Post/Author/DateTime	Post
JoeFirebritches 02-08-08, 11:07 AM	How do you folks handle your own faith/philosophy in the context of the games? I know that folks from all different walks of life and spiritual viewpoints enjoy gaming. I also know that some of us are attracted to the role of faith in fantasy settings. I prefer paladins and clerics to every other character class. That's just my personal choice, and I'm not trying to start a class war (ba-da-bump!). I was just curious whether anyone else likes to incorporate elements of their spirituality or philosophy in their gaming. Full disclosure time: I love Neverwinter Nights because of the tool kit. I usually create a weapons depot full of lovely items geared to my personal religious philosophy (Catholic), create a character, collect my toys, and import him into the game. Each of the items usually has some history or lore tying it to themes I enjoy/believe/admire. Just curious as to whether my fellow gamers, paper or PC, (regardless of spiritual path or class preference) like to do anything similar. One request--let's all be respectful of one another here. You don't have to agree with me or anyone else. Let's avoid attacking each other personally, or belittling what we each hold sacred. I suspect we're all tolerant enough to disagree in particulars, but agree on the basic tenant to be kind to one another and civil in our disagreements:D .
Alediran 02-08-08, 11:15 AM	I'm in love with Arcane Spellcasters, especialy Wizards. It would not come as a surprise that the main body of me beliefs have aspects of Buddhism, Hermeticism (As Above, so Below) and Aleister Corwley's Thelema (thow what thou wilt, that shall be the whole of the law) since Wizards are by definition people who constantly try to reach the peak of their capacities and then break those limits. Religions that encourage a single person to become more than he is are the equivalent of a Wizard's path.
MarkusTay63 02-08-08, 11:22 AM	I'm a free-thinking Christian (un-aligned) with great influences by Zen. I truly believe there is a 'secret world' that we cannot see except occassionally out of the corner of our eyes, and many wonderous things occupy that space our mortal minds cannot comprehend. I base a great deal of my Faerie lore on that, along with spiritual things (ghosts, etc), abbeirations, 'shadow-creatures'... all coming from this mysterious 'unseen world'. It appears that 4e is coming closer to my own beliefs with some of its cosmological structure. :)
JoeFirebritches 02-08-08, 12:15 PM	I usually incorporate my own faith in FR lore by using PCs of a monotheistic faith adventuring in lands of polytheistic faith. It usually creates an interesting amount of tension between the protagonists and the NPCs, especially given the cultural differences. This usually causes some interesting moments, such as refusing the healing magic of a fellow traveler because of its origin, arguments about the nature of God and the gods, and the source of magic good or bad. I like the Paladin, because, in my view, it's the easiest class to play out this tension. The Paladin is immediately percieved by many as the default . . .jerk. . .because of his rigid adherence to his Faith and its truths. The irony is that a well-played Paladin (in my Realms) is not going to use Force or Argument to testify to his faith. He lives his life by his code and hopes that his example inspires others--or at least makes them curious about the principles he values. Truth be told, my favorite player moments are fighting the undead with the emblems of my faith. Nothing says loving like incinerating Count Chocula with a well-timed crucifix. But I digress . . .:D
MaskedOne 02-08-08, 12:30 PM	My faith is a touch eclectic and borrows themes from a variety of places but I enjoy blending the concept of wizards who are constantly trying to find their limits and surpass them with people of faith in service to a higher power (who tend to be strengthened by that service). Hence, why I enjoy the MaskedOne persona that I use to bug LK and other Karsi (or clones, agents, etc.) on the boards. On his own the character, I'm portraying is already an archwizard of world shaking power and constantly improving but through his service to Mystra he fulfills a given function within the setting and at the same time becomes a power greater than almost any lone archwizard can hope to manage.
Alediran 02-08-08, 01:03 PM	My faith is a touch eclectic and borrows themes from a variety of places but I enjoy blending the concept of wizards who are constantly trying to find their limits and surpass them with people of faith in service to a higher power (who tend to be strengthened by that service). Hence, why I enjoy the MaskedOne persona that I use to bug LK and other Karsi (or clones, agents, etc.) on the boards. On his own the character, I'm portraying is already an archwizard of world shaking power and constantly improving but through his service to Mystra he fulfills a given function within the setting and at the same time becomes a power greater than almost any lone archwizard can hope to manage. Much like myself. Alediran is on the same path, at the extreme of becoming a Half Air Elemental to better serve Aerdrie Faenya.
MaskedOne 02-08-08, 03:37 PM	The combination appears in a variety of ways within FR especially among Chosen and Elven High Mages, making for a lesser part of the reason I like FR. Only problem (other than the migraine at the thought of statting it) with this persona is that it's graduated from service of a divinity to service of a divine office. The many and varied joys of 4500+ year old archwizards, not even the divinities are constant anymore.
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 01:35 AM	-MaskedOne, you bug me? News to me. You are the only entity on a power level as high as my own that I can relate to. :) -Anyway, my personal feelings on religion are never a factor when I play D&D. I'm usually playing a Cleric, so I simply have my character adopt the 'mannerisms' appropriate to the faith. Currently, in a campaign I am in, I am playing a Morninglord of Lathander. As such, I make sure to bless the party before combat, heal injured party members before I heal myself, and tend to the wounded as soon as they become wounded, and not after battle, or whatever. I also cast 'Shield Other' somewhat often, to take their damage. When we noticed one of the party members had an AC lower than the party average of 19 (his was 17), I have said character my +2 Ring of Protection, to bump his AC up. A true LG character. In the past, I've played a CN Cleric of Tempus. I made sure I was decked out in the best armor availible, with the best weapon I could afford. I charged into combat like one of the Fighters, and didn't stop to heal anyone until all enemies were felled, and calm had been established.
Jiggawha 02-09-08, 06:01 AM	It's good to be objective but my views on religion still affect the game, so roleplaying a religious character, especially clerics or paladins is boring, I couldn't never honestly represent such a character. Some philosophies are easier to roleplay, acually parts of them, like the Athar (divinity, there's no such thing), Dustmen (the part with dualistic illusionary universe), Free League (rejection of philosophies cause they're all flawed/incomplete) or Revolutionary League (on the part where the current state of existance is wrong). I like quantum physics and alternative science so I try to incorporate much of it into the game, that's why psionics are my favorite. So anything is possible, planeshifting is just tuning into other frequencies. I've changed Astral plane a lot, based on personal experiences from lucid dreams and meditation.
Diffan 02-09-08, 11:36 AM	Since no one's touched on Sanity, I guess I'll start. I'm currently running an off/on avatar FR campaign. If you don't know what an avatar campaign is, it's where you as the player are statted and thrown into the fantasy setting. Loads of fun and something we do in between campaigns or if someone doens't prepared for his/her campaign, basically a 1 night story or quest. With that in mind, I'm staring to use the rules based on Sanity checks found here- http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/campaigns/sanity.htm and in the Unearthed Arcana supplement. It represents something few people use or talk about in many campaigns. By using these rules, it can make even the hardiest of warriors slip into madness becaus of the horrors they've witnessed. Besides the Roll playing aspects, the Role playing can be quite enjoyable. Seeing your comrade talk to himself or go catatonic from seeing something particulary gruesome is fun and puts some "Real-ness" into the game. Though I haven't implimented yet, I'm starting this Monday and I'll let you know how things go. As for Religion, I'm with you on usually playing Paladins and Clerics. Alot of my Christianity goes into the character, usually because the deity I seem to always pick is Tyr/Heironeous (a very crusader-like christian ;)). Though I role play them somewhat differently, the ideology and gaming style are fairly similar. Usually buffing my allies and myself then flying into battle and healing allies last. If given the choice to smite an enemy or lay on hands/heal an ally, I usually smite because in that role, dealing justice is first of foremost (much to my allies chagrin) in my mind. Though, clearly if there was a deity that would best represent Christian ideals and dogma, it would have to be Ilmater. The fact that he suffers for others, takes their pain away, shelters the weak, sick, and poor and is self-sacrificing puts everything in a nut-shell. I might actually make a cleric of Ilmater now that I think about it.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 12:13 PM	I simply do not allow my personal views to touch my D&D game (unless it's a comidial nonserious game). I just play as whatever the character demands and nothing more.
MaskedOne 02-09-08, 12:32 PM	-MaskedOne, you bug me? News to me. You are the only entity on a power level as high as my own that I can relate to. :) Lazy phrasing on my part and well until recently monitoring and if necessary containing the Karsi was part of my job description. Currently we have a truce though while I enact all of Mystra's various disaster scenarios and set in motion an attempt to remove Shar as a greater power from the equation before 1385. Cyric is Corellon's problem, though Torm might have a supporting role. Oddly enough, I tend to link parts of Lathander's portfolio with Christianity as much as I do Illmater. Illmater may play the martyr but the promise of rebirth and something better to come which I normally consider more critically important within Christianity has more ties to the Morninglord than it does to Illmater. Christ's suffering was within a set time limit so that he could change the face of reality. Illmatyr just suffers eternally.
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 12:36 PM	Lazy phrasing on my part and well until recently monitoring and if necessary containing the Karsi was part of my job description. -I miss the days when the most worrysome thing we had to deal with was a rogue clone popping up every now and then...Memories...:( -Anyway, I notice that a lot of people seem to have 'trouble' seperating their own personal beliefs from the game. Why is this?
XHereticX 02-09-08, 12:37 PM	-Anyway, I notice that a lot of people seem to have 'trouble' seperating their own personal beliefs from the game. Why is this? When people get too caught up in doctrine, they can sometimes forget what it is like to think outside of the box, and as a result the size of their imaginative capabilities shrinks. That is why that in most cases the best creative writers and artists lived more chaotic and free-thinking lives.
MaskedOne 02-09-08, 12:46 PM	-Anyway, I notice that a lot of people seem to have 'trouble' seperating their own personal beliefs from the game. Why is this? Depends on the person. I keep my faith separate largely from much to do with FR in part because little in FR accurately reflects it (Christian analogs don't help me much) and partly because I'm having a field day with agents of Lady Magic. I do tend to portray a semi-consistent mix of arcane ambition and service (or in some cases acknowledgement and respect with less spiritual characters) to a power greater than oneself for a variety of reasons.
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 12:59 PM	When people get too caught up in doctrine, they can sometimes forget what it is like to think outside of the box, and as a result the size of their imaginative capabilities shrinks. That is why that in most cases the best creative writers and artists lived more chaotic and free-thinking lives. -Plenty of people who I personally know are creative individuals have pretty much stated that they play their characters through the lens of their own personal beliefs.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 01:12 PM	-Plenty of people who I personally know are creative individuals have pretty much stated that they play their characters through the lens of their own personal beliefs. Ahh, but I was speaking of those who take doctrine as it is, not as individuals to apply it. Many great writers use their own personal beliefs and a springboard for creativity, and could possibly go further. Oftentimes it is not that they are not capable of parting with themselves, but that they are not willing to. Personally, I believe there is greater potential there.
Diffan 02-09-08, 02:02 PM	Oddly enough, I tend to link parts of Lathander's portfolio with Christianity as much as I do Illmater. Illmater may play the martyr but the promise of rebirth and something better to come which I normally consider more critically important within Christianity has more ties to the Morninglord than it does to Illmater. Christ's suffering was within a set time limit so that he could change the face of reality. Illmatyr just suffers eternally. Nothing odd about it. I was going to say Lathander/Ilmater myself but I was going for a single deity yet they both have strong correlations with the Christian faith. I like them both and they represent different views and styles of the same whole. All in all, it's more of a blend between the two and your points are well taken. :)
JoeFirebritches 02-09-08, 02:05 PM	XHereticX, you make an interesting argument: "When people get too caught up in doctrine, they can sometimes forget what it is like to think outside of the box, and as a result the size of their imaginative capabilities shrinks. That is why that in most cases the best creative writers and artists lived more chaotic and free-thinking lives." I think there are some fairly powerful examples that contradict the argument. J.R. R. Tolkein is probably chief among them. Tolkien drew pretty extensively from his Catholic faith in his writings (anyone interested should look at his published letters), yet I think you'd be hard-pressed to point to anyone who has done more to shape fantasy as we know it. Let's face it, most fantasy writing takes place in the shadow of Tolkein's work. We can also look at folks who are motivated more by philosophy than identification with a particular creed. Terry Pratchett is a humanist, and his Discworld tales bear out his own feelings with regards to afterlife, religion, etc. Even folks who consider themselves electic or innovative spiritually define their art and their lives through their chosen philosophies. Those philosophies usually form a personal doctrine, which, while not formulated for mass consumption, is usually no less binding on the individual. It is true that dogma is usually defined as a body of doctrines set forth by a religion. It can also mean an authoritative principle or belief, especially considered to be absolutely true. Most of us, regardless of spiritual or philosophical path, have those. I enjoy using my own personal perspectives in the game because they tie me more deeply to the character. While I enjoy creating the Doctor Doom type despot from time to time, I usually have the most fun with characters walking a similar path. I can appreciate that others prefer not to do so. For myself, it's merely something that adds to my enjoyment of the game. Thanks for the interesting post.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 02:16 PM	Yeah, Tolkien was a pretty hardcore Catholic. This is evident from his use of swarthy men as villains to his assertion that the stars were little lights in the sky. He even refered to magic only as the work of Sauron/Morgoth and refered to the powers of the Vala, Maia, and elves as something separate. Oh yes, personal doctrine (and I do have one, though it changes quite often) can be an excellent catalyst for inspiration, and has been proven throughout history. However, there is a difference between using your ideals as inspiration and imposing your ideals upon inspiration. Unfortunatly Tolkien was a bit of the latter and as much as I enjoyed LoTR I think there were certain elements that could have done far better without the Catholic bias. Tolkien's original inspiration was from old pagan myths, something totally different from his own inherent beliefs, and I think that it is these elements more then any others that shows Tolkien's creativity and ability to adapt. Tolkien subtly melded his beliefs into an unorthodox system and the result was a masterpiece. So Tolkien overall would stand as an example of the former. However, this is a great difference from an individual that takes a world such as the FR and stamps monotheism and Catholic/conservative ideas all over a setting that espouses Libertarianism, intense magic, and humanlike gods. You can have your doctrine, but you shoudn't let it overtake you and prevent yourself from looking at different colors of the spectrum.
JoeFirebritches 02-09-08, 04:13 PM	[QUOTE=XHereticX;15050226]Yeah, Tolkien was a pretty hardcore Catholic. This is evident from his use of swarthy men as villains to his assertion that the stars were little lights in the sky. He even refered to magic only as the work of Sauron/Morgoth and refered to the powers of the Vala, Maia, and elves as something separate. QUOTE] XHeretic, I'm sure you didn't mean the above the way it sounds. As a swarthy Catholic (Eastern Rite), I'm pretty sure it's not a fair depiction of the Catholic creed. Keep in mind, each of us has dearly held beliefs that drive the rest of the world bug----. Let's agree to disagree without characterizing each other's beliefs. That being said, has anyone had former fellow gamers leave the party over philosophical/theological differences? I remember a passage from Elaine Cunningham's Thornhold (great novel, though I was rooting for Algorind) in which Danillo Than stated that he could not continue his friendship with an old friend who'd become a cleric or paladin because of the change this wrought in his friend. Has anyone had a party break up over the PC's differences? How about your own gaming groups? Anyone leave the fold over "religion"--whether FR mythology or personal creed?
Charles Phipps 02-09-08, 08:44 PM	I was about to say something about incorporating Catholic Myths and idealogy into the Triad, Ao, and other issues. Then I realized.... No, I really don't incorporate it into the setting all that much. I guess it boils down to it being just a game to me. It's not something that I can make a lifestyle out of or anything deeply spiritual or meaningful to me. The gods of FR are old friends from books but not something I can really draw day to day life from because well, they're fiction. Friends from fiction and lovable entertainment but I set the world down when I close the book. Now if we were discussing STAR WARS :devil: ...
XHereticX 02-09-08, 09:41 PM	XHeretic, I'm sure you didn't mean the above the way it sounds. As a swarthy Catholic (Eastern Rite), I'm pretty sure it's not a fair depiction of the Catholic creed. Keep in mind, each of us has dearly held beliefs that drive the rest of the world bug----. Let's agree to disagree without characterizing each other's beliefs. Hey, my grandmother's of the same creed you are (Eastern Catholic, or maybe she's a Nestorian, I'm not sure). I mean no offense and am sorry if you took it that way. I don't mind your incorperation of Christian beliefs Charles. You blended them in a style that lets you know the Catholic element is there yet still allow the deities to retain their distinctive flair, I like it.
Charles Phipps 02-09-08, 10:32 PM	Thanks XHeretic. My main thought was simple. D&D should be like Gaiman's Sandman or Hellblazer. It's a cultural hodgepodge meant to entertain. Thor is there, so is Eli the Fluffy Cloud God, Asmodeus (Satan) with his fallen angels, plus the generic evil spirits (Demons), and Lovecraftian monsters of The Far Realm. Really, I felt it was somewhat silly we've got Satan in Hell but not ANY sort of God at the top of Mount Celestia. In FR-it's Tyr, while in Greyhawk and other Realms, I use Bahamut. Plus, for your generic Monotheistic, "God of Gods" you have Ao who is decidedly removed and distant than a personal god.
JoeFirebritches 02-09-08, 10:41 PM	XHereticX--no harm no foul. We're cool. Star Wars, is, of course, another thing entirely . . .Except the freaking midichlorians. I refuse to believe that the Force is a cosmic yeast infection. As for incorporating the actual cosmology, I usually create a monotheistic faith to compete with the established gods and raise a little ruckus. Or, if I'm being playful, I import Aslan from Narnia, jack up the stats, and go to work. Hey, it's all about communing with your inner child . . . :)
Charles Phipps 02-09-08, 10:45 PM	Well, for Aslan, we have Nobanion. But there's plenty of monotheistic gods already in the Realms. Ao, for example is a prime candidate. However, Cyric is also monotheistic to his clergy according to some interpretations from his faithful.
Charles Phipps 02-09-08, 10:51 PM	Yes, there's always room for this. Crystal Dragon Jesus (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/CrystalDragonJesus) Fluffy Cloud Heaven is another trope.
Lord Karsus 02-09-08, 10:58 PM	Has anyone had a party break up over the PC's differences? How about your own gaming groups? Anyone leave the fold over "religion"--whether FR mythology or personal creed?[/B] -I had a Cleric get into an argument with another Cleric who was in the party about which Deity's Plane we were going to Plane Shift to. That's about it.
XHereticX 02-09-08, 11:27 PM	XHereticX--no harm no foul. We're cool. Star Wars, is, of course, another thing entirely . . .Except the freaking midichlorians. I refuse to believe that the Force is a cosmic yeast infection. As for incorporating the actual cosmology, I usually create a monotheistic faith to compete with the established gods and raise a little ruckus. Or, if I'm being playful, I import Aslan from Narnia, jack up the stats, and go to work. Hey, it's all about communing with your inner child . . . :) I am not completely against the idea of establishing a monotheistic faith on Faerun. As long as it dosen't advertise a real-world religion too closely like certain elements of Kara-Tur do and retains certain fatastical properties, I am cool with it.:cool:
MarkusTay63 02-09-08, 11:34 PM	Years ago I was playing in an RPG that took place in an alternate Earth, which had the medieval Catholic Church with all it's good/badness. The Knight was mortally wounded in a fight, and I went to Heal him - the only problem was that I was playing a Voila (Priestess of Odin), and the knight was a Templar! The GM did a LOT of die-rolling with an evil grin, then looked disappointed, and told me the sky grew dark and rumbled a bit, but the Knight was healed. I don't even want to know what would have happened if I wasn't successful - I didn't exactly want to bring down Ragnarok on us. :P I really loved that settting, so based on RW history, but with the fantasy element layed on top of it.
Storm_Silverhand 02-10-08, 01:33 AM	Heya, Very interesting this thread... :) As for me, I try to avoid (and I'm going to be blatant here) incorporating overtly Judeo-Christian symbolism in the Realms and my homebrew DnD gaming worlds. It's completely out of place, as far as I'm concerned. On the other hand, the novel I'm ostensibly working on at the moment does have overt symbolism... The evil Church is based on the look and feel and some of the teachings of the Roman Catholic Church - the truth behind the church is that is was founded by a former Deva (a servant of the deities who were behind the actual creation of the world) who was corrupted by an ancient and evil entity (the evil counterpart to the primary creator deity). The vast majority of people who adhere to the religion are good but misguided, including many of the priests... But at the top of the totem pole, the Imperial Prince (Pope) and high level clergy are all corrupted. The main aim of their god (the former Deva, named Zeth) is to hunt down and kill the very few remaining followers of the original deities, which will weaken them enough that Zeth and his hosts of Angels can then ensure the deaths of those deities. It is supposed to be an allegorical tale about the evils of extremism and blind unquestioning adherence to religious dogma... But I'm sure it will give offense to some Christians who read it. As for sanity, my characters regularly go insane, sometimes to the point where they become unplayable - but usually they get fixed. Heal works on insanity in our games, though I'm sure that's really only supposed to be magically induced insanity. Sometimes it's been bad enough that divine intervention is needed... otherwise the game would end. (Happens more in the one on one games I play with my partner than in the group games we play.) @Diffan - Avatar campaigns are fun. :D @Charles Phipps - I hate to tell you, but Christian symbolism as well as out right dogma is all through out your portrayal of the Triad in your Gods thread. And damn you for bringing up that TV Tropes site again!! :P :D :P ;)
Charles Phipps 02-10-08, 02:03 AM	As for me, I try to avoid (and I'm going to be blatant here) incorporating overtly Judeo-Christian symbolism in the Realms and my homebrew DnD gaming worlds. It's completely out of place, as far as I'm concerned. And for your group, I'm sure it is. However, I can't really rationalize it at my table In an environment with the Egyptian pantheon, Nordic gods, Green Sune, and a God name AO then there's no reason not to pilfer Christianity. Different strokes for different folks. And I still want to read your book, S_SH! (I suspect that in Storm's hands, her own RL feelings are different from my own RL experiences and those do coat our choices) @Charles Phipps - I hate to tell you, but Christian symbolism as well as out right dogma is all through out your portrayal of the Triad in your Gods thread. And damn you for bringing up that TV Tropes site again!! :P :D :P ;) True, but it's only a game is what I'm saying. I'm not making a religious point or anything. It's just a game.
Reneshat 02-10-08, 05:01 AM	The majority of the time I do not play any characters that actually mirror my beliefs. However, I will play characters, if not fully based on my beliefs, heavily influenced by them. I often find these times more fulfilling than others, where most of the time it's just a game, these times it allows me to truly role-play out and wrestle with various struggles and conflicts, making hard choices, and in the end I feel a certain satisfaction or guilt with the decision made, even if it's only a game. I also will play characters that have some root in an aspect of my operating philosophy if not my beliefs per say. For example, I played a cleric of Vathris in a Greyhawk game. Vathris is a god of fatalism, anguish, and lost causes. I played him as LN with a strong pragmatic bent, the ends justify the means. The result had a firm root in my philosophy, but wound up having no correlation with my beliefs. Still my personal beliefs have shaded my view of gaming, if not necessarily how I play. Ilmater is my favorite god for this reason. My personality and more functional philosophy have done the same, resulting in the Red Knight, taking a place right up there with Ilmater. However, I have yet to play a follower of either, or even a character that had a personal opinion really on either the few times I have had a chance to play in the Realms. When it comes to sanity, I have played multiple character that had a tenuous hold on sanity. No one that gibber to themselves, but character that are a little (or more) emotionally or psychologically unstable. The way I look at it, getting yourself nearly killed over and over again for money, fame, or whatever reason has to have a draw to people on the edge.
Charles Phipps 02-10-08, 06:29 AM	Storm Silverhand is unlikely to care for my Lathander as well.
XHereticX 02-10-08, 03:42 PM	Heya, As for sanity, my characters regularly go insane, sometimes to the point where they become unplayable - but usually they get fixed. Heal works on insanity in our games, though I'm sure that's really only supposed to be magically induced insanity. Sometimes it's been bad enough that divine intervention is needed... otherwise the game would end. (Happens more in the one on one games I play with my partner than in the group games we play.) A little too much Lovecraft for you:P I agree however, that Christianity seems out of place in a fantasy setting based upon pagan mythology. However, a creative DM can find multiple ways to create interesting and complex montheistic religions that may possibly reflect certain christian aspects without blatantly displaying it. Personally, I think that if your going to borrow from Christianity, try using inspiration from more Esoteric groups like the Rosencroits, the Hermanics, and the Gnostics. Christianity with more complex spiritual and arcane themes. They make good secret cults and societies in a game.
Lord Karsus 02-10-08, 03:51 PM	I agree however, that Christianity seems out of place in a fantasy setting based upon pagan mythology. However, a creative DM can find multiple ways to create interesting and complex montheistic religions that may possibly reflect certain christian aspects without blatantly displaying it. -Not necessarily. As the situation Zanz was explaining, a large monotheistic church seeking to stomp the spread of other faiths is a great basis for a fantasy game- not necessarily the Realms, but in other homebrews. And, if the church is run secretly by evil? Fuggetaboutit.
Charles Phipps 02-10-08, 03:53 PM	What it boils down to it is the Realms is already a fusion of Christianity/paganism (and other sources of). While the gods are pagan, the concept of crusading knights working to stamp out evil in the name of a large church plus fighting devils is Christian. Like I said, the Realms are a Cultural Soup.
XHereticX 02-10-08, 04:47 PM	What it boils down to it is the Realms is already a fusion of Christianity/paganism (and other sources of). While the gods are pagan, the concept of crusading knights working to stamp out evil in the name of a large church plus fighting devils is Christian. Like I said, the Realms are a Cultural Soup. Crusaders give me allergies:P , but I admit you're correct in that. Like I said, the incorperation of certain Christian elements is not unpleasant to me as long as it dosen't stretch too far. Karsus: Not at all true. The group could just be a regional power or a more underground movement, not necessarily having to be a large and widespread organization. Also, whoever said a monotheistic group in the Realms would have to decisively try to stamp out other religions. It could be like the Adama in The Golden Water, where they believe all religions are a part of their religion. Or they really do want to stamp out all other religions and do all that new-world order crap, but they do it secretly, like the Masons.
Lord Karsus 02-10-08, 04:49 PM	Karsus: Not at all true. The group could just be a regional power or a more underground movement, not necessarily having to be a large and widespread organization. Also, whoever said a monotheistic group in the Realms would have to decisively try to stamp out other religions. It could be like the Adama in The Golden Water, where they believe all religions are a part of their religion. Or they really do want to stamp out all other religions and do all that new-world order crap, but they do it secretly, like the Masons. -Which is why I said not necessarily in the Realms, because none of those plot lines exist, officially. They easily can, if a DM takes them up, however. But, as far as we know, the Adama aren't secretly controlled by evil, aren't overtly or covertly trying to destroy other religions/deities, etc.
XHereticX 02-10-08, 04:52 PM	-Which is why I said not necessarily in the Realms, because none of those plot lines exist, officially. They easily can, if a DM takes them up, however. But, as far as we know, the Adama aren't secretly controlled by evil, aren't overtly or covertly trying to destroy other religions/deities, etc. No they don't, but they're your Realms, and they really aren't that difficult to fit in if you know how. Also, who says that isn't the Adama's true purpose, we don't know that...;) Innovation is what you make it, and so is grougnardise.:)
Lord Karsus 02-10-08, 04:56 PM	No they don't, but they're your Realms, and they really aren't that difficult to fit in if you know how. Also, who says that isn't the Adama's true purpose, we don't know that...;) Innovation is what you make it, and so is grougnardise.:) -I'm arguing that it a monothestic behemoth like that could have a place in fantasy. You're the one who said it didn't. -Grougnardise isn't a word, either.
XHereticX 02-10-08, 04:57 PM	-I'm arguing that it a monothestic behemoth like that could have a place in fantasy. You're the one who said it didn't. -Grougnardise isn't a word, either. 1. Well then we're in agreement. I also think many elements of it can exist in the Realms, and you don't. So don't try to avoid the topic. 2. Consiter it internet slang.
Lord Karsus 02-10-08, 05:02 PM	1. Well then we're in agreement. I also think many elements of it can exist in the Realms, and you don't. So don't try to avoid the topic. -That much is true. Tell me, how is it you think this when, "I agree however, that Christianity seems out of place in a fantasy setting based upon pagan mythology". 2. Consiter it internet slang. -It's not even that. It's a made up word/mispelling that Ubbergeek uses ad nauseum.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-10-08, 07:01 PM	How do you folks handle your own faith/philosophy in the context of the games? For me, it's simple. My personal beliefs have little if anything to do with the beliefs that my characters have. I do tend to play mainly good characters, but beyond that, I like to play characters who have all sorts of philosophies. Some are very "religious" in the worldly sense. Others have more casual relationships with the gods (if they have that at all). I enjoy playing characters who use divine magic, but I'm not a religious person in real life (at least, not in the sense that most people would define "religious";) ).
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-10-08, 07:17 PM	By the way, I think Judaism and Christianity can be sources that are just as rich in ideas for a fantasy setting as any other religion. I'll admit, I've purloined some names out of the Old Testament for characters before--some of them are quite bizarre (but beautiful).
18DELTA 02-11-08, 12:43 AM	2. Consiter it internet slang. -Its uber slang.;) 18DELTA:)
Lord Karsus 02-11-08, 12:50 AM	-Its uber slang.;) 18DELTA:) -Ubergeek is someone else. This is Ubbergeek we're talking about, not Ubergeek.
Reneshat 02-11-08, 03:02 AM	By the way, I think Judaism and Christianity can be sources that are just as rich in ideas for a fantasy setting as any other religion. I'll admit, I've purloined some names out of the Old Testament for characters before--some of them are quite bizarre (but beautiful). Which reminds me, you play one Jewish paladin, and your friends never let you live it down. Personally I think South Park is to blame for that. "Jews can't be Paladins." - Cartman
Charles Phipps 02-11-08, 03:08 AM	The obvious retort when someone says "Jews can't be Paladins" Is to pull your holy avenger, slash into the guy, and then say in a stone cold voice "No, :censored: we're called Judges." Zealots is also acceptable.
Lord Karsus 02-11-08, 03:38 AM	Which reminds me, you play one Jewish paladin, and your friends never let you live it down. Personally I think South Park is to blame for that. "Jews can't be Paladins." - Cartman :: Sigh :: -The truth is revealed... The Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, saying: Speak to the Israelite people and say to them: None among thou shall be be Paladins. So sayth the Lord.
18DELTA 02-11-08, 02:38 PM	-Ubergeek is someone else. This is Ubbergeek we're talking about, not Ubergeek. -Oh...:hides: Then it is Ubberslang then:rolleyes: . At least his name isn't Uddergeek!!!:D 18DELTA:P
Lord Karsus 02-12-08, 01:40 AM	-Oh...:hides: Then it is Ubberslang then:rolleyes: . At least his name isn't Uddergeek!!!:D 18DELTA:P -That'd be weird.
XHereticX 02-15-08, 09:11 PM	-That much is true. Tell me, how is it you think this when, "I agree however, that Christianity seems out of place in a fantasy setting based upon pagan mythology". . By that I mean Christianity proper you wingnut:P Christianity does share many elements with pagan faith as well you know (aka. ripped them off, changed them a little, and then declare them canon, all the while tirading against the faiths they "borrowed" from). Like Jesus was actually born on Christmas Day:rolleyes:
JoeFirebritches 02-15-08, 10:43 PM	Y'know, when I started this thread, I'm pretty sure I mentioned my hope that people would respect the faiths of others. Apparently, that only applies so long as that faith isn't Christianity. I'd like to say it's been fun reading the more juvenile theories about the origin and nature of Christianity, but it hasn't. There is a surprising amount of anti-Christian, anti-Catholic rhetoric. If anyone wonders why some Christians consider fantasy gaming to be evil and anti-Christian, perhaps they should examine their own posts. I've found more tolerance at a Young Republicans meeting than some of the posts on this board. And please spare me the "some of my best friends are (insert religious/ethnic group here)." XHereticX, I don't recall anyone in the Catholic Church saying that Christ's actual birthdate was December 25th. Christmas is the date set by the Church to commemorate that event. As for the rest of your post, you are at best misinformed. I suppose I could now spew forth my own theories about the various theologies and philosophies shared here by others. Funny thing. I don't like mocking the faiths of others, even those I disagree with, especially in a forum supposedly dedicated to a game we all enjoy. The point of the discussion was (hopefully) to talk about how we bring the things we hold sacred into our enjoyment of the game (or not). If the way you do that is by denigrating someone else's faith, shame on you.
Charles Phipps 02-15-08, 10:54 PM	I think that there's very little actual anti-Christian sentiment here. Though some posters (I won't name names) have unfortunately had some bad experiences with members of my faith. I do think, however, some people have come to view the subject of Christianity as being "off-limits" or too close to one's existing religion/world view for a completely escapist game.
GothicDan 02-15-08, 11:56 PM	I'm Atheist, but with a not insignificant wealth of knowledge concerning philosophy, religion, cultures, anthropology, and the evolution of all of the above. I feel that the combination of my lack of personal supernatural faith and this knowledge allows me to analyze and project the Realms in the most genuine fashion. And I don't have any silly internal conflicts, either. ;)
GothicDan 02-15-08, 11:58 PM	XHereticX, I don't recall anyone in the Catholic Church saying that Christ's actual birthdate was December 25th. Christmas is the date set by the Church to commemorate that event. As for the rest of your post, you are at best misinformed. The Roman Catholic Church just inherited the assumption from the pagan civil religion, which marked December 25th as the birth date of Mithras, who represented a pre-Jesus Christ-like figure.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 12:03 AM	Charles: What it boils down to it is the Realms is already a fusion of Christianity/paganism (and other sources of). While the gods are pagan, the concept of crusading knights working to stamp out evil in the name of a large church plus fighting devils is Christian. According to Ed, Knights are actually more commonly found serving specific nobles and secular regions. That being said, there's plenty of examples of holy warriors in non-Christian faiths. There's an entire caste dedicated to the warrior aspect in Hinduism and a plethora of divine hero-figures in Classical religion/mythology, and then we've got specific documents of Roman religious positions, including warriors. In pagan societies, religion wasn't really separated from the world around you, so in less ritualistic religious cultures, everyone could consider himself or herself a holy warrior by calling out a prayer to a deity when undertaking combat.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 12:07 AM	Yes, but I doubt many of those Holy warriors in non-Christian faiths were riding around in plate mail. :)
GothicDan 02-16-08, 12:09 AM	Y'know, when I started this thread, I'm pretty sure I mentioned my hope that people would respect the faiths of others. Apparently, that only applies so long as that faith isn't Christianity. I'd like to say it's been fun reading the more juvenile theories about the origin and nature of Christianity, but it hasn't. There is a surprising amount of anti-Christian, anti-Catholic rhetoric. If anyone wonders why some Christians consider fantasy gaming to be evil and anti-Christian, perhaps they should examine their own posts. I've found more tolerance at a Young Republicans meeting than some of the posts on this board. Woah there, guy, don't go all overreacting there! I've read the thread through, and all I really see is solid lore-based reasons to reject importing wholly Christian ideas into Faerun, not personal objections or anti-Christian/Catholic sentiment. I think you're misconstruing peoples' opinions for Faerun, for their sentiments about real life. Who exactly were you targeting with your reference to demonizing Christianity? Storm? Well, she gave her reasons for feeling as she does, and I could come up with a few more besides. Namely, Christianity only really got a foothold in the West thanks to the cultural mingling ground of Greece, and specifically, the already-present Platonic/Neo-Platonic philosophies there. Now, there's no Greece-like area in Faerun, and unless you change the history, it's developed as a standard Indo-European culture and religion, just as Europe was. So I hope you can put aside your religion (not to be offensive) here and understand the logic. "The Germanization of Early Medieval Christianity" is a really good book that touches on this topic. PS: I mock all religions equally, if I mock any. ;)
GothicDan 02-16-08, 12:11 AM	Yes, but I doubt many of those Holy warriors in non-Christian faiths were riding around in plate mail. The iconography of the Paladin is largely blatantly Judeo-Christian, which is why, as I've said many, many times before, I would probably not use the class in the Realms at all - even if Ed does, in this case. I've always tried to characterize each faith's holy warriors as encapsulated in and of themselves, or in the case of areas where pantheon worship is more cohesive or allied, similar as cultural development would dictate.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 12:14 AM	The iconography of the Paladin is largely blatantly Judeo-Christian, which is why, as I've said many, many times before, I would probably not use the class in the Realms at all - even if Ed does, in this case. I've always tried to characterize each faith's holy warriors as encapsulated in and of themselves, or in the case of areas where pantheon worship is more cohesive or allied, similar as cultural development would dictate. For me, it had the opposite effect and made me want to make more religions more Judeo-Christian. I assume, like so many other cultures, some people from Earth came to the Realms and were able to leave their iconographic stamp. I couldn't play in a Realms that wasn't Medieval and acknowledge of some qualities of the Church is important to that. I just wouldn't want it to dominate.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 12:24 AM	For me, it had the opposite effect and made me want to make more religions more Judeo-Christian. Well, this is how I see it. While I'm sure Ed had his Knights in shining armor, it was core AD&D rules that applied the religious images to Paladins. On the other hand, FR-specific material for deities didn't have to follow the core rules, and so this, I feel, represents the most genuine expression of the Realms. Thus we got Specialty Priests and Crusaders, each of which were used prevalently in the three deity books, and did not reflect any truly Judeo-Christian archetypes. I assume, like so many other cultures, some people from Earth came to the Realms and were able to leave their iconographic stamp. While such Prime-hopping certainly happens, we only have two specific cases of it happening on a scale large enough for Realms cultures to still largely directly reflect their real world aspects: Unther and Mulhorand. I think if a few hundred/thousand Christians had made it into the Realms cohesively, and were able to significantly impact a part of the culture, it would be simple enough to pick out the area/s influenced by this cultural infusion. The most likely candidate, probably Cormyr, is specifically said to lack any overt religious zeal. On the other hand, our real world Earth analogues, the Moonshaes, specifically reflect the Celtic British Isles and to an extent Norse culture. So, if some European group did get imported en masse, this would be the only real choice of Realms cultures that would have logically extended from the germination point - which was obviously pagan. I couldn't play in a Realms that wasn't Medieval and acknowledge of some qualities of the Church is important to that. The Realms as written only does the former to a limited extent, and the latter only in the case of the Paladin. I thought you were a Greenwood purist? ;) __________________
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 01:00 AM	I am. But I also believe that you're underestimating the Judeo-Christian elements too. They're in the soup even if they're applied to Tyr and other gods like Lathander as opposed to others. For me, the removal of Torm would almost be certain if you wanted to remove the Catholic Church elements.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 01:10 AM	But I also believe that you're underestimating the Judeo-Christian elements too. They're in the soup even if they're applied to Tyr and other gods like Lathander as opposed to others. I don't see any Judeo-Christian element to Tyr, while I do see how he deviates from his Norse aspect. Lathander is pretty much a combination of Apollo and Mithras, both solar sun gods linked to vitality, light, youth, life, renewal, etc. He could also be described as a combination of Balder and Apollo. The difference, I think, is that all of the above archetypes can be found or extrapolated from general Indo-European culture before Christianity, which has Semitic roots (the Nazarene Jews WERE Christians in all but name) mixed with Neo-Platonism, Roman structure to rituals for Catholicism, and then Germanic folktale influences that were pieced on later to help in the wooing of Western Europe. So, basically, I don't see any specifically Christian influences, so much as characterizations that are common to many religious aspects of Indo-European pantheons, which Semitic culture eventually absorbed to become modern Christianity. I'm not being obstinate for the sake of it, mind you. I just love this stuff - comparative religious analysis. Seriously, though, if you see any Christian influences (outside of the Paladin class, which Torm is a specific extension of), which cannot be otherwise explained by Indo-European archetypes (Occam's Razor), then I'd love for you to point them out, since I've missed them! Actually, there's Nobanion, who was meant to be a version of Aslan, who was meant to be a version of Jesus. But being as Jesus was God, and if God was real he'd be very powerful, and Nobanion's only a Demigod, we can't really see much other Christian influence in his being. Well, and also, Ed mentioned that he's the general 'royal lion archetype' used in many Indo-European cultures. And, frankly, as I adore lions (as Nietzsche did, oddly enough..), I'd definitely remove Torm and kick Nobanion up in power somewhat to take his position.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 01:34 AM	What I'm getting at, Gothic Dan, is the fact that while you can certainly find an analogue for nearly every deity in existence that doesn't necessarilly mean that by nature it's not one. The Realms are a reality without a concept of God (unless you count the obvious substitute of Alpha Omega) that lords over all the Gods in a sort of Gnostic Grandeur and benevolent patriarch figure. When you remove the concept of monotheism, redemption of the world, and aspecific rites then you'd think very little Christian influence remains. Of course, as you've stated the Christianity we have today is largely made up of orevious religion's influence that are recognizably inserted as well (Robert Howard blatantly used Mitra/Mirthas as a substitute for what people commonly thought of as religion). However, if you want specific examples of Christianity in the Realms. I'll give the following list. * The trinity aspect of the Triad. * Paladins and Paladin Orders that are based off Knights Templar/Hospitilar as monastic Knights are different from militant monks. * Ilmater is based on Issek the Jug whom was blatantly a Christ on the Cross figure in the Newhon books. * The role of Torm is the stereotypical Roland-esque Crusader. * Asmodeus in the Nine Hells that are based off Dante's Inferno yet first elaborated on by Ed Greenwood. * The Seven Heavens/Mount Celestia which are based upon Dante's Paradise. * Archons/Celestials = Catholic Angels * Tyr is blatantly no longer his Nordic old self but an Arthurian God Figure. * The Risen Sun heresy (as detailed in the Erevis Cale books) seems strongly based upon Dispensationalism. * The role of Kelemvor is "salvation by faith alone" (a doctrine I don't approve of but is undeniable) * The above mentioned role of AO, specifically his name and the Biblical connotations. I'm not saying that the Realms are VERY Judeo-Christian but they have just as prominent a role as Greek Mythology (Sune=Aphrodite and I could go on as you have with the Apollo/Lathander parallels). But yes, I don't expect people with crosses on their shield to be waging war with Calisham nor do I expect there to be monotheism or Catholic Mass in the Realms. I merely comment that they've been added to the "soup"
Lord Karsus 02-16-08, 06:34 AM	* The trinity aspect of the Triad. -I don't think that really fits, because the Triad is an organization composed of three individuals, not an entity composed of three inviduals, as per the Catholic/Other Christian version of G-d. * The above mentioned role of AO, specifically his name and the Biblical connotations. -It has been stated that Ao does not stand for Alpha-Omega, nor does he represent G-d. Ao represents the DM in the campaign that the Avatar Trilogy was (A break of the 4th Wall, if you will). But yes, I don't expect people with crosses on their shield to be waging war with Calisham nor do I expect there to be monotheism or Catholic Mass in the Realms. -4e is coming...
GothicDan 02-16-08, 01:13 PM	* The trinity aspect of the Triad. Where's the Christian symbolism? To me, unless there's a Jesus, there's no Trinity. Then it's just a triad, like others Greco-Roman religion. * Paladins and Paladin Orders that are based off Knights Templar/Hospitilar as monastic Knights are different from militant monks. I already brought up Paladins, and if they hadn't been in core, I don't think they'd be the same thing as they are currently in FR - meaning, as I said before, they are an aspect of core D&D, not intrinsically FR. * Ilmater is based on Issek the Jug whom was blatantly a Christ on the Cross figure in the Newhon books. Can you expand on Issek? * The role of Torm is the stereotypical Roland-esque Crusader. And Paladins being core... * Asmodeus in the Nine Hells that are based off Dante's Inferno yet first elaborated on by Ed Greenwood. Dante's Inferno was based on the Aeneid, written by Virgil, a Roman pagan. * The Seven Heavens/Mount Celestia which are based upon Dante's Paradise. Core. * Archons/Celestials = Catholic Angels First of all, Core. Secondly, Angels existed before Christianity. * Tyr is blatantly no longer his Nordic old self but an Arthurian God Figure. Ignoring the fact that Arthur had originally Roman and Celtic legends, how he is blatantly an Arthurian God figure? It can't be too blatant, if I'm completely missing it. * The Risen Sun heresy (as detailed in the Erevis Cale books) seems strongly based upon Dispensationalism. I didn't read the novels, so I can't comment on this. * The role of Kelemvor is "salvation by faith alone" (a doctrine I don't approve of but is undeniable) When I say "genuine FR" and I'm referring to Ed Greenwood, typically I'm referring to the 1E version of the Realms. I've already said numerous times how I dislike the ToT because they introduce very Christian elements into the Realms, that weren't there before - NOT because I dislike Christianity. Namely, Kelemvor and AO. * The above mentioned role of AO, specifically his name and the Biblical connotations. AO wasn't the only Overgod originally, too. I'm not saying that the Realms are VERY Judeo-Christian but they have just as prominent a role as Greek Mythology (Sune=Aphrodite and I could go on as you have with the Apollo/Lathander parallels). I could write several dozens of pages, with references, quotes, and analysis, concerning how the Realms pantheon is in so many ways very much a pagan Indo-European pantheon. I severely doubt anyone could do the same for Christianity. But yes, I don't expect people with crosses on their shield to be waging war with Calisham nor do I expect there to be monotheism or Catholic Mass in the Realms. I merely comment that they've been added to the "soup" I honestly would give you credit where you had earned it, but so far I haven't seen a single strong argument for your claim. I hope that doesn't sound personal. As I said, I genuinely love comparative religion, and I equally respect (disrespect?) all religions, so I'm very hard to convince of such claims. All of the Indo-European aspects of the Realms are very up front and blatant. Lore-historically speaking, we have no evidence of a Christian religion either immigrating or natively arising.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 01:30 PM	Whoa Joe, where are you going with that? I have already stated that I support the use of certain Christian elements in a FR game as long as it does not blatantly copy it's ideology or organization. What Charles Philipps is doing is exactly the kind of Christian replacation I support and I find his ideas to be both well-balanced and original. As for the whole Christmas issue. There are two theories. One is that the man who created the Christian calandar was horrible at math and made a calculation error that set the Christian calander 4 years behind actual time and landed Jesus's birthday on December 25th. The other (which I find to have more merit) is that the Christians merely set Christmas to override the pagan holiday of Yule as to better convert northern Germanic peoples to the faith. As you know Christianity was heavily modified by pagan elements to improve conversion efforts (among the Norse Jesus essentially took the place of Thor as a warrior god defending his people). I am not deriding Christianity (I used to be Christian myself) or it's merits (which it has many), I am just contributing to the discussion with my base of knowledge. If I offended you in any way, once again I apologize.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 01:32 PM	The cover of the Germanization of Christianity has a picture of the Norse Jesus. He's wielding weaponry, of course. ;) I mean, really. The Teutons already had Balder as a significant post-apocalyptic redemption figure. Why did they choose to Thor-ize Jesus?
XHereticX 02-16-08, 01:43 PM	The cover of the Germanization of Christianity has a picture of the Norse Jesus. He's wielding weaponry, of course. ;) I mean, really. The Teutons already had Balder as a significant post-apocalyptic redemption figure. Why did they choose to Thor-ize Jesus? Personally, I think they just messed up. Now if it was done this way... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oPn2rJyyTcw
GothicDan 02-16-08, 01:46 PM	Ha.
XHereticX 02-16-08, 01:49 PM	Ha. Screw Thor, combining Jesus, Bruce Lee, and Chuck Norris will bring a warrior culture to it's knees (and maybe even convert Varg Vikernes and Gaahl:D )
Khaelieth 02-16-08, 02:15 PM	Varg's in prison last time l checked, was making a run for the Swedish border with 700 rounds and a fully automatic machine gun, while Gaahl l'm not too sure on, think he's being prosecuted for threatening to drink somebody's blood. An old friend of mine's actually related to Varg.
Lord Karsus 02-16-08, 02:15 PM	Secondly, Angels existed before Christianity. -Malach Hamavet, my main man!
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:18 PM	Varg's in prison last time l checked, was making a run for the Swedish border with 700 rounds and a fully automatic machine gun, while Gaahl l'm not too sure on, think he's being prosecuted for threatening to drink somebody's blood. An old friend of mine's actually related to Varg. He's getting released on probation this year!!!!:eek:
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:20 PM	Malach Hamavet, my main man! And many divine figures in Greco-Roman mythology were depicted as winged humans, including but not limited to cherubs, Sleep, Death, and probably others. And then the Valkyries are only half a step away from angels, so close that I'd just call them angels anyway.
Khaelieth 02-16-08, 02:33 PM	He's getting released on probation this year!!!!:eek: Wasn't he also saying that there should've been more church burnings? But for theology and such in my games, paladins l often portray as Judeo-Christian crusaders of the good ilk, and monks get portrayed as friar Tucks ;p
XHereticX 02-16-08, 02:39 PM	Wasn't he also saying that there should've been more church burnings? That was Gaahl in an interview in the documentary Metal: A Headbanger's Journey. Varg isn't a Satanist or Satanic in any form at all actually, he is just a Norse pagan that believes in making more "room" for his faith by attacking Christianity. Plus I think he is a sociopath as well.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 02:55 PM	GothicDan, Core is also something that Ed Greenwood helped define by his role as Dragon Magazine's chief early contributors. The Nine Hells are explicitly one of his own creations at damn near the very start of Dungeons and Dragons as a whole. Also, I find your AO defense to be weak, since Ao is ANSWERING to the DM at the end of the Avatar books. I won't bother talking about the Inferno and Angels business because attempting to point out the sources for the mythological ideas that eventually BECAME christianity, is just outright bizarre and unrelated to this discussion (I'm also well aware of them. I don't see the point in saying "The Seven Heavens aren't Christian! They're Zoroastrian!" Also, Tyr's Arthur is NOT the Celtic Legend Arthur whom would decidely not be anything resembling a platemail chivalric knight. Just because something originated in Celtic times, doesn't mean that the later changes to the myth can be dismissed. Furthermore, this is not a competition. My point isn't about saying the Realms are some Narnian like story. I could show you where Ed Greenwood removed elements from Robert E. Howard and J.R.R. Tolkien as well. Hell, he's even got Earthsea in the storyline's original write-up (before they were replaced in the Moonshaes). Suggesting that the writings of Dante's Inferno are also based on Virgil just because he's a fan of the man's poetic style and uses him as a guide is also really weak. I'm just pointing out that Christian Mythology/Christian Fables and their role has a long-standing history in the Realms. FYI, if we're suddenly moving back to Greenwood alone then Ao, Kelemvor, the Risen Sun heresy, The Moonshaes, Mulhorandi, and similar elements will disappear. But I am very interested in hearing some of your elements that you've dissected (the aforementioned several pages). I certainly would be interested in hearing those conclusions, not because I'd refute them, because I certainly imagine a lot of those are true. Does this Mean Lathander as the Resurrected Redeemer is Jesus? No, GD, because you've adequately proven that there's plenty others that could be drawn from for such.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 02:59 PM	Charles, I see that you've missed my point. I should have known not to try to have a discussion about religion with someone that was religious, because it always stirs up the other side. I'm sorry if I offended you, as I explicitly was trying not to. I was trying to do a comparative religious analysis of the Realms to try to ascertain which religions, if any, had significant influence on the Realms. If I had seen Christianity, I most certainly would have stated it. I did not, so I stated why. That being said: I'm just pointing out that Christian Mythology/Christian Fables and their role has a long-standing history in the Realms. FYI, if we're suddenly moving back to Greenwood alone then Ao, Kelemvor, the Risen Sun heresy, The Moonshaes, Mulhorandi, and similar elements will disappear. I do remove all of the above.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 03:18 PM	The issue of faith is unimportant to scholarly based discussions of religions and their mythology. I think there's honestly plenty of settings where there's no Christian elements whatsoever (Athas, Mystara, etc) while there's settings that are blatantly Christian parables (Dragonlance) You seem to be mistaken Gothic Dan, I don't care about my fiction having the Christian elements in them or not. I'm a fan of His Dark Materials. I can separate my enjoyment from my faiths. This is about the Realms and inspirations. Which, unfortunately, brings us right back to the point I disagree with you. Now, I may be *WRONG* in that there are any explicit elements in the setting to such (and you can certainly prove me such) but that doesn't mean that I'm believing this out of some desire to leave my faith stamped on it. Which is actually rather insulting.
GothicDan 02-16-08, 03:21 PM	I suppose I misinterpreted your cursing for emotional intensity - which sort of indicates to me there's something that one finds personally upsetting in the debate. Heh. And being as you aren't actually trying to refute anything I'm saying, yet still continue to stick your ground, makes it hard for me to believe you're trying to be impartial... Whereas I feel I've made my own impartiality very obvious, in that I'm looking at the bigger picture - that is, all religions - and only then performing an analysis of what we have at hand. And, again, I'm going by Occam's Razor. You've yet to show why we should interpret any influences that have both Christian and Indo-European influences as specifically Christian, where as I've repeatedly done the same for Indo-European culture. The fact that you're insulted by my inference sort of proves my point, too. I wouldn't be insulted if you accused me of some sort of personal bias because I was gay, if it seemed obvious to you in your analysis that it was the case. I'd refute it using specific examples, calmly, and make my case. But I wouldn't be insulted, because I don't get worked up about things like that.
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 03:37 PM	No, I curse because I'm a jerk. :) And, again, I'm going by Occam's Razor. You've yet to show why we should interpret any influences that have both Christian and Indo-European influences as specifically Christian, where as I've repeatedly done the same for Indo-European culture. Actually, that would be my chief argument. Specifically, that nearly any element of Christianity today can be explicitly tied to previous cultures (in no small part because every religion today is the product of previous religions passing along their rites, customs, and beliefs onto the next one). Occam's Razor said that just because they could come from the original source doesn't mean it's just not as likely they came from the most and easily available source. Also, while I hold the Arthurian Holy Knight as an example of Christianity. I don't try to tie things to the Earthmother worshiping Moonshaes whom is clearly a fusion of secular Medieval Knights with Celtic Mythology. Likewise, Cormyr is Plantagenet Britain having been divorced of any and all role of a powerful Church. In other words, I recognize they're irrelevant to my case. The fact that you're insulted by my inference sort of proves my point, too. I wouldn't be insulted if you accused me of some sort of personal bias because I was gay, if it seemed obvious to you in your analysis that it was the case. I'd refute it using specific examples, calmly, and make my case. But I wouldn't be insulted, because I don't get worked up about things like that. I insulted your inference? Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. I'm actually quite interested in what you have to say. I wasn't being facetious, I really would be interested in seeing that seven page report. Mostly because I find comparative theology fascinating. (I think part of the problem was, GD, you seem to have ignored I accept your basic argument that most modern day myths are the product of repackaged older ones. I thought it went without questioning and thus you may have missed my agreement)
Charles Phipps 02-16-08, 07:08 PM	FYI, Issek the Jug Issek the Jug doesn't show up much but he's a Martyr figure. Basically, when a person undergoing torture then they'd pray to him and Issek the Jug would appear on the rack to undergo their tortures in his place. All the while, Issek the Jug would deliver sermons of peace and brotherhood while being tormented. The Gray Mouser accidentally caused Issek the Jug's Second Coming and his faithful to become huge by appearing as him. Then, a crook took over the church and ran it as a corrupt con-game before the Gods of the Free City then destroyed it down to its last priest.
Lord Karsus 02-17-08, 09:33 AM	-No one is doing any cursing...
GothicDan 02-17-08, 11:45 AM	To quote Charles: The Nine Hells are explicitly one of his own creations at damn near the very start of Dungeons and Dragons as a whole. When trying to have civil, academic debates, people cursing just sort of immediately turns me off. I really dislike people getting remotely personal in such discussions. Not that I dislike Charles. But I'm going to let this cool down a little.
Lord Karsus 02-17-08, 12:00 PM	-Damn isn't a curse. Please...
GothicDan 02-17-08, 12:01 PM	It is in academic debates. :)
Lord Karsus 02-17-08, 12:04 PM	-That depends on the context.
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 01:57 PM	It is in academic debates. :) To be fair, damn seemed appropriate when talking about the Nine Hells. ;-) But sorry, was just using that to accent the point.
Khaelieth 02-17-08, 01:57 PM	Dante's Inferno was based on the Aeneid, written by Virgil, a Roman pagan. I disagree with you there, GD. While they have many things in common, I wouldn't say Dante's Inferno was based on the Aeneid. Dante's Divine Comedy is undoubtedly an allegory, whereas the Aeneid's supposed to be taken more literally, though it's undoubtedly an allegory. Also, The Divine Comedy's more of a spiritual allegory. I don't doubt it's one of the major influences for the Divine Comedy though.
GothicDan 02-17-08, 03:35 PM	Dude. One of the stanzas (the one describing Charon) is almost exactly the same!
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 04:34 PM	Yes, and one is a remake of Homer's Odyssey except moving the denoument to the founding of Rome while the other is a "Who's Who" political track of individuals amongst the Damned.
GothicDan 02-17-08, 05:31 PM	See, I read the Inferno back in 12th grade (and most of Purgatory), and am translating the Aeneid now. Inferno really just seems like the Aeneid with an update for Dante's time. Come on. The guide is VIRGIL.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 02-17-08, 08:02 PM	I do think, however, some people have come to view the subject of Christianity as being "off-limits" or too close to one's existing religion/world view for a completely escapist game. I agree, especially with that last part. Many (if not most) fans of D&D are Jewish or Christian, or have been raised in a culture that is predominently Judeo-Christian, so it is probably thought (by both players and game developers) that putting too many elements from the Judeo-Christian tradition into D&D makes the game less of an escapist fantasy. Heck, I'm the type of player who doesn't like seeing anything that is too blatantly "real-worldish" in the Forgotten Realms, regardless of what culture it comes from (ie. fantasy Egypt, fantasy Celtic isles, fantasy China). I also think game developers tend to want to avoid offending followers of the most dominant religions.
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 08:18 PM	I would object to it in other worlds. However my, RL influence tolerance in FR is higher because I consider Faerun to be Earth's sister world (if not an outright parallel history). They have the same continents and its populated by lots of people from Earth. Really, I consider Faerun's inhabitants the original Stargate folk.
GothicDan 02-17-08, 09:42 PM	Heck, I'm the type of player who doesn't like seeing anything that is too blatantly "real-worldish" in the Forgotten Realms, regardless of what culture it comes from (ie. fantasy Egypt, fantasy Celtic isles, fantasy China). Ditto-rama. Although I feel that Faerun is clearly an Indo-European culture, I don't want to see Indra, Zeus, or Helios running around.
Charles Phipps 02-17-08, 09:50 PM	I still hope you share some of the parallels you've found. ;-)
GothicDan 02-17-08, 09:56 PM	Parallels aren't analogs! :) Again - archetypes! Archetypes rock. Maybe I'll make a campaign in which ALL of the deities are based on Jungian Archetypes..
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 01:11 AM	To be fair, damn seemed appropriate when talking about the Nine Hells. ;-) But sorry, was just using that to accent the point. -Indeed, that was what I was going to reference, should the need had arisen.
Khaelieth 02-18-08, 06:37 AM	Dude. One of the stanzas (the one describing Charon) is almost exactly the same! Doesn't mean it's a remake! You're missing that The Divine Comedey was a spiritual allegory. Are we derailing this thread?
GothicDan 02-18-08, 07:22 AM	I consider the Aeneid to be much less literal than many here seem to, though. ;) And no, we're not!
Lord Karsus 02-18-08, 09:05 AM	Doesn't mean it's a remake! You're missing that The Divine Comedey was a spiritual allegory. Are we derailing this thread? -Given that the title is 'Theology, Mythology, Sanity'- very vague- I don't think so.
Charles Phipps 02-18-08, 12:42 PM	I consider the Aeneid to be much less literal than many here seem to, though. ;) And no, we're not! Reminds me of a quote (again, sorry about the "damn" reference GD). FYI---this doesn't reflect on your own interpretation, that I'm sure is quite valid. ENGLISH: This involves writing papers about long books you have read little snippets of just before class. Here is a tip on how to get good grades on your English papers: Never say anything about a book that anybody with any common sense would say. For example, suppose you are studying Moby-Dick. Anybody with any common sense would say that Moby-Dick is a big white whale, since the characters in the book refer to it as a big white whale roughly eleven thousand times. So in your paper, you say Moby-Dick is actually the Republic of Ireland. Your professor, who is sick to death of reading papers and never liked Moby-Dick anyway, will think you are enormously creative. If you can regularly come up with lunatic interpretations of simple stories, you should major in English. Yes, I'm thick. The Aeneid just is a guy killing and traveling along the edges of the Roman Coast. Ditto Sinbad.
GothicDan 02-18-08, 12:50 PM	See, we're focusing on Book 6 of the Aeneid. That is, Aeneas's descent through Hades. :)
Charles Phipps 02-18-08, 01:42 PM	Uh huh. Okay.
GothicDan 02-18-08, 01:53 PM	And my point is, without Book 6, I doubt there would have been an Inferno altogether. :) But.. I just picked up "Comparative Mythology" from my Classics professor today. So I'm going to read that and ignore my Mechanics homework.. ;)
Charles Phipps 02-18-08, 05:03 PM	Well I'm not disputing that, Gothic Dan. I still think you're reaching. Without Beowulf, there wouldn't be a Lord of the Rings, and without the myths of the North then there wouldn't be a Beowulf. That doesn't mean they're the same though. ;-)
GothicDan 02-18-08, 05:34 PM	I consider Beowulf to be a myth of the North, myself. That being said, I really don't see myself as reaching. Some of the stanzas are the same, the premise is the same, Dante is guided by Virgil, some of the various spots/areas in the Underworld are the same as those in Hell... It's pretty blatant to me, and this is actually the first time I've ever met anyone who didn't feel the same way. So, needless to say, I'm a bit confused. I wonder if the Comparative Mythology text I have will bright it up!
Charles Phipps 02-18-08, 05:37 PM	It's pretty blatant to me, and this is actually the first time I've ever met anyone who didn't feel the same way. So, needless to say, I'm a bit confused. Mostly because the Cosmology is different, the Premise is Different (it's a place of damnation and torment), and the characters are different. It's similiar enough in places but as different from the Aeneid and Sinbad. You may well be right and I'm just being dense. However, the specifics matter.
GothicDan 02-18-08, 05:41 PM	The cosmology is similar: both are 'under' the Earth, it's made up of numerous layers, and even in Hades, you had places of damnation and then more benevolent afterlives (just like Limbo vs. the Xth Layer in Dante). And all of the wording throughout the Aeneid is made to invoke torment, terror, fear, morbidity, etc. Maybe that's not something that makes sense unless you're translating it, but Virgil is in no way bringing up the Elysian Fields or the like. The Hades portrayed here is the BAD Hades. The characters, I'll grant you, are different: namely Aeneas and the Sybil vs. Dante and Virgil. But, really, Virgil and the Sybil are very similar characters - both enlightened guides innately aware of the environment of the Afterlife. And judging on how you seem to see the the Triad in the Realms as something influenced by the Trinity, I didn't think you cared too much about specifics... ;)