Post/Author/DateTime	Post
xpochian 07-23-07, 07:07 PM	after about a year now, i'm thinking of gradually introducing psionics into my game. we're all very familiar with the magically drenched world of abeir-toril, but none of us really have a serious background with psionics. i'm the DM and was thinking that i could gradually introduce it via the duregar raiding parts of the upperdark or the mountain ranges where the PCs love to camp. i've a good understanding of it, but something that seems like it will be a serious headache is the fact that as written (as i understand it) magic/psionics can either be treated as one and the same, with their transparency rule, or are totally different, and require new skills and powers to be adopted ,such as spells that protect against powers, psicraft, knowledge (psionic), ect. I'd rather not have to have the PCs re-tool their characters in order to still be effective, nor have them be able to roll a knowledge (arcana) and have somehow 'known it all along'. MY IDEA (for those of you who skipped ahead): keep the magic/psionic transparency, including for purposes of checks and knowledge, but if you only have knowledge (arcana) and want to try to see if you know anything about psionics, you get a flat +5 to the DC; this would effect psicraft/spellcraft, knowledge (arcana/psionica), use magic/psionic device, ect. any ideas?
Red_Wizard 07-23-07, 07:16 PM	Well to put it simply, the Magic/Psionic transparency rule only extends into areas concerning countering and combating one another. Things such as Dispel, and Anti-magic have the same effect on Psionics as they do magic, but a wizard can no more identify the ability a Psion is using, by making any form of a Spellcraft check than a fighter lacking either skill entirely. This is where many DM's and Players become confused, and annoyed with the Magic Transparency rule. Simple misunderstanding often has lead to virulent debates even on these boards concerning this. :)
Karsus the Mad 07-23-07, 07:19 PM	The only difference is whether or not dispel magic and anti-magic field works on psionics. In the Realms, psionics ARE magical, so spells and what-not work 100% as normal. There is no difference between spells and manifestations....bleh. Psions are nothing but uber sorcerers......
Alac Luin 07-23-07, 08:58 PM	Psionics are affected by Dispel magic and AMFs. Since psionics are not dependant on the weave, psionics will work in a Dead Magic Zone as described in FRCS and Magic of Faerun. If you have a psionic BBEG set up in a DMZ, it would be easy for someone to assume that the BBEG was useing the shadow weave....
Lord Karsus 07-23-07, 09:29 PM	-Though I've never utilized Psionics in the Realms, I am planning on using them in the campaign I am currently running (or, will be soon). I'm just going to ignore that Transparency Rule. I never liked it. In my opinion, it kind of takes away from the "mysticism" of Psionics. You make Psionics and Magic virtually interchanable, and Psions become just another kind of magician (which, in effect, they are).
Zevox 07-23-07, 09:48 PM	Hate to tell you, but skills are not a part of the magic/psionics transparency rule. The transparency just covers how actual spells and powers interact with each other - Dispel Magic being able to dispel psionic powers or not and things like that. Skills have always been separate - Knowledge (Arcana) is not Knowledge (Psionics), Use Magic Device is not Use Psionic Device, etc, and theres no relation or overlap in what they do whether you're using transparency or not. Thats not to say you can't house rule that differently, but personally it would to me take away a lot of the mystery of psionics in general. Magic is incredibly common in the Realms, but Psionics is quite rare, and they're both quite different disciplines, with magic drawing on the Weave for power and psionics drawing on the individual's mind, so it seems pretty silly to me to let knowledge of one equate to knowledge of the other. Zevox
xpochian 07-24-07, 02:08 AM	hmm, wish i'd realized that ahead of time! i guess i assumed it was more transparent than it really was, and held continutity into skills as well. this seems a lot better than what i was planning on cobbling together. i've played psionics in 2e and without serious house-ruling, found that a 1st level psionicist could seriously maim a 5+ HD creature with little more than an easy to roll number, with no save on the crit's behalf! i'm suspecting that if i don't use the pre-made transparency rules, i'll find things like spell resistance and magical dead zones to be mere annoyances to most of the party, but an enormous benefit to the psychically powered minority. ie: group of three 9th level adventurers squared off against a night hag last session, as she was a BBEG of several sessions prior and it was a deadly close battle, but they went in full power and won. if they'd had a psion in their ranks, i'm guessing a single overpowered energy blast or any other 'heavy hitter' power would've ignored her SR and blown her to dust within one round. I realize a night hag sans SR is still a tough opponent, but that's just asking for the party's arcane/divine (and soon psionic) people to just unload an empowered this or a maximized that to turn the foe into paste!
Red_Wizard 07-24-07, 08:45 AM	Hate to tell you, but skills are not a part of the magic/psionics transparency rule. The transparency just covers how actual spells and powers interact with each other - Dispel Magic being able to dispel psionic powers or not and things like that. Skills have always been separate - Knowledge (Arcana) is not Knowledge (Psionics), Use Magic Device is not Use Psionic Device, etc, and theres no relation or overlap in what they do whether you're using transparency or not. Thats not to say you can't house rule that differently, but personally it would to me take away a lot of the mystery of psionics in general. Magic is incredibly common in the Realms, but Psionics is quite rare, and they're both quite different disciplines, with magic drawing on the Weave for power and psionics drawing on the individual's mind, so it seems pretty silly to me to let knowledge of one equate to knowledge of the other. Zevox I think that's what I said initially, just taken a little more in depth ;). To KtM, Psionics aren't equatable to Magic in the Realms. Psions don't use the weave, any more than Wizards can pluck spells from their arse at a whim. The transparency exists solely for small things concerning their interaction with one another, Via Dispel, and Anti-magic. :P
Zevox 07-24-07, 12:07 PM	hmm, wish i'd realized that ahead of time! i guess i assumed it was more transparent than it really was, and held continutity into skills as well. this seems a lot better than what i was planning on cobbling together. i've played psionics in 2e and without serious house-ruling, found that a 1st level psionicist could seriously maim a 5+ HD creature with little more than an easy to roll number, with no save on the crit's behalf! i'm suspecting that if i don't use the pre-made transparency rules, i'll find things like spell resistance and magical dead zones to be mere annoyances to most of the party, but an enormous benefit to the psychically powered minority. ie: group of three 9th level adventurers squared off against a night hag last session, as she was a BBEG of several sessions prior and it was a deadly close battle, but they went in full power and won. if they'd had a psion in their ranks, i'm guessing a single overpowered energy blast or any other 'heavy hitter' power would've ignored her SR and blown her to dust within one round. I realize a night hag sans SR is still a tough opponent, but that's just asking for the party's arcane/divine (and soon psionic) people to just unload an empowered this or a maximized that to turn the foe into paste! Actually, spell resistance is part of the transparency - spell and power resistance are treated as identical to each other and work against both. I suppose I should have mentioned that. (Plus the XPH recommends that if you play without using transparency, most creatures with SR should also be given PR and vice-versa, if not necessarily of the same strength). There is one fairly powerful (if fully augmented) psionic power that would ignore the Hag's SR, Crystal Shard, but thats it. For example, a Psion using an energy bolt against that foe would be be roughly he same to a Wizard of the same level using a lightning bolt - minor differences to the save or damage depending on what type of energy was used, but nothing big. Zevox
Karsus the Mad 07-24-07, 01:12 PM	I think that's what I said initially, just taken a little more in depth ;). To KtM, Psionics aren't equatable to Magic in the Realms. Psions don't use the weave, any more than Wizards can pluck spells from their arse at a whim. The transparency exists solely for small things concerning their interaction with one another, Via Dispel, and Anti-magic. :P I know. I was speaking only of the interaction of spells and manifestations. Things such as dispel magic dispels psionics, and dispel psionics dispels magic. I was merely backing up what you said in the post right before mine:)
Red_Wizard 07-24-07, 01:39 PM	Ok, I wasn't sure. I figured one of us must have read something wrong somewhere, and pointing it out seemed the best way to resolve it. :)
Faraer 07-24-07, 08:22 PM	The transparency exists solely for small things concerning their interaction with one another, Via Dispel, and Anti-magic. :PIt exists, as I've said before, in the 3.5E inflection of the Realms, solely for 'game balance' reasons. It doesn't exist in the underlying Realms -- it's just a rules artefact. Do as you prefer.
Karsus the Mad 07-24-07, 08:40 PM	-- it's just a rules artefact. Do as you prefer. When discussing rules, rules are all that matter I suppose :)
Red_Wizard 07-25-07, 09:19 AM	It exists, as I've said before, in the 3.5E inflection of the Realms, solely for 'game balance' reasons. It doesn't exist in the underlying Realms -- it's just a rules artefact. Do as you prefer. I would say that it's specific implementation in the 3.5 PgTF made it part of the "underlying Realms". The Realms really only has two parts. The lore and the rules, and this rule has been made the current canon one. The rule is small enough, and specific enough that it doesn't change any of the lore, nor any of the novels, thus implementing it is hassle free, and fairly balancing.
Paix 07-25-07, 09:50 AM	We have had the same problem in our games, especialy when going against races using psionics, such as mindflayers, yuan-ti and the rare duergar. What we did, was maintain the psionics are different option, because otherwise we found that it detracted from the flavour of the game. Certain spells already interact with psionics such as Mind blank. Also, in 2e mages had developed less powerful spells to assist them with psionics, such as Zala's Amberhelm. If you have access to the 2e Spell Compendiums you will find many spells designed to aid a mage against psions. Other than that, careful planning and preparation. The DM should take into account the power of the psion when detailing encounters and realise that most parties will be far more vulnerable against him than a regular magic using opponent. We had a good time trying to devise ways and spells to counteract psions, so first time exposure can lead to adventures on its own.
MarkusTay63 07-25-07, 03:48 PM	Jedi have psionics, wizards have magic. Leave the 'mind powers' in space. :P Every time I even consider using them, I thumb throught the CPH and EPH and say "f__k it"! I just don't have the time or inclination to learn a new system. :(
Alac Luin 07-25-07, 06:07 PM	Really, I thought the Jedi used sorcery. Obi-one was useing somatic gestures when talking to the stormtroopers. And I swear that was Burning Hands with an energy substitution of electricity the emperor used on Darth Vader. :D
Red_Wizard 07-26-07, 08:32 AM	Jedi have psionics, wizards have magic. Leave the 'mind powers' in space. :P Every time I even consider using them, I thumb throught the CPH and EPH and say "f__k it"! I just don't have the time or inclination to learn a new system. :( It's really not that hard Markus. It's basically spells, only then drain a pool of power points rather than taking up spell slots. To be honest, it's really quite easier than a Wizards spell slots for purposes of teaching newbs. This being said, I don't use the variant spell point rule found in Unearthed Arcana, preferring to stick instead with the old tried and true method DnD has always had :)
MarkusTay63 07-26-07, 10:31 AM	If I was new to the game I would probably like them and use them, but I've been playing since the psionics rules were a few pages in an index in the back of the DMG, and their shoddiness has always left a bad taste in my mouth. Maybe if I had played on a world like Athas I would have grown to love them, but I just can't get past the idea that psionics is a 'modern' concept.
Red_Wizard 07-26-07, 10:58 AM	I'm not a terribly big fan of them either-- personally seeing them as one of the broken triad-- but it just helps to know all the aspects of the game to even a small extent just in case ;)
Eli_the_Tanner 07-26-07, 11:22 AM	I've found when introducing psionics to a campaign how does one square the previous magic-resitant creatures with the new system. What about golems, high spell resistance monsters, Rakshasa's? The rule I've used so far is that cratures with spell resistance also have power resistance albeit at 10 points lower (SR -10 easy math for me). When it comes to Golems I've still trouble reconciling existing rules with psionics. The rules state: A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. Therefore I've ruled that golems are similarily immune to psionics. If there is a better way of allowing psionics to work with golems without making them suddenly subject to all kinds of pain I'd appeciate it.
Purple Dragon Knight 07-26-07, 12:54 PM	Whoever started this thread: thank you! I will now use a few psionic adversaries IMC, and take down the party's archmage a few pegs (him and his darn +45 spellcraft/kn.arcana...) Let the fun (read: Psicraft +0!!!! Kn. Psionics +0!!!!) begin! :D :D :D
Red_Wizard 07-26-07, 01:07 PM	I've found when introducing psionics to a campaign how does one square the previous magic-resitant creatures with the new system. What about golems, high spell resistance monsters, Rakshasa's? The rule I've used so far is that cratures with spell resistance also have power resistance albeit at 10 points lower (SR -10 easy math for me). When it comes to Golems I've still trouble reconciling existing rules with psionics. The rules state: A clay golem is immune to any spell or spell-like ability that allows spell resistance. Therefore I've ruled that golems are similarily immune to psionics. If there is a better way of allowing psionics to work with golems without making them suddenly subject to all kinds of pain I'd appeciate it. This is part of the Transparency rule in that they are considered equal for determining what can be resisted. SR = PR is a simple, no math way to figure it out. The same goes for Spells and Psionic abilities that protect their wielder from Spells and Psionic abilities. These work equally well against their opposing counterparts as with the power they are designed to deflect. For those who don't understand how this is possible, I explain it simply as thus. Wizards draw from the Weave and direct with the mind. Psions draw from an inner power, and in turn direct with their mind. Once an ability is manifested in reality it then becomes the very same universal energy, and thus able to be defended against as easily as when only magic was the main "Caster" choice. People might then wish to point out that their have been noted differences in effects over the years or that in RAS's "The Legacy of Drizzt" Series the Psions seem to be able to surprise and bypass foes with abilities that are not magic. How do I explain this you ask? Hot and Cold water. Ever turned on a tap expecting one temperature, and getting the other? Shocking, and unexpected isn't it. Maybe you get hurt, or maybe you just jump. Regardless both are still water at heart, it just happens to be a different way of experiencing it. ;)
Eli_the_Tanner 07-26-07, 11:59 PM	This is part of the Transparency rule in that they are considered equal for determining what can be resisted. SR = PR is a simple, no math way to figure it out. The rule I'm using is from the (expanded?)Psionics handbook called the partial transparency rule. in which both systems react with each other but that neither is used to the other. Just as you said about hot and cold water, the effects may be different but they are fundamentally the same entity. If a balor is resistant to magical effects due to his demonic/planar/magical nature but is used to being affected by the weave then when a psion comes along it will be quite a shock to the system. I liken spell resistance to an immune system, when one builds up an immunity to disease through genetics, enviroment etc. If you are exposed to a new virus you are initially weak against it but not without an immune system. Those who have a magical immune system(spell resistance) are strongest against the type of magic they are exposed to. The debate comes into paly when we debate the degrees of exposure. A drow raised among psions would have an equal amont of PR/SR due in part to his genetics and the other part enviroment. Conversly a society or world that is separated too far from the system may mean they cannot interact at all, e.g. the effect of the common cold on Native Americans or even a complete removal such as disease not transferring between species. I believe in earliar editions the latter was the case where non-psions were unaffected/highly resistant to psionics. However psions were vulnerable to their own powers, taking the concept that once you had opened your mind you were more sensitive to attacks on it.
Red_Wizard 07-27-07, 08:40 AM	The problem with those rules, is it sways favour of power back onto the Psion for no justifiable reason. The majority of the rules are focused on, and built up around magic, thus the use of only SR in their stat blocks makes sense. However when you look at powerful beings such as Balors and Pitfiends, I'm not sure how one could say they have only encountered great sources of magic, and never psionics. In an Abyss that is infinite, it seems highly unlikely ;). Just because the majority of gamers may avoid using the add on to the system, doesn't mean that the class/ rules aren't a frequent occurrence all over the varied settings. Personally it makes more sense to me having one equal the other, but I suppose as a fellow DM I should understand your game, means your rules :);)
Eli_the_Tanner 07-27-07, 11:36 AM	The rules works the other way also, creatures with PR are similarily not as stong against magic. I take your point that certain creatures, such as Balors may have a greater exposure to the nature of its home plane, this is where the debate arises around the degrees of exposure. Argubly the balor is an example of the nature of infinity versus the limitless. An immortal creature(finite), on an infinite plane, For the balor to be subject to the rules of infinity it would have to experience all the layers at once to gain a holistic exposure to it's immune system. This could be argued either way really. For balance keeping them the same makes alot of sense, and I can definatly see why someone would want to do that. Personally it makes more sense to me having one equal the other, but I suppose as a fellow DM I should understand your game, means your rules :);) I appreciate your understanding. I enjoy a good thrashing out of ideas though, its the reason I use the boards really.
Red_Wizard 07-27-07, 03:29 PM	Perhaps a better way to suggest the full transparency would be to call it simply ER (Energy Resistance) or something similar and thus avoid the confusion of blending/ resisting one another. I understand where one is coming from with the whole exposure to one type more than the other theory, but with my water example I think one set "ER" makes the most change sense :)
MarkusTay63 07-27-07, 10:32 PM	That is why I once stated to you RW (or was it DW?) that I would have to go through everything and figure out what effect psionics have in every circumstance and on every creture. I'm thinking that levels might actually work against someone in this instance. For instance, a rural peasant should have the same SR, because he is unfamiliar with both magic and psionics. A city-dweller might only get a -5 SR, but an archmage who has NEVER encountered psionics would take a -10 (which works out numerically to him saving pretty much the same as a peasant against them). For most fiends, they would be equally used to both (there are whole worlds that use psionics over magic), but certain fiends might actually get +5 or even a +10 because they are more adept at psionics. On the other hand, some creatures that depend on psionics, like Illithids and Dromites would take a hit on magic SR instead, by maybe as much as -10, and races that use it but don't depend heavily on it, like Duergar or Thr-kreen, might only take a -5 to their SR. I would really need to sit down and figure out how each creature interacts with psionics, and apply a level-dependent bonus or penalty.
ElberethSilverleaf 07-27-07, 10:47 PM	A game that I think separated the 3 paths to power in a very nice way was Rolemaster by I.C.E. You had Mentalism (psionics), Essense (magic), and Channeling (miracles/divine power). Mentalism was based on the premise that a person perfects his mental abilities to the point that she needs no gods or relience on outside forces to enforce his will on reality. Essense was the ability of a person to harness the life-force in all matter to alter reality. Channeling was receiving power from gods or other planar beings to alter reality. I've simplified it somewhat but that is the general idea.
Eli_the_Tanner 07-27-07, 11:04 PM	I'm thinking that levels might actually work against someone in this instance. For instance, a rural peasant should have the same SR, because he is unfamiliar with both magic and psionics. A city-dweller might only get a -5 SR, but an archmage who has NEVER encountered psionics would take a -10 (which works out numerically to him saving pretty much the same as a peasant against them). For most fiends, they would be equally used to both (there are whole worlds that use psionics over magic), but certain fiends might actually get +5 or even a +10 because they are more adept at psionics. On the other hand, some creatures that depend on psionics, like Illithids and Dromites would take a hit on magic SR instead, by maybe as much as -10, and races that use it but don't depend heavily on it, like Duergar or Thr-kreen, might only take a -5 to their SR. I would really need to sit down and figure out how each creature interacts with psionics, and apply a level-dependent bonus or penalty. :raincloud sounds like a reason to keep it simple, too much caculation eventually makes psionics an even scarier prospect. We should all retire and become farmers just to be safe.
Red_Wizard 07-28-07, 11:08 AM	That is why I once stated to you RW (or was it DW?) that I would have to go through everything and figure out what effect psionics have in every circumstance and on every creture. I'm thinking that levels might actually work against someone in this instance. For instance, a rural peasant should have the same SR, because he is unfamiliar with both magic and psionics. A city-dweller might only get a -5 SR, but an archmage who has NEVER encountered psionics would take a -10 (which works out numerically to him saving pretty much the same as a peasant against them). For most fiends, they would be equally used to both (there are whole worlds that use psionics over magic), but certain fiends might actually get +5 or even a +10 because they are more adept at psionics. On the other hand, some creatures that depend on psionics, like Illithids and Dromites would take a hit on magic SR instead, by maybe as much as -10, and races that use it but don't depend heavily on it, like Duergar or Thr-kreen, might only take a -5 to their SR. I would really need to sit down and figure out how each creature interacts with psionics, and apply a level-dependent bonus or penalty. I remember this discussion, and I think it was you and myself having it over a similar thread concerning Psions. I don't see why though all things would need to be factored in, and individually checked, as personally I see the Transparency as a quite simple and straightforward solution. Dispel, Antimagic, SR/ PR all interchangable. Fireball is obviously not. My biggest qualm with your suggested system, is it implies the outcome, or energy, of Psionics is fundementally different than that of Magic. Why not say one is hot water, one is cold water, but once used both are JUST water? I also think this is were our discussion met a wall before, and the thread ended. ;)