, and the Simbul will all effortlessly make their saving throws against his spells unless they roll a 1? Did I misread their initiative scores and Spot modifiers, all of which determine who goes first in a battle? Did I misrepresent their HP totals and defensive abilities, all of which will allow them to take twice as much damage as Cadderly, while their offensive spells and abilities let them slay him twice as quickly? Was I somehow incorrect to assume that being able to cast or unleash multiple spells per round is better than only being able to cast one? If I was wrong, then by all means please explain.I don't know if you have ever participated in a spell-battle during games, or have played in a lot of games, but number stats don't always make the difference.I have participated in enough spell battles in D&D to know that if you have a 19 out of 20 (95%) chance of succeeding your saving throws against an enemies most powerful spells targeted against your weakest save, then your opponent is clearly not “more powerful” than you. Likewise, I have participated in enough spell battles in D&D to know that if your opponent has a 19 out of 20 (95%) chance of failing his saving throws against your most powerful spells targeted against his classes’ weakest save, then you are double certain that he is not “more powerful” than you. I have participated in enough spell battles in D&D to know that if you have enough ranks in Concentration to automatically succeed in casting your spells defensively, while your opponent has absolutely NO RANKS IN CONCENTRATION at all, then you are three-fold certain he is not “more powerful” than you. I have participated in enough spell battles in D&D to know if you have the ability to cast or unleash multiple spells per round, through spells like timestop and Simbul’s spell trigger, or with feats like Quicken Spell, Multispell, or Twin Spell, while your opponent can only cast one spell per round, then you are four-fold certain that he is not “more powerful” than you. I have participated in enough spell battles to know that access to every spell on your class spell list is of little advantage to you when your weaker statistics ensure your opponent will be impervious to 99% of them, and of even less advantage when your opponent can handily slay you before you even get the chance to cast such a spell in the first place. I have participated in enough spell battles in D&D to know that if you are a cleric with the ability scores, equipment, feats, and abilities of Cadderly Bonaduce, then you are not more powerful than Elminster, Storm, the Simbul, Khelben, Alustriel, or Laeral, or any other Chosen of Mystra whose stat blocks we may see in the future. The fact that you disregard all of the above as irrelevant is beyond perplexing.Now I have been playing spellcasters since 1st edition. I know a lot of spell combos, what good defences to put up etc.. Ok, now a cleric is one buffing machine. Clerics do not need a lot of magical items to buff themselves up. If you have been playing spellcasters as long as you claim then you will know that spell durations are not perpetual, nor do they have a negligible casting time. You will likewise know that that when you encounter an enemy you are not given the free reign luxury of 10 rounds to cast your litany of buffing spells before they commence their assault. You would also know that if you fail your opposed Spot checks for awareness, fail your spot check to notice a hiding or disguised character, or have a poor initiative modifier then you wont be able to cast any spells at all if your opponent only needs one round to kill or incapacitate your character. You will moreover know that if your opponent is a higher level spellcaster with access to spells in the dispel magic chain, or is a spellcaster with access to Mordenkainen’s disjunction, or is a spellcaster with superior melee skills and access to antimagic field, then all the pre-cast buffing spells in the word are not going to be worth a thing.Ok I don't care if Joe Blow has a Reflex save of 30. Each individual person can get behind the wheel of a character and especially with spellcaster and defeat apponents who was sure to win.Yes, apparently skill will somehow magically cause Cadderly to roll a natural 20 on every saving throw while simultaneously cause Elminster, Storm, etc to all roll a natural 1, once one “gets behind the wheel” of that character. Who “gets behind the wheel of a character” is not the issue. Your explaination for the argument that “Cadderly is more powerful than any of Mystra’s Chosen” is inherently based on your implied notion that all of Cadderly’s actions would be decided by a (supposed) D&D rules expert, while a novice would be playing Elminster. Who gets behind the wheel of a character doesn’t allow you to suddenly overcome all the glaring weaknesses in Cadderly’s abilities as a CR 24 character, let alone have a dependable chance of defeating someone 4 to 15 CR points above him.I know exactly what the stats are on the Chosen. I have all of their stats.That is a good start, now if only you would look over them and perform some basic calculations, and then plug those into the rules of the game and maybe you can understand why your original statement is in error and we can end this tangent.When you have been playing a long time you will understand that just because you have awesome stats that doesn't mean you are a shoe in to win.The fact that Cadderly can potentially defeat Elminster in one of a hundred or a thousand possible scenarios, while Elminster could effortlessly slay him in the other 99 or 999 scenarios does not equate to the statement that “Cadderly is more powerful than any of the Chosen of Mystra”. It equates to the statement that “he got lucky”, or “the DM was inept”, or that “the numbers were misrepresented”. The fact that Paris slew Achilles by the sheer luck of hitting his one weak spot, does not in any way equate that “Paris is more powerful than Achilles”. It equates to the fact that either he got lucky or Homer wanted to keep to the theme of a tragic hero in composing his epic. In the case of Elminster, he doesn’t have nearly as profound or exploitable weaknesses as Achilles, at least in terms of any that Cadderly could make excessive use of or that Elminster could not easily shield.It's like a race car. Sure you may have the fastest car on the track, but if you don't know how to drive it well then you won't win the race.No it isn’t. If your argument that “Cadderly is more powerful than any of the Chosen” is based on the notion that the actions will be decided by players of differentiating levels of skill, then it isn’t a comparison of the power/weakness of characters it is a comparison of the skill/lack-thereof of two players. All things being equal, the Chosen of Mystra are more powerful than Cadderly.You have that thing called strategy.You have this thing called Player Knowledge vs. Character Knowledge, the latter of which determines what strategies you as a player have access to. It is not a matter of which player controls the character, it is a matter of which character is clever or knowledgeable enough to come up with said strategies, and which character has seen enough spell battles to know what to do and what to anticipate. Of the Chosen of Mystra who have published stats, they all have higher INT scores than Cadderly, and even Khelben and Laeral have WIS scores that equal his, despite the fact that they are not Clerics and despite the fact that they do not get a +2 bonus to that score from a template. Mystra’s Chosen have all lived far longer, and have faced spellcasters far more powerful, far more clever, and far more cunning than Cadderly Bonaduce.And look at this also. Cadderly has access to magical items.Yes he does. They consist of a +2 quarterstaff, a +2 blowgun, and sixteen +1 crossbow bolts. Quite an impressive repertoire :rolleyes: I'm sure he could get his hands on any non-artifact item he wanted if he needed it.That would be your opinion...and tragically one which isn’t corroborated by anything in any of his stat blocks, either the one in 2E Heroes Lorebook or his 3E stat block on the WoTC Novel website, or his listing of possessions in either. You have persistently argued in almost every thread dealing with critiquing or the slaying the Chosen, that we MUST go by the stats as written. By your previously established precedent, anything that isn’t in the stats is pure conjecture and opinion. Therefore, by all means, let us adjudicate this by the stats. Cadderly’s stats make no such allowance or caveat for additional equipment. Cadderly Bonaduce has no item creation feats, and his listed equipment contains nothing regarding his ability to acquire anything else beyond it. As such, what you see is what you get. For any deviation from his listed equipment, the Chosen should gain double or triple as much in turn, since by default they do have the means to create or acquire additional magic items. Moreover, any presumed ability to acquire additional magic items assumes that Cadderly is aware of the battle far enough beforehand to prepare. If he is aware, then so shall be the Chosen of Mystra, and a prepared Chosen of Mystra is a Pandora’s box that no one aught to open.Now a 1st level character beating a 20th, no that won't work.And somehow it is less inconceivable for a 20th level character to beat a 35th level one? The issue isn’t whether or not the laws of probability allow Cadderly a sliver of a % of a chance of potentially slaying a Chosen of Mystra 10+ levels above him. The issue is whether Cadderly is more powerful than them. He is not, and having a 1% chance of overcoming them does not mean one is “more powerful”.But with spellcasters there are spells that help boost DC's, boost stats, boost saves, boost spell power, render magic uselessI know of three spells that directly boost saving throw DC’s (spell enhancer, mystic word, harmonic chorus), none of which Cadderly has access to and/or can personally benefit from if he cast/emulated them. By all means, if you know of a cleric spell that will boost Cadderly’s spell save DCs by 10 points please do tell, because I am just dying to hear of one. As for spells which boost stats, they have short term durations, and the Chosen of Mystra have just as much access to these as Cadderly, with the clincher being that on top of that they also have superior base ability scores to begin with and thus have less need for these spells. In addition, they also have the ability to cast/trigger multiple spells (buffing or otherwise) per round through numerous feats and spells, thus if they did wish to use these spells they can do so without sacrificing the potential for casting attack spell in the same round. As for saves, arguably two of the best spells in the game for boosting saving throws are protection from spells, which gives a +8 resistance bonus to saves against spells and which is the highest resistance bonus you will get from a non-epic spell, and greater heroism which gives a +4 morale bonus to all saving throws, which will stack with nearly everything on the spell list of a cleric, sorcerer, or wizard. Neither of these spells are accessible to Cadderly by means other than a miracle, whereas both of them are accessible the majority of the Chosen with stat blocks, and we have examples of Chosen who make persistent use of them. The clincher here however, aside from access these spells, is that most of the Chosen of Mystra do NOT need to waste time and spell slots bolstering their saving throws in order to have a reliable chance of surviving an encounter with Cadderly...the same certainly cannot be said for the Chosen of Deneir. As for spells which render magic useless, please enlighten me as to which of those will turn the battle in Cadderly’s favor. Antimagic Field is a death sentence when you have his AC, HP, and ATK in comparison to those of the Chosen, and it is a repeatedly encountered enough obstacle by the Chosen for them to deal with. By contrast, the Chosen have access to things like sphere of wonder (see Khelben’s stats), antimagic aura, Reactive Counterspell, Mastery of Counterspelling, or Srinshee's Spellshift.there is initiative, there is terrain, there are all sorts of things that can affect the outcome.Please explain to me how initiative and terrain are things in Cadderly’s favor. Initiative: With the exception of Khelben, all of the Chosen of Mystra who have stat blocks have higher initiative modifiers than Cadderly. More importantly, in addition to the base modifiers, all the above Chosen (including Khelben), have access or can have access to spells that can bolster their initiative check, such as Kaupaer’s skittish nerves (nerveskitter), shock and awe, and moment of prescience. By contrast, Cadderly can only enjoy such benefits through a miracle. Meanwhile, even if the Chosen still lose their initiative check they can force a re-roll with a luckblade, or a with wish spells cast on their first action which can re-shape previously occurring round and allow them to go before him. Sadly a miracle has no such listed capability. Of course initiative doesn’t matter when you have a surprise round against your opponent. A surprise round is gained through being aware of your enemy before they become aware of you, and as such allows you to take a standard action (plus any free or swift actions) before either of you roll for initiative and before the opponent can react. Awareness is most often determined by opposed spot checks modified by distance, a spot check opposed by a hide check, or through exceptional perception/senses or the spells/magic items that grant them (darkvision, blindsight, foresight, etc) Elminster, Storm, the Simbul, Laeral, and even Khelben all of them have ranks in the spot skill and superior spot modifiers than Cadderly. In fact, Cadderly’s stat block doesn’t even have ranks in the spot skill or even a listed modifier. His ability to spot someone is based off an untrained wisdom check (1d20 +5). In addition, many of the Chosen have modifiers in Hide and Move Silently that Cadderly readily cannot overcome. All the strategy in the world isn’t worth anything when your opponent can see you before you see him, and in turn blast your character with spells before he even has a clue as to where you are coming from. Terrain: How will this ever be a reasonable factor in Cadderly’s favor? If Cadderly faces a Chosen of Mystra in close quarters, such as a dungeon, building, or corridor, then he is screwed. Why? Because Elminster, Storm, the Simbul, Khelben, Alustriel, and Laeral can all effortlessly cast their spells defensively, have a superior AC, and more hitpoints. By contrast, Cadderly Bonaduce has ZERO ranks in the concentration skill, and therefore cannot cast any spells defensively, nor can he hope to successfully cast a spell if he is damaged by an attack of opportunity or a readied action. If Elminster and Cadderly were standing together in a 40ft radius dome arena, Elminster could effortlessly win the spellbattle by using a move action to place himself in the center of the room and then use a standard action to activate his thunderlance spell-like ability, which gives him a melee reach of 20, and in turn ensures Cadderly would incur an AoO no matter where in the room he was standing. By contrast, if Cadderly faces a Chosen of Mystra in a wide-open outdoor area, such as Mountains, Plains, or Desert terrain, then he is still screwed. Why? Because arcane spellcasters have hundreds of attack spells with a long range (400ft + 40ft per level), whereas the Cleric class spell hardly has any that exceed a range of medium (100ft +10ft per level). But more importantly, because the Chosen of Mystra have superior Spot check modifiers, the Chosen can actually spot Cadderly from such a distance (and in turn be able to target him with spells) before he sees them and has a chance to react. Laeral Silverhand’s spot check against humans is 1d20 +29. Cadderly’s Spot check is 1d20 +5. Laeral could be standing upwards of 300 feet away (-30 spot check penalty for both characters) from Cadderly on an open plain or mountain range and still spot him long before he sees her, and she could vaporize him in the course of a surprise round with one a chain lighting (Morgan’s staff), quickened fireball, and quickened telekinesis (violent thrust, hurling a 150 pound boulder, 15d6 damage), all of which will deal in excess of 150 points of damage on failed reflex saves using average damage dice (ELH), and all before he even has a clue that she is even there. Even if he survives the initial assault, her base initiative modifier will be +11 if she has drawn her rod of alertness, or had an unseen servant pass it to her before the end of the surprise round. In fact, I think I will continue using Laeral Silverhand as the example for terrain, since she most pointedly drives home the issue of terrain being in the favor of the Chosen, and her equipment and spells prepared are fully spelled out in her stat block, and thus are not subject to debate. Terrain most notably impedes visibility and movement. In the case of Laeral, her robes grant a continuous 120ft darkvision and see invisibility. In addition, she can cast spells like low-light vision, blindsight, and true seeing as auto-quickened spells, in addition to any other auto-quickened (multispell) spell and standard action spell and move action she chooses for that round. By contrast, in terms of movement, Laeral has a continuous freedom of movement effect from one of her rings, has woodland stride from her ranger levels, and can autoquicken/multispell cast spells such as fly, haste, spiderclimb, polymorph, and Lutzaen’s frequent jaunt, in addition to having access to higher levels spells like greater teleport and shapechange, any of which can make movement obstacles a non issue, in addition to being able to launch all manner of magical assaults against a foe. Terrain is certainly not an issue for Laeral, and with any similarity in spells prepared it wont be for more of the other Chosen of Mystra either.But a true veteran of D&D knows that the battle isn't won just because certain odds maybe in your favor. It all boils down to how the character is played.You said “Cadderly is the Chosen of Deneir and he is more powerful than any of Mystra’s Chosen” If someone argues that a given being is more powerful than any of the Chosen of Mystra then his argument should not be based on the idea that Cadderly’s actions would be determined by a supposed expert on the D&D rules, whereas the actions of Elminster would be determined by a less skilled novice. Any stratagem can be proposed and dissected. Anyone can claim whatever die roll a character might make. The only constant factor are the numerical statistics, the laws of probability, and the relative power of the characters represented by their stats as written. As such, Cadderly Bonaduce is not “more powerful than any of Mystra’s Chosen”. Being “more powerful” than someone means you can randomly encounter them, and reliably slay them with a minimal amount of risk, a minimal expenditure of resources, and with only mediocre to poor die rolls. Having a 5% chance of surviving the first round of combat does not equal character X being more powerful than character Y. Nor is Cadderly more powerful than [insert Chosen here] if the entire premise for his victory is based not on his own stats, knowledge, and abilities, but instead on the idea that the person who is “playing” him (supposedly) has more experience at the game table. |
| The Simbul03-09-07, 03:36 AM | I told you people how it is done. It depends on the player and the roll of the dice. No matter how much you disagree with that it isn't going to change it. If you believe it's all about stats then go ahead, if thats the way you want to play then fine, but when someone else does something different don't act like your way is the right way. Cause it's not always what you want your way right away. This isn't Buger King.The statistics are the only static and non-disputable factor in such an argument. Not only do they serve as the only neutral baseline from which a rational person can draw conclusions, but in this scenario they overwhelmingly place Cadderly at a stark disadvantage. It is also really hypocritical to persistently spout the line that we must stick with the stats whenever the topic of min-maxed player characters slaying the Chosen of Mystra comes up on these boards, but suddenly when one finds themself on the erroneous side of an argument, with the statistics as written so profoundly proving their point to be incorrect, that one then conjures this notion that statistics are somehow suddenly irrelevant in D&D. Elminster, Storm, and the Simbul all have to roll a natural 1 in order to actually to fail a saving throw against one of Cadderlys spells. By the time of the laws of probability allow for such an occurrence, the aforementioned Chosen would have been able to slay or incapacitate Cadderly a dozen times over, assuming that they already didnt turn him into a pile of ashes or a hacked-up corpse before he managed to cast said spell in the first place. The only scenario under which it boiling down the the player and the dice would allow Cadderlys egregiously underpowered stat block to yield anything more than a fraction of a % chance of victory against an opponent 10+ CR points above him, is if the dice are weighted, the player controlling Elminster is on a coffee run, and the DM to oversee it all is a house-plant named fred.Cadderly, the Chosen of Deneir Male human (Chosen of Denier) Clr 20; CR 24...[snip] I personally don't have Cadderly's stats except from 2nd edition but this is what I found from the net. Ok as with casting his spells he basically loses his move action like a Sorcerer casting meta-magic. Well from the looks of it Cadderly has psionics which is nifty. I don't know if this is true, but if it is then that opens up a whole can of worms. If these are his true stats there is a lot I can do with this character.I gave you his official stat block the spoiler block in my reply. I also gave you the link to that official stat block on the WoTC website in forethought of anyone questioning the authenticity of the source. Once again, here is the link http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_deneirWhat mechanical handicap? there is no having to roll ones and 20's when dealing with Cadderly. You really need to open your eyes, look past the Chosen even though they are apparently your heroes and see what can really happen. The Chosen are not the almighty can't be beaten. I don't use the novels because in a novel anything can go according to the author. In stat mode it's just the mind of the player and the roll of the dice.Once again, it isnt an issue of one player being more skilled than another. Its an issue of one NPC being more powerful than another. Power is not defined by character X having a sliver of a % chance of winning a victory, it is defined by that character being able to handily slay that character without any severe level of risk involved. The idea that Cadderly can potentially defeat Elminster under the most absurd, logic defying, or dice-stacked battle scenario does not equate to the idea that Cadderly is "more powerful" than Elminster, specifically when Elminster needs no special circumstances at all to slay Cadderly. The highest DC spell Cadderly can cast is 24. In the time it takes him to buff his stats any of the Chosen can cast a buff of their own (along with any quickened, timestopped, or spell trigger spells) to bolster their saves twice over AND make a spell-attack in the same round. |
| Harkle03-09-07, 04:15 AM | You know I enjoy seeing someone beeten down as mecrylessly and efficiently as The Simbul does it, but after seeing her do it so many times as she has done here it kinda becomes hard to watch. I guess I've never been one for excessive brutality. Doesn't make her work any less badass though. |
| The Simbul03-09-07, 04:28 AM | Ok I will make this rather simple and quick. For the Chosen like Storm and Dove who rely on combat. The 9th level spell End of Strife will take care of them. Lets say Cadderly prays using Incense of Meditation where everything is maximized. Ok anyone who attacks, melee, spell, whatever, the caster will take an automatic no save 120 points of damage per attempt to attack. A fighter has 4 attacks he takes them all thats an automatic 480 points of damage this is within 80ft, so it could be used against anyone.Dove Falconhand has no official 3E or 3.5 stat block, only a class/level line. Therefore she is irrelevant to this discussion, and any assertions as to what she can or cannot do against Cadderly is pure conjecture....even in light of the fact that Cadderly is 8 Challenge Rating points below her and even if he does arguably have the poorest stat blocks of any FR NPC to date. As for Storm, since she is one of the six Chosen of Mystra who actually does have a stat block, I will be more than happy to reference her in this reply. Primarily since by having a stat block she is one of the six Chosen I can use as an example without having to endure any questioning of every possible spell, feat, magic item, or skill rank I might reference in my reply as just being an opinion, a guess, or illegitimate argument of what she may or may not have at hand. End to Strife, along with every other spell you mentioned in this reply, has a duration of one round per level, or in the case of Cadderly, a duration of 20 rounds. What does that mean? It means he will not be casting this spell prior to combat, as he will have no reason to use it outside of the presence of any enemies, or rather any enemies that he is aware of. Encounters in D&D are not pre-ordained events where both parties courteously declare themselves and ask the other to notify them when they are ready. There is no en guard there is no touché. The DM determines awareness of the other individual or group based on either an opposed spot check, extraordinary or magically enhanced senses possesed by one party/person or another, or other means of being alerted of a foe. Cadderly cannot reliably spot Storm before she spots him, and his chances of spotting her if she uses stealth are equally as slim. Storm Silverhands total Hide check modifier is +18, and her Move Silently modifier is +24. Cadderly by contrast has no ranks in either of the above skills, nor in Spot or Listen, and his opposed roll modifier to determine awareness in order to determine a surprise round, or to spot an enemy using stealth is a simple untrained wisdom check (+5 modifier). Meanwhile Storms spot modifier is +11. You can take 10 on spot checks, which gives her a reliable median of 21. Cadderly and Storm can be wandering about in the wilderness, come within 200 feet of each other (-20 to spot checks to determine awareness) , and Storm automatically can spot him, whereas Cadderly must roll a 16 or higher on a d20 to have an equal chance of spotting her at the exact same moment. What does this mean? It means Storm can reliably become aware of Cadderly before he is aware of her 75% of the time (or even higher if she actually rolls the spot check), and in turn it means she is able to act during the surprise round before they roll for initiative during round 1. That gives her all the time she needs to teleport to an adjacent square, or use her stealth skills or her dust of disappearance (greater invisibility without the downside of being seen by divinations) to move to a closer position. This is all occurring before normal combat itself begins, which means not only can she get within physical reach of him before he sees her, but she also has a chance of winning initiative during the first round of normal combat, and in turn having two actions in a row. The end result is that Cadderly either has no time to fortify himself with buffing spells before she bounds into melee reach of him with a teleport spell or a run action, or before she employs her stealth skills and abilities to get within closer reach of him before he can act. Why on earth is this so important? Because Cadderly will not be able to cast ANY spells so long as Storm, or virtually any foe of equal level is within melee reach of him. Why? BECAUSE CADDERLY BONADUCE HAS NO RANKS IN THE CONCENTRATION SKILL. When I say he has arguably the worst spellcaster stat block I have ever seen, it is not just hyperbole on my part. Cadderlys stat block puts character so far above effectiveness that he is lucky he spends all of his time in a lonely corner of Faerun, because both his lack of love for combat, and his lack of effectiveness in it ensure that swords and daggers are things he would do well to keep away from. Cadderly cannot successfully cast a spell if he has been struck by an Attack of Opportunity or a readied attack from anyone capable of hitting an AC of 12 and dealing more than 12 points of damage, which I can ensure you Storm Silverhand readily can. He likewise cannot successfully cast a spell if he incurs more than 12 points of damage from any spell cast against him as readied action if he attempts to concentrate. Cadderly likewise cannot succeed any concentration checks to cast spells defensively against Storm either, because she has the Spellcasting Harrier epic feat, which gives any spellcaster a 14 penalty (1/2 her character level) to concentration checks made to cast defensively while threatened by her. Cadderlys options once Storm has spotted and cornered him are fairly slim. He can run away (and in doing so incur an AoO) and then cast a spell at the end of his move. Alternatively he can take a 5ft step and then cast a spell (assuming Storm doesnt manage to increase her melee space/reach/threat range by magical means). However all of this assumes he actually won initiative during the first round of the actual encounter, i.e. after Storm closes in on him via stealth or a surprise-round teleport. If Storm won initiative, she would do what anyone with her spellcasting capabilities and history of dealing with evil spellcasters would do...either cast antimagic field, or ready an action to blast him with a damaging spell (lets use magic missiles as an example) if he attempts to concentrate on casting a spell of his own. Using average damage dice, a magic missile cast by her will inflict 17 points of damage, conveniently more than enough damage to reliably disrupt the concentration of virtually most 20th level spellcasters...let alone one who has no ranks in concentration at all. However her best and more sure tactic is to simply ready an action to move whenever Cadderly moves, and as such she will always remain adjacent to him, which allows her to disrupt his spellcasting with an attack of opportunity, even if he does attempt a 5ft step or chooses to move away and then cast a spell. But for the sake of argument, lets assume probability takes a vacation, and Cadderly and Storm encounter and spot other at the same time, there is no surprise round, and Cadderly wins initiative. They are far enough away for Cadderly to be able to cast a spell without physical interference from her, yet they are close enough for Storm to be able to potentially melee attack him after moving on her next turn, thus giving Cadderly the actual motivation to actually cast the End to Strife spell as early as the first round. Cadderly Bonaduce casts End to Strife, and Storm laughs heartily. Before I continue, lets have a look at the spell shall we? From the Book of Exalted Deeds excerpt, on the official D&D website; End to Strife Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting] Level: Apostle of peace 9, cleric 9 Components: V, S, DF Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: 80 ft. Area: 80-ft.-radius emanation, centered on you Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw: None Spell Resistance: Yes This spell creates an invisible aura of divine power around the caster. All intelligent creatures within the spell's area suddenly become aware that any hostile actions they take will be met with dire consequences. Any creature in the spell's area that makes an attack takes 20d6 points of damage. The caster decides whether the spell deals lethal or nonlethal damage but cannot change her mind once the spell is cast. Creatures with multiple attacks take the damage after every attack they make. Targets outside the area of the spell may freely attack creatures in the area without taking damage from this spell. The spell announces its presence to anyone who could be affected by it by warning them that hostile actions will be met with dire consequences. Moreover, the retribution only comes from melee or ranged attacks. It does nothing to impede spells. Storm has numerous options that dont involve a melee or ranged attack. Storm can ready an action to cast offensive or damaging spells (magic missile) to disrupt his concentration if he attempts further spellcasting. Storm can also bring down the spell with one of the two remaining wishes on her (ELH-upgraded) luckblade, either by duplicating dispel good (which can automatically dispel any enchantment spell cast by a good creature), or just by wording the wish correctly. Alternatively she can mindblank herself with that wish as well. There are some other options I could dive into right now, but for the moment I will keep them up my sleeve since her best option is also the simplest; Storm casts an antimagic field. When affected by antimagic, both Cadderly and Storm will have equal Attack Bonuses, an equal number of attacks per round, and equal STR scores. However Storm will have more than twice as many HP, a much better AC, and she will be armed with a longsword, which not only deals more damage than Cadderlys weapons, but it is also one she is also specialized in it as a fighter. Meanwhile Cadderly wears no armor, and his weapon options consist of a quarterstaff, crossbow, and a weaponized yoyo. Storm can deal more damage and sustain or evade more damage than Cadderly can in an Antimagic Field. Alternatively she could just repeatedly grapple, pin, or trip him after casting it. Therefore if she casts the spell, then there is little he can do. Lets say Cadderly prays using Incense of Meditation where everything is maximized.Lets say he doesnt. Cadderly Bonaduce doesnt own incense of meditation, nor does he have the ability to create any on his own. Cadderlys equipment listing is self-explanatory, and the previously published 2E lore, which is the only lore we have on him outside of his 3E stat block, explains that his finances have been tied up and are devoted to raising a monastery, and he does not possess nor is ever seen with any items beyond his simple clothing, and moreover those items he is listed with in his 3E stat block are simply leftovers from his adventuring career. If Cadderly Bonaduce can come up with incense of meditation on a moment notice, despite having little personal wealth and no ability to create magic items on his own, then the Chosen of Mystra---all of whom can create magic items and whose stat blocks DO contain statements that allow them to acquire or make items far beyond those listedshould in turn have double or even triple as much added equipment to their arsenal for the battle. Moreover, using incense of meditation assumes you have foreknowledge of the encounter, at least the 8 hours needed to gain the benefit of the incense and the time it would take Cadderly to acquire the gold to purchase it and find someone whom he could purchase or otherwise acquire from. If Cadderly is capable of being aware of the encounter ahead of time, then the Chosen will be equally as prescient, either by being warned by their own spells and abilities, or by Mystra herself. An unprepared Chosen of Mystra can slay Cadderly with little thought or planning. A prepared Chosen of Mystra is an assured death for Cadderly, and one that may simply come while he is still busy praying over the aforementioned incense.Ok now, another tactic would be to start out by spending 1000xp cast "Gate" and call forth a 40HD Solar. Cadderly's level is 20 and you can control a creature who's hit dice doesn't exceed double your caster level. The solar appears instantly and can attack. This would be a huge Solar with higher stats and a SR of at least 52. They carry a bow that fires arrows of slaying, it has a dancing greatsword that can hit you of it's own accord while the solar is acting. A solar has spell-like and clerical spells at it's disposal. Now while this is going on Cadderly can then cast Shield of the Archons which will protect him from all spells and spell-like abilities. With the greatsword in your face everytime you cast a spell make a concentration check unless you want to cast on the defensive. Cadderly can rain down with Firestorms, Blade barriers or whatever, (all at maximum damage), before Cadderly left he placed a Word of Recall on himself. He could summon an Elemental Monilith, the Solar can use Summon Monster VII at will or have Summon Monster XI memorized. The Solar can burn 1000xp open up a gate and summon an (34 HD Solar if his cleric level remains at 17 even though he has 18 more HD than the usual HD solar) or whatever he wants to engage in the fight. Read the Gate spell if some of you don't believe me. Cadderly can proceed to buff himself up more, or attack, the 40 HD Solar can cast Rightous Might and become Colossal, then cast Divine Power to add to his fighting ability. I have a lot more to go but I figured i would post this little bit.So far you have given me a treatise on how to abuse the Gate spell, rather than an synopsis of why Cadderly is more powerful than any of Mystras Chosen. This is especially important, since the Gate spell is more powerful in the hands of a Chosen than in the hands of Cadderly. In fact, because Cadderly has such poor combat statistics, spell save DCs, saving throws, and similar deficiencies, the tactic is essentially to subsidize his shortcomings by summoning a creature that actually is powerful enough to take on the Chosen. However, there are several problems here. First and foremost, I often wonder why anyone would open with a summoning or calling spell in a spell duel, unless they had the ability to cast multiple spells per round, such as via quicken spell or timestop. The reason is simple; people do not walk around with every conceivable spell protection already in place. In fact, their durations make it nigh impossible. Opening a spell battle by summoning or calling a powerful being may look impressive, but it does little to prevent your adversary from seizing the opening to simply kill you with a spell (or a combination thereof) during their turn. Having a Solar or a Pit Fiend standing next to you doesnt give you amnesty against whatever slaying spell your opponent hurls on their turn. Cadderly can open the encounter by casting a Gate spell on round one. Conversely, Elminster kills Cadderly in the same round with a maximized polar ray (which is a 10th level spell for him; 150 points of damage, of any one of five different energy types of his choice via mastery of elements, which strikes Cadderlys touch AC of 12 automatically except on a roll of a 1 with Elminsters ranged attack of +23). Without anyone left to command him, the called creature either departs or proceeds to attack Elminster...it doesnt matter however, since Elminster can trigger his Elminster's evasion spell with a single word (Thaele), and in turn escape the battle at any time, even during the summoned creatures turn. Now to address more specific pointscast "Gate" and call forth a 40HD Solar. Cadderly's level is 20 and you can control a creature who's hit dice doesn't exceed double your caster level.Cadderly Bonaduce would not know a Solar if it marched into his Monastery, snatched up his Tome of Universal Harmony, and bludgeoned him with it. Cadderly Bonaduce has no ranks in Knowledge (the planes), and as such the highest DC check he can attempt for it is a DC 10. The DC to simply identify a Solar by sight is 32, which means not only would Cadderly not know one if he ever saw one, but he also would not have the faintest idea as to its actual abilities, powers, and resistances. In addition to having no apparent book-knowledge on Solars (or other planar denizens for that matter), Cadderly has apparently never even been to the Outer Planes either. As per his lore in the Heroes Lorebook (which is the most recent rulebook to give his biographical details) Cadderly has spent his entire lifetime within the region of the Snowflake Mountains, with occasional excursions into the bordering Shilmista forest, and the human settlement of Carradoon. Yeah....plenty of advanced 40 HD Solars roaming around there :rolleyes: So not only does Cadderly know nothing about the planes, he also has no biographical lore that would ever place him in the planes. By themselves, one of these facts could be dismissed, but together they form a rather clear picture of how sheltered his life actually is. Cadderly has no statistical ability to even know what a Solar is, nor does he have any biographical facts that ever conceivably have him encountering one. Calling a creature that he has no knowledge of and never encountered before is one thing. Calling an advanced unique version of that creature falls under an entirely new tier of impossibility. The solar appears instantly and can attack.Where does it state that the called creature acts immediately upon casting the spell? No such text can be found in the description of the Gate spell, nor anywhere in the description of the conjuration (calling) subschool. Unless I am missing something, in the absence of anything declaring when the creature acts it should follow the rules for newcomers to a battle, in which case it enters the initiative sequence in between rounds, and should not be able to act until after all present combatants who have no acted in this round have their turn. If it was aware of one or both of the combatants, then it can go first on the next round as if it had rolled the highest initiative.This would be a huge Solar with higher stats and a SR of at least 52.Where in the description of the Solar does it explicitly stat that their SR value scales with HD? There are creatures in D&D, as well as unique creatures who have been advanced, who either have set-SR values, or SR values that are not based on their HD. In the absence of rules determining how an advanced Solar will look, such assertions are moot. Regardless, it isnt the Solars defenses that are the issue. The Solar can have magic immunity for all I care, it doesnt prevent Cadderly from being killed by spells a fraction of a second after the Gate spell is cast. Now onto more finer points regarding the Solar. As per the rules for Improving Monsters, any creature that is improved by adding HD, abilities, class levels, the elite array, or other methods is by default an extraordinary individual and/or unique NPC. Calling an individual being requires you to know and name them, you cannot simply choose a creature of any given advancement. The ability of the gate spell to call a single creature of any HD refers to the fact that you can call any type of creature, whereas the other conjuration (calling) spells have set HD limits. It does not mean that you can automatically call a creature of any advancement of HD if do not know of such a creature in question. Moreover, a theoretical advanced version of a creature does not have a set-in-stone stat block, which is unlike the other combatants in this scenario. That in an of itself should disqualify the use of such creatures, since the lack of a defined stat block is an exploitable argument tactic, where a participant has an infinite number of undefined variables to work with or exploit to create loop holes in anyone's attempted counterargument vis-ą-vis the tactics, abilities, or defenses of such a creature. The stat blocks found in the Monstrous Manual describe the standard for any given monster. Exceptions that deviate from this are in the form of unique NPCs, and are duly given their own stat blocks by authors or DMs. If Cadderly has no way of knowing of a Solars existence, and if he in all likelihood has never encountered one, then how on earth will he be able to call a unique individual NPC to aid him when he is not even remotely familiar with the base creature? Moreover, can anyone even name a NPC Solar with 40 HD? Asmodeus himself has only 35 HD, and in addition to being a unique named NPC, and he is also the ruler of a plane. How pray tell do we then explain away the notion of random 40HD Solars roaming the planes who simply stand around waiting to die in someones gate spell duel? In the absence of virtually any published Solar NPC advanced to 40 HD, let alone one whom Cadderly would know of or be acquainted with, any creature called or summoned in a contentious scenario should be exact replicas of their Monstrous Manual equivalents. More importantly, as per the gate spell, deities and unique creatures can be called through a gate, but they cannot be controlled by the caster. The stipulation for deities and similarly powerful beings is obvious, whereas the restriction on not controlling unique creatures is simply an issue of game balance. The restriction exists, among other reasons, to prevent crafty players from abusing the gate spell,= and the rules for the definition of extraplanar (anyone who is a native of a plane other than the one you are currently on is considered extraplanar) to jump to any other plane in the cosmology and use a gate spell to; -summon the NPC villain of the campaign -force him to surrender all of his gear -force him to tell the PCs where the princess is being hidden -then command him to kill himself and/or stand still while the PCs do it for him. Nameless, ordinary versions of a creature can be called and used by a Gate spell because they are largely a dime-a-dozen creatures, and their death will not impact a storyline that involved individual allies and villains. Unique/named creatures and NPCs are an entirely different matter, and the inability to control them via the Gate spell is essential to ensure that major characters cannot simply be auto-killed by means of it, or used as a weapon against others. Thus, even if such a creature did exist, and Cadderly knew of that creature, he still would not be able to control the Solar once it arrived. A celestial creature of such power and magnitude would think twice before attacking the most exalted servants of a Greater Deity, particularly when the person who called him serves a Deity far below Mystra in power and rank. Lastly, the most important issue to take note of it the most obvious. If Cadderly can theoretically call a 40 HD extraplanar creature with a gate spell, then not only so can the majority of the Chosen, but they can also summon more powerful creatures than he can. In fact, since we are on the issue of calling unique NPCs who therefore cannot be controlled if/when they (choose to) arrive, then perhaps we should go all out. Cadderly uses a Gate spell to call a heretofore unknown unique NPC 40HD Solar, who (as a unique creature) he must then tries to convince to fight his adversaries for him. By contrast, Elminster uses a gate spell to call a 55HD avatar of Mystra, who he likewise attempts to convince to perform similar actions. In fact, since we are apparently throwing logic out the window, why dont we just scratch that idea entirely...instead we will have Elminster call Mystra herself through the gate. ...somewhere in Faerun, a Solar just soiled his waistcloth. They carry a bow that fires arrows of slaying, it has a dancing greatsword that can hit you of it's own accord while the solar is acting. A solar has spell-like and clerical spells at it's disposal. Yes I know how to read a monstrous stat block. The issue is these abilities do not prevent the Chosen of Mystra from killing Cadderly on their next action, which in this scenario would still be in the first round of combat. Moreover, arrows of slaying will not bother the majority of the Chosen, as 2/3 of those who have stat blocks will auto-succeed their saves except by rolling a 1, and the other two can cast quickened buffing spells to subsidize their saving throws. Slaying arrows are a slight nuisance, as is the initial damage of the dancing greatsword. All of the Chosen have insane hitpoints, and they can deal with Cadderly before the swords will deal any significant damage. In the case of Elminster, Alustriel, or Khelben you can expect a greater ironguard (see spell compendium) among the other spells they weave during timestop, which will make the weapon useless, meanwhile in the case of Laeral the dancing greatsword will simply be rendered powerless and harmlessly fall to the ground the instant it touches her, thanks to her supernatural abilities.Now while this is going on Cadderly can then cast Shield of the Archons which will protect him from all spells and spell-like abilities.Actually no and no. Cadderly cannot cast shield of the archons. Why? Because he isnt an archon. The spell itself requires the caster to have the archon subtype, otherwise it fails upon casting, as it would for any missing component. Miracle meanwhile allows you to bypass some of the material component cost of a spell, that by no means should be mistranslated into allowing you to substitute the unique and extraordinarily restrictive special components in the BoED. Moreover, the second no would be the spell protecting against all spells. Shield of the Archons will dissipate targeted spells, at a rate of once per round, and with a % chance that each spell dissipated will in turn dissipate the shield as well. Shield of the Archons does not dissipate effect spells or area spells, but rather gives a +4 bonus to saves against them. Therefore Shield of the Archons will not prevent Cadderly from being torn apart by a barrage of area spells or magical rays, nor will it stop spells cast repeatedly in a row in a single round, such as with quickened spells (Alustriel, Laeral, and Khelben) or with timestop and/or simbuls spell trigger (Elminster, the Simbul, Khelben, Alustriel, etc). Beyond that, the strategy so far involves two spells that have a duration of one round per level, neither of which would ever be reasonably in place in the beginning of an encounter. Cadderly will not reliably survive past the first round of combat if his opening action is simply to summon a creature, and that is assuming he wasnt surprised or Mystras Chosen did not win initiative, in which case he wont be doing much of anything on his first round at all.With the greatsword in your face everytime you cast a spell make a concentration check unless you want to cast on the defensive. By far one of the most ironic statements in this reply. ALL of the Chosen of Mystra who so far have stat blocks have enough ranks in concentration to effortlessly cast all of their spells defensively. By contrast, Cadderly has NO ranks in concentration at all, which only further lowers the likelihood of him being able to cast any spells in the first place. Cadderly can rain down with Firestorms, Blade barriers or whatever, (all at maximum damage), before Cadderly left he placed a Word of Recall on himself. He could summon an Elemental Monilith, the Solar can use Summon Monster VII at will or have Summon Monster XI memorized. The Solar can burn 1000xp open up a gate and summon an (34 HD Solar if his cleric level remains at 17 even though he has 18 more HD than the usual HD solar) or whatever he wants to engage in the fight. Read the Gate spell if some of you don't believe me. Cadderly can proceed to buff himself up more, or attack, the 40 HD Solar can cast Rightous Might and become Colossal, then cast Divine Power to add to his fighting ability.In what time frame is all of this taking place? Cadderly can cast one spell per round. If that one spell isn't enough to slay or incapacitate the Chosen, then he will in all likelihood not survive the rounds to follow. By contrast the Chosen have means to cast or unleash multiple spells per round, which can include protective spells and attack spells, which means they lose no ground in the fight by casting defensive spells (which can be dispelled), and they do not leave themselves undefended by focusing entirely on offense. |
| The Simbul03-09-07, 04:58 AM | Wow, since when did Cadderly take up using Psionics? I don't remember that from the web write up at all.... Or the Novels.He doesnt. The paragraph claiming he has access to innumerous psionic powers was written by a fan and is not part of his official stat block. Meanwhile the listing of the single word psionics in the short hand listing of special qualities of his official stat block was a misprint and was meant to refer to his spell-like abilities. His official stat block is on the WoTC books page here http://ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_deneir There is one wish remaining in Storm's luckblade. Enough to mimic a mindblank and commence with the slicing.Actually it was upgraded in the Epic Level Handbook, it now has a +3 enhancement bonus, grants +3 to saves, and has two wishes left.While you are making an effort, and that's awesome, you are still ignoring that by the time Caderly has cast that gate, or the . . . oh, I forget, the little "you can't hurt me" doohicky spell, by the time either of those are cast Caderly is already dead, likely many times over. Explain how Caderly doesn't die in the first round, before his initiative. If you cannot do this without prep time then the Chosen gets the same amount of prep time.Exactly.PS. Yes, Caderly vs Storm or Dove is a better fight than Caderly vs El, Simbul, and other main casters.Actually not so much, specifically since Cadderly doesn't have the opportunity to cast spells ahead of time when his enemies can sneak up on him, nor does he have the luxury of casting them when an enemy is within melee threat range.Foresight won't help you. Here is Foresight: [snip] Foresight doesn't give you the knowledge of what spell is going to be cast or anything like that. I have noticed that a lot of people are misunderstanding the spell. Pretty much you are never surprised, flat-footed, an AC bonus and a bonus to Reflex saves. It doesn't give warning about something that is going to happen later. It is instantaneous. Say a rogue jumps out the bushes and is about to sneak attack you you are instantly aware of this. And whats to stop Elminster from summing a Solar, well he just happens to have a Gate spell memorized? And no Forsight will not inform him that he needs to memorize that spell. Foresight prevents you from being surprised, and gives you awareness of your enemies, which in turn can be used in determining whether the caster of foresight can act during a surprise round. Foresight also allows anyone who uses contingency or Elminsters evasion to escape a battle before it even begins if the trigger condition(s) consists of uttering a spoken word, since you can speak at any time, even during an opponents turn, as long as you are not surprised/flat-footed. As for the Gate spell, and why any epic level wizard would prepare it, among other things it is one of the most powerful spells in the Player's Handbook, if not in the game entirely. It is also the best spell in the PHB for planar travel, to which all of the Chosen are known to perform quite often. In addition the last rulebook to ever attempt to list Elminster's typical prepared spells was the Heroes Lorebook, which listed worldwalk as one of his memorized 9th level spells. IN 2E the gate spell had no ability to transport travelers, it simply summoned creatures. By contrast, worldwalk functioned almost exactly as the portal function of the gate spell. When 3E was created, these spells were merged into one single spell. Therefore there is justification under the logic of the game rules and the logic of the game lore for Elminster to prepare a gate spell on a regular bases.Well if all else Cadderly can summon Morwel Queen of the Eladrin, she is 39 hit die and there is no Chosen alive or dead that can defeat her. And all she would bring with her is her rapier and a cloak of charisma +6, other than that she would be butt naked. And another note on the Solar there is a spell that allows you to swap Hit points with another, the Solar would just swap his HP with Cadderly since the Solar regenerates all damage except for evil and epic, even spell damage he regenerates.As for Morwel, she falls under the same category as all other unique NPCS, as in she cannot be controlled for forced to answer the calling, and would be just as likely to slay Cadderly for calling her with that spell as she would be likely to refuse the gate all togetherIf you read the gate spell, it pulls them away from their plane and they listen to the caller. With the gate spell it doesn't give them a choice. Thats why it's a 9th level spell. Unfortunatly you can't make up rules to fit the situation.Unique creatures and Deities cannot be controlled for forced to appear.Probably have an easier time getting Asmodeus than Morwel... I could actually see him showing up just because it would amuse him to do so. Of course I could see a few avatars showing up to counter said arrival, but still...Cadderly cannot call him with a Gate spell, even if he was willing. A cleric cannot cast spells with an alignment descriptor opposed to that of their deity, and a Gate that calls an archdevil will carry the evil descriptor.You know I enjoy seeing someone beeten down as mecrylessly and efficiently as The Simbul does it, but after seeing her do it so many times as she has done here it kinda becomes hard to watch. I guess I've never been one for excessive brutality. Doesn't make her work any less badass though.I hardly "beat" anyone down, I am however trying to catch up on the discussion, and in having several pages of catching up to do I will have several long replies back to back. As for the thoroughness of my replies, it is because I do not like spending time replying to a topic only to have an issue I presented later questioned or twisted against my main point if it wasn't fully explained, without any room for caveats or misinterpretations. As for the rest; facts, figures, lore, and rules are hardly brutal....though apparently others here seem to have cause to believe such things are against the Code of Conduct. |
| BrennonGoldeye03-09-07, 09:47 AM | ...somewhere in Faerun, a Solar just soiled his waistcloth. :rofl: :bow: :clap: :bow: :rofl: Beyond that I don't think I could even hope to add something. |
| Alediran03-09-07, 01:48 PM | :rofl: :bow: :clap: :bow: :rofl: Beyond that I don't think I could even hope to add something. We are two. That line made me :rofl: Simbul rocks. |
| Stigger03-09-07, 04:55 PM | Heh, that was a fun read... :D Though just to clarify, I meant that Asmodeus comment to illustrate the sillyness of trying to summon Morwel... |
| Karsus the Mad03-09-07, 07:21 PM | You damn right it was necessary. Are smart ass comments, and comments trying to put people down necessary? No they're not, but they do happen. My advice is to ignore them. I've personally discovered that those who put others down are they themselves those that lack imagination. Second: DO NOT accept what they say as fact. I've recently discovered those who are "purists" are the utter worst to ask for facts, as "their facts" are hardly related to actual facts, but are instead nothing but thier own personal desires. They get all wierd and insulted when they are questioned, and then shut up when their gospel is proven wrong. My advice, truly, is to ignore anything they spout out of their butt. Then again, I haven't read any of your half-assed comments and have no clue what point you're trying to make. However, given the post of the other well standing members of these forums, I can only assume you're even more drunk than I am. For that, I pity you because I'm seriously ****-faced. |
| Lord_Lucien_Karsus_Necron03-09-07, 09:11 PM | I’m a bit of an ass myself and that was unnecessary assness. Listen Xun, just admit you were wrong. You have been told before that end of strife can’t be used in that manner. You are that player every DM hates. You come up with some hair brained scheme, by finding the literal definition that suits you best. When you know for a fact that is not the spirit of what the spell was intended to be interpreted! IE End of Strife! Cadderly is indeed powerful, but he would have a hard time with even the weakest Chosen let alone Elminster. Calling the Simbul a bad player, because she informed you of your inaccuracies makes you not only a bad player, but a bad person. I bet your all kinds of fun at parties! Are you that one upper guy as well? It’s ok to give people a hard time, but when you’re wrong, you’re wrong! Take a step back and analyze what you are saying. Maybe reread some of what you said and apologize. Or wait and think before you respond. Feel free to call me all kinds of names and report me to wizards. :D Have a nice day! |
| runestar03-15-07, 10:42 AM | Must construct shrine devoted to Simbul...:eek: My respect for Simbul just rose to new heights. To be able to construct such compelling arguments despite well knowing that you are essentially hurling them at a brick wall... Listen Xun, just admit you were wrong. You have been told before that end of strife can’t be used in that manner. You are that player every DM hates. You come up with some hair brained scheme, by finding the literal definition that suits you best. When you know for a fact that is not the spirit of what the spell was intended to be interpreted! IE End of Strife! Cadderly is indeed powerful, but he would have a hard time with even the weakest Chosen let alone Elminster. Calling the Simbul a bad player, because she informed you of your inaccuracies makes you not only a bad player, but a bad person. I bet your all kinds of fun at parties! Are you that one upper guy as well? It’s ok to give people a hard time, but when you’re wrong, you’re wrong! Take a step back and analyze what you are saying. Maybe reread some of what you said and apologize. Or wait and think before you respond. Feel free to call me all kinds of names and report me to wizards. Eh, get used to it. You should have seen the other thread in the prc section about the ultimate magus, where Xun kept going on "it can't be done" like a broken record even after it was proven repeatedly to him that it could be, and had been accomplished. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=780018 Deja vu, anyone? |
| ShadezofDis03-15-07, 12:31 PM | You damn right it was necessary. Are smart ass comments, and comments trying to put people down necessary? Where you seen "smart ass comments and comments trying to put people down" I see valid arguments backed up by published stats. Yes, Simbul is arguably condicending (note: I do not think this is at all intended, it's just how it reads because {IMO}you're acting like a 5 year old) towards you. You have earned this however, you STILL have not explained how Cadderly gets off a SINGLE DAMNED SPELL, where as the Simbul has given you several different examples where the Chosen mop the floor with Cadderly even if he were to win initiative. Anyhow, you have yet to prove any of your original statements to anyones satisfaction. In fact I haven't seen ANY PROOF what so ever, just half ***ed "He can cast X, Y and Z spell and roxorz da chosen!" Further, you have missrepresented spells left and right, showing just how much of an "expert" you are in D&D's magic system. |
| ShadezofDis03-15-07, 12:41 PM | Actually not so much, specifically since Cadderly doesn't have the opportunity to cast spells ahead of time when his enemies can sneak up on him, nor does he have the luxury of casting them when an enemy is within melee threat range. I'm running on the "Both combatants enter an arena that's 1000' diameter and cleared of everything" because there was no set situation. Ie. Cadderly gets a round or two of casting before the other can close (though there is ranged fire and with Cadderly's poor AC and no concentration would spell disaster for Cadderly and I'm assuming that both Dove and Storm have access to anti-magic field so Cadderly would have to be creative in his casting, should he be able to get a spell off despite ranged attacks. . . but. . . well, I guess him "doing better" against the more melee types would boil down to "he survives a couple more rounds") I'm also not very familiar with most WotC stats blocks because I have no use for them. (ie. I'm not terribly familiar with Dove's or Storm's abilities) One last bit, it isn't very big but it's there, Cadderly does have some experience with demons (specifically a particular imp) so he isn't TOTALLY ignorant about the planes. . . that said though, he certainly doesn't have a clue vs any of the Chosen. |
| Lord Karsus03-15-07, 04:47 PM | Eh, get used to it. You should have seen the other thread in the prc section about the ultimate magus, where Xun kept going on "it can't be done" like a broken record even after it was proven repeatedly to him that it could be, and had been accomplished. http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?t=780018 Deja vu, anyone? -Yep, just more of the same...:whatsthis |
| Alediran03-15-07, 05:53 PM | -Yep, just more of the same...:whatsthis I think that Xun is the Chosen of Grumbar. I've never knew somebody as hard as him. |
| BrennonGoldeye03-17-07, 09:07 PM | I think that Xun is the Chosen of Grumbar. I've never knew somebody as hard as him. Oh my, how naughty.:tissue: |
| Zsych03-17-07, 11:09 PM | Beyond her choosing to limit magic, I have no problems with Mystra. I'd prefer that the weaker magic was because of Karsus Folly breaking the Weave into the new Weave and the Shadow Weave, than ye old proliferator of magic is suppressing paths to human greatness(plus such bans make her look stupid, when despite her portfolios she needs to take such a measure) ... Naturally, its more a reaction to someone trying to limit me where I shouldn't be limited, even in a game, that's the annoyance. Otherwise, in general I approve of her basic desires(proliferation of magic, amounts to proliferation of technology and knowledge, of which I whole heartedly approve) -- Her Chosen... Not always interesting but okay. |
| Stigger03-18-07, 02:14 AM | Kinda liked those limits... makes pushing the edges of them more interesting to me. |
| The Simbul03-18-07, 03:50 AM | The Core Rules of D&D only had spell levels up to 9th. Spell "banned" by Mystra appeared either in sourcebooks for obscure and/or no longer supported non-FR campaign settings, or they appeared as over-the-top and no-longer-useable historical footnotes in Arcane Age Forgotten Realms supplements and briefly referenced. Mystra's Ban doesn't "limit" players, it serves as an in-game explanation for why standard D&D spell level progression stops at 9th in the first place, something that otherwise would need no explanation at all in any other campaign setting. |
| Zsych03-18-07, 06:36 AM | Indeed... so why not just have the explanation that the Weave is broken. Its less annoying sounding :) The old books didn't have epic spells or much support for other high level play either. |
| BrennonGoldeye03-18-07, 10:05 AM | It's not broken. It works exactly as it is supposed to.;) |
| GothicDan03-18-07, 12:38 PM | Mystra's Ban doesn't "limit" players, it serves as an in-game explanation for why standard D&D spell level progression stops at 9th in the first place, something that otherwise would need no explanation at all in any other campaign setting. Not quite, Simbul. Planescape and Dark Sun both had 10th+ level spells, and I think Greyhawk did, too. |
| Karsus the Mad03-18-07, 02:00 PM | The old books didn't have epic spells or much support for other high level play either. They were called true dweomers. It's not broken. It works exactly as it is supposed to.;) No it doesn't:P It's not broken, but it is in need of some maintanence. All those problems caused from two goddesses of magic dying and all that. |
| BrennonGoldeye03-18-07, 02:51 PM | Ah, let me rephrase. It works exactly as it is supposed to so the plan will come to fruition....:plotting: |
| Lord Karsus03-18-07, 11:38 PM | -Ah, Zsych...I was wondering where you had gotten off to just the other day. I must be unconsciously summoning you. With my power and all, I'm not surprised... |
| redmagefish03-19-07, 06:40 AM | there is no one problem with mystra there are more like 8 or 9 i would say>:rolleyes: |
| Zsych03-19-07, 07:02 AM | @LK: Just very busy. I'm currently taking a break from work so I can study some things(only I'm spending more time at forums than studying :)) -- As for Mystra and the Weave. If magic in Toril has ended up being the same as magic across the Planes, when orginally it wasn't(before Mystryl, and then even with Mystryl), then it may well be part of Ao's plan that things be this way :) |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek03-19-07, 11:00 AM | I think that Xun is the Chosen of Grumbar. I've never knew somebody as hard as him. What hard headed? Yeah all of my teachers and plus my parents and friends let me know that on a regular basis. |
| Lord Karsus03-19-07, 01:43 PM | What hard headed? Yeah all of my teachers and plus my parents and friends let me know that on a regular basis. -I never would have guessed that...:thumbsup: |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek03-19-07, 05:36 PM | Hey what can I say I am a hot-headed, hard headed, stubborn irish/american. Me grandfather was from Ireland so the blood runs very thick. |
| Alediran03-19-07, 08:19 PM | And I'm Spanish/Italian with one or two drops of South American natives' blood (that's probably the reason my family gets along with animals very well, we have druidic blood on our veins :D). I can adopt two completely opposite views and merge them together in a better one. |
| BrennonGoldeye03-20-07, 08:15 PM | Hey what can I say I am a hot-headed, hard headed, stubborn irish/american. Me grandfather was from Ireland so the blood runs very thick. Nothing can cure an inflated ego quite as well as a bad temper. ;) |
| GothicDan03-20-07, 08:23 PM | And by 'cure' you mean react with and cause a conflagration. |
| BrennonGoldeye03-20-07, 08:30 PM | Often yes. :D |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek03-20-07, 09:28 PM | Nothing can cure an inflated ego quite as well as a bad temper. ;) Thats true enough. :D |
| BrennonGoldeye03-21-07, 09:18 AM | I'm not sure but I think Xun, Dan, and myself agreeing on something is the third sign of the Apocalypse.;) |
| Karsus the Mad03-21-07, 09:22 AM | I'm not sure but I think Xun, Dan, and myself agreeing on something is the third sign of the Apocalypse.;) No, no. Only if you three agree on something about the Realms. |
| BrennonGoldeye03-21-07, 09:28 AM | Oh, I guess that means I can put the Vorpal back in storage.:v: |
| Lord Karsus03-21-07, 09:37 AM | -I don't see Dendar and Ubtao going at it, so that means one of two things. One, we are all safe, or, two, those myths were incorrect, and we are still all doomed, we just don't know it yet. |
| GothicDan03-21-07, 09:41 AM | Bren and I don't disagree that much, do we? Or maybe I just like him despite the fact that we disagree, since he's fairly level-headed and mature? Hmmm... |
| BrennonGoldeye03-21-07, 09:59 AM | Are you calling me old? :rofl: |
| Old Sage03-21-07, 10:03 AM | More importantly... you're calling him mature? :P ;) |
| ShadezofDis03-21-07, 10:16 AM | More importantly... you're calling him mature? :P ;) Well, Dan might just have a soft spot for furries. Love isn't love until it's fuzzy.:cool: :devil: |
| BrennonGoldeye03-21-07, 10:48 AM | :angelhide |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek03-21-07, 04:10 PM | I'm not sure but I think Xun, Dan, and myself agreeing on something is the third sign of the Apocalypse.;) So we would be the Three Horsemen of the Apocalypse? Hmmm that would be a grand adventure to run. |
| Lord Karsus03-21-07, 04:17 PM | -Where'd the Fourth Horseman go? :confused: |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek03-21-07, 04:34 PM | Well you and I have agreed on something before so you can be the fourth. |
| ShadezofDis03-21-07, 05:27 PM | So we would be the Three Horsemen of the Apocalypse? Hmmm that would be a grand adventure to run. Yeah, until you got wasted by one of Mystra's Chosen. :rimshot: |
| MaskedOne03-21-07, 05:39 PM | Xun is planning to bring Karsi in on the mix. If that occurs, opposition is my job. The younger Chosen just aren't ready for it. Of course, the dowside is that true and open conflict between the Karsi and I might shred Faerun, thereby bringing apocalypse and giving Shar her wish. |
| Lord Karsus03-21-07, 05:50 PM | Xun is planning to bring Karsi in on the mix. If that occurs, opposition is my job. The younger Chosen just aren't ready for it. Of course, the dowside is that true and open conflict between the Karsi and I might shred Faerun, thereby bringing apocalypse and giving Shar her wish. -Don't worry. Though no one may believe me, I have no intention of bringing the Apocalypse to Abeir-Toril. |
| MaskedOne03-21-07, 06:05 PM | Cool, as long as Xun doesn't get KtM in (doubtful) on this plot then I can probably leave it Mystra's younger agents. |
| Lord Karsus03-21-07, 06:22 PM | Cool, as long as Xun doesn't get KtM in (doubtful) on this plot then I can probably leave it Mystra's younger agents. -I don't forsee it either, so it looks like that burden is lifted from your shoulders. |
| MaskedOne03-21-07, 06:37 PM | Hmm, ever a perk. Mystra and Corellon will 'advise' the more irritable divine powers to stay out. I can get back to my real work, we're getting somewhere. * Wanders off muttering about something to do with Imaskar and idiots. * |
| BrennonGoldeye03-21-07, 08:09 PM | Yeah, until you got wasted by one of Mystra's Chosen. :rimshot: :rofl: :bow: :bounce: :bow: :rofl: ..oh my.. +10% XP for Shade for the rest of 2007. |
| Karsus the Mad03-21-07, 09:09 PM | Cool, as long as Xun doesn't get KtM in (doubtful) on this plot then I can probably leave it Mystra's younger agents. No need to worry there. Besides, we currently have a possible career choice in the works, if negotiations go well. |
| ShadezofDis03-22-07, 10:12 AM | :rofl: :bow: :bounce: :bow: :rofl: ..oh my.. +10% XP for Shade for the rest of 2007. w00t! I'll get 1st level anyday now! (Note: YES! That's how old school I am, I'm training up to taking a class {insert word for a female dog}!) |
| XunValDorl of HouseKilsek03-22-07, 11:36 PM | Yeah, until you got wasted by one of Mystra's Chosen. :rimshot: *laughs* Dude Xun the actual character would wipe the floor with the Chosen. I promise you I am not shaking in my boots. |
| Lord Karsus03-22-07, 11:53 PM | :shifty: -So...How 'bout those Mets, eh? Looks like Ollie Perez has his stuff back, and Mike Pelfrey is going to be the "next big thing"... |
| GothicDan03-23-07, 07:05 AM | Oh, look. I just made a 40th level character that can wipe the floor with Mystra's Chosen. I feel accomplished. :D |
| Stigger03-23-07, 07:16 AM | Feh, go with an 87th level one, then you get that nice and tidy 90 maximum for skill ranks. Makes adding much easier when you go with levels ending in 2's and 7's. |
| BrennonGoldeye03-23-07, 07:18 AM | Just call him butter, cause Dan's on a roll.;) |
| Alediran03-23-07, 09:35 AM | Weak character. I have one that controls all Overgods from all crystal spheres. |
| Lord Karsus03-23-07, 10:24 AM | [Internal Monologue]-Man, how can I top all that? Dan has a 40th level character, Stigger has an 87th level one, and Alediran has created the force that controls all overgods...Wait, I know![/Internal Monologue] -I'm Ed Greenwood and Gary Gygax rolled into one! Really...:shifty: |
| Alediran03-23-07, 11:03 AM | [Internal Monologue]-Man, how can I top all that? Dan has a 40th level character, Stigger has an 87th level one, and Alediran has created the force that controls all overgods...Wait, I know![/Internal Monologue] -I'm Ed Greenwood and Gary Gygax rolled into one! Really...:shifty: Then I'll take my other character, the one who created everything, the original begining. |
| ShadezofDis03-23-07, 12:03 PM | Psh, whatever ya'll. I'm the DM. :P |
| Alediran03-23-07, 12:43 PM | I create DMs |
| Karsus the Mad03-23-07, 01:16 PM | [Internal Monologue]-Man, how can I top all that? Dan has a 40th level character, Stigger has an 87th level one, and Alediran has created the force that controls all overgods...Wait, I know![/Internal Monologue] -I'm Ed Greenwood and Gary Gygax rolled into one! Really...:shifty: Such minor dreams. I'm the imaginary DM that allows Xun to ignore logic and commonsense. Can't beat that! Besides, I have a 97th level NPC in the works (which is 100% true....for my own setting..........) Actually, I put his mental age at about......between 9-13. |
| Lord Karsus03-23-07, 02:15 PM | Such minor dreams. I'm the imaginary DM that allows Xun to ignore logic and commonsense. Can't beat that! -Mm, good point. -Oh yeah, well I am also Alediran and Shadez, so therefore, I am also their characters. I am also KtM, because that's just how we work. -Just call me the BORG... |
| GothicDan03-23-07, 02:18 PM | Mr. BORG, what is your last name? |
| Alediran03-23-07, 02:23 PM | Mr. BORG, what is your last name? I belive it is ASM. Distant relative of Scro from the clan tum (:rofl:) |
| Lord Karsus03-23-07, 02:32 PM | Mr. BORG, what is your last name? -Martinez. The names BORG Martinez, Private Eye. :incog: I belive it is ASM. Distant relative of Scro from the clan tum (:rofl:) -I don't get it...:( -Wait, never mind. I got it. Took me a few seconds...;) |
| Stigger03-23-07, 02:41 PM | :blink: This thread is kinda scaring me now... |
| GothicDan03-23-07, 02:47 PM | I'm totally going to bed now. |
| Alediran03-23-07, 03:19 PM | I'm totally going to bed now. I don't know how you can stay awake all those hours, my longest run was just 40 hours. |
| Karsus the Mad03-23-07, 04:08 PM | I don't know how you can stay awake all those hours, my longest run was just 40 hours. You should try staying awake for 4 days, 13 hours, and 52 minutes. That's when I totally cracked and became what I am today: the Archwizard! |
| Stigger03-23-07, 06:29 PM | 68 hours was my longest run... not going to go into the circumstances of that, not sure if it's prosecutable still. :D |
| BrennonGoldeye03-23-07, 09:29 PM | Hey Hey Hey I go away for a few hours and all the sudden you kids get big pant's.:ahem: As far as this thread is concerned I am the DM.:dice: This avatar also earned 49th level and has adventured for over 17 Terran years.:plotting: Went through 5 DM's all of whom loved every minute. :evillaugh Behave. Geez...:rolleyes: |
| Stigger03-24-07, 01:32 AM | Think you lost control of this thread a while back there Bren... :P |
| Lord Karsus03-25-07, 11:27 PM | -You know, I haven't seen LLKN around lately. Bren, that your handiwork? |
| BrennonGoldeye03-26-07, 07:20 AM | -You know, I haven't seen LLKN around lately. Bren, that your handiwork? Muhahahahaha!:evillaugh |
| Karsus the Mad03-26-07, 07:38 AM | Muhahahahaha!:evillaugh Is that an admission of guilt? <hands a pouch of gold> Good job:incog: . |
| Alediran03-26-07, 08:50 AM | Another Karsus' Clone Bites the Dust. |
| Lord Karsus03-26-07, 04:29 PM | Muhahahahaha!:evillaugh -See, this is why you are my favorite servitor. A paid week of vacation for you! Another Karsus' Clone Bites the Dust. -One down, twelve to go...:rolleyes: |
| kaor03-26-07, 10:45 PM | This gets me about the Forgotten Realms. Mystra and her chosen are all. Why haven't we seen a chosen of Tempus? Ilmater? Hoar? Loviatar? Torm? Gond? Kossuth? Helm? Tyr? Why? What is there in this setting besides the chosen? Erevis Cale is the only one in a while that's lasted longer than one trilogy. Drizzt sells, so he has a spot. Other than that... Give Cadderly a decent writer of stats. One that would make a powergamer scream. The chosen of Deneir should have an EFFECTIVE chosen template. And 20 more levels so he can compete with all the other superheroes. And Fabio should be his body model in the novel covers. Then let's see what the Simbul can do with him, besides lick his nipple rings. (BTW I notice no one used the spontaneous turning feats from CD in the first 3 or 4 pages.) Then talk about matchups. |
| kaor03-26-07, 10:53 PM | Oh yeah, and add a chosen of Sune. One that makes Elminster look like an old man with diabetes. You know, pops into a wood elf village, in the course of events... Hmmm if the chosen were female... |
| Lord Karsus03-26-07, 11:02 PM | Why haven't we seen a chosen of Tempus? Ilmater? Hoar? Loviatar? Torm? Gond? Kossuth? Helm? Tyr? Why? -There are plenty of other Chosen. What is there in this setting besides the chosen? -Plenty of reasons. Give Cadderly a decent writer of stats. One that would make a powergamer scream. The chosen of Deneir should have an EFFECTIVE chosen template. And 20 more levels so he can compete with all the other superheroes. And Fabio should be his body model in the novel covers. Then let's see what the Simbul can do with him, besides lick his nipple rings. (BTW I notice no one used the spontaneous turning feats from CD in the first 3 or 4 pages.) Then talk about matchups. -Well, there's no reason to, being as that Cadderly is the Chosen of a relativley minor deity, and thus, is not supposed to be the "Be all, end all". |
| Alediran03-26-07, 11:12 PM | -Well, there's no reason to, being as that Cadderly is the Chosen of a relativley minor deity, and thus, is not supposed to be the "Be all, end all". :incog: Wach out, I found information that tells me he is either Xun or a clone of him. |
| kaor03-26-07, 11:33 PM | Y'know in the early parts of this thread a couple people posted a quote from some Wotc product or another stating that serving a lesser god didn't diminish your power. And as far as I know there are only chosen of: Mystra (9? 8?), Deneir(1), Mielikki (1, no stats), Bane (1), and Malar? You might say the seraph of lies is the chosen of Cyric, but no stats, no template, no way to wave the dong other than words. Edit: Add Cale, can't believe I forgot him. Though where are his stats published? Maybe a novel addition? Here's a point: The Forgotten Realms have their own Justice League, E and the Seven Sisters (Who he has probably all slept with, for whatever reason, just saying). What possible realm shaking event wouldn't draw their attention? And why does AO countenance a deity that is more powerful than all other deities put together, than himself? Mystra is the greatest of gods. No other god could exist if she didn't wish it, except for well, AO. No magic, no worshippers. No god but Mystra. And that would include Shar, though I'm curious why she didn't think about a shadow weave eons ago. Quote: Originally Posted by kaor View Post What is there in this setting besides the chosen? -Plenty of reasons. I'd bet their are more words written about how many illegitimate children Elminster has had than have been references to Peirgeion Paladinson or the Rulers of the Moonshaes in the past 10 years or so. I would have said the King of Damara, but y'know Salvatore and all... Well anyway. Just passing through. Come up with a good response and I may reply. Otherwise, C'ya. |
| kaor03-26-07, 11:36 PM | -Well, there's no reason to, being as that Cadderly is the Chosen of a relativley minor deity, and thus, is not supposed to be the "Be all, end all". So who is the "Be all, end all?" I have my suspicions. |
| Old Sage03-26-07, 11:48 PM | And as far as I know there are only chosen of: Mystra (9? 8?), Deneir(1), Mielikki (1, no stats), Bane (1), and Malar? You might say the seraph of lies is the chosen of Cyric, but no stats, no template, no way to wave the dong other than words.The only Chosen templates currently published are those for Mystra, Bane, Malar, and Deneir. The Chosen of Mystra is located in the FRCS -- pg. 247. The Chosen of Bane is referenced in Faiths & Pantheons -- pg. 213. The Chosen of Malar appeared in DUNGEON #129 as I recall. And the Chosen of Deneir is detailed here at WotC, in the FR Novels archive. In 2e, the three Chosen of Silvanus/Mielikki/Eldath are stat'd in the Vilhon Reach sourcebook, and some of Amlaruil's powers as the Chosen of the Seldarine are stat'd in the Evermeet sourcebook. And while we don't have their exact templates... Shuruppak has been stat'd in both 2e and 3e -- Powers & Pantheons and Epic Level Handbook respectively. Malik (2e) was covered in DRAGON #245. Qilue (2e) is detailed in the Heroes' Lorebook. Slarkrathel (3e) is stat'd in Lords of Darkness. Pil'it'ith (3e) is from Serpent Kingdoms. Also, Paul provided Cale's 3e stats over at Candlekeep:- http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/erevis.htm Here's a point: ... (Who he has probably all slept with, for whatever reason, just saying).That isn't exactly the case. And for future reference:- In order to have a point, you often need to support it with facts. You should try it some time. I'd bet their are more words written about how many illegitimate children Elminster has...I rather doubt that. From Ed - "Over his thousand-some years of lusty living, hes sired quite a few offspring, though not nearly as many as he would have done if Mystra hadnt been applying her silent youre one of my Chosen, and I dont want you to father anyone just now, so heres my birth control powers so often." And - "Let me just note that MYSTRA decides when or if any of her Chosen will cause children, and if any such offspring will have any aptitude for magic or become Chosen." |
| Zevox03-27-07, 12:27 AM | Give Cadderly a decent writer of stats. One that would make a powergamer scream. The chosen of Deneir should have an EFFECTIVE chosen template. And 20 more levels so he can compete with all the other superheroes. Um, Cadderly is the Chosen of a God of Glyphs, Images, Literature, Scribes, and Cartography. Hes not supposed to be an effective warrior - thats not the type of servant Deneir requires. Much like Oghma's Chosen, Sephris, is gifted only with the ability to think in a way no one else could. Very much so to the benefit of Oghma and his doctrine, but likely useless in battle. Doesn't make him a poor Chosen (in fact, I'd say it makes him one of the best, and certainly one of the most interesting), just a poor combatant. And as far as I know there are only chosen of: Mystra (9? 8?), Deneir(1), Mielikki (1, no stats), Bane (1), and Malar? You might say the seraph of lies is the chosen of Cyric, but no stats, no template, no way to wave the dong other than words. Edit: Add Cale, can't believe I forgot him. Though where are his stats published? Maybe a novel addition? Malik is indeed a Chosen of Cyric, since 3.Xe makes Seraphs the same thing as Chosen. But since you know so few Chosen, heres a list of all the known cannon ones: Bane Fzoul Chembryl Cyric Malik el Sami yn Nasser (Seraph of Lies) Deneir Cadderly Bonaduce Peretlope (deceased) Eilistraee Quile Veladorn (one of the 7 sisters) Eldath Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Erevan Ilesere Fox-at-Twilight Gilgleam Shuruppak (ExChosen after Gilgleam's death) Kelemvor Avner of Hartsvale (Seraph of Death, Ex-Chosen) Labelas Enoreth Vartan Hai Sylver Lathander Jherek of Velen (uncertain) Lolth Liriel Baenre (uncertain, possible Ex-Chosen) The Lady Penitant Malar Anth-Malar Mask Kesson Rel Avner of Hartsvale (Seraph of Thieves) Erevis Cale Drasek Riven Merrshaulk/Sseth Pil'it'ith (Ex-Chosen) Mielikki Jeryth Phaulkon Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Mystra Elminster Aumar Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun (deceased) The Simbul Storm Silverhand Sylunč Silverhand Laeral Silverhand Alustriel Silverhand Dove Falconhand Quile Veladorn The Srinshee Symrustar Auglamyr (missing, possibly deceased) Embrae Aloevan (deceased) Sammaster (undead, ex-Chosen) Noumea Drathchuld (ex-Magister) Alvaerele Tasundrym (ex-Magister) Nadrathen, the Rebel Chosen (deceased). Oghma Sephris Dwendon Sehanine Moonbow Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep The Seldarine (elven pantheon) Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet Ilyrana Shar Underdark said she has one, but name and race wasn't given. Silvanus Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Talona The Rotting man (Unapproachable East) Ubtao Alisandra Rayburton Dhlamass Rayburton Ras Ni Fipya Kwalu Mainu Ossaw I Umberlee Slarkrathel Here's a point: The Forgotten Realms have their own Justice League, E and the Seven Sisters (Who he has probably all slept with, for whatever reason, just saying). What possible realm shaking event wouldn't draw their attention? They can't be everywhere at once, you know. Theres far more high-power villains out there than there are Chosen of Mystra, and not all of the Chosen are very active (when was the last time Quile was involved with her sisters in something? Or Sylunč?). The Chosen can't fix everything in the Realms. They know this, so they don't try. Obvious monumental crises, like the Time of Troubles or the environmental crisis the Shadovar were causing by melting the High Ice, will get their attention, yes, but theres plenty of things that can and do go beneath their notice. For example, they were totally blind to the actions of Vhostym, whose power dwarfed theirs and who could easily have caused a lot more trouble for the world if he'd had a mind to do so. Is it so inconceivable then that they won't be aware of every major event that could threaten the Realms? I don't think so, personally. Mystra is the greatest of gods. No other god could exist if she didn't wish it, except for well, AO. No magic, no worshippers. No magic, no worshippers. No god but Mystra. And that would include Shar, though I'm curious why she didn't think about a shadow weave eons ago. Um, and how do you propose Mystra strip the other Gods of their magic? She could prevent all their worshipers from casting spells, but it would be incredibly taxing on her (thats probably millions of priests you're talking about). She could prevent their avatars from accessing the Weave while they're on the Prime or in Dweomerheart, but any of them with the Alter Reality SDA (which is most of them, if I'm not mistaken) can just duplicate the effects of the mortal magic thats tied to that with their divine powers. She can't do anything to them while they're anywhere else. As for Shar and the Shadow Weave, thats a whole other kettle of fish. Its not clear when that came into being, or if Shar created it or simply discovered and took control of it. Theres conflicting statements as to both of those. In any event, the lore does agree that the Shadow Weave has existed for eons - the most recent date for its creation was the fall of Netheril, and more lore contradicts that than backs it up. So who is the "Be all, end all?" I have my suspicions. No one, unless you count Ao. Zevox |
| Krash03-27-07, 12:41 AM | Here's a point: The Forgotten Realms have their own Justice League, E and the Seven Sisters (Who he has probably all slept with, for whatever reason, just saying). What possible realm shaking event wouldn't draw their attention? El and the Seven Sisters are not the Justice League of FR. They are not out and out do-gooders. They do not protect and promote the interests of the 'greater good' Faerūn-wide. They care (and take an active interest) in things that affect them, their friends, their family, magic and Mystra. Yes, some of those things might intersect with the 'greater good' but many do not. That's why they can adopt a "live and let (un)live" attitude with personages such as Larloch, Klauth, Daurgathoth, the zulkirs of Thay, the Zhentarim, the Twisted Rune, the Rundeen, and a host of others. Like everyone, there is a healthy dose of self-interest in their meddling. They do not care about everything that happens on the face of Faerūn. -- George Krashos |
| Lord Karsus03-27-07, 09:04 AM | So who is the "Be all, end all?" I have my suspicions. -Nobody. There shouldn't be a "Be all and end all". There really isn't one, either. |
| Stigger03-27-07, 09:04 AM | Yeah, but if you view them as intended, what's there to complain about with them? ;) |
| Lord Karsus03-27-07, 09:05 AM | Malik is indeed a Chosen of Cyric, since 3.Xe makes Seraphs the same thing as Chosen. But since you know so few Chosen, heres a list of all the known cannon ones: Bane Fzoul Chembryl Cyric Malik el Sami yn Nasser (Seraph of Lies) Deneir Cadderly Bonaduce Peretlope (deceased) Eilistraee Quile Veladorn (one of the 7 sisters) Eldath Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Erevan Ilesere Fox-at-Twilight Gilgleam Shuruppak (ExChosen after Gilgleam's death) Kelemvor Avner of Hartsvale (Seraph of Death, Ex-Chosen) Labelas Enoreth Vartan Hai Sylver Lathander Jherek of Velen (uncertain) Lolth Liriel Baenre (uncertain, possible Ex-Chosen) The Lady Penitant Malar Anth-Malar Mask Kesson Rel Avner of Hartsvale (Seraph of Thieves) Erevis Cale Drasek Riven Merrshaulk/Sseth Pil'it'ith (Ex-Chosen) Mielikki Jeryth Phaulkon Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Mystra Elminster Aumar Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun (deceased) The Simbul Storm Silverhand Sylunč Silverhand Laeral Silverhand Alustriel Silverhand Dove Falconhand Quile Veladorn The Srinshee Symrustar Auglamyr (missing, possibly deceased) Embrae Aloevan (deceased) Sammaster (undead, ex-Chosen) Noumea Drathchuld (ex-Magister) Alvaerele Tasundrym (ex-Magister) Nadrathen, the Rebel Chosen (deceased). Oghma Sephris Dwendon Sehanine Moonbow Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep The Seldarine (elven pantheon) Queen Amlaruil of Evermeet Ilyrana Shar Underdark said she has one, but name and race wasn't given. Silvanus Ashenford Torinbow Lady Shadowmoon Crystalembers Shinthala Deepcrest Talona The Rotting man (Unapproachable East) Ubtao Alisandra Rayburton Dhlamass Rayburton Ras Ni Fipya Kwalu Mainu Ossaw I Umberlee Slarkrathel -There is also the Chosen of Gzimnid, Skixtalq. Everyone always forgets poor Skixtalq... |
| ShadezofDis03-27-07, 09:37 AM | -Nobody. There shouldn't be a "Be all and end all". There really isn't one, either. This type of reasoning is exactly why I decided to become a Hand of Karsis :) I see a VERY good reason for the Chosen to keep more to themselves than be a JL of FR, they have to be VERY careful not to expose themselves to the various orginizations that might like to; Take them out. Capture them for leverage/research. or whatever other fel purposes they can think of. Anytime one of the Chosen is in a spell battle they have to keep in the back of thier head the thought that at any second one of thier other rivals may just show up and start blasting away. And really, that goes for pretty much any high powered mage. |
| Zevox03-27-07, 06:52 PM | -There is also the Chosen of Gzimnid, Skixtalq. Everyone always forgets poor Skixtalq... *blinks* Who? Sheesh, I can't even pronounce those names. Is that a joke? Zevox |
| Lord Karsus03-27-07, 06:56 PM | *blinks* Who? Sheesh, I can't even pronounce those names. Is that a joke? Zevox -No, Gumwaddius and Amoebus, the Chosen of Ghaunaduar are a joke. Skixtalq, the Chosen of Gzimnid, is not a joke. He is mentioned in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, in the entry for...Ootal (Sp?). Crazy Beholders, and their crazy names... |
| Zevox03-27-07, 06:58 PM | -No, Gumwaddius and Amoebus, the Chosen of Ghaunaduar are a joke. Skixtalq, the Chosen of Gzimnid, is not a joke. He is mentioned in Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark, in the entry for...Ootal (Sp?). Crazy Beholders, and their crazy names... Ah, Beholder. That'd explain it. They have weirder names than Dragons do. Zevox |
| Lord Karsus03-27-07, 07:02 PM | Ah, Beholder. That'd explain it. They have weirder names than Dragons do. Zevox -Eh, it's not that hard to pronounce when you look at it for a few seconds. It just looks intimidating: S-Kicks-Tal-K |
| Markustay03-27-07, 08:27 PM | 7 Sisters= JLA :D :rofl: So.... who's Hawkgirl? And when can I 'fly' her? ;) |
| BrennonGoldeye03-27-07, 09:23 PM | That would probably be Alassra, what with the shapechanging and all. You are more than welcome to attempt preflight boarding. I've been needing a new pair of boots.:P P.S. Just in case, I call a spot as The Gold Lantern. |
| MaskedOne03-28-07, 07:23 PM | Give Cadderly a decent writer of stats. One that would make a powergamer scream. The chosen of Deneir should have an EFFECTIVE chosen template. And 20 more levels so he can compete with all the other superheroes. And Fabio should be his body model in the novel covers. Then let's see what the Simbul can do with him, besides lick his nipple rings. (BTW I notice no one used the spontaneous turning feats from CD in the first 3 or 4 pages.) Then talk about matchups. Shrug, feel free to provide Cadderly with half-competent stats. I'd welcome it though his overly sheltered background does not justify an extra 10, let alone 20 levels. Understand however, that the instant homebrew stats for Cadderly are provided, anyone arguing on behalf of the Chosen of Mystra has every right to either create or aquire and use as basis for argument any set of homebrew stats they choose. You don't get to rule that one party needs a stat re-write unless your opponents get to do the same. If you consider that worth the effort, then cool, enjoy. Hmm, notably since Cadderly's Chosen template is theoretically of equivalent worth under WotC's system to that used by the Chosen of Mystra, raising Cadderly to a level 40 (by adding 20 levels) character is not putting him on par with the Chosen. It's deliberately tilting the field by granting him a character level exceeded only among humans by Ioulaum, Karsus and depending on whether we're official or going by Greenwood, Larloch (to my immediate knowledge, too lazy to doublecheck). I.E. try it and I reserve the right to increase the level of either the Simbul or El for personal amusement, not by 20 but then I wouldn't need to make a drastic level jump for them. Not that it matters because for all intents and purposes, Cadderly's background might barely justify raising him to level 25, it sure as hell doesn't justify raising him to level 40. Cadderly is not meant to be a match in raw power for Mystra's senior Chosen. Heck, all things considered, background wise, Manshoon can shred him for amusement and in terms of personal power, Manshoon is formidable but he ain't one of the heavyweights not when compared to say Larloch, Szass Tam's predecessor or Shoon. |
| BrennonGoldeye03-28-07, 08:45 PM | Whose got the sexiest mask in Faerun? Hmm. :ayyyy!: |
| Stigger03-28-07, 08:57 PM | Whose got the sexiest mask in Faerun? Hmm. :ayyyy!: Lady Yhelbruna of Rashemen. :P |
| Lord Karsus03-29-07, 10:20 AM | -She is looking good nowadays. A bit too young for me, what, with me being a few thousand years old and all, but still. Let's just say that if she ever mentioned she was interested in older men, I'd be there. ;) |
| MaskedOne03-29-07, 11:12 AM | It depends on what type of mood Sharess is in. If she bothers with a mask then she tends to top the list. Only problem, is she doesn't normally bother so more often than not she isn't a valid comparison. |
| Stigger03-29-07, 03:15 PM | Dunno... that illustration of Eldath in F&P made me think about becoming a pacifist. As to the age thing, once you're over 50, it stops mattering as much when you're human... or as close to human as Karsii get. ;) |
| Lord Karsus03-29-07, 05:11 PM | As to the age thing, once you're over 50, it stops mattering as much when you're human... or as close to human as Karsii get. ;) -We're still fully, 100%, Human...I think. |
| Stigger03-29-07, 05:26 PM | Suppose... that whole divine moment could have changed things some though... you could be just be particularly large gnomes nowadays. Can't really say until we do the vivisectioning. :D |
| Lord Karsus03-29-07, 05:30 PM | Suppose... that whole divine moment could have changed things some though... you could be just be particularly large gnomes nowadays. Can't really say until we do the vivisectioning. :D -Vivisection, eh? Well, not this aspect. KtM will probably agree with me when I say that neither of these aspects will be going under the knife. Hell, we don't even have actual bodies. We just kind of...exist. |
| Stigger03-29-07, 09:11 PM | That's what spells are for... Ghost touch scalpels, etcetera and so forth... where there's magic and a will, there's a way. As you should well know... :evillaugh |
| Lord Karsus03-29-07, 11:18 PM | That's what spells are for... Ghost touch scalpels, etcetera and so forth... where there's magic and a will, there's a way. As you should well know... :evillaugh -I'll make sure I have an agent of mine watching you at all times...;) |
| MaskedOne03-30-07, 12:25 AM | Why? It's not as if he's walking through a dozen linked mythal variants to get to your stationary fragments and if your active fragments can't hold him off then I'm gonna be a little worried. * Velshy, oh Velshy, have an artifact for you to cement the enchantments on and need a location. incoherent muttering from a divinity of necromancy Velshy, you know full well the terms of your alliance with divine scream Mystra. She will be most displeased if you get broken for ignoring them. Good Velshy * There should be a cloak somewhere around your feet Stigger that protects against nearly all mortal divination and the divinatory abilities of many though not all (no greater powers) gods. Don't mind the screams, Velshy just needed certain remedial lessons. |
| Lord Karsus03-30-07, 12:45 AM | -I guess ol' bag-o-bones has enough flesh on him that he still has working vocal cords, eh? |
| MaskedOne03-30-07, 01:03 AM | He manages the silliest things when motivated and well, he was warned that attempting to assault me was unwise. Mostly though, he still has Thayan pride and therefore likes having a voice to make speeches with. |
| Lord Karsus03-30-07, 01:10 AM | -Does anyone even listen? Mind you, I still haven't been invited to any of those "Town Hall"-style meetings over at the Cynosure. |
| MaskedOne03-30-07, 01:18 AM | Normally, I listen. Mainly because there stringent rules applied to his protection from Talos and I can't touch him if he behaves. His endless gloating tends to be a decent marker on when he's fair game. |
| Stigger03-30-07, 01:49 AM | Hmmm.. thanks. Could be handy... though I'm not so foolish as to put it on without some thorough examinations first... okay, well, maybe almost that foolish, but not quite enough. :D |
| BrennonGoldeye03-30-07, 07:45 AM | :tiphat: Hi there Stigger. Whatcha doin? ;) |
| ShadezofDis03-30-07, 12:05 PM | :tiphat: Hi there Stigger. Whatcha doin? ;) ::Yawns:: Since you got first watch I'll take a nap, when you get tired just let me know :plotting: |
| Alediran03-30-07, 02:27 PM | OOC: Boring day, and rains like hell. IC: That young whippersnaper of Velshy, I was a full fledged wizard before he was born. And like all humans, he has no patience to learn when you can become a god or not. |
| MaskedOne03-30-07, 04:01 PM | OOC: Boring day, and rains like hell. IC: That young whippersnaper of Velshy, I was a full fledged wizard before he was born. And like all humans, he has no patience to learn when you can become a god or not. Shrug, many were archwizards before Velshy was born. Heck, I was an archwizard over 1000 years before Karsus was born and I'm human (well sort-of). Pre-dating Velshy isn't all that special other than it means that I knew of his ascencion method and tinkered with it before he was born. It's nice to have backdoors into his power. My actual allies have better things to do than play superbattery for me. Velshy doesn't. |
| Stigger03-30-07, 05:16 PM | Just fine Brennon... sick, in pain, but otherwise just peachy. :D |
| BrennonGoldeye03-30-07, 11:13 PM | He got up to take a potion about 3 hours ago. Not much since then. Your turn Shadez, I've got research and then a crazy persian to deal with. :fett: <get better soon Stigger!> |
| Lord Karsus03-30-07, 11:24 PM | Just fine Brennon... sick, in pain, but otherwise just peachy. :D -Just so you know, I have nothing to do with you being sick and/or in pain...:shifty: ;) :P |
| Yanagita Kunio03-30-07, 11:41 PM | If you don't mind me asking--who is Gziminid? |
| Lord Karsus03-30-07, 11:50 PM | If you don't mind me asking--who is Gziminid? -The Beholder deity of Gases, Obscurement, and Deception. |
| Old Sage03-31-07, 12:18 AM | Yan, see pg. 125 of Drizzt Do'Urden's Guide to the Underdark. |
| Lord Karsus03-31-07, 12:21 AM | -Gzimnid's entry is in Monster Mythology, on Pg. 71. The information about his Chosen is in DDGttU. |
| Old Sage03-31-07, 12:42 AM | 'Tis "Gzemnid". And there are references to this particular beholder deity in DDGttU as well, including through Skixtalq the Obscurant's entry on pg. 125. See On Hallowed Ground also. |
| Stigger03-31-07, 04:21 AM | I am aware you had nothing to do with me being sick and in pain LK. For that I blame the evil that is my spouse... well, the for sick part anyway. Not sure what to blame the pain on besides bad genetics. ;) :P |
| Lord Karsus03-31-07, 05:44 PM | I am aware you had nothing to do with me being sick and in pain LK. For that I blame the evil that is my spouse... well, the for sick part anyway. Not sure what to blame the pain on besides bad genetics. ;) :P -A spouse, eh? Good luck with that. Even the mighty Karsus knows to pick and choose his battles, and he never associates with 'spouses', for they are mighty, mighty creatures, even more feared and powerful than Phaerimm... |
| BrennonGoldeye03-31-07, 09:51 PM | -A spouse, eh? Good luck with that. Even the mighty Karsus knows to pick and choose his battles, and he never associates with 'spouses', for they are mighty, mighty creatures, even more feared and powerful than Phaerimm... :mymy: Now that is a thread best left unposted.:mymy: I fear that if the full spirit of the spouse were let loose there would be no end to the torment. Let us bless them instead so that they might leave us to our own plans for the hours that they allow.........:bow: |
| BrennonGoldeye03-31-07, 09:52 PM | I said Bless Them!!! I'll take 1/3 salary for the Month. |
| Lord Karsus03-31-07, 10:52 PM | I said Bless Them!!! I'll take 1/3 salary for the Month. -Give me a second, jeeze. I won't take anything out of your pay for that, just so you know. That would be mean and uncalled for. -Stigger, the great Karsus blesses your marriage, and he hopes that it bears many fruits, most of which you are not allergic to. -How's that? |
| BrennonGoldeye04-01-07, 09:58 AM | The spouse says it will do, for now.;) |
| Stigger04-01-07, 12:36 PM | Spouse says it is good to fear her... and that you show wisdom in doing so. Besides, a lot of her characters can beat the crap out of mine, but she's had (nearly) 16 years of marriage to figure out how to kick the crap out of me, in game or otherwise. :D |
| ShadezofDis04-01-07, 11:12 PM | Due to certain comments in the last couple posts Shadez will not be making an appearance. Our couch sucks to sleep on... |
| Stigger04-02-07, 12:34 AM | Heh, probably smart |
| ShadezofDis04-02-07, 09:59 AM | Heh, probably smart And now that I'm at work Not smart my friend, wise is the word ;D |
| Lord Karsus04-02-07, 10:55 AM | Spouse says it is good to fear her... and that you show wisdom in doing so. Besides, a lot of her characters can beat the crap out of mine, but she's had (nearly) 16 years of marriage to figure out how to kick the crap out of me, in game or otherwise. :D -Heh, I didn't get to where I am today (being a 41st level Arcanist and a pseudodeity) insulting women. You do stuff like that, and you won't make it past 5th level, and cleaning toilets. -Man, you're lucky. You have a signifigant other who enjoys playing D&D with you. My girlfriend plays D&D, but she likes the "faeries, butterflies and zebras and moonbeams" kind of games. I'm more of a political intrigue, deep-immersion kind of guy. When we play together, depending on the DM, one of us is usually not having much fun... |
| GothicDan04-02-07, 11:12 AM | Zebras?! |
| Lord Karsus04-02-07, 12:46 PM | Zebras?! -You remember the talking Giraffe thread, don't you? :P -No, "Butterflies and Zebras and Moonbeams" are lyrics from a song. |
| Stigger04-02-07, 02:57 PM | Wise would probably be a better word, you are right, I stand corrected. :D Well, something is better than nothing I guess... though maybe if you have some of those intrigues threatening those zebras and butterflies you could drag her into the heavier aspects of the game semi-willingly. |
| Lord Karsus04-02-07, 04:10 PM | Well, something is better than nothing I guess... though maybe if you have some of those intrigues threatening those zebras and butterflies you could drag her into the heavier aspects of the game semi-willingly. -I'm trying to do that, but she is just a..."bubbly" person, when it comes to Fantasy, anyway. I guess that's the right word. |
| BrennonGoldeye04-02-07, 08:40 PM | Get her to play a vampire. You'll both love it. I promise.:D |
| ShadezofDis04-02-07, 11:35 PM | -I'm trying to do that, but she is just a..."bubbly" person, when it comes to Fantasy, anyway. I guess that's the right word. And it'd probably be wrong to create a dire need for vengence against an unseely . . . tribe? pack? gaggle?. . . for the massacre of a pixie family that played "home base" for the PC's. . . especially if the unseely were the baddies of the last few months. ... :devil: |
| ShadezofDis04-02-07, 11:52 PM | Get her to play a vampire. You'll both love it. I promise.:D You're a bad man. I like ya, but you're bad. |
| Lord Karsus04-03-07, 12:32 AM | Get her to play a vampire. You'll both love it. I promise.:D -If you say so. You'd never steer me wrong...Would you? ;) And it'd probably be wrong to create a dire need for vengence against an unseely . . . tribe? pack? gaggle?. . . for the massacre of a pixie family that played "home base" for the PC's. . . especially if the unseely were the baddies of the last few months. ... :devil: -Actually, that is what I am slowly doing. An Imp that she accidentally freed, and a group of Unseelie Faeries are sewing evil plant seeds in the forest, causing them to eat the Sylvan creatures there, and what not. |
| ShadezofDis04-03-07, 09:56 AM | -Actually, that is what I am slowly doing. An Imp that she accidentally freed, and a group of Unseelie Faeries are sewing evil plant seeds in the forest, causing them to eat the Sylvan creatures there, and what not. Wonderful :) If it's a lower level campaign (and I assume you typically don't run the 15-20th level games *g*) then you could have a big part of the plot be the Unseelie and Imp trying to track down a Unicorn to corrupt it too. Especially if that Unicorn was all buddy buddy with the PCs first :) Maybe you could even watch Legend before the game you introduce the "corrupted" Unicorn :) |
| BrennonGoldeye04-03-07, 03:43 PM | -If you say so. You'd never steer me wrong...Would you? I'm being both sincere and benign. A relative rarity these days.:D I've seen more that one ":cheer:Bubbles:cheer: " blossom when given not only permission to be Bad;) but a template that she understands. This plan also works on friendly jocks.:D |
| Midnight_v04-04-07, 08:22 PM | I think mystra's chosen are the problem they're too.... big ... in story. There's no mechanical reason the elminster can't be killed. There's not even an in story "good reason" its just that well... that used to be Ed's Character. So... wel you know... its personal with them. I think about leaving Toril cause of that somtimes. I left Krynn for similar reason. Stories are dominated by a few. Maybe .. maybe its time for Ebberon... hmmm... |
| Old Sage04-04-07, 08:42 PM | Elminster and the other Chosen are NOT Ed's personal characters. He's dismissed this nonsense theory more than enough times now for people to begin realising just how false those initial claims actually are. |
| GothicDan04-04-07, 08:51 PM | Ed's the creator of FR. And he was almost always the Dm, if I recall correctly. Thus, every single NPC in Faerun is his 'character' - villains and all. And his PCs never reached sufficient level such that Ed would even play El as an NPC regularly. I really don't understand where people get these misconceptions. Even before I seriously got into Realmslore, I never thought that Ed or Volo or whatnot were "Ed's characters." |
| Karsus the Mad04-04-07, 08:55 PM | Elminster and the other Chosen are NOT Ed's personal characters. He's dismissed this nonsense theory more than enough times now for people to begin realising just how false those initial claims actually are. Got to it first:cool: |
| Zevox04-05-07, 02:19 AM | I think mystra's chosen are the problem they're too.... big ... in story. There's no mechanical reason the elminster can't be killed. There's not even an in story "good reason" its just that well... that used to be Ed's Character. So... wel you know... its personal with them. I think about leaving Toril cause of that somtimes. I left Krynn for similar reason. Stories are dominated by a few. Maybe .. maybe its time for Ebberon... hmmm... Elminster is no more "Ed's character" than anyone else in the Realms is. Ed created El before D&D even existed as a character in his short stories, and never played him in a game even after D&D came out. He was always been intended as more of a mentor and story-teller style character than anything else - and he would be perceived as such even now, no doubt, if his novels didn't sell so well that WotC kept asking for more to be made. Zevox |
| Stigger04-05-07, 04:45 AM | Maybe we should ask the WizO's to stick a note on the FAQ's to that effect that one can simply link to when it comes up... :D |
| Karsus the Mad04-05-07, 04:56 AM | Maybe we should ask the WizO's to stick a note on the FAQ's to that effect that one can simply link to when it comes up... :D That's actually a good idea:P Tho' it really shouldn't be needed... |
| Stigger04-05-07, 07:20 AM | In that perfect world we all keep waiting for... :P |
| ShadezofDis04-05-07, 09:30 AM | Further, Novels != DM run campaigns. Just because a half dozen (or all) chosen did X, Y and Z in a novel doesn't change the fact that they are bit characters (if that) in your home campaign. If you get a player asking why a chosen just doesn't swoop in and save the day you can easily reply; "You've got no clue, further I'd like you to stop metagaming because your PC has only ever barely heard of these people and has no expectation of them coming in and 'saving the day', so shut up now before I start handing out metagaming penalties." You can also reply; "I've changed that in this version of the Realms since you've read every novel, source book and FR board on the net. Suprize, this isn't the world you know inside and out, but it's close." |
| ShadezofDis04-05-07, 09:30 AM | In that perfect world we all keep waiting for... :P Stop waiting, start creating ;) (note: I do believe you are doing your part my man *g*) |
| Stigger04-05-07, 01:57 PM | Don't be a hater, be a participator... just lemme get the pseudo-pimp gear off and I'm on it. :D |
| Karsus the Mad04-05-07, 05:24 PM | If you get a player asking why a chosen just doesn't swoop in and save the day you can easily reply; I'd be forced to reply with DM: "Because said chosen understands that you simply aren't worth his time. Besides, he's scrying. He's hoping your eminent, grizzly, tortuous death provides at least a morning laugh." PC: "The chosen wouldn't allow that!" DM: "Hmmm? OH! Oh, yeah, you're right. Sorry about that, I was fantasizing about something......." |
| MaskedOne04-05-07, 05:33 PM | I'd be forced to reply with DM: "Because said chosen understands that you simply aren't worth his time. Besides, he's scrying. He's hoping your eminent, grizzly, tortuous death provides at least a morning laugh." PC: "The chosen wouldn't allow that!" DM: "Hmmm? OH! Oh, yeah, you're right. Sorry about that, I was fantasizing about something......." Hmm, I'll stick to DM: That requires them to know you and your current problem exist. They don't, you simply aren't that important. Will Save, please. |
| Stigger04-05-07, 05:50 PM | Heh, nothing worse than hearing those three little words for most non-casters :evillaugh |
| MaskedOne04-05-07, 05:53 PM | Heh, nothing worse than hearing those three little words for most non-casters :evillaugh Sure, there is. Will and Fort saves from everone, please, DC 72. It's just less common to hear that. |
| Stigger04-05-07, 06:12 PM | DC 72? WTF are you doing to your poor players? :P |
| Karsus the Mad04-05-07, 06:25 PM | DC 72? WTF are you doing to your poor players? :P Letting them off easy?:bigeyes: |
| Stigger04-05-07, 06:28 PM | No kidding... my players bonuses are a good 20 higher than that more often than not. Now DC 120 would be the point where most start getting a teeny bit nervous, but not overly so. Just not doing the epic thing properly I guess. Kids these days... :D |
| MaskedOne04-05-07, 06:30 PM | If I'm ****** off enough to say DC 72 on 2 separate saves, then I'm advising everyone to leave me alone while they roll up new characters. Regardless, it fits the qualification of being worse than Will Save, Please |
| Stigger04-05-07, 06:40 PM | Hehe, gotta love grumpy DM's. :D |
| Zevox04-06-07, 12:01 AM | If you get a player asking why a chosen just doesn't swoop in and save the day you can easily reply; "You've got no clue, further I'd like you to stop metagaming because your PC has only ever barely heard of these people and has no expectation of them coming in and 'saving the day', so shut up now before I start handing out metagaming penalties." Or, of course, you could just point out that the Chosen aren't omniscient. Obviously anyone whos asking that question hasn't grasped that concept yet. Zevox |
| BrennonGoldeye04-06-07, 09:51 AM | If I'm ****** off enough to say DC 72 on 2 separate saves, then I'm advising everyone to leave me alone while they roll up new characters. Regardless, it fits the qualification of being worse than Will Save, Please Hmm, if you all promise to leave Masked alone for a bit I'll supply the needed Freedom, Break Enchantment, True Ressurection, et al.. to fix the breakage. :mage: |
| ShadezofDis04-06-07, 11:02 AM | I'd be forced to reply with DM: "Because said chosen understands that you simply aren't worth his time. Besides, he's scrying. He's hoping your eminent, grizzly, tortuous death provides at least a morning laugh." PC: "The chosen wouldn't allow that!" DM: "Hmmm? OH! Oh, yeah, you're right. Sorry about that, I was fantasizing about something......." Heh, though one little critique, you might want to say; "Hmmm? OH! Oh, yeah, you're right. I was thinking of someone else...:schemes:" But I like it, I like it a lot :) |
| MaskedOne04-07-07, 12:53 AM | Hmm, if you all promise to leave Masked alone for a bit I'll supply the needed Freedom, Break Enchantment, True Ressurection, et al.. to fix the breakage. :mage: True Res., I don't deal in soul tricks without profound need so it's doable and well, all bodies are disintegrated, the ash typically scattered. Mind you, such meddling will only go unchallenged once or twice. After that, we move onto other less courteous options. |
| BrennonGoldeye04-07-07, 10:59 PM | True Res., I don't deal in soul tricks without profound need so it's doable and well, all bodies are disintegrated, the ash typically scattered. Mind you, such meddling will only go unchallenged once or twice. After that, we move onto other less courteous options. They are a good bunch of kids Masked, just a little upity. We appologize.:) |
| Stigger04-08-07, 01:47 AM | I don't apologize... in fact I bash Brennon over the head with a overripe tomato instead... :P |
| BrennonGoldeye04-08-07, 04:56 PM | Let me rephrase that, we are a good bunch of kids, except Stigger. He's just rotten. :P . |
| Stigger04-08-07, 06:08 PM | Thanks for that, I don't feel the need to beat you anymore... :P |
| Lord Karsus04-08-07, 06:38 PM | "All I am sayyyinggg....Is give peace a chance...All I am sayyyinggg...Is give peace a chance..." |
| MaskedOne04-08-07, 11:10 PM | LK, when have I * Shar curses as select temples implode. * ever given * Velsharoon screams, select followers of Talos dead by divine power. * you reason, one second SHUT UP VELSHY, to doubt my utter and complete commitment to peace, harmony and good will amongst all peoples?:) |
| Lord Karsus04-08-07, 11:38 PM | LK, when have I * Shar curses as select temples implode. * ever given * Velsharoon screams, select followers of Talos dead by divine power. * you reason, one second SHUT UP VELSHY, to doubt my utter and complete commitment to peace, harmony and good will amongst all peoples?:) -I was referring to Brennon and Stigger actually. When I have ever doubted that you work towards universal peace and harmony? ;) |
| Stigger04-09-07, 04:17 AM | You know, I'm really not all that into peace, love, and harmony... way too hippie for my liking. Not much I hate more than a hippy... :P |
| Soltares04-09-07, 04:55 AM | If you get a player asking why a chosen just doesn't swoop in and save the day you can easily reply; "'Cause I'm using their stats, but all of the Chosen are evil and are behind everything wrong in the world. Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul kacked Mystra during the Time of Troubles and are now granting spells in her name. All of her Chosen went insane and now range from Lawful Evil, Chaotic Evil or Neutral Evil. But if you *really* want Elminster to show up and 'help,' I'll get right on that..." "Oh yeah, that meta-game-y plan you had about going to Shadowdale 'for no reason?' Go to Thay. You'll live longer." |
| BrennonGoldeye04-09-07, 09:23 PM | "'Cause I'm using their stats, but all of the Chosen are evil and are behind everything wrong in the world. Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul kacked Mystra during the Time of Troubles and are now granting spells in her name. All of her Chosen went insane and now range from Lawful Evil, Chaotic Evil or Neutral Evil. But if you *really* want Elminster to show up and 'help,' I'll get right on that..." "Oh yeah, that meta-game-y plan you had about going to Shadowdale 'for no reason?' Go to Thay. You'll live longer." Teehee, I realy like the way you think Soltares. Just let me add the Dr. Who theme at the end. Spooky. |
| GothicDan04-09-07, 09:28 PM | Dr. Whoooo! |
| BrennonGoldeye04-09-07, 09:36 PM | Fantastic.:cool: |
| Old Sage04-09-07, 09:48 PM | Hmmm... The Master as a Chosen of Bane. I like it! :cool: |
| BrennonGoldeye04-09-07, 09:58 PM | Argh!! Flee from the Infernal Modrons!! I can here them coming!! ..Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate! Exterminate!!.. |
| Old Sage04-09-07, 10:08 PM | Oooh! Oooh! Warforged as the new Cybermen... :P |
| GothicDan04-09-07, 10:14 PM | What about the Daleks? |
| ElberethSilverleaf04-09-07, 10:18 PM | daleks could be modrons |
| Lord Karsus04-09-07, 10:22 PM | -What...is going on? |
| ElberethSilverleaf04-09-07, 10:41 PM | Personally I prefer Torchwood to Dr. Who. John Barrowman is a cutie. |
| GothicDan04-09-07, 11:01 PM | Torchwood is kind of a hack in many ways, even if Mr. Barrowman is all kinds of hawt. |
| Old Sage04-09-07, 11:19 PM | What about the Daleks?They're infernal Modrons, as Bren noted earlier. Rogue Modrons are the Renegade Daleks. :D |
| ElberethSilverleaf04-09-07, 11:47 PM | Torchwood is kind of a hack in many ways, even if Mr. Barrowman is all kinds of hawt. Yes he is! Yeah the stories do seem a little weak but it fills my craving for new scifi. Have you seen the first Sarah Jane Adventures special? It was more for a kiddy audience but still fun So modrons = daleks warforged = cybermen anymore?? |
| Lord Karsus04-10-07, 08:50 AM | John Barrowman is a cutie. -Is that the problem with Mystra? ;) |
| Alediran04-10-07, 09:39 AM | -Is that the problem with Mystra? ;) They were like that when I arrived. |
| ElberethSilverleaf04-10-07, 12:54 PM | Whose got the sexiest mask in Faerun? Hmm. :ayyyy!: -Is that the problem with Mystra? ;) No thats something right from Mystra. A timehopping cutie who can't be killed. Maybe he's a chosen? |
| BrennonGoldeye04-10-07, 04:07 PM | Yeah baby! Grrrrrr.. Oh sorry. So did ya'll know that captain Jack is scottish? Full blown kiltwearing Sean Connery sounding scottish. Sorry, but I started the thread, that was just a temporary derailment. Now anyway, we were talking about how Mystra is making all the 1/2elven male warmages wear kilts......;) |
| GothicDan04-10-07, 04:49 PM | I believe he was actually raised in Lousianna, though. His accents flow in and out. :) |
| BrennonGoldeye04-10-07, 04:52 PM | He has a show on BBC about castles. Well, come to think of it, he is a accent-chameleon. Still...Grrrr baby:D |
| GothicDan04-10-07, 06:07 PM | Give him to me! |
| BrennonGoldeye04-10-07, 06:27 PM | ;) Dan, I know this guy who I swear is a 1/2 elf(1/2 Finnish & 1/2 Thai). Cute as a mithral button and gay as the day is long. I just might have to send him fed-ex to ya. He just loves your posts.;) Off for the evening, SWLL all. BGE:cip: |
| BrennonGoldeye04-10-07, 10:08 PM | Now I know the problem with Mystra. She answers all prayers, just sometimes She says no. I prayed and prayed for our waitress to burst into acidic dessicating flame but She said no. Something about a non-interference clause with some guy named Jo. Argh.... Anyway..I guess The problem with Mystra is that She is too powerful for a benign align and has to many folk in the poke? Sorry, nobody said I wanted the bartender to burst into flame, although he could have on his own.;) |
| Lord Karsus04-11-07, 12:04 AM | -Speaking of accents, while I was working last week, these two guys the the FHC (Federal Highway Commission) came in to do some surveying work. One of the two guys had the most bizarre accent. He was born and raised in Maine, but had been working in the deep South for the last fifteen years or so, so he spoke with a Southern Drawl (Ya'll come back now, y'hear), coupled with a New England Accent (Chowdeh, Red Sawks). Very strange... |
| GothicDan04-11-07, 12:15 AM | Dan, I know this guy who I swear is a 1/2 elf(1/2 Finnish & 1/2 Thai). Cute as a mithral button and gay as the day is long. I just might have to send him fed-ex to ya. He just loves your posts. That's a super unique pairing! Give! |
| ShadezofDis04-11-07, 11:08 AM | -Speaking of accents, while I was working last week, these two guys the the FHC (Federal Highway Commission) came in to do some surveying work. One of the two guys had the most bizarre accent. He was born and raised in Maine, but had been working in the deep South for the last fifteen years or so, so he spoke with a Southern Drawl (Ya'll come back now, y'hear), coupled with a New England Accent (Chowdeh, Red Sawks). Very strange... Eastern New England Accent, I know how to speak properly and I've been a New Englander for life ;) But that does sound like the craziest accent on earth :D |
| Lord Karsus04-11-07, 11:28 AM | But that does sound like the craziest accent on earth :D -It sure was. He masterfully mixed his "Ya'lls" in with his his "cahs" ;) |
| The WarOverlord04-13-07, 07:30 AM | OK, I have some good ideas about what miffs folk about Midnight. Now how about Mystra? Ya know, the Being responsible for all of the presently active Chosen. C'mon folk, I know some of you have been drooling to go off about Her. I doubt you have any vengence to worry about unless you deal with vestiges.;) Phrase it calmly and succinctly. Once again, all posts will be respected, if not agreed with. Please signature quote, even you old farts that normally don't. It's not only a sign of respect, but wisdom.;) Forgotten Realms....Nice place to visit, but my 99.99% of my PCs hang there hat elsewhere where what magic can and cannot do isn't controlled by the whims of a wimp. They also aren't beyond bringing a machine gun to a Magic fight on Toril when they lose power from the "magic ban"...lol (Relax, metaphorical joke meaning using any advantage) Think in all my years of playing FR, only 2 PCs where ever Native to Toril and made both Fighters....lol (Rest were "Realm Hoppers" that live where mages aren't required to be wimpy) |
| GothicDan04-13-07, 03:26 PM | The Mages of Toril are probably more powerful than those of any other published campaign setting, with the exception of Planescape. |
| Lord Karsus04-13-07, 06:01 PM | -Yeah, me and the boys have done quite a few crazy things over the years...Good times, good times... |
| BrennonGoldeye04-13-07, 08:20 PM | We still owe that asteroid to the Loxo Confederation by the way....:whatsthis |
| Lord Karsus04-13-07, 08:52 PM | -To the Abyss with those damned Loxo! I've said it once, and I'll say it again- we won that game fair and square, and the 'no givesies-backsies' clause was in effect...:mad: |
| MaskedOne04-14-07, 12:42 AM | The Mages of Toril are probably more powerful than those of any other published campaign setting, with the exception of Planescape. Pretty much what I was thinking but my knowledge of other published settings is too limited for me to be the one making the argument. I just want to introduce Krynn's Conclave to some higher rank wizards of Toril let them call renegade. Maybe starting with Larloch. Right then, moving on before I start plotting something vindictive. |
| GothicDan04-14-07, 06:54 AM | Oddly enough, I love Krynn's magic system. It's very idiosyncratic feeling - it's more empirical than mythological/folk-like, as Faerun's is, where there are dozens (and hundreds) of different ways to do magic. (Not so with science.) |
| Lady_K04-14-07, 07:11 AM | I'll agree with that. In fact, of all the origins about sorcery (and how it relates to the standard concept of arcane magic) that have been published officially in all TSR campaign settings - - I find the origin of sorcery on Krynn to be the most fascinating and "logical." |
| GothicDan04-14-07, 07:14 AM | As opposed to, "Oh, it was always there, you just never knew it?" ;) Also, I'll note that I love Faerun's magic system too... Just a different 'flavor.' And from what I've seen, I wouldn't mind Eberron's. And Athas's was neat, too.... Hm, I like magic! Imagine that. |
| Lady_K04-14-07, 07:30 AM | As opposed to, "Oh, it was always there, you just never knew it?" ;)That can become a rather tiring explanation. Also, I'll note that I love Faerun's magic system too... Just a different 'flavor.' And from what I've seen, I wouldn't mind Eberron's. And Athas's was neat, too.... Hm, I like magic! Imagine that.Mmmm . . . Athas. I always did love those halflings! :cool: |
| GothicDan04-14-07, 07:34 AM | I really liked the Preserver and Defiler way of magic... It influenced the empirical/scientific system of magic I've been developing, dealing with quantum probability and applying proper harmonic resonances using the right movements and words (basically, butterfly effect/chaos theory) to make certain probabilities more.. Probable. One can apply them swiftly, and get direct results more powerfully, but risk doing damage as the weave of probability snarls and lashes back; or one can do things more slowly and carefully, and perform similar magic, but not as instantaneously and spontaneously. Not -quite- Paradox from Mage, but drawing heavily from it, plus a lot of my scientific knowledge, plus some Athasian "Oh my god, you just destroyed a mile of land!" |
| Old Sage04-14-07, 10:26 AM | I'll agree with that. In fact, of all the origins about sorcery (and how it relates to the standard concept of arcane magic) that have been published officially in all TSR campaign settings - - I find the origin of sorcery on Krynn to be the most fascinating and "logical."I sometimes favor the view on sorcerers that Ed outlined in Temptation of Elminster -- establishing a possible link between sorcerers and dragon/draconic bloodlines -- which hints at where the sorcerers get their dragonblood from. In the novel itself, it notes the dragonsblood experiments undertaken by Cordorlar, in the waning days of Netheril. |
| BrennonGoldeye04-14-07, 08:32 PM | "Oh, it was always there, you just never knew it?" Let this one sink in deep. It's a fundamental truth. ;) |
| Stigger04-14-07, 09:00 PM | True Bren, not like the idea of 'it was always there, you just never knew it' should be something hard to grasp for a scientifically minded sort... how much of the Universe is that true of, particularly in terms of physics... ;) |
| BrennonGoldeye04-14-07, 09:15 PM | Ummhmm.:) |
| GothicDan04-14-07, 11:12 PM | True Bren, not like the idea of 'it was always there, you just never knew it' should be something hard to grasp for a scientifically minded sort... how much of the Universe is that true of, particularly in terms of physics... But in physics, we have an IDEA of what we don't know about. We first detected the presence of antimatter by realizing what was NOT there. |
| BrennonGoldeye04-14-07, 11:54 PM | But in physics, we have an IDEA of what we don't know about. We first detected the presence of antimatter by realizing what was NOT there. Dan, you don't want to make this arguement. I promise.:) |
| GothicDan04-15-07, 12:07 AM | You're probably right. Strigger is only bringing up such things to bait me. Sigh. Troll! ;) |
| BrennonGoldeye04-15-07, 09:59 AM | Bad bad Stigger. ;) <hands Stigger 20 platinum> |
| Stigger04-15-07, 04:42 PM | Would I do something like that? :evillaugh |
| Lord Karsus04-15-07, 06:26 PM | -Stigger, would you happen to want a job as one of my enforc-er...agents? It's a very good job. Tell him, Bren, tell him. |
| Karsus the Mad04-15-07, 06:29 PM | -Stigger, would you happen to want a job as one of my enforc-er...agents? It's a very good job. Tell him, Bren, tell him. He is worthy:emp: |
| Lord Karsus04-15-07, 06:32 PM | -Indeed he is. We don't hire idiots...right? |
| Karsus the Mad04-15-07, 06:40 PM | -Indeed he is. We don't hire idiots...right? Most definitely not! The Hands must absolutely be top notch:fett: . |
| Stigger04-16-07, 01:22 AM | I kinda prefer freelance stuff... don't mind helping out now and then though with the odd job here and there. But there are of course... plans... and goals that require a measure of... independence. :evillaugh |
| BrennonGoldeye04-16-07, 09:14 PM | I kinda prefer freelance stuff... don't mind helping out now and then though with the odd job here and there. But there are of course... plans... and goals that require a measure of... independence. Hey, we got that. Karsus always hand free-roaming hands...snicker... |
| Stigger04-17-07, 01:14 AM | Hmmm... dunno. Ask me again in a week when I don't feel like my stomach is being kicked every time I cough. Its a bit distracting at the moment. |
| castlemike04-17-07, 04:10 AM | -These are Mystra's current Chosen. Not that there have been others in the past: Elminster Aumar Storm Silverhand Laeral Silverhand Alustrial Silverhand The Simbul Sylune Silverhand Qilue Veladorn Dove Falconhand Noumea Drathchuld Alvaerele Tasundrym The Srinshee Embrae Aloevan of Ardeep The Blackstaff should also be on that list. |
| Stigger04-17-07, 04:18 AM | I take it you haven't read the novel Blackstaff then castlemike. |
| Zandilar04-17-07, 04:25 AM | Heya, I take it you haven't read the novel Blackstaff then castlemike. And just because this will confuse things... There is still a Blackstaff, but I don't think she's been Chosen by Mystra. :D |
| Stigger04-17-07, 04:40 AM | Heh, true... not yet anyway. Kinda suspecting we'll see her added to the list soon enough though. |
| Old Sage04-17-07, 08:17 AM | Post-Blackstaff -- Tsarra has assumed the guise of the Khelben "Blackstaff" Arunsun. This means that right after the events of the novel, she is a Lord of Waterdeep, head of the Moonstars and mage teacher at Blackstaff Tower. We don't know what happens subsequent to that. What is likely is that she might relinquish one or both of the first two offices. It's a crime to masquerade as a Lord of Waterdeep, so she may reveal herself to Peirgeiron who may decide to keep her on as a Lord. Or not. I doubt she'd get far trying to masquerade as one - although if that suits your Realms and campaign, that's fine as well. She may have a better chance of masquerading as Khelben in terms of his leadership of the Moonstars, but canny members such as Malchor may soon find her out. This one is up in the air at present. She will definitely continue 'being Khelben' in terms of a presence in Waterdeep and a presence in his wizard school in Blackstaff Tower. She is not a Chosen of Mystra. |
| castlemike04-17-07, 10:23 AM | I take it you haven't read the novel Blackstaff then castlemike. You are correct however I have read other gaming source books like the Epic Level Handbook where Khelbhan "Blackstaff" Arunsun is listed as a Chosen of Mystra on page 299 and FRCS page 275. |
| castlemike04-17-07, 10:24 AM | Heya, And just because this will confuse things... There is still a Blackstaff, but I don't think she's been Chosen by Mystra. :D There were two Blackstaffs that I knew of the Elder Chosen and the Younger in Greyhawk. Khelben Arunsun Blackstaff has been a male for centuries in game. I favor the FRCS D20 gaming source books over the novels unless the D20 source books are amended to reflect a significant novel change like a permanent sex change or transformation I just consider it one of the novel plot drivers like Elminster losing his spellcasting. |
| Alediran04-17-07, 10:30 AM | Khelbhan Arunsun Blackstaff is a male. Not anymore. You should read Blackstaff before you get spoiled. |
| castlemike04-17-07, 10:57 AM | Not anymore. You should read Blackstaff before you get spoiled. Thanks for responding. Personally I have found that many of the FRCS novels do not track well in relation to FRCS D20 gaming source books as the novels generally appear to be more plot driven than mechanically driven. The customer service response would probably be interesting regarding their NDA requirements. I won't get spoiled I accept your word that in a written FRCS novel the Blackstaff became a woman just like Elminster temporarily lost all his spellcasting ability in another. Mechanically in game Khelben has been a male Chosen with a lifespan spanning centuries so I will consider a brief sex change one of the temporary novel plot drivers which will be resolved in the future unless Wizard's stats Khelben as a woman mechanically in a new D20 source book like Comyr the Tearing of the Weave or Waterdeep City of Splendors he will remain a male in my campaigns. |
| Alediran04-17-07, 11:05 AM | Not in that way. Khelben dies at the end of Blackstaff, and Tsarra is now masquerading as him because she inherited his memories. |
| ShadezofDis04-17-07, 11:38 AM | I won't get spoiled I accept your word that in a written FRCS novel the Blackstaff became a woman just like Elminster temporarily lost all his spellcasting ability in another. Mechanically in game Khelben has been a male Chosen with a lifespan spanning centuries so I will consider a brief sex change one of the temporary novel plot drivers which will be resolved in the future unless Wizard's stats Khelben as a woman mechanically in a new D20 source book like Comyr the Tearing of the Weave or Waterdeep City of Splendors he will remain a male in my campaigns. It's really a totally different situation than El losing spellcasting (I assume you're talking Shadow of the Avatar series) If you don't intend to read Blackstaff then look at the spoilers to find out what happened, the current Blackstaff* is a different person entirely. *Blackstaff the elder, AFAIK the younger is still about but is not Waterdeep's Blackstaff (hopefully that makes sense *g*) |
| castlemike04-17-07, 01:48 PM | Thanks for the spoiler clarification. I like the ending note of your posts. That is exactly like Elminster temporarily losing his spellcasting or Laeral being possessed by the Crown of Horns because Elminster ended up getting his spellcasting back and Laeral was restored. Plus Mystra/Midnight has resurrected Dead Chosen before. Sounds like he is in a transitionary state right now (Not really Dead and Not really Alive if he doesn't keep the Chosen Template like Sylune does as a Spectral Harper but in game mechanically he hasn't died if he is being Imitated regarding PC knowledge). IMO it is along the lines of Sylune being a Spectral Harper Chosen for a few decades now instead of just dying. I believe it is driving a future story line plot yet to be revealed. |
| Alediran04-17-07, 02:59 PM | I don't think so. Khelben will have a happy afterlife in Arvandor. The most important part of his lifework is done. He left people who can finish the finner points. It would only be possible that Khelben is resurrected if Mystra REALLY needs him or if he somehow discovers that his work is about to become in danger. |
| BrennonGoldeye04-17-07, 03:25 PM | I agree fully Alediran. Though I still doubt he has tweaked his last plot in Faerun.;) |
| Alediran04-17-07, 03:42 PM | Somebody like Khelben can make plots so complex that will continue to exist even if the mastermind isn't alive. |
| Lord Karsus04-17-07, 04:23 PM | -Khelben is not going to be brought back to life, because it simply would lessen the impact of his death. Having Khleben work and toil all of his life, to finally go about performing the task he was destined to complete, only to be brought back to life a little later is, at the very least, anti-climactic. The two authors in charge of the Blackstaff, Ed and Schend, I feel, are above petty, "comic book-like" plot twists like that. |
| Stigger04-17-07, 04:48 PM | Other authors may not be however... but we can only hope. |
| castlemike04-17-07, 05:10 PM | I like some of Schend's Arcane Age gaming work like The Fall of Myth Drannor, Cormanthyr Empire of Elves and Sea of Fallen Stars (Up to 1371 DR references) back in 1998 and 1999. The Blackstaff could really be Dead in a literary sense, he had a long run and now it's end of story according to Schend's 2006 novel and Wizards will begin incorporating that into D20 gaming products or he could just be overcoming another obstacle (like the novel or his novel condition) in a gaming sense. The Blackstaff has been a pretty wily character throughout the centuries so I'll wait for a few years and a few FRCS D20 products doing things like confirming the Blackstaff is dead by stating that and statting the mechanics for the fake female apprentice Blackstaff impersonator. (Things that have been done for Sylune over the years). In novels things like Spellfire work differently than in game mechanics). Here's a few things to consider in game mechanically based on the novel. Suppose your DM gave you a few hints how you were going to die in the future playing the Blackstaff. Could you have avoided the novel death the writer came up with? With a public imitator/impersonator the Blackstaff is free to work behind the scenes. The Blackstaff is a Master Planner with plots within plots and he created the Moonstar Agents of the Teukiir in 1370 an organization that receives the blessings of Mystra, Oghma and Sehanine Moonbow because he had a prohetic vision of a great evil. Mystra a DR18 Greater Power can sense 18 weeks into the future and the past regarding anything affecting her portfolio as per FRCS Faiths and Pantheons and Dieties and Demigods. The D&D example description was a "demigod" of the sea sensing all tidal waves that threaten multiple villages (Demigods are limited to sensing events that involve 1,000 or more people. Greater Deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolio regardless of the number of people involved one week into the past and present per divine rank. Mystra has a lot of power invested in her Chosen like the Blackstaff and is NG so a simple warning should be in order.) Just knowing they would die if they remained standing on the beach because a tidal wave was coming with an hour's notice would allow most commoners to avoid that death by walking inland to safety. Regardless of whether you believe the death of the Blackstaff was accidental and akin to getting struck by lightning or planned as an agent of Mystra/Midnight he should receive a warning as a faithful, loyal and very hard to replace servant. A Wily Archmage Chosen should be able to avoid most deaths. Lots of PCs wizards walk around with Extended Foresights which would be 9 hours for him. Moment of Prescience gives him a 27 hour +25 Insight Bonus on any attack roll, opposed ability or skill check including applying it to your AC for a single attack if flat footed. He could have one of the Epic Spells prepared etc. Since a Chosen actually carries a portion of the divine power of Mystra I would rule that no Power except AO could block her divine sensing of one of her Chosen. I can live with Shar Continually Divine Blocking the Shadow Weave as it is unclear what year it was created (Until I learn differently my suppostion is the Shadow Weave was created by Shar back when Karsus briefly stole Mystryl's Divine Power while the City of Shade was safely tucked away in the plane of shadow and she was able to successfully shield it's existence until the Time of Trouble in 1358). A simple Wish would be Tricky depending on the wording and circumstances but an Intelligent or Aware Arcane Variant of the Psionic Mind Seed Power game mechanic "convinced" it's creator/originator/spellcaster died could easily satisfy most of the novel requirements especially as it sounds like readers were unclear if the apprentice did or did not receive the Chosen template from checking out some of the book reviews. There are plenty of other game mechanic methods and spells that could easily be found in various source books to keep a PC alive and the Blackstaff should have access to most of them considering his age and D20 description. |
| Zevox04-17-07, 05:12 PM | Thanks for responding. Personally I have found that many of the FRCS novels do not track well in relation to FRCS D20 gaming source books as the novels generally appear to be more plot driven than mechanically driven. Obviously, as well they should be. They're novels, not game modules. Zevox |
| Lord Karsus04-17-07, 05:36 PM | Other authors may not be however... but we can only hope. -Well, generally speaking, authors don't use other authors' characters. Troy Denning doesn't use Drizzt. Elaine Cunningham doesn't use Erevis Cale. Ed Greenwood doesn't use Joel the Rebel Bard. Not without permission anyway. And, I am pretty sure that when/if they recieve permission, the original author lets the "borrowing" author in on the direction he/she wanted his/her character to progress in. The Blackstaff could really be Dead in a literary sense, he had a long run and now it's end of story according to Schend's 2006 novel and Wizards will begin incorporating that into D20 gaming products or he could just be overcoming another obstacle (like the novel or his novel condition) in a gaming sense. The Blackstaff has been a pretty wily character throughout the centuries so I'll wait for a few years and a few FRCS D20 products doing things like confirming the Blackstaff is dead by stating that and statting the mechanics for the fake female apprentice Blackstaff impersonator. (Things that have been done for Sylune over the years). In novels things like Spellfire work differently than in game mechanics). -Blackstaff only came out a few months ago. There haven't been any sourcebooks in implant this information into. However, I can say with certainty that the upcomming Grand History of the Realms will make mention of Khelben's death. Until I learn differently my suppostion is the Shadow Weave was created by Sharess back when Karsus briefly stole Mystryl's Divine Power while the City of Shade was safely tucked away in the plane of shadow and she was able to successfully shield it's existence until the Time of Trouble in 1358). -Shar (not Sharess) is the one who brought the Shadow Weave to Realmspace. We don't know exactly if she created it from scratch, "borrowed it" from somewhere else, or if it was always there, and she simply claimed it. We also don't know exactly when she did this, although we do know that the Shadow Weave existed, and was drawn upon during the days of Netheril, hence Lord Shadow being able to conduct tests with his Shadow Weave Magic, and his Shadow Mythallar existing in the first place. |
| castlemike04-17-07, 05:56 PM | -Khelben is not going to be brought back to life, because it simply would lessen the impact of his death. Having Khleben work and toil all of his life, to finally go about performing the task he was destined to complete, only to be brought back to life a little later is, at the very least, anti-climactic. The two authors in charge of the Blackstaff, Ed and Schend, I feel, are above petty, "comic book-like" plot twists like that. I only found one good review for this novel. You could be correct but as a reader you are receiving all your information from the character's perspectives and beliefs as written by the author. What I find interesting is that you have no problem with the Blackstaff working and toiling all his life to finally go about performing the task he was "Destined" to complete but couldn't take a few simple precautions to ensure he Survived to Make Sure he Completed that "Destined Task" as he has throughout the centuries. The game source books portray him as "Happily Consorted to Laerael" not dog tired and exhausted from centuries of pursuing his "Destined Task" unlike . Elminster fading into dotage and continuing to linger on until his Kill Him off Novel. If they really wanted to kill him why not allow him to take "Mystra's Choice" like a Magister as a reward for completing that task and which could allow him occassional brief appearances. Personally I find it a Stretch that he had to Die and Possess his Apprentice as the Only Way to complete his "Destined Task" in the novel. If it was a Fluke like a lightning strike Mystra/Midnight had 18 weeks to warn him. If it was a plot against her well Mystra has an Int of 45 and a Wis of 40. Shar has an Int of 34 and a Wis of 24 according to FRCS Faiths and Pantheons. Living happily ever after instead of dying to fuel a novel plot. Taking Mystra's choice like a Magistrer. He had centuries to develop a variant arcane Mindseed if that was needed to fuel the story. Normally I wouldn't have a problem with a character death but he is a Chosen so it should be plausible reflecting in game mechanics IMO. I figure that is why Sylune is still lingering around she hasn't finished her novel "Destiny" yet the timeline hasn't progressed to that year yet. IMO something as simple as an Arcane Mind Seed variant that really thought it was the Blackstaff would satisfy the novel requirements while leaving the Blackstaff alive in FRCS D20. For all appearances he would be dead like the novel while actually alive working behind the scenes in another story or novel. Bloodwalk, Darkvision, Frostfell and Blackstaff all take place in the same year. |
| castlemike04-17-07, 06:00 PM | -Well, generally speaking, authors don't use other authors' characters. Troy Denning doesn't use Drizzt. Elaine Cunningham doesn't use Erevis Cale. Ed Greenwood doesn't use Joel the Rebel Bard. Not without permission anyway. And, I am pretty sure that when/if they recieve permission, the original author lets the "borrowing" author in on the direction he/she wanted his/her character to progress in. -Blackstaff only came out a few months ago. There haven't been any sourcebooks in implant this information into. However, I can say with certainty that the upcomming Grand History of the Realms will make mention of Khelben's death. -Shar (not Sharess) is the one who brought the Shadow Weave to Realmspace. We don't know exactly if she created it from scratch, "borrowed it" from somewhere else, or if it was always there, and she simply claimed it. We also don't know exactly when she did this, although we do know that the Shadow Weave existed, and was drawn upon during the days of Netheril, hence Lord Shadow being able to conduct tests with his Shadow Weave Magic, and his Shadow Mythallar existing in the first place. The Blackstaff was published in July 2006. I appreciate the update as I posted earlier I am curious how the Blackstaff and the apprentice will be statted mechanically for D20 FRCS gaming not novels in future years as the two do not normally transition well. You are correct and I have amended my earlier post regarding typing Sharess instead of Shar. Thanks for catching that. |
| Lord Karsus04-17-07, 06:23 PM | The Blackstaff was published in July 2006. I appreciate the update as I posted earlier I am curious how the Blackstaff and the apprentice will be statted mechanically for D20 FRCS gaming not novels in future years as the two do not normally transition well. -Well, Khelben has already been given levels. As for Tsarra (his "sucessor"), she has never been statted, period. Obviously though, as she was an apprentice to the Blackstaff, and her inability to cast High Level spells (7, 8 and 9), she is a midling mage. You could be correct but as a reader you are receiving all your information from the character's perspectives and beliefs. What I find interesting is that you have no problem with the Blackstaff working and toiling all his life to finally go about performing the task he was "Destined" to complete but couldn't take a few simple precautions to survive and live happily ever after instead of dying to fuel a novel plot. He had centuries to develop a variant arcane Mindseed if that was needed to fuel the story. -Khelben's actual name, Akhelben, means in Elven, 'He whom Magic, Duty, and Honor Defines. From even his earliest "adventures", Khelben knew that his destiny was to raise the ancient City of Hope of Miyeritar. Upon doing so, he would finally be accepted as the Elf that he was, his duty would be complete, and his afterlife would be his. In Blackstaff, we learn that nearly every move Khelben made was in preparation of casting the High Magic ritual that would bring back this city. Normally I wouldn't have a problem with a character death but he is a Chosen so it should be plausible reflecting in game mechanics IMO. I figure that is why Sylune is still lingering around she hasn't finished her novel "Destiny" yet the timeline hasn't progressed that far yet. IMO something as simple as an Arcane Mind Seed variant that really thought it was the Blackstaff would satisfy the novel requirements while leaving the Blackstaff alive in FRCS D20. For all appearances he would be dead like the novel while actually alive working behind the scenes in another story or novel. -Again, though, that would make the impact of his death meanlingless, and would diminish the Blackstaff's entire life. Jean Gray / The Phoenix has died and has come back to life so many times that it is a joke now, between comic book readers, comic book writers, and the comic book characters themselves. |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 06:31 PM | I really liked Endsong, though. |
| Lord Karsus04-17-07, 06:35 PM | I really liked Endsong, though. -Yes, yes, we know. That, however, doesn't make Jean's difficulty staying alive any less of a joke, though. Unless, using your physics powers, you can go back in time and...:plotting: |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 06:46 PM | I suppose. The difference with the Phoenix thing, to me, is that the Phoenix was from the beginning an emblem of rebirth; so her resurrections are perfectly in keeping with the theme. Khelben isn't a Phoenix, y'know? |
| Lord Karsus04-17-07, 06:52 PM | I suppose. The difference with the Phoenix thing, to me, is that the Phoenix was from the beginning an emblem of rebirth; so her resurrections are perfectly in keeping with the theme. Khelben isn't a Phoenix, y'know? -That is a good point, about the Phoenix. The problem is, though, is that Jean Gray herself is not the Phoenix. I have no problem with the Phoenix supposedly being destroyed, only to reappear somewhere else, using someone else as it's host, but having Jean Gray "coming and going", especially when the Phoenix left her for a great deal of that time, is a little excessive, and it does become a joke. Khelben, however, is not a joke, nor do we want him to be one. |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 06:54 PM | I guess I just like Jean enough as a character to not mind her coming back. I really like the unique 'relationship' she shares with the Phoenix Force, so that no matter the fact that others can hold the Force for a time, it's 'at home' with her. I really liked how it became more of a separate, alien entity in Endsong with which she contended. |
| Lord Karsus04-17-07, 07:01 PM | -Rachel > Jean :P |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 07:06 PM | Whhhhy? |
| castlemike04-17-07, 07:12 PM | -Well, Khelben has already been given levels. As for Tsarra (his "sucessor"), she has never been statted, period. Obviously though, as she was an apprentice to the Blackstaff, and her inability to cast High Level spells (7, 8 and 9), she is a midling mage. -Khelben's actual name, Akhelben, means in Elven, 'He whom Magic, Duty, and Honor Defines. From even his earliest "adventures", Khelben knew that his destiny was to raise the ancient City of Hope of Miyeritar. Upon doing so, he would finally be accepted as the Elf that he was, his duty would be complete, and his afterlife would be his. In Blackstaff, we learn that nearly every move Khelben made was in preparation of casting the High Magic ritual that would bring back this city. -Again, though, that would make the impact of his death meanlingless, and would diminish the Blackstaff's entire life. Jean Gray / The Phoenix has died and has come back to life so many times that it is a joke now, between comic book readers, comic book writers, and the comic book characters themselves. Thanks I really appreciate the clarifying post and you are probably correct that he is dead even in the D20 FRCS campaign returning an elven mythal city. In the Arcane Age and Cormanthyr Empire of Elves he was not a Half elf he was "Less than Half". In the latest FRCS and the Epic Hand Book he is still listed as a Human Chosen (Not a half elf masquerading as a human). Now in the novel he is a half elf. That is something of a stretch to me as there is no need to reinvent the wheel contrary to lots of earlier published material. A Mind Seed would pretty much cover what Tsarra needed to know and fuel the novel. I'd read somewhere a miscast spell resulted in the possession which is what I found so lame in the write up. Casting an Elven High Magic spell as a Human with Elven Blood would probably kill you as you normally cannot do that according to Races of Faerun and the Elven High Mage PRC requiring you to be Elven (Being a Chosen would probably be enough to allow you to complete the spell before dying). I'll be curious how Wizards releases that Spell. Will it be Epic or Elven High Magic as the D20 rules keep changing with each gaming edition particularly in the FRCS. The Elven High Magic Mythal spells didn't normally kill you while the Epic Arcane versions would like Mythllanter's but the caster became part of the Mythal they did not possess others. Arun's Son, Less than half, the Forgotten Chosen all that material was introduced back in the Arcane Age and Cormanthyr Empire of Elves sourcebooks earlier back in 1998 and 1999 along with his only surviving cousin in the Wyrmskull Throne. |
| Lord Karsus04-17-07, 07:15 PM | -Asides for being the younger, and more attractive of the two, I like Rachel's backstory, and her developing story, what with her Deathmarked by the Shi'ar and being that last member of the Gray line (with the exception of Cable) and all. -Unfortunatley, I think she is going to die, when everything is said and done. |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 07:21 PM | I liked Nate Gray! |
| Lord Karsus04-17-07, 07:44 PM | In the Arcane Age and Cormanthyr Empire of Elves he was not a Half elf he was "Less than Half". In the latest FRCS and the Epic Hand Book he is still listed as a Human Chosen (Not a half elf masquerading as a human). Now in the novel he is a half elf. That is something of a stretch to me as there is no need to reinvent the wheel contrary to lots of earlier published material. Casting an Elven High Magic spell as a Human with Elven Blood would probably kill you as you normally cannot do that according to Races of Faerun and the Elven High Mage PRC requiring you to be Elven (Being a Chosen would probably be enough to allow you to complete the spell before dying). -Khelben is actually a "Half-Half-Elf". He is the son of a Half-Elf and an Elf. Will it be Epic or Elven High Magic as the D20 rules keep changing with each gaming edition particularly in the FRCS. -Elven High Magic is Epic Magic, but just a specialized style of casting it, known only to Elves. I liked Nate Gray! -Me too. A few months ago, I ordered like 40 issues of the X-Man comic series from E-Bay. It's a shame how that all ended, though. A bad ending to a cool character. But, at the time, nearly all of the directions that Marvel was headed in can be considered bad, by me. |
| Old Sage04-17-07, 08:08 PM | I liked Nate Gray!Remember though, Nate Grey wasn't a product of the Scott Summers and Jean Grey we all know so well. Thus, he's really not an official branch on the Summers/Grey family tree. Neither is Rachel for that matter. Nathan Christopher Summers Dayspring, the Askani'Son [Cable], is the only actual child of Scott Summers and Jean's clone, Madelyne Pryor. |
| Lord Karsus04-17-07, 08:11 PM | Remember though, Nate Grey wasn't a product of the Scott Summers and Jean Grey we all know so well. Thus, he's really not an official branch on the Summers/Grey family tree. Neither is Rachel for that matter. Nathan Christopher Summers Dayspring, the Askani'Son [Cable], is the only actual child of Scott Summers and Jean's clone, Madelyne Pryor. -This is all so philosophical! So, a union between Scott and Jean in another universe is not as valid as their union in the 616 universe? :) -And, Stryfe should also be included in there, since he is the clone of Cable. |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 08:16 PM | But Nate Gray was cute! And powerful! What more could I want in a man? |
| Old Sage04-17-07, 08:20 PM | -This is all so philosophical! So, a union between Scott and Jean in another universe is not as valid as their union in the 616 universe? :)At least according to Marvel. Technically, Nate Grey is not a child of Scott and Jean in the Earth-616. Nate is from Earth-295. -And, Stryfe should also be included in there, since he is the clone of Cable.So long as we're extending the Summer/Grey family tree, we may as well throw Tyler, Nathan's son, into the mix! :P |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 08:29 PM | I agree! Tyler was also kind of cute. And I still think Nate should be classed as an Omega level. |
| BrennonGoldeye04-17-07, 09:00 PM | Somebody like Khelben can make plots so complex that will continue to exist even if the mastermind isn't alive. Very true statement, plots lasted 1000 years, will last for 1000's more. Come to think of it, since when is being alive a prerequisite? -Khelben is not going to be brought back to life, because it simply would lessen the impact of his death. Having Khleben work and toil all of his life, to finally go about performing the task he was destined to complete, only to be brought back to life a little later is, at the very least, anti-climactic. The two authors in charge of the Blackstaff, Ed and Schend, I feel, are above petty, "comic book-like" plot twists like that. :P The city itself is an evoloving action. And see last phrase of above response. :P Other authors may not be however... but we can only hope. -Rachel > Jean :P Darn straight! ..shiver.. Whhhhy? The hair. ;) |
| Old Sage04-17-07, 09:29 PM | For me, I find the appeal with Rachel is her facial tattoos... as the Mother Askani. ;) |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 09:42 PM | ... I like Cyclops, too! And Havok. I swear, there were totally closet gays working in the comic industry for years. Those superheroes were always way, way too pretty. |
| Stigger04-17-07, 09:45 PM | Or it could just be a self-image problem being exorcised via artwork... the "man, I wish I didn't look like a troll doll, but my hero doesn't have to" sort of line of thinking... |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 09:48 PM | Perhaps, but do most straight guys actually want to look like that? From my experience, in general, straight males are never terribly comfortable admitting such things. I mean, DO straight guys want to be 'pretty boys' like Cyclpos, Havok, Iceman, the Human Torch, etc.? I could understand if it was sort of 'in an ideal world, everyone is beautiful,' but the very fact that straight male comic artists would be comfortable admitting what IS beautiful in other males is something shocking. It just doesn't happen often in America, as can be evidenced in the fantasy business itself, in a lot of cases. Sure, you want to be a big, muscular, brutish barbarian warrior (Conan), or a sly rogue, or the like, but appearance really isn't focused on in males of fantasy as much as it is in comics, other than a few passing references like 'handsome,' if that. |
| Stigger04-17-07, 09:56 PM | Just because they're not comfortable admitting it doesn't mean they don't want to look that way. Anything that contributes to successful breeding is a good thing, even if only on a subconscious level... and there's certainly a lot of stuff going on in comics that isn't explicitly stated per se. But, its food time, so I'll leave off on that thought for now. |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 09:57 PM | I wish such things were more common in society, at least. There'd be a lot more pretty men to look at if they admitted to themselves that they actually COULD recognize what made a male handsome. ;) |
| Lord Karsus04-17-07, 11:49 PM | So long as we're extending the Summer/Grey family tree, we may as well throw Tyler, Nathan's son, into the mix! :P -And then, of course, there are all of Jean's sister's (Sara) kids. I think they all abducted/killed by the Phalanx, though. On Scott's side, there is, of course, Gabriel Summers (Vulcan), and Christoper Summers (Corsair) And I still think Nate should be classed as an Omega level. -If he isn't, that's stupid, as he obviously was. Speaking of X-Man, you know who else was cool? Holocaust/Nemesis was cool. And Exodus. For me, I find the appeal with Rachel is her facial tattoos... as the Mother Askani. ;) -Agreed, though, the Shi'ar Deathmark down her back is pretty appealing as well. Oh, that and her body is well...nice. Saying all of this about a fictional comic book character makes me feel...dirty. |
| GothicDan04-17-07, 11:58 PM | -And then, of course, there are all of Jean's sister's (Sara) kids. I think they all abducted/killed by the Phalanx, though. On Scott's side, there is, of course, Gabriel Summers (Vulcan), and Christoper Summers (Corsair) I want to know more about Vulcan! -If he isn't, that's stupid, as he obviously was. Speaking of X-Man, you know who else was cool? Holocaust/Nemesis was cool. And Exodus. Next time I get some money, I think I'm going to start collecting the X-man comics... -Agreed, though, the Shi'ar Deathmark down her back is pretty appealing as well. Oh, that and her body is well...nice. Saying all of this about a fictional comic book character makes me feel...dirty. GROSS!! |
| Lord Karsus04-18-07, 12:07 AM | I want to know more about Vulcan! -Well, read Uncanny X-Men, then. Here's one random thing, though. He's currently engaged to Deathbird, Lilandra's sister.. Oh, yeah...He also kind of brought Emperor D'Ken out of the coma he's been in all this time, and helped him regain the throne of the Shi'ar. Next time I get some money, I think I'm going to start collecting the X-man comics... -The Mid-to-Late 90s. My favorite comic book era, as I was doing my growing up during this time. GROSS!! -Hey, Dan- Lathander in a thong. |
| Karsus the Mad04-18-07, 12:09 AM | -Agreed, though, the Shi'ar Deathmark down her back is pretty appealing as well. Oh, that and her body is well...nice. Saying all of this about a fictional comic book character makes me feel...dirty. :blush: at least it's better than thinking the same about anime I suppose. As least the comics depict humans in a shape that resembles humanoid. Still shocked at you LK;) |
| Lord Karsus04-18-07, 12:13 AM | :blush: at least it's better than thinking the same about anime I suppose. As least the comics depict humans in a shape that resembles humanoid. Still shocked at you LK;) -I get these bad habits from you! :P |
| Old Sage04-18-07, 12:18 AM | -And then, of course, there are all of Jean's sister's (Sara) kids. I think they all abducted/killed by the Phalanx, though.No, I believe there's still one alive. On Scott's side, there is, of course, Gabriel Summers (Vulcan), and Christoper Summers (Corsair)If we really want to get a warped perception of the Summers family tree, we should also include the now-long dead rumor that Nathaniel Essex [Mr. Sinister] was actually an evolved form of Scott Summers from the far future. :D -If he isn't, that's stupid, as he obviously was. Speaking of X-Man, you know who else was cool? Holocaust/Nemesis was cool. And Exodus.Nemesis killed the Scarlet Witch! That's not cool... ;) |
| Old Sage04-18-07, 12:19 AM | Next time I get some money, I think I'm going to start collecting the X-man comics...You may want to wait a bit. Apparently Marvel will be releasing TPBs of the X-Man series next year. |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 12:20 AM | -Well, read Uncanny X-Men, then. Here's one random thing, though. He's currently engaged to Deathbird, Lilandra's sister.. Oh, yeah...He also kind of brought Emperor D'Ken out of the coma he's been in all this time, and helped him regain the throne of the Shi'ar. He's evil? Hot. -The Mid-to-Late 90s. My favorite comic book era, as I was doing my growing up during this time. Youngin'! -Hey, Dan- Lathander in a thong. Make it neoprene, and I'm good. Surfer-boy Lathander... |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 12:21 AM | You may want to wait a bit. Apparently Marvel will be releasing TPBs of the X-Man series next year. You remind me again why I love me some Old Sage! EDIT: This forum is totally biased against people who type too fast. Waiting 30 seconds is FAR TOO LONG. I could have had half a conversation over AIM by now! Gah! |
| Lord Karsus04-18-07, 12:25 AM | He's evil? Hot. -Quite so, actually. The bastard killed Banshee. Make it neoprene, and I'm good. Surfer-boy Lathander... -Deal. Neoprene it is. |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 12:27 AM | -Quite so, actually. The bastard killed Banshee. He's sexier than Banshee. Evolution says that the most fit are the most likely to mate. Since he's sexier, he's more likely to mate. That means he's superior to Banshee, by Darwin, so he has a right to kill him! Yeah... -Deal. Neoprene it is. FR Calendar: The Faerunian Pantheon at the Beach. |
| BrennonGoldeye04-18-07, 07:53 AM | FR Calendar: The Faerunian Pantheon at the Beach. Hmm, maybe we could get the Marvel artists to do a redux on their Swimsuit issue they did in the 90's, just with FR Divinities this time. Boy did Piotr look good in that speedo.;) |
| Old Sage04-18-07, 08:49 AM | That brings back memories... ... :: Don't think of Psylocke in that fishnet swimsuit :: ... :: Don't think of Psylocke in that fishnet swinsuit :: ... :: Don't think of Psylocke in that fishnet swimsuit :: ... Oh! ... Thanks Bren! :P |
| Alediran04-18-07, 09:48 AM | That brings back memories... ... :: Don't think of Psylocke in that fishnet swimsuit :: ... :: Don't think of Psylocke in that fishnet swinsuit :: ... :: Don't think of Psylocke in that fishnet swimsuit :: ... Oh! ... Thanks Bren! :P What about Rogue? I love my red and white haired strong flying chic. |
| Stigger04-18-07, 09:53 AM | Think I still have those swimsuit issues laying around somewhere come to think of it... |
| BrennonGoldeye04-18-07, 10:16 AM | :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Psylocke does look quite fetching. Rogue ,as always, a pot full of sultry untouchableness. Beast's striped jumper sticks in my mind though. ;) |
| ShadezofDis04-18-07, 10:45 AM | Perhaps, but do most straight guys actually want to look like that? From my experience, in general, straight males are never terribly comfortable admitting such things. I mean, DO straight guys want to be 'pretty boys' like Cyclpos, Havok, Iceman, the Human Torch, etc.? I do :) In fact I spent several years being a pretty boy but then I decided to get a beard and that I didn't really want to spend as much effort "prettying up" so it's fallen a bit off ;) I did do it long enough to land my lady though :D |
| ShadezofDis04-18-07, 10:51 AM | Wow, I was gonna be sorry for threadjacking, then I got to the end of the thread. :nonono: I am psyched that they're doing more TPBs, good stuff. Though Batman>Xmen :) |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 11:41 AM | I do In fact I spent several years being a pretty boy but then I decided to get a beard and that I didn't really want to spend as much effort "prettying up" so it's fallen a bit off I did do it long enough to land my lady though Beard! Ew ew ew! |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 11:42 AM | Hmm, maybe we could get the Marvel artists to do a redux on their Swimsuit issue they did in the 90's, just with FR Divinities this time. Boy did Piotr look good in that speedo. ! Dan likes muscled Russians! I waaaant it! |
| ShadezofDis04-18-07, 11:46 AM | Beard! Ew ew ew! Yeah, that's what I'm talkin about, hard to be pretty with the beard ;D I'm a leo though, gotta have the mane (the goatee reaches the collar bone at this point and the hair is mid back ;)) |
| Karsus the Mad04-18-07, 11:49 AM | Beard! Ew ew ew! Heh. You should see my goatee. I even have a white stripe down the middle:mrt: Now, I just need this (http://www.pendragoncostumes.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=custom&Product_Code=MLAWTC&Category_Code=), paint my staff black, and I think I'd have a basis for changing my name:D I'm a leo though, gotta have the mane (the goatee reaches the collar bone at this point and the hair is mid back ) Ahhh, ye can do better than that! You need a mane down to the tailbone;) |
| ShadezofDis04-18-07, 11:59 AM | Ahhh, ye can do better than that! You need a mane down to the tailbone;) I'm gettin there, I'm gettin there :p (so long as the Male Pattern Baldness curse holds off :hides:) |
| BrennonGoldeye04-18-07, 01:04 PM | Beard! Ew ew ew! The following quote is for GDan only, I apologize to my fellow posters. Hey! Nobody said Bear. They said beard. Think Ryan Reynolds in Blade 3. Yummies.;) |
| Stigger04-18-07, 03:00 PM | That is a nice coat there KtM... hmm.. gives me some ideas as to what to do next time money comes my way. As to being pretty and straight... kinda hard to go out to clubs and the like without being pretty. At least if you want any chance of ever getting anywhere worth going to... Was a way of life back in the days when I was young. Now that I'm old and decrepit... well, I still care about how I look actually... just have different standards as to what that means. :D |
| Lord Karsus04-18-07, 05:20 PM | That brings back memories... ... :: Don't think of Psylocke in that fishnet swimsuit :: ... :: Don't think of Psylocke in that fishnet swinsuit :: ... :: Don't think of Psylocke in that fishnet swimsuit :: ... Oh! ... Thanks Bren! :P -There is a recent issue of UXM where Psyloche is doing her...uh, exercises quite provocativley. I'll recommend it. ;) I am psyched that they're doing more TPBs, good stuff. Though Batman>Xmen :) -No, just no. First of all, Batman is only one person, whereas the X-Men are multiple people. That single fact means that, statistically, the X-Men are better than Batman. |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 06:48 PM | Batman is certainly the best of the DC heroes. And personally, I prefer the preppy/jock/GQ model look. I'm an uber f-a-g. |
| Lord Karsus04-18-07, 08:28 PM | -Yeah, well, being the smartest person in the Special-Ed class isn't that impressive. ;) -Eh, Batman is okay. |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 08:31 PM | I really liked Batman Begins, myself... The movie, of course. Not because Christian Bale woah. |
| Old Sage04-18-07, 08:37 PM | -There is a recent issue of UXM where Psyloche is doing her...uh, exercises quite provocativley. I'll recommend it. ;)Ah, just like the mid-90's -- especially that "coming out of the hot shower and..." :D Hmmm... I wish I was a towel! :P |
| Lord Karsus04-18-07, 08:39 PM | Hmmm... I wish I was a towel! :P -In situations like that, don't we all. And for Dan, I am sure that Piotr takes showers. |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 08:44 PM | And Cyclops? Together? |
| Lord Karsus04-18-07, 08:59 PM | -Not in the 616-Universe, sorry. -If you travel with the Exiles, though, I'm sure you'll find all sorts of things. |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 09:13 PM | The Exiles? |
| BrennonGoldeye04-18-07, 11:00 PM | Gawds in the heavens boys....enough...:P Mystra remember? :rofl: Add to that we have a Dollybird on the hunt and silver hair whipping around all over the place. Dan. Snap out of it. Mystra? ;) |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 11:07 PM | Mystra.... I bet she'd make a hot guy? So would the Simbul, actually. |
| Zandilar04-18-07, 11:18 PM | Heya, Mystra.... I bet she'd make a hot guy? So would the Simbul, actually. The former is really beyond gender. :) The latter has the permanent ability to Shapechange! :cool: Gender bending ftw! :D |
| GothicDan04-18-07, 11:22 PM | Haaawt! I should be laying down by now. |
| Lord Karsus04-19-07, 09:11 AM | The Exiles? -They're a group of rag-tag heroes who travel from universe to universe, fixing whatever needs to be fixed. Their membership is constantly in flux, but their perminent leader is Blink, from the AoA. She disappeared from that timeline because she "fell through the cracks", and thus, became an Exile. Mystra remember? :rofl: -Um, this all has to do with Mystra. Just you wait and see! ;) |
| ShadezofDis04-19-07, 10:19 AM | Much like with the novels, you have to pick and choose your Batman in order to come away with a good opinion ;) But; Dark Knight Returns>comics Year One>Dark Knight Returns (by JUST a hair, barely, because there is NOTHING better in comics than Batman putting the beatdown on Sups ;), but Year One beats DKR overall) And we're not talkin stat's here folks, but if we were I'm sure Batman could devise a "mutant power suppressor" faster than he could synthisize kryptonite :p Last, but not least, you have the whole "spartan" angle for Batman and Robin and history has show that a close team works best ;) |
| Stigger04-19-07, 11:40 AM | How this is all going to come back full circle and somehow relate to Mystra I'm just dying to see... |
| Lord Karsus04-19-07, 06:25 PM | How this is all going to come back full circle and somehow relate to Mystra I'm just dying to see... -I'm working on it...I'm working on it...Can someone hand me a hammer? |
| Stigger04-19-07, 06:45 PM | *Hands LK a hammer* Good luck, think you're gonna need it... |
| Lord Karsus04-19-07, 07:13 PM | ::Takes the hammer:: -You'll all see! |
| MarkusTay6304-20-07, 12:28 AM | Because Mystra also gives power to both Dr.Strange and Dr.Fate. Every reality has to have a sorceror-supreme. In FR they just call it the Magister, but it's the same job. She has someone on every world making sure the 'magic' is okay. She also had sex with Bruce Wayne, since he is the only guy who gets more p___y the Elminster. ;) |
| Dioxin04-20-07, 12:42 AM | Because Mystra also gives power to both Dr.Strange and Dr.Fate. Every reality has to have a sorceror-supreme. In FR they just call it the Magister, but it's the same job. She has someone on every world making sure the 'magic' is okay. She also had sex with Bruce Wayne, since he is the only guy who gets more p___y the Elminster. ;) What's more impressive, that, or the fact she used calculus to derive batman's real identity? What was the topic again? |
| Karsus the Mad04-20-07, 12:51 AM | What was the topic again? Something to do with Mystra and problems...can't remember. It's been so long...I think it was lost in the single digit pages:blink: Oh come on! 587 posts?! I think this is a derailment record:P |
| Lord Karsus04-20-07, 12:59 AM | -I finished my machine! -Basically, every time somone mentions why they don't like Mystra, or Drizzt, this machine spits out a Pseudo-Chosen of Mystra, or another CG Drow Ranger. Since the people who complain about Mystra invariably also complain about her Chosen, this creates yet another Pseudo-Chosen of Mystra, since a complaint about her Chosen is a complain against Mystra herself. I made it out of adamantium, so no one gets any wise ideas and breaks it, and I am able to create these Pseudo-Chosen of Mystra by harnessing the powers of creation provided by the Phoenix Force. -Man, I need...I don't really know what I need at this point, but I know that I could sure use some/it. |
| Old Sage04-20-07, 01:19 AM | And to ensure its further protection... I recently assisted LK in gently placing his machine within the heart of the M'Kraan Crystal. Let every point in the multiverse benefit from this truly wondrous creation! :P |
| Stigger04-20-07, 02:52 AM | Think its called sleep LK... or large amounts of alcohol, one of the two. :tongue: |
| Karsus the Mad04-20-07, 04:42 AM | Think its called sleep LK... or large amounts of alcohol, one of the two. :tongue: Vast amounts of both I would think;) |
| ShadezofDis04-20-07, 08:15 AM | Vast amounts of both I would think;) It IS the only way to be sure! :pint: Well done Markus, it's kind of ironic since Stigger and I have touched lightly upon the nature of multispheric beings. ;) |
| MaskedOne04-20-07, 04:15 PM | And to ensure its further protection... I recently assisted LK in gently placing his machine within the heart of the M'Kraan Crystal. Let every point in the multiverse benefit from this truly wondrous creation! :P Sorry, stole the crystal already. Certain items are just better of away from such a tempting target. Also twisted space-time around it in odd ways. Tampering will be difficult to say the least. |
| MarkusTay6304-20-07, 05:53 PM | It IS the only way to be sure! :pint: Well done Markus, it's kind of ironic since Stigger and I have touched lightly upon the nature of multispheric beings. ;)Thank You. :bow: What's even more impressive is that I just skipped to the last page of this thread, I lost track about 15 pages back. ;) |
| Lord Karsus04-20-07, 09:24 PM | Sorry, stole the crystal already. Certain items are just better of away from such a tempting target. Also twisted space-time around it in odd ways. Tampering will be difficult to say the least. -Aw, you're no fun. What happened to those two guys who were already charged with watching the M'Krann Crystal? They get fired or something? |
| BrennonGoldeye04-20-07, 10:28 PM | Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!Drizzt is stupid!..... there, now for the team leads... Mystra sucks!Mystra sucks!Mystra sucks!Mystra sucks!Mystra sucks!Mystra sucks!Mystra sucks!Mystra sucks!Mystra sucks!.....whew. Hard work. Um LK, that personel shortage seems to be not as bad as I thought. Do you still want those strike teams sent after um....that um...thing?:smirk: Oh yeah, and we can cater that party for Sune as long as KtM has time to make the constructs. Um, and the Loxo sent again. Something about sanctions. |
| Lord Karsus04-20-07, 11:46 PM | Um LK, that personel shortage seems to be not as bad as I thought. Do you still want those strike teams sent after um....that um...thing?:smirk: -Good thinking. Send a couple of teams over to Eberronspace. I already have a governor of the region waiting to enforce my/our will with imputiny. Oh yeah, and we can cater that party for Sune as long as KtM has time to make the constructs. -Since he knows that Sharess and Shar are both also coming, I'm sure he'll make the time. ;) Um, and the Loxo sent again. Something about sanctions. -Damn those Loxo. Alright, distract him again while I go hide that...ahem, "thing". |
| Stigger04-21-07, 01:45 AM | :blink: Just do not want to know... |
| Old Sage04-21-07, 07:43 AM | What's wrong with the Loxo? |
| Zandilar04-21-07, 08:19 AM | Heya, -Since he knows that Sharess and Shar are both also coming, I'm sure he'll make the time. ;) Are you planning to drug both to stop them from killing each other? You might have to find something to stop Sune from trying to kill Shar too. :P (Sharess might a hedonist, but I think you would be hard pressed to convince her to be anywhere Shar is, especially concidering Shar may not have completely let go of her plan to subsume Sharess. :) I should know, after all, I have... ahem... intimate personal knowledge of the Succubus of Sensation. :D) |
| Karsus the Mad04-21-07, 09:28 AM | Heya, Are you planning to drug both to stop them from killing each other? You might have to find something to stop Sune from trying to kill Shar too. :P (Sharess might a hedonist, but I think you would be hard pressed to convince her to be anywhere Shar is, especially concidering Shar may not have completely let go of her plan to subsume Sharess. :) I should know, after all, I have... ahem... intimate personal knowledge of the Succubus of Sensation. :D) Ah, but that's the entire point my dear;) Nothing gets the adrenaline pumping and sets the mood of anticipation as much as the tension between two goddesses:cool: -Since he knows that Sharess and Shar are both also coming, I'm sure he'll make the time. Already working on number 14. I hope mithril is a suitable material? I didn't have enough of anything else in supply. |
| GothicDan04-21-07, 05:56 PM | I think Sharess should have a twin brother. Or maybe she should have kids with Lathander... Oh boy oh boy! |
| Lord Karsus04-21-07, 08:01 PM | Are you planning to drug both to stop them from killing each other? You might have to find something to stop Sune from trying to kill Shar too. :P -They don't know who's on the invite list. While we're at it, Zandilar, would you like to come as well? :D What's wrong with the Loxo? -It's a long story. I don't want to go into too many details, but lets just say that peanuts, a colossal cotton ball, a box of paper clips, and dubious amounts of Heavy Magic spiked with KtM's infamous brew were involved... |
| Stigger04-22-07, 08:07 AM | Probable overshare there... just creating way too many bizarre mental images for my liking... |
| Zandilar04-22-07, 09:35 AM | Heya, -They don't know who's on the invite list. While we're at it, Zandilar, would you like to come as well? :D You already invited me, indirectly. :P (I am, after all, just an aspect of Sharess. :P) @GothicDan - Sharess's into the sex bit, not the having kids bit. ;) But it's all right, Sharess is perfectly capable of manifesting as a male (and if she has more than one avatar active, both male and female at once). :D |
| Karsus the Mad04-22-07, 10:25 AM | -It's a long story. I don't want to go into too many details, but lets just say that peanuts, a colossal cotton ball, a box of paper clips, and dubious amounts of Heavy Magic spiked with KtM's infamous brew were involved... Good stuff that, good stuff:ghosted: I put aside a half dozen kegs of it for the party:pint: |
| Lord Karsus04-22-07, 06:35 PM | I put aside a half dozen kegs of it for the party:pint: -Looks like some good times ahead... |
| Karsus the Mad04-22-07, 07:31 PM | -Looks like some good times ahead... http://fkserv.ugent.be/~filologica/phpBB2/images/smiles/buttrock.gif Can't post images in the FR forums...bummer... |
| BrennonGoldeye04-23-07, 06:28 AM | :rofl: |
| Lord Karsus04-23-07, 09:11 AM | -Nevermind... |
| BrennonGoldeye04-27-07, 10:38 PM | Oh come on guys, I was wanting to hit 700 on this one. Don't make me start a "The problem with Elves...." thread.;) |
| Lord Karsus04-27-07, 10:47 PM | -I don't know...Doesn't look like we'll break 700 here. Why don't you 'port Xun back in here. He'll lively up the party. :D |
| MaskedOne04-27-07, 11:47 PM | Or we could arrange something nice and non-stressful like mediating between Shar and Sharess. I needed to blackmail, extort and otherwise coerce Shar anyway. Might as well get all of my sidework with her done at once. |
| Zandilar04-28-07, 07:37 AM | Heya, Or we could arrange something nice and non-stressful like mediating between Shar and Sharess. I needed to blackmail, extort and otherwise coerce Shar anyway. Might as well get all of my sidework with her done at once. Shar has never struck me as the sort to enjoy a party. I think her sole goal would be to make people regret that she ever got invited in the first place, and mourn the loss of anything valuable in the vicinity... That, or she causes hangovers. Shar was trying to make people think Sharess was an aspect of her, as the harbinger of loss... Party hard, forget yourself, lose friendships because of acts you now regret. ;) |
| Karsus the Mad04-28-07, 08:57 AM | Shar was trying to make people think Sharess was an aspect of her, as the harbinger of loss... Party hard, forget yourself, lose friendships because of acts you now regret. Sounds like the other night actually. At the pub, made lots of friends, lost those friendships when I refused to buy a second round for the place;) There. Figured I should contribute to the derailment:) |
| Alediran04-28-07, 06:10 PM | That was nothing compared to that day I forgot to tie my shoes... |
| Lord Karsus04-28-07, 08:51 PM | That was nothing compared to that day I forgot to tie my shoes... -That was nothing compared to that day I forgot my pants...:P |
| Stigger04-28-07, 10:02 PM | Wonder what forgetting all of your clothes inside a nightclub is worth... |
| BrennonGoldeye04-29-07, 01:53 PM | Wonder what forgetting all of your clothes inside a nightclub is worth... It costs a 135$ fine in my metro area, adjusted for inflation.:rimshot: |
| Stigger04-29-07, 07:20 PM | Good thing I didn't get caught then... :D |
| Lord Karsus04-29-07, 10:59 PM | Wonder what forgetting all of your clothes inside a nightclub is worth... -Not wearing clothing into a nightclub? Priceless...:) |
| Stigger04-30-07, 01:24 AM | Nah, I wore them in, I just didn't have them anymore when I went to leave... :D |
| Lord Karsus04-30-07, 08:33 AM | Nah, I wore them in, I just didn't have them anymore when I went to leave... :D -How much is that worth, eh? Well, how much is a ticket for indecent exposure these days? ;) |
| Stigger04-30-07, 04:17 PM | Pity really that the cops weren't there... would have made a fortune with all the fines that night would have produced. :D |
| Karsus the Mad05-01-07, 12:12 PM | Good thing I didn't get pulled over when I drove home plastered from Pierres in Fort Wayne.....I was nakey from the waste down with a companion to boot;) Illegal engine, public indecencies, speeding, driving without a license, sexual activity in public, driving under the influence....would have been a bankrupting experience. Luckily that wasn't me:shifty: HAPPY VAPPU TO EVERYONE! Drink, party, eat, hang out with friends! Basically, enjoy life! |
| Eatable_Dice05-01-07, 02:42 PM | Good thing I didn't get pulled over when I drove home plastered from Pierres in Fort Wayne.....I was nakey from the waste down with a companion to boot;) Illegal engine, public indecencies, speeding, driving without a license, sexual activity in public, driving under the influence....would have been a bankrupting experience. Luckily that wasn't me:shifty: HAPPY VAPPU TO EVERYONE! Drink, party, eat, hang out with friends! Basically, enjoy life! Like I said before: Pics or it didn“t happen.:cool: |
| Lord Karsus05-01-07, 06:39 PM | Good thing I didn't get pulled over when I drove home plastered from Pierres in Fort Wayne.....I was nakey from the waste down with a companion to boot;) Illegal engine, public indecencies, speeding, driving without a license, sexual activity in public, driving under the influence....would have been a bankrupting experience. Luckily that wasn't me:shifty: -Eh, you'd get ticketed, might have to do some community service and all, but it'd get plea bargained down to maybe a little jail time and/or probation. Like I said before: Pics or it didn“t happen.:cool: -No, that's something you don't want to see pictures of. |
| Stigger05-01-07, 06:52 PM | I wanna see pictures too... not for any self-serving :evillaugh purposes mind you... I'd never do anything like that. :devil: |
| Lord Karsus05-01-07, 06:58 PM | not for any self-serving :evillaugh purposes mind you... -That is really the wrong choice of words...:doh: |
| Stigger05-01-07, 07:42 PM | Well, I do love making everyone's day just a little more wrong... |
| Lord Karsus05-01-07, 07:56 PM | -And we all appreciate you for that. :) |
| BrennonGoldeye05-01-07, 09:42 PM | Well, I do love making everyone's day just a little more wrong... Don't get me started, I have Dan on standby with his Leathers and the new Tori album.......:mrt: |
| Stigger05-01-07, 10:05 PM | Bring it on Bren... I seriously doubt Dan could hold a candle to the San Francisco leather daddies I've dealt with in the past... :tongue: |
| BrennonGoldeye05-01-07, 10:25 PM | Oh well. I warned ya. :gah: |
| Lord Karsus05-01-07, 11:22 PM | -I don't like where this conversation is going... |
| Stigger05-02-07, 01:42 AM | Well, yeah, it is kinda headed towards the bad place, but I say blame Bren, he's the one who wanted to hit 700. :tongue: :D |
| Lord Karsus05-02-07, 09:13 AM | -Well, we're a little bit past 1/3 of the way there... |
| BrennonGoldeye05-02-07, 09:49 AM | It's all good guys. I have a new thread coming and it will be quite a humdinger.;) |
| Stigger05-02-07, 03:11 PM | After all this hard work and going to bad places, he comes along with a post like that... I outta do something :evillaugh to you... |
| Lord Karsus05-03-07, 09:03 AM | -I agree... |
| BrennonGoldeye05-03-07, 09:50 AM | Now your both being naughty.;) |
| Lord Karsus05-03-07, 12:24 PM | -No, it's just that after all of the hard work we've put into this thread... |
| Infinitum05-03-07, 03:35 PM | Kinky. |
| Lord Karsus05-03-07, 05:35 PM | -Who asked you? :P |
| Stigger05-03-07, 06:11 PM | Oi, that's my line... :tongue: |
| Alediran05-03-07, 11:43 PM | Hey, wasn't that a red comet in the sky? |
| Lord Karsus05-04-07, 12:00 AM | -Must...Smash...Puny...Humans... |
| Stigger05-04-07, 01:30 AM | Nope, wasn't a comet, it was Sune heading over to the tower for an impromptu party with her handful of arcane devotee's... nothing to see, move along... :incog: |
| Infinitum05-04-07, 06:27 AM | Ooooo... is there prostitutes? Not those ones off the streets either, classy ones....I like the classy ones.....:) |
| Zandilar05-04-07, 07:17 AM | Heya, Ooooo... is there prostitutes? Not those ones off the streets either, classy ones....I like the classy ones.....:) Only if Sharess bought them. ;) |
| BrennonGoldeye05-04-07, 08:41 AM | Now now guys. We all know the rule. What happens at Stigger's stays at Stiggers. Otherwise we could never get KtM to come.;) |
| Stigger05-04-07, 09:58 AM | Mostly true... and no prostitutes, those are kinda icky. Maybe some hard currency types though, possibly from either the Moonstone Mask or Mother Tathlorn's... |
| BrennonGoldeye05-04-07, 10:09 PM | Besides, Sharess promised to do Her Bast act..... Grrrr...... |
| Alediran05-05-07, 05:10 PM | Miauuuuuuuuuuuu |
| Lord Karsus05-05-07, 06:48 PM | -You see, that's the problem with Mystra... |
| Khaelieth05-05-07, 07:36 PM | She doesn't purr as good as Sharess? Tbh, I've got a weak spot for redheads. Sune all the way! |
| BrennonGoldeye05-05-07, 08:12 PM | The picture of Sune in Faiths and Pantheons....:blink: |
| GothicDan05-05-07, 08:30 PM | Mmmm, Lathander. |
| Stigger05-06-07, 02:13 AM | Yes indeed... that picture in F&P is more than enough to get me to convert. That I like her dogma is just icing on the cake. :D |
| Zandilar05-06-07, 05:00 AM | Heya, You know, I'm really quite drawn to Mystra's picture in F&P, there's something about her... :love: Sune's picture kind of leaves me cold for some reason. :confused: |
| Stigger05-06-07, 01:34 PM | Hated that picture of Mystra in F&P... there was another one Todd Lockwood did that showing her in a white gown thingy that I thought was much better. Never seen a decent one of Lliira or Sharess though... F&As and F&Ps both left me kinda cold. |
| GothicDan05-06-07, 03:39 PM | I don't think there's a single picture I like in F&P of any of the deities... Well, Velsharoon isn't bad, but that's a much older Brom piece. |
| Khaelieth05-06-07, 03:42 PM | The picture of Bane in FRCS... Amazing=D Sune in F&P... *Drools* I'm so lucky my GF's a redhead ^^ |
| Karsus the Mad05-06-07, 08:41 PM | The picture of Bane in FRCS... Amazing=D Sune in F&P... *Drools* I'm so lucky my GF's a redhead ^^ Uhhhh...don't mean to ruin your fantasy, but Sune in FnP looks *exactly* like me face wise and the curves (without breasts of course) are pure copies of me (tho' my left hand is a bit more tangled...). I must be a sexy male;) I don't think there's a single picture I like in F&P of any of the deities... Well, Velsharoon isn't bad, but that's a much older Brom piece. Is that an analysis or merely your typical dislike of anything 3e regardless of quality, despite seeing it or not? The actual quality of artwork is far, far, beyond far, superior to anything prior. Tho' mystra still looks like a dragqueen;) |
| Lord Karsus05-06-07, 08:46 PM | Uhhhh...don't mean to ruin your fantasy, but Sune in FnP looks *exactly* like me face wise and the curves (without breasts of course) are pure copies of me (tho' my left hand is a bit more tangled...). I must be a sexy male;) -Your aspect got all of the femininity... Tho' mystra still looks like a dragqueen;) -Is there any canon material that states that Midnight/Ariel was not a Drag Queen? Nope...:D |
| Karsus the Mad05-06-07, 08:51 PM | -Your aspect got all of the femininity... Can't help it. My curves get even straight men to go wild;) Until I turn around of course!:D -Is there any canon material that states that Midnight/Ariel was not a Drag Queen? Nope...:D Dunno. All artwork I've ever seen depicts her as pretty much a transvestite or a dragqueen:embarrass |
| Zandilar05-06-07, 09:00 PM | Heya, -Is there any canon material that states that Midnight/Ariel was not a Drag Queen? Nope...:D *sigh* Now that, and the post you're replying to is a touch out of line, don't you think? For me, in that image, it's not her looks, it's her... well... look. She seems tough and no nonsense, and that attitude on a woman is very sexy to me. Sune, on the other hand, looks... well... I don't know how to put it... her sexuality seems forced? Like she's trying too hard? I dunno. |
| Lord Karsus05-06-07, 09:01 PM | Can't help it. My curves get even straight men to go wild;) Until I turn around of course!:D -Heh, I remember once at work, some dummy football coach was calling me "Ms". He was angry when I ignored him (I didn't realize he was calling me), and when he came over to me, he felt quite stupid. Dunno. All artwork I've ever seen depicts her as pretty much a transvestite or a dragqueen:embarrass -So that's Mystra's problem. She's a Drag Queen... |
| Zandilar05-06-07, 09:04 PM | Heya, -So that's Mystra's problem. She's a Drag Queen... Edit: deleted irrational rant. |
| Karsus the Mad05-06-07, 09:16 PM | Heya, Gods... I'm so mad right now. :ahem: :banghead: :banghead: :hoppingma :headexplo No need to get mad deary:P There's plenty of evidence to suggest Mystra is female. (As far as any deity has a gender, that is... and certianly with regards to Ariel Manx...) Uh, Mystra IS a female. What I'm getting at (in my own fashion) is that the ARTWORK in FnP makes her LOOK like a male dressing up as a female (which is me actually....). The correct term for a woman dressing as a man is drag king... if that's what you're getting at. As I said above luv, the artwork looks like a drag queen (male dressing as female), and I personally know lots about being a drag queen;) *Zandilar cuts herself off before she punches her monintor* :uh-huh: no need for hitting hard surfaces:) |
| GothicDan05-06-07, 09:31 PM | ... And the above reminds me of why I often dislike liberal behavior just as much as conservative. *Blinks, stares.* |
| Zandilar05-06-07, 09:41 PM | Heya, No need to get mad deary:P Sorry, I've been having an unbelievably bad morning (and it's only 11:33am). :raincloud I should have known better than to post what I did. Uh, Mystra IS a female. What I'm getting at (in my own fashion) is that the ARTWORK in FnP makes her LOOK like a male dressing up as a female (which is me actually....). If my eyes don't decieve me, she has breasts... and rather generous ones at that... and is showing a lot of skin on them. Now, I don't know anything about how a drag queen makes herself look like she has real breasts when she doesn't (and I've seen plenty with nice deep cleavages - but really ony shows the tops of the breasts, not the sides - at least nothing like what F&P Mystra is showing), but I know breasts when I see them - trust me. ;) As I said above luv, the artwork looks like a drag queen (male dressing as female), and I personally know lots about being a drag queen;) I don't agree. |
| Karsus the Mad05-06-07, 09:58 PM | Sorry, I've been having an unbelievably bad morning (and it's only 11:33am). I should have known better than to post what I did. It's cool;) Hope it's not too bad?:) If my eyes don't decieve me, she has breasts... and rather generous ones at that... and is showing a lot of skin on them. Now, I don't know anything about how a drag queen makes herself look like she has real breasts when she doesn't (and I've seen plenty with nice deep cleavages - but really ony shows the tops of the breasts, not the sides - at least nothing like what F&P Mystra is showing), but I know breasts when I see them - trust me. I do trust you....just trust me tho' when I say that latex can do wonders...(it pulls some hairs, but otherwise is PRICELESS). The "skin" part is easy. A guy just needs the right shape, which is easy, and (most importantly) be naturally free of most "manly" hair. It's the actual breasts that are difficult. Males have a horrid rib cage for supporting a healthy set of breast. However, the vast majority of clothes that drag queens use cover this. The sides of the breasts in FnP I take for artistic license:D As far as I know, it's not possible for a male to duplicate that. I don't agree. You're perfectly able to:) |
| Zandilar05-06-07, 10:34 PM | Heya, It's cool;) Hope it's not too bad?:) It could be worse, I suppose, but not by much. I do trust you....just trust me tho' when I say that latex can do wonders...(it pulls some hairs, but otherwise is PRICELESS). The "skin" part is easy. A guy just needs the right shape, which is easy, and (most importantly) be naturally free of most "manly" hair. It's the actual breasts that are difficult. Males have a horrid rib cage for supporting a healthy set of breast. However, the vast majority of clothes that drag queens use cover this. Hmm... yes, latex is nifty stuff. ;) It's quite fascinating what can be done, and how our perceptions can be tricked. :) The sides of the breasts in FnP I take for artistic license:D As far as I know, it's not possible for a male to duplicate that. Well magic is pretty nifty that way too. ;) Though to be honest, I just don't see what you're seeing there. Maybe it's because there is a certian masculinity to her face in the picture, but I like it... it gives her far more character, in my opinion, than the empty beauty of Sune's picture. There's probably much to be said here about how society percieves masculinity and femininity, and how it treats those of us who sit outside what is accepted for our genders, but I'm going to leave it at that. :) |
| Karsus the Mad05-06-07, 11:08 PM | Hmm... yes, latex is nifty stuff. It's quite fascinating what can be done, and how our perceptions can be tricked. Oh, the things I've done with latex and makeup...different thread!:D Though to be honest, I just don't see what you're seeing there. Maybe it's because there is a certian masculinity to her face in the picture, but I like it... it gives her far more character, in my opinion, than the empty beauty of Sune's picture. For me personally it's not only the jawline, which is too strong. Tho' that's not exclusive to males. Female models these days typically have a strong jawline. It's a sign of gauntness I think (my own opinion of course), which is unnatural, biologically, for females (and males really...nature doesn't appreciate non-fatty parts, so to speak) which is more of modern taste than anything else. It's also the way her right hand is placed. It's not on her hip. It's on the (according to a male body) chunky bit that typically covers a beer gut...basically, she's placing her hand on her hip like a guy does...NOT on the side (top of hip bone), but slightly in front, snugging the chunky part. And unlike a female, her hip isn't pushed forward when putting weight on a single leg, which a female skeletal structure dictates unless effort is put into keeping it straight. I think anyway:P Not that I've put much thought into how women stand:shifty: Of course, it's just artistic license.... |
| GothicDan05-06-07, 11:10 PM | I'm proud to enjoy classical depictions of fair Adonis-like male beauty! *Stands tall and proud, damn it.* |
| Karsus the Mad05-06-07, 11:23 PM | I'm proud to enjoy classical depictions of fair Adonis-like male beauty! *Stands tall and proud, damn it.* For the uninformed, Adonis was worshipped by women of a cult on the isle of Lesbo:teach: Just noticed...Sune has a strong adam's apple.... |
| GothicDan05-06-07, 11:35 PM | A lot more than that, too, about Adonis, I mean. Possibly linked to Adonai and all... |
| MarkusTay6305-07-07, 12:11 AM | Is it just me, or is every thread getting a wee bit 'slimey' lately. :blink: The artwork of goddess's (and gods) was terrible in 2e, and I suspect it's just more of the same in 3e (I'll check the artwork section in a moment). If you want to see GREAT looking gods and goddess's, nothing beats 1e Deities and Demigods. Although godesses like Aphrodite, Ishtar, and Mielikki were hot, and Isis, Bast, and Loviatar bared their breasts, and Tlazolteotl (Aztec Goddes of Vice) had a full-body nude shot, I had an actual crush on Xiombarg for nearly two years! Now that was ART, baby. ;) And considering just how crummy most of 1e art was, thats a pretty sad statement about 2e/3e divine artwork. :( Oh... and there were some buff gods in there too, I believe... Thats why Loviatar is my favorite FR goddess, her 1e picture rocked! That, plus I like to have my hiney whipped on occassion... :rolleyes: |
| Zandilar05-07-07, 12:21 AM | Heya, Oh, the things I've done with latex and makeup...different thread!:D Heh. :) For me personally it's not only the jawline, which is too strong. Tho' that's not exclusive to males. Female models these days typically have a strong jawline. It's a sign of gauntness I think (my own opinion of course), which is unnatural, biologically, for females (and males really...nature doesn't appreciate non-fatty parts, so to speak) which is more of modern taste than anything else. It's also the way her right hand is placed. It's not on her hip. It's on the (according to a male body) chunky bit that typically covers a beer gut...basically, she's placing her hand on her hip like a guy does...NOT on the side (top of hip bone), but slightly in front, snugging the chunky part. I do that too, and I don't think of myself as particularly masculine. By the same token, I don't think of myself as particularly feminine or androgynous. I'm just me. ;) I agree on the jawline thing, though. :) And unlike a female, her hip isn't pushed forward when putting weight on a single leg, which a female skeletal structure dictates unless effort is put into keeping it straight. I think anyway:P Not that I've put much thought into how women stand:shifty: Of course, it's just artistic license.... Hmmm I think everyone's different, and it all depends on posture. I don't lean like that, as a general rule, but when I do, my hip moves out sideways, over the straight leg, not forward... that would be most uncomfortable and unbalanced, I think. :) But yeah... artistic licence is like magic - it explains everything. ;) |
| MarkusTay6305-07-07, 12:44 AM | Uuugh! Just came from the artwork section, and I must say I am SO glad I didn't buy that book. :yuck: THAT'S Mystra?! :blink: She looks like some 45 year old biker that just found out she still fits in her prom dress. Mielikki looks like she's 14, talona has actually gotten better looking (but still scarey), and Beshaba's looking... I don't know... like I could find her on a street corner... but in a good way. LOL Lolth is hot!!! :D Is ANYONE at WotC old enough to remember what she looked like in 1e? She is supposed to make you c_ap your pants, not 'tent' it! Mystra's lucky Kelemvor and Cyric even wanted to be seen with her back in the day, and Elminster definately needs some glasses. In the real-world, every 15 year old male (perhaps some of the present party excluded) would FLOCK to Lolth's religion! With all the incredible amateur artwork I find over at Deviantart, they couldn't have afforded someone with a little more... talent? Yeeesh.... |
| GothicDan05-07-07, 01:53 AM | Even worse than the 2E art, eh, Markus? I still <3 the picture of Corellon on the cover of Demihuman Deities. |
| Khaelieth05-07-07, 07:01 AM | Tbh, Mystra scares me. If I woke up beside her an early Saturday morning, I'd run screaming out of the room. But Beshaba is a real hottie. |
| Zandilar05-07-07, 08:32 AM | Heya, Tbh, Mystra scares me. If I woke up beside her an early Saturday morning, I'd run screaming out of the room. But Beshaba is a real hottie. This just goes to prove that art really is subjective, and that beauty is in the eye of the :behold:! :D |
| Lord Karsus05-07-07, 09:11 AM | A lot more than that, too, about Adonis, I mean. Possibly linked to Adonai and all... :confused: For the uninformed, Adonis was worshipped by women of a cult on the isle of Lesbo:teach: -Whadda place... |
| Khaelieth05-07-07, 09:12 AM | Hrmmm... But the artwork done for the elves in F&P... was I the only one that didn't like it one second!? |
| Philalexandros05-07-07, 09:38 AM | Much has been said about the quality of the art used to illustrate the elven pantheon in the F&P. I look at it this way: he needed to pay his rent, too... and that's the most positive thing I can come up with for those pictures. |
| GothicDan05-07-07, 11:15 AM | LK: Adonis -> Adonai. The linguistuc link is very apparent, and the worship of Adonis is said to have come to Greece from Asia Minor, which in turn came from the Middle East.... |
| Khaelieth05-07-07, 11:23 AM | I'm for Bacchaenelian orgies, Lesbos go hang. Your place or mine, GD?;) |
| Zevox05-07-07, 12:12 PM | This just goes to prove that art really is subjective, and that beauty is in the eye of the :behold:! :D Indeed. I can't say I fully agree with what anyone's said here either. Lolth's picture in that book is flat-out repulsive to me. Granted I'm not 15 anymore, but I'm pretty sure I'd not have found it attractive then either, so Markus' claim confuses me. Mielikki, I've gotta agree with Markus, looks quite young. Mystra's face is a little too masculine for me, but otherwise shes not bad. Sune is just kinda... I don't know, bland. Doesn't look particularly good or bad to me. Waukeen would be good looking if it weren't for the highly-arrogant pose, but she is the Goddess of Wealth after all, so I guess thats to be expected. Beshaba actually looks rather hot. Except for the gray skin. Lliira looks even younger than Mielikki - like she hasn't even hit teen years yet. The others mostly just scare me. Loviatar, Auril, Umberlee, and Talona are probably supposed to, but even ones like Shar, Selūne, and Chauntea qualify. *shrugs* Like Zandilar said, just goes to show you that physical appearances are subjective. Zevox |
| Stigger05-07-07, 12:32 PM | Heh, I needed the laugh reading all this gave me... :D Though really, beauty is entirely subjective, always has been, always will be. I tend to think of it as an extension of the idea of fetishism. |
| Lord Karsus05-07-07, 02:34 PM | LK: Adonis -> Adonai. The linguistuc link is very apparent, and the worship of Adonis is said to have come to Greece from Asia Minor, which in turn came from the Middle East.... -I noticed the linguistic similarity immediatley, which was what piqued my interest. Other than that, though, I don't see many similarities (the river running red with blood is about all I see). |
| ShadezofDis05-07-07, 04:23 PM | I was sure that this thread would have broke 700 already but nnoooooooooo. Come on guys, what, do you have a life now or something?;) Just. .. Eight. . . More! Viva la Brennon!:cheer: |
| Stigger05-07-07, 08:15 PM | Bren told us to stop... so I'm considering helping it along just to spite him. I'm :evillaugh that way... |
| ShadezofDis05-08-07, 12:23 AM | Bren told us to stop... so I'm considering helping it along just to spite him. I'm :evillaugh that way... Psh, I've seen no "contentious" posts from him. . . .wait. . . I'm supposed to back him I think. . . so. . . I'll just chose to ignore that post ;) |
| ShadezofDis05-08-07, 12:23 AM | BTW, four more to go :D ARG!!! the 30 second rule thwarts me!!!! . . .only a little though |
| Zandilar05-08-07, 03:41 AM | Heya, BTW, four more to go :D ARG!!! the 30 second rule thwarts me!!!! . . .only a little though Heh... No spam posting, please! :p We'll get there, I'm sure. :plotting: :shifty: |
| Stigger05-08-07, 09:16 AM | Ah yes... Zandilar's irrational hatred of meaningless, yabbering spam strikes once more... :tongue: :D |
| ShadezofDis05-08-07, 09:30 AM | Ah yes... Zandilar's irrational hatred of meaningless, yabbering spam strikes once more... :tongue: :D Hey, hey now. I'm not sure it's irrational ;) |
| Lord Karsus05-08-07, 09:32 AM | -I did it! Shall I open the Champagne? |
| Karsus the Mad05-08-07, 10:03 AM | -I did it! Shall I open the Champagne? Beat ya to it. The bottle's empty, but I do have some homebrewed swill for everyone:D |
| Stigger05-08-07, 10:10 AM | Hey, hey now. I'm not sure it's irrational ;) Nope, totally out-to-lunch, seething, frothing-at-the-mouth, beating-head-against-the-wall, blinding, nausea-inducing, irrational hatred... :tongue: Trust me on that one... :D You know I'm just messing with you, right Zandilar? |
| ShadezofDis05-08-07, 10:13 AM | Nope, totally out-to-lunch, seething, frothing-at-the-mouth, beating-head-against-the-wall, blinding, nausea-inducing, irrational hatred... :tongue: Trust me on that one... :D heh, fair enough my man :D You know I'm just messing with you, right Zandilar? I'm sure she does, but just wait till she starts messing with you! |
| ShadezofDis05-08-07, 10:14 AM | Beat ya to it. The bottle's empty, but I do have some homebrewed swill for everyone:D Swill huh? I haven't had me some good swill in DAYS. . . . or maybe last night ;) |
| Lord Karsus05-08-07, 12:22 PM | -Did we figure out what Mystra's problem was yet? |
| ShadezofDis05-08-07, 12:31 PM | -Did we figure out what Mystra's problem was yet? Maybe it's KtM's "homebrew" . . . oh, that's more a cause of problem rather than the problem itself ;) |
| Zandilar05-08-07, 07:01 PM | Heya, Nope, totally out-to-lunch, seething, frothing-at-the-mouth, beating-head-against-the-wall, blinding, nausea-inducing, irrational hatred... :tongue: Trust me on that one... :D You know I'm just messing with you, right Zandilar? :hoppingma :headexplo :hoppingma :dragon: Yes, of course I do. :D |
| Stigger05-09-07, 03:45 AM | Pity... was kinda half hoping for a rant... er... I mean good, glad to know that... :D |
| BrennonGoldeye05-10-07, 10:15 AM | Oh my, the RW goes to pot and ya'll break 700 without me knowing. Most excellent. Now, who wants to help me with my "The problem with Boda" thread?:ayyyy!: |
| MarkusTay6305-10-07, 02:48 PM | "Problem with Boda there is not, much-learned gentleman is he" "Meesa thinksa that meesa is the problemsa, you knowsa?" ;) |
| Lord Karsus05-10-07, 04:45 PM | -Sadly, there are a lot of problems with a lot of posters, lately...:( |
| Stigger05-10-07, 04:55 PM | True... If the rest of the world would just admit they're wrong and that I'm right, it would go a long way to solving lots of problems. :D |
| Lord Karsus05-10-07, 06:20 PM | True... If the rest of the world would just admit they're wrong and that I'm right, it would go a long way to solving lots of problems. :D -If only it were that simple. Since everything is on a huge tangent, I'm going to mention some of the old posters that I miss... Warlockco SlimeLord Cunning Linguist Darkmistress J Grenemyer ZSych |
| ShadezofDis05-10-07, 07:51 PM | True... If the rest of the world would just admit they're wrong and that I'm right, it would go a long way to solving lots of problems. :D Check my sig, you're not the only one who's right. :heehee |
| Stigger05-11-07, 05:05 AM | You were only right because I agreed with you... had I not, you'd have been wrong, completely and utterly... though possibly simply misguided. Its hard being as truly wonderful as myself and staying so very humble. :D |
| ShadezofDis05-11-07, 09:59 AM | You were only right because I agreed with you... had I not, you'd have been wrong, completely and utterly... though possibly simply misguided. Its hard being as truly wonderful as myself and staying so very humble. :D Well, let me just state; You are a shining example to us all. :P hehe |
| Stigger05-11-07, 10:03 AM | I know, the burden is truly awesome, but I manage to bear it gracefully somehow... :D |
| BrennonGoldeye05-11-07, 08:43 PM | Probably those frilly shoulderpads. :eek: |
| Alediran05-11-07, 10:21 PM | *Zombi faced Alediran enters the scene* Reeeeeeeeeeeeesttttttttttttt.......... *Zombi faced Alediran fall asleep* |
| BrennonGoldeye05-11-07, 10:29 PM | *Zombi faced Alediran enters the scene* Reeeeeeeeeeeeesttttttttttttt.......... *Zombi faced Alediran fall asleep* :heehee |
| Stigger05-12-07, 02:00 AM | They aren't shoulder pads, they more properly known as shoulder enhancers. :tongue: |
| MarkusTay6305-12-07, 01:53 PM | -If only it were that simple. Since everything is on a huge tangent, I'm going to mention some of the old posters that I miss... Warlockco SlimeLord Cunning Linguist Darkmistress J Grenemyer ZSychNever saw any of 'em. :( So I guess ALL of the recent regulars aren't worth a damn? :smirk: They aren't shoulder pads, they more properly known as shoulder enhancers. :tongue:I guess you still have your 'Don Johnson' jacket from th 80's. If only poor Don had REAL shoulders none of that would have ever happened. :nonono: |
| Lord Karsus05-12-07, 06:26 PM | Never saw any of 'em. :( -Well, that's why they are all old posters that I miss (Meaning that they haven't posted for a while [at least under those guises, anyway]). So I guess ALL of the recent regulars aren't worth a damn? :smirk: -Well, the fact that the recent regulars still post kind of eliminates them from the "old posters that I miss" category. ;) |
| Zsych05-16-07, 03:03 PM | I Am Reborn!!!!!!!!!! For a couple of hours :) You can always PM me LK :) |
| BrennonGoldeye05-16-07, 03:14 PM | Heya Zsychy, make a point of visiting every once in awhile, the oldsters like familiar folk.;) |
| Lord Karsus05-16-07, 03:29 PM | -Hey, ZSych is alive! Cool. :) |
| ShadezofDis05-16-07, 03:41 PM | ::sigh:: Someday I'll be an oldster too. ;) |
| Zsych05-16-07, 03:55 PM | Nice seeing you again too Brennon. ... Just RL taking up a lot of my time. (Plus, I tend to manifest on other forums too) --- Hmm... my posts are completely off-topic. Must correct... Random comment: Mystra/Midnight is a boring diety. Something shocking needs to be done to her. Her power should backfire on her in some way(for the sake of those of us, who don't like her control over magic on Toril :)) I'd like to see a novel or some such presentation of her, depicting her as an awesomely intelligent archmage, with very complex and actually working plans. |
| GothicDan05-16-07, 03:58 PM | Zsych, can't you cut down the Mystra hate for at least a FEW posts? *Newspaper-hit.* |
| BrennonGoldeye05-16-07, 04:05 PM | Hey, if somebody didn't hate Her we couldn't love Her.:D |
| Zsych05-16-07, 04:08 PM | Oh come on... that was fairly positive, or rather, at least implied a positive future. ... Its actually just unfortunate that we're having our discussion in a Mystra thread :P Now to derail this thread further... seriously 25 pages on a topic is too much. What are you guys doing these days? |
| ShadezofDis05-16-07, 04:19 PM | Well, it's Bren's fault really, he wanted a 700 reply thread. ;) |
| GothicDan05-16-07, 04:20 PM | I don't even love Mystra, or most of the Chosen. I just get tired of people slandering them... Anyway, school's out for me. Now I'm studying for the GREs and being terrified of grades and watching TV... |
| Zsych05-16-07, 04:41 PM | So what (field of non-Mystran magic) are you planning to do your undergrad in? btw, I've noticed that the problem solving involved in business is quite interesting. btw, my reaction to Mystra is: tired, bored. Don't really care. Not hate. Although as you know, I really don't think too highly of her intelligence(or that of any god at all :)) If she was portrayed as awesomely intelligent. That would be different, and I would approve. |
| GothicDan05-16-07, 04:57 PM | Novels would be a lot more boring if the majority of people in them were intelligent. ;) And I'm coming up on my senior year of being a Physics Major and double Math/Latin Classics Minor. Then, off to the west coast for grad school! |
| Zsych05-16-07, 05:15 PM | @GD: Off-topic: You should read the Sword of Truth series(first few books). Not that the main characters have godlike intelligence, but its nice to see intelligent characters. Basically, you just need to think longer when developing plans for Mystra. And then show some twists, where some unexpected things come together to complete Mystra's objectives. ... most people would remain normal, but Mystra's interactions would indeed be those of a chess player moving pieces on a board(with the meaning not as obvious as one might think). Naturally, it'd be boring if the person she played against(lets say Shar), wasn't equally awesome(or for most of the novel... apparently more so). ... I remembered that you were doing Astronomy(science close to magic, as I recall you saying) What do you plan to achieve with this? |
| Lord Karsus05-16-07, 05:32 PM | Then, off to the west coast for grad school! -Eww. West coast... |
| GothicDan05-16-07, 05:34 PM | West coast in general is a little more liberal, while the NW is liberal but level-headed. I'm planning on going to UW. :) *Replies to Zsych in private.* |
| Lord Karsus05-16-07, 05:39 PM | -Doesn't matter. The entire west coast, in general, is crummy. They think they're better than the east coast...Phooey, I say to them! Phooey! |
| GothicDan05-16-07, 05:41 PM | Uh. Well, other than the North East, they ARE better! |
| Lord Karsus05-16-07, 06:02 PM | -Eh, the east coast is still better than the West coast. Didn't the east coast rapper kill the west coast rapper first? |
| GothicDan05-16-07, 06:10 PM | Exsqueeze me? |
| Lord Karsus05-16-07, 06:20 PM | -The rappers...I don't know who they were, but in the early-to-mid 90's, an East Coast versus West Coast "rap war" started when a rapper from one side murdered a rapper from another side. Or something like that. |
| GothicDan05-16-07, 06:28 PM | That's dumb. |
| Karsus the Mad05-16-07, 07:29 PM | Silly Coasters...You're all good for nothing but holding my coffee and beer. That's dumb. Yes it is. It's one of the reasons why I personally laugh at anyone wearing underwear on their head (and point out the skid marks...hehehehehe), make note that their baggy pants aren't hiding anything other than their inability to control their bowels (it looks like they can't wipe themselves....), and that wearing hats diagonally only shows their own inability to comprehend basic geometry. Of course, people placing so much import upon those that degrade society aren't "people", and aren't worth contemplating to begin with. Let them wipe eachother out. It's better for humanity, and the Realms, overall. |
| BrennonGoldeye05-16-07, 10:03 PM | Oh come on... that was fairly positive, or rather, at least implied a positive future. ... Its actually just unfortunate that we're having our discussion in a Mystra thread :P Now to derail this thread further... seriously 25 pages on a topic is too much. What are you guys doing these days? This is My Mystra thread mister Zsychipantaloons, a thread about all the goofy mortal problems with understanding Her. We are having a 25 page thread so that every-once-in-a-while somebody might have something pertinant to say. Don't make me start "The problem with the lack of Zsych...." :D As to the coasts. Please. Get a mountain range between you and the ocean, you might be dangerous. Otherwise......Surfs Up!!:elf: |
| MaskedOne05-17-07, 02:42 AM | I'd like to see a novel or some such presentation of her, depicting her as an awesomely intelligent archmage, with very complex and actually working plans. *Flings random piece of Thay at* Bite your tongue. If the divinities of Toril actually start expecting brilliant schemes out of Mystra then I might have to work for my paycheck instead of just watching leap into pre-arranged roles for me. Good heavens, Mystra has a schedule I'm supposed to keep. I don't need the pantheon growing enough of a brain to consider that I'm joyfully manipulating the lot of them in the Lady's service. Dealing with the resulting shock and paralysis could put me behind schedule by a decade or more. I have other work to do than counteracting the pantheon actually becoming wary of Lady Magic.:) |
| ShadezofDis05-17-07, 09:43 AM | @GD: Off-topic: You should read the Sword of Truth series(first few books). Not that the main characters have godlike intelligence, but its nice to see intelligent characters. I would include Faith of the Fallen as well, just because it's my favorite book in the series ;) Basically, you just need to think longer when developing plans for Mystra. And then show some twists, where some unexpected things come together to complete Mystra's objectives. ... most people would remain normal, but Mystra's interactions would indeed be those of a chess player moving pieces on a board(with the meaning not as obvious as one might think). This is how I run my gods and immortal outsiders (and a few others, like ancient dragons, ancient lichs, long lived mages, etc) And it's their minions who may or may not be stupid, and sometimes the masters of these minions are perfectly aware the minion is stupid and use that to their advantage :) I have, however, come up with various reasons why the gods act like a bunch of stupid children. My reason is because other gods are interfering with their plans and subtley "attacking" them, forcing them to pay attention to other places and "fogging" their mind. It works for me, well, because I don't read too many novels ;) |
| Zsych05-18-07, 06:05 AM | More or less how gods should be depicted seriously. -- Hmm... what other problem do we have with Mystra? Lady Proliferation of Magic is hiding the Nether scrolls. Like in the Nether scrolls book. Stolen and turned into a tree that no mortal can likely be expected to find and benefit from. |
| Zandilar05-18-07, 08:58 AM | Heya, Hmm... what other problem do we have with Mystra? Lady Proliferation of Magic is hiding the Nether scrolls. Like in the Nether scrolls book. Stolen and turned into a tree that no mortal can likely be expected to find and benefit from. If she's hiding them, she has good reason... What that might be, I don't know - I can only speculate... And I have two ideas... ;) One: it's the old sword in the stone thing again. They're waiting for someone worthy to find them and unravel their secrets. Two: The magic contained on the scrolls is so potent that it would threaten the Weave itself, especially if someone irresponsible or incapable of controling their power or beholden to a evil deity/a deity with an agenda (like Shar) got their hands on them. Of course, the other half of this idea is that too many people with their hands on the power could potentially sunder the Weave. Personally, I don't like either idea... but that's all I got. |
| BrennonGoldeye05-18-07, 09:41 AM | Wait a sec. Didn't the elves change the scrolls into a tree? If so, it would be Cory who caused this problem. I have a feeling I'm missing some "novel" knowledge on this one.:) |
| jamesnero05-18-07, 09:57 AM | This seems to be the best place to post my issue as I do indeed have a problem with Mystra. Im currently playing a paladin of mystra in a game and I was flipping through faiths and pantheons and it turns out that she allows her clerics to be LE. Then I was flipping through champions and of valor and it seems that she has special sub levels for her paladins. How does that work exactly??? How can Mystra on one hand up hold the code of the paladin and give them special attention with sub levels and on the other hand endorse evil clerics??? Isn't she a good deity NG how can she have evil clerics??? Nero |
| Lord Karsus05-18-07, 10:08 AM | -Mystra isn't supposed to favor one side (Law vs. Chaos, Good vs. Evil) over another. That about says it all. |
| BrennonGoldeye05-18-07, 10:09 AM | I can only answer to the alignment question. Mystra is, in a way, both LN and NG. She also watches over all those who call upon Her in an effort to expand the knowledge of magic, regardles of align. I'm sure there are others who can expand upon the question. Wow, look guys! A well thought out question that is spot on topic. :clap: :clap: :clap: |
| Zandilar05-18-07, 10:17 PM | Heya, How can Mystra on one hand up hold the code of the paladin and give them special attention with sub levels and on the other hand endorse evil clerics??? Isn't she a good deity NG how can she have evil clerics??? Because she's treated as both LN and NG with regard to the one step rule for divine casters. Both LG and LE are within one step of LN, and LG is one step within NG. This is because Mystra hasn't cut off those who worshipped LN Mystra prior to the Time of Troubles. Her entry in Faiths and Avatars says that those people are either leaving or changing, though... But not all of them... Also, Mystra's clergy aren't just divine casters. Her High Priest in Waterdeep is a Necromancer/Arcane Devotee, who happens to be LE. |
| dsheff05-27-07, 01:29 AM | Beard! Ew ew ew! Hey, and what's wrong with a beard, exactly? |
| GothicDan05-27-07, 01:33 AM | I just personally hate the look of beards, on any guy. On SOME rare guys, I like goatees or scruff. |
| Arbourean05-27-07, 01:49 PM | Her alignment should be gradually shifting to N if she is acting more like the goddess of magic and less like Ariel Manx. My problem with Mystra is the same I have with Oghma, mainly they place restrictions on the proliferation of their respective portfolios. |
| Zandilar05-27-07, 08:16 PM | Heya, My problem with Mystra is the same I have with Oghma, mainly they place restrictions on the proliferation of their respective portfolios. What ever gives you that idea? Mystra has not placed any restrictions on her portfolio (and about higher than 9th level spells? That was the previous, LN Mystra, not this NG one). |
| GothicDan05-27-07, 08:22 PM | And what about Oghma? I assume you mean Gond, regarding technology. |
| Karsus the Mad05-27-07, 08:48 PM | Oghma with knowledge. |
| GothicDan05-27-07, 09:12 PM | I know what his portfolio is, but how's he really restricting it that much? |
| Arbourean05-27-07, 09:23 PM | And what about Oghma? I assume you mean Gond, regarding technology. I meant Oghma, regarding ideas, but Gond can be included as well, though he is subordinate to Oghma. Oghma is extremely conservative and frankly is very hesitant to allow radical new, realms changing ideas flourish. The printing press should not be out of place in the FR setting as a relatively common tool found in a major city. As for Mystra, she is NG, that automatically biases her against those who are evil or don't much care for the Harpers. Sure she didn't excommunicate the former Mystra's evil or neutral worshippers, she just expects them to change, and nothing in F&P (I admit I'll have to recheck) says she is turning more Neutral in alignment. Which as goddess of all magic she should be. edit: Obviously the post was not only directed at GD, but Zandilar as well. Apologies. |
| GothicDan05-27-07, 09:40 PM | I meant Oghma, regarding ideas, but Gond can be included as well, though he is subordinate to Oghma. Oghma is extremely conservative and frankly is very hesitant to allow radical new, realms changing ideas flourish. The printing press should not be out of place in the FR setting as a relatively common tool found in a major city. The printing press would be Gond's purview in production, even if Oghma allowed the idea to be had. Is there some place in canon which states Oghma has not allowed the idea of the printing press? (I'm not being argumentative, I'm genuinely curious.) As for Mystra, she is NG, that automatically biases her against those who are evil or don't much care for the Harpers. What actions does she do that supports this, and how does that actually go against her portfolio? Sure she didn't excommunicate the former Mystra's evil or neutral worshippers, she just expects them to change, and nothing in F&P (I admit I'll have to recheck) says she is turning more Neutral in alignment. That's because in 3E they don't have "tendencies" as they did in previous editions. And she's expecting them to change, but not forcing them to, or threatening them, or anything like that. Which as goddess of all magic she should be. Why? Hecate was largely evil in Greek mythology. Isis, Thoth, and Set are Good, Neutral, and Evil. Loki (the one most commonly associated with magic use among mortals) was CN/CE in alignment. I don't like the current Mystra more than the previous one, but I get confused as to why people are so against her, yet they don't say anything about Corellon (Good god of magic), Thoth/Isis/Set, Shar, Cyric (Illusion, CE), Velsharon (NE), and so on. |
| Zevox05-27-07, 10:13 PM | I meant Oghma, regarding ideas, but Gond can be included as well, though he is subordinate to Oghma. Oghma is extremely conservative and frankly is very hesitant to allow radical new, realms changing ideas flourish. The printing press should not be out of place in the FR setting as a relatively common tool found in a major city. What on earth makes you think hes disallowed that idea from existing? Is there any evidence of such? I mean, we even know that much technology from Earth does not work in the Realms due to physics there being different, so its possible that the printing press simply would not work there (granted it'd be hard to imagine the most simple version of it not doing so, but the possibility is out there). And of course its possible that no one in the Realms has ever had that idea. I mean, it took how many millenniums on earth for it to come about? As for Mystra, she is NG, that automatically biases her against those who are evil or don't much care for the Harpers. How so? She hasn't displayed any such thing since her trial (and she has never displayed any unusual affinity for the Harpers at all). Shes even disallowed the Simbul from trying to destroy Thay so that they can continue to compete with other regions and so be driven to make magical advancements. Her High Priest in Waterdeep is a LE Necromancer. She allows the same access to the Weave for evil characters as for good. Any personal feelings she may have about evil, she sure doesn't let them impact her actions anymore. Zevox |
| ElberethSilverleaf05-27-07, 10:28 PM | I have nothing against Mystra myself but as an elf lover I always choose Corellon, Erevan or Labelas. I do think that if her primary purpose is just the promotion of magic in all its forms then her alignment should shift to Neutral. However if her purpose is the responsible use of magic, then perhaps NG is a better alignment for her personally. |
| MaskedOne05-27-07, 10:42 PM | The printing press would be Gond's purview in production, even if Oghma allowed the idea to be had. Is there some place in canon which states Oghma has not allowed the idea of the printing press? (I'm not being argumentative, I'm genuinely curious.) What actions does she do that supports this, and how does that actually go against her portfolio? That's because in 3E they don't have "tendencies" as they did in previous editions. And she's expecting them to change, but not forcing them to, or threatening them, or anything like that. Why? Hecate was largely evil in Greek mythology. Isis, Thoth, and Set are Good, Neutral, and Evil. Loki (the one most commonly associated with magic use among mortals) was CN/CE in alignment. I don't like the current Mystra more than the previous one, but I get confused as to why people are so against her, yet they don't say anything about Corellon (Good god of magic), Thoth/Isis/Set, Shar, Cyric (Illusion, CE), Velsharon (NE), and so on. Guessing here on why Mystra's alignment garners more attention: 1) She gets more print than the rest by far. 2) In Realmspace, she's practically (not literally) magic given sentience and has the ability to overrule in several important ways the other gods of magic. Not only can she re-write the laws of magic on her own authority but she (Midnight) has demonstrated in Crucible (I hate that book!!!!!!!) and her predessor demonstrated at the Fall of Netheril that the holder of goddess of Magic if overly ****** off has the will to re-write notable parts of reality to suit her goals. It's one thing to say someone is divinity of magic. It's another to say that said person is divinity of magic and has unilaterally imposed fundamental alterations on how magic works in recorded history. |
| The Ubbergeek05-27-07, 10:51 PM | Considering the Netheril disaster, I agree with her there though, mostly. Or at least, i can't hold it agaisnt her. |
| GothicDan05-27-07, 11:55 PM | I'm still really not seeing what the big problem is, though. Magic in Faerun is controlled by Mystra, just like any other element of Faerun is controlled by a deity. And we've seen that the current Mystra has been banned by AO from ever favoring good again. |
| Zandilar05-28-07, 04:44 AM | Heya, I'm still really not seeing what the big problem is, though. Magic in Faerun is controlled by Mystra, just like any other element of Faerun is controlled by a deity. And we've seen that the current Mystra has been banned by AO from ever favoring good again. I think people just like to whine. There's also a certian element of "evil is so cool, and is hard done by" to it too. Not to mention my own theory which I won't repeat here. |
| ShadezofDis05-28-07, 10:02 AM | 2) In Realmspace, she's practically (not literally) magic given sentience and has the ability to overrule in several important ways the other gods of magic. Not only can she re-write the laws of magic on her own authority but she (Midnight) has demonstrated in Crucible (I hate that book!!!!!!!) and her predessor demonstrated at the Fall of Netheril that the holder of goddess of Magic if overly ****** off has the will to re-write notable parts of reality to suit her goals. It's one thing to say someone is divinity of magic. It's another to say that said person is divinity of magic and has unilaterally imposed fundamental alterations on how magic works in recorded history. The BIG problem with Mystra's ability to "take magic away" from someone (ie. deny access to the Weave) is that she wouldn't survive a second round of that. If she tried to do it unilaterally the other Gods would stop her and I don't care how cool Mystra is, if the other Gods wanted to pound her into paste then she'd be paste. :) Unless the rest of the Gods are a one trick pony. In which case I'd find the whole situation stupid. :D |
| MaskedOne05-28-07, 12:51 PM | Shrug, not saying that both are actually valid indictments against her merely that they're the only 2 I'm willing to guess at. I like Mystra, more than the rest of the pantheon actually, so I'm trying to work from perspectives foreign to my own here. Frankly, I trust Mystra to stay out of the Crucible style meddling because she figured out at the end of the book that it was a form of tyrrany more than I'll ever trust the semi-incompetent threat of the pantheon but that's just me. Well, that and I have confirmation of alternate ways beyond Shar to access magic so I don't really care. |
| Karsus the Mad05-28-07, 03:32 PM | What on earth makes you think hes disallowed that idea from existing? Is there any evidence of such? I mean, we even know that much technology from Earth does not work in the Realms due to physics there being different, so its possible that the printing press simply would not work there (granted it'd be hard to imagine the most simple version of it not doing so, but the possibility is out there). And of course its possible that no one in the Realms has ever had that idea. I mean, it took how many millenniums on earth for it to come about? The printing press exists in FR. It's a rare novelty for the most part on mainland Faerun, but Lantan likely sees far more use of the invention, as they lack the general dependence on magic that much of Faerun possesses. |
| Old Sage05-28-07, 08:30 PM | Waterdeep has printing presses. Though, printing technology in the Realms isn't all that great. So they can't have large print runs, which means fewer people will read the books crafted by them... |
| Snarkbone05-29-07, 10:38 PM | I don't understand which angle you guys are arguing. 1) Is it that "in FR" view, for a person leaving in the realms who doesn't really get to chose who he/she is, Mystra seems overpowered? That I might buy. 2) Is it that you think you are stuck with Mystra as gamers. Which I don't buy. Roll Psion just as good as mage and according to Players Guide to Faerun, page 172 neither Mystra nor Shar can deny Psionic creatures access to powers (states it plainly with no ambiguity in almost those exact words). |
| Stigger05-30-07, 03:19 AM | Personally I put it down to people just not liking gods 'dictating' what they can and cannot do, which makes no sense really, since its not really the gods doing that, its the DM... and if they feel that way regardless of what a DM has done, then they just don't have the imagination to ignore the canon and alter it to suit their own playing style. Any way it goes, I think its ridiculous to dislike something that intensely when its easily changed to suit ones needs. |
| Lord Karsus02-03-08, 12:50 PM | If you spell foe backwards (EOF),you got the <insert word in english for things like F.B.I.> for end of file. -FOE backwards makes EoF, Elves of Faerūn. :cool: -Talk about a blast from the past...Wonder what ever happened to Xun... |
| ShadezofDis02-04-08, 10:12 AM | -FOE backwards makes EoF, Elves of Faerūn. :cool: -Talk about a blast from the past...Wonder what ever happened to Xun... Whoa man, you're gettin a little slow in your dotage. ;) |
| Lord Karsus02-04-08, 12:05 PM | Whoa man, you're gettin a little slow in your dotage. ;) -I'm a third short, and a year older. What do you want? :P -I'm just practicing my necromancy. Gotta keep my skills sharp. |