The Shadow Weave, the Time of Troubles, and the outer planes. [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Shadow Weave, the Time of Troubles, and the outer planes. [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Ramble
09-15-07, 02:23 AM Hey all,

Can anyone help confirm some of the following so I know exactly what I comprehended.

1. The Shadow Weave is not affected by areas of the weave damaged to cause Wild Magic or Dead Magic Zones.
2. The Time of Troubles was not just some period of Wild Magic, it was the Weave 'uncontrolled' because of the absence of Mystra, and so the Shadow Weave should also have been uncontrolled for the absence of Shar.
3. The Weave reaches into the planes, but most often inhabitants use the magic of the plane for their magic. Despite the fact that the FR plane of Shadow borders only an ethereal and prime material, an alternate primes, the Shadow Weave reaches everywhere the Weave does, and so can still be accessed in the outer planes.
4. Shadow Magic does not get its normal bonuses against magical monsters when focused on psionic-based monsters.

Ramble.
Shemeska the Marauder
09-15-07, 12:47 PM 3. The Weave reaches into the planes, but most often inhabitants use the magic of the plane for their magic. Despite the fact that the FR plane of Shadow borders only an ethereal and prime material, an alternate primes, the Shadow Weave reaches everywhere the Weave does, and so can still be accessed in the outer planes.

False.

The Weave only exists on Toril (and possibly the other bodies orbiting around Toril's star), and within Mystra's divine domain of Dweomerheart.

The Shadow Weave likewise only exists on Toril (and the other bodies on the prime material oribiting Toril's star) and potentially in Shar's divine domain (on the Gray Waste or otherwise depending on what cosmology you prefer).

All other planes don't require the presence of the Weave or Shadow Weave. The Abyss has its own magic inherent to itself, as does Carceri, Acheron, Elysium, the Outlands, or whatever other outer, transitive, or inner plane up for discussion. Each of them may alter magic in whatever subtle or overt way, depending on its character (with the non-existance/perfect nullification of magic around the base of the Infinite Spire being the most overt).

How you would handle Shadow Weave user magic on other planes, when seperated from access to the Shadow Weave has never been addressed to my knowledge. For simplicity's sake, I treat its mechanical aspects the same, despite the Shadow Weave's absence (ie. the bonuses and drawbacks to Shadow weave use still apply).
Zarreth_Nessad
09-15-07, 03:26 PM Hey all,

Can anyone help confirm some of the following so I know exactly what I comprehended.

1. The Shadow Weave is not affected by areas of the weave damaged to cause Wild Magic or Dead Magic Zones.
2. The Time of Troubles was not just some period of Wild Magic, it was the Weave 'uncontrolled' because of the absence of Mystra, and so the Shadow Weave should also have been uncontrolled for the absence of Shar.
3. The Weave reaches into the planes, but most often inhabitants use the magic of the plane for their magic. Despite the fact that the FR plane of Shadow borders only an ethereal and prime material, an alternate primes, the Shadow Weave reaches everywhere the Weave does, and so can still be accessed in the outer planes.
4. Shadow Magic does not get its normal bonuses against magical monsters when focused on psionic-based monsters.

Ramble.

1. Can be argued either way, but I personally run that this is true.
2. True.
3. False, as Shemeska pointed out.
4. Not quite sure what you mean by this. In FR it is specified (via the PGtF) that magic and psionics are fully transparent, so anything that effects magic would carry over to psionics. Which particular bonuses are you referring to?

How you would handle Shadow Weave user magic on other planes, when seperated from access to the Shadow Weave has never been addressed to my knowledge. For simplicity's sake, I treat its mechanical aspects the same, despite the Shadow Weave's absence.

Personally, I run that all the benefits and drawbacks still apply (you have a "better" or "worse" affinity for certain types of magic, whether you have access to the shadow weave or not). Then, in addition, there are the effects of the magic of the plane. This way I find simpler due to the fact that the character is still run like normal, and doesn't have to refigure out how he would use "normal weave magic" so to speak. This only applies to benefits and drawbacks from the "Shadow Weave Magic" feat. The other three Shadow Weave feats would not apply when away from Toril (Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, & Tenacious Magic) due to the fact that they are now using the same magic source as any other magic user on that plane.

As a side note, I also run that the Weave & Shadow Weave also exist in the Ethereal & Shadow planes, since they are coexistent with the Material plane, but that's only a house ruling, as far as I know.
Shemeska the Marauder
09-15-07, 03:29 PM Personally, I run that all the benefits and drawbacks still apply (you have a "better" or "worse" affinity for certain types of magic, whether you have access to the shadow weave or not).

To clarify what I said above, that's how I handle it as well. :)
Alleran
09-15-07, 11:15 PM False.

The Weave only exists on Toril (and possibly the other bodies orbiting around Toril's star), and within Mystra's divine domain of Dweomerheart.
Just to make a note, in the fourth book of the Avatar series, Cyric is noted as being unable to use magic in Pandemonium because Mystra wasn't allowing him to touch the Weave, IIRC. It was when he was trying to free Kezef. Not only that, after he'd been barred from the Weave, he was also unable to use magic even in his own domain (the City of the Dead).
GothicDan
09-15-07, 11:32 PM Yeah, well, no one knows what's up with that. It's a confirmed back that the Weave does not extend outside of Realmspace (the Crystal Sphere).

Novelists are notorious for smoking their smoke weed.
Shemeska the Marauder
09-15-07, 11:34 PM Just to make a note, in the fourth book of the Avatar series, Cyric is noted as being unable to use magic in Pandemonium because Mystra wasn't allowing him to touch the Weave, IIRC. It was when he was trying to free Kezef. Not only that, after he'd been barred from the Weave, he was also unable to use magic even in his own domain (the City of the Dead).

Artistic license that while it makes for the plot of those books, it's at odds with everything else on the topic. That's not how magic works on the planes, going on the planar perspective on it, and everything at least in 3e FR material has clarified that Mystra has no power to deny anyone magic where there is no Weave.
GothicDan
09-16-07, 12:17 AM I think Ed's touched on the topic as well, though I might be just confusing that with his statements about spellcasters on other Planes where the Weave is not (though that obviously infers that it is NOT there).
MarkusTay63
09-16-07, 01:29 AM I never read Ed's thoughts on that subject, but I had always assumed that someone from Toril still accessed the Weave to do their thing when elsewhere. Even though it's not presnt on the plane in question, a Torillian's connection to it is never severed (hence El being able to cast spells on a magic-dead world like ours).

So both Weave and Shadoweave casters would 'reach through the nether' to empower their spells (at least thats how I perceived it).

So if the Weave collapses, then a Realms native would still become un-powered even if hiding in another plane. But thats just my take on things...

However, it is canon that Mages from other worlds DO NOT use the Weave. Does anyone know if that still applies while visiting Toril? Because if it does, then the circle of Eight should visit Faerūn during the ToT 2.0 and help teach their 'brothers' how to cast without it (I know Elminster and Mordekainen are friends).

Maybe its because of all this confusion that they are just ditching the whole 'Weave' concept and simplifing things? Think about it - an arcane Helm created in Realmspace would need the weave, and then wouldn't be able to fly outside it? One created on Krynn wouldn't work in Realmspace?

It just gets too confusing, so I'm glad to see Mystra 3.0 have her Weave ripped out. :P
GothicDan
09-16-07, 01:36 AM Blasphemer.

Mind you, I'm not a Mystra fanatic. I liked Azuth more. But that's no reason to take out the pretty Weave. :(

In one of my most recent attempts at a home brewed world, I had a sort of 'Weave'-like soup of patterned oscillating particles that could have their probability towards achieving certain states changed when the correct frequency of various energies were applied.

... I'm not a physicist or anything.
MarkusTay63
09-16-07, 02:04 AM But you or I Dan would figure out exactly how such a construct reacted to stimuli from within and without, and know its limitations and powers.

The Weave in FR seems to extend or retract depending on which designer is writing the material. Also, we would take into account the multiverse, whereas FR has gone from multi-spheric to singular cosmology, which helps define the limits of the Weave somewhat but not the reasons why.
Gaelin
09-16-07, 02:51 AM Artistic license that while it makes for the plot of those books, it's at odds with everything else on the topic. That's not how magic works on the planes, going on the planar perspective on it, and everything at least in 3e FR material has clarified that Mystra has no power to deny anyone magic where there is no Weave.

2nd Edition Faiths and Powers discusses this, acutally. Mystra can deny any god or being access to the Weave. So, probably deities while they have access to the Realms do have to use the Weave, even on their home planes. Otherwise withdrawing use of the Weave would be generally useless as an injuction/punishment. To clarify: while gods are extraplanar beings, while they're aspected to the Realms, they probably use the Weave for their magic fix, just like everyone else.
Mirtek
09-16-07, 11:19 AM 2nd Edition Faiths and Powers discusses this, acutally. Mystra can deny any god or being access to the Weave. So, probably deities while they have access to the Realms do have to use the Weave, even on their home planes. Otherwise withdrawing use of the Weave would be generally useless as an injuction/punishment. To clarify: while gods are extraplanar beings, while they're aspected to the Realms, they probably use the Weave for their magic fix, just like everyone else.
Yet F&A was actually unclear about exactly how far this denial of the weave extended.

Magic of Faerun clarified it in 3e. Mystra can deny the weave to a fellow deity, but that only affects the deities aspects and avatars on Toril. It doesn't hinder the deity on the planes.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Ramble 09-15-07, 02:23 AM	Hey all, Can anyone help confirm some of the following so I know exactly what I comprehended. 1. The Shadow Weave is not affected by areas of the weave damaged to cause Wild Magic or Dead Magic Zones. 2. The Time of Troubles was not just some period of Wild Magic, it was the Weave 'uncontrolled' because of the absence of Mystra, and so the Shadow Weave should also have been uncontrolled for the absence of Shar. 3. The Weave reaches into the planes, but most often inhabitants use the magic of the plane for their magic. Despite the fact that the FR plane of Shadow borders only an ethereal and prime material, an alternate primes, the Shadow Weave reaches everywhere the Weave does, and so can still be accessed in the outer planes. 4. Shadow Magic does not get its normal bonuses against magical monsters when focused on psionic-based monsters. Ramble.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-15-07, 12:47 PM	3. The Weave reaches into the planes, but most often inhabitants use the magic of the plane for their magic. Despite the fact that the FR plane of Shadow borders only an ethereal and prime material, an alternate primes, the Shadow Weave reaches everywhere the Weave does, and so can still be accessed in the outer planes. False. The Weave only exists on Toril (and possibly the other bodies orbiting around Toril's star), and within Mystra's divine domain of Dweomerheart. The Shadow Weave likewise only exists on Toril (and the other bodies on the prime material oribiting Toril's star) and potentially in Shar's divine domain (on the Gray Waste or otherwise depending on what cosmology you prefer). All other planes don't require the presence of the Weave or Shadow Weave. The Abyss has its own magic inherent to itself, as does Carceri, Acheron, Elysium, the Outlands, or whatever other outer, transitive, or inner plane up for discussion. Each of them may alter magic in whatever subtle or overt way, depending on its character (with the non-existance/perfect nullification of magic around the base of the Infinite Spire being the most overt). How you would handle Shadow Weave user magic on other planes, when seperated from access to the Shadow Weave has never been addressed to my knowledge. For simplicity's sake, I treat its mechanical aspects the same, despite the Shadow Weave's absence (ie. the bonuses and drawbacks to Shadow weave use still apply).
Zarreth_Nessad 09-15-07, 03:26 PM	Hey all, Can anyone help confirm some of the following so I know exactly what I comprehended. 1. The Shadow Weave is not affected by areas of the weave damaged to cause Wild Magic or Dead Magic Zones. 2. The Time of Troubles was not just some period of Wild Magic, it was the Weave 'uncontrolled' because of the absence of Mystra, and so the Shadow Weave should also have been uncontrolled for the absence of Shar. 3. The Weave reaches into the planes, but most often inhabitants use the magic of the plane for their magic. Despite the fact that the FR plane of Shadow borders only an ethereal and prime material, an alternate primes, the Shadow Weave reaches everywhere the Weave does, and so can still be accessed in the outer planes. 4. Shadow Magic does not get its normal bonuses against magical monsters when focused on psionic-based monsters. Ramble. 1. Can be argued either way, but I personally run that this is true. 2. True. 3. False, as Shemeska pointed out. 4. Not quite sure what you mean by this. In FR it is specified (via the PGtF) that magic and psionics are fully transparent, so anything that effects magic would carry over to psionics. Which particular bonuses are you referring to? How you would handle Shadow Weave user magic on other planes, when seperated from access to the Shadow Weave has never been addressed to my knowledge. For simplicity's sake, I treat its mechanical aspects the same, despite the Shadow Weave's absence. Personally, I run that all the benefits and drawbacks still apply (you have a "better" or "worse" affinity for certain types of magic, whether you have access to the shadow weave or not). Then, in addition, there are the effects of the magic of the plane. This way I find simpler due to the fact that the character is still run like normal, and doesn't have to refigure out how he would use "normal weave magic" so to speak. This only applies to benefits and drawbacks from the "Shadow Weave Magic" feat. The other three Shadow Weave feats would not apply when away from Toril (Insidious Magic, Pernicious Magic, & Tenacious Magic) due to the fact that they are now using the same magic source as any other magic user on that plane. As a side note, I also run that the Weave & Shadow Weave also exist in the Ethereal & Shadow planes, since they are coexistent with the Material plane, but that's only a house ruling, as far as I know.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-15-07, 03:29 PM	Personally, I run that all the benefits and drawbacks still apply (you have a "better" or "worse" affinity for certain types of magic, whether you have access to the shadow weave or not). To clarify what I said above, that's how I handle it as well. :)
Alleran 09-15-07, 11:15 PM	False. The Weave only exists on Toril (and possibly the other bodies orbiting around Toril's star), and within Mystra's divine domain of Dweomerheart. Just to make a note, in the fourth book of the Avatar series, Cyric is noted as being unable to use magic in Pandemonium because Mystra wasn't allowing him to touch the Weave, IIRC. It was when he was trying to free Kezef. Not only that, after he'd been barred from the Weave, he was also unable to use magic even in his own domain (the City of the Dead).
GothicDan 09-15-07, 11:32 PM	Yeah, well, no one knows what's up with that. It's a confirmed back that the Weave does not extend outside of Realmspace (the Crystal Sphere). Novelists are notorious for smoking their smoke weed.
Shemeska the Marauder 09-15-07, 11:34 PM	Just to make a note, in the fourth book of the Avatar series, Cyric is noted as being unable to use magic in Pandemonium because Mystra wasn't allowing him to touch the Weave, IIRC. It was when he was trying to free Kezef. Not only that, after he'd been barred from the Weave, he was also unable to use magic even in his own domain (the City of the Dead). Artistic license that while it makes for the plot of those books, it's at odds with everything else on the topic. That's not how magic works on the planes, going on the planar perspective on it, and everything at least in 3e FR material has clarified that Mystra has no power to deny anyone magic where there is no Weave.
GothicDan 09-16-07, 12:17 AM	I think Ed's touched on the topic as well, though I might be just confusing that with his statements about spellcasters on other Planes where the Weave is not (though that obviously infers that it is NOT there).
MarkusTay63 09-16-07, 01:29 AM	I never read Ed's thoughts on that subject, but I had always assumed that someone from Toril still accessed the Weave to do their thing when elsewhere. Even though it's not presnt on the plane in question, a Torillian's connection to it is never severed (hence El being able to cast spells on a magic-dead world like ours). So both Weave and Shadoweave casters would 'reach through the nether' to empower their spells (at least thats how I perceived it). So if the Weave collapses, then a Realms native would still become un-powered even if hiding in another plane. But thats just my take on things... However, it is canon that Mages from other worlds DO NOT use the Weave. Does anyone know if that still applies while visiting Toril? Because if it does, then the circle of Eight should visit Faerūn during the ToT 2.0 and help teach their 'brothers' how to cast without it (I know Elminster and Mordekainen are friends). Maybe its because of all this confusion that they are just ditching the whole 'Weave' concept and simplifing things? Think about it - an arcane Helm created in Realmspace would need the weave, and then wouldn't be able to fly outside it? One created on Krynn wouldn't work in Realmspace? It just gets too confusing, so I'm glad to see Mystra 3.0 have her Weave ripped out. :P
GothicDan 09-16-07, 01:36 AM	Blasphemer. Mind you, I'm not a Mystra fanatic. I liked Azuth more. But that's no reason to take out the pretty Weave. :( In one of my most recent attempts at a home brewed world, I had a sort of 'Weave'-like soup of patterned oscillating particles that could have their probability towards achieving certain states changed when the correct frequency of various energies were applied. ... I'm not a physicist or anything.
MarkusTay63 09-16-07, 02:04 AM	But you or I Dan would figure out exactly how such a construct reacted to stimuli from within and without, and know its limitations and powers. The Weave in FR seems to extend or retract depending on which designer is writing the material. Also, we would take into account the multiverse, whereas FR has gone from multi-spheric to singular cosmology, which helps define the limits of the Weave somewhat but not the reasons why.
Gaelin 09-16-07, 02:51 AM	Artistic license that while it makes for the plot of those books, it's at odds with everything else on the topic. That's not how magic works on the planes, going on the planar perspective on it, and everything at least in 3e FR material has clarified that Mystra has no power to deny anyone magic where there is no Weave. 2nd Edition Faiths and Powers discusses this, acutally. Mystra can deny any god or being access to the Weave. So, probably deities while they have access to the Realms do have to use the Weave, even on their home planes. Otherwise withdrawing use of the Weave would be generally useless as an injuction/punishment. To clarify: while gods are extraplanar beings, while they're aspected to the Realms, they probably use the Weave for their magic fix, just like everyone else.
Mirtek 09-16-07, 11:19 AM	2nd Edition Faiths and Powers discusses this, acutally. Mystra can deny any god or being access to the Weave. So, probably deities while they have access to the Realms do have to use the Weave, even on their home planes. Otherwise withdrawing use of the Weave would be generally useless as an injuction/punishment. To clarify: while gods are extraplanar beings, while they're aspected to the Realms, they probably use the Weave for their magic fix, just like everyone else. Yet F&A was actually unclear about exactly how far this denial of the weave extended. Magic of Faerun clarified it in 3e. Mystra can deny the weave to a fellow deity, but that only affects the deities aspects and avatars on Toril. It doesn't hinder the deity on the planes.