Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Zsych 10-04-07, 11:38 PM	I hear that Mystra is being given some power over the SW according to new stuff from Ed or some new adventures/novels. Really? What happened now? The poor girl is going to be goddess of all magic before she croaks in 4E?
Lord Karsus 10-05-07, 12:53 PM	-No, no. Apparently, the new superadventure has stated in canon, overruling what Magic of Faerūn said, that if the Weave were to unravel, so too would the Shadow Weave. That's all. Mystra still has no influence over it, and Shar is still it's steward. Personally, I don't like that, without more of an origin of the SW, but what are ya gonna do?
GothicDan 10-05-07, 01:11 PM	And Rich recently said that even he wasn't sold on his own Shadow Weave idea, so we're likely to not see much of it. Which is funny, because I liked the writing of the book in which the Shadow Weave was introduced, even if it was a Birthrite book, in the first place. This means... No more Shadow Tamaters?! GASP!
Lord Karsus 10-05-07, 01:19 PM	This means... No more Shadow Tamaters?! GASP! -Damn...Is nothing sacred! -Now what is Cormyrian Farmer with Pitchfork #2 going to do?
GothicDan 10-05-07, 01:20 PM	Pitchfork some stuff?
Lord Karsus 10-05-07, 01:26 PM	-Hmm...I guess he's going to start crusading against Spellplague Tomatos now.
GothicDan 10-05-07, 01:29 PM	Dude. Our Anti-Shadow Weave Society/Shade society has accomplished half its goal. PRAISE CORELLON! (Labelas.)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-05-07, 01:55 PM	Rich Baker said the Shadow Weave was meant as a check on Mystra's power...even though she already had a check on her power (the Chosen).
Anskiere1331 10-05-07, 02:04 PM	Aw C'mon. No more shadow magic? I for one, love the shadowcaster class. I'm hoping that 4E will merge some the ideas from it to wizards and sorcerers. :emp:
GothicDan 10-05-07, 02:37 PM	Shadow Magic has always existed in the Realms. It has nothing to do with the Shadow Weave.
Lord Karsus 10-05-07, 04:59 PM	-It's crazy like that.
Zsych 10-05-07, 09:46 PM	They really need to turn out some consistent lore on this thing. Maybe it should be that if an agent can destroy the Weave (like anti-magic shell effecting both the Weave and the Shadow-weave), then it can also destroy the Shadow-Weave, because they are very similar. If the Weave de-activates because Mystra is down, then that shouldn't effect the Shadow-weave. Not that it really matters. The two weaves being interdependent is also an okay design decision... Would've liked large groups of wizards turning to the Shadow-weave and Shar though :) Maybe the unstable nature of magic during the spell-plague still won't effect the Shadow-weave which is usually immune to wild magic and such. Hmm... I kinda wish that Shar could have a deeper, more interesting and twisted motive than the destruction she apparently seeks.
Andyr 10-07-07, 08:58 AM	I think that the Shadow Weave will vanish in 4E, based on some text in Shadowstorm. One of the characters (I forget which) mentions visions of Shar's moment of weakness but ultimate triumph in coming years. I take this weakness to be the loss of the Shadow Weave, but the triumph being the death of Mystra and presumably some further gains. In other words, Shar isn't really concerned about the loss of the Shadow Weave--since she wants the destruction of everything, and she has destroyed Mystra too. I don't have a problem with the idea of Cyric and Shar murdering Mystra. They've both got motives, and if any deities can do it, they can. Cyric does have Mystra's true name, after all, and as it is a secret (shared between Mystra and Kelemvor, with Cyric overhearing) I can see Shar would be interested in knowing it too.
18DELTA 10-07-07, 04:01 PM	Shar is the Goddess of loss. If she kept the Shadow weave, the she would become more powerful. Then Cyric would kill her in time for 5E!:pbbbtt: :rolleye2: I really hope they know what they are doing!:rolleyes:
Muddman 10-07-07, 08:00 PM	Mystra has no power over the Shadow Weave, nor does Shar have any influence over the Weave, but the followers of Shar have discovered a way to supress the Weave, leaving only the Shadow Weave operable. So what Magic of Faerun says is still in effect, the Sharrans know they can't destroy the Weave (thus putting the area in a dead magic zone) or else they'd loose the Shadow Weave too. Thats why they have to go around it.
GothicDan 10-08-07, 06:55 AM	Shar and Mystra being compared as deities of magic on equal footing is a bit erroneous, I think. Namely, the Weave is so suffused throughout the majority of the Realms, physically, religiously, and culturally, that that belief alone would have in part maintained it, and Mystra's power over it. (Remember, she could have been an Overpower at one point.) Shar seems to have mostly constructed the Weave by building off of Mystra's creation. When she threw out her raw arcane energy that helped create her, in all likelihood she forfeited the ability to ever LEARN and RESEARCH magic and magical constructs as well as Mystra. Shar is darkness, loss, and entropy personified; she does not hold any sway over magic - be it Shadow Magic or the Shadow Weave itself - as a divine mandate. It's not one of her portfolios. But Mystra is indeed the deity of the Weave and MAGIC in the Faerunian pantheon, and she is the only one to hold this distinction. While there's no direct evidence to back this up, I would say that Mystra in her MAGIC portfolio would be able to at the very least quickly discern, research, and counter other methods of magic management when presented with them, and perhaps claim divine power as well if such things were prevalent in Faerunian lands (where Shar's followers are strongest). Shar was effectively a very clever and enchanting, imaginative spellcaster and artist, a rogue and manipulator, a decadent, nihilistic thief who watched Mystra's creation and mimicked it in some ways. But Mystra's simple command over MAGIC (not the Weave), and her innate knowledge of how the Weave works itself, would give her far more ability to affect it than Shar would the Weave. It's almost like a high level Bard whole managed to steal and modify some powerful artifact. It's very handy, and makes the Bard more potent, but what happens when an equal-leveled pure Wizard/Archmage/Incantatrix/Uber Mage stumbles along? The Bard can fight all he wants, but it won't stop a Mordenkainen's Disjunction or Wish, or Epic Magic, from tearing away his toy.
The_Shaman 10-08-07, 09:36 AM	I would agree fully, but for one minor detail: there is little on the actual working of the Shadow Weave. From what I can tell, however, Mystra should have been aware of it forming practically from day one. She is the goddess of magic, after all, and magic in all its forms or interactions. The creation of an entire mirror weave seems way too much. Even if Shar could obscure its creation itself, there should be more than enough symptoms of something interacting with the regular weave. OTOH, if it were created together with the Weave - in the battle of Selune and Shar, where Mystra herself was created - it should be under her purview. After all, Mystra is composed of Selune and Shar's essence and thus equally apt to steward magic from both light and shadow.
Lord Karsus 10-08-07, 10:56 AM	-This is one of my main gripes with the Shadow Weave, and deciding whether or not it should collapse with the Weave, and if Mystra should have any stewardship over it: We don't know it's origins. If we were ever told the Shadow Weave's definitive origins ("When such and such happened, Shar did XYZ..."), then I think we'd all be able to make much more informed and accurate decisions.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-08-07, 02:21 PM	I've given my opinions on the Shadow Weave (ie. "is it Mystra's or Shar's?") already, so I'm not going to repeat that now. I agree with GothicDan that Shar is not a goddess of magic in her own right, and certainly not one on equal footing with Mystra. I agree that Shar probably doesn't care if the Shadow Weave goes "poof" as long as it's served it's purpose for her (that's how she works), but if she doesn't really care about the Shadow Weave, then how would losing it be her moment of greatest weakness?
arcanist supreme 10-09-07, 02:34 PM	I would agree fully, but for one minor detail: there is little on the actual working of the Shadow Weave. From what I can tell, however, Mystra should have been aware of it forming practically from day one. She is the goddess of magic, after all, and magic in all its forms or interactions. The creation of an entire mirror weave seems way too much. Even if Shar could obscure its creation itself, there should be more than enough symptoms of something interacting with the regular weave. OTOH, if it were created together with the Weave - in the battle of Selune and Shar, where Mystra herself was created - it should be under her purview. After all, Mystra is composed of Selune and Shar's essence and thus equally apt to steward magic from both light and shadow. i totally agree that Mystra shld have realized it from Day 1! Impossible that she does not. Her portfolio sense should have detected something shld happen and besides Shar cannot block indefinitely according to Faiths and Pantheons. The block should be 1h per Divine Rank (max she can block is 18h unless you are telling me that the Realms has 18h/day). Shar's avatars are half her DvR and even if they have the Salient Divine Ability of Block Sensing, they aren't able to block Mystra at all. So, how could Mystra NOT know that something that major would befall the Realms? That Magic would somehow be so affected. My guess is that she KNEW and like her predecessor, she sacrificed herself to save the Weave (or improve) it. Let' hope she makes a comeback.
johnkretzer 10-09-07, 04:46 PM	I've given my opinions on the Shadow Weave (ie. "is it Mystra's or Shar's?") already, so I'm not going to repeat that now. I agree with GothicDan that Shar is not a goddess of magic in her own right, and certainly not one on equal footing with Mystra. I agree that Shar probably doesn't care if the Shadow Weave goes "poof" as long as it's served it's purpose for her (that's how she works), but if she doesn't really care about the Shadow Weave, then how would losing it be her moment of greatest weakness? Especialy since I believe that the Shadow Weave's purpose wasn't to steal the Weave from Mystra but to destroy it...and well she just found a faster way to do this. Also I doubt our questions abou the SW will ever be answeared. As Rich has said it was a mistake. One they have just got rid of. Unfortunaly it seems because of this and other mistake they have made they have decided to destroy the Realms.
Ramenth 10-10-07, 02:21 AM	I assume that since the Weave exploded, the Shadow Weave will implode.
Zsych 10-13-07, 02:22 PM	I think that with Shar being one of the goddesses who created the Realms(before Mystra and the Weave ever existed), she wouldn't exactly be suffering from a great lack of knowledge of the underlying physics of that world and of magic itself. Shar may not know as much about Weave born magic as Mystra, but she probably understands the underlying magic from which the Weave is formed much better, from having used it for so long.
The_Shaman 10-14-07, 11:26 AM	There we're going into demiurgic theory. I don't think she needs to know how to make the world; it could be a matter of simply giving things a nudge and then watching them unfold. Besides, I thought that (N.B.: for the most part), she was in the corner sulking while Chauntea, Selune and co did the actual creating OTOH, in terms of magic Mystra has the rare edge over other deities of magic in that she not only uses and stewards the Weave, but she practically is the Weave.
MaskedOne 10-15-07, 12:30 PM	I think that with Shar being one of the goddesses who created the Realms(before Mystra and the Weave ever existed), she wouldn't exactly be suffering from a great lack of knowledge of the underlying physics of that world and of magic itself. Shar may not know as much about Weave born magic as Mystra, but she probably understands the underlying magic from which the Weave is formed much better, from having used it for so long. You're making the the questionable assumption that Shar actually accessed raw magic in Realmspace. Provided she possessed the Alter Reality Divine Salient ability (and provided my memory is accurate), Shar not only did not need to access external power such as Raw Magic but was better served 90% percent of the time by not doing so. Shar's spellcasting abilities if I'm remembering correctly put her at about level 19 as a Sorcerer. While that's strong for a mortal, it's not so great for a divinity and anything she could accomplish through it would easily be handled through the use of Alter Reality along with a few tricks, (such as creating light) that her Shadow Weave affinity prevents her from accomplishing through normal spellcasting. As nothing else except possession of the Shadow Weave suggests any real affinity for magic, I have doubts that Shar ever used external power supernatural feats prior to the existence of the Weave and Shadow Weave within Realmspace. What spellcasting ability ability she does possess could have been gained simply enough after the creation of the Weave. If there's evidence that Shar actually used something other than her own personal divine power that would make a much more compelling case for her possessing an understanding of magic beyond the Weave but the ability to create supernatural effects pre-Mystril does not make that case as Divine Salient abilities are not precisely magic and Alter Reality can effectively mimic ANY spell of 9th level or lower as a standard action.
Zsych 10-17-07, 02:31 AM	I think being able to manifest the equivalent of 9th level spells wouldn't go far on the way to creating a reality with a whole bunch of worlds in it(not that I would think of Alter Reality is existing in a vacuum.. I would expect it to be dependent on some type of underlying laws/magic) Also... where normal gods can't survive being forgotten, Shar and Selune both predate the existence of worshippers, so at least I would think of them as being somewhat different from regular gods. The Shar we know is a broken down wreck of what she originally was, with both her and Selune having been in a war that actually created a whole bunch of gods.... a war that led to the creation of Mystryl from parts of Selune and Shar and didn't stop there...
Lord Karsus 10-17-07, 10:42 AM	Also... where normal gods can't survive being forgotten, Shar and Selune both predate the existence of worshippers, so at least I would think of them as being somewhat different from regular gods. -Not necessary. Here's a handy formula I wrote up to determine the relative power of a deity: P=(P1+P2+...)+(AWxAF) P=Power P1= Portfolio 1 P2= Portfolio 2 ...=Additional Portfolios AW= Amount of Worshippers AF= Fervor of Worshippers -If their portfolios afford them enough power, they can be forgotten, and continue to exist.
Roman 10-17-07, 04:33 PM	-Not necessary. Here's a handy formula I wrote up to determine the relative power of a deity: P=(P1+P2+...)+(AWxAF) P=Power P1= Portfolio 1 P2= Portfolio 2 ...=Additional Portfolios AW= Amount of Worshippers AF= Fervor of Worshippers -If their portfolios afford them enough power, they can be forgotten, and continue to exist. I like the formula, but it seems to me that the formula for power of a deity in FR is not explicitly defined by the designers. Implicitly, it is probably more akin to: P=k(WxF) Where: P = Power W = Number of Worshippers F = Fervor of Worshippers k = arbitrary constant Designers essentially set "k" implicitly by stating the importance of the deity in question. This is losely based on the strength and number of the portfolios. Still, when the numer of worshippers drops to zero, P also drops to zero... and the deity withers and disappears into oblivion. Of course, it would make sense to move towards a formula that is closer to yours. That would be something like: P=k(WxF) + c Where: c = another arbitrary constant This would alleviate inconsistencies of Selune's and Shar's survival prior to worshippers, as well as enable gods to survive in a weakened state without worshippers, but I don't think that is how it works in FR. In fact, I think matters divine and the nature of divine power remain relatively undefined in FR.
MaskedOne 10-17-07, 06:38 PM	I think being able to manifest the equivalent of 9th level spells wouldn't go far on the way to creating a reality with a whole bunch of worlds in it(not that I would think of Alter Reality is existing in a vacuum.. I would expect it to be dependent on some type of underlying laws/magic) Also... where normal gods can't survive being forgotten, Shar and Selune both predate the existence of worshippers, so at least I would think of them as being somewhat different from regular gods. The Shar we know is a broken down wreck of what she originally was, with both her and Selune having been in a war that actually created a whole bunch of gods.... a war that led to the creation of Mystryl from parts of Selune and Shar and didn't stop there... Ehh, Genesis creates a demiplane effectively and is a 9th level spell. Given enough time and excessive use of Alter Reality, it would be possible to expand such a place and bring it to life. Then again, since AO seems to have an interest in actually having a world, he could have arranged things. Someone refresh my memory as I don't have easy access to my books, is it ever directly stated that Shar and Selune created realmspace or simply that they predate it? Selune provided a sun but that's not the same as putting together the rest of Realmspace. Beyond that though, while the fate of Auppenser suggests that worship has provided some power to Toril's pantheons since the beginning, complete loss of worship was not a sure-fire way to get rid of them until AO got annoyed and linked all divinities of Toril to it. Prior to the Time of Troubles, it was important but not quite as vital which explains how Shar, Selune, Mystril and Chauntea could collectively predate the religions attached to them. Shar may be a bit unique as a power in some ways but her survival without worshippers prior to the Time of Troubles doesn't prove it since there is no guarantee she actually needed them.
GoldDragon 10-18-07, 12:05 PM	-This is one of my main gripes with the Shadow Weave, and deciding whether or not it should collapse with the Weave, and if Mystra should have any stewardship over it: We don't know it's origins. If we were ever told the Shadow Weave's definitive origins ("When such and such happened, Shar did XYZ..."), then I think we'd all be able to make much more informed and accurate decisions. Well, the Shadow Weave is the "negative' aspect of the Weave in the simplest terms...where as the Weave premeates the very fabric of reality and acts as a conduit for magical effects of all kinds of things to happen, the Shadow weave is the Negative Strands between the weave and reality. Thus if the Weave Collapses so does the Shadow Weave as they are Light Side and Dark Side of the same Force (oops, hope that didn't violate any copywrites). And Mystra is the Consciousness of the Weave both it's Light Side and Dark Side so this whole Shar thing and Shadow Weave magic thing is just a form of alternative Spell Casting that Mystra would be aware of but she can't control it anymore then she can control a Ghost walking through a wall, a Psionist using a Psionic Disipline, a priest turning undead or a Beholder using it's gazing effects...all things that must go through the "interface" that is the Weave
Lord Karsus 10-18-07, 12:49 PM	-None of this solves any of the points that I brought up. Well, the Shadow Weave is the "negative' aspect of the Weave in the simplest terms...where as the Weave premeates the very fabric of reality and acts as a conduit for magical effects of all kinds of things to happen, the Shadow weave is the Negative Strands between the weave and reality. -Is the Shadow Weave simply an 'echo' of the Weave- the 'back' of it? If so, then yes, the Shadow Weave should cease to exist. You cannot have a body if you don't have any bones to support muscles, and all of that. Was the Shadow Weave some sort of independent creation that was created by Shar, or stolen by Shar, or whatever else, that took opportunity of the 'gaps' in the Weave. If so, then no, the Shadow Weave should not cease to exist, as it already has it's own skeleton and framework. Is there some other origin? My point is that if we knew exactly how it got there, it would be a lot easier to determine if the Shadow Weave should collapse or not. Thus if the Weave Collapses so does the Shadow Weave as they are Light Side and Dark Side of the same Force (oops, hope that didn't violate any copywrites). -The idea of a Light Side and a Dark Side is flawed. These are just two ideologies espoused by two specific (but prevalent) Force sects- the Jedi and the Sith. There are other views of the Force (The Living Force, the Unifying Force) that are equally true, but are simply espoused by less well known sects.
MarkusTay63 10-18-07, 01:59 PM	The Weave IS Mystra, plain and simple. She came about when much of Shar and Selune's energies were ripped from them during their cosmic struggle. Ergo, Mystra is composed of equal parts of Shar and Selune, so then is the Weave. The portion of the Weave most people access is the 'webbing' (for lack of a better word), whereas the the 'Shadoweave' is actually the spaces in the Weave (it has been described thusly in canon). It is all part of the same construct, it is just that Shar has been 'tapping into' her half of Mystra in hopes of regaining control of her lost power. So techniacally, the Weave is a single construct composed of the Shadoweave and something 'else' (The Moonweave?), but most folks don't utilize the dark parts. I would suspect that in 4e, Shar will be successful and the lost energies of Shar and Selune will be returned to them.
18DELTA 10-18-07, 02:26 PM	Oh joy I can see it now. The Chosen of Selune using "moonfire". Sailor Moon for pure cheese!;) :P
Lord Karsus 10-18-07, 07:22 PM	The Weave IS Mystra, plain and simple. She came about when much of Shar and Selune's energies were ripped from them during their cosmic struggle. Ergo, Mystra is composed of equal parts of Shar and Selune, so then is the Weave. The portion of the Weave most people access is the 'webbing' (for lack of a better word), whereas the the 'Shadoweave' is actually the spaces in the Weave (it has been described thusly in canon). It is all part of the same construct, it is just that Shar has been 'tapping into' her half of Mystra in hopes of regaining control of her lost power. So techniacally, the Weave is a single construct composed of the Shadoweave and something 'else' (The Moonweave?), but most folks don't utilize the dark parts. -Your argument is flawed. When Mystryl ended herself, and for the very brief moment, the Weave ceased to exist, the Shadow Weave continued. If they were one and the same, the Shadow Weave should have ended as well. They, therefore, cannot be one and the same. Oh joy I can see it now. The Chosen of Selune using "moonfire". Sailor Moon for pure cheese!;) :P -There already is 'Moonfire'. See Magic of Faerūn.
GoldDragon 10-18-07, 08:50 PM	-Your argument is flawed. When Mystryl ended herself, and for the very brief moment, the Weave ceased to exist, the Shadow Weave continued. If they were one and the same, the Shadow Weave should have ended as well. They, therefore, cannot be one and the same. Magic of Faerūn. And now your aurgument is flawed because there is no documentation of the Shadow Weave during the fall of Mystryl so there is no way to see wether or not the Shadow Weave temporarily poped in and out of existance when the Weave that it is woven in between disapeared. In fact while the newer resources declared "there has always been a Shadow Weave as long as there has been a Weave", the thing that most iritates a lot of people, it also says that Shar covets the thing and never directly mentions that Shar actually made it...cause she didn't If the Weave is the "Body" of Mystra, then the Shadow Weave is her underwear and naughty bits even if Shar controls that aspect of her body. I mean, to say that Shar can't be a gaurdian of a bit of an Aspect of the weave is as silly as saying that Azuth can't be the god of Magic cause Mystra is already there when in fact Mystra is the sentinence of the "interface" that makes Magic possible in the Realms (along with all "sidespace stuff" like Psionics, god to Cleric Spell granting, a ghost ability to walk through walls, and a Medusea's ability to turn onlookers into stone)...that Shar keeps a "piece of the Weave and Mystra" for herselelf and hides it from common knowledge is no different then Azuth not allowing a new Spell to function in the Forgotten Realms as the god of "regular magic" (as appose to Mystra where denying magic to Mortals is "not her area"...she is just the sentinece of the Weave and all it's parts including the Shadow Weave) Methinks the main point of argument is of Mystra as an individual god that would appose Shar and embrace Azuth.....which while she might do on a personal level, she can't stop Shar from controlling her "Dark side" any more then she could protest Azuth not allowing one of her Chosen to make a spell that lets them cast fire from their eyes and lightning balls out of their ass because the spell is too Cliché..cause again spells metheds and allowing and disallowing magic isn't "her area" it is left to Shar the keeper of the "Shadow Weave" and Azuth the actual god of Spellcasting and Spellcasters of traditional regular Weave Magic.
Lord Karsus 10-19-07, 12:17 AM	And now your aurgument is flawed because there is no documentation of the Shadow Weave during the fall of Mystryl so there is no way to see wether or not the Shadow Weave temporarily poped in and out of existance when the Weave that it is woven in between disapeared. -No it isn't. Lord Shadow/Telamont Tanthul experimented with Shadow Weave magic back in the days of Ancient Netheril, created a Shadow Weave Mythallar. Sure, this has been retconned back in there, but it is canon fact none the less.
Zsych 10-20-07, 09:53 PM	In the Realms of Shadow Anthology, the Shade princes move the city into the Shadow-plane using Shadow-magic because regular magic was failing and the city starting to fall.
Lord Karsus 10-21-07, 12:41 AM	In the Realms of Shadow Anthology, the Shade princes move the city into the Shadow-plane using Shadow-magic because regular magic was failing and the city starting to fall. -Oh, yes, thank you. That too.
JRBlasingame 10-21-07, 03:45 PM	In the Realms of Shadow Anthology, the Shade princes move the city into the Shadow-plane using Shadow-magic because regular magic was failing and the city starting to fall. Well, my opinion is that Mystril was consciously working/reworking the weave. When she "died", that stopped. The shadow weave has never been "worded" like the normal weave has...so, when Mystril died the S. weave kept acting as normal (uncared for) while the N.weave of course would start working "wierd".
Lord Karsus 10-22-07, 12:10 AM	Well, my opinion is that Mystril was consciously working/reworking the weave. When she "died", that stopped. The shadow weave has never been "worded" like the normal weave has...so, when Mystril died the S. weave kept acting as normal (uncared for) while the N.weave of course would start working "wierd". -Mystra/Mystryl is/was magic. So long as Mystra/Mystryl exists/, so too does magic. If magic ceased to exist, so would Mystra/Mystryl. If Mystra/Mystryl ceased to exist, so too would magic. Note that I am using the word 'magic' as simply something to represent some kind of 'entity' encompassing the Weave and the Shadow Weave. -When Mystryl ended her existence, we know that the Weave ceased to exist, for a brief time. This is evidenced by the destruction of Netheril's floating enclaves, that came crashing to the ground when the magic that supported them ceased functioning. We know that the Shadow Weave continued to function. This is evidenced by the fact that the Shade Enclave was able to Plane Shift into the Plane of Shadows when 'normal magic' was otherwise not functioning. -If the Shadow Weave and the Weave are both two halves of a total sum, as MT is more or less saying, both the Weave and the Shadow Weave should have ceased to exist. Instead, one functioned and the other didn't.
Zsych 10-22-07, 01:33 AM	Should probably also add that when Mystryl wasn't managing the Weave, and it was under Karsus, magic became stronger because it wasn't being used for repairs anymore. I suspect that if the Shadow-weave was unmanaged, the sustained functioning of a shadow-weave mythallar would've been enough to tear a hole in it after a while(unless its basically more stable than the weave)
Lord Karsus 10-22-07, 10:36 AM	Should probably also add that when Mystryl wasn't managing the Weave, and it was under Karsus, magic became stronger because it wasn't being used for repairs anymore. -Erm...I don't know about that. I don't think that it's relative power really changed one way or another. But, if it did or did not really doesn't matter, since it all came crashing down anyway. I suspect that if the Shadow-weave was unmanaged, the sustained functioning of a shadow-weave mythallar would've been enough to tear a hole in it after a while(unless its basically more stable than the weave) -I don't think so. Presuambly, Shar repairs the Shadow Weave like Mystra repairs the Weave. The Weave was so damaged 'back in the day' because there were 10+ level magics being thrown around, and because there was so much of it. One Shadow Weave based Mythallar might exhibit powerful magics, but I don't necessarily think one would draw so much power that it would cause the Shadow Weave to fail. Ten, twenty, fifty? Yeah, maybe.
Derren S. 10-22-07, 11:09 AM	P=k(WxF) + c Where: c = another arbitrary constant I propose c = number of Fanboys and k = 1/number of complains about the deity in the board per year. Because in the end only marketing results determine the power of an important deity.
Lord Karsus 10-22-07, 11:32 AM	I propose c = number of Fanboys and k = 1/number of complains about the deity in the board per year. Because in the end only marketing results determine the power of an important deity. :rolleyes: -Real creative...
Sol_Odlanier 10-22-07, 03:49 PM	I don't know GD but if LK open his mouth to provide ANY lore of FR is a FACT. That Freaking dude is a walking library of the Realms:(
Lord Karsus 10-22-07, 04:09 PM	I don't know GD but if LK open his mouth to provide ANY lore of FR is a FACT. That Freaking dude is a walking library of the Realms:( -I can neither confirm nor deny that. ;)
Sol_Odlanier 10-22-07, 04:42 PM	-I can neither confirm nor deny that. ;) Hmm...
Sol_Odlanier 10-22-07, 04:44 PM	-I can neither confirm nor deny that. ;) Let me put it to the test if I May ? Who's the most powerful Paladin in the realms?
JRBlasingame 10-22-07, 05:08 PM	-Mystra/Mystryl is/was magic. So long as Mystra/Mystryl exists/, so too does magic. If magic ceased to exist, so would Mystra/Mystryl. If Mystra/Mystryl ceased to exist, so too would magic. Note that I am using the word 'magic' as simply something to represent some kind of 'entity' encompassing the Weave and the Shadow Weave. -When Mystryl ended her existence, we know that the Weave ceased to exist, for a brief time. This is evidenced by the destruction of Netheril's floating enclaves, that came crashing to the ground when the magic that supported them ceased functioning. We know that the Shadow Weave continued to function. This is evidenced by the fact that the Shade Enclave was able to Plane Shift into the Plane of Shadows when 'normal magic' was otherwise not functioning. -If the Shadow Weave and the Weave are both two halves of a total sum, as MT is more or less saying, both the Weave and the Shadow Weave should have ceased to exist. Instead, one functioned and the other didn't. this is confusing, because i have read that Mystril constantly was repairing the Weave (especially during Nethril's time). But if she is the weave (which i understand has been stated many time in many books) then wasn't she technically "operating" on herself? This doesn't really make much sense to me. I still think both weaves are linked (somehow). I really don't see much consistancy in the S.weave/N.weave. Maybe that is why they got rid of it (so far the only good thing to come out of 4e that i can tell). Edit - to me a better explanation would have been it being Shar's "missing" power from way back when, and the normal weave being Selune's. but that is neither here nor there.
Lord Karsus 10-22-07, 05:19 PM	But if she is the weave (which i understand has been stated many time in many books) then wasn't she technically "operating" on herself? This doesn't really make much sense to me. -Technically, I guess so. But remember, this is all metaphysics. When Mystra is 'repairing the Weave' who knows exactly what she is doing, and what it entails? I still think both weaves are linked (somehow). -Well, that's the gray area we're trying to illuminate: Somehow. :P Let me put it to the test if I May ? Who's the most powerful Paladin in the realms? -Bah, that's easy. Gareth Dragonsbane, King of Damara.
Sol_Odlanier 10-22-07, 05:24 PM	and that's why Im the subordinate
Storm_Silverhand 10-22-07, 08:28 PM	Heya, -Your argument is flawed. When Mystryl ended herself, and for the very brief moment, the Weave ceased to exist, the Shadow Weave continued. If they were one and the same, the Shadow Weave should have ended as well. They, therefore, cannot be one and the same. I don't think we know, with any certainty, what happened to the Shadow Weave when Mystryl sacrificed herself, since the Shadow Weave didn't "exist" then. (I put exist in quotes, since we don't know when the Shadow Weave came into being in the first place, but canonically, when the story of Mystryl's sacrifice was written there was no Shadow Weave.) Ed Greenwood once described the relationship between the Weave and the Shadow Weave thus: The Weave is the heart and arteries, and the Shadow Weave is the veins. If this is still actually canon (and I don't think it is, since the mega-module series says canonically that the Shadow Weave will unravel if the Weave does), then it's likely the Shadow Weave will cease to be if the Weave is destroyed.
Lord Karsus 10-22-07, 08:45 PM	and that's why Im the subordinate -Hey, you outrank me, technically. I'm just an ordinary civilian. -Thanks for everything you do, by the way. For all the 'prestige' or whatever it is that everyone says I have, I know I'd never be able to put on the boots and go to war. It takes something very special to be able to do that. I don't think we know, with any certainty, what happened to the Shadow Weave when Mystryl sacrificed herself, since the Shadow Weave didn't "exist" then. (I put exist in quotes, since we don't know when the Shadow Weave came into being in the first place, but canonically, when the story of Mystryl's sacrifice was written there was no Shadow Weave.) -Chronologically, the Shadow Weave came in later, but none of that matters, as it was retconned in there. As I demonstrated before, the Shadow Weave continued to exist and function after the Weave ceased to exist. Now, if there already is precident that this is the case, why would/should that change now, barring new and relevant future information that changes the dynamics of the question at hand?
Charles Phipps 10-22-07, 08:51 PM	Rich Baker said the Shadow Weave was meant as a check on Mystra's power...even though she already had a check on her power (the Chosen). I've got to say, Rino, that's the worst check in the history of the Realms. -The idea of a Light Side and a Dark Side is flawed. These are just two ideologies espoused by two specific (but prevalent) Force sects- the Jedi and the Sith. There are other views of the Force (The Living Force, the Unifying Force) that are equally true, but are simply espoused by less well known sects. All 4 are espoused by the same Jedi Order and Sith. Furthermore, George Lucas has definitely said they all literally exist and are not metaphorical.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-22-07, 10:23 PM	I've got to say, Rino, that's the worst check in the history of the Realms. The Shadow Weave, or the Chosen?
Charles Phipps 10-22-07, 10:40 PM	The Shadow Weave, or the Chosen? I'm skeptical of the Shadow Weave myself, because to me that just results in a Sith/Jedi dichotomy that I think is wrong. 99.9% of all wizards couldn't give a :censored: about Mystra yet Shadow Weave users are all Sharists. But the Chosen as a check on Mystra's power is silly because they're her representatives designed to make the Realms a safer and Mystra-friendly place. That's like saying Everis Cale is a check on Mask's power. No he's not, he exists to expand and cement it!
Lord Karsus 10-23-07, 12:09 AM	All 4 are espoused by the same Jedi Order and Sith. -There is no evidence that the Sith Order ever espoused the tenets of either the Unifying or the Living Force. Furthermore, at various points of time, ideologies that different from the norm were not encouraged.
Green Elven Vampire 10-23-07, 12:38 AM	What will people who use the SW do when there is no more SW to cast from? Die 4ED die! Mind you, I'm not against a fourth edition, just know that it's way, way too soon for a new edition. Poor Shadovar!
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 12:57 AM	I presume everyone's magic goes a little wonky.
Lord Karsus 10-23-07, 01:08 AM	What will people who use the SW do when there is no more SW to cast from? -Weep uncontrolably?
Zsych 10-23-07, 05:04 AM	... Find that they can suddenly access regular magic again(or that both normal weave users and shadow-weave users can learn to access the new magic) @LK: I think the strain on the Weave and how it was managed was a case of drawing power from parts of the world and supplying that to areas with higher magic to strengthen the Weave there and to repair breakages(which would be why the unmanaged weave would be stronger... as I recall reading that it was). I agree that Shar probably manages the Shadow-weave or has built a system into it that manages it. Otherwise, IMO too much magic usage in an area would cause the Shadow-weave to break in that area.
buzzard 10-23-07, 07:07 AM	...yet Shadow Weave users are all Sharists. Actually it's not mandatory to worship Shar to be able to use the Shadow Weave but she... ehm *encourages* shadow weave users to convert to the Sharran faith. ;)
Storm_Silverhand 10-23-07, 09:14 AM	Heya, -Chronologically, the Shadow Weave came in later, but none of that matters, as it was retconned in there. As I demonstrated before, the Shadow Weave continued to exist and function after the Weave ceased to exist. Now, if there already is precident that this is the case, why would/should that change now, barring new and relevant future information that changes the dynamics of the question at hand? Please site me a canon source that says that the Shadow Weave was unaffected when Mystryl sacrificed herself. As far as I know, you won't find one. You know, there's no point in arguing this anyway, since we all know the Shadow Weave is gone in 4e. That has been pretty implicit in what I've read on the subject to this date. (Why would they kill the Weave and still keep the Shadow Weave? That wouldn't make any sense at all.)
buzzard 10-23-07, 09:43 AM	Please site me a canon source that says that the Shadow Weave was unaffected when Mystryl sacrificed herself. As far as I know, you won't find one. He cited the City of Shade plane shifting to the Shadow Plane, it could only be done by using the Shadow Weave since the regular Weave ceased to function.
Alediran 10-23-07, 09:53 AM	Actually, if you read that short story (in Realms of Shadow) it says that they Plane Shifted moment before the completion of Karsus' Avatar. That changes things in that the Weave and Mystryl were still there when the did it. And that is the only source written about those moments.
Red_Wizard 10-23-07, 10:47 AM	lol, ACTUALLY, there are two sources stating two different things pertaining to the city of Shade shifting. One being the short story, saying Lord Shadow shifted as Magic was failing, and the other states that he shifted --IIRC-- the day before the event, and returned after it occurred. This said, neither account shows him using the shadow weave to do so, and it has been stated when he did shift his city, he was only beginning to understand the inner workings of using shadow to power his spells. It wasn't until a good deal of time in the plane of shadow past, that many of them began to practise Shadow magic in earnest.
buzzard 10-23-07, 10:54 AM	lol, ACTUALLY, there are two sources stating two different things pertaining to the city of Shade shifting. One being the short story, saying Lord Shadow shifted as Magic was failing, and the other states that he shifted --IIRC-- the day before the event, and returned after it occurred. This said, neither account shows him using the shadow weave to do so, and it has been stated when he did shift his city, he was only beginning to understand the inner workings of using shadow to power his spells. It wasn't until a good deal of time in the plane of shadow past, that many of them began to practise Shadow magic in earnest. If magic (weave) was failing in one case then, he must have used the Shadow Weave to plane shift. IIRC the source in which it's stated that he plane shifts while falling is Magic of Faerūn or Player's Guide to Faerūn (maybe even LEoF).
Alediran 10-23-07, 11:00 AM	There is a difference between "magic failling" and "magic unexistant". The first situation is that short time before the bomb explodes where you "could" survive by an extraordinary event (a last seccond plane shift while it could still be done), the seccond is where you are probably dead (what happened to most Netherese enclaves)
buzzard 10-23-07, 11:03 AM	There is a difference between "magic failling" and "magic unexistant". The first situation is that short time before the bomb explodes where you "could" survive by an extraordinary event (a last seccond plane shift while it could still be done), the seccond is where you are probably dead (what happened to most Netherese enclaves) Actually you're right, it's magic nonexistent because Mystryl (who WAS the Weave) died so that means no Weave at all and thus, the other option is the Shadow Weave.
Red_Wizard 10-23-07, 11:04 AM	The problem with that theory is that you are favouring one source over the other. If you wish to do so, then I'll have to point out the novel stated they were already partially shifted into the plane of shadow when magic failed. Given that Mystra's weave does not extend beyond Toril itself, one could easily draw the conclusion that he drew upon the normal magic of the multiverse, that all wizards not of Toril use. IE: regular DnD magic. This being said, if you chose to stand by the one rendition of the story, and ignore the other, you must then recognize the edition in which it was stated. By doing this, you then must recognize that Magic of Faerun puts the shadow weave as the negative area between the weaves strands, and therefore had the weave failed, the shadow weave must have also. Alternatively, if you also go by the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, then you have proof that the shadow weave could not have existed at the time, as it states it was Karsus''s folly that split the weave in twain, and therefore no shadow weave existed from which Lord Shadow could have drawn. By the sources, and all their varied descriptions one can not accurately state when or how the Shadow weave was truly formed. -RW
buzzard 10-23-07, 11:08 AM	This being said, if you chose to stand by the one rendition of the story, and ignore the other, you must then recognize the edition in which it was stated. By doing this, you then must recognize that Magic of Faerun puts the shadow weave as the negative area between the weaves strands, and therefore had the weave failed, the shadow weave must have also. MoF is very explicit when stating that the Shadow Weave is completely separate from the Weave and should the Weave collapse nothing would happen to the Shadow Weave. This is logical because the negative area between the Weave's strands are not places that the Weave itself touches but are empty (or to be more precise, filled with the Shadow Weave). Alternatively, if you also go by the Return of the Archwizards trilogy, then you have proof that the shadow weave could not have existed at the time, as it states it was Karsus''s folly that split the weave in twain, and therefore no shadow weave existed from which Lord Shadow could have drawn. Lord Shadow could have tapped the Shadow Weave in the precise instant in which Karsus folly took place, and this is probable considering that Shar already took special interest in Tanthul's familiy.
Alediran 10-23-07, 11:13 AM	MoF is very explicit when stating that the Shadow Weave is completely separate from the Weave and should the Weave collapse nothing would happen to the Shadow Weave. This is logical because the negative area between the Weave's strands are not places that the Weave itself touches but are empty (or to be more precise, filled with the Shadow MoF is a 3.0 book, it has been trumped by more recent publications (the Shadowdale module) and Ed's words. If the Weave falls, the Shadow Weave falls too.
Red_Wizard 10-23-07, 12:14 PM	MoF is very explicit when stating that the Shadow Weave is completely separate from the Weave and should the Weave collapse nothing would happen to the Shadow Weave. This is logical because the negative area between the Weave's strands are not places that the Weave itself touches but are empty (or to be more precise, filled with the Shadow Weave). Sorry, apparently I am misquoting my sources, as Alediran shows above this post. Stating stuff at work proves difficult sometimes. Lord Shadow could have tapped the Shadow Weave in the precise instant in which Karsus folly took place, and this is probable considering that Shar already took special interest in Tanthul's familiy. And he might not have. I am not refuting the possibility, I am simply saying there is as of yet no definitive method of dating the Shadow Weave.
Telagaunt 10-23-07, 12:46 PM	IMO there are more cases where the SW existed pre-Folly. The 2 short stories where there was a Shadow Mythallar, and the one where Telamont transferred Shade to the Plane of Shadow when all the other cities were falling (as Devil's Advocate here, in the same short story says Shade was falling aswell but slower, but could be because Shade had a Weave-based Mythallar and a Shadow-Weave, a generator, and a backup generator so to speak. If not.. then this little tidbit if to be taken canon that Shade was falling [slower] and say only had the SW Mythallar, then you could say the Weaves are linked.. THEN you could go on to say or not say, maybe they were linked back then somewhat, but wasn't until Karsus Folly and Mystryl/Mystra's first death Shar was able to fully seperate the SW). There's also the description in FRCS that states Shar created the SW when Mystra was created. This also could've been a typo, and they meant Mystryl. Or maybe they purposely meant to say Mystra. But given the context of the paragraph (where they're talking about the creation of the Weave, and thus Mystryl), and do not mention Karsus Folly or anything (here they are talking about basically the beginning of time), I take it they made a typo. There's the MoF which states the Weave and SW are truly independent (for now).. There's the short story The Shadow Stone which implies the Imaskari used the Shadow Weave (thus before Karsus Folly). Though, that is the only mention of it. The Deep Imaskar chapter in Underdark have no mention of Imaskar using the SW, before or after their fall. I'm still trying to catch up on all what's going to happen in 4E. So idk where or who officially said the SW is no more. And if it is, it doesn't neccessarily mean that Mystra's permenant death and the Spellplague are the cause of the SW being destroyed. Remember this, Rivalen predict's Shar's greatest weakness is yet to come in the Twilight War trilogy, and we're only at Book 2 so far :P
Lord Karsus 10-23-07, 01:09 PM	@LK: I think the strain on the Weave and how it was managed was a case of drawing power from parts of the world and supplying that to areas with higher magic to strengthen the Weave there and to repair breakages(which would be why the unmanaged weave would be stronger... as I recall reading that it was). -I don't know if it is actually a geographic thing, like you are implying. Remember, it's all metaphysical, anyway. Please site me a canon source that says that the Shadow Weave was unaffected when Mystryl sacrificed herself. As far as I know, you won't find one. -I already have. According to the short story in Realms of Shadow, as the Netherese enclaves began falling as the Weave ceased to exist, the citizens of the Shade enclave were able to use magic to shunt their city into the Plane of Shadow. Because of the fact that the city already had a Shadow Weave Mythallar, and influential magi already dabbled and practiced magic based on the Shadow Weave, it's isn't difficult to put two and two together. You know, there's no point in arguing this anyway, since we all know the Shadow Weave is gone in 4e. That has been pretty implicit in what I've read on the subject to this date. -Zandilar, I am very disappointed in you. Do you have 4e Derangement Syndrome too? -Who cares what 4e is going to do so the Shadow Weave. Why should that have any impact on our scholarly debates on Realmslore? In a scholarly community (and hopefully, I'm not stretching the word) such as this, we debate simply for the sake of debating and furthering our understanding of the canon. (Why would they kill the Weave and still keep the Shadow Weave? That wouldn't make any sense at all.) -Yes, which is why we are debating why it should not simply disppear, or why it should disappear.
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 01:55 PM	I think the Shadow Weave shouldn't exist in 4th. I think it served its purpose. How about you?
Telagaunt 10-23-07, 02:31 PM	I dont think it served it's purpose. I think that's yet to be seen. The SW was fully and officially introduced, 5 years ago, and there's really only 2 trilogies (1 in the middle so far) concerning it's key society, the Shades. Although I'll admit maybe how Twilight War will end maybe that will suffice for me. Although, I did see this a few minutes ago http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=products/fracc/978078694 under 'Compatible 4E Products'.
Lord Karsus 10-23-07, 07:03 PM	I think the Shadow Weave shouldn't exist in 4th. I think it served its purpose. How about you? -I think that depends on that you consider the purpose of the Shadow Weave. If the purpose was to seriously screw around with all of us, then it worked perfectly. If the purpose was to weaken Mystra, we have yet to see that pan out. If it's true purpose has yet to be revealed, as Shar is the Mistress of Secrets, it still might have some 'life' left in in. -Though I never liked the Shadow Weave, I don't want to see it disappearing just yet. Though it has been retconned to have always existed, it was only introduced into the setting a few years ago. 'Erasing' it so soon comes off to me a little...tacky?- even if it is warranted. Know what I mean?
buzzard 10-23-07, 07:11 PM	MoF is a 3.0 book, it has been trumped by more recent publications (the Shadowdale module) and Ed's words. If the Weave falls, the Shadow Weave falls too. I know that, yet, as "all-things-Mystra-related" it ends contradicting previous lore. The floating cities of Netheril fell because the collapse of the Weave yet the City of Shade (using a Shadow Weave mythallar) did not thus they are not the same. As hated as the Shadow Weave is, it was created under logical circumstances and the few retcons it had didn't contradict anything previous to it. The W and SW are linked idea does contradict lore (so we have to add this to the initiate of Mystra and the weave is the life support system of the world to the list of contradictions that Mystra represents).
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 07:29 PM	-I think that depends on that you consider the purpose of the Shadow Weave. If the purpose was to seriously screw around with all of us, then it worked perfectly. If the purpose was to weaken Mystra, we have yet to see that pan out. If it's true purpose has yet to be revealed, as Shar is the Mistress of Secrets, it still might have some 'life' left in in. I think the purpose of the Shadow Weave was to provide a Non-Mystran magic source for player characters afraid of a NG Goddess of Magic along with also providing something cool for Shar to have. Shar was pretty lacking in a lot of defining aspects pre-3E.
Lord Karsus 10-23-07, 07:37 PM	I think the purpose of the Shadow Weave was to provide a Non-Mystran magic source for player characters afraid of a NG Goddess of Magic along with also providing something cool for Shar to have. Shar was pretty lacking in a lot of defining aspects pre-3E. -If that's what we want to define as it's purpose, then I believe that the Shadow Weave shouldn't be removed. When? Theoretically, never. Even if Mystra and the Weave ceased to exist, and some sort of new, universal system of magic came to replace them, why would Shar want the SW to be eliminated as well? It brings her more worshippers, who in turn, give her more power, and it gives her something to hold over their heads, by withholding it's power and all. I'm mixing in and out of game reasons, but...
Charles Phipps 10-23-07, 08:38 PM	True, but if the gods in General can't grant the Weave to followers and only Mystra can then Shar should lose it. If Shar can grant the weave because she's a creator goddess then so should Selune.
Storm_Silverhand 10-23-07, 08:43 PM	Heya, -I already have. According to the short story in Realms of Shadow, as the Netherese enclaves began falling as the Weave ceased to exist, the citizens of the Shade enclave were able to use magic to shunt their city into the Plane of Shadow. Because of the fact that the city already had a Shadow Weave Mythallar, and influential magi already dabbled and practiced magic based on the Shadow Weave, it's isn't difficult to put two and two together. Perhaps the Shadow Weave simply lingered long enough for them to vanish? Or both Weave and Shadow Weave fluctuated before going out - like lights dimming in a house, then brightening, and then finally going out when the power is interrupted? There's plenty of explanations that can be thought of to explain it. As for the reference, while I have the book, I just didn't think of it since the Shadow Weave simply doesn't exist in my version of the Realms - therefore there was no need to explain anything in my Realms. -Zandilar, I am very disappointed in you. Do you have 4e Derangement Syndrome too? I'd actually like to think I don't. I was merely saying that there are some people who are still clinging to the hope that the Shadow Weave will somehow escape the fate of the Weave and still be in existence in 4e, when it's really beyond conjecture. There will be no Shadow Weave in 4e period. There's nothing to talk about except the whys and wherefores of its demise. -Who cares what 4e is going to do so the Shadow Weave. Why should that have any impact on our scholarly debates on Realmslore? In a scholarly community (and hopefully, I'm not stretching the word) such as this, we debate simply for the sake of debating and furthering our understanding of the canon. Well it should have an impact, because if it doesn't exist in 4e, then the only things we can argue about are, as I said, the whys and wherefores of its demise. There's no point in me saying "There is not going to be any Shadow Weave in 4e" and someone else replying "But there there will be!" over and over again, despite me having the weight of evidence on my side - that is not a scholarly argument. -Yes, which is why we are debating why it should not simply disppear, or why it should disappear. Well the answer to that is simple - the Shadow Weave should disappear for exactly the same reasons the Weave should disappear, since they are the opposite sides of the same coin. It would be ludicrous for Weave users to have to move to the 4e magic system, while the Shadow Weave users somehow manage to stay with the 3.5e magic system. The change is for consistency - sure they mucked up with the introduction of the Shadow Weave in the first place, but now they have to work with that mistake and keep things consistent. And if you want the opinion of the petulant child within me - I don't want to see the Shadow Weave "beat" the Weave thanks. I hate it when the bad guys win. ;) :P :D
Zsych 10-23-07, 09:32 PM	I'd like the Shadow-weave to survive maintaining the old system of magic, while the left-overs of Mystra turn into a copy of 4E magic :) I suspect though that with the at will spells available to 4E wizards, shadow magic users might find themselves in a lot of trouble. (wonder whats going to be done to old 10+ magic now that there are going to be more levels of spells... makes me think of the incredibly boring spells in Dungeon Siege 2... Lesser Fireball... Fireball... Greater Fireball... your power and enemies scaling so that you never feel like anything has changed and its the same boring game continuing)
Telagaunt 10-23-07, 11:28 PM	It was cliche IMO to introduce fully the Shadow Weave. If anything under a single god or godesses' power like the Weave is. However, Shade was always a mystery. Even the old 2E Netheril Empire of Magic (or was it 1E I forget) mentions how Shade survived and how it was continually cloaked in darkness etc.. I remember back when reading that I was like wow, what happened to them. And so I loved when RotA came out and how it was Shade that had this.. 'Shadow Weave'. To me, they always finally proved a decent enemy of the Chosen. Which is why I'd like to see it stick around a bit longer. They just got here. Furthermore, it's just stupid IMO, here the last surviving Netheril city , Shade Enclave, comes back to Faerun after 1700 years, and 100 years or so after returning to Faerun they are no more? Especially after surviving that long in the Plane of Shadow, yet only a century goes by and everything is moot. Now, as far as I know, no one is saying that the Shadovar are gone also in 4E, however having the SW gone has some big implications.
Lord Karsus 10-24-07, 12:08 AM	True, but if the gods in General can't grant the Weave to followers and only Mystra can then Shar should lose it. If Shar can grant the weave because she's a creator goddess then so should Selune. -I'm not exactly sure I'm following you on this one. Since Mystra is the only deity that can 'allow' others to access the Weave, Shar should lose her ability to 'allow' others access to the Shadow Weave? I was talking about the Shadow Weave before, if that clears things up. Perhaps the Shadow Weave simply lingered long enough for them to vanish? Or both Weave and Shadow Weave fluctuated before going out - like lights dimming in a house, then brightening, and then finally going out when the power is interrupted? There's plenty of explanations that can be thought of to explain it. -Possibly. But, there are no references anywhere that mention something like this happening. Though there is a limited amount of canon information on the Shadow Weave, if the authors/designers wanted it to be known that the Shadow Weave fell apart when Mystryl ended her existence, it would have been written somewhere, whether that be in a novel, the FRCS, MoF, one of the three 'super-adventures', etc... I'd actually like to think I don't. -Let's hope you're not suffering from it. You're one of the premier posters around here. I was merely saying that there are some people who are still clinging to the hope that the Shadow Weave will somehow escape the fate of the Weave and still be in existence in 4e, when it's really beyond conjecture. There will be no Shadow Weave in 4e period. There's nothing to talk about except the whys and wherefores of its demise. Well it should have an impact, because if it doesn't exist in 4e, then the only things we can argue about are, as I said, the whys and wherefores of its demise. There's no point in me saying "There is not going to be any Shadow Weave in 4e" and someone else replying "But there there will be!" over and over again, despite me having the weight of evidence on my side - that is not a scholarly argument. -Replying, simply "But there will be!" isn't scholarly, no. But, the debate that we are all currently having is. The fact that the Shadow Weave, the 'Universal Weave', or whatever else won't exist in 4e, again, doesn't matter to the debate at hand- should it cease to exist? Is there evidence based on precident that it should or shouldn't? Well the answer to that is simple - the Shadow Weave should disappear for exactly the same reasons the Weave should disappear, since they are the opposite sides of the same coin. It would be ludicrous for Weave users to have to move to the 4e magic system, while the Shadow Weave users somehow manage to stay with the 3.5e magic system. The change is for consistency - sure they mucked up with the introduction of the Shadow Weave in the first place, but now they have to work with that mistake and keep things consistent. -This gets back to the very heart of the matter- is the Shadow Weave inherently tied to the Weave, or is it something more? Does it need the support of the Weave, or can it support itself? (wonder whats going to be done to old 10+ magic now that there are going to be more levels of spells... -I hear you. Before you know it, casting a 12th level spell isn't going to be anything special...:( ;)
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 12:25 AM	-I'm not exactly sure I'm following you on this one. Since Mystra is the only deity that can 'allow' others to access the Weave, Shar should lose her ability to 'allow' others access to the Shadow Weave? I was talking about the Shadow Weave before, if that clears things up. I'm saying that if Shar can create her own Weave, others should be able to.
Telagaunt 10-24-07, 01:20 AM	It's not that easy though. I admit, Shar 'creating' the SW is even rules-sense somewhat extreme. But, if you opt to believe Shar created (and there is a sense of responsibility towards creation, accidental, purposeful, did she make it over time, w/e), the SW when Mystryl was created, you have to remember Shar is a Greater Deity. And a very powerful one at that. I remember her DR was only 1 below AO. It's not like the god of orcs can so easily create his own magic Weave. Especially with the idea mentioned above if she created it at nearly the dawn of time. Also gods were much more irresponsible pre-ToT than they are now. Game sense and fluff. Selune is the mother of Mystryl/Mystra, and Shar... a being that existed before Toril, related in a sense too. You have to remember Shar has been around since the beginning, she's much more plausible to be able to do something that say... idk Lolth, or Tyr, Talos or some other Greater God can do. Especially post-ToT.
GoldDragon 10-24-07, 07:56 AM	-Mystra/Mystryl is/was magic. So long as Mystra/Mystryl exists/, so too does magic. If magic ceased to exist, so would Mystra/Mystryl. If Mystra/Mystryl ceased to exist, so too would magic. Note that I am using the word 'magic' as simply something to represent some kind of 'entity' encompassing the Weave and the Shadow Weave. -When Mystryl ended her existence, we know that the Weave ceased to exist, for a brief time. This is evidenced by the destruction of Netheril's floating enclaves, that came crashing to the ground when the magic that supported them ceased functioning. We know that the Shadow Weave continued to function. This is evidenced by the fact that the Shade Enclave was able to Plane Shift into the Plane of Shadows when 'normal magic' was otherwise not functioning. -If the Shadow Weave and the Weave are both two halves of a total sum, as MT is more or less saying, both the Weave and the Shadow Weave should have ceased to exist. Instead, one functioned and the other didn't. Err, yes and no. The Shadow Weave is not the exclusive source of Shadow Magic nor Demi-Plane of Shadow or using shadow as a form of power which is what the Shades are really dealing with here. They would have no need for Shar or any godling in the Demi-Plane of Shadows as that is neither her domain nor would she have any real power there as she is a godling bound to Realmspace So yeah, Shadow Weave magic, Shadow weave Mythilars, Shadow Weave magic items and such would have been availible, but moving their City outside of the Domain of Shar's Powers would mean they had the aility to superceed the Shadow Weave (maybe knowing it would fall with the regular weave) and power their magic and items with raw Shadow Magic bypassing the Shadow Weave interface all together It's a real problem with Weave Magic users that they can't memorize spells outside of Realmspace and Weave Magic Items don't work outside of Realmspace either so Shadow Weave based magic would be useless outside of Realmspace too and the City of Shade would have lost everything Shadow Weave related as soon as they exited the Forgotten Realms into the Raw Source of their alternative magic
buzzard 10-24-07, 08:14 AM	They would have no need for Shar or any godling in the Demi-Plane of Shadows as that is neither her domain nor would she have any real power there as she is a godling bound to Realmspace As of D&D 3.0/3.5, it's no longer the Demi-Plane of Shadows, it's a full fledged plane controlled primarily by Shar and in some measure by Mask.
Lord Karsus 10-24-07, 10:49 AM	I'm saying that if Shar can create her own Weave, others should be able to. -Gotcha. As I said earlier, if we knew the exact origins of the Shadow Weave, this would all be easier. Who knows just exactly how the Shadow Weave came to be? Sure, it looks like Shar created it, but there always is the possibility that she didn't. Could Shar have stolen it from somewhere else? Was it created as a byproduct of the Weave, and Shar simply just took control of it? These are just hazy theories, with little evidence to back them up, but they can still be theoretical possibilities. I remember her DR was only 1 below AO. -AO doesn't have a DR. He/it transcends DRs. The Shadow Weave is not the exclusive source of Shadow Magic nor Demi-Plane of Shadow or using shadow as a form of power which is what the Shades are really dealing with here. -No, no it is not. Shadow Weave is the exclusive source for Shadow Weave magic. Shadow Magic does not harness the power of the Shadow Weave. However, we know that the archmagi on the Shade Enclave had learned of the Shadow Weave, and were dabbling with it's power. As I said before, it doesn't take a leap of the imagination here to put two and two together. I always thought it was pretty much implied. They would have no need for Shar or any godling in the Demi-Plane of Shadows as that is neither her domain nor would she have any real power there as she is a godling bound to Realmspace. -Shar's deific realm is indeed in the Plane of Shadows. But, no, at no point would the citizens of the Shade enclave ever bbe beholden to Shar. I don't think anyone said that they would be, though. So yeah, Shadow Weave magic, Shadow weave Mythilars, Shadow Weave magic items and such would have been availible, but moving their City outside of the Domain of Shar's Powers would mean they had the aility to superceed the Shadow Weave (maybe knowing it would fall with the regular weave) and power their magic and items with raw Shadow Magic bypassing the Shadow Weave interface all together. -That is a possibility. But, what's to say that the Shadow Weave doesn't permutate through the Plane of Shadows as well. It's a real problem with Weave Magic users that they can't memorize spells outside of Realmspace and Weave Magic Items don't work outside of Realmspace either so Shadow Weave based magic would be useless outside of Realmspace too and the City of Shade would have lost everything Shadow Weave related as soon as they exited the Forgotten Realms into the Raw Source of their alternative magic/ -Who said that magicians from Realmspace can't cast magic outside of Realmspace? There has never been a case where this was such. As I mentioned in another thread, the Weave as a source of magic is purely cosmetic, and really has no bearing on the ability of a D&D character to cast magic. As of D&D 3.0/3.5, it's no longer the Demi-Plane of Shadows, it's a full fledged plane controlled primarily by Shar and in some measure by Mask. -Incorrect. She inhabits the plane, but she in no way controls the entire place. She simply has a presence there, and controls certain areas.
Telagaunt 10-24-07, 01:48 PM	Yeah but I thought an 'overgod' had a DR 20 and Shar's was 19?
Alediran 10-24-07, 01:53 PM	Overgods are over DvR 21
MaskedOne 10-24-07, 04:57 PM	Yeah but I thought an 'overgod' had a DR 20 and Shar's was 19? Shar is DvR 18 and AO is somewhere over 20.
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 05:06 PM	Yes, there's a difference between Overgod "Chaos" in Dragonlance where the gods can fight him. And Overgod Ao whom just causally smashes all the pantheons at once.
Storm_Silverhand 10-24-07, 07:19 PM	Heya, -Possibly. But, there are no references anywhere that mention something like this happening. Though there is a limited amount of canon information on the Shadow Weave, if the authors/designers wanted it to be known that the Shadow Weave fell apart when Mystryl ended her existence, it would have been written somewhere, whether that be in a novel, the FRCS, MoF, one of the three 'super-adventures', etc... Actually, I remember that short story now... Too Long in the Dark, by Paul S. Kemp. The main character notes that the Shadow Weave hadn't failed as the Weave did, but we can't necessarily take that as true fact, given that the city of Shade was already half in the Plane of Shadow... Maybe that proximity to another plane (and that plane in particular) altered his perception? (By the way, Shade did actually begin to fall... So its levitation was definitely powered by the Weave.) It also directly contradicts later canon (non-story/novel) sources that claim that the Weave and the Shadow Weave are inextricably linked, and that if the Weave fails, the Shadow Weave will too. (It makes sense, don't you think? If you take away something that casts a shadow, you take away its shadow as well. If you destroy the heart and arteries, then the veins cease to function.) -Let's hope you're not suffering from it. You're one of the premier posters around here. :embarrass I don't quite know what to say to that. :) -Replying, simply "But there will be!" isn't scholarly, no. But, the debate that we are all currently having is. The fact that the Shadow Weave, the 'Universal Weave', or whatever else won't exist in 4e, again, doesn't matter to the debate at hand- should it cease to exist? Is there evidence based on precident that it should or shouldn't? It should cease to exist. The most recent canon sources pretty much specify that it would disappear if the Weave does. I think the main problem we have is that the developers didn't really know what it was to begin with. They hadn't totally set its parameters in the Realms when they went to print, and thus we have a whole lot of inconsistencies in the way it has been portrayed, right from the get go. -This gets back to the very heart of the matter- is the Shadow Weave inherently tied to the Weave, or is it something more? Does it need the support of the Weave, or can it support itself? Get back to me when you can prove that the shadow you cast can exist without you. ;) :D :P Seriously, though, there are recent canon sources that imply the two are linked. While the Weave may continue without its shadow, the Shadow Weave cannot exist without the Weave.
buzzard 10-24-07, 08:09 PM	...By the way, Shade did actually begin to fall... So its levitation was definitely powered by the Weave. Shade began to fall because it floated thanks to a Weave based mythallar but, it also had a Shadow Weave mythallar as a backup and, that one was used to plane shift the floating city, so no, there's no connection between both Weaves. The more recent retcon (both Weaves are linked) completely destroys any chance the Shades had back then to survive (but they DID survive) and it also implies that in 4th edition probably every citizen of Shade was translated to another place prior to the Spellplague or else they'd be dead.
Storm_Silverhand 10-25-07, 03:22 AM	Heya, Shade began to fall because it floated thanks to a Weave based mythallar but, it also had a Shadow Weave mythallar as a backup and, that one was used to plane shift the floating city, so no, there's no connection between both Weaves. The short story in question actually states that the city was already half way into the Plane of Shadow. We don't know what kind of effect that might have had on the whole situation. The Shadow "Weave" was invented in a novel for the world of the Birthright setting (I keep saying Mystara, but I am pretty sure that's not the world's name), which was then discontinued. The novel had no home, so they shoe horned it into the Realms. Even Rich Baker now seems to think that wasn't a particularly good idea. Anyway, because of the way the Shadow Weave was introduced, it now has so many inconsistencies that we just have to go by the most recent canon source. The more recent retcon (both Weaves are linked) completely destroys any chance the Shades had back then to survive (but they DID survive) and it also implies that in 4th edition probably every citizen of Shade was translated to another place prior to the Spellplague or else they'd be dead. We don't know exactly what happens, but we do know that both Weaves are gone in 4th Edition.
Zsych 10-25-07, 03:31 AM	I've never thought of the SW as being the Weave's shadow. It was supposed to be an independent creation of Shar's copying the Weave, and thus not something that was dependent on the Weave. The stories with the Shadow-weave functioning with the Weave dead, and the Shadow-weave mythallar working prior to Karsus Avatar, are based on that concept. ... And I think you shouldn't casually retcon accepted lore. Making the SW the underside of the Weave makes it almost completely uninteresting.
Storm_Silverhand 10-25-07, 03:41 AM	Heya, I've never thought of the SW as being the Weave's shadow. It was supposed to be an independent creation of Shar's copying the Weave, and thus not something that was dependent on the Weave. You mean the term Shadow Weave didn't suggest it, in and of itself? I find that rather surprising. And we don't know whether or not Shar "created" the Shadow Weave. The simplest explanation, IMHO, is that it was created when the Weave was, and only later did Shar learn how to tap its power for herself. Shar is powerful, but I don't think she's that powerful. It took two gods to create the Weave, and that was only by chance. ... And I think you shouldn't casually retcon accepted lore. Making the SW the underside of the Weave makes it almost completely uninteresting. I'm not casually retconning anything... That's the designers being unable to make up their minds precisely what the Shadow Weave was. Personally, I believe that the Shadow Weave should never have been introduced into the Realms to begin with.
Zsych 10-25-07, 03:51 AM	I took the SW the way I did, because that was the accepted lore at the time. That the word Shadow had nothing to do with it being a shadow of the Weave. It was an independent construct created by Shar. Also, if Shar and Selune could accidentally create the Weave(and a super-powerful goddess in the process), then creating a Weave while knowing what you are doing(after studying the Weave) shouldn't be that costly at all. Besides Ed had already said that if the Weave was destroyed, other gods could also conceivably create an equivalent with some effort. As for the retcon, I'm not saying that you are retconning anything Storm, its just that newer lore ignored older lore, which is annoying especially when the newer lore adds nothing interesting to the mix by itself. ... The Shadow-weave at least made Shar much more interesting, and a much more serious threat than she had seemed before. It also started a debate about possibly restored 10+ magic, or at least different magic in it at higher levels, which would also have meant interesting things(with the Shades being baddies)
Red_Wizard 10-25-07, 10:58 AM	If magic (weave) was failing in one case then, he must have used the Shadow Weave to plane shift. IIRC the source in which it's stated that he plane shifts while falling is Magic of Faerūn or Player's Guide to Faerūn (maybe even LEoF). Sorry, overlooked this one. The source that states he shifted while falling was the short story. The other sources have him shifting prior to the event. This still allows by source lore for him to have used Weave magic to shift. If we go by the short stories, we should probably also follow the return of the archwizards trilogy as well, in which it states that the shadow weave was created by Karsus's folly and the splitting of the weave, thus making it impossible to have used it to shift.
Alediran 10-25-07, 12:07 PM	Sorry, overlooked this one. The source that states he shifted while falling was the short story. The other sources have him shifting prior to the event. This still allows by source lore for him to have used Weave magic to shift. If we go by the short stories, we should probably also follow the return of the archwizards trilogy as well, in which it states that the shadow weave was created by Karsus's folly and the splitting of the weave, thus making it impossible to have used it to shift. I hate when writers don't do homework before writing that kind of s***. P.D: I vote for a free Unther.
Lord Karsus 10-25-07, 01:08 PM	Actually, I remember that short story now... Too Long in the Dark, by Paul S. Kemp. The main character notes that the Shadow Weave hadn't failed as the Weave did, but we can't necessarily take that as true fact, given that the city of Shade was already half in the Plane of Shadow... Maybe that proximity to another plane (and that plane in particular) altered his perception? (By the way, Shade did actually begin to fall... So its levitation was definitely powered by the Weave.) -Perhaps. But, then that opens up the whole can of worms I was discussing with GoldDragon about the Weave and/or Shadow Weave existing and/or not existing in certain places. It also directly contradicts later canon (non-story/novel) sources that claim that the Weave and the Shadow Weave are inextricably linked, and that if the Weave fails, the Shadow Weave will too. (It makes sense, don't you think? If you take away something that casts a shadow, you take away its shadow as well. If you destroy the heart and arteries, then the veins cease to function.) -When hasn't the SW contradicted established lore? That's why I said before that it's true purpose was to aggrivate us! ;) -I never took Shadow Weave to be a 'shadow of the Weave', either. I always understood it to be a 'version' of the Weave infused and somehow based in Shadow magics. -And note, if you destroy the heart and arteries, veins will continue to function a short while after. :embarrass I don't quite know what to say to that. :) -Well, you've earned it. :) It should cease to exist. The most recent canon sources pretty much specify that it would disappear if the Weave does. -On the issue of the Shadow Weave, since when has the canon been right!? :P :D I think the main problem we have is that the developers didn't really know what it was to begin with. They hadn't totally set its parameters in the Realms when they went to print, and thus we have a whole lot of inconsistencies in the way it has been portrayed, right from the get go. -Agreed. Get back to me when you can prove that the shadow you cast can exist without you. ;) :D :P -Don't know the proper term for the idea- sorry. "Nuclear shadows". :P
DnDsnd 10-25-07, 06:05 PM	I for one hope that there will be some shadow magic and shadow stuff to play with, what's life without the darkside. May the shadows be with you.
Storm_Silverhand 10-25-07, 07:31 PM	Heya, -Perhaps. But, then that opens up the whole can of worms I was discussing with GoldDragon about the Weave and/or Shadow Weave existing and/or not existing in certain places. Well the story says that they were messing with Shadow Magic, and that the city was in some kind of twilight zone between the Prime and the Plane of Shadow - it being able to move into the Plane of Shadow in full quite possibly could have been due to the nature of the Plane of Shadow rather than anything to do with the Shadow Weave... Still, the main character thinks the Shadow Weave continued to function. -When hasn't the SW contradicted established lore? That's why I said before that it's true purpose was to aggrivate us! ;) :rofl: I agree. :) -I never took Shadow Weave to be a 'shadow of the Weave', either. I always understood it to be a 'version' of the Weave infused and somehow based in Shadow magics. I'm fairly certain it's been described several times as being the Shadow of the Weave. That is the impression I've carried ever since the 3e FRCS. -And note, if you destroy the heart and arteries, veins will continue to function a short while after. For a short time. So maybe that's what happened with Shade? -On the issue of the Shadow Weave, since when has the canon been right!? :P :D It's been right until the next canon source contradicts it. :P ;) -Don't know the proper term for the idea- sorry. "Nuclear shadows". :P They're not really shadows though. They're a result of the nature of thermal radiation from a nuclear bomb (that's the initial bright flash of light) - this radiation travels in a straight line, and is blocked (though even momentarily) by anything opaque in its path (most things, such as people are almost instantaneously incinerated). When it's all over, what you're getting is a certain area (the shadow) that hasn't been damaged as much as the surrounding area, which gives the appearance of a "shadow" on the ground. But it's not really a shadow, just an area of ground or wall that hasn't been burned as much... Or something like that anyway. :P They start off as being a shadow so to speak, but when it's all over, it's just a mark on the ground/wall - a shadow no longer. (I'm no expert, so I wouldn't quote me on this. :P And I'm sure there's people out there who will correct me in due course!)
GoldDragon 10-26-07, 08:07 AM	- -Who said that magicians from Realmspace can't cast magic outside of Realmspace? There has never been a case where this was such. As I mentioned in another thread, the Weave as a source of magic is purely cosmetic, and really has no bearing on the ability of a D&D character to cast magic. Well no, The "Weave" is more of a "interface" stuck on the fabric of reality which is responsile for everything deemed "super natural" from a ghost's ability to walk through a wall to a spell being granted by a god to a Cleric in the Realms, to a Beholder or Medusa's gaze attack to the flow of the Ether(magic energy) the Meta (life energy) and Sentia (Mind Energy). It premeates all of the Forgotten Realms Reality and its opposite, the "Shadow Weave" fills all of the negative aspects of the Weave that premates all of existance which is why while I can except a godling essence and sentinence being attached to the Interface (Mystra) I find it hard to believe that a pidly little goddling, even of "greater goddling status" could ever actually make such a interface in all reality, so it is likely that she is just squatting on the negative aspect of something that someone other then the godlings made (Maybe Overlord Ao, or even his "Boss" made the thing) In any other Realm the "Weave" would not exist cause it is a Artifical Interface and with the Weave failing causing a "Spell Plague" that means everywhere else a Mage from the Forgotten Realms goes he/she shouldn't be able to memorize spells or draw power off of the Pure "ether" without first learning to cast magic without the "Crutch" (or leash normally stuck up their Arse) that Mystra is being there to channel the magic into them. and through them...yes. I am not refering to anything "Cannon", it's a logical deduction based on the Spellplauge problem and how Mystra or lack of her causing problems with FR Magic users. If Mages didn't lose there powers everytime something goes wrong with the Weave then I could believe that a FR Mage running around in Ravenloft where there Mystra has no power could memorized and cast spells off of the "raw Ether" Core D&D does often state that the Rules of Magic and Physics changes from Realm to Realm, Plane to Plane, and Dimension to dimension and "weave" magic seems unique to the Forgotten Realms and govern by a godling to boot,so...was just a observation that being a Mage in Forgotten Realms must SUCK!!!...lol (Would still carry all spells and related energy memoried into other Plane just can't re-memorize without knowing to tap the magic flow from that plane/dimension/realms rules and physics) You know, Shar is "cute" and all (and her Priestesses kind get my "Goth fetish" up), but Shadow Magic exists with or without her, Shadow exists with or without her, and negative energies associated with Shadows and Shadow Magic exist with or without her and are actually accessible without using the "Shadow Weave"...or have Necromancers become "Shadow Weave" Magic users?
Charles Phipps 10-26-07, 02:48 PM	You know, Shar is "cute" and all (and her Priestesses kind get my "Goth fetish" up), but Shadow Magic exists with or without her, Shadow exists with or without her, and negative energies associated with Shadows and Shadow Magic exist with or without her and are actually accessible without using the "Shadow Weave"...or have Necromancers become "Shadow Weave" Magic users? There's a difference between magic that uses Death and Shadows along with the Negative Material Plane versus Magic composed of Shar's essence. The Weave isn't the Light Side of the Force or aligned to Good. The Shadow Weave can also be used for good, despite what Return of the Archwizards shows.
The_Shaman 10-26-07, 05:37 PM	The Shadow Weave can also be used for good, despite what Return of the Archwizards shows. It can, if Shar allows it. Likewise, the Weave can be used for evil - if Mystra doesn't object strongly enough to deny it.
Zsych 10-26-07, 07:39 PM	As it happens, neither of those goddesses interfere in people's use of magic. So a Shadow-weave mage can do all the good he wants, and a Weave mage can do all the evil he wants. Even when people try to turn away from the SW, Shar didn't actually stop their magic use, she sent assassins after them :)
Malkor_The_Mad 10-27-07, 11:27 AM	As it happens, neither of those goddesses interfere in people's use of magic. My understanding from the FRCS book was that Mystra couldn't stop anyone from using the weave but that Shar had complete control of the Shadow Weave and could deny spells to anyone that tried to use it if she wanted to.
GoldDragon 10-27-07, 12:21 PM	There's a difference between magic that uses Death and Shadows along with the Negative Material Plane versus Magic composed of Shar's essence. The Weave isn't the Light Side of the Force or aligned to Good. The Shadow Weave can also be used for good, despite what Return of the Archwizards shows. Well, no. I stand on the "Shadow Weave' actually being an "echo" the Weave that Shar cultivates, manipulates, and covets, and it can be used as a alternative Interface for drawing magical energies of the Shadow. (It only exists because the Weave exists, if the Weave falls there is no Structure for the Shadow Weave to "hang between" or be a pidly little "echo" of) Point was that Shadow magic, and negative energies, and such don't only come through the Shadow Weave as Weave Users cast Shadow Magic all the time and alternative Spell Casting techniques can involve tapping directly into the Negative material Plane or the Plane of Shadow for powers without "no stinken Weave" (or Shadow Weave respectively) And Yes, neither the Weave or the Shadow Weave is Alignment biased, though Shar is capable of denying access to the Shadow Weave anyone she wants (not that she necessarily would as that takes effort and power expenditure)
Charles Phipps 10-27-07, 03:13 PM	My understanding from the FRCS book was that Mystra couldn't stop anyone from using the weave but that Shar had complete control of the Shadow Weave and could deny spells to anyone that tried to use it if she wanted to. Mystra still COULD but doesn't. I doubt Shar ever would.
Malkor_The_Mad 10-27-07, 03:28 PM	Mystra still COULD but doesn't. I doubt Shar ever would. Hmm, I thought it was specific and stated that Mystra had no control over who used the weave and who didn't. But then again I'm at work and my books are at home. :(
Zsych 10-27-07, 07:23 PM	Mystra has always been able to deny a person from using the weave, or specific spells from being cast inside the weave etc. She has also changed the nature of the Weave once, so that mortals would no longer be able to cast higher spells(or at least, wouldn't know how to cast them) Shar has similar control over the Shadow-weave. As for the Shadow-weave's nature. When Rich Baker created it, he said that it was an independent creation that Shar came up with after studying the Weave. The SW cannot be used to cast any spells that create light no matter what because Shar designed it that way. Nor is it demonstratably inferior to the Weave in any real way. Besides this, the death of Shar has/had no effect on the SW because it was an independent construct. ... Over time though, some of this lore was overriden, as Ed started saying things like the SW is weaker, or a pale reflection or whatever. Ultimately it was Rich Baker's creation, and at least I think it was more interesting as an independent construct... although even Ed has said that gods who want to create a copy of the Weave(lets say, to replace it if it and Mystra have been destroyed) can potentially do it.
GothicDan 10-27-07, 09:06 PM	The Shadow Weave was an original, independent construct originally, largely because it was created for a world that HAD no Weave to begin with (Cerilia).
Dark Wizard 10-27-07, 10:52 PM	The Realms getting every dying setting's rotting leftovers is wearing on me a bit. Didn't the Realms already end up with a bunch of things from Greyhawk and Mystara before TSR dropped both?
Zsych 10-28-07, 04:25 AM	A Shadow-weave was not needed to support Shadow-magic. If you just wanted shadow magic ported over, it could've just been a casting style inside the Weave.
GothicDan 10-28-07, 02:10 PM	That's the way Shadow Magic always was.
Drachasor 10-28-07, 06:56 PM	Ehh, I don't see why everyone's talking about Netheril so much. That was a long time ago in Realms History. It doesn't matter if the Shadow Weave and Weave weren't linked back then. Afterally, isn't one of Mystra's primary goals to make the Shadow Weave part of herself? So any linking could be quite new. In fact, a series of events could follow like this: 1. Mystra creates connections between the Shadow Weave and regular Weave. (Perhaps making that heart/veins/arteries analogy quite apt). 2. Shar, naturally, gets really ticked off by this. So she makes an alliance with Cyric to take out Mystra. 3. Mystra is killed by said alliance, and because of those links she made, both weaves fall. It's simple, but there are other ways to handle the story elements too. -Drachasor
GoldDragon 10-30-07, 08:02 AM	Mystra has always been able to deny a person from using the weave, or specific spells from being cast inside the weave etc. She has also changed the nature of the Weave once, so that mortals would no longer be able to cast higher spells(or at least, wouldn't know how to cast them) Shar has similar control over the Shadow-weave. As for the Shadow-weave's nature. When Rich Baker created it, he said that it was an independent creation that Shar came up with after studying the Weave. The SW cannot be used to cast any spells that create light no matter what because Shar designed it that way. Nor is it demonstratably inferior to the Weave in any real way. Besides this, the death of Shar has/had no effect on the SW because it was an independent construct. ... Over time though, some of this lore was overriden, as Ed started saying things like the SW is weaker, or a pale reflection or whatever. Ultimately it was Rich Baker's creation, and at least I think it was more interesting as an independent construct... although even Ed has said that gods who want to create a copy of the Weave(lets say, to replace it if it and Mystra have been destroyed) can potentially do it. Ah, Info assimilated So the Weave could potentially collapse around the Shadow Weave without taking the Shadow Weave down with it. See the problem with Shadow Weave though is I like My PCs using spells like Sunburst, Hellball, Searing Light, and Sunlight...so Also with the Weave down, I would try having my PCs tring to learn to tap directly into the "Ether", or into the Elemental Planes, or Directly into the Shadow Plane, or even from the Land itself(Preserverism/Defilerism) or even the Rarer "Soul/Spirit Reaping" as power sources for magic rather then Defaulting to the Shadow Weave....which would be a "Secret" and harder to find then the Alternative Spell Power collection and use. Likewise without Mystra as a "filter" the gods can now grant Clerical and Druidic Spells without a "Leash up their Arse" or even use unlimited powers as Avatars when running around the Realms (Though Ao might be watching)...so why would they channel their granted powers to clerics uneccisarily through a "Shadow Weave?" And finally all other magic like abilities and "paranormal" stuff normally governed by the weave like beholder gazes and Ghosts walking through walls should be unaffected as 2nd eddition Trrue Psionic powers as they were just being "filtered" through the Weave as well, though I remember 3rd addition magical based Psionics was gone with the death of Mystra #2 in Native Torilians.
JRBlasingame 10-31-07, 05:01 PM	Besides this, the death of Shar has/had no effect on the SW because it was an independent construct. When did Shar die? And how? Does it have something to do with Kemp's trilogy, the Twilight War?
Storm_Silverhand 10-31-07, 05:56 PM	Heya, When did Shar die? And how? Does it have something to do with Kemp's trilogy, the Twilight War? As far as I know, she hasn't. I think the poster you were quoting was speaking hypothetically.
JRBlasingame 11-01-07, 04:21 PM	Heya, As far as I know, she hasn't. I think the poster you were quoting was speaking hypothetically. Ah ok thanks. Well I believe he is wrong either way, because the S.weave still existing without Shar is not hard to believe since she isn't the weave. Seems she set it up to run without her constant maitenance.
msatran 11-02-07, 05:32 PM	Yeah, this whole shadow weave thing and all of these 4e changes pretty much force me to quote Ed Greenwood in the hope that the designers will see reason. "For it is the doom of men that they rush about, consumed by the concerns of the moment, and forget the splendid and heroic deeds they witness along with the wisdom that they earned...and should have learned." This means LEARN from your mistakes. Not REPEAT THEM.