The Value of a Name [Archive] - Wizards Community

The Value of a Name [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Neely
06-06-07, 05:10 AM Hiya,

First of all I was rather unsure as to where I should put my question, but I've decided to make it in Magic, Dieties & the Cosmos. Forgive me if i've picked wrongfully.

Last weekend the upcoming DM revealed to us he'll be using our players character name for some (magic/spell?) event. A few questions arose in my mind afterwards.

What is the value of a persons name in the Realms?
What is the effect of having more names, meaning to be known under different names at different locations?
What is the effect of not knowing your (true)name?
What is the effect of using a false name?

Why these questions? Well, I realised there were some spells that requires identification. Lets say True Resssurrection.
So would, lets say, reciting a persons false name prevent him from being subject to a True Ressurrection spell?

If it's so that a person only has one true name on which he can be identified with, what defines this? The name a parent gave? The most commonly used name?

Thanks ^^
... and sorry if this is such a hard and philosophical question
Faraer
06-06-07, 12:47 PM Beings can be magically keyed by any name they use(d): these are truenames, in the sense of "identifiers that must apply correctly to the [being] but may be pseudonyms, pet names, or favored titles or phrases" (Volo's Guide to All Things Magical). A "false name" used by the character would work, a misapplied or mistaken one would not. Some beings have additional secret truenames which provide a deeper magical connection.

In performing something like true resurrection a cleric will want to identify the person as strongly as possible: by name(s), mental image, details of birth and/or death, personal items, etc.
Neely
06-07-07, 05:20 AM Thank you for your reply Faraer,

So in the Realms it pretty much doesn't matter how you introduce yourself, because it's automatically concidered as an "identifier"?

As example saying your name is Jane Doe, while it's not, doesn't lessen the chance of magically being identified?
Faraer
06-07-07, 01:32 PM Realmslore has various data points but no thorough discussion of this. As best I can see:

Different spells require different levels of magical keys. One's unique, secret truename, guarded from foes and whispered to lovers, guarantees precision and can allow access to a being's soul, potentially against their will, as per the truename spell and Tome of Magic. An accurate usename or proper name works to trigger/direct spells like magic mouth or perhaps farspeak. Some spells are tightly crafted to later require a specific name or activation word. A shared "Joe Blow"-type alias, which is really an evasion of naming -- such as Jack-of-Blades or Harl Amendall for adventurers, Xoblob in Waterdeep -- won't work as an identifier except for the most trivial purposes. It's not really your name: you don't really see yourself as Harl Amendall and neither does anyone else.

Your example of true resurrection, per its writeup, requires the priest to "unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method)". A common nickname or pseudonym wouldn't suffice on its own as it would be ambiguous.

Of course, names are valued for reasons other than magic. Dwarves have a whole complex protocol about how they identify themselves. Finder Wyvernspur was punished by removing his memory of his name, so he became "the Nameless Bard". And so on.

Anyone have more to add?
GothicDan
06-07-07, 01:39 PM I was actually always curious about something. In Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, they refer to the truenames of which you speak. To me, those always seemed very different from the True Names described in other sources (notably Planescape, though I bet I just don't have enough knowledge of older material to point out more references).

Do you think, Faraer, that they different 'labels'? Or that truenames take the place of True Names in Realms magical lore?
Faraer
06-07-07, 01:46 PM It looks like two somewhat different senses of "truename"/"true name": "the Vancian (later picked up for 2nd edition) concept that knowing someone's truename gave you a *lot* of power over them, if you had the right spells to compel them" as well as the more casual sense. It could do with clarifying.
GothicDan
06-07-07, 02:03 PM I think that this would also be something interesting to work into anything dealing with such personal descriptors in Realmsian magic, then. We have a lot of mechanical aspects of it present in 3E at least (True Name magic in the Tome of Magic, though personally I wouldn't adopt it into the Realms). I would say that we could ask Ed about it, but I have a feeling like his answer would be something along the lines of, "It exists if you want it to, and here are some examples!"
Faraer
06-07-07, 02:26 PM He might be circumspect because this is the kind of thing other authors/designers might want to work with, especially if 4E is imminent. But Neely, this is very much the right forum to discuss this, and it's part of what a thorough book on Realms magic would address. I.e., not a catalogue of spells, but discussion of what it's like to craft and cast and fine tune them, work with the Weave, how mages think about principles of Art, how enchantments interact, etc. etc. -- all bubbling below the surface and occasionally addressed outright in places like VGATM.
GothicDan
06-07-07, 02:34 PM I absolutely adore in-depth discussions of magical theory, philosophy, and culture. If only Magic of Faerun had gone more into this.
Red_Wizard
06-07-07, 03:07 PM As Faraer pointed out, per the 2e realms lore, the Truename was described as something you have at some point gone by, or answered to. Be it pet a name, Birth name, or name given when introducing yourself each holds significance as it can be used (As noted above) to more specifically target a person with spells.

However, in the sense of the terminology behind ones "Truename" There are two distinct possibilities to what one might be discussing when the topic arises.

Your true name as most mortals (In a fantasy setting) would know, and interpret it, is solely the name to which you were given at birth. Anything outside of that, down to even and altered spelling, is simply an alias to which you go by at the moment.

This does not mean a spell would be any less potent when referring to the name you are known by, but it would hinder the person trying to research your true"Truename" (See below)

Truenames of power on the other hand, to which Faraer made reference to via "Tome of Magic", is a very different thing all together. Every being has a true name, to which the universe knows them. This is not a given name by a friend, lover, parent or god, but one which your existence in the universe is made possible.

While you can not pick this form of Truename, you can -- by powerful magical rites -- change it, either for your own personal comfort, or for the protection from another who might have uncovered your currentTruename.

Discovering ones Truename, is a long and difficult process, to which ToM goes into more deeply than I will here, for exact rules. Your true name in the wrong hands is a potent weapon that should not be underestimated, as a wizard at the peak of his ability can with a word, wipe you from existence.

So potent is this, that no simple resurrection of any form can bring you back. A ritual is available, to which again ToM outlines, but this would be a fairly rare thing to have occur (Mainly as how would the average PC know anything about truenaming, let alone the ritual to reverse what was undone).

For the realms specifically now, whenever the term Truename has been used, whether via a computer game, novel, or by word of mouth in passing by an authors/ game designer, it has always been in relation to the latter Truename, as it's context is always associated with a foe holding a great deal of power over said being.
Faraer
06-07-07, 03:17 PM Truenames of power on the other hand, to which Faraer made reference to via "Tome of Magic", is a very different thing all together. Every being has a true name, to which the universe knows them. This is not a given name by a friend, lover, parent or god, but one which your existence in the universe is made possible.It's not clear to what extent this applies in the Realms. For instance, Cyclopedia of the Realms p. 13 says "Oghma of the Forgotten Realms is the same beings as the Oghma of the Celtic mythos in L&L, save for the lack in the Forgotten Realms of "true names" other than those provided for in the spell of the same name." Ed Greenwood's comment here (http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0112B&L=REALMS-L&P=R2163&I=-3) also seems ambiguous.For the realms specifically now, whenever the term Truename has been used, whether via a computer game, novel, or by word of mouth in passing by an authors/ game designer, it has always been in relation to the latter Truename, as it's context is always associated with a foe holding a great deal of power over said being.What causes the confusion is that the term "truename" or "true name" is actually used quite variously, from the secret true name of a god, to the modest uses of truenames specified in The Seven Sisters, to simply meaning "proper name" as opposed to aliases.
Red_Wizard
06-07-07, 04:04 PM It's not clear to what extent this applies in the Realms. For instance, Cyclopedia of the Realms p. 13 says "Oghma of the Forgotten Realms is the same beings as the Oghma of the Celtic mythos in L&L, save for the lack in the Forgotten Realms of "true names" other than those provided for in the spell of the same name." Ed Greenwood's comment here (http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0112B&L=REALMS-L&P=R2163&I=-3) also seems ambiguous.

Granted Ed's comment goes into little detail on the matter, but from what little there is, it seems entirely likely that what he refers to as Truenames, are what I have always seen them to be, and how ToM has portrayed them.

To the issue of Oghma, that would not be his "True" Truename, it would be a his self imposed one, or at the very least one given him by his worshippers (Depending on how the religious side of things was handled for each individual plane).

His Truename as the universe knows him, would be virtually unutterable by any known being (barring powergamed, level 100+ PC's), including the gods, given their present stating not iincluding the true name training feat, or ranks in the truename skill/ PrC with it.

What causes the confusion is that the term "truename" or "true name" is actually used quite variously, from the secret true name of a god, to the modest uses of truenames specified in The Seven Sisters, to simply meaning "proper name" as opposed to aliases.

I agree here. The word Truename is tossed around quite a bit, and far to lightly by most who do not understand the difference. Ultimately though, a Truename in it rawest definitive form is the universal one, and the others are simply mortal identifications given to all things.
Neely
06-13-07, 05:34 AM Hehe, reading all this makes me feel I'm walking amongst giants!
There is still so much I don't know >.<

Thank you everyone for sharing this!
captaincarot
06-13-07, 07:55 AM I agree here. The word Truename is tossed around quite a bit, and far to lightly by most who do not understand the difference. Ultimately though, a Truename in it rawest definitive form is the universal one, and the others are simply mortal identifications given to all things.

agree entirely. the proper truename should be the one which allows you to make them dance like a marrionette to your calling. i tend to have it that no one knows their truename not even them, unless it is extensively researched and a good reason for not knowing it yourself is, if you do, some one can wheedle it out of your memory and gain almost total control over you.
Joneleth
07-10-07, 10:26 AM The following passage is from War of the spider queen.

Nisviim was as skilled an enchanter as Inthracis was a necromancer. Ordinarily, an arcanaloth of Nisviim's power would not have been content to serve as a second to Inthracis, but Inthracis had long ago learned Nisviim's true name. With it, he kept Nisviim obedient and subservient. The only alternative to service for Nisviim was pain.

Of course, your DM can be making up rules.
Aegis_Chiron
07-11-07, 03:03 AM So with all of the above in mind, who remembers reading in the Avatar Trilogy, it was either in Shadowdale or Tantras, where Midnight tells Kelemvor her true name in reward for a service he gave? Cyric overheard it (I think it was Ariel Manx, but I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment). At the end of Waterdeep, Cyric implies that he was going to find ways to use it against Midnight-turned-Mystra.

So my main question is what power could it have over a god, specifically a greater god?
Red_Wizard
07-11-07, 10:18 AM Most likely none, as speaking a true name for a mortal is difficult, a deity would be nigh impossible.

Also, knowing a mortals true name, and being able to speak it with power and conviction are two different things. First, there is next to no one who even has the true speak skill, so the chances of any using it are minimal at best ;)
Paix
07-11-07, 10:38 AM Lore about 'True Names' and magic was also presented in 2e Planescape.

Among the things reorced in various products was the implication that they existed in some language primeval, perhaps hinting to the same language that powered the 'Last word' that the Tenebrous/Orcus godling had access to.

It was also stipulated that 'True Names' are not fixed but they actualy change as each creature grows and advances. Most creatures would not know their truenames and in the above example Midnight's truename as a mortal would certainly be vastly different to Midnight as Mystra.

True names are supposed to sum up the existence of a creature and serve as a unique identifier. I do not have Tome of Magic, so I am not sure how much of this has survived in the current edition.

I will have to agree with previous posters that as far as FR lore is concerned there were many mentions of that type of magic but it is not always clear to which concepts they refer to.

I think that there were also some severe limitations even if someone somehow did manage to learn the truename of another. Unless he was of equal or greater power and depending on what he desired to achieve, the use of truename magic was dangerous. i.e. the use of a fiend's truename in a spell to bypass his magic resistance was relatively easier than use of the truename to compel service.
MerrikCale
07-14-07, 08:11 PM What is the value of a persons name in the Realms?

about $12.95

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Neely 06-06-07, 05:10 AM	Hiya, First of all I was rather unsure as to where I should put my question, but I've decided to make it in Magic, Dieties & the Cosmos. Forgive me if i've picked wrongfully. Last weekend the upcoming DM revealed to us he'll be using our players character name for some (magic/spell?) event. A few questions arose in my mind afterwards. What is the value of a persons name in the Realms? What is the effect of having more names, meaning to be known under different names at different locations? What is the effect of not knowing your (true)name? What is the effect of using a false name? Why these questions? Well, I realised there were some spells that requires identification. Lets say True Resssurrection. So would, lets say, reciting a persons false name prevent him from being subject to a True Ressurrection spell? If it's so that a person only has one true name on which he can be identified with, what defines this? The name a parent gave? The most commonly used name? Thanks ^^ ... and sorry if this is such a hard and philosophical question
Faraer 06-06-07, 12:47 PM	Beings can be magically keyed by any name they use(d): these are truenames, in the sense of "identifiers that must apply correctly to the [being] but may be pseudonyms, pet names, or favored titles or phrases" (Volo's Guide to All Things Magical). A "false name" used by the character would work, a misapplied or mistaken one would not. Some beings have additional secret truenames which provide a deeper magical connection. In performing something like true resurrection a cleric will want to identify the person as strongly as possible: by name(s), mental image, details of birth and/or death, personal items, etc.
Neely 06-07-07, 05:20 AM	Thank you for your reply Faraer, So in the Realms it pretty much doesn't matter how you introduce yourself, because it's automatically concidered as an "identifier"? As example saying your name is Jane Doe, while it's not, doesn't lessen the chance of magically being identified?
Faraer 06-07-07, 01:32 PM	Realmslore has various data points but no thorough discussion of this. As best I can see: Different spells require different levels of magical keys. One's unique, secret truename, guarded from foes and whispered to lovers, guarantees precision and can allow access to a being's soul, potentially against their will, as per the truename spell and Tome of Magic. An accurate usename or proper name works to trigger/direct spells like magic mouth or perhaps farspeak. Some spells are tightly crafted to later require a specific name or activation word. A shared "Joe Blow"-type alias, which is really an evasion of naming -- such as Jack-of-Blades or Harl Amendall for adventurers, Xoblob in Waterdeep -- won't work as an identifier except for the most trivial purposes. It's not really your name: you don't really see yourself as Harl Amendall and neither does anyone else. Your example of true resurrection, per its writeup, requires the priest to "unambiguously identify the deceased in some fashion (reciting the deceased’s time and place of birth or death is the most common method)". A common nickname or pseudonym wouldn't suffice on its own as it would be ambiguous. Of course, names are valued for reasons other than magic. Dwarves have a whole complex protocol about how they identify themselves. Finder Wyvernspur was punished by removing his memory of his name, so he became "the Nameless Bard". And so on. Anyone have more to add?
GothicDan 06-07-07, 01:39 PM	I was actually always curious about something. In Volo's Guide to All Things Magical, they refer to the truenames of which you speak. To me, those always seemed very different from the True Names described in other sources (notably Planescape, though I bet I just don't have enough knowledge of older material to point out more references). Do you think, Faraer, that they different 'labels'? Or that truenames take the place of True Names in Realms magical lore?
Faraer 06-07-07, 01:46 PM	It looks like two somewhat different senses of "truename"/"true name": "the Vancian (later picked up for 2nd edition) concept that knowing someone's truename gave you a lot of power over them, if you had the right spells to compel them" as well as the more casual sense. It could do with clarifying.
GothicDan 06-07-07, 02:03 PM	I think that this would also be something interesting to work into anything dealing with such personal descriptors in Realmsian magic, then. We have a lot of mechanical aspects of it present in 3E at least (True Name magic in the Tome of Magic, though personally I wouldn't adopt it into the Realms). I would say that we could ask Ed about it, but I have a feeling like his answer would be something along the lines of, "It exists if you want it to, and here are some examples!"
Faraer 06-07-07, 02:26 PM	He might be circumspect because this is the kind of thing other authors/designers might want to work with, especially if 4E is imminent. But Neely, this is very much the right forum to discuss this, and it's part of what a thorough book on Realms magic would address. I.e., not a catalogue of spells, but discussion of what it's like to craft and cast and fine tune them, work with the Weave, how mages think about principles of Art, how enchantments interact, etc. etc. -- all bubbling below the surface and occasionally addressed outright in places like VGATM.
GothicDan 06-07-07, 02:34 PM	I absolutely adore in-depth discussions of magical theory, philosophy, and culture. If only Magic of Faerun had gone more into this.
Red_Wizard 06-07-07, 03:07 PM	As Faraer pointed out, per the 2e realms lore, the Truename was described as something you have at some point gone by, or answered to. Be it pet a name, Birth name, or name given when introducing yourself each holds significance as it can be used (As noted above) to more specifically target a person with spells. However, in the sense of the terminology behind ones "Truename" There are two distinct possibilities to what one might be discussing when the topic arises. Your true name as most mortals (In a fantasy setting) would know, and interpret it, is solely the name to which you were given at birth. Anything outside of that, down to even and altered spelling, is simply an alias to which you go by at the moment. This does not mean a spell would be any less potent when referring to the name you are known by, but it would hinder the person trying to research your true"Truename" (See below) Truenames of power on the other hand, to which Faraer made reference to via "Tome of Magic", is a very different thing all together. Every being has a true name, to which the universe knows them. This is not a given name by a friend, lover, parent or god, but one which your existence in the universe is made possible. While you can not pick this form of Truename, you can -- by powerful magical rites -- change it, either for your own personal comfort, or for the protection from another who might have uncovered your currentTruename. Discovering ones Truename, is a long and difficult process, to which ToM goes into more deeply than I will here, for exact rules. Your true name in the wrong hands is a potent weapon that should not be underestimated, as a wizard at the peak of his ability can with a word, wipe you from existence. So potent is this, that no simple resurrection of any form can bring you back. A ritual is available, to which again ToM outlines, but this would be a fairly rare thing to have occur (Mainly as how would the average PC know anything about truenaming, let alone the ritual to reverse what was undone). For the realms specifically now, whenever the term Truename has been used, whether via a computer game, novel, or by word of mouth in passing by an authors/ game designer, it has always been in relation to the latter Truename, as it's context is always associated with a foe holding a great deal of power over said being.
Faraer 06-07-07, 03:17 PM	Truenames of power on the other hand, to which Faraer made reference to via "Tome of Magic", is a very different thing all together. Every being has a true name, to which the universe knows them. This is not a given name by a friend, lover, parent or god, but one which your existence in the universe is made possible.It's not clear to what extent this applies in the Realms. For instance, Cyclopedia of the Realms p. 13 says "Oghma of the Forgotten Realms is the same beings as the Oghma of the Celtic mythos in L&L, save for the lack in the Forgotten Realms of "true names" other than those provided for in the spell of the same name." Ed Greenwood's comment here (http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0112B&L=REALMS-L&P=R2163&I=-3) also seems ambiguous.For the realms specifically now, whenever the term Truename has been used, whether via a computer game, novel, or by word of mouth in passing by an authors/ game designer, it has always been in relation to the latter Truename, as it's context is always associated with a foe holding a great deal of power over said being.What causes the confusion is that the term "truename" or "true name" is actually used quite variously, from the secret true name of a god, to the modest uses of truenames specified in The Seven Sisters, to simply meaning "proper name" as opposed to aliases.
Red_Wizard 06-07-07, 04:04 PM	It's not clear to what extent this applies in the Realms. For instance, Cyclopedia of the Realms p. 13 says "Oghma of the Forgotten Realms is the same beings as the Oghma of the Celtic mythos in L&L, save for the lack in the Forgotten Realms of "true names" other than those provided for in the spell of the same name." Ed Greenwood's comment here (http://oracle.wizards.com/scripts/wa.exe?A2=ind0112B&L=REALMS-L&P=R2163&I=-3) also seems ambiguous. Granted Ed's comment goes into little detail on the matter, but from what little there is, it seems entirely likely that what he refers to as Truenames, are what I have always seen them to be, and how ToM has portrayed them. To the issue of Oghma, that would not be his "True" Truename, it would be a his self imposed one, or at the very least one given him by his worshippers (Depending on how the religious side of things was handled for each individual plane). His Truename as the universe knows him, would be virtually unutterable by any known being (barring powergamed, level 100+ PC's), including the gods, given their present stating not iincluding the true name training feat, or ranks in the truename skill/ PrC with it. What causes the confusion is that the term "truename" or "true name" is actually used quite variously, from the secret true name of a god, to the modest uses of truenames specified in The Seven Sisters, to simply meaning "proper name" as opposed to aliases. I agree here. The word Truename is tossed around quite a bit, and far to lightly by most who do not understand the difference. Ultimately though, a Truename in it rawest definitive form is the universal one, and the others are simply mortal identifications given to all things.
Neely 06-13-07, 05:34 AM	Hehe, reading all this makes me feel I'm walking amongst giants! There is still so much I don't know >.< Thank you everyone for sharing this!
captaincarot 06-13-07, 07:55 AM	I agree here. The word Truename is tossed around quite a bit, and far to lightly by most who do not understand the difference. Ultimately though, a Truename in it rawest definitive form is the universal one, and the others are simply mortal identifications given to all things. agree entirely. the proper truename should be the one which allows you to make them dance like a marrionette to your calling. i tend to have it that no one knows their truename not even them, unless it is extensively researched and a good reason for not knowing it yourself is, if you do, some one can wheedle it out of your memory and gain almost total control over you.
Joneleth 07-10-07, 10:26 AM	The following passage is from War of the spider queen. Nisviim was as skilled an enchanter as Inthracis was a necromancer. Ordinarily, an arcanaloth of Nisviim's power would not have been content to serve as a second to Inthracis, but Inthracis had long ago learned Nisviim's true name. With it, he kept Nisviim obedient and subservient. The only alternative to service for Nisviim was pain. Of course, your DM can be making up rules.
Aegis_Chiron 07-11-07, 03:03 AM	So with all of the above in mind, who remembers reading in the Avatar Trilogy, it was either in Shadowdale or Tantras, where Midnight tells Kelemvor her true name in reward for a service he gave? Cyric overheard it (I think it was Ariel Manx, but I'm too lazy to look it up at the moment). At the end of Waterdeep, Cyric implies that he was going to find ways to use it against Midnight-turned-Mystra. So my main question is what power could it have over a god, specifically a greater god?
Red_Wizard 07-11-07, 10:18 AM	Most likely none, as speaking a true name for a mortal is difficult, a deity would be nigh impossible. Also, knowing a mortals true name, and being able to speak it with power and conviction are two different things. First, there is next to no one who even has the true speak skill, so the chances of any using it are minimal at best ;)
Paix 07-11-07, 10:38 AM	Lore about 'True Names' and magic was also presented in 2e Planescape. Among the things reorced in various products was the implication that they existed in some language primeval, perhaps hinting to the same language that powered the 'Last word' that the Tenebrous/Orcus godling had access to. It was also stipulated that 'True Names' are not fixed but they actualy change as each creature grows and advances. Most creatures would not know their truenames and in the above example Midnight's truename as a mortal would certainly be vastly different to Midnight as Mystra. True names are supposed to sum up the existence of a creature and serve as a unique identifier. I do not have Tome of Magic, so I am not sure how much of this has survived in the current edition. I will have to agree with previous posters that as far as FR lore is concerned there were many mentions of that type of magic but it is not always clear to which concepts they refer to. I think that there were also some severe limitations even if someone somehow did manage to learn the truename of another. Unless he was of equal or greater power and depending on what he desired to achieve, the use of truename magic was dangerous. i.e. the use of a fiend's truename in a spell to bypass his magic resistance was relatively easier than use of the truename to compel service.
MerrikCale 07-14-07, 08:11 PM	What is the value of a persons name in the Realms? about $12.95