Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Renvale999 05-01-07, 01:31 PM	Hello to all, For about 2 years now I've been debating on how a group would go about turning Lolth back into Araushnee. I'm sorry if this sounds crazy, but it's been debated in other threads and several people on these boards say they have toyed with/ran with the idea. As of right now, my group is currently playing Shattered Gates of Slaughterguarde, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, and City of the Spider Queen in succesion. When we are done with these, we are moving to my final campaign as a DM(I'm retiring and moving to Sci-Fi, so the newbies can get their hands dirty). In this last campaign I want to have a group of adventurers(hopefully elven and good-aligned drow/half-drow, but it doesn't really matter) seek out a way to either bring back Araushnee, or silence Lolth herself forever. I know, PC's shouldn't be able to kill gods and all that, but I plan on having the PC's getting help from "higher sources." I have several plans of attack and I want to know all of your opinions on each method (Please no "You can't kill/mess with/change gods posts, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but that's not what I'm looking for). Method 1: You heal Lolth and turn her back into Araushnee...doing so would require the gathering of several artifacts, all of them sacred to either Lolth, Araushnee or Corellon himself. The PC's would have to perform the ritual and fend off any would be attackers in the process. Method 2: The PC's go back in time(and figure out a way to do so would be the main jist of the campaign) and stop Lolth from turning in the first place, thus re-writing history(I know AO would interfere, but for this campaign he is gonna sit this one out). Method 3: The PC's flat out kill Lolth and resurrect Araushnee somehow..again I know the whole point of view...you can't kill gods all that jive, but again in MY campaign world, you can. This would be the most brutal campaign and the PC's would most likely have to try and destroy several of Lolth's more powerful servants(draw them away from Lolth in order to weaken her before the main assault). Each one has it's own merits and rewards, but I would like to get your opinions on this matter, as well, any alternative methods you can think of would be most welcome. Thank you in advance for your time and effort. Renvale
Braekor Dragonfang 05-01-07, 03:35 PM	I've been toying with a similar idea, only in my campaign, Araushnee never 'turned' it only appeared so because an ancient deity of rot and decay (predating talona and moander) infected her and took her body as a host. The idea was that Lolth was weakened by X event, so now Araushnee is trying to reach out to the pcs (i.e. disembodied voice, cryptic messages, etc.) and the only way to free her is to collect X ancient healing agent to destroy the unnamed infestor
Meldread 05-01-07, 05:08 PM	Well, you vile, vile heretic! May the Spider Queen strike at your heart! :P ...having said that, here is how I would play it. PC's start at around 5th to 10th level. Have some type of minor adventure to build up bonds between characters and whatnot, which ultimately ends with them to being intertwined with a heretical group that worships Lolth - but not as the Spider Queen, but as the Goddess she once was. This group then opens the door to the wider plot, which is to separate Lolth from Araushnee. The group believes that Araushnee still exists inside Lolth and that through the collection of a number of powerful artifacts and a powerful ritual would allow Araushnee to achieve the freedom she so desperately desires. Have the first adventure revolve around fighting followers of Lolth, and the PC's coming into contact with some religious artifact which leads them to the aforementioned heretical cult. The PC's will learn that the other artifacts needed are held by various other groups. One is lost in some abandoned ruins or some such, lots of undead there. The others would be held as sacred religious artifacts by the faiths of various Elven churches... who are not willing to part with them. The Church of Shevarash will be striving to smite the PC's as will servants of the Spider Queen. The Elves would be abhorred by the idea and would likely be fighting the PC's as well. They will be getting it from all sides. In the end, when they've collected all the artifacts they will discover that it was all an elaborate plot by Lolth herself to use the artifacts to destroy her enemies in the Elven Pantheon once and for all. The PC's being unwitting pawns in her schemes. Naturally, the players would find themselves captured and locked away as they prepare the ritual. They will have to find away to get free and prevent said ritual from happening, at which point they will end up battling an avatar of Lolth. In turn they could actually use the artifacts to destroy said avatar, and in doing so - do what they set out to accomplish. Lolth would be torn into two parts - Araushnee and Lolth. Lolth would lose some of her divine essence which would form into Araushnee as she was before her fall. (Think of something along the lines of Tyche splitting and becoming Beshaba and Tymora.) That's a basic idea of how you could play it.
Lord Karsus 05-01-07, 07:36 PM	-The problem is this is that there was never anything that "corrupted" Araushnee. Araushnee is Lolth, and Lolth is Araushnee. It was Araushnee's own personality, her own ambition that created Lolth. Now, on the other hand, you could always try to cure the Queen of Air and Darkness, since an external "source" has corrupted her...
Meldread 05-01-07, 09:23 PM	It depends on how you look at it Lord Karsus. Power of Faerun page 48: Even in a world wrapped in the Weave, religion and the nature of the divine remain enigmas to the mortal world. Faerunian philosophers are uncertain as to why the actions of a small number of mortals assume great significance in the epic conflicts of the gods and the actions of a large number of other mortals do not. Many religious myths seem to reflect the history of the mortal world, yet the cause and effect between the two is often unclear. For example, did the betrayal of Corellon by Araushnee (Lolth) and her subsequent banishment to the Abyss trigger the descent of the drow, or did the internecine battles of the Fair Folk that resulted in the descent trigger a similar transformation among the Seldarine? It is a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario, isn't it? What is known is that victories, large and small, associated with the divine can and do play an important role in the epic conflicts of the gods. Through the actions of spiritual leaders and their flocks, gods wax and wane in power, acquire and lose portfolios, and evolve in philosophical outlook. By playing the religious game, you seek to influence the course of the gods, whether through growth of the faith, defeat of a rival faith, or the introduction of new teachings. This is why above I suggested that the players be introduced to a cult that believes that Lolth and Araushnee are the same being, but that a part of Araushnee still exists. They would want to free that aspect of Araushnee from Lolth, which would in turn free her of the "corruption" that you spoke of - as in Araushnee would be "born again" clean and pure - that which made her evil residing in the shell of Lolth that she leaves behind.
BrennonGoldeye 05-01-07, 09:32 PM	It is a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario, isn't it? Neither had anything to do with it. It was the sperm.
Lord Karsus 05-01-07, 10:45 PM	It depends on how you look at it Lord Karsus. Power of Faerun page 48: It is a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario, isn't it? -Not really, and not to be rude or anything, but I don't see how those two quoted passages apply to the fall of Lolth. As demonstrated by Evermeet: Island of Elves, the facts behind the fall of Lolth are made clearly known (Pg 67). And, the fall of Araushnee took place an untold amount of time before the Dark Elves "rose to prominence" in Faerūn, by way of Ilythiir and Miyeritar. This is why above I suggested that the players be introduced to a cult that believes that Lolth and Araushnee are the same being, but that a part of Araushnee still exists. They would want to free that aspect of Araushnee from Lolth, which would in turn free her of the "corruption" that you spoke of - as in Araushnee would be "born again" clean and pure - that which made her evil residing in the shell of Lolth that she leaves behind. -What I was saying is that there is nothing that "corrupted" Lolth/Araushnee. Her own personality is what did her in. Her own greed, her own ambition, her own pride, her own machinations- in short, Araushnee got Araushnee banished from Arvandor. -I'm not saying that this is a bad campaign idea or anything, but I'm just trying to "delve deeper", you know? Neither had anything to do with it. It was the sperm. -Intelligent Design! :)
The_Shaman 05-02-07, 07:19 AM	-The problem is this is that there was never anything that "corrupted" Araushnee. Araushnee is Lolth, and Lolth is Araushnee. It was Araushnee's own personality, her own ambition that created Lolth. Now, on the other hand, you could always try to cure the Queen of Air and Darkness, since an external "source" has corrupted her... Queen Who? I think I've heard about her (the Unseelie court, right?) but if that's the same "deity", I haven't heard she was FR material. Now, since I'd agree Araushnee was not "changed" by Lloth by anything else but her own ambition, the only way to "heal" her would be by putting some good in, not by taking evil out. What I would do would probably include having a cult a la the Dark Moon cultist (not the monks, the wackos who worship Selune and Shar as a single entity) attempt to join her with another or all of Corellon's consorts. Pity, since I think Sehanine Moonbow is a good deity, but if you want to do it, that might be the day. The two are somewhat mirror opposites to each other, even to the point where Lloth makes a point to insult Sehanine by having sacrifices on Sehanine's holy days.
Zandilar 05-02-07, 08:06 AM	Heya, Now, since I'd agree Araushnee was not "changed" by Lloth by anything else but her own ambition, the only way to "heal" her would be by putting some good in, not by taking evil out. What I would do would probably include having a cult a la the Dark Moon cultist (not the monks, the wackos who worship Selune and Shar as a single entity) attempt to join her with another or all of Corellon's consorts. Pity, since I think Sehanine Moonbow is a good deity, but if you want to do it, that might be the day. The two are somewhat mirror opposites to each other, even to the point where Lloth makes a point to insult Sehanine by having sacrifices on Sehanine's holy days. Have you read the novel, Tymora's Luck?
Lord Karsus 05-02-07, 09:27 AM	Have you read the novel, Tymora's Luck? -Good novel, that. Queen Who? I think I've heard about her (the Unseelie court, right?) but if that's the same "deity", I haven't heard she was FR material. -Yes, the Queen of Air and Darkness is the Mistress of the Unseelie Court. I don't know if she's been included in that stupid list of deities that now exist in the Realms or not, but I still adhere to the old cosmology- Since the Seelie Court is worshipped in the Realms, it only makes sense that the Queen of Air and Darkness is around, trying to mess up the plans of Titania.
Zanan 05-02-07, 10:09 AM	As has been said, Lolth is Araushnee, the very same person ... ahem goddess. She herself assumed that name, just as if you or me would take on a new alias. She just got annoyed with her husband's lack of ambition and ability to rule (or something along those lines) and attempted a shift in power. She was cast out, "ended up" as Lolth while Corellon and Co. dilly-dallied on as before. :evillaugh
GothicDan 05-02-07, 01:53 PM	It's too bad that she wasn't even good enough to take over a band of weak, dilly-dallying fairy-elves. ;)
The_Shaman 05-02-07, 02:22 PM	Heya, Have you read the novel, Tymora's Luck? Nope, I haven't read most Realms novels... in fact anything except Salvatore's original Dark Elf Trilogy and one other book by him. I'm a bit disappointed... I know they have a lot of information on the Realms but they are often quite conflicting. I take it that there might have been an attempt to bring back Tyche in a similar manner? Someone around that board mentioned that Lathander had such plans.
Zandilar 05-02-07, 08:13 PM	Heya, Nope, I haven't read most Realms novels... in fact anything except Salvatore's original Dark Elf Trilogy and one other book by him. I'm a bit disappointed... I know they have a lot of information on the Realms but they are often quite conflicting. I take it that there might have been an attempt to bring back Tyche in a similar manner? Someone around that board mentioned that Lathander had such plans. Well, I'll stick this in a spoiler block then... Lathander enlists the help of a Krynnish deity (Sirrion), who is really Iyactu Xvim in disguise (before the return of Bane), and some Krynnish tinker gnomes to build a device for the specific purpose of combining Tymora and Beshaba back into one entity, Tyche. With the help of a kender, Emilio, Joel the Rebel Bard and co (from Finder's Bane) attempt to rescue the two goddesses, while luck goes completely awry back on Abeir-Toril. Much hillarity ensures.
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 09:06 AM	She was cast out, "ended up" as Lolth while Corellon and Co. dilly-dallied on as before. :evillaugh -What's that saying? "Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven"? Something like that... Nope, I haven't read most Realms novels... in fact anything except Salvatore's original Dark Elf Trilogy and one other book by him. -You should really fix that problem. ;)
Zanan 05-03-07, 12:22 PM	-What's that saying? "Better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven"? Something like that... More something like .... the drow after the Descent went on to became the rulers of the Underdark; Lolth went on to re-climb to divinity, marched on becoming a greater goddess while subduing a few worlds and her plane before shifting it out of the Abyss ... WHILE Corellon's elves got humped all over the place and only now, after some 10,000 years or so, begin slowly coming back to the lands they vacated so miserably. And their master is ... doing nothing of note for that past few millenia either. That's in essence what I was saying. Drow propaganda! You'll hear it here first! :evillaugh (Hell and Heaven, what's that, BTW?)
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 12:28 PM	Drow propaganda! You'll hear it here first! :evillaugh -Of course. 'Zanan' is still the first thing I think of when I think 'Drow'. ;) (Hell and Heaven, what's that, BTW?) -Are you being serious? I can't tell...:(
Mirtek 05-03-07, 12:30 PM	Well, I'll stick this in a spoiler block then... But that's a completly different situation. Tyche was corrupted and changed so one could try to undo these changes. Araushnee never was. She is still the same she always was. She changed her look, but inside her personality never was anything different than she is today.
Zanan 05-03-07, 12:42 PM	-Are you being serious? I can't tell...:( Ironic. No Hell that drow or Lolth served in, or Heaven that Corellon lives ... ahem ... dilly-dallies in.
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 12:43 PM	-Gotcha.
Renvale999 05-03-07, 01:15 PM	Um.....I don't mean to be rude and all...but I could really use you guy's opinion on what Method I should use? I know the thread is completely de-railed but any input would be nice.
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 01:23 PM	-We already did: your plot is inherently flawed. But, if I needed to pick, I'd go with the second one. Perhaps the PCs can convince Araushnee to abandon her designs for the leadership of the Seldarine. And, Chronomany is always fun.
Renvale999 05-03-07, 03:08 PM	-We already did: your plot is inherently flawed. But, if I needed to pick, I'd go with the second one. Perhaps the PCs can convince Araushnee to abandon her designs for the leadership of the Seldarine. And, Chronomany is always fun. How is it inherently flawed?
Zanan 05-03-07, 04:30 PM	How is it inherently flawed? Essentially, you are trying to make good an evil that was evil before it changed its name. It is much like you have an evil red dragon going by the name Wrath, who, after another 350 years, takes a liking to the name Fury and assumes it as an alias. Does it make her a better - or good - red dragon if you want to change her back to Wrath? It remains as vile and evil as before.
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 05:42 PM	How is it inherently flawed? -I'll quote myself; Others second and third what I was saying, however: -The problem is this is that there was never anything that "corrupted" Araushnee. Araushnee is Lolth, and Lolth is Araushnee. It was Araushnee's own personality, her own ambition that created Lolth. Now, on the other hand, you could always try to cure the Queen of Air and Darkness, since an external "source" has corrupted her... -What I was saying is that there is nothing that "corrupted" Lolth/Araushnee. Her own personality is what did her in. Her own greed, her own ambition, her own pride, her own machinations- in short, Araushnee got Araushnee banished from Arvandor. -I'm not saying that this is a bad campaign idea or anything, but I'm just trying to "delve deeper", you know?
Renvale999 05-03-07, 06:54 PM	Essentially, you are trying to make good an evil that was evil before it changed its name. It is much like you have an evil red dragon going by the name Wrath, who, after another 350 years, takes a liking to the name Fury and assumes it as an alias. Does it make her a better - or good - red dragon if you want to change her back to Wrath? It remains as vile and evil as before. The very fact that Lolth was good at one time makes her redeemable, she wasn't born evil, therefore at one point she was good...it my opinion, that means that somewhere, deep down inside her, is something good, something that can be brought to the surface and make her face her evil deeds and find redemption. Look, I'm just asking, regardless of the fact if YOU believe she can be redeemed or not...which method(if you were going to run the campaign) would you use...that's all I'm asking...sorry
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 07:02 PM	The very fact that Lolth was good at one time makes her redeemable, she wasn't born evil, therefore at one point she was good...it my opinion, that means that somewhere, deep down inside her, is something good, something that can be brought to the surface and make her face her evil deeds and find redemption. Look, I'm just asking, regardless of the fact if YOU believe she can be redeemed or not...which method(if you were going to run the campaign) would you use...that's all I'm asking...sorry -You're not fully comprehending what we are saying, I don't think. Zanan's example was a good one. Araushnee's pride and ambition created Lolth. Lolth wasn't created due to some kind of malignant force corrupting Araushnee. Therefore, it isn't possible to "exercise" the evil out of her. Araushnee was just as evil as Lolth, but it was a "hidden evil" (jealousy, ambition, greed...).
Renvale999 05-03-07, 08:06 PM	-You're not fully comprehending what we are saying, I don't think. Zanan's example was a good one. Araushnee's pride and ambition created Lolth. Lolth wasn't created due to some kind of malignant force corrupting Araushnee. Therefore, it isn't possible to "exercise" the evil out of her. Araushnee was just as evil as Lolth, but it was a "hidden evil" (jealousy, ambition, greed...). LOL, and you're not comprehending what I'm saying LK. Forget it, I was really just wanting people to say..."Okay, even though I would never use said methods, or even if I don't believe Lolth can be redeemed...if the only choice I had was to use one of the three methods, which one would I use" That's all I'm asking...I understand everyone has an opinion on whether or not Lolth can/cannot be healed...I just wanted people to say "IF I HAD TO CHOOSE, NO OTHER CHOICE EXSITED, WHICH METHOD WOULD I USE?" That's all I'm asking.
Zandilar 05-03-07, 08:15 PM	Heya, The very fact that Lolth was good at one time makes her redeemable, she wasn't born evil, therefore at one point she was good This very assumption of yours is wrong. Arausnee may have been CN at best, but she was never actually good. If I were going to try and redeem Lolth, I'd start by realising that I'll have to actively "corrupt" her somehow. The easiest way would be option 3. Kill Lolth, and have someone of a Good alignment take her place... However, this is unlikely since there's already Eilistraee, and Ao is unlikely to agree to it unless it was actually Eilistraee taking her place.
Stigger 05-03-07, 08:36 PM	Ignoring everything else (and as a side note, as Araushnee has never been detailed to my knowledge, anything we say about her is conjecture, plain and simple, and as far as I'm aware, the stuff from Evermeet was told from a distinctly elven point of view, so of course they'd slant it against Araushnee...) I'd say go with method one Renvale. Come up with an epic version of the Sanctify the Wicked spell from the Book of Exalted Deeds, and use the artifact idea, just geting close enough to do it might be a problem, but that's where the PCs come in. Could be a lot of fun really. If you don't have it, I'd seriously suggest trying to get a look at the Book of Exalted Deeds, there might be some really useful stuff in there for you to draw from.
Lord Karsus 05-03-07, 10:42 PM	That's all I'm asking. -Well, in that case, like I said before, Method Two.
Zanan 05-04-07, 09:29 AM	The very fact that Lolth was good at one time makes her redeemable, she wasn't born evil, therefore at one point she was good...it my opinion, that means that somewhere, deep down inside her, is something good, something that can be brought to the surface and make her face her evil deeds and find redemption. Look, I'm just asking, regardless of the fact if YOU believe she can be redeemed or not...which method(if you were going to run the campaign) would you use...that's all I'm asking...sorry Well, I never ever read a line saying that Lolth, or Araushnee for that matter, was good at one point. And, by default (in this D&D world and setting), you are born good, evil or neutral. So I have my problems with regard to that "fact" you speak of. One may switch alignments - for whatever reason, but to me - and no insult intended whatsoever to all parties concerned - your attempt sounds more like (re-)converting someone to a faith rather than an alignment. At best, she was CN when Corellon wed her (would he have married her if she was CE?) ... and that is what you might want to change her back to. Yet, as it is with the drow (some attempted that too), you will have a hard time redeeming one who does not want to be redeemed nor has actually something in him or her that could be brought to the fore. Anyway, in your Realms you can do whatever you like and if you think Lolth can be turned back into Araushnee (CN), take the advice given above.
Renvale999 05-04-07, 10:02 AM	Jeez oh man, I never imagined I would have gotten all this stuff about how "she can't be redeemed" all this... To be honest, no matter what, no one has any credible evidence that Lolth can't be made to see the light once again. Just cause one has ambition, greed or whatever, doesn't mean that you can't make them see the error their ways...in my world, no one is beyond redemption, not even the gods themselves...Cyric, Bane, Malar...all, with the right situation and method, could be made to see the light and find hope. I know, most of you think I live in a fancy dancy world, but all I believe is that nothing is absolute...if good people, and even good gods, can fall to corruption, then why can they not find peace and redemption as well??
Stigger 05-04-07, 10:03 AM	Where'd the CN thing come from? I don't recall ever seeing her given an alignment one way or another, and if we're going off of Evermeet, that gives a semi-biased glimpse as it is, and from my understanding was at the point just before she went over to evil... If I'm wrong and she has been statted at least somewhat, I'd be curious to know the source. If its just a perception, I don't see why a good alignment couldn't be ascribed to her in earlier days. If it helps, I'd say I'm in pretty much complete agreement with you Renvale. If you can have a risen Tanar'ri, why not a risen god?
Mirtek 05-04-07, 01:03 PM	no one has any credible evidence that Lolth can't be made to see the light once again. Not "once again" but for the first time. She has never been good before. She simply hided her evil before the rest of the Seldarine while she still saw living among them as her best option. Once she got fed up and tried her hostile takover she simply stoped pretending and showed her true nature. So you may be able to somehow help her rise, but that's changing her to something new, not restoring her to something she once was. For this I would advise against using any artifact, spell or something else. This would just be brainwashing her and only make her good at the surface. There would always be the risk of someone healing Lolth from your "corruption" and returning her to her true evil nature. The only permanent way would be to convincer her of the errors of her way and show her how good is the better choice. For such an evil being like Lolth that would be difficult indeed.
Renvale999 05-04-07, 02:09 PM	Not "once again" but for the first time. She has never been good before. She simply hided her evil before the rest of the Seldarine while she still saw living among them as her best option. Once she got fed up and tried her hostile takover she simply stoped pretending and showed her true nature. So you may be able to somehow help her rise, but that's changing her to something new, not restoring her to something she once was. For this I would advise against using any artifact, spell or something else. This would just be brainwashing her and only make her good at the surface. There would always be the risk of someone healing Lolth from your "corruption" and returning her to her true evil nature. The only permanent way would be to convincer her of the errors of her way and show her how good is the better choice. For such an evil being like Lolth that would be difficult indeed. Where are you guys getting all this stuff that she was this evil person before she ever became Lolth?? They've never statted Araushnee, so therefore it's left up to personal opinion, and my OPINION is that she was good before she fell....jeeeez
Prince Indirian 05-04-07, 03:19 PM	There is a "GOOD" spell in the BOED, that literally forces the good alignment on a inheretedly evil being...heiighten that spell and it'll work on Lloth...:)
Meldread 05-04-07, 05:32 PM	Well, as I stated (or rather implied) above I don't believe Lolth herself can be redeemed. After all why would Lolth care or listen to what a bunch of mortals have to say? "Lolth, honey listen - you've been a bad girl. If you just renounce all the power you've worked so hard to amass you can be a good girl again!" Even in a world that requires you to suspend disbelief there are limits to which it can be suspended. However, I don't think this is a bad idea at all - I enjoy a good story. Bringing back Araushnee could be a great story it just has to be done in such away as to make sense within the setting of the world. Trying to convince someone who is thoroughly evil (and more than happy to remain so) isn't going to work. It requires her to listen. Therefore, it has to be forced upon her. I'll restate my original post in this thread seeing as how I'm going to assume most people just skipped over it. If I were going to do something like this, I would have the players run into a heretical cult of Lolth that worships Araushnee. It would be a mixture of Elvish Races (including Drow) living on the surface. They would believe that deep down inside (very, very deep down) there is some "good" left in Lolth, a part of who she was as Araushnee. Their ultimate goal would be to gather up a group of artifacts that would allow them to "draw out" the "goodness" in Lolth to reform into Araushnee. One might think of it as similar to the Tymora and Beshaba situation. The players would run into opposition from both good aligned elves as well as Lolth worshiping Drow all in an attempt to put an end to it. In the end, however the players would discover that the high priest, the one who oversees the cult is really a worshiper of Lolth and has manipulated the cult into getting the artifacts that he plans to use to drain the Elvish Pantheon of their divine power. (Giving it to Lolth instead.) The PC's ultimately find this out after its too late and have to prevent it from happening, and in doing so they are able to activate the artifacts to do what they set out to accomplish - that is to "draw out" the goodness in Lolth to reform as Araushnee. Lolth would be weakened as a result. The Drow will still have their goddess, and ultimately everything makes sense and is believable.
Wenin 05-04-07, 05:39 PM	Where are you guys getting all this stuff that she was this evil person before she ever became Lolth?? They've never statted Araushnee, so therefore it's left up to personal opinion, and my OPINION is that she was good before she fell....jeeeez You're just as guilty of pulling out conjecture and stating it as factual. Your anger is unwarranted.
Zanan 05-04-07, 06:39 PM	Wenin sums it up, more or less. No harm intended, but if you had stated that "in case Lolth, as Araushnee, was not evil but good, what needs to be done" ... people might not have pointed at facts and info known about her. Officially, Araushnee and Lolth have always been evil (we simply don't know anything about her youth etc.) in the books. As for CN ... that's not written anywhere either, just a good way to explain Corellon marrying her in the first place. For I doubt that he would have taken her as his wife if she had been evil. That's just a thought though.
Gelcur 05-04-07, 09:48 PM	Method 1 would be my choice if I were to run something like this especially for an ending. I always feel time travel is too contrived and unbelievable. Killing the god is just, meh, silly. But gathering a bunch of artifacts seem to lend itself to tons of adventures that can be completely different. Gathering this artifacts could turn her back to good, if she was that way. Or if she wasn't good, I honestly don't remember, then it could force an evil god to become good. This second option could be very interesting for a set of good adventures what extent are they willing to go for the better good. Seems Method 1 would lend to better plot and a better ending from a DMs perspective.
SATA 05-04-07, 10:48 PM	I don't like to play in the front lines rather play behind the scenes, that way can't be spotted in the controversy but had the urge to speak my mind about the subject at hand. By facts no one knows Araushnee's alignment before her transformation into Lolth, something that was all her doing, no outside factor, no intervention by something or individual or entity, just her own doings. So she might have been of any alignment in the past and that doesn't matter because she decided to change it (if she wasn't evil already) by her own will. So as many have said, there is nothing to "heal". This is not a matter of personal views or opinions, is about facts and the fact here is that doesn't matter if she was good aligned in the past, was her own will that change that so there is no corruption there. You may pursue the goal of change her still but it will be accomplish by performing a brainwashing on Lolth, as someone already said. That you can do by any method you like, be an epic spell, a ritual, an artifact/s, or any other way but will be a brainwashing and an actual "corruption" on her, so the ones to perform that should assume the morality and ethics of that action and the repercussions and of course, the possibility that Lolth come out of it by her own or by some help.
PharaunMizzrym 05-05-07, 04:43 AM	All of this depends on whether you believe allignment can take on physical form and exposure to it can change the allignment of a person. As taint is a physical evil that can turn a person evil through exposure, so too could a good form of taint exist. An epic spell/artifact could channel this in such a way as to 'purify' Lolth.
Stigger 05-05-07, 08:59 AM	Officially, Araushnee and Lolth have always been evil (we simply don't know anything about her youth etc.) in the books. What books though? Anything that wasn't a novel and not hugely open to spinning and interpretation?
Zanan 05-05-07, 09:12 AM	What books though? Anything that wasn't a novel and not hugely open to spinning and interpretation? Well, ever since she was statted / listed, she's been CE. Be it Monster Mythology, (FR) The Drow of the Underdark, Demihuman Deities, Faiths & Pantheons, and the new Drow of the Underdark* too. Only with one and a half eyes shut, you spot the CN in her actions in Evermeet (the novel) ... while, as I said you'd wonder if Corellon had wed her if she was CE in the beginning. *On a sidenote, she's still Intermediate Goddess in this book, but a) it is almost solely Greyhawk and b ) considers the Silence still ongoing. (Bite the hands off your booksellers to get it.)
Stigger 05-05-07, 09:36 AM	That's Lolth though, not Araushnee... we have next to nothing on how Araushnee was before her rebellion, say around the time she became Corellon's consort. That's like forming conclusions about the various germanic component states of the HRE in the 1100's based on modern Germany... Sure they're technically the same thing, but utterly different on all but the most superficial levels.
Renvale999 05-05-07, 10:32 AM	That's Lolth though, not Araushnee... we have next to nothing on how Araushnee was before her rebellion, say around the time she became Corellon's consort. That's like forming conclusions about the various germanic component states of the HRE in the 1100's based on modern Germany... Sure they're technically the same thing, but utterly different on all but the most superficial levels. Thank you Stigger, I wouldn't have been able to put it that way...if you're interepreting it from a novel...then you're so called facts on based on interpretation and opinion...your interpretation is by no means factual and to sit there and say "Oh yes Araushnee was CN...well again that's your opinion that has no real evidence to back it up. I know, I know I was doing the same thing up above and I'm sorry lol.
Renvale999 05-05-07, 10:33 AM	You're just as guilty of pulling out conjecture and stating it as factual. Your anger is unwarranted. I'm not angry Wenin, trust me. I've got a heart condition, I couldn't get angry if I wanted too, cause then I wouldn't be able to post cause I'd be up in the hospital lol. Sorry if I offended anyone before, I'm not angry I'm just talking
Tygs 05-05-07, 02:35 PM	I have a question, Renvale. In this future campaign you're speaking of how are you having Araushnee become Lolth? That would greatly help in not only easing the confusion of some people, but would also help define which option we would recommend. Methods 1 & 2 imply that somehow Araushnee went insane/became possessed or something similiar and there is something to heal. Method 3 implies that Lolth is not Araushnee in which case why not just attempt to ressurect Araushnee and let the 2 battle it out. I think alot of the confusion is that you are implying that somehow Araushnee become 'corrupted' by an outside source and is still under this influence. The books state that she CHOSE this. She chose to rebel against Corellon and her punishment was banishment to the Abyss. Yes, we are picking Araushnee's alignment of CN out of thin air, but would Corellon choose as his consort a CE goddess? I don't think so. For my 2 cents, Araushnee was the elven goddess of destiny. If you want want the Araushnee reborn plot, have it all come to conclusion in 1375 (Year of the Risen Elfkin) and have Arushnee's betrayal (and her fall and the drow's fall) be some elaborate way to escape/avert a destiny (some catastrophic event against the elves) she foresaw aeon's ago, and the PC's are a key element to finding this destiny and bringing it to light to the elves at large, and thus redeeming Araushnee using her old portfolio in a way that makes sense, at least to me.
QuenthelsChampion 05-05-07, 03:49 PM	Though she was never good nor never corrupted you could though try to take out the part of Lolth that is still Araushnee and make her the neutral goddess of destiny and such as she was before. To do this you could get a sect of dark elves. yes dark elves. Drow that found a way to turn back into dark elves and they come to your party by mistake or by reputation to try and get your group to do an empowered version of the ritual on Queen of Chaos herself, but to do this they have to find a sword kind of like a moonblade that was wielded by the only champion of Araushnee. The blade used on a full moon where no darkness can hide from the light strike Lolth and use the ritual while the blade is still within her and from the wound will come Araushnee. You have to escape from Lolth lair within the demonweb pits and Araushnee helps to turn Elis followers who wish it to be turned back into Dark elves and finally join her place back as the matron of the dark elves as Lolth and her drow help destroy them. QC
Renvale999 05-05-07, 05:42 PM	I have a question, Renvale. In this future campaign you're speaking of how are you having Araushnee become Lolth? That would greatly help in not only easing the confusion of some people, but would also help define which option we would recommend. Methods 1 & 2 imply that somehow Araushnee went insane/became possessed or something similiar and there is something to heal. Method 3 implies that Lolth is not Araushnee in which case why not just attempt to ressurect Araushnee and let the 2 battle it out. I think alot of the confusion is that you are implying that somehow Araushnee become 'corrupted' by an outside source and is still under this influence. The books state that she CHOSE this. She chose to rebel against Corellon and her punishment was banishment to the Abyss. Yes, we are picking Araushnee's alignment of CN out of thin air, but would Corellon choose as his consort a CE goddess? I don't think so. For my 2 cents, Araushnee was the elven goddess of destiny. If you want want the Araushnee reborn plot, have it all come to conclusion in 1375 (Year of the Risen Elfkin) and have Arushnee's betrayal (and her fall and the drow's fall) be some elaborate way to escape/avert a destiny (some catastrophic event against the elves) she foresaw aeon's ago, and the PC's are a key element to finding this destiny and bringing it to light to the elves at large, and thus redeeming Araushnee using her old portfolio in a way that makes sense, at least to me. In my world, Araushnee saw the Crown Wars coming(the whole destiny thing) and tried to stop it from coming. She pleaded with Corellon not to allow it happen, but he would hear none of it, as his people must choose their own path. This enraged Araushnee, and she invaded Arvaandor to de-throne Corellon before he allowed all the death. The reason she chose to invade with other evil dieties (such as Malar), is because no good god would go along with her, so she took the allies she could. For me, that would make the most sense.
Zanan 05-05-07, 05:42 PM	That's Lolth though, not Araushnee... we have next to nothing on how Araushnee was before her rebellion, say around the time she became Corellon's consort. That's like forming conclusions about the various germanic component states of the HRE in the 1100's based on modern Germany... Sure they're technically the same thing, but utterly different on all but the most superficial levels. Did I say anything else? And, BTW, Araushnee is Lolth. Much like I fancy the name Shan from tomorrow onwards and take that on. I will still be the very same Zanan. And the history of Araushnee (early Lolth) is not that obscure. To assume that she was good at some stage is like walking on very thin ice though. I could, with the same "authority", claim that Auril was once a good lass, or Talos. So if Renvale wants to get the good side of Lolth/Araushnee to the fore, s/he bases this on far more a hypothesis than me saying that she might have been CN at one stage. Not saying she was, but ... hey I am repeating myself a third time now ... I simply doubt that Corellon would have given the destiny of the elven race, the p-(m)atronage of the dark elves to a CE lass and married her, would he? Then again, we speak of Corellon. So going by what we know of Araushnee (we don't need stats for her back then, just a look into the sourcebooks) she already was "evil" before being cast into the Abyss and changing her name. That's fact. Have a look into DD or the novel. Everything else on her is hypothetical and should be discussed as such. Renvale ... that theory above is neat. Only that it is not one a "good" deity would do. From what we know, Araushnee was not out to save the elves 15,000 years later. But that need not concern your game plans.
GothicDan 05-05-07, 08:33 PM	While I do agree that I doubt Araushnee was CG to begin with, I do contest the fact that any alignment we have for Lolth now is a factual indicator of what her alignment might have been back then. It's a very good clue, perhaps, but that's like saying that the current Mystra (NG), was FACTUALLY always LN. This would be wrong: she was statted as LN as a mortal. To continue, we could say that, looking at Jergal's alignment now (LN), he was ALWAYS that way. That is also not a fact: he was once LE.
Lord Karsus 05-05-07, 09:40 PM	-It is likely that Araushnee, before betraying the Seldarine, was CN (perhaps with evil tendencies).
GothicDan 05-05-07, 09:56 PM	I really would like to know where she came from... You know, if she arose from the same 'even older gods' that the other Seldarine did, or elsewhere...
Lord Karsus 05-05-07, 10:09 PM	-An agent planted by the CIA to sew dischord in the going-ons of those Hippie Seldarine members, perhaps? The CIA has no scruples...
Wenin 05-05-07, 10:28 PM	I simply doubt that Corellon would have given the destiny of the elven race, the p-(m)atronage of the dark elves to a CE lass and married her, would he? Then again, we speak of Corellon. Maybe he saw something in her to love? =) Was able to see past her faults, that is until she attempted to overthrow him? =) Anyway, you have not explaination as to how she went from CN to CE. Perhaps she went from CG to CN to CE.... and whatever is displayed in Evermeet is when she was CN. =) I really need to read that book (Evermeet). Gothic Dan brings up an excellent point. Renvale, while you may not have been this angry -->http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M8pR1rZZHEs Which would have apparently sent you to the hospital... You certainly came off as hot under the collar in your post.
SATA 05-06-07, 01:28 AM	[...]By facts no one knows Araushnee's alignment before her transformation into Lolth, something that was all her doing, no outside factor, no intervention by something or individual or entity, just her own doings. So she might have been of any alignment in the past and that doesn't matter because she decided to change it (if she wasn't evil already) by her own will. So as many have said, there is nothing to "heal". This is not a matter of personal views or opinions, is about facts and the fact here is that doesn't matter if she was good aligned in the past, was her own will that change that so there is no corruption there. I quoted myself 'cuz I notice that too many people still argue about Lolth previous alignment, may be LG/CG/NG/N/LN/CN/NE/CE/LE, may be any of the possibles alignments and it doesn't matter, we don't know her previous alignment by fact and it doesn't matter at least in the subject at hand. She by her own will decided to change her alignment (if she wasn't evil already) so she wasn't corrupted by anything or anyone. By game mechanics, by common sense, this subject have no ground, nothing to stand on. You may pursue the goal of change her still but it will be accomplish by performing a brainwashing on Lolth, as someone already said. That you can do by any method you like, be an epic spell, a ritual, an artifact/s, or any other way but will be a brainwashing and an actual "corruption" on her, so the ones to perform that should assume the morality and ethics of that action and the repercussions and of course, the possibility that Lolth come out of it by her own or by some help.
Stigger 05-06-07, 02:28 AM	So if we pretty much know that the majority of the Seldarine are/were of a chaotic and good alignment, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that the matriarch of the pantheon was as well, at least at some point? Sure you could argue that fate should be fairly neutral (from a human perspective anyway), but you could also argue that he wanted the best he could manage for his children and so gave it to someone of a good heart to better provide for them.... I'm not sure why anyone is trying to declare the base idea as unsound when theres more than enough unknowns to make it at least somewhat possible.
Zandilar 05-06-07, 04:58 AM	Heya, So if we pretty much know that the majority of the Seldarine are/were of a chaotic and good alignment, wouldn't it be reasonable to conclude that the matriarch of the pantheon was as well, at least at some point? Araushnee was never the "matriarch" of the pantheon... she was Corellon's consort, which is not the same thing. From everything I've read, Araushnee was a fairly minor deity, and the only thing that made her important was her relationship to Corellon. (Yes, just saying that makes me feel like a traitor to my feminist tendencies! :yuck:)
Stigger 05-06-07, 01:32 PM	So that would kinda point to him liking her enough to bed her, but not enough to share authority with her... how very enlightened of him.
Zanan 05-06-07, 03:56 PM	Maybe he saw something in her to love? =) Was able to see past her faults, that is until she attempted to overthrow him? =) Anyway, you have not explaination as to how she went from CN to CE. Perhaps she went from CG to CN to CE.... and whatever is displayed in Evermeet is when she was CN. =) I need no explanations, as what we know of Araushnee and Lolth simply says: evil! The CN remark of mine was - as I said - hypothetical, assuming that Corellon and his kin had some brain between his/their ears. Never said she was actually CN though. I really need to read that book (Evermeet). Nope, just read the introduction to the Drow Pantheon and Lolth in particular in Demihuman Deities. Says it all. Gothic Dan brings up an excellent point. He usually does, most often excellent and well put. Not that he has any real clue :D .... .... ;)
GothicDan 05-06-07, 04:02 PM	I always know when I bring up good points! Usually. Sometimes. What was going on? *Goes back to watching Apocalyptica music videos.*
GothicDan 05-06-07, 04:03 PM	So that would kinda point to him liking her enough to bed her, but not enough to share authority with her... how very enlightened of him. So to you, sex automatically equals commitment and partnership? How terribly Christian of you...
Meldread 05-06-07, 06:18 PM	So that would kinda point to him liking her enough to bed her, but not enough to share authority with her... how very enlightened of him. Heh, is there any wonder she turned evil and started a society completely dominated by women (it all makes sense now!)? ;) Corellon tells her, "You know I love you, baby but here's the thing... I love my space and freedom, too. I like it that we have this type of relationship where I can do my 'thang' over at your place, then head back to mine right after. You know what I'm sayin'? You know how it is, baby, I'm like the head of the pantheon and you're well... you... and we could never be equals or nothin' like that. You know?"
Lord Karsus 05-06-07, 06:23 PM	So to you, sex automatically equals commitment and partnership? How terribly Christian of you... -That is the prevailing thought nowadays...
Zandilar 05-06-07, 07:31 PM	Heya, -That is the prevailing thought nowadays... Only in some parts of the world... and only in a Fundie paradise. :P As for sharing authority - we really don't know what went on between Corellon and Araushnee, so we can only speculate. If I'm going for humor, I'll say that Corellon was absentminded and meant no actual malice... he just didn't think to offer Araushnee equal authority (though he did give her patronage of the dark elves, where as before she was just a goddess of weaving).
Lord Karsus 05-06-07, 07:54 PM	If I'm going for humor, I'll say that Corellon was absentminded and meant no actual malice... he just didn't think to offer Araushnee equal authority (though he did give her patronage of the dark elves, where as before she was just a goddess of weaving). -It's probably better that he didn't do that. Corellon Larethian offering and giving things to Araushnee was what set her off in the first place! Only in some parts of the world... and only in a Fundie paradise. :P -What's a fundie?
Stigger 05-07-07, 12:22 PM	Er.. she was supposed to be his consort as far as I understand it... that kinda implies at least a moderate degree of commitment. And no, I don't think bedding someone implies any degree of commitment, and I have the former lovers to prove it. :tongue: :D
Zandilar 05-08-07, 12:05 AM	Heya, -What's a fundie? Fundie is short for fundamentalist, which is short-hand for (usually Right Wing) Religious Nut.
Lord Karsus 05-08-07, 09:23 AM	Fundie is short for fundamentalist, which is short-hand for (usually Right Wing) Religious Nut. -So, that the majority of the world equates sexual relationships with some kind of commitment, and/or some kind of relationship makes society fundamental? Okay...:shrugs:
Stigger 05-08-07, 10:07 AM	Were that the case LK, prostitution wouldn't be nearly as prevalent as it is... not even going to go into the whole nightclub/bar issue in a lot of western cultures.
Lord Karsus 05-08-07, 12:21 PM	Were that the case LK, prostitution wouldn't be nearly as prevalent as it is... not even going to go into the whole nightclub/bar issue in a lot of western cultures. -But, the fact that it is frowned upon, the fact that it is an "evil" thing, the fact that obtaining said services is a "sin" furthers my point. Were it not the case that with sex, some kind of relationship and/or commitment is expected, then prostitution, one-night stands, and so on wouldn't be looked down upon by society as a whole.
Zandilar 05-08-07, 06:56 PM	Heya, -So, that the majority of the world equates sexual relationships with some kind of commitment, and/or some kind of relationship makes society fundamental? Okay...:shrugs: No. Not quite like that. Fundies would love to restrict any (allowable) sexual activity (ie: missionary position, man on top) to the marriage bed, since sex is supposedly sinful and is only for procreation. Therefore, they equate sex to commitment. Anything else is adultery, and must be punished. :rolleyes: I'm not quite sure what you're getting at there, anyway, LK. To me, sex doesn't equal commitment - it equals intimacy. Intimacy and commitment are two different things. But then I'm wierd like that.
The WarOverlord 05-08-07, 10:57 PM	It depends on how you look at it Lord Karsus. Power of Faerun page 48: It is a bit of a chicken and the egg scenario, isn't it? This is why above I suggested that the players be introduced to a cult that believes that Lolth and Araushnee are the same being, but that a part of Araushnee still exists. They would want to free that aspect of Araushnee from Lolth, which would in turn free her of the "corruption" that you spoke of - as in Araushnee would be "born again" clean and pure - that which made her evil residing in the shell of Lolth that she leaves behind. Like the evil Captain Kirk/Good Captain Kirk effect from the malfunctioning teleporter? Well since it has already been proven that gods can make seeds that they burst out from there is no reason why Araushnee couldn't be separated from Loth as a separate entity....whether or not either side could take such a seperation or want it is another matter. A device consecrated to getting the "good" out of Loth to make another goddess shouldn't be that hard to make as there are a few spells that separate alignment and even a reverse version of the Spell "what's his face" (Life Blend 9th level,"Pages of the Mages", joins two beings together into new monster...the reverse could separate a being into 2 defined entities)
Lord Karsus 05-09-07, 12:04 AM	I'm not quite sure what you're getting at there, anyway, LK. -I'm not sure either. Why are we talking about this? I was thinking of a good snarky comment to end this post with, but unfortunatley, I failed. :(
GothicDan 05-09-07, 12:39 AM	Er.. she was supposed to be his consort as far as I understand it... that kinda implies at least a moderate degree of commitment. And no, I don't think bedding someone implies any degree of commitment, and I have the former lovers to prove it. Interesting thing about the implications of the word 'consort,' though. A consort is part lover, part confidante, and part best friend. It's a purely *personal* thing, with few formal assumptions of political/royal duty sharing or responsiblity. For instance, I think of Duke Lhaeto Atreides's 'concubine,' Jessica, as a good idea of a consort. It's more of an emotional tie than any formal societal one. The idea of consort that you seem to be thinking of is more like what the modern Western world considers to be marriage, which is a really strange amalgamation of religion, emotion, and politics. Consorts are not considered politically equals, per se, by default - though they can be! (And, I'm sure Araushnee considered Corellon to be HER consort, at best.) And, when your only ties to someone are purely emotional (as opposed to your ridiculous notion of marriage in America), then the idea of 'commitment' is much more fluid, and entirely dependent on how you feel about someone at a given time. Note that among the Elves, marriage is actually incredibly infrequent, for example, usually only reserved for when they find their soulmates. They often go year or sometimes decades without seeing those they consider to be their 'consorts,' and no one gets bothered by it. They're both free to live their lives as they will, to take on their own individual responsibilities, and only to give to the other what they feel is sincere - not because any higher social/religious moral code says they SHOULD do this or that (for instance, on Valentine's day..).
Fingoldfin 05-09-07, 02:02 AM	I like the idea. I would use the time travel method myself. The PC's could be contacted by an elf chronomancer who would like to help. If you decide to use time travel check out the 2nd edition accessory "Chronomancer." It has rules for time travel that you could adapt.
Stigger 05-09-07, 04:04 AM	Normally, I'd probably agree with you there Dan, but as far as Sehanine/Angharradh goes, it pretty bluntly puts her at the #2 spot as Corellon's consort in Demihuman Deities, and goes so far to characterize her as his wife, and mentions that she (in the Angharradh entry) co-rules with him... which would imply something a bit more than a casual meaning to the Seldarine's use of the term Consort.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 06:35 AM	As you said, it qualifies her as his wife, too. And Angharradh's 'origins' (mythologically, at least) were presented in the Evermeet novel. Corellon wasn't even aware of her existence (as far as we know) until he was near-mortally wounded, and she came into being to have the power to heal him. Thus, she proved a fierce loyalty to him before they ever became consorts. But that's a good basis for the start of a relationship, at least. The trust and love she showed there would qualify her in terms of a 'consort,' in time. As to her being co-ruler? Well, she's the only other Greater deity among the Seldarine, with power enough all of her own rule. She wouldn't -need- Corellon to hold onto that power, specifically. Surely their power is greater together than apart, but she would still be a ruler-figure among the elven pantheon by sheer force alone. Thus, in other words, she's both Corellon's consort, perhaps spouse (coming into existence solely to prevent someone from dying sounds like a soulmate to me) and co-ruler. The first could very easily lead to the second, but the last does not necessarily come from the first - but could be inferred from the second (marriage, assuming a typical Western monarchy-type deal). Araushnee did not appear to be Corellon's wife or co-ruler, only his consort.
Zanan 05-09-07, 07:00 AM	Araushnee did not appear to be Corellon's wife or co-ruler, only his consort. Elves ... :rolleyes: And then people come up and slag off drow matrons for being so ... well, you know. BTW, one would like to know what "consort" means in an elf's mind.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 07:20 AM	I already postulated what I thought it would mean, above. I think it's a pretty well-thought out definition, given their culture. Mind you, as consort and emotionally involved with Corellon, I hardly think that he ignored any of her suggestions (well, some of them...), so much as I'm saying that in an Elven mindset, consort does not equate automatically with committment and equal division of political power/responsibility. Elven society is still very individualistic (obviously inherited from the Seldarine), and for the most part you're marked by your own worth, not who you happened to marry. After all, the Drow have to have SOMETHING in common with the rest of the Elves: pride in their own strengths.
Stigger 05-09-07, 09:13 AM	Can't say I agree with your definition of consort there, but I'm not in the mood to argue the point at the moment. Maybe later when I'm more awake and the meds kick in.
Lord Karsus 05-09-07, 09:30 AM	Can't say I agree with your definition of consort there, but I'm not in the mood to argue the point at the moment. Maybe later when I'm more awake and the meds kick in. -Stop being sick, will ya!?
Stigger 05-09-07, 06:05 PM	Heh, I'm almost over the illness, its the high winds and pollens that are doing me in at the moment with the allergies. :D
GothicDan 05-09-07, 06:50 PM	You don't have to agree, Stigger. I know that I'm right, anyway. ;) The way I see 'consort' has a vaguely Scandinavian feel to it, I guess... Liberal and based on personal merits rather than universal ethical laws. As Elves have always had roots in traditional Germanic mythology, I think that only strengthens my postulate.
Bonzai 05-09-07, 07:10 PM	I can see this as a fun campaign. I would go for the acumilation of artifacts, and a ritual. The idea behind it, would be to remind her what it is to be an elf. Off hand, I can think of several examples of artifacts. 1. A token of Corellion's forgiveness. Perhaps a ring... perhaps, THE Ring, a ring he gave her as a sign of his love. Assuming they had some sort of feelings for each other, and had some good times together she would be reminded of them. This artifact would be blessed by Corellion and show that his love and forgiveness are there for her, if only she can forgive her self. 2. A token of the wild. Perhaps an imortal flower of unsurpassed beauty and sent. This would remind her of what it is like to live under the sun, to feel the wind in ones hair, and the sights and smells of the forest. 3. A token of the elven people. Some type of flute, or other instrament that plays a haunting, and eerily beautiful song. This is the song of the elven people, and represents the communal link that all elves share. By hearing this music, she would once again feel a link to the elven people, filling the void that the absence of that link has left behind. 4. A token of rebirth. This would be the actual location of the ritual. I would have it in an extremley holy, and historic grove. Infact, make it the place of Eliestrae's birth. A clearing ringed by ancient trees, and a crystal clear and unaturally calm pool, that perfectly reflects the sky above. 5. The ritual. These artifacts must be gathered, and a ritual performed in the sacred grove, and a night with a full moon. Loth will be summoned to the grove, and the artifacts must be used. It should flood her with memories and experiences. She must be compelled to look down at her reflection in the pool, and she will see herself as she once was, and can be once again. 6. A token of Loth's repentance. As she looks down upon her former, and possible self, seeing the joy and happyness that she could once again have, she must make her choice. If she truly wishes to repent, and return to what she was, she will shed a few tears. When they hit the water, the pool will ripple for the first time. When the disruption clears, she will see herself as she is, the evil Loth, and then slowly the image will blur and fade, revealing her new/old self, as she herself has now changed. Yeah, perhaps a little cheesey, but that is how I would structure the ritual. It of course must be down with the blessing and aid of both Correllion and Eliestrae. It could be a great end to your campaign, the redemption of the drow, and their return to the surface. Have fun.
Lord Karsus 05-09-07, 07:20 PM	You don't have to agree, Stigger. I know that I'm right, anyway. ;) -Mr. Dictionary agrees and disagrees. CONSORT con·sort /n. ˈkɒnsɔrt, v. kənˈsɔrt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[n. kon-sawrt, v. kuhn-sawrt] -noun 1. a husband or wife; spouse, esp. of a reigning monarch. 4. a companion, associate, or partner.
GothicDan 05-09-07, 07:42 PM	How can one even take into consideration a source that contradicts itself? ;)
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 12:06 AM	How can one even take into consideration a source that contradicts itself? ;) -It's not really that Mr. Dictionary contradicts himself. It's more like he's...indecisive.
GothicDan 05-10-07, 12:15 AM	So, it abstains from voting.
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 12:37 AM	-Mr. Dictionary actually made me his fiduciary and gave me power of attorney over his vote.
Zandilar 05-10-07, 01:02 AM	Heya, Generally speaking, Mr Dictionary advises all possibile meanings for a word. He leaves it up to the reader to decide what meaning the word holds in whatever context it is used in. By the way, have I ever mentioned I rather dislike the word consort? I think every instance of it in Realms source material should be replaced by what the writer actually intended to say, but didn't because they were trying to be smart (or tip toe around touchy subjects).
Stigger 05-10-07, 01:12 AM	Words are hardly immutable fact... hell, that's not really even true of numbers a lot of times... really there's very little in the way of immutable fact in the world, especially when dealing with a language. You interpret it one way Dan, and I'll interpret it another... you want to ascribe a germanic origin to elves, you're welcome to, I prefer to divorce most of my definitions of them from real world mythology as much as I possibly can, in favor of a more Faerun specific outlook without real world baggage tagging along... neither one is right, neither one is wrong. Though otherwise I'd generally agree with Zandilar that consort is a distasteful word when its used in the Realms by and large. Just too nebulous...
Tygs 05-10-07, 08:23 AM	It's not so much a contradiction as it appears. Take a look at Queen Victoria and her consort, her husband Prince Albert. Just by title you can tell it wasn't an equal sharing of power. You can formalize the relationship or not, doesn't change the relationship unless the parties involved change it.
Stigger 05-10-07, 08:50 AM	Don't think Prince Albert was actually legally allowed to take the title King. Don't recall the details offhand, but I'm pretty sure that was the case.
Zandilar 05-10-07, 09:05 AM	Heya, It's not so much a contradiction as it appears. Take a look at Queen Victoria and her consort, her husband Prince Albert. Just by title you can tell it wasn't an equal sharing of power. You can formalize the relationship or not, doesn't change the relationship unless the parties involved change it. The trouble is the consort can mean more than just spouse of a ruler... It can mean - spouse, especially of a ruler. It can also mean - companion, associate, or partner. Companion can mean a person frequently in the company of, associates with, or accompanies another. Associate can mean a companion, partner, or ally. Partner can mean a person who shares or is associated with another in some action or endeavor, or a spouse (husband or wife), or a defacto/live-in-lover (ie: not married, but romantically involved), or either of two people who dance together, or a player on the same team. As you can see, consort doesn't automatically mean an unequal partnership at all. Laeral has often been described as Khelben's consort, and I wouldn't want to tell Laeral that she's not as powerful as Khelben! Harping on the fuzziness of the word consort again, when you use the word where there's no context behind it (such as in the FRCS entry for Elversult, regarding Yanseldara and her consort Vaerana Hawklin), it leaves things entirely too fuzzy. What is the relationship? Is Vaerana Yanseldara's spouse? Lover? Ally? Associate? Partner? Companion? A combination of two or more of the above? The only context we have to go on is that the word "consort" is frequently used in the Realms as another word for spouse. Filfaeril was Azoun IV's consort. Laeral was Khelben's consort. Haedrak is Zaranda's consort. Therefore we could conclude that Vaerana is Yanseldara's wife (or lover). However, without more clarification, this is just a guess. I chose to go along with the tendancy of the evidence in the use of the word - but others might not. (Mind you, both interpretations are strictly correct - but I'm the sort who'll fight tooth and nail for queer visibility in the Realms, so I'd prefer to be right! :cool: (I should add that just cause I harp on lesbians all the time, doesn't mean I wouldn't be jumping up and down like this if Yanseldara was actually Daethran the male half elf and Vaerana Hawklin was actually Kiirthain Greenhair the male human))
Lord Karsus 05-10-07, 09:13 AM	It's not so much a contradiction as it appears. Take a look at Queen Victoria and her consort, her husband Prince Albert. Just by title you can tell it wasn't an equal sharing of power. You can formalize the relationship or not, doesn't change the relationship unless the parties involved change it. -How formal the relationship is is one of the points that we are discussing. Therefore, you can't just "ignore it", or "go one way or another"!
GothicDan 05-10-07, 02:11 PM	Well, we do know that Araushnee complains about only having as much power as was GIVEN to her by Corellon...
Stigger 05-10-07, 04:52 PM	Which is true of any Consort... the name itself implies an inferior position in regards to a Crown. If she's good enough to be named a Consort, why not a Queen? Not like there's silly little laws in the way, as there often was with human monarchies...
GothicDan 05-10-07, 05:08 PM	How does consort imply inferiority? I wouldn't mind referring to a potential boyfriend as a consort, and I wouldn't consider him inferior because of it. It implies a level of political separation, I think. And I already said why they most likely wouldn't get married... Each Elf only has one soulmate, and unless one's your soulmate, you don't get married. Obviously Araushnee was not Corellon's soulmate... for good reason.
Stigger 05-10-07, 06:05 PM	Politically, being named a Consort is quite different from being named a King or Queen, at least as far as most definitions go, at least as far as Earth is concerned. Generally, they get to produce royal heirs and act as a spouse, but they have only as much political power as their Royal spouse allows them to. Which is kinda inherently inferior in most respects... I'm not going to go into the whole marriage issue, since I think its a non-issue in a lot of respects. If he's going to bother declaring his love for her by naming her his Consort, why not take it a step further and name her his Queen? I've seen tons of relationships violently destroyed over lesser 'equality' issues... personally, I tend to sympathize with Araushnee, finding her more understandable, though not quite justified in the extreme she went to.
GothicDan 05-11-07, 02:16 AM	Politically, being named a Consort is quite different from being named a King or Queen, at least as far as most definitions go, at least as far as Earth is concerned. Generally, they get to produce royal heirs and act as a spouse, but they have only as much political power as their Royal spouse allows them to. Which is kinda inherently inferior in most respects... So, what would Corellon have been to Araushnee, if not her Consort in return? Does that infer that she would have 'made' him inferior to her, too? To me, Consorts are free to gain whatever power they want, separate from the power of their partner. Araushnee certainly believed the same. I'm not going to go into the whole marriage issue, since I think its a non-issue in a lot of respects. If he's going to bother declaring his love for her by naming her his Consort, why not take it a step further and name her his Queen? I've seen tons of relationships violently destroyed over lesser 'equality' issues... personally, I tend to sympathize with Araushnee, finding her more understandable, though not quite justified in the extreme she went to. Demanding that you get a full share of someone's power just because you're in love with them at any given point in time...? That sounds terrible to me. You can expect someone's devotion, attention, affection... But what you're talking about sounds dangerously like a nuptual agreement or the like. The idea distinctly reeks of more modern religious values to me.
Stigger 05-11-07, 07:35 AM	Nope, Corellon was the head of the Pantheon... he could name a Consort and have it mean as much or as little as he wished, in an 'official' sense. She didn't exactly have the power to do that on anywhere near the same scale. Had she been Labolas' consort, it wouldn't have really mattered much, and maybe Araushnee would still be part of the Seldarine... maybe her ambition really was that corrupting and she'd have fallen anyway... who knows? To be honest, from what little I've seen of the exchange between Corellon and Araushnee, it sounded to me more like rage at being a favoured pet rather than an equal lover, he always had a supremacy over her and either couldn't or wouldn't do something to rectify or apparently even address that problem. Everything came at his beneficience, and could be taken away just as easily as it had been given... that's hardly a good thing to have hanging over a relationship more often than not. And a woman receiving a lesser share of 'power' in a relationship is far more indicative of "modern" religious values than anything else. Those "modern" religious values tend towards the barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen rather than anything even approaching egalatarianism. Nuptual agreements are pretty much secular in origin, not religious, and what I was saying had nothing to do with any variety of nuptual agreement, quite the opposite really. She had his devotion, attention, and affection, what she didn't have was an equal position with him... She (and the rest of the Seldarine for that matter, by extension) had absolutely nothing he couldn't take away from her if he wished to. That imbalance obviously bothered her, and drove her to an extreme (an understandable extreme, but not necessarily a justified extreme). Was that necessarily Corellon's fault, probably not intentionally, but perhaps had he been a bit more understanding and done something to address her feelings, which he was apparently not even aware of, maybe things could have been different... which ultimately is the point. And the big looming question really.
GothicDan 05-11-07, 10:08 AM	Nope, Corellon was the head of the Pantheon... he could name a Consort and have it mean as much or as little as he wished, in an 'official' sense. Really? Where does it say that's the definition of an Elven consort? She didn't exactly have the power to do that on anywhere near the same scale. "Consort" does not necessarily mean a royal person to a lesser, again. Had she been Labolas' consort, it wouldn't have really mattered much, and maybe Araushnee would still be part of the Seldarine... maybe her ambition really was that corrupting and she'd have fallen anyway... who knows? To be honest, from what little I've seen of the exchange between Corellon and Araushnee, it sounded to me more like rage at being a favoured pet rather than an equal lover, he always had a supremacy over her and either couldn't or wouldn't do something to rectify or apparently even address that problem. I really don't see it as a problem. There was nothing against feminine power or the like among the Seldarine. There were other more powerful deities. Araushnee just wasn't one of them. Why in the world should Corellon have given her even MORE power just because he loved her? That would be showing ultimate favortism, and in our government, it's called corruption. The spouses of our Senators, for example, don't automatically have equal power in our government! Everything came at his beneficience, and could be taken away just as easily as it had been given... that's hardly a good thing to have hanging over a relationship more often than not. Well, when two people are working in a relationship, and one of them is making a lot more money than the other, how is that first person at fault? And a woman receiving a lesser share of 'power' in a relationship is far more indicative of "modern" religious values than anything else. Araushnee, REGARDLESS OF GENDER, "should" have received NO power. Those "modern" religious values tend towards the barefoot, pregnant, and in the kitchen rather than anything even approaching egalatarianism. Nuptual agreements are pretty much secular in origin, not religious, and what I was saying had nothing to do with any variety of nuptual agreement, quite the opposite really. Really? All I'm getting from this argument are a bunch of people trying to justify Araushnee's rage by appealing to some liberal mindset, which in fact flies completely contrary to how things "should" be working. Everyone should be judged individually, by their own merit and power, NOT who they are the wives or husbands of. I think Elven society would support this idea. She had his devotion, attention, and affection, what she didn't have was an equal position with him... How was that his fault? You're saying that JUST because they were in a relationship, he should have AUTOMATICALLY given her everything she wanted, irregardless of whether or not she actually earned it? She (and the rest of the Seldarine for that matter, by extension) had absolutely nothing he couldn't take away from her if he wished to. Just like the head of any other pantheon? That imbalance obviously bothered her, and drove her to an extreme (an understandable extreme, but not necessarily a justified extreme). Was that necessarily Corellon's fault, probably not intentionally, but perhaps had he been a bit more understanding and done something to address her feelings, which he was apparently not even aware of, maybe things could have been different... which ultimately is the point. And the big looming question really. I don't see where you're getting this stuff from. Corellon is a CG god, the alignment MOST likely to have felt another person's emotions in this case and responded to them.
Lord Karsus 05-11-07, 10:22 AM	Really? Where does it say that's the definition of an Elven consort? -Stigger was being very general. Look at what he said again. It was Corellon Larethian's perogative to decide how much or low little the title "counted". How was that his fault? You're saying that JUST because they were in a relationship, he should have AUTOMATICALLY given her everything she wanted, irregardless of whether or not she actually earned it? -You, sir, do not understand women...;)
GothicDan 05-11-07, 10:28 AM	Really? I'd truly hope that some feminists would agree with me. ;) I know I wouldn't feel the same way if Corellon's Consort had been, say, male. It's obviously not a Male vs. Female thing, since Corellon felt it fit to basically name Angharradh both his consort and wife. She obviously had the personal power and merit that Corellon did not see in Araushnee.
Stigger 05-11-07, 10:38 AM	Really? Where does it say that's the definition of an Elven consort? "Consort" does not necessarily mean a royal person to a lesser, again. Where do you see any definition of what an elven consort is? Or isn't for that matter, but... Being the head of a pantheon does tend to kinda imply a certain royal twist to it... particularly since we can probably safely assume that the early elven nations modelled themselves after their deities in at least some respects in regards to their governance... Coronals ruling things would kinda point towards that. I really don't see it as a problem. There was nothing against feminine power or the like among the Seldarine. There were other more powerful deities. Araushnee just wasn't one of them. Why in the world should Corellon have given her even MORE power just because he loved her? That would be showing ultimate favortism, and in our government, it's called corruption. The spouses of our Senators, for example, don't automatically have equal power in our government! A King is somewhat different from a senator... a senator is voted into office, or out of, while Corellon certainly doesn't rely on being voted into the head of the Seldarine... As to why he should have, I don't think he should have really. That's not the point though, the point is she felt inferior in the relationship and he did nothing to allay that, at least that we've seen. From the brief snippets I've seen of their conversation, he seemed genuinely surprised about her betrayal, which pretty much says he either wasn't aware of her feelings, or something considerably less complimentary to him. Well, when two people are working in a relationship, and one of them is making a lot more money than the other, how is that first person at fault? What does that have to do with anything? You're talking about something that relies on external factors, he was basically the boss there, the one who parcels out power and status... not that she seemed all that interested in anything he was offering. We don't have much to go on as to why she betrayed him... we know she wanted more and resented his power over her, or something like that, and that she sold him out for whatever reasons... and very little beyond that. Its the most vague answer to the Why? question that leaves much to be desired. Perhaps you don't mind accepting it at face value, I however, do not share the opinion that anything in history should be accepted at face value. Araushnee, REGARDLESS OF GENDER, "should" have received NO power. I don't disagree with that. I don't think she disagreed with it either... she seemed more interested in independence from Corellon's power, rather than more of it being given to her. Though obviously I didn't make that clear in my previous post, rereading it. Really? All I'm getting from this argument are a bunch of people trying to justify Araushnee's rage by appealing to some liberal mindset, which in fact flies completely contrary to how things "should" be working. Everyone should be judged individually, by their own merit and power, NOT who they are the wives or husbands of. I think Elven society would support this idea. Current elven society certainly would support the idea... however we have absolutely no idea what elven society was actually like during that period... considering the implied social structure during the Crown Wars, it is highly likely that it was radically different from its current form. It would follow that the Seldarine have also changed along with it. Power of Faerun pretty clearly states that deities and entire pantheons change along with their followers, though it leaves which causes that change up to us to decide. How was that his fault? You're saying that JUST because they were in a relationship, he should have AUTOMATICALLY given her everything she wanted, irregardless of whether or not she actually earned it? It wasn't his fault, unless it was one of simple negligence towards her feelings on the matter, presuming a best case scenario for him. Just like the head of any other pantheon? Maybe, maybe not. I can only think of it ever being said that Corellon has any particular ability to hand out portfolios and strip others of their divinity... never seen any similar abilities ascribed to Yondalla, Moradin, or Garl... don't think Horus-Re has that ability either, or Set would have been toast long ago. I don't see where you're getting this stuff from. Corellon is a CG god, the alignment MOST likely to have felt another person's emotions in this case and responded to them. Obviously he got blindsided by Araushnee, so he couldn't have been that perceptive of her feelings... or that responsive if he did know they were there. I could probably go on, but fatigue is catching up and the brain isn't working quite as well as I'd like it to for a debate... so I'll leave it there.
GothicDan 05-11-07, 10:46 AM	I guess I will, too. We have some pretty obvious definitions in our heads of 'consort' in this context... And I'm behind in packing to go home!
Tyberian 05-11-07, 04:21 PM	The way I see it is that you can't heal her but you could change her. All your party would have to be chaotic good female drow bard/clerics with the heretic of faith feat who would start out clr 1/brd 4 and then add 5 levels of evangelist. They would then convert drow using the convert the unfaithful ability and convince them to remain converted with a really good perform:oratory. The perform oratory could be augmented by pious soul. Enough checks of 30 or higher and you would attract the spider queen's personal attention which could be good or bad... Also, they could augment their religious power by creating relics dedicated to the heresy. If they really wanted to powergame, these relics could be ancestral relics and made more powerful as they gained levels. If they succeeded in converting enough of the faithful followers and killed enough of the rest, they could eventually force her to embrace them. Also, they would all want the leadership feat and rulership and extra followers. Their cohorts, and possibly the player characters themselves could be half-drow to speed up the level progression. The only problem with this whole set up is that the spider queen has millions of followers as a greater goddess. Good luck.
Zandilar 05-12-07, 08:04 PM	Heya, Obviously he got blindsided by Araushnee, so he couldn't have been that perceptive of her feelings... or that responsive if he did know they were there. Or... Araushnee was concealing her true feelings. ("True power is not given, it's seized!" or words to that effect) That's my bet.
Stigger 05-12-07, 09:07 PM	Have a hard time swallowing that a lesser power, at least I seem to recall it being mentioned she was a lesser power, could conceal much of anything from a greater power... unless he was utterly blinded by his own feelings, which makes him not naming her his Queen make even less sense.
GothicDan 05-12-07, 10:05 PM	Stigger... Quit thinking in terms of stats! Read the Illiad.. Divine power is really subjective.
Lord Karsus 05-12-07, 10:41 PM	-Remember how we were talking about when exactly Lolth became a deity? As per Evermeet: Island of Elves, she was still a Demon when she scoped out the Dark Elves of Atorrnash. "Ka'Narlist's dark and vaulting ambitions set new flame to her own. Lloth would be a goddess once more." This implies that she was not yet a deity. This is about -24,400 DR. Later on, in -23,200, as Ilythiir is founded, we already know that Lolth is worshipped as a goddess, since the Sundering altered the general "worship breakdown" by eliminating most Vhaeraunians and Ghaunadaurans. If she indeed actually became a goddess at this point, that means that the transformation took place sometime between -24,400 and -23,200 DR.
Zandilar 05-13-07, 02:18 AM	Heya, Have a hard time swallowing that a lesser power, at least I seem to recall it being mentioned she was a lesser power, could conceal much of anything from a greater power... unless he was utterly blinded by his own feelings, which makes him not naming her his Queen make even less sense. It depends. The kind of power you're talking about would be something Corellon would have to actively use. If Araushnee was convincing enough, Corellon may not have thought to check... Corellon may have had enough love, respect, and most importantly, trust for Araushnee as an independant entity that he did not want to pry that deeply into her "personal space". We are talking about Chaotic Good Corellon, you know. Personal freedom and respect for such is very important to someone with a Chaotic Good mindset! :) In the end, we mere mortals cannot hope to comprehend even the slightest bit of what it is to be a god. We filter everything down into terms we can understand, which means we miss out on layers and layers of subtelty. Therefore we cannot possibly hope to understand exactly what went on - boiling it down to a "scorned" woman's reaction for not being treated "right" is overly simplistic.
Stigger 05-13-07, 02:47 AM	I have read the Illiad... didn't much care for it. Then again the whole Greek and later Roman pantheon just left me cold in general... they seemed more like jealous, rutting teenagers than gods to me. All I can say is we obviously have very different takes on deities, so the arguement is probably futile to begin with... seemingly we have a fairly different view on divine perceptions as well. Boiling things down to a simplified level wasn't quite what I was getting at... my point there had nothing to do with the whys and whats of it, simply that we don't have the full story, so that reaching truly solid conclusions wasn't really possible. There are a lot of different ways that could be interpreted and viewed, not just one black and white absolute truth to the matter. We know what happened, but not why or how, I guess is a concise way of putting it.
redking 05-13-07, 06:31 AM	Araushnee was evil which is why she was cast down, and restyled as Lolth. There is no real chance of redemption for Lolth. The only thing that could bring about an alignment change would be to split Lolth in two by tricking Lolth to get into the apparatus, an artifact that is able to split a single being into 2 separate beings along an alignment split. For example, if Lolth could be tricked into the apparatus, the potential for Lawful Good could be split from her Chaotic Evil, thus creating two beings, one LG and one CE.
Steelwind 05-13-07, 08:13 AM	So Lolth is on Cynosure having just ended a meeting with some other evil or nefarious entity when Corellon walks in for an appointment with his allies. As he looks up and sees her about to walk back to her portal, a smirk appears across his face as he nods and says "Araushnee". This makes Lolth hopping mad and go on a tangent about his insolence and how he will pay, as Corellon reminds her that she never made him "pay" before, but I guess you gotta do what you gotta do to pay the bills. Then in rage and frusration she gives a big "hmph" and walks through her portal cursing his name, leaving Corellon with a big smile on his face. This is just a funny thought that came to me while I was reading this thread.
Stigger 05-13-07, 08:28 AM	Why do I get the feeling that Markus is going to use that at some point...
GothicDan 05-13-07, 09:21 AM	I have read the Illiad... didn't much care for it. Then again the whole Greek and later Roman pantheon just left me cold in general... they seemed more like jealous, rutting teenagers than gods to me. All I can say is we obviously have very different takes on deities, so the arguement is probably futile to begin with... seemingly we have a fairly different view on divine perceptions as well. Boiling things down to a simplified level wasn't quite what I was getting at... my point there had nothing to do with the whys and whats of it, simply that we don't have the full story, so that reaching truly solid conclusions wasn't really possible. There are a lot of different ways that could be interpreted and viewed, not just one black and white absolute truth to the matter. We know what happened, but not why or how, I guess is a concise way of putting it. That had nothing to do with what you actually said, though, regarding Corellon's divine power level versus that of Araushnee, and if the above was what you were truly getting at, then why in the world would you bring up the whole Greater vs. Lesser thing at all..? Regardless of how you personally feel, the deities of FR are much more heavily inspired by Classical myths than anything resembling modern divinities and divine rule... Which seems to be what you regularly base your opinions on, consciously or unconsciously (a more Christian mindset in terms of morality and religion). In the end, we mere mortals cannot hope to comprehend even the slightest bit of what it is to be a god. We filter everything down into terms we can understand, which means we miss out on layers and layers of subtelty. Therefore we cannot possibly hope to understand exactly what went on - boiling it down to a "scorned" woman's reaction for not being treated "right" is overly simplistic. This, I agree with. All we have is what happened, according to mortal perceptions. It would be impossible for us to know ALL of what happened, as Stigger suggests. To reserve judgment on situations just because we do not have TOTAL knowledge would realistically result in us being utterly paralyzed from making any decisions or opinions. I don't know about you guys, but I like to LIVE my life.
Stigger 05-13-07, 02:02 PM	I'm remarkably puzzled how you come to the conclusion that any of that has anything to do with a Christian mindset... particularly in a morality sense, as I'm pretty sure I don't have nearly enough of a judgemental attitude. Much more of a secular humanist really. Were I truly of a Christian mindset, I would have absolutely no problem accepting what was written at face value and seeing it at absolute immutable truth... I'm not really sure what those modern divinities are though, can't think of any offhand, unless we go into Hinduism, but those aren't exactly newish. ;) As to why I would bring up greater versus lesser, that power difference does come into play in my mind, at least on some level. Its not a view you espouse particularly, I know, but from a purely mechanical point of view even, the entire situation doesn't make a lot of sense... nor does it really make much sense otherwise really. Seems just a bit too... well... mortal of a mistake to me. Corellon seems like a pretty empathic and intuitive sort of fellow, seems odd that he'd get that blindsided by someone he was presumably spending a lot of time with. And were he that much in love that he'd be that duped, why not have made her the co-ruler... but I get the feeling we have too different of a view of the way divinity should work to really see each others points there. Perhaps it comes from not having read enough of the novels, but my view of the pantheon is that the inspiration came from classical myth, but largely the personalities and practices did not. They don't seem nearly as capricious or as willing to utterly screw over a mortal, just because they could, just for fun, or just to make some unknowable point, which incidentally I find Christianity full of examples of. Just seems that the good ones actually have some level of care of their worshippers beyond being worshipped and feared... which I thought showed through even with a lot of the more neutral ones. And of course life is for living, and with that whole involuntary breathing thing, it can be a little difficult to avoid... well, not without far too much discomfort for my liking. We don't need total knowledge of these things to make a decision or opinion, but it must be understood that without that total knowledge, 90% of the time what we know is open to interpretation. More than likely, even with that total knowledge, its still going to be open to interpretation, since the same thing can often mean different stuff to different people.
Lord Karsus 05-13-07, 07:45 PM	I don't know about you guys, but I like to LIVE my life. -You can't live your life. You do not exist. I'm remarkably puzzled how you come to the conclusion that any of that has anything to do with a Christian mindset... -I think he takes exception to the fact that you want your deities to have more omnipotence and more omniscience, as opposed to the classical "bickering and vying for power" pantheons.
GothicDan 05-13-07, 10:56 PM	Indeed, LK. :) That and Stigger's very.. Um... Formal ideas of consorts and power sharing... I just don't see it working like that among the Elves. And in reality, it just doesn't. They very rarely get married, and allow each other to live their own lives and forge their own power..
Dxzauvrinn 05-14-07, 12:24 AM	Hello to all, For about 2 years now I've been debating on how a group would go about turning Lolth back into Araushnee. I'm sorry if this sounds crazy, but it's been debated in other threads and several people on these boards say they have toyed with/ran with the idea. As of right now, my group is currently playing Shattered Gates of Slaughterguarde, Expedition to Castle Ravenloft, and City of the Spider Queen in succesion. When we are done with these, we are moving to my final campaign as a DM(I'm retiring and moving to Sci-Fi, so the newbies can get their hands dirty). In this last campaign I want to have a group of adventurers(hopefully elven and good-aligned drow/half-drow, but it doesn't really matter) seek out a way to either bring back Araushnee, or silence Lolth herself forever. I know, PC's shouldn't be able to kill gods and all that, but I plan on having the PC's getting help from "higher sources." I have several plans of attack and I want to know all of your opinions on each method (Please no "You can't kill/mess with/change gods posts, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it, but that's not what I'm looking for). Method 1: You heal Lolth and turn her back into Araushnee...doing so would require the gathering of several artifacts, all of them sacred to either Lolth, Araushnee or Corellon himself. The PC's would have to perform the ritual and fend off any would be attackers in the process. Method 2: The PC's go back in time(and figure out a way to do so would be the main jist of the campaign) and stop Lolth from turning in the first place, thus re-writing history(I know AO would interfere, but for this campaign he is gonna sit this one out). Method 3: The PC's flat out kill Lolth and resurrect Araushnee somehow..again I know the whole point of view...you can't kill gods all that jive, but again in MY campaign world, you can. This would be the most brutal campaign and the PC's would most likely have to try and destroy several of Lolth's more powerful servants(draw them away from Lolth in order to weaken her before the main assault). Each one has it's own merits and rewards, but I would like to get your opinions on this matter, as well, any alternative methods you can think of would be most welcome. Thank you in advance for your time and effort. Renvale Like almost everyone else in this incredibly long thread, I don't believe Lolth/Araushnee was ever good. I've come to that conclusion because everything I ever read about her under either name indicated that she was an extremely evil manipulator who was not only NEVER corrupted, but was actually a corrupter. For example, Lolth is basically responsible for corrupting the dark elves and having them cast into the Underdark and turned into the drow. It was also Lolth who corrupted her own grandson and fellow deity, Selvetarm. Lolth has even corrupted demons, turning succubi into yochlol. Now, if you want a way to possibly "FORCE" her to become good, the only thing I can think of that might do the trick and make sense is to have her absorb a good greater god in the same way that Selvetarm turned evil when Lolth tricked him into absorbing the abyssal lord, Zanassu, the Spider Demon. Here's an idea on how to trick Lolth into doing this that would likely be an epic quest for the PCs. The PCs spread rumors about an ancient divine secret that if a god absorbs the essence of a powerful goodly god (let's say Corellon to sweeten the bait) that god would not only become more powerful (which I think is a known fact amongst gods), but would ascend to a divine rank on par with Ao. Now, the challenge in this would be A) finding a way to lure Corellon (or whatever other god they choose) out of his divine realm and into a position of weakness so that Lolth can take advantage of him and kill him; or B) ask the god nicely to allow Lolth to kill him and absorb him in order to make Lolth a good girl; or C) trick the god into believing that Lolth has hatched some terrible plot that will destroy the world and give her ultimate power if that particular god doesn't stop Lolth by killing her on her own plane. If that god is Corellon, maybe the PCs could convince him that Lolth will allow him on her plane because she still has a soft spot in her heart for her ex-husband. At the same time, if the PCs convince Lolth that Corellon is the god with the divine spark she needs to become an overpower, I'm sure she'd allow him to enter her Demonweb so she can take his power.
Meldread 05-14-07, 12:38 AM	It won't work, and here is why - Lolth has been around a long time. It might work for someone like Cyric (though even this is doubtful), but Lolth herself has seen Greater Gods come and go. She's seen Greater Gods be killed by lesser deities, absorbed, destroyed, pretty much all manor of "deaths" you can think of for a deity - Lolth has seen it. Not to mention, as you said, she used a similar trick herself to corrupt Selvetarm. While Lolth may be a tad on the insane side of things, she isn't stupid and would - using both her knowledge of past events and keen sense of manipulation - see right through it. However, I do agree with your primary thought that in order for Lolth to become good, she must be forced into becoming that way against her will. This is certainly possible.
Dxzauvrinn 05-14-07, 01:51 AM	It won't work, and here is why - Lolth has been around a long time. It might work for someone like Cyric (though even this is doubtful), but Lolth herself has seen Greater Gods come and go. She's seen Greater Gods be killed by lesser deities, absorbed, destroyed, pretty much all manor of "deaths" you can think of for a deity - Lolth has seen it. Not to mention, as you said, she used a similar trick herself to corrupt Selvetarm. While Lolth may be a tad on the insane side of things, she isn't stupid and would - using both her knowledge of past events and keen sense of manipulation - see right through it. However, I do agree with your primary thought that in order for Lolth to become good, she must be forced into becoming that way against her will. This is certainly possible. Well, the plot I hatched up might not work (or it might depending on how well the PCs sale it), but I definately think if Lolth absorbed a greater good deity she'd be somewhat purified, though maybe not completely, perhaps just enough to become neutral since she is a powerful evil. The PCs primary job if they figure out that this could work, is finding a way to get her to do it. I'm sure Lolth would love to kill Corellon if she had the chance.
Meldread 05-14-07, 03:10 AM	Killing Corellon and absorbing his divine essence into her are two different things. Not to mention the whole fact you'd have to convince Corellon that he should die for the "greater good". Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from I just don't think it'd be believably possible. (Unless you're an FR Realms Author, in which case the deities act and react in ridiculously unbelievable and stupid ways - then this would be 100% plausible.) However, seeing as you are not and you wish to immerse people into the story you're weaving, you must make things logically consistent. Lolth doing this isn't very logically consistent with her knowledge and past experiences. I still stand by my earlier suggestion that the best way of forcing Lolth "good" is to collect a bunch of artifacts that in turn FORCE her into such an alignment. Meaning that they alter fundamentally who and what she is as a divine being. She would no longer be Lolth, but Araushnee reborn and purified.
Stigger 05-14-07, 08:49 AM	Indeed, LK. :) That and Stigger's very.. Um... Formal ideas of consorts and power sharing... I just don't see it working like that among the Elves. And in reality, it just doesn't. They very rarely get married, and allow each other to live their own lives and forge their own power.. That's hardly a Christian mindset... the ideas of cooperation and mutual respect among gods is hardly inherently Christian in origin... far from really. That idea, for me, stems from having read the dogmas and the information of relationships, and not seeing a whole lot of conflict that, generally speaking, wasn't along alignment lines. The mentioning of the various alliances and friendships amongs them also indicated a fairly cooperative and generally genial relationship amongst a good deal of them. There just wasn't much to point towards the classic 'bickering' pantheon idea you seem to view them with, at least that wasn't generally along alignment lines. As to my formal ideas of what a consort is and isn't... had Corellon just taken up with her and had an informal relationship, I wouldn't have cared one way or another. Whatever, makes no difference, just his mistress... rulers can pretty much do what the want that way. However for a person, or deity, in what essentially equates to a King names an official consort, that implies a considerably less than casual relationship. Like it or not, historically, that's how it works. Not even having kids with her really changes that much, rulers had kids by their mistresses all the time, and no one blinked. If memory serves, its where the 'Fitz-' came into naming conventions, implying the bastard son of a monarch who was given a duchy or something to that effect. He could have carried on without any formal declarations quite happily, like a lot of other elves do, but if hes going to bother to announce that formal declaration, presuming he did and that some theologian didn't just tack on the consort title to be polite, then why then not make her his Queen is my question.
Zandilar 05-14-07, 09:04 AM	Heya, He could have carried on without any formal declarations quite happily, like a lot of other elves do, but if hes going to bother to announce that formal declaration, presuming he did and that some theologian didn't just tack on the consort title to be polite, then why then not make her his Queen is my question. Well, if we're taking the definition of Consort to mean spouse of a ruler... Why doesn't any King/Queen make his/her consort his/her Queen/King (or co-King/co-Queen)? There must be reasons. (I think Angharadh is just called his Consort too, and isn't recognized as his Queen - remember that many elves refuse to acknowledge her existence at all... And Sehanine, who often seems to stand in Angharadh's stead, isn't concidered his Queen either.) There is a difference between the term Wife/Husband and Consort. They have completely different conotations. In some ways, a Consort is just an official Mistress/Boy-Toy*. *Or whatever the danged equivelant term to Mistress is for a male.
Stigger 05-14-07, 09:29 AM	Well, often times there are legal issues as to why they can't be named Queen or King... I think much of Prince Alberts sprang from the ugly rumors that he was in fact a bastard jew (literally, the bastard son of a jewish soldier or officer, not actually his fathers son), and the fact that his father divorced his mother. Victorian mores and morality didn't even like the Queen marrying him really... they certainly weren't going to allow him to be King. Don't recall offhand what Prince Phillips family did to get named consort, but I seem to recall it having something to do with the collapse of the Greek monarchy. My memory is really hazy on it unfortunately. Last I checked though, Angharadh/Sehanine was referred to as his wife/spouse (forget which term was used specifically)... and neither one is actually referred to as King/Queen/Coronal, despite effectively holding that position. And of course I recall that Angharadh isn't recognized... I prefer to ignore her existance myself too, really, considering the ire it raises amongst those who have the power to emasculate me. :D
Khaelieth 05-14-07, 09:40 AM	As for CN ... that's not written anywhere either, just a good way to explain Corellon marrying her in the first place. For I doubt that he would have taken her as his wife if she had been evil. That's just a thought though. Casting Detect Evil on your wife might be a tad... wrong. Like going through her texts (Hasn't stopped me from going through my GF's texts, but it turned out she had been up to bad things). But I'm curious though... Exactly how would they turn Lolth to the light? IMO, she started off tabula rasa and quickly turned evil.
Lord Karsus 05-14-07, 10:41 AM	(I think Angharadh is just called his Consort too, and isn't recognized as his Queen - remember that many elves refuse to acknowledge her existence at all... -One of Angharadh's titles is "Queen of Arvandor". -And most Sun Elves do not buy into the Angharadh myth. I don't either.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 01:20 PM	That's hardly a Christian mindset... the ideas of cooperation and mutual respect among gods is hardly inherently Christian in origin... far from really. That idea, for me, stems from having read the dogmas and the information of relationships, and not seeing a whole lot of conflict that, generally speaking, wasn't along alignment lines. The mentioning of the various alliances and friendships amongs them also indicated a fairly cooperative and generally genial relationship amongst a good deal of them. There just wasn't much to point towards the classic 'bickering' pantheon idea you seem to view them with, at least that wasn't generally along alignment lines. You said, 'having read the dogmas and the information of relationships'... What are you talking about, exactly? As to the 'bickering pantheon' part... Well, that's the view that's been shown (to one extent or another) among the Norse, the Celts, the Greek, the Romans.. Basically every major polytheistic society in Europe, and Faerun is a roughly European-based fantasy world. Where are you drawing YOUR conclusions from? As to my formal ideas of what a consort is and isn't... had Corellon just taken up with her and had an informal relationship, I wouldn't have cared one way or another. Whatever, makes no difference, just his mistress... rulers can pretty much do what the want that way. However for a person, or deity, in what essentially equates to a King names an official consort, that implies a considerably less than casual relationship. Like it or not, historically, that's how it works. Historically, in Faerun? Examples, please! :)
GothicDan 05-14-07, 01:23 PM	-One of Angharadh's titles is "Queen of Arvandor". Isn't Corellon's main title the Coronal of Arvandor? Hm...
Lord Karsus 05-14-07, 01:56 PM	Isn't Corellon's main title the Coronal of Arvandor? Hm... -Yes, yes it is. Corellon Larethian = Coronal (King) of Arvandor Angharadh = Queen of Arvandor
GothicDan 05-14-07, 02:14 PM	Though it should be noted that Coronal isn't exactly the same as King. Anyway, this proves my point: Elves, in general, only marry their soulmates, and they only have one soulmate. And they KNOW when they've met their soulmate. Araushnee and Corellon thus knew all along they weren't soulmates. Thus, they wouldn't get married.
Stigger 05-14-07, 03:38 PM	You said, 'having read the dogmas and the information of relationships'... What are you talking about, exactly? As to the 'bickering pantheon' part... Well, that's the view that's been shown (to one extent or another) among the Norse, the Celts, the Greek, the Romans.. Basically every major polytheistic society in Europe, and Faerun is a roughly European-based fantasy world. Where are you drawing YOUR conclusions from? Obviously that should be taken to mean that having read Faiths & Avatars, Powers & Pantheons, Demihuman Deities, and Faiths & Pantheons, the general theme of the dogma and relationships that have been detailed between various deities has always struck me as at least cordial and often complementary to each other, at least as far as most good and neutrally aligned deities are concerned. Obviously there are exceptions to that, but in general, the rule tends to hold. Even among the more evil deities there is some semblance, though a weak one, of cooperation and semi-meaningful alliance. Perhaps you're allowing too many Earthen views of polytheistic pantheons to slip into your view of Faerun's deities and color your perceptions of them? Historically, in Faerun? Examples, please! :) Interesting... so as far as deities go, you're willing to take the more Earthen perception of historical views on Pantheons, yet you can't quite use the same view for the word Consort... as to the history of the word Consort in Faerun, as far as I'm aware we don't quite know enough of the etymology of most words, particularly in an elven context, so must rely on the historical significance of a word on Earth as we don't really have detailed evidence to go off of. Besides that however, due to what I presume are politically correct reasons, the word Consort in Faerun has a rather nebulous meaning at best. They've really gotta find another word to give a bit more clarity one of these days... Strange though that the word Coronal is used to describe Corellon, while Queen is used to describe Angharadh (or however that's spelled)... never noticed that one before for some reason. Thought the Coronal title was gender neutral actually. Regardless of any of it however, it has very little to do with the subject at hand.
Stigger 05-14-07, 03:43 PM	Though it should be noted that Coronal isn't exactly the same as King. Anyway, this proves my point: Elves, in general, only marry their soulmates, and they only have one soulmate. And they KNOW when they've met their soulmate. Araushnee and Corellon thus knew all along they weren't soulmates. Thus, they wouldn't get married. That... is really stretching things a bit too far. Perhaps I missed something in the lore, but I don't recall ever seeing anything that says they 'know' their soulmates "on sight"... I'm not even going to go into the whole 'knew they weren't soulmates' thing, as I find it too absurd a notion to address for the moment.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 03:58 PM	It's in the CBoE. And if I can remember correctly, I think that soulmates, after they meet, have a sort of special connection to each other, which they can use to feel each others' general states of being and the like. It may seem far-fetched, but my explanation does take into account the most amount of canon without invalidating any of it, nor clashing with any of the personalities involved.
Stigger 05-14-07, 04:11 PM	Just read over that section... didn't see anything that said they 'just knew' though, at least not that I saw.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 04:13 PM	Perhaps I'm misremembering that part. *Goes to read.*
Prince Indirian 05-14-07, 05:25 PM	It's in the CBoE. And if I can remember correctly, I think that soulmates, after they meet, have a sort of special connection to each other, which they can use to feel each others' general states of being and the like. It may seem far-fetched, but my explanation does take into account the most amount of canon without invalidating any of it, nor clashing with any of the personalities involved. Does the CBoE talk about Evermeet or Moon Elves or the like, or Mythals or Elven High Magic? They all still exist, as evidenced in the various FR material. The CBoE applies to CORE D&D, not FR, specifically. If you don't like that, take it up with WotC. :D :P Sorry GD, I just had too. Don't take seriosly;)
GothicDan 05-14-07, 05:30 PM	The difference is, things from the CBoE HAS been used in FR, such as Bladesingers and the creation myths and the like. I don't care if you were kidding about it, I'm responding as if you weren't. ;)
Stigger 05-14-07, 06:04 PM	I was gonna point that out too, but decided to take the high road with it... :tongue:
GothicDan 05-14-07, 06:07 PM	High road. Ha!
Stigger 05-14-07, 06:12 PM	Yeah, well obviously it got boring up there, so I came on down to the low road to pelt you lot with snowballs. :tongue:
Mikayla 05-14-07, 07:08 PM	The one sure-fire way to convert Lolth from Chaotic Evil to "Good" is to convince WotC/Hasbro that they will sell more books if that happens. Convince them of that, and faster than Emiril can say "BAM!" Lolth will be "redeemed" and be good. Aside from that I would have to say the route lies through Corellon's contrition as I stated in that other thread in which we discussed this. Yes, I know, Araushnee is responsible for 95-99% of the problem with their failed relationship, but even if Corellon is only responsible for 1% of their failed relationship, he is the "good" god and he is the "bigger" person, so its going to be up to him to make the first move towards reconciliation. Lolth is too selfish and insecure to make the first move - so its up to Corellon. Naturally, she will take advantage of it, but if Corellon reacts with love rather than violence and hate, I think you'd have a chance. Violence begets violence after all, which is why gods like Shevaresh will never solve the "drow problem" unless they actually manage to kill all the drow (and that is very unlikely given that after 10,000 years of the elves and drow warring, the drow have expanded from the defeat and descent 10 millenia ago while the Elves have retreated and only now are returning to Faerun - so, despite the efforts of the elves, the drow have not been exterminated). Anyway, it would be a fun and interesting quest if written well, and could have a very satisfying ending - an ending that is not awash in blood, but in a real victory - peace through understanding and forgiveness rather than peace through extermination.
Prince Indirian 05-14-07, 07:13 PM	The difference is, things from the CBoE HAS been used in FR, such as Bladesingers and the creation myths and the like. I don't care if you were kidding about it, I'm responding as if you weren't. ;) You are right though, we could eleven chain etc...as well Personally Lloth got away easy...she's been casuing immense damage and the Seldarine could easily take her out...CL is being nice as it is...or lazy...
Zandilar 05-14-07, 07:15 PM	Heya, -One of Angharadh's titles is "Queen of Arvandor". -And most Sun Elves do not buy into the Angharadh myth. I don't either. Obviously my recollection is poor... :D And the fact that I'm still at my mother's house looking after her felines while she and her consort... oops husband... are in Adelaide, means I don't have access to my books... So I couldn't check... Yeah. That's my excuse. ;) I have mixed feelings about Angharadh. She's one of those deities I looked at and immediately felt an affinity for. Eilistraee I associate with Artemis, and Angharadh I associate with Athena. I am not entirely certian why, but it has something to do with her in her warrior/protector aspect. But on the other paw, she seems like... well the people behind her were trying too hard to incorporate a true triune goddess (like Brigid) in the Realms, and rather than coming up with an entirely different deity, they took three existing deities, deities that don't have much of an association at all with one another's portfolios, and mashed them in to one conveniant package that gives Corellon three women for the price of one. There's a part of me also, that thinks Corellon doesn't need a consort/queen - lovers he should have, yes, and of both genders. He is supposed to represent all elves, male and female both together. He's described in many sources as androgynous, sometimes as genderless (though this, I'm not entirely sure on), and also that he appears evenly as male and female, giving no favour to either gender. I went through a phase of refering to him as he/she, and only sheer laziness stops me from doing so now. The longer he's been in the Realms, though, the futher he seems to go from this. Giving him three women for the price of one smacks of trying to emphasise his manly heterosexuality - look at him, he has not one, not two, but THREE women, what a great MAN! (It probably was not the intention of the designers, I might add, just one way it might be interpreted if one was being paranoid and silly! :P). I'm sure there are quite a few Realms fans out there that don't realise that Corellon is the gender bending deity. ;) Anyway, last point for this post. If Angharadh doesn't exist, then there isn't a "Queen of Arvandor". Sehanine isn't described that way, and she's his "default" consort in the absence of Angharadh.
GothicDan 05-14-07, 10:53 PM	I think your point about Sehanine is poignant, Zandilar. It's not so much that Corellon is getting THREE WOMENZ!, as much as he's getting ONE equal partner, in terms of raw power. And the whole three-as-one deity thing is... Arguable, even if in real life myth. I've heard some people critisizing the idea even among Celtic deities as falsified, and more of a romantic notion than a relgiously historical one. I like Angharradh a lot, though, because she was introduced in a novel that was largely, by the author's own admission, supposed to contain a lot of that high romance feel. And let's remember that Angharradh was largely expounded upon in the Evermeet novel BY a female. ;) (Mrs. Elaine Awesome Cunningham!)
Dxzauvrinn 05-14-07, 11:48 PM	Killing Corellon and absorbing his divine essence into her are two different things. Not to mention the whole fact you'd have to convince Corellon that he should die for the "greater good".[QUOTE] I never said they weren't. I never said in the plot I hatched that Corellon or the god they choose to dupe, AGREES on the plan. I said that they need to convince him to attempt to kill her on her own plane to stop some terrible world threatening evil from taking place. THAT would be Corellon (or the goodly god's) motivation (though it'd be a lie just to get his lazy arse moving). Don't get me wrong, I see where you're coming from I just don't think it'd be believably possible. (Unless you're an FR Realms Author, in which case the deities act and react in ridiculously unbelievable and stupid ways - then this would be 100% plausible.) How do you know I'm not a Realms author? Do you think Dx'zau'vrinn's my real name? :D Also, I feel that this plot is quite believable. Lolth already wants to kill Corellon. She hates him more than any other being in the multiverse. It wouldn't take much to motivate her to kill him and absorb his powers given if she had the right opportunity. Making the reward (or having her believe that this is the reward) something as sweet as matching Ao in power, well, I just don't think any evil god (and some neutral ones) could resist that, especially an ambitious girl like Lolth.
MaskedOne 05-15-07, 01:00 AM	Araunshee became Lolth by choice and has consistently re-affirmed that choice for millenia. She'll cease to be Lolth when she makes a new choice and holds to it. Barring an excessive use of force that I (won't speak for the rest of you) find distasteful at best and an evil meriting lethal response at worst, the matter really is that simple. Everything else that I'm aware of is just background detail. Araunshee/Lolth is precisely who she chooses to be, don't like it, convince her to change her mind. Eh well, survive the various complications that life provides and change her mind but I didn't say it'd be easy, just simple.
Zandilar 05-15-07, 01:09 AM	Heya, I think your point about Sehanine is poignant, Zandilar. It's not so much that Corellon is getting THREE WOMENZ!, as much as he's getting ONE equal partner, in terms of raw power. You mean, the three goddesses form one mega-goddess of equal power to Corellon? (Oh gods no, now I'm thinking that Angharadh is the female version of either Captian Planet or Voltron... that can't be a good sign for my sanity... :nonono:) I do actually agree with you there. :) And the whole three-as-one deity thing is... Arguable, even if in real life myth. I've heard some people critisizing the idea even among Celtic deities as falsified, and more of a romantic notion than a relgiously historical one. Very interesting thought there. We really should keep in mind a lot of what we know of ancient myths have been distorted over time... So what we know now may bear little resemblance to what they knew then. :) I like Angharradh a lot, though, because she was introduced in a novel that was largely, by the author's own admission, supposed to contain a lot of that high romance feel. And let's remember that Angharradh was largely expounded upon in the Evermeet novel BY a female. ;) (Mrs. Elaine Awesome Cunningham!) I like Angharadh too, even if it might not have sounded like it from my comments. The first thing I said about her was that I felt a strong affinity for her, and associate her with Athena, a goddess for whom I feel genuine reverence. The three in one deal, and the fact that many elves reject her entirely just doesn't seem to sit right with me, though. Either she does exist or she doesn't, and there can't be doubt... because there isn't doubt about the gods in the Forgotten Realms, everyone knows they exist, everyone believes in them (okay, so maybe there are some who deny them, but they're quite insane). Clerics of Angharadh gain spells, what more proof does anyone need?
MaskedOne 05-15-07, 01:29 AM	Heya, You mean, the three goddesses form one mega-goddess of equal power to Corellon? (Oh gods no, now I'm thinking that Angharadh is the female version of either Captian Planet or Voltron... that can't be a good sign for my sanity... :nonono:) I do actually agree with you there. :) I'd offer other comparisons but the only ones that come immediately to mind are modern cartoons/anime and I'm not so certain you want those.
Meldread 05-15-07, 06:23 AM	Dxzauvrinn- The problem with your plan is that you're requiring two divine beings with literally THOUSANDS of years worth of knowledge and experiences, on top of divine intelligence be stupid enough to fall for a pretty simple plan. A plan that would require one deity to be dumb enough to get himself killed and another deity to be dumb enough to fall for a carrot dangled in front of her face. Keep in mind that Lolth has both 41 intelligence and wisdom. Do you think a divine being with that much intelligence and wisdom is going to fall for that plan, especially if you tack on the fact that she literally has tens of thousands of years of accumulated knowledge and experience?
Lord Karsus 05-15-07, 09:23 AM	I like Angharradh a lot... -And you call yourself a Sun Elf...:nonono:
Stigger 05-15-07, 09:54 AM	Indeed... its a shock. A scandal. Appalling.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 12:32 PM	I'll let Stigger be my Sun Elf in terms of Angharradh. ;) The three in one deal, and the fact that many elves reject her entirely just doesn't seem to sit right with me, though. Either she does exist or she doesn't, and there can't be doubt... because there isn't doubt about the gods in the Forgotten Realms, everyone knows they exist, everyone believes in them (okay, so maybe there are some who deny them, but they're quite insane). Clerics of Angharadh gain spells, what more proof does anyone need? The difference is, there's no other active tripirate deities in the pantheons. A 'Cleric of Angharradh,' for all the Sun Elves know, could just be gaining spells from Sehanine Moonbow or Aerdrie Faenya!
Dxzauvrinn 05-15-07, 01:30 PM	Dxzauvrinn- The problem with your plan is that you're requiring two divine beings with literally THOUSANDS of years worth of knowledge and experiences, on top of divine intelligence be stupid enough to fall for a pretty simple plan. A plan that would require one deity to be dumb enough to get himself killed and another deity to be dumb enough to fall for a carrot dangled in front of her face. Keep in mind that Lolth has both 41 intelligence and wisdom. Do you think a divine being with that much intelligence and wisdom is going to fall for that plan, especially if you tack on the fact that she literally has tens of thousands of years of accumulated knowledge and experience? That depends on how much work the PCs put into it. The idea I gave was just the seed. Its up to the PCs to make the plan grow and put in the work it would take to pull it off. They may need to involve abyssal lords or any number Lolth's enemies (maybe Corellon and Lolth's son, Vhaeraun) to get it to work. Surely some of those enemies may find the PCs quest foolish, but they may back them just to see Lolth dead...err purified. The PCs would need those type beings assisting them anyway to spread this bit of misinformation in Lolth's circles and also because I'm sure the PCs, being good, don't have epic level bluff skills or the underworld connections. They may even need to plant some evidence or weave this into some facet of truth that already exist. Never said it would be easy. In fact, it shouldn't be. But is it possible? Yes. Like I said, it depends on the PCs and it's a WAY for what this guy has in mind to work. In my game, I'd probably have Lolth flay the PCs alive and then cast them into a pit of fire where they'd burn eternally without dying. But, this guy obviously believes "healing" Lolth is possible and I'm just trying to help find a way. Though certain tasks may seem daunting and all but possible, that just means that they need more work to accomplish them. The feat this guy seeks to accomplish is one of those crazy campaign ending worlds changing quest anyway. It definately needs to be hard and not as simple or temporary as holding Lolth down with a grapple check and welding a helm of alignment on her head.
Mikayla 05-15-07, 01:42 PM	Indeed - I believe I am in agreement with a poster who previously stated that the only way to "heal" Lolth is to get her to change her own mind, as she is the one who chose her course of action. And I think thats right and it jives with my previous suggestion - but ultimately, thats where the solution lies - forcing someone to be good through magical compulsion, absorbtion of deific force, or any other method of coercion is not really "redemption" - redemption comes when the person who has done wrong atones for that wrong willingly - so, the trick is not how do you "force" Lolth to become "good" (or at least neutral) but how do you convince her to do it on her own - and THAT is a monumental quest. I'd rather take on the task of destroying the one-ring, the Death Star, or Ticketmaster's monopoly on concert-ticket sales. Of course, "impossible" missions to rid the world of evil are what lie at the very heart of great D&D games, so, I dunno, sounds like a great quest to me. :) (And if you can break Ticketmaster's monopoly on ticket sales along the way, I would be doubly happy...)
Dxzauvrinn 05-15-07, 01:57 PM	Indeed - I believe I am in agreement with a poster who previously stated that the only way to "heal" Lolth is to get her to change her own mind, as she is the one who chose her course of action. And I think thats right and it jives with my previous suggestion - but ultimately, thats where the solution lies - forcing someone to be good through magical compulsion, absorbtion of deific force, or any other method of coercion is not really "redemption" - redemption comes when the person who has done wrong atones for that wrong willingly - so, the trick is not how do you "force" Lolth to become "good" (or at least neutral) but how do you convince her to do it on her own - and THAT is a monumental quest. I'd rather take on the task of destroying the one-ring, the Death Star, or Ticketmaster's monopoly on concert-ticket sales. Of course, "impossible" missions to rid the world of evil are what lie at the very heart of great D&D games, so, I dunno, sounds like a great quest to me. :) (And if you can break Ticketmaster's monopoly on ticket sales along the way, I would be doubly happy...) I agree.
Lord Karsus 05-15-07, 04:41 PM	The difference is, there's no other active tripirate deities in the pantheons. A 'Cleric of Angharradh,' for all the Sun Elves know, could just be gaining spells from Sehanine Moonbow or Aerdrie Faenya! -Or Hanali Celanil. Poor Hanali Celanil...She get's no respect. Though it should be noted that Coronal isn't exactly the same as King. -For the most part, the two terms are basically interchangable. King is to Coronal as Battery is to Energizer.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 04:45 PM	The only King we've ever seen referred to as such was Zaor. I think that's a rather telling fact. I think King/Queen have more spiritual connotations, whereas Coronal has more political.
Lord Karsus 05-15-07, 04:51 PM	The only King we've ever seen referred to as such was Zaor. I think that's a rather telling fact. I think King/Queen have more spiritual connotations, whereas Coronal has more political. -Both Coronal and King are generally the same thing- a ruler over a specific community that has been "chosen" by some kind of (supposed) magical mandate, that continues through the generations. It is once you start going into the details do the differences between the two titles appear. But, that is why I said, "Generally speaking", the two are the same. Which they are.
GothicDan 05-15-07, 05:06 PM	That all depends on where you draw the line between 'specific details' and 'general details,' eh? Now who's not being a proper Sun Elf!
BrennonGoldeye 05-16-07, 02:46 PM	Thank the Gods, maybe I have been having a tad of influence on LK. Dan, you do know that the thought of Sun elves makes most Fey cry, right?:D
GothicDan 05-16-07, 02:48 PM	I've never been a big fan of the fey. ;) I like Modrons.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 02:54 PM	I like Modrons. -There's a big 'ol Modron on the cover of the new DRAGON magazine. The only reason why I got the magazine was because of that little retarded guy (and the timeline on Cormanthor, which wasn't really anything special). Reminds me of one of my dogs, now that I think about it...A Beagle who is was, in all likelihood, inbred, and suffers from seizures every now and then.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 02:55 PM	Not retarded! Awesome!
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 02:57 PM	-You can be retarded and awesome at the same time. Modrons, for example, can pull it off.
BrennonGoldeye 05-16-07, 03:30 PM	-You can be retarded and awesome at the same time. Modrons, for example, can pull it off. :bow: :rofl: :heehee :rofl: :bow:
GothicDan 05-16-07, 03:34 PM	Awesomely retarded?
Zsych 05-16-07, 03:41 PM	I tend to think of gods as reflections of their worshippers expectations. I think that to effect Lloth, you would need to effect the drow in general, and that if you don't get the drow behind you. Their combined worship, and rituals by the matron mothers and such, will restore Lloth to her previous form. .. Break the drow from Lloth, or change how they see her. .. Bring in drow from elsewhere that are in great numbers and that have a different view of Lloth(for the chance that Lloth will end up broken in two because of them) ... Cast some awesome magic, to change the beliefs of the drow :) (beginning a cycle of similar manipulations by other powerful mortals, both to change gods, or ascend themselves... leading to serious chaos :))
GothicDan 05-16-07, 03:42 PM	I actually like that idea, and it ties in with the 'apocrypha' that the Drow's descent reflected Lolth's Banishment.
Mikayla 05-16-07, 04:00 PM	Except ... what the apocrypha shows is that the drow follow Lolth - Lolth does not follow the drow. At one point in the new book the authors concede what I've been saying for a couple years now - drow society as portrayed would never "really" work and it works, in game, because of Lolth. So, really, as Lolth goes, so go the drow. The drow, however, do not have the same pull upon Lolth as she does upon them. If you want to "redeem" Lolth, I think you have to get her to change her mind. If you want to "redeem" the drow as a race . . . I think you have to do the same thing - get Lolth to change her mind. If she goes "good" or "neutral" then the faux-history tells us that the drow will follow her.
Zsych 05-16-07, 04:12 PM	I think no god is really independent of his/her worshippers. People worship and strengthen the god who gives powers to clerics and such, who in turn strengthen the faith... thus making it something of a symbiotic system. - Lloth is a part of the system that allows the Drow to exist as they are. They are part of what allows her to be herself. And gods have been known to break or change before(not that I recall the exact cases... I'll leave that to someone else)
Mikayla 05-16-07, 04:16 PM	That worshippers influence a god's power is part of the Realms' cosmology after the Time of Troubles - but - I see no evidence that the culture of the drow affects Lolth's personality. The novels and game materials make it pretty clear that Lolth's personality dictates "mainstream" drow culture, like the obsession with spiders, the treachery, etc..
GothicDan 05-16-07, 04:18 PM	Well, in previous editions at least, the beliefs of mortals also helped to shape deities, if you got ENOUGH cohesive faith together. :)
Tyberian 05-16-07, 04:57 PM	The only King we've ever seen referred to as such was Zaor. I think that's a rather telling fact. I think King/Queen have more spiritual connotations, whereas Coronal has more political. Unless I'm mistaken in the FRCS description of Amn it mentions the Elven king of an area and his feelings toward those from outside his tribes. What was exactly said I cannot recall, but I am sure he was referred to as a king.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 04:58 PM	I can't remember that, off the top of my head, and personally wasn't even aware of a sizable Elven kingdom in Amn... But, okay!
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 05:21 PM	-Elbereth was the Prince of the Elves of Shilmista...
GothicDan 05-16-07, 05:24 PM	Even more confusing... You know, a question posited to Ed concerning Elven nobility, royalty, titles, etc., would be really cool. I know from Cormanthyr that individual Houses that ruled smaller to moderate settlements each had their own titles (hence the Srinshee), but I'd like to know the differences been King, Queen, Coronal, Prince, etc., if any... LK, you go ask!
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 05:34 PM	LK, you go ask! -I've been barred from asking Ed questions, or something. Invariably, whenever I ask, my questions go ignored...:( -NDAs can't be blocking everything I ask. At least Ed would mention that NDAs are preventing him from answering. I'm just not well-liked there, I guess. :rolleyes: -Good ol' Elaine, and Schend answer all my questions, though! They're so nice...:)
GothicDan 05-16-07, 05:40 PM	.... I seriously doubt that, LK. Remember, Kuje himself had to wait for years to get some questions answered.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 05:58 PM	.... I seriously doubt that, LK. Remember, Kuje himself had to wait for years to get some questions answered. :: Shrugs :: -It's just that most of my questions seem to get "lost" in the thread, and never answered, that I have given up, for the most part. You ask, Dan.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 06:10 PM	You can't make me do nothin'.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 06:21 PM	-We'll see if I can make you do somethin', though. :)
GothicDan 05-16-07, 06:26 PM	Let's see it, then!
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 07:33 PM	-Dan, let's see you "heal" Lolth.
GothicDan 05-16-07, 07:34 PM	Done.
Lord Karsus 05-16-07, 08:03 PM	-Very good. I made you do somethin'. :)
BrennonGoldeye 05-16-07, 09:40 PM	Any doubt about the Ed thing has been crushed now. Argh.....
JRBlasingame 05-18-07, 04:08 PM	Essentially, you are trying to make good an evil that was evil before it changed its name. It is much like you have an evil red dragon going by the name Wrath, who, after another 350 years, takes a liking to the name Fury and assumes it as an alias. Does it make her a better - or good - red dragon if you want to change her back to Wrath? It remains as vile and evil as before. Im not sure if she was always evil. Gods can change just like mortals. She could have been good, and slowly over time (for any reason...her lack of true power in the Elven Pantheon, her resentment of other goddess that were getting near Corellon...whatever reason) she became jaded and decided to change things. That Solar guy is a perfect example...he was Corellan's right hand "angel" and Lolth (before here fall) corrupts him...same principle anyways. I think if is very plausible to believe that at one point in her "life" Lolth was "good"....and changed for reasons I'm not sure about.
Lord Karsus 05-18-07, 05:09 PM	Im not sure if she was always evil. Gods can change just like mortals. She could have been good, and slowly over time (for any reason...her lack of true power in the Elven Pantheon, her resentment of other goddess that were getting near Corellon...whatever reason) she became jaded and decided to change things. I think if is very plausible to believe that at one point in her "life" Lolth was "good"....and changed for reasons I'm not sure about. -Yes, this is the prevailing thought on the matter. Thus, Lolth cannot be healed, as there is nothing to heal.
Stigger 05-20-07, 11:18 AM	For all intents and purposes, I'm pretty sure for the context of this thread, heal and redeem are pretty interchangeable...
Zandilar 05-20-07, 08:13 PM	Heya, Oh, we had a conversation about the term "consort" on one of these drow threads, and given this one is about Corellon's ex-consort Araushnee, I thought I might post this here... Ed replied to my question about the word "consort" on Candlekeep (May 19 2007): In the Realms, we usually use "consort" in two ways: official consorts and unofficial consorts. Unofficial means a sexual or at least "constant companion, dwelling together" relationship that is publicly known about, but is NOT a formal union. Official means a formal union (marriage in faith or under civil law) of a noble, person of rank, or royalty that specifically does not imply that the "consort" can inherit the status of the person they are attached to (and in some cases, their heirs can't, either). To cite a relevant real-world example, the British crown has long had the concept of morganatic marriages (offspring cannot ascend to the throne), and the current Prince Philip is a prince in his own right (of the royal family of Greece), but cannot claim the throne should his wife (the Queen, who IS Queen in her own right) predecease him. So he is "Prince Consort," in the same way that Albert, Queen Victoria's husband, was styled Prince Consort rather than "king." Vaerana stands in the same relationship to Yanseldara: they are married (and, yes, lovers), but Yanseldara is the rightful ruler and Vaerana has no claim to her position, should Yanseldara perish. Zandilar, you are quite correct to say that the word 'consort' has "so many different meanings as to be almost useless except when the context is crystal clear." Sometimes in the past published Realmslore has been carelessly vague, sometimes editors have unintentionally introduced vagueness while rewriting for brevity, and sometimes we have been deliberately vague (for various reasons). I'll TRY not to be in future, but cannot promise (sorry), because I have no final control. Since I had some success, I'll try tossing in a question about the difference between King and Coronal. :)
Zireael 05-21-07, 07:20 AM	I agree with LK and I don't think Lloth could be reverted to Araushnee. Too much has changed.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 08:00 AM	Go go Zandilar! You for the win. :) I was obviously referring more to the 'unofficial' Consort he stated. That's how I always viewed Araushnee and Corellon. Angharradh and Corellon felt more the 'official' sorts to me.
Zandilar 05-21-07, 09:05 AM	Heya, I was obviously referring more to the 'unofficial' Consort he stated. That's how I always viewed Araushnee and Corellon. Angharradh and Corellon felt more the 'official' sorts to me. That's how I was thinking of it too, with regards to Araushnee... Though, Angharradh makes things very confusing. If she is his official consort and doesn't exist, how does that work? :confused: Angharradh, Angharradh, Angharradh... I love that name!
Zanan 05-21-07, 09:37 AM	Well, if it settles the issue: I asked the Dark Mother herself yesterday and she said that she never came under the impression that any of her deeds back then or now would or could be considered "good" under anyone's imagination.
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 09:55 AM	Though, Angharradh makes things very confusing. If she is his official consort and doesn't exist, how does that work? :confused: Angharradh, Angharradh, Angharradh... I love that name! -Bah, Angharradh doesn't exist!
Stigger 05-21-07, 11:05 AM	Yet they were both Corellon's Consorts... Ed's answer really solved very little really, since its not something we didn't already know, despite its being an official vagueness now, and did nothing to dispel any questions surrounding the meaning of the word Consort in relation to Corellon, Araushnee, and Angharradh/Sehanine... though I'm at a loss as to why the word would have different meanings, considering he and Araushnee actually had children together, and probably raised them together. That implies at least a somewhat committed relationship to me, with the Angharradh/Sehanine relationship seeming far more casual in nature.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 02:07 PM	... There's nothing in Ed's answer that implies having children together makes you official, Stigger! Quit trying to form solidity where there is none! *Beats with noodle.* They specifically call Angharradh the QUEEN OF ARVANDOR. How can you consider that LESS casual, when Corellon is the ruler of Arvandor?
The_Shaman 05-21-07, 02:43 PM	... There's nothing in Ed's answer that implies having children together makes you official, Stigger! Quit trying to form solidity where there is none! *Beats with noodle.* They specifically call Angharradh the QUEEN OF ARVANDOR. How can you consider that LESS casual, when Corellon is the ruler of Arvandor? I know! Angharradh is the official name of the, er, robes (for lack of a proper word in the human fashion jargon) that Aerdrie Faenya, Hanali Celanil, or Sehanine Moonbow don when they are seeing Corellon :D . That, or they have an "Angharradh mode" or something. It's not like we haven't seen more scary relationships in that family than a couple of goddesses with mild schizophrenia.
GothicDan 05-21-07, 02:55 PM	Hee... You're making fun of Elves, but it actually makes me giggle.
Mikayla 05-21-07, 03:10 PM	Zanan: Well, if it settles the issue: I asked the Dark Mother herself yesterday and she said that she never came under the impression that any of her deeds back then or now would or could be considered "good" under anyone's imagination. Odd - as an avatar of the Dark Mother I happen to know that everything I did was good, and lawful, and righteous. What is this "evil" of which you speak? Everything the drow have done and do and will do, to the children of Corellon was and is and will be, justified and proper and "good," The only real evil in the universe is in Corellon the Betrayer and the pale, weak-blooded, faux-elves that slavishly follow his every perverted whim. ;)
GothicDan 05-21-07, 03:54 PM	Also, Lolth. *Erects High Magic Shield!* Hee, erects...
MaskedOne 05-21-07, 07:18 PM	Zanan: Odd - as an avatar of the Dark Mother I happen to know that everything I did was good, and lawful, and righteous. What is this "evil" of which you speak? Everything the drow have done and do and will do, to the children of Corellon was and is and will be, justified and proper and "good," The only real evil in the universe is in Corellon the Betrayer and the pale, weak-blooded, faux-elves that slavishly follow his every perverted whim. ;) I tend to disagree for some odd reason. *Inspects GD's defenses, shrugs and mutters something rude about Elven constructs before disappearing*
Lord Karsus 05-21-07, 07:22 PM	Odd - as an avatar of the Dark Mother I happen to know that everything I did was good... -Strike One! ...and lawful... -Strike Two! ...and righteous. -Strike Three! Yer' out!
Mikayla 05-21-07, 07:29 PM	If by "out" you mean more powerful and popular than ever, as represented by the recent DotU book and the shrinking field of drow deities, then yes, you are correct. As for the goodness, lawfulness and righteousness - well - those are just points of view anyway*. *Except in D&D of course, where they are 'hardcoded' - but then, I am allowed to lie about the things I do and call them good, lawful and righteous because I am chaotic evil. So there! :P
Stigger 05-22-07, 09:27 AM	... There's nothing in Ed's answer that implies having children together makes you official, Stigger! Quit trying to form solidity where there is none! *Beats with noodle.* They specifically call Angharradh the QUEEN OF ARVANDOR. How can you consider that LESS casual, when Corellon is the ruler of Arvandor? So then having a child (or adopting one in certain cases) with someone you call consort and by all appearances raising them at least somewhat together means absolutely nothing then, implies no commitment whatsoever, and the relationship is casual at best... I can think of very few things more serious than taking responsibility for raising a child, regardless of whether you gave birth to it or not. And what does Ed's answer matter? It did nothing to address the issue beyond saying the usage of the word was vague and mostly undefined in most respects, which we already knew... As to whether its less casual, I say that because there's a considerable amount of debate as to whether she even exists or not. :tongue: Though to be honest I think its a stupid debate that should have been settled one way or another a long, long time ago...
JRBlasingame 05-22-07, 03:55 PM	-Yes, this is the prevailing thought on the matter. Thus, Lolth cannot be healed, as there is nothing to heal. Yeah, she can't be forcibly (sp) changed, and I don't ever see her willingly repenting what she did and trying to go "good".
Zandilar 05-23-07, 07:41 PM	Heya, Go go Zandilar! You for the win. :) Guess what? I was successful (well partially, given NDAs). Ed replies on the question of what the difference between a King/Queen and a Coronal is. (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8518&whichpage=35) The post by the Hooded One is just past halfway down the page... And because I'm feeling ultra generous today, I'll post the quote too... I’m afraid I can’t delve deeply into other elven noble and royal titles, thanks to NDAs (most of my lore on the subject was submitted to TSR, now WotC, years ago, and thus belongs to them; it can’t be published except by them). However, I can answer the narrower aspect of this question, to whit: in the Realms, the terms King, Queen, Prince and Princess all have elven linguistic roots, and are still used by elves of many communities. A few ancient elven titles were revived in Cormanthyr in reverence to the “lost glories” of elder elven realms. These include: • Coronal (literal meaning ‘wise elder’ but really meaning: chief justice, mayor, and later emperor) pronounced: “core-OH-nul”] [plural form: coronals] • Lusabrar (literal meaning ‘sword of the people’ but really meaning: war-leader; that is: A war-leader or commander rather than THE war-leader or commander-in-chief, because there would usually be multiple lusabren) [pronounced: “luhss-AB-rar”] [plural form: lusbaren] • Mraerital (literal meaning ‘vigilance of the people’ but really meaning envoy, herald, and observer; watching, witnessing [including formal agreements], and gathering intelligence openly, never stealthy spying) [pronounced: “mur-AIR-it-all”] [plural form: Mraeritar]
GothicDan 05-23-07, 09:23 PM	So, I was right! Coronal is not directly related to 'King.' Referring to Amlaruil as the Queen of Evermeet makes sense, because she's really the political ruler of the families that inhabit the island. Any further authority she has is as a Chosen of the Seldarine - religious, not directly political. So it really makes me wonder if there's truly something to be 'seen' in the titles Queen of Arvandor versus Coronal of Arvandor... Queen versus Emperor?
Lord Karsus 05-23-07, 11:36 PM	-Hate to go against Ed, but Coronal has already been given the meaning of "Great/Grand Speaker". -And, Dan, as I said before, Coronals and Kings are very similar! -Oddly enough, I just asked Elaine a little while ago about why Zaor was King of Evermeet, and not Coronal of Evermeet. Hopefully, she can shed a little more information on the subject.
GothicDan 05-23-07, 11:43 PM	LK, there are multiple definitions for the same word. You better add those to the Elven dictionary, since Ed's words are canon. ;) And Emperor is similar to King, but definitely not interchangable. You're a politics major, you should know that!
Lord Karsus 05-23-07, 11:47 PM	LK, there are multiple definitions for the same word. You better add those to the Elven dictionary, since Ed's words are canon. -Mmm, good point. That is true. I added the others, lemme add that now. -Also, give me a second to retrieve what I said before about Coronals and Kings... ...Here we go: "Both Coronal and King are generally the same thing- a ruler over a specific community that has been "chosen" by some kind of (supposed) magical mandate, that continues through the generations. It is once you start going into the details do the differences between the two titles appear. But, that is why I said, "Generally speaking", the two are the same. Which they are."
GothicDan 05-23-07, 11:49 PM	Why? We'll just disagree on semantics, again... EDIT: And I disagree with that. King and Emperor are very different. By your definition (two people who hold political sway over an area), King is 'very similar' to the Matriarch of a Noble House.
Lord Karsus 05-23-07, 11:54 PM	King and Emperor are very different. -No, they are not. Kings and Emperors are both rulers of a specific community, who usually claim divine right, and are (un)enlightened despots without term limits. The monarchies usually have a line of direct succession, whereas emperors have "trained" successors. King usually has some positive and/or benevolent connotations, while emperor usually has some negative and/or malevolent connotations. Like you said, this is a argument about semantics, and the level of detail you want to analyze things under. Well, we're not really arguing, but still...
GothicDan 05-23-07, 11:55 PM	Sorry. In physics, if you try to 'generalize' facts that much, you end up with disastrous results... You're lucky you're not a scientist.
Lord Karsus 05-23-07, 11:59 PM	-Life isn't a scientific equation (not in the literal sense, as it might as well be). Everyday you "generalize" things, in your mind, in what you do and in what you say. Not being able to do so would make you, effectivley, not very..."socialable"? "A valuable member of society"? Can't think of better terms for it.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 12:02 AM	I dunno. My fraternity chapter was made up almost exclusively of computer scientists, physicists, biologists, and bio-chemists. We're doin' just fine, kthnx! You liberal arties and soft sciences are the weirdos. Also, having a discussion SPECIFICALLY about the meaning of two words really doesn't mean you should generalize things, when you're trying to draw conclusive data from them. That's not how it works in etymology, either (another fun area of mine).
MaskedOne 05-24-07, 12:15 AM	"Annoying as hell," is the appropriate description but the validity of it depends on just how incapable one is of thinking in general terms and who the person deals with. Shrug, however I agree with one of Dan's points. If one is comparing and contrasting similar terms (note I do not say synonymous , Dan) then a degree of precision is appropriate.
Lord Karsus 05-24-07, 12:25 AM	You liberal arties and soft sciences are the weirdos. -Have I become a liberal? Damn it, I'm getting soft...:weep: -That's okay, and for the better, anyway. I don't like any of those Right-Wing Theocratic nuts, anyway.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 12:26 AM	Shrug, however I agree with one of Dan's points. If one is comparing and contrasting similar terms (note I do not say synonymous , Dan) then a degree of precision is appropriate. That was actually the only point I was making!
Stigger 05-24-07, 09:40 AM	Still, more than likely there is very little actual functional difference between the terms... different technical meaning, same practical meaning.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 02:25 PM	But we were discussing the difference in terms, technically, Stigger, in trying to find the differences in Araushnee vs. Lolth (in the long run, at least). Modern linguists, when they look at historical texts, often find revelations in technical word definitions. If you went through our history books and changed all references to King, to Emperor, things just wouldn't make sense, would they?
Stigger 05-24-07, 02:30 PM	No, of course not, but coronal/king/whatever has nothing to do with the word 'consort'... which is really the only term that concerns us as far as Araushnee/Lolth is concerned. As it relates to Corellon maybe, but if he was the one who cast her out, stripped her of divinity, and demoted her to demon, then effectively the term coronal and king make very little difference to his actual power within the Seldarine.
GothicDan 05-24-07, 02:34 PM	But it does in his relation to Angharradh (who is the QUEEN of Arvandor). We were trying to analyze their technical relationship vs. his and Araushnee's to try to ascertain a more accurate meaning for the word 'consort' (which is what this was all about). Go go Discrete!
Drew1369r 05-24-07, 02:57 PM	I have actually been in a campaign to heal LLoth.. won't go into to much detail but the number one thing we had to do first was track down all of Lloths artifacts and destroy them. Afterwards it was hunt down Arushnee's artifacts and use them in a ritual with a high priest of correllon (since none of our PC's were that) this is all while dodging Lloth's assassins, demons and the likes... we jumped to many planes and even a trip to greyhawk to do this... this was about a 6 month campaign every saturday to do (many many hours) She ended up being a demigod do to the power structure being lost when alot of Lloths clerics didn't convert :p oh well, that wasn't my problem ;)
MaskedOne 05-24-07, 06:33 PM	No, of course not, but coronal/king/whatever has nothing to do with the word 'consort'... which is really the only term that concerns us as far as Araushnee/Lolth is concerned. As it relates to Corellon maybe, but if he was the one who cast her out, stripped her of divinity, and demoted her to demon, then effectively the term coronal and king make very little difference to his actual power within the Seldarine. Provided that the Evermeet novel can be trusted, Lolth was judged a traitor by the pantheon. Any judge qualified to and in position to run a trial has the authority to sentence those convicted in their court (within certain guidelines, judges tend to have a range of options but they don't get to make up whatever sounds fun, there are rules). Judging Lolth to be Tanari and casting her into the Abyss would be within the rights of a judge with or without that judge being a king.
Zanan 05-25-07, 04:12 AM	Provided that the Evermeet novel can be trusted, Lolth was judged a traitor by the pantheon. Any judge qualified to and in position to run a trial has the authority to sentence those convicted in their court (within certain guidelines, judges tend to have a range of options but they don't get to make up whatever sounds fun, there are rules). Judging Lolth to be Tanari and casting her into the Abyss would be within the rights of a judge with or without that judge being a king. Obviously, that court is as likely to yield a decent result as any made entirely up of enemies of Araushnee. You see, it is much like trying to start a new faith in the Middle Ages in opposition to the Catholic Church back then, getting caught by the Inquisition and being judged before a jury of diehard Catholic inquisitors. There will be no second guess about the outcome of that trial, won't there?
Stigger 05-25-07, 11:25 AM	Most of those weren't even all that new, just new interpretations of biblical lore... warped as it was considering you couldn't actually own a bible without being a priest upon pain of death. More like being an avowed pagan trying to organize a new faith and getting called in front of inquisitors... not that they would actually kill you, that usually happened when they handed you over to the secular for punishment so as not to sully thier own hands. The problem however with his relationship with Angarradh is that we don't even know if she exists with any certainty, and we're also not really given much to go on with Araushnee. We have no idea what titles she did or didn't have, simply that she was the Consort of Corellon. She could very well have held that title of Queen for all we know... its far too open ended on her part for the Angarradh angle to be of much real help.
GothicDan 05-25-07, 11:46 AM	The problem however with his relationship with Angarradh is that we don't even know if she exists with any certainty, and we're also not really given much to go on with Araushnee. We have no idea what titles she did or didn't have, simply that she was the Consort of Corellon. She could very well have held that title of Queen for all we know... its far too open ended on her part for the Angarradh angle to be of much real help. Have you read Evermeet, Stigger? Angharradh makes an appearance there, in person, as does pre-fall Araushnee, and her thoughts... It may not be a perfect depiction, or perfectly accurate, but it's largely what we have to go on, and not even sourcebooks on deities are completely accurate.
Stigger 05-25-07, 11:49 AM	Nope, no interest in it either, not really all that interested in Elves to be honest. I could go for something about Luiren though... From what I understand of it though, its supposedly 'written' by Danilo Thann... pardon my incredulity of just how accurate it could be, and should be taken as. That qualifies it as A version of the story, not THE version of the story, and not entirely trustworthy in its details.
Lord Karsus 05-25-07, 12:09 PM	Have you read Evermeet, Stigger? Angharradh makes an appearance there, in person, as does pre-fall Araushnee, and her thoughts... It may not be a perfect depiction, or perfectly accurate, but it's largely what we have to go on, and not even sourcebooks on deities are completely accurate. From what I understand of it though, its supposedly 'written' by Danilo Thann... pardon my incredulity of just how accurate it could be, and should be taken as. That qualifies it as A version of the story, not THE version of the story, and not entirely trustworthy in its details. -Agreed 100%. Furthermore, Danillo is writing the tome for Arilyn, a Moon Elf. Moon Elves are the only ones who believe the Angharradh myth. -In Best of the Realm III: Elaine Cunningham, she says in a preface to a short story about Ka'Narlist that, as it is beling told by a Wemic, it might be simple legend, and often the lines between truth and legend blur. So, same idea applies with Danillo, whose research the book was made from.
GothicDan 05-25-07, 12:15 PM	Yet you believe Ka'Narlist to have been real, LK. Why not Angharradh? Also, she's statistically very real, both in 2E and 3E. Seriously, Stigger. What do you need for proof of a deity's existance? Her Clerics can grant miracles. In FR, that is what makes a divinity real, for ANY pantheon. I wholeheartedly understand why some ELVES may not believe in Angharradh being real, but that's like saying that there's a good chance Corellon might not exist just because a few Drow think he's a legend. This is FR, not Eberron! (Not that I'm knocking the latter.)
Stigger 05-25-07, 03:16 PM	I'd agree with that completely if the question of her existance in the lore wasn't there. Obviously there's something going on with her that makes the gold elves question her existance, so presumably theres at least a semi-decent reason to question her actualities. Its kinda hard to swallow the idea that the relatively pious gold elves would question her existance if there wasn't some solid reason to. Take a look at Ibrandul, Shar is granting spells in his name after she ganked him, but that doesn't make him any less dead, despite what his believers think. Being granted spells isn't necessarily a proof positive that a deity is actually there, something the gold elves probably understand given their view of her. Apparently, the Seldarine haven't seen fit to answer the question one way or another, otherwise the question wouldn't still exist after all this time.
Commodore 05-25-07, 05:49 PM	I'd agree with that completely if the question of her existance in the lore wasn't there. Obviously there's something going on with her that makes the gold elves question her existance, so presumably theres at least a semi-decent reason to question her actualities. Its kinda hard to swallow the idea that the relatively pious gold elves would question her existance if there wasn't some solid reason to. Take a look at Ibrandul, Shar is granting spells in his name after she ganked him, but that doesn't make him any less dead, despite what his believers think. Being granted spells isn't necessarily a proof positive that a deity is actually there, something the gold elves probably understand given their view of her. Apparently, the Seldarine haven't seen fit to answer the question one way or another, otherwise the question wouldn't still exist after all this time. Forgive my random intrusion. The post quoted was post number 12,500,000. Carry on.
Zandilar 05-25-07, 08:28 PM	Heya, Seriously, Stigger. What do you need for proof of a deity's existance? Her Clerics can grant miracles. In FR, that is what makes a divinity real, for ANY pantheon. I wholeheartedly understand why some ELVES may not believe in Angharradh being real, but that's like saying that there's a good chance Corellon might not exist just because a few Drow think he's a legend. Well, for what reason would an elf NOT believe in a deity who patently DOES EXIST? Are they really that delusional? Do they really need her to manifest herself before them and bop them on the nose before they'll believe? For her own survival, she would have to have worshippers who worship her and her alone. I don't think the majority of those supporting Angharradh are really Sehanine, Aerdrie, or Hanali priests/priestesses or lay worshippers - besides some of those don't believe in Angharradh either. I kind of like the idea of a triune goddess, but not one with this doubt hanging over her. It really is out of place in the Realms where there is a clear link between god and faithful.
GothicDan 05-25-07, 10:40 PM	Well, for what reason would an elf NOT believe in a deity who patently DOES EXIST? Are they really that delusional? Do they really need her to manifest herself before them and bop them on the nose before they'll believe? For her own survival, she would have to have worshippers who worship her and her alone. I don't think the majority of those supporting Angharradh are really Sehanine, Aerdrie, or Hanali priests/priestesses or lay worshippers - besides some of those don't believe in Angharradh either. I kind of like the idea of a triune goddess, but not one with this doubt hanging over her. It really is out of place in the Realms where there is a clear link between god and faithful. How many other triune deities have a clear link between the god and the faithful in the Realms? And that's the thing... Any deity of Angharradh could, in the eyes of the other mortals, be receiving spells/miracles from Aedrie, Sehanine, or Hanali. The fact that divinities EXIST is a known fact among Faerunian mortals. The faces those deities rare are not always known for sure - just as Lolth is posing as Moander. From an IC point of view, it would be impossible to believe that Moander does not exist. After all, his clerics are praying to him, and he's getting spells! But they'd be wrong. He doesn't exist.
GothicDan 05-25-07, 10:41 PM	I'd agree with that completely if the question of her existance in the lore wasn't there. Obviously there's something going on with her that makes the gold elves question her existance, so presumably theres at least a semi-decent reason to question her actualities. Its kinda hard to swallow the idea that the relatively pious gold elves would question her existance if there wasn't some solid reason to. Again, in lore, I completely agree with you. But she has write ups. She has an alignment. She manifested an Avatar in Evermeet (up for discussion, of course). She has a bloody DIVINE RANK. I am referring to OUT OF CHARACTER knowledge of her being real, NOT in character.
Lord Karsus 05-25-07, 10:56 PM	-You know, I am going to take a chance, and ask Ed a question. Maybe it will get answered, and maybe it won't. I'm going to ask him just why exactly do Sun Elves doubt the existence of Angharradh. I can't recall anything published that explains why exactly this is. She manifested an Avatar in Evermeet (up for discussion, of course). -Just as the Seldarine, as a whole, can have a Chosen, why can't the Seldarine, as a whole, manifest an avatar? Or, perhaps, specifically, Sehanine Moonbow, Aerdrie Faenya and Hanali Celanil (seperate, not in the Angharradh personality). I'm not specifically endorsing anything, but I'm just making conversation.
GothicDan 05-25-07, 11:00 PM	Just as the Seldarine, as a whole, can have a Chosen, why can't the Seldarine, as a whole, manifest an avatar? Or, perhaps, specifically, Sehanine Moonbow, Aerdrie Faenya and Hanali Celanil (seperate, not in the Angharradh personality). I'm not specifically endorsing anything, but I'm just making conversation. Because an Avatar would not have had the power to do what Angharradh did in Evermeet. If Corellon couldn't heal a wound, why do you think an Avatar - no matter who the Avatar was - could heal it?
MaskedOne 05-25-07, 11:06 PM	Obviously, that court is as likely to yield a decent result as any made entirely up of enemies of Araushnee. You see, it is much like trying to start a new faith in the Middle Ages in opposition to the Catholic Church back then, getting caught by the Inquisition and being judged before a jury of diehard Catholic inquisitors. There will be no second guess about the outcome of that trial, won't there? Shrug, I don't believe that I ever accused the trial of being fair. My opinions of how thoroughly Lolth has earned her fate have precious little bearing on the authority of a judge to sentence a criminal. Proof of misconduct on the part of the judge might affect said authority but that requires an effective appeals system which the Seldarine seem to lack. Of course, if Araunshee was not chaotic evil then there was always the option of requesting asylum on a plane more closely fitting her alignment and/or the chance that those fragments of the abyss which she conquered may have migrated if my understanding of planescape is accurate. On that note, GD what is the probable result if layers of the abyss are held long term by a being that is not Chaotic Evil, provided of course that said entity is neither corrupted nor killed?
GothicDan 05-25-07, 11:16 PM	On that note, GD what is the probable result if layers of the abyss are held long term by a being that is not Chaotic Evil, provided of course that said entity is neither corrupted nor killed? Abyssal layers are sentient. Said being would not be 'accepted' by the layer for very long. It would eventually kill, evict, consume, or corrupt him/her. I imagine unless someone was VASTLY VASTLY powerful (only the greatest of gods), no one of CE alignment could actually hold an Abyssal layer for an extended period of time. You're fighting the force (fractionally) of all Chaotic Evil in the universe. That's not something even one Greater God can take on for long.
Lord Karsus 05-25-07, 11:30 PM	Because an Avatar would not have had the power to do what Angharradh did in Evermeet. If Corellon couldn't heal a wound, why do you think an Avatar - no matter who the Avatar was - could heal it? -You know just as well as I that D&D does not profess omnipotence. Corellon is...DR 18? 19? 20? Okay, he doesn't actually have a 3e FR DR, but it'd probably be something along those lines. You don't think that an avatar formed by the sum of the remaining Seldarine, would be stronger than a single- albeit powerful- deity?
GothicDan 05-25-07, 11:44 PM	No. In previous editions, an Avatar was only the SPECK of power of a true deity. It was like an eyelash. A dozen eyelashes compared to a full body is still just a dozen eyelashes. Maybe if several deities merged their actual divine essences together (NOT their Avatars), they could do it... But, oh wait. That's Angharradh, isn't it? Oddly enough, I once thought up an Elven High Magic Ritual inspired by this, in which the Elven High Magi casting the Myriad Ritual gave their power to the Central Caster, who then channeled it into a single massive near-divine magical construct-form reminiscient of a blazing Corellon. It effectively allowed them to give up their lives to summon a true Avatar of Corellon. One name I was thinking was "Glorious Invocation of the Coronal" or "The Coronal's Form of the People."
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 12:13 AM	-Fhaor'Faen'Tel'Coronal: 'Form of the Coronal's Transformation'? -Faerfhaor'Tel'Coronal: 'Magical Transformation of the Coronal'? -I can't stop thinking of Voltron, now. Peruse through the Elven Dictionary, and I am sure you'll find more and/or better word combinations. That reminds me...I really need to update the ED. :(
GothicDan 05-26-07, 12:15 AM	DO IT! I will do that, if I ever get around to formally statting the ritual. I am so bad at statting... But both of those names could potentially fit! And shu'up with your Voltron.
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 12:28 AM	-I don't actually like Voltron. But, constantly repeating "Form of...Form of..." in my mind made me think of it. -Whenever Alaundo updates the Keep next, he'll have the most recent version of the ED. For the site I have the original version on, there's much updating to be had.
Zandilar 05-26-07, 02:15 AM	Heya, -I don't actually like Voltron. But, constantly repeating "Form of...Form of..." in my mind made me think of it. Makes me think of the Wonder Twins, actually. But yeah, Voltron or Captian Planet too. :P I had another thought about Angharradh... What if the Sun Elves are wrong? What if the real deity is Angharradh? What if the three goddesses who form her are just different aspects and aren't really seperate at all? That, to me, is actually the most logical "truth". (I'm just throwing that out there as a wacky idea. :))
GothicDan 05-26-07, 02:24 AM	What if the Sun Elves are wrong? What if the real deity is Angharradh? What if the three goddesses who form her are just different aspects and aren't really seperate at all? That, to me, is actually the most logical "truth". (I'm just throwing that out there as a wacky idea. ) I think they're both right. In some mythologies, this was true - both 1 and 3 were equally right, depending on who was depicting it.
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 03:34 PM	-Well, I left the question about the Triune goddess, and what and why most Elves other than Moon Elves don't believe in the myth, with The Hooded One. Hopefully, I get a reply...:(
GothicDan 05-26-07, 03:40 PM	We should have asked Zandilar to give it a go. *Ducks.*
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 04:10 PM	-If I don't get an answer within like two weeks, she definitley should. She has that special something that it takes to get your questions answered over there. -Elaine always answers my questions, though. She's so nice...:)
GothicDan 05-26-07, 04:13 PM	Maybe you just smell funny, LK? I'm sure Zandilar smells prettier.
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 04:28 PM	-I bet she does, being all feminine and all. -Though I'm not sure that any of that matters, since the chance of Ed, or THO having a smellographic computer are quite slim. Though, who knows, what, with crazy Canadian technology and all...
GothicDan 05-26-07, 04:46 PM	Are you saying she smells better than me!? Or that I'm somehow not masculine!? *GLARE!*
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 05:31 PM	-Um... -Yes on the first count. I would much rather sniff a woman than a man. Gee, that sounded...strange. -On that second point, apparently not. It looks as if Dan is all testosteroned up right now. That sounded strange, too.
GothicDan 05-26-07, 05:53 PM	Platonic <3.
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 08:12 PM	-We all love Dan. It's quite remarkable.
GothicDan 05-26-07, 08:43 PM	Except for Ubbergeek. Which is fine with me!
Zandilar 05-26-07, 08:44 PM	Heya, Hmm... ... :rofl:
Lord Karsus 05-26-07, 08:54 PM	-Yeah, things degenerate rather quickly, eh?
Prince Indirian 05-26-07, 09:46 PM	-Yeah, things degenerate rather quickly, eh? Very...lol
BrennonGoldeye 05-26-07, 10:24 PM	I can't believe it but I kind of wish Lolth would come eat Dan at this moment. Oh well. :)
GothicDan 05-26-07, 10:34 PM	Dude, I'm gay. There will be NO females eating me, divine or otherwise. :rolleyes:
BrennonGoldeye 05-26-07, 10:50 PM	Dude, I'm gay. There will be NO females eating me, divine or otherwise. :rolleyes: Dude, I was gay before you were sentient, and the kind of eating I was hoping for wouldn't require your consent.:P
MaskedOne 05-26-07, 11:23 PM	Dude, I was gay before you were sentient, and the kind of eating I was hoping for wouldn't require your consent.:P It would however require Dan willingly in her realm however or my permission. The former is for Dan to call, the latter is not forthcoming and option 3 would have distinctly unpleasant side effects if she tries.
GothicDan 05-26-07, 11:35 PM	Mmmmm... I like your style, Brennon... I give my consent for it to be nonconsensual.
Zanan 05-27-07, 05:39 AM	It seems I need to propose myself to the admins on here as WizO_Loviatar, whipping all those off-topic-babblers out of each thread. :evillaugh
BrennonGoldeye 05-27-07, 09:47 AM	It seems I need to propose myself to the admins on here as WizO_Loviatar, whipping all those off-topic-babblers out of each thread. :evillaugh Oh how naughty.:D I have but 2 words. Yes mistress.;)
Stigger 05-27-07, 12:31 PM	For once I had little to do with it...
GothicDan 05-27-07, 01:32 PM	It seems I need to propose myself to the admins on here as WizO_Loviatar, whipping all those off-topic-babblers out of each thread. But whips would just instigate what's off topic here. ;) I hope we get a reply from Ed soonish about the Queen vs. Consort thing.. Stupid NDA's!
Stigger 05-28-07, 12:00 PM	Depends on how those whips were used...
Zandilar 05-28-07, 07:53 PM	Heya, But whips would just instigate what's off topic here. ;) I hope we get a reply from Ed soonish about the Queen vs. Consort thing.. Stupid NDA's! When he mentions NDAs, they can be long term things. In this case I believe it's because he gave information to TSR/WotC, and they're currently sitting on it. It may never see the light of day. :(
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 09:03 PM	In this case I believe it's because he gave information to TSR/WotC, and they're currently sitting on it. It may never see the light of day. :( -Likely. WotC doesn't seem to have a soucebook "in the planning state" where this information might be relevant, and if they did, does this information seem like something WotC is likely to put in one of their sourcebooks?
GothicDan 05-28-07, 09:37 PM	Why can't more people be proper geeks, like us? :(
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 09:57 PM	-Because they just don't understand...
GothicDan 05-28-07, 09:58 PM	Hm. Next on my list of "People to detain" after "Religious people" are "Non-geeks."
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 10:13 PM	-What about religious people who are geeks? I fall into that category.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 10:18 PM	You can be a probationary member.
Lord Karsus 05-28-07, 10:21 PM	-I'd kill you, if need be. Let's just get that into the open. I'm the Cable to your Apocalypse.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 10:23 PM	Lawlz. You can't kill me. I'm way smarter than Apocalypse (as he was presented in the comics).
MaskedOne 05-28-07, 11:27 PM	Hmm, while not always into organized religion, I'm more than close to fit GD's would be detain list especially since I try and avoid direct association with social cliques based on less than amusing stereotypes. Find a new ambition, I don't have the patience to handle this one politely.
GothicDan 05-28-07, 11:42 PM	Where can a guy find good help these days? Geez, you people.. No dedication to greatness at all!
Stigger 05-29-07, 04:15 AM	Greatness doesn't have a absolute objective meaning really... its completely open to interpretation and is highly subjective, so those are pretty empty words there Dan... dedication is kinda open to that subjectivity and interpretation as well. Thin ice there...
GothWulf 05-29-07, 12:38 PM	Just to inject a bit of randomness....has anyone ever thought that all Lolth really needs is someone to just walk up to Her, slap Her across the face and yell "LET IT GO ALREADY, YOU ARE BEING A B****!!!" You never know...it just might work. Wulfe
GothicDan 05-29-07, 02:26 PM	Greatness doesn't have a absolute objective meaning really... its completely open to interpretation and is highly subjective, so those are pretty empty words there Dan... dedication is kinda open to that subjectivity and interpretation as well. Thin ice there... *Tosses water balloons!* Gothwulf: Give it a try!
Lord Karsus 05-29-07, 04:36 PM	Lawlz. You can't kill me. -Can I give it a try? I'm way smarter than Apocalypse (as he was presented in the comics). -I don't know about that. A long time ago, my cousin gave me his collection of Marvel Trading Cards, when he went off to college. The cards have brief biographies, intersting facts and vital statistics. I kept them, and every so often, I look at them. I just looked at Apocalypse's card, and his intelligence was maxed out.
Stigger 05-29-07, 07:39 PM	*is amused by Dan's devolution into child-like behaviour and irrelevancy* :tongue: ;)
BrennonGoldeye 05-29-07, 10:21 PM	*is amused by Dan's devolution into child-like behaviour and irrelevancy* :tongue: ;) Ah, now I understand. No wonder you smile so much.:D
Stigger 05-30-07, 03:15 AM	Gotta keep yourself amused somehow... :D
GothicDan 05-30-07, 05:33 PM	I hope to never lose my childlike wonder and innovation! I just looked at Apocalypse's card, and his intelligence was maxed out. But do you have MY trading card?
Stigger 05-30-07, 05:34 PM	Used to, but I traded it for some magic beans... one of the better deals I made really. :tongue:
GothicDan 05-30-07, 05:44 PM	Yes, it was. *Cackles.*
Lord Karsus 05-30-07, 11:49 PM	But do you have MY trading card? -There were only a few Dan cards printed, and they are extremely overpriced over at E-Bay. The most the Dan trading card can do is max out intelligence as well, but that's putting you on equal ground with Apocalypse, and not surpassing him.
GothicDan 05-31-07, 12:38 PM	My Int cannot properly be displayed on the card. So they had to go with what they could.
MaskedOne 05-31-07, 12:51 PM	Shrug, in the interests of bypassing most of your conflict. I think I'll drop the disguise and go back to the job of the Living Tribunal.
GothicDan 05-31-07, 12:55 PM	It's nice to have appropriate servants. ... Now I want to read more comics, but I can't find the second volume of the Age of Apocalypse, all of the new Warsong isn't out yet, and nor are the X-men Graphic Novels. I'm sad. :(
Lord Karsus 05-31-07, 02:34 PM	... Now I want to read more comics, but I can't find the second volume of the Age of Apocalypse... -I have the entire collection. The Age of Apocalypse was so cool. :P -All of the Civil War Graphic Novels have been recently released. Why not pick up Civil War: Uncanny X-Men? I enjoyed that one very much, especially since it (sort of) featured my favorite team, X-Force. -And, if you can wait a little bit, the "Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire" storyline of UXM will be compiled into a Graphic Novel. Plus, there's that new storyline debuting soon...There's some good things to come. :)
GothicDan 05-31-07, 09:32 PM	-I have the entire collection. The Age of Apocalypse was so cool. It was. But remember, I've only started reading comic books in the last year. :) -All of the Civil War Graphic Novels have been recently released. Why not pick up Civil War: Uncanny X-Men? I enjoyed that one very much, especially since it (sort of) featured my favorite team, X-Force. Good idea! I should be getting some money tomorrow. I'll be buying preppy clothes, protein drinks, and... Comic books. Oh, the clash of worlds. -And, if you can wait a little bit, the "Rise and Fall of the Shi'ar Empire" storyline of UXM will be compiled into a Graphic Novel. Plus, there's that new storyline debuting soon...There's some good things to come. Yeah, I only read the Graphic Novels, not the comic books, because the latter are too short for me and seem unfulfilling. But so far I'm caught up on UXM as far as the Graphic Novels have been printed, I think; they DO seem a little trite at times, though. And which new storyline? NOTE: In my former reply, I meant X-Man Graphic Novels.
Lord Karsus 05-31-07, 11:15 PM	It was. But remember, I've only started reading comic books in the last year. :) -Ah. I have about 1/2 of them in their original comic format, but I purchased the graphic novels for the sake of full completeness. Good idea! I should be getting some money tomorrow. I'll be buying preppy clothes, protein drinks, and... Comic books. Oh, the clash of worlds. -Oddly enough, I'm going to be buying some protein, muscle-making shakes in the near future too. :) Yeah, I only read the Graphic Novels, not the comic books, because the latter are too short for me and seem unfulfilling. -Most comics are too short, and leave you wanting, but that's how they get you to come back. I just buy 'em all 'cause I want to be on top of things, and can't wait. And which new storyline? -It's called "Endangered Species". Mr. Sinister and Dark Beast are seemingly the new protagonists. NOTE: In my former reply, I meant X-Man Graphic Novels. -Oh, oh. X-Man got no love. He has no graphic novels.
GothicDan 06-01-07, 01:32 PM	-Oddly enough, I'm going to be buying some protein, muscle-making shakes in the near future too. You're too small for those! -Oh, oh. X-Man got no love. He has no graphic novels. I believe Old Sage said they were going to print them, though.
Prince Indirian 06-01-07, 05:46 PM	LOL, GD and LK are bulking up. Oddle enough I am in that process as well (I am a little thin now, though big where it matters :P ). An advice "chock eat". That means to eat alot...at least 6 times a day...and LOTS of rest. Though, I thought sun elves were NOT body builder material.;)
GothicDan 06-01-07, 10:21 PM	I will be the first body builder Sun Elven Wizard. LK will be the second. (I am a little thin now, though big where it matters ). Pft.
Prince Indirian 06-01-07, 10:59 PM	I will be the first body builder Sun Elven Wizard. LK will be the second. LK did you hear that. Your second place...;) Pft. Oh, come one you knew I had to say it:P
Lord Karsus 06-02-07, 07:16 PM	I will be the first body builder Sun Elven Wizard. LK will be the second. LK did you hear that. Your second place...;) -I let Dan believe all sorts of silly things. That means to eat alot...at least 6 times a day...and LOTS of rest. -Ugh...I eat like twice a day, if I'm lucky. You're too small for those! -And? Short people can have large muscles, too. I believe Old Sage said they were going to print them, though. -Well, I hope he knows something that I don't, then.
GothicDan 06-02-07, 10:05 PM	Large muscles on small guys = unnatural looking.
Lord Karsus 06-02-07, 11:45 PM	-True, but muscles are still muscles, none the less.
MerrikCale 06-02-07, 11:55 PM	Oh, oh. X-Man got no love. He has no graphic novels. The X-Men have ruined in the last decade. They are a shell of their former glory. As a kid, I loved the Avengers and always wished they would be the pub the X-books did. Now they are the "franchise". Its great
Lord Karsus 06-03-07, 12:00 AM	-We were talking about X-Man, who, ironically, wasn't actually even part of the X-Men.
MerrikCale 06-03-07, 12:04 AM	-We were talking about X-Man, who, ironically, wasn't actually even part of the X-Men. My bad, I missed a vowel. Always disliked X-Man. You are a X-book fan though are you not?
Lord Karsus 06-03-07, 12:14 AM	-Yes, and no. Currently, I only follow Uncanny X-Men. I used to follow X-Men, but I stopped recently, when a new art and writing team took over. The storyline is now horrible, and the art is equally terrible. -In the past though, when I was a child (Mid-to-Late 90's), I followed most of the X-Titles. X-Force was my favorite.
MerrikCale 06-03-07, 12:20 AM	-Yes, and no. Currently, I only follow Uncanny X-Men. I used to follow X-Men, but I stopped recently, when a new art and writing team took over. The storyline is now horrible, and the art is equally terrible. -In the past though, when I was a child (Mid-to-Late 90's), I followed most of the X-Titles. X-Force was my favorite. I was a child of comics in the early 80s when Claremont was solid gold. By the early 90s, I had lost my appettite for the X books
Lord Karsus 06-03-07, 12:56 AM	-If I were that old, I'd probably feel the same way. ;)
PharaunMizzrym 06-03-07, 04:49 AM	The Ultimate comics are very well written and drawn. I've been keeping up with Ultimate Spiderman, and soon I will read the first Ultimate Fantastic Four (preparing myself for the new movie). I recently read a comic book called Marvel Zombies, that was awesome in a wrong way.:) I've been thinking of different psionic classes that together could have powers similar to those of The Pheonix. I think it would be possible. What is the name of the prestige class that focuses on telekinesis?
Zandilar 06-03-07, 04:59 AM	Heya, Lolth would heal a lot quicker if she read comics... err... All this talk of Marvel. *sigh* My comic pull list is already large enough as it is... :shifty:
MerrikCale 06-03-07, 08:00 AM	-If I were that old, I'd probably feel the same way. ;) Nice. I laughed so hard I have to change my depends now
Lord Karsus 06-03-07, 05:54 PM	Nice. I laughed so hard I have to change my depends now -Don't break a hip bending down to change them. I've been thinking of different psionic classes that together could have powers similar to those of The Pheonix. I think it would be possible. What is the name of the prestige class that focuses on telekinesis? -In a thread a while ago, I preposed that the Phoenix Force would bestow a full 10 levels in the Pyrokineticist (Sp?) PrC, plus some more Psionic Power Points.
PharaunMizzrym 06-04-07, 02:49 AM	I was thinking that too, and levels in that other class that focuses on telekinesis. Then there is the psion that uses constitution as its base score (forget its name). On a side note, spellfire would be similar to rogues ability (as it absorbs the energy from outside sources into itself). The thrallherd prestige class would be more of a Xavier thing though Jean eventually gains those abilities too. For alignment I would go with Chaotic Neutral. Ever notice how the Power Cosmic and The Pheonix Force aren't so different from The Weave? As for the quest to heal Lolth, why not have Mr. Fantastic put her in a coma? That is his solution to a lot of things. Mr. Fantastic, with all the time/universe/dimension hopping you do, you're the perfect person to destroy the Realms. It would be a mess even AO couldn't sort out (maybe he would even destroy AO. He destroyed Galactus once, why not?)
Lord Karsus 06-04-07, 10:30 AM	Ever notice how the Power Cosmic and The Pheonix Force aren't so different from The Weave? -Both are, like...physical embodiments of necessary universal forces. The Weave is kind of like that. The only exception is that the Weave isn't universal. It's contained to Realmspace.
GothicDan 06-04-07, 01:05 PM	I still don't like the idea of the phoenix having levels in pyrokineticist. Its powers seem more often like telekinesis with a fiery appearance. Like an Argent Savant taking Spell Thematics (Fire).
Stigger 06-04-07, 04:27 PM	Strangely I find myself agreeing with Dan on that one...
Lord Karsus 06-04-07, 04:29 PM	-Isn't the Pyrokineticist's fire "psionic fire"? Why would it be a Psionic PrC if it weren't "psionic fire"? I could go dig out my Psionic Handbook, if you like...
GothicDan 06-04-07, 04:42 PM	-Isn't the Pyrokineticist's fire "psionic fire"? Why would it be a Psionic PrC if it weren't "psionic fire"? I could go dig out my Psionic Handbook, if you like... I'm pretty sure it does Fire damage. I think the Phoenix's powers are in general more Telekinesis based.
Lord Karsus 06-04-07, 04:59 PM	-Why would the Psionic PrC not be Psionic-based? Now I really need to find that book and look that up. If you are right, Dan, that's just silly!
Stigger 06-04-07, 05:03 PM	Everything looked like it did fire damage when I glanced over it...
GothicDan 06-04-07, 05:07 PM	Karsus.... The energy subtype has nothing to do with its source. Arcane fire damage is the same as divine fire damage. Psionic is HOW you access the power, not what kind of power it is. At least, that's how it's been throughout the rest of the game...
Lord Karsus 06-04-07, 05:20 PM	Everything looked like it did fire damage when I glanced over it... -You're right, you're right...Stupid Psionic Handbook.
GothicDan 06-04-07, 05:26 PM	PYRO means fire, LK... What kind of damage did you expect it to do?
PharaunMizzrym 06-04-07, 05:37 PM	Depends on which pheonix. comic book pheonix does seem to at least have some control over fire (she can also devour the energy of suns, which is where her power over fire is derived). At the advanced levels telekinesis may lead to pyrokinesis, Xaviers awesome son being an example. Great kid who can see things from many perspectives (almost like hes a bunch of people rolled into one :D ). Legion rocks (the character, not the biblical demon). I do agree that the pheonix telekinesis is her most accesssed ability. Movie pheonix is more telekinesis based with powers similar to the psychokineticist or whatever the psion who destroys things and uses constitution as his main ability is called. Why not be Mr. Fantastic with intelligence 75 and wisdom 3?.:teach: :bump: :thinks: :help:
GothicDan 06-04-07, 05:39 PM	As you said, phoenix's fire-manip abilities are derived more from telekinesis. TK's versatility is what makes it so powerful. *Goes back to reading age of apocalypse.*
Lord Karsus 06-04-07, 06:01 PM	*Goes back to reading age of apocalypse.* -The Age of Apocalypse Phoenix had little explanation, but was cool nonetheless.
PharaunMizzrym 06-04-07, 11:12 PM	I must come clean with you guys, I am really an imp from the fifth dimension. I can destroy or rewrite reality with a thought. From now on 2+2= Oreo Cookies Double Stuff. Enjoy this new and improved reality.:cool:
Lord Karsus 06-04-07, 11:37 PM	-Cool. Can you turn this $50 bill into a $500 bill?
Stigger 06-05-07, 02:03 AM	You know, its questions and requests like that to lower planar denizens that probably got you into trouble in the first place LK...
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 08:26 AM	-That was actually KtM's aspect.
Stigger 06-05-07, 08:37 AM	Either way, not a terribly good policy...
Lord Karsus 06-05-07, 08:52 AM	-Eh, probably not...
BrennonGoldeye 06-06-07, 07:41 AM	Did get us the use of that condo in TwelveTrees though, ah, good times.:angelhide
Lord Karsus 06-06-07, 10:33 PM	Did get us the use of that condo in TwelveTrees though, ah, good times.:angelhide -Ah, I almost forgot about that time! :eek:
Stigger 06-07-07, 01:06 AM	Think I'd rather have one in Neverwinter or Silverymoon... hang out with the gnomes making the clocks or watching the High Lady frolic maybe...
PharaunMizzrym 06-07-07, 03:29 AM	Congratulations!!!!!!!!! You guys have managed to completely loose me with this conversation. I have no idea what you're talking about? Can anyone explain?
Zanan 06-07-07, 04:09 AM	Congratulations!!!!!!!!! You guys have managed to completely loose me with this conversation. I have no idea what you're talking about? Can anyone explain? Nope. They have been babbling on various off-topic issues for pages now :rolleyes:
Stigger 06-07-07, 06:39 AM	Yay us! :tongue:
GothicDan 06-07-07, 12:49 PM	And we've all been civil and having fun. :p Sometimes a little bit of OT banter makes it easier to be nice concerning actual topical discussions, so it's better for the boards overall.
GothWulf 06-07-07, 03:42 PM	And besides, more randomness simply boots my DvR...BHAHAHA!!! Ooops...I said the quiet thing loud again....:looloo:
Lord Karsus 06-07-07, 07:04 PM	Nope. They have been babbling on various off-topic issues for pages now :rolleyes: -Well, we did solve the..."problem". Congratulations!!!!!!!!! You guys have managed to completely loose me with this conversation. I have no idea what you're talking about? Can anyone explain? -Don't fight it. Just join in.
MerrikCale 06-07-07, 11:15 PM	Congratulations!!!!!!!!! You guys have managed to completely loose me with this conversation. I have no idea what you're talking about? Can anyone explain? Believe me. you don't want to know
PharaunMizzrym 06-08-07, 07:20 AM	Not fighting it, just trying to understand it.
GothWulf 06-08-07, 07:24 AM	Not fighting it, just trying to understand it. Don't...that way lies madness.....and candy...but mostly madness.
BrennonGoldeye 06-08-07, 10:04 AM	*offers PharaunMizzrym a lollypop.*:D
PharaunMizzrym 06-09-07, 01:32 AM	I fly out of the heart of madness and drag you and your lollypop down with me. You will now make me smores for all eternity! (Or until I get a stomach ache).
BlackHalfDragon 06-09-07, 01:28 PM	get other drow gods to help, after all they hate loth as much as any good god :D
BrennonGoldeye 06-09-07, 01:47 PM	Madness plus S'mores? :thumbsup: Hey everybody!!:ayyyy!: It's a Far Realm Campout!!! :elf: :pumpkin: :88E: :pumpkin: :elf: I'll bring the Pseudowieners!
Karsus the Mad 06-09-07, 02:28 PM	Well now....I was privately invited to a cookout.....in a PM....I come here...well....screw ya'll, you're not saying anything I even remotely give a rats butt about. Why was I invited in the first place? I've no clue. Blame BG. I will however dictate this aspect of topic: My burgers and dogs will not be charred! Oh yeah!;) Sorry, I've always been the loner that's hung out at the fringes of a bon fire, just out of clear sight, always remaining in smoke or obscuration....meh. I do have a nice wrist mounted flame thrower, if that helps...I can cook....
Zanan 06-09-07, 03:44 PM	Got the PM and I wonder whether I will ever get a probe of what Brennon smoked lately ... :incog:
XHereticX 06-09-07, 06:01 PM	Ok...I am invited to a cookout....wheres the cooking? and why is it indoors?
Old Sage 06-09-07, 08:23 PM	We're in the Far Realm? Okay, I'll bring the 'Harvey Dent' sausages I made next week. They're full of purple flowers and pterosaur egg yolks replicated in the Enterprise-D's 'Ten Forward,' so you're likely to enjoy them. I used blood from a red slaad that existed five thousand years ago as seasoning and I borrowed moon dust from Selūne during its closest orbit to Toril at the time of Netheril, for a suitable base.
XHereticX 06-09-07, 08:34 PM	I'll get the Hellfire wyrms!!!!:devil:
BrennonGoldeye 06-09-07, 09:02 PM	Well now....I was privately invited to a cookout.....in a PM....I come here...well....screw ya'll, you're not saying anything I even remotely give a rats butt about. Why was I invited in the first place? I've no clue. Blame BG. I will however dictate this aspect of topic: My burgers and dogs will not be charred! Oh yeah!;) Sorry, I've always been the loner that's hung out at the fringes of a bon fire, just out of clear sight, always remaining in smoke or obscuration....meh. I do have a nice wrist mounted flame thrower, if that helps...I can cook.... OK, KtM qualifies as the TechGuy who made the campfire everburning and temperature variable. Everybody arrange your grillables from left to right by temp. :mage: . Got the PM and I wonder whether I will ever get a probe of what Brennon smoked lately ... :incog: No doubt Zanan qualifies as the smoking hot heroine. *hands Zanan Skewers of Tastiness*. :D Ok...I am invited to a cookout....wheres the cooking? and why is it indoors? XHereticX, your the hero of this twisted tail. Ever seen Evil Dead 2? Add paragon-pseudonatural-tuaric-kraken-aboleths and just a tad of tapioca.:88E: We're in the Far Realm? Okay, I'll bring the 'Harvey Dent' sausages I made next week. They're full of purple flowers and pterosaur egg yolks replicated in the Enterprise-D's 'Ten Forward,' so you're likely to enjoy them. I used blood from a red slaad that existed five thousand years ago as seasoning and I borrowed moon dust from Selūne during its closest orbit to Toril at the time of Netheril, for a suitable base. Finally, someone who comes prepared. XHereticX, get that SPF3.6X1037th and rub down OldSage and all the cookery. Oh my. Cancel that. Just the cookery. :) I'll get the Hellfire wyrms!!!!:devil: XcellentX, now, who has the purple?
Old Sage 06-09-07, 09:05 PM	XHereticX, get that SPF3.6X1037th and rub down OldSage and all the cookery. Oh my. Cancel that. Just the cookery. :)Would anyone else prefer to apply the sunblock to my form?
XHereticX 06-09-07, 09:05 PM	Ahh, this is ironically familiar, like a long lost friend.
XHereticX 06-09-07, 09:07 PM	gaaa, why are the hands of Karsus frolicking around a campfire. We should be pursuing diabolical schemes right now!!!!(I still want to take over Krynn, :grumbles:
BrennonGoldeye 06-09-07, 09:24 PM	Would anyone else prefer to apply the sunblock to my form? :uh-huh: :blush: :tie: :bump:..:mbl::mbl::mbl::mbl:..We interrupt this thread in compliance with FCC rules. Please stay tuned for futher information... gaaa, why are the hands of Karsus frolicking around a campfire. We should be pursuing diabolical schemes right now!!!!(I still want to take over Krynn, :grumbles: I'm Fey, I have a propensity to frolic. Hmm, maybe I should be The Wrist of Karsus. Anyway. The guys are dancing an Epic Ward. *waves to trio of arriving Tulani ladies* Shadez is leading. It's his first. Im so proud.:weep: .
MaskedOne 06-09-07, 09:52 PM	Frowns at the ward dance and waves a hand, stabilizing a weak point. All right, other than stabilizing defensive protocols why am I dropping in here?
XHereticX 06-09-07, 09:54 PM	Being a devil priest, I am not amused by the dance. I wander into the forest alone to seek some sanity.
BrennonGoldeye 06-09-07, 11:04 PM	Frowns at the ward dance and waves a hand, stabilizing a weak point. All right, other than stabilizing defensive protocols why am I dropping in here? Beeecause.... I brought the Jhaamdathian sausage. The ones in the naga casings. You deserve a break today...:D Being a devil priest, I am not amused by the dance. I wander into the forest alone to seek some sanity. Fine fine. Here is the key to the VIF room. I think Tiamat2 is in there with a few Nabassu and the fondue pot. *waves goodbye to the quickly retreating 2 remaining Tulani after they dissed Zanan at the fire-pit*Please leave the room either gaudier or bloodier than you found it.:schemes:
PharaunMizzrym 06-10-07, 08:38 PM	Teleports to your campsite. Just come to update you guys on FR news. Labelas Enoreth let Lolth out of the demonweb pits to serve the rest of her sentence in her old place in Aravandor. Then Corellon Larethian brought her back into court and sent her down to the demonweb pits (again). There were a couple hundred daemonfey trying to snap pictures throughout the whole ordeal.
Lord Karsus 06-11-07, 12:03 AM	-Alright, Lord Karsus is here. The party can start now. :ayyyy!:
MarkusTay63 06-11-07, 12:20 AM	Got the PM and I wonder whether I will ever get a probe... <snip> Hmmmmm...... This Bar-B-Cue sounds interesting after all. :devil: I brought Drow Smores - we use spider eggs instead of marshmellows. ;) Are we at a beach? If so I'll whip out my Dinghy. :D
PharaunMizzrym 06-11-07, 01:24 AM	I'll have sun elf souls in my smores! Anyone want some, I slaughtered enough sun elves to go around for everyone.
GothicDan 06-11-07, 07:39 AM	Oh, the irony. The short story I wrote yesterday goes into detail in a conversation between a Sun Elf (Baelnorn) and a Drow. One of the points brought up is how similar the two subraces actually are at times, but what makes them still distinctly separate.
Alediran 06-11-07, 08:10 AM	Well, I'm here at last (no internet at home since friday).
Lord Karsus 06-11-07, 10:12 AM	Are we at a beach? If so I'll whip out my Dinghy. :D -I might have to arrest you if you do. Go whip out your dinghy somewhere else.
ShadezofDis 06-11-07, 03:22 PM	The guys are dancing an Epic Ward. *waves to trio of arriving Tulani ladies* Shadez is leading. It's his first. Im so proud.:weep: . :dancin: Here ya go Bren :tissue: That's for the tears :P :dancin:
ShadezofDis 06-11-07, 03:28 PM	Teleports to your campsite. Just come to update you guys on FR news. Labelas Enoreth let Lolth out of the demonweb pits to serve the rest of her sentence in her old place in Aravandor. Then Corellon Larethian brought her back into court and sent her down to the demonweb pits (again). There were a couple hundred daemonfey trying to snap pictures throughout the whole ordeal. Psh, Lolth's such a drama queen. :nonono:
ShadezofDis 06-11-07, 03:29 PM	Frowns at the ward dance and waves a hand, stabilizing a weak point. All right, other than stabilizing defensive protocols why am I dropping in here? I dunno, but I'm glad you did. First epic casting and all, I'll get better. :)
MarkusTay63 06-11-07, 03:36 PM	-I might have to arrest you if you do. Go whip out your dinghy somewhere else.But its such a LOVELY Dinghy... and it seats FOUR comfortably. :D How about Volleyball? I have an empty beholder I can fill with air.... :dancin:
Alediran 06-11-07, 04:15 PM	Where do I drop the dead drow who tried to make me sleep with his poison?
Lord Karsus 06-11-07, 05:37 PM	But its such a LOVELY Dinghy... and it seats FOUR comfortably. :D -Well, I will say this much: That is some dinghy. But, I'm standing firm in my decree- whip out your dinghy here, in the middle of this campfire, and I will disintegrate it.
XHereticX 06-11-07, 09:05 PM	Beeecause.... I brought the Jhaamdathian sausage. The ones in the naga casings. You deserve a break today...:D Fine fine. Here is the key to the VIF room. I think Tiamat2 is in there with a few Nabassu and the fondue pot. *waves goodbye to the quickly retreating 2 remaining Tulani after they dissed Zanan at the fire-pit*Please leave the room either gaudier or bloodier than you found it.:schemes: "Kills all the filthy demons and sends Tiamat2 to the demiplane of homosexual purple dinosaurs." ahh, that was fun;)
GothicDan 06-11-07, 09:08 PM	It is a Chosen Dinghy, immune to disintegration, most likely.
BrennonGoldeye 06-11-07, 09:35 PM	Oh, the irony. The short story I wrote yesterday goes into detail in a conversation between a Sun Elf (Baelnorn) and a Drow. One of the points brought up is how similar the two subraces actually are at times, but what makes them still distinctly separate. Don't worry, I spiked his graham crackers with estrogen. :D :dancin: Here ya go Bren :tissue: That's for the tears :P :dancin: I just love ya man! You are just the best little soldier! :weep::D :weep: I dunno, but I'm glad you did. First epic casting and all, I'll get better. :) Ah, and see, gracious when aided. :weep::D :weep: It is a Chosen Dinghy, immune to disintegration, most likely. The Epic Ward took care of that. We're all immune to disintegration! :dancin: :blush: :weep: :blush: :dancin: "Kills all the filthy demons and sends Tiamat2 to the demiplane of homosexual purple dinosaurs." ahh, that was fun;) *counterspells* Tsk tsk, be nice to Our guests. :D
Lord Karsus 06-11-07, 11:19 PM	It is a Chosen Dinghy, immune to disintegration, most likely. -Flesh to Stone, and Stone to Mud fixes that problem.
WizO_Shadow 06-11-07, 11:50 PM	...as does a *click*. Ahem, a little more discretion please gentlemen (and ladies as appropriate). Let's try to maintain a decent attempt at a topic more than banter? ~~Shadow ;)
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 12:48 AM	-Well, that's a first.
MarkusTay63 06-12-07, 12:54 AM	I guess she found out that I actually sold my Dinghy when my boat sank in LI sound seven years ago. I miss my boat. :weep: So what the hell was this thread about anyway? Was Lolth sick or something?
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 01:16 AM	I guess she found out that I actually sold my Dinghy when my boat sank in LI sound seven years ago. -Well, you need to make money somehow... Was Lolth sick or something? -The OP wanted to turn Lolth back into Araushnee, but mistakenly believed that Lolth was somehow "tainted", and could be healed, making her Araushnee again.
Alediran 06-12-07, 08:30 AM	He sure wasn't Tel'Quessir.
ShadezofDis 06-12-07, 10:36 AM	-The OP wanted to turn Lolth back into Araushnee, but mistakenly believed that Lolth was somehow "tainted", and could be healed, making her Araushnee again. As much as I HATE (hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate) god plots (insert long rant about short mans complex as it applies to geeks and gaming, yes I'm a geek :P) I think it would be interesting for someone to attempt this and in their ignorance "succeed", somehow enchanting Lolth, turning her from evil. Hmmm. . . it could all just be a superplot by Corellon, or, perhaps a less wise deity, to strip some of the taint from the Drow (taint = their evil gods). Hmmmm. . . There, see, we're back on topic Shadow and not a single mention of Markus' boat. :D . . . Does that mean the spell was a success? Because I'm sure it takes epic magic to get us back on topic. ;)
Lord Karsus 06-12-07, 10:46 AM	As much as I HATE (hate hate hate hate hate hate hate hate) god plots (insert long rant about short mans complex as it applies to geeks and gaming, yes I'm a geek :P) I think it would be interesting for someone to attempt this and in their ignorance "succeed", somehow enchanting Lolth, turning her from evil. -It certainly would change the dynamics of a lot of stuff, that's for sure. . . . Does that mean the spell was a success? Because I'm sure it takes epic magic to get us back on topic. ;) -No, it's just that we don't want to be yelled at again.
ShadezofDis 06-12-07, 10:52 AM	-It certainly would change the dynamics of a lot of stuff, that's for sure. Yep, I think it's really just has potential as a homebrew idea and it's not something I'm interested in actually pursuing but I do think it could be a nifty plot. :) -No, it's just that we don't want to be yelled at again. Well maybe that's just a property of the ward (ward against CoC violation) :P
XHereticX 06-12-07, 08:11 PM	Just to add my two cents to the convo, I don't know about healing araunshee back to normal, I think that she was corrupt all along. I like this story of Lolth's corruption: http://dicefreaks.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=673
BrennonGoldeye 06-12-07, 10:00 PM	Well maybe that's just a property of the ward (ward against CoC violation) Well, I tried. Evidently one of the hands forgot to repeat the "Ensconcae Inmodeii" phrase 4 times in the last stanza. :ahem:
ShadezofDis 06-13-07, 10:01 AM	Well, I tried. Evidently one of the hands forgot to repeat the "Ensconcae Inmodeii" phrase 4 times in the last stanza. :ahem: ::sigh:: That's the problem with epic spells, they get so durned complex. Well. . . at least the other properties seem to be functioning. :D Hmmm. . . these things get me thinking about how one would go about "charming" a god/goddess. I guess it would truly depend on how the Weave was modified due to the Karsus incident. :thinks:
Alediran 06-13-07, 11:07 AM	Hmmm. . . these things get me thinking about how one would go about "charming" a god/goddess. I guess it would truly depend on how the Weave was modified due to the Karsus incident. :thinks: At least with Eilistraee I can tell you how to charm her. It requires a good dance, a romantic song and a true desire to accept good drow. I spent three monts making new songs for her, and belive me, the rewards are more than worth :cool: :dancin:.
BrennonGoldeye 06-13-07, 02:20 PM	At least with Eilistraee I can tell you how to charm her. It requires a good dance, a romantic song and a true desire to accept good drow. I spent three monts making new songs for her, and belive me, the rewards are more than worth :cool: :dancin:. Quite a party Girl She is.:dancin::elf::dancin:
Stigger 06-13-07, 05:42 PM	Go away for just a few days and look at what you lot do... Though to be honest, I still think Lolth could be healed if she was indeed a member in good standing of the Seldarine at some point... though not without a whole bunch of effort.
Lord Karsus 06-13-07, 06:24 PM	-Lolth/Araushnee doesn't/didn't need to be healed. She needs/needed to be counciled.
MarkusTay63 06-13-07, 07:01 PM	So she needs a therapist? :uh-huh: I just picture her laying there telling her troubles to a 'loth with glasses who just keeps nodding and saying "Mmm-hmm". :D Then she eats the 'loth when she's done. ;) If you were to find an artifact-version of a helmet of alignment change and rammed it over her head, it might prove to be amusing... for awhile. I think her 'true nature' would eventually win out and the artifact would burn-out in the process. Just don't be around when it does.... :eek: That's the problem with epic spells, they get so durned complex.Good point... I think at some point some High Mage always yawns and WHAM! Instant 'Dark Disaster"
XHereticX 06-13-07, 07:24 PM	For gods sake, someone just call pest control and spray the spider already:P
BrennonGoldeye 06-13-07, 09:22 PM	-Lolth/Araushnee doesn't/didn't need to be healed. She needs/needed to be counciled. I'll council Her. :plotting: For gods sake, someone just call pest control and spray the spider already:P For a the sake of all that is holy don't say "spider". Argh, now I said it. :hides:
XHereticX 06-13-07, 09:33 PM	Bah, what do you have to fear from Lolth anyway?
BrennonGoldeye 06-13-07, 09:45 PM	Bah, what do you have to fear from Lolth anyway? Overwhelming superiority in DR. :D :mymy: :hides:
XHereticX 06-13-07, 09:51 PM	Overwhelming superiority in DR. :D :mymy: :hides: Use the force:) (no, just use force energy, it will do dmg no matter what)
Stigger 06-14-07, 02:29 AM	I don't buy into therapy... particularly with someone with an Int score like hers. Though watching the session could be amusing during the fun little tests they give you at first... kinda miss those from my youth. Nothing quite like making your shrink cry on the second session... :D Though I do think that getting her to 'repent her misdeeds' is about the same thing as healing. Was thinking along the lines of the BOED and its stuff on redemption.
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 05:53 PM	I don't buy into therapy... particularly with someone with an Int score like hers. -Intelligent people can be positivley influenced by therapy also... I'll council Her. :plotting: -Excellent...
ShadezofDis 06-14-07, 06:17 PM	If you were to find an artifact-version of a helmet of alignment change and rammed it over her head, it might prove to be amusing... for awhile. I think her 'true nature' would eventually win out and the artifact would burn-out in the process. Yeah, but if you can snatch away a few portfolios with a spell against the Goddess of Magic then it stands to reason that you can charm almost any other god/goddess. :) Which is why I say it depends on the nature of the Ban. And if anyone wonders what you're up to for the few decades it takes to research, gather material components, etc to prepare the spell. ;) I think at some point some High Mage always yawns and WHAM! Instant 'Dark Disaster" And there's that problem too. I like dogs. I like cats. I like dragons. That's all I have to say on that subject. :P
XHereticX 06-14-07, 06:19 PM	I am telling you, her true alignment has always been CE and she is an obryith lord that has hid her identity for eons!!!!!!!!! And Brennon doing psycology...shudders...:ghosted:
ShadezofDis 06-14-07, 06:20 PM	I am telling you, her true alignment has always been CE and she is an obryith lord that has hid her identity for eons!!!!!!!!! :yuck:
Stigger 06-14-07, 06:21 PM	Sure they can be influenced positively, but they have to recognize that there's a problem in the first place... and be willing to accept help with it... that's true of anyone, regardless of their intelligence level. Personally I'm in favor of an epic version of that exalted diamond trap spell whose name just flew out of my ears...
ShadezofDis 06-14-07, 06:26 PM	Sure they can be influenced positively, but they have to recognize that there's a problem in the first place... and be willing to accept help with it... that's true of anyone, regardless of their intelligence level. Personally I'm in favor of an epic version of that exalted diamond trap spell whose name just flew out of my ears... Well, Graz'zt held on to Waukeen for a little while, maybe we could hand Lolth over to him.
Stigger 06-14-07, 06:28 PM	Feh, Graz'zt are crap, always was, always is, always will be... and she wasn't really a full blown godess at the time anyway. :tongue:
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 06:41 PM	-Eh. Apparently sociopaths are enabled by therapy, anyway.
XHereticX 06-14-07, 06:50 PM	Feh, Graz'zt are crap, always was, always is, always will be... and she wasn't really a full blown godess at the time anyway. :tongue: True, so true. I am telling you, someone call the exterminator.
ShadezofDis 06-14-07, 08:28 PM	Feh, Graz'zt are crap, always was, always is, always will be... and she wasn't really a full blown godess at the time anyway. :tongue: Shush. He could be cool. He just needs to learn a little from his mistakes. And take into account that he will probably live for millenium. Then he'd be cool.
TheCrescentSpider 06-14-07, 08:57 PM	I think here's what happened..... In arvandor, Araushnee got fed up w/ Corellon, her consort, and brought a bunch of evil spirits into Arvandor, including the fallen Solar turned Devil, Malkizid. The Crown Wars started, in which the Illythir were banished to the Underdark for betraying Corellon. Araushnee was cast out, turned into a giant Spider demon known as Lloth, and thrown into the Abyss. Lloth then began to drag in worlds into the Demonweb, meanwhile fighting w/Zuggtmoy, queen of Fungi for control of the Underdark. After bring ing enough worlds, she was reinstated as a deity. Her daughter Eilistrae sided with her father, but self exiled herself, while Vhaeraun sided with his mother. Later, Lloth helped a drow necromancer ascend, and gave her power, but didn't let her use it. Her name was Kiarlansee and rebelled by killing Orcus. Shortly after, Lloth went silent, Maeymidra, and Ched Nasad fell, and the Underdark was plunged into chaos. The drow sent the party, who watched Lloth's rebirth(Detailed in War of the Spider Queen) Danifae was reborn as Lloth, while Halisstra became her Lady Penitent.
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 10:50 PM	I think here's what happened..... In arvandor, Araushnee got fed up w/ Corellon, her consort, and brought a bunch of evil spirits into Arvandor, including the fallen Solar turned Devil, Malkizid. The Crown Wars started, in which the Illythir were banished to the Underdark for betraying Corellon. Araushnee was cast out, turned into a giant Spider demon known as Lloth, and thrown into the Abyss. Lloth then began to drag in worlds into the Demonweb, meanwhile fighting w/Zuggtmoy, queen of Fungi for control of the Underdark. After bring ing enough worlds, she was reinstated as a deity. Her daughter Eilistrae sided with her father, but self exiled herself, while Vhaeraun sided with his mother. Later, Lloth helped a drow necromancer ascend, and gave her power, but didn't let her use it. Her name was Kiarlansee and rebelled by killing Orcus. Shortly after, Lloth went silent, Maeymidra, and Ched Nasad fell, and the Underdark was plunged into chaos. The drow sent the party, who watched Lloth's rebirth(Detailed in War of the Spider Queen) Danifae was reborn as Lloth, while Halisstra became her Lady Penitent. -Crescent, you really need to read Evermeet: Island of the Elves, and A Grand History of the Realms. Most of your facts are correct, or close enough to correct, but your chronology is way out of line.
XHereticX 06-14-07, 10:53 PM	I have heard so many good things about that Evermeet novel, too bad I can't find it anywhere around here.:(
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 10:54 PM	-That's why Al Gore invented the internet! ;)
XHereticX 06-14-07, 10:55 PM	-That's why Al Gore invented the internet! ;) yes yes, I know, amazon. I never buy books though, I just sit in the bookstore or library and read them
MerrikCale 06-14-07, 11:27 PM	-That's why Al Gore invented the internet! ;) well, that and porn
Lord Karsus 06-14-07, 11:30 PM	-Either, or.
BrennonGoldeye 06-15-07, 09:12 PM	:m:astral door opens:m: Tum? :dancin::schemes::dancin: :bored: Oh..sorry..could have sworn..anyway..LK..this um, "reeducation" might take a bit. :looloo: :m:astral door slams:m: *No, you can't have Cadrio as a snack, get back on the couch and put the mandibles away. Maybe after we get over this weaving obsession we can move on to recreation....LK has a bunch of pretty trees near his abode, maybe we will let you catch a golfer or 2.*