Post/Author/DateTime	Post
HVulpes 10-06-07, 07:57 AM	Many people have been complaining about the events of 1384, with the affairs of the gods. Since it is in a cannon book, I thought about putting some meat on the bones of this idea. Sune might have suggested a marriage between Tymora and Tyr as one of political advantage, yet it is possible she was using some of her own powers in love to make it more romantic. Remember a god is strongest in their own portfolio. Even if it is possible for Tyr to resist it he might have go along with it for the peace of the planes. We also know that Cyric might be behind this, and the closest ally with Cyric at the time is Shar, goddess of Secrets. Perhaps she knew of a dark secret and traded this to Cyric as a sign of good faith for their mission in the next year. One that would divert the power of Sune so Tymora fell for Helm instead of Tyr. The goddess of Love's power misfired by the lord of Strife and lady of Night. Also Cyric has become a sorta unoffical god of madness... what if he had proceed with gaining some more power over the element of madness. Remember the Tyr and Helm battle due to strict version of their dogma, perhaps even obsessive versions of it. I know from experience that obsessive compulsive syndrome is a mental illness or madness. A sudden burst of madness at the right moment, boosted perhaps with aid from Shar who would love to see the deities of light suffer (since there are allies of Selune among them, plus it has revenge against Sune for the Sharess affair in a very personal way), might explain the insane actions of the deities. I'm not sure this is perfect, but it does put some meat on the bone left in A Grand history of the Realms. Opinions?
Todesherr 10-06-07, 08:20 AM	Many people have been complaining about the events of 1384, with the affairs of the gods. Since it is in a cannon book, I thought about putting some meat on the bones of this idea. Sune might have suggested a marriage between Tymora and Tyr as one of political advantage, yet it is possible she was using some of her own powers in love to make it more romantic. Remember a god is strongest in their own portfolio. Even if it is possible for Tyr to resist it he might have go along with it for the peace of the planes. We also know that Cyric might be behind this, and the closest ally with Cyric at the time is Shar, goddess of Secrets. Perhaps she knew of a dark secret and traded this to Cyric as a sign of good faith for their mission in the next year. One that would divert the power of Sune so Tymora fell for Helm instead of Tyr. The goddess of Love's power misfired by the lord of Strife and lady of Night. Also Cyric has become a sorta unoffical god of madness... what if he had proceed with gaining some more power over the element of madness. Remember the Tyr and Helm battle due to strict version of their dogma, perhaps even obsessive versions of it. I know from experience that obsessive compulsive syndrome is a mental illness or madness. A sudden burst of madness at the right moment, boosted perhaps with aid from Shar who would love to see the deities of light suffer (since there are allies of Selune among them, plus it has revenge against Sune for the Sharess affair in a very personal way), might explain the insane actions of the deities. I'm not sure this is perfect, but it does put some meat on the bone left in A Grand history of the Realms. Opinions? I thought Bane had regained that part of his old portfolio and Cyric ceded it to him... Bane: The Black Lord, The Black Hand, the Lord of Darkness (Greater Deity) Symbol: Green rays squeezed forth from a black fist Home Plane: The Barrens of Doom and Despair Alignment: Lawful Evil Portfolio: Strife, hatred, tyranny, fear Worshipers: Conquerors, evil fighters and monks, tyrants,wizards Cleric Alignments: LN, LE, NE Domains: Evil, Destruction, Hatred, Law, Tyranny Favored Weapon: "The Black Hand of Bane" [a black gauntlet] (morningstar) Cyric: Prince of Lies, the Dark Sun, the Black Sun (Greater Deity) Symbol: White jawless skull on black or purple sunburst Home Plane: The supreme Throne Alignment: Chaotic Evil Portfolio: Murder, lies, intrigue, deception, illusion Worshipers: Former worshipers of Bane, Bhaal, and Myrkul, power-hungry (primarily young) humans Cleric Alignments: CE, CN, NE Domains: Chaos, Destructions, Evil, Illusion, Trickery Favored Weapon: "Razor's Edge" (longsword)
HVulpes 10-06-07, 08:22 AM	According to the 3ed Errata for FRCS, Cyric still has strife as a portfolio and Bane had Hatred and Fear. Thee has not been a comment to the contrary in any of the Realms lore I have seen or heard about. So this is right as far as I know. But what do you think about the theory?
Todesherr 10-06-07, 08:39 AM	According to the 3ed Errata for FRCS, Cyric still has strife as a portfolio and Bane had Hatred and Fear. Thee has not been a comment to the contrary in any of the Realms lore I have seen or heard about. So this is right as far as I know. But what do you think about the theory? The above are 3.5 canon; Bane has Strife... I don't buy the theory...too elaborate. It was enough that Cyric murdered Mystra....
HVulpes 10-06-07, 09:04 AM	The above are 3.5 canon; Bane has Strife... I don't buy the theory...too elaborate. It was enough that Cyric murdered Mystra.... Do you have a source for the Strife comment? As it was mistake in Faith and Pantheons and the Campaign Setting which was corrected in the Errata. Cyric is the lord of Strife and Bane has to avoid causing too much strife to avoid giving Cyric the power, like Cyric and Bane avoid causing too many wars to avoid giving Tempus the power. From the FRCS Errata on the Wizards site: p. 235, Bane’s portfolio: Cut “strife” and capitalize “hatred” p. 235, Cyric’s portfolio: Add “strife” p. 239: Add "strife" to Cyric's portfolio
Todesherr 10-06-07, 09:15 AM	Do you have a source for the Strife comment? As it was mistake in Faith and Pantheons and the Campaign Setting which was corrected in the Errata. Cyric is the lord of Strife and Bane has to avoid causing too much strife to avoid giving Cyric the power, like Cyric and Bane avoid causing too many wars to avoid giving Tempus the power. From the FRCS Errata on the Wizards site: p. 235, Bane’s portfolio: Cut “strife” and capitalize “hatred” p. 235, Cyric’s portfolio: Add “strife” p. 239: Add "strife" to Cyric's portfolio http://www.thieves-guild.net/index.php?pid=62
HVulpes 10-06-07, 09:22 AM	http://www.thieves-guild.net/index.php?pid=62 Well, this seems to have been copied out either the FRCS or Faith and Pantheons. Which I have mentioned were incorrect, as they were corrected by the Errata. The errata is like an official patch from the editors/writers of the setting and Wizards of the Coasts for things like misprints and typos. I am not sure you are going to believe me, but this is what I know. I thank you for you comments even if we might have different opinions. If it helps replace Strife for Intrigue if you decide that Bane is the Lord of Strife. As for the Theory, yes it might be complicated but sometimes battle plans are that complicated. Like the Invasion in WWII where the Allies used a corpse to give fails landing plans to the Nazis so they could land in Italy (I Think, hard to remember) in a spot free of the Germans as the Nazi troops have been moved to the false landing site. Complex, yet it worked! Especially since part of it involved having the Nazis return the body with the plans so the British could check the folds of the paper to see if their plans were read.
GreenKnight 10-06-07, 10:01 PM	HVulpes is correct. Cyric is the Lord of Strife, not Bane.
Old Sage 10-06-07, 10:12 PM	It's an error in F&P too. They probably copied the info from the FRCS. Bane used to have strife, but he lost it to Cyric back when he died. Now that Bane is back alive, he has yet to be able to reclaim the portfolio of strife from Cyric. Which was confirmed by Sean K Reynolds back in '02:- "I think I figured it out. Here's the sequence.The designer for Bane must have used the pre-errata version (understandable, as the errata didn't come out until after this book was designed). [...] So no, Bane does not have strife as part of his portfolio, Cyric does."
johnkretzer 10-06-07, 10:33 PM	Many people have been complaining about the events of 1384, with the affairs of the gods. Since it is in a cannon book, I thought about putting some meat on the bones of this idea. Sune might have suggested a marriage between Tymora and Tyr as one of political advantage, yet it is possible she was using some of her own powers in love to make it more romantic. Remember a god is strongest in their own portfolio. Even if it is possible for Tyr to resist it he might have go along with it for the peace of the planes. We also know that Cyric might be behind this, and the closest ally with Cyric at the time is Shar, goddess of Secrets. Perhaps she knew of a dark secret and traded this to Cyric as a sign of good faith for their mission in the next year. One that would divert the power of Sune so Tymora fell for Helm instead of Tyr. The goddess of Love's power misfired by the lord of Strife and lady of Night. Also Cyric has become a sorta unoffical god of madness... what if he had proceed with gaining some more power over the element of madness. Remember the Tyr and Helm battle due to strict version of their dogma, perhaps even obsessive versions of it. I know from experience that obsessive compulsive syndrome is a mental illness or madness. A sudden burst of madness at the right moment, boosted perhaps with aid from Shar who would love to see the deities of light suffer (since there are allies of Selune among them, plus it has revenge against Sune for the Sharess affair in a very personal way), might explain the insane actions of the deities. I'm not sure this is perfect, but it does put some meat on the bone left in A Grand history of the Realms. Opinions? While it is a good explaination of the situration I still don't like it much. And it will never be canon in my Realms. While I think that the Realms needs evil...it doesn't need evil to run rough shod over good that way. But overall good.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-06-07, 11:09 PM	Tyr and Helm had an affair? Interesting...:love:
Mirtek 10-07-07, 06:12 AM	The above are 3.5 canon; Bane has Strife... No, Bane has not. It has been fixes in the official errate. Cyric has strife http://www.thieves-guild.net/index.php?pid=62 That's a non-canon fan site. Nothing official
faellamos 10-18-07, 10:19 AM	ok so i dont have GHotR can someone quickly tell me the all the actual events that transpired related to this? sounds interesting...
HVulpes 10-18-07, 03:21 PM	ok so i dont have GHotR can someone quickly tell me the all the actual events that transpired related to this? sounds interesting... Siamorphe in a disagreement with Tyr over a Tethyr/Calisham conflict, moved to Brightwater. Sune suggested Tyr wed Tymora as a balance for that effect. Tyr courted Tymora through Helm aid, yet it seemed to Tyr that Helm and Tymora fell in love. Due to strict visions of their dogma, had Helm and Tyr had a gentleman's duel where Tyr killed Helm. Tymora moved to the Court in tears. Ilmater moved due to disappointment to Brightwater. There is hints that Cyric is behind the troubles of Tyr and the rest
Storm_Silverhand 10-18-07, 07:10 PM	Heya, Siamorphe in a disagreement with Tyr over a Tethyr/Calisham conflict, moved to Brightwater. Sune suggested Tyr wed Tymora as a balance for that effect. Tyr courted Tymora through Helm aid, yet it seemed to Tyr that Helm and Tymora fell in love. Due to strict visions of their dogma, had Helm and Tyr had a gentleman's duel where Tyr killed Helm. Tymora moved to the Court in tears. Ilmater moved due to disappointment to Brightwater. There is hints that Cyric is behind the troubles of Tyr and the rest Is this exactly as it was in AGHotR? I see several problems with it immediately... (And yes, I've probably raised most of these before in other threads, but so what?) 1) Tymora is far more powerful than Siamorphe, and in no way was this a balanced "swap". Tymora is DR 14, only two shy of Sune herself - Tymora is almost a Greater Deity in her own right. Siamorphe would be only DR 1 to 5 or so, a very minor demipower in the overall scheme of things since her worship is so limited. 2) Sune is Chaotic Good, which means she's not likely to directly manipulate the feelings of her fellow gods. Even if she did, it would be very unfair if the likes of Tyr couldn't resist it, since Tyr is overall more powerful (DR 18 vs Sune's DR 16). Sune is also unlikely to care for any arbitrary balance between the deities, she is Chaotic after all and worrying about the "rightful order of things" is quite out of character. 3) Tyr is the god of Justice, and he doesn't even ask his friend Helm what's going on? That is not particularly just of him - and to duel Helm without any evidence (see my next point) is ludicrous. 4) I don't believe the entry says that what Tyr thought was going on between Helm and Tymora actually was. Personally I don't see Tymora falling for either of the old fuddy duddys - anyway what about her relationship to Brandibaros? Why isn't Tyr upset about that too? Why doesn't Tyr duel him? 5) If Tymora really loved Helm, why would she complete the marriage to Tyr after he killed Helm? That doesn't make sense - if I were Tymora, and I had been in love with Helm (*shudder* :yuck:), then I definitely wouldn't want anything to do with Tyr - let alone follow him to the House of the Triad. No way would anyone be able to force me to do it, either. 6) Last and probably most important point - Why the heck is Tymora letting other people determine her fate for her?! For the love of all that's holy, Tymora is the goddess of Good Luck, and one of the major points of her dogma is "Bear and conduct yourselves as your own masters, showing your good or bad fortune as confidence in the Lady"... What happened to that, hmmm?
ywhtptgtfo 10-18-07, 10:13 PM	By now, you should realize that the designers responsible in Wizards are hit by a feeblemind spell. They screwed things up in so many ways that it takes multiple rolls of 1 to achieve.
Muddman72 10-19-07, 12:38 AM	1. That made little sense, I agree, but the way I see it, Sune is the goddess of love and was trying to arrange a marriage, thats what she does. It wasn't a power play, it was merely her doing her job that shes good at. 2. Again, I don't think it was a matter of power or a political move, Sune's too random for that. She was trying to foster love, not worry about arbitrary numbers in some book mortals came up with :) 3. Tyr was angry as could be and Helm was angry back. Besides, just because they're gods doesn't mean they aren't above lieing to one another. Good men kill each other over stupid misunderstadings, look at the middle ages, valiant knights fought to the death over perceived insults all the time and lots of good people died, same thing here. If I thought my buddy stole my girl, I'd be too ticked to think straight. As for the 'no proof" part, the entry is too small and vague to know how Tyr found out, so we can't judge him on that. I think its far more 'unjust' that Helm gets killed over a woman and Cyric gets house arrest for killing Mystra, what up with that?! 4. Tymora used to be engaged to Helm when she was Tyche, goddess of good and bad luck. During the Dawn caticlysm (sp?) she was split into two, Tymora and Basheeba. So Helm is sort of her ex-fiance, so him falling for her again isn't that unlikely. As for Brendoaris, I think that was tacked onto the Demihuman Dieties book to give it depth and it carried over into 3.0, kind of dumb. Besides, he's an ex-boyfriend, I doubt he's dumb enough to be messing around with her now or else Tyr would kill him. 5. This point makes sense in a modern sense, but in the middle ages (which Forgotten realms is based in) women had little to say about who they married and when. Tyr fought Helm for her hand and Tyr won, end of story. 6. I doubt the courtship would have even began if she wasn't at least intrigued by the possibility of a marriage. She had to have responded favorably o else it never would have gotten as far as it did. Sune suggested it, and the idea was attractive, so the courtship began. No one told or forced Tymora to do anything. I don't know, maybe its me, but I see how this could happen, especially with strict codes of honor like these two have: Tyr hears about his fiance and her ex-fiance together. He gets mad, finds Helm and slugs him, challenging him to a duel. Helm is enraged and accepts. Before anyone can get a word in, Tyr stabs him through the chest and kills him. Its tragic, but well within the realm of possibility. Lots of people dies in far more unlikely scenarios. Heck, I've seen real world friendships break up over less especially when two men and a woman are involved. Just my opinion of course :)
Muddman72 10-19-07, 12:41 AM	Oh and by the way, the quote wasn't word for word, it's just a cliffnoted version of the story and I think there are some errors. Don't quote me on that though :)
Storm_Silverhand 10-19-07, 05:05 AM	Heya, Muddman72, if I seem a little snippy in this post it's because at least some of what I'm about to write, I have written before and specifically in response to you. I don't know if you post your reply then never read the thread again or what, but I'll try and break it down for you - particularly your comments about the Dawn Crusade era Tyche. Try to pay attention this time... 1. That made little sense, I agree, but the way I see it, Sune is the goddess of love and was trying to arrange a marriage, thats what she does. It wasn't a power play, it was merely her doing her job that shes good at. It's stupid. Sune would probably be against arranged marriages in the first place. She'd rather encourage them to fall in love of their own will and not force the matter at all. 2. Again, I don't think it was a matter of power or a political move, Sune's too random for that. She was trying to foster love, not worry about arbitrary numbers in some book mortals came up with :) Except AGHotR makes it quite plain that it was a political move to balance Siamorphe moving to Brightwater. 3. Tyr was angry as could be and Helm was angry back. Besides, just because they're gods doesn't mean they aren't above lieing to one another. Good men kill each other over stupid misunderstadings, look at the middle ages, valiant knights fought to the death over perceived insults all the time and lots of good people died, same thing here. If I thought my buddy stole my girl, I'd be too ticked to think straight. Gods aren't mortals. They shouldn't act like mortals. Justice should colour each and every one of Tyr's responses. I think its far more 'unjust' that Helm gets killed over a woman and Cyric gets house arrest for killing Mystra, what up with that?! Cyric was fulfilling the Murder aspect of his portfolio, if anything he should have got away with it. Tyr, on the other hand, should have been cast down into the hells for what he did. There's no justification for his actions. 4. Tymora used to be engaged to Helm when she was Tyche, goddess of good and bad luck. During the Dawn caticlysm (sp?) she was split into two, Tymora and Basheeba. So Helm is sort of her ex-fiance, so him falling for her again isn't that unlikely. As for Brendoaris, I think that was tacked onto the Demihuman Dieties book to give it depth and it carried over into 3.0, kind of dumb. Besides, he's an ex-boyfriend, I doubt he's dumb enough to be messing around with her now or else Tyr would kill him. Faiths and Avatars (the first one of the three 2nd Edition god books) pg 44 - a side bar titled "Rotten Luck" here's the break down... Tyche was in a romantic relationship with LATHANDER. LATHANDER was too busy with the Dawn Crusade when Tyche wanted some quality time alone with him. Tyche kisses LATHANDER with misfortune and goes off wandering the planes. Tyche comes across a single flower on a mountain top, and immediately thinks it is an appeasement/make-up gift from LATHANDER. She tries to pick it, but it won't budge. Eventually she curses it and the stem breaks. She picks up the flower (which is really Moander) and puts it behind her ear. Moander extends tendrils of himself into Tyche and begins to rot her from the inside out. Tyche returns home to find Selune there, along with LATHANDER and Azuth. Azuth is there to mediate between Tyche and LATHANDER. Selune sees what has happened to Tyche, and she blasts her good friend with purifying light. The light splits Tyche in twain, and from each half steps Tymora the fair, and Beshaba the unpleasant. Do you see Helm anywhere in there? No? I thought not. Helm was involved with a deity called Murdane, if I remember rightly, who was killed during the Dawn Crusade. 5. This point makes sense in a modern sense, but in the middle ages (which Forgotten realms is based in) women had little to say about who they married and when. Tyr fought Helm for her hand and Tyr won, end of story. Now this is simply ridiculous. We're not talking about humans here. We're talking specifically about Tymora whose dogma incorporates SELF DETERMINATION. No, she is not going to fold and cry and go where she's told. She'll do what she wants when she wants to, and no force in the 'verse could make her do something she didn't want to do. If she had really loved Helm, nothing Tyr could do or say would make her go with him. 6. I doubt the courtship would have even began if she wasn't at least intrigued by the possibility of a marriage. She had to have responded favorably o else it never would have gotten as far as it did. Sune suggested it, and the idea was attractive, so the courtship began. No one told or forced Tymora to do anything. For me, the whole plot comes unraveled when Sune makes the suggestion of an arranged marriage in the first place. And while Tymora may have agreed (unlikely in my book), how long do you think it would be before she changed her mind again? Remember, Tymora is well known for being fickle. I don't know, maybe its me, but I see how this could happen, especially with strict codes of honor like these two have: Tyr hears about his fiance and her ex-fiance together. He gets mad, finds Helm and slugs him, challenging him to a duel. Helm is enraged and accepts. Before anyone can get a word in, Tyr stabs him through the chest and kills him. Tymora was never engaged to Helm. Tyche was never engaged to Helm. This whole argument is based on your misconception and your confusion between Murdane and Tyche - two completely different goddesses. Its tragic, but well within the realm of possibility. Lots of people dies in far more unlikely scenarios. Heck, I've seen real world friendships break up over less especially when two men and a woman are involved. Sorry, but it's not within the realms of possibility.
Muddman72 10-19-07, 11:47 AM	Your points are well founded and you were right on the whole Lathander/Helm/Tyche thing. I could have sworn it was Helm, but you were right and I was wrong. I think Sune was suggesting it to foster love and used 'balance' as a way to sell the idea to Tyr, plain and simple. Hes big on that, and it worked. Gods aren't mortals, but they all have personalities just like humans. Even in classical mythos the gods have personalities. You want them to be exactly what their portfolios say but the Realms has never done that. Tyr is kind of a narrow sighted jerk and he always has been, Lathander has done more harm then good with his ridiculous crusade against ALL evil (which is an impossible ideal), Tempus thinks battle should be a thing of rules even though hes a CN diety, Kelemvor isnt as impartial as he should be and Cyric breaks every rule in the book. On to my next point, Cyric may have been doing his job, but killing other gods is still against AO's law since the Time of Troubles, right? So he was still breaking the law, and Tyr stepped in, I was just surprised he didn't gut the whelp. As for Tymora going with Tyr, maybe she actually loves him. Fickle people fall in love too. her whole dogma is be yourself, so that should clue you in that she's doing what she wants to. The rest of my arguement was incorrect because of my memory, I read it about 10 years ago so things get hazey in that time, sorry again. Come to think of it I think Helm's true love was a goddess of wisdom and she died during the dawn catacylsm, but I might be messing that up too so don't take my word for it. Is it in the realm of possibility, in my book yes, in yours no. I respect that and we can agree to disagree. I just wish they would have written more because I feel that the entry is way to brief to draw any concrete conclusions. I bet they floatted out something vague so the readers could complain on the message boards about its flaws so they can fill in the blanks later. If so, mission acomplished :) I'm thinking there is a reason for this story line that will come up in 4th ed. The entry about Mystra's death says that all but the most powerful dieties die because of the unraveling of the Weave, so why not just pile Helm's corpse on the heap and say he died that way? Maybe Helm's remaining clergy, bereft of magic and thus immune to the coming Spellplague, becomes some sort of evil organization bent on destroying Tyr's following? That would be kind of cool come to think of it :) Bottom line is that its WoTC's setting and their characters, so they can do and say whatever they want. And if you don't like it, do what I plan to do on some of the future stuff and just ignore it.
customdrapery 10-19-07, 12:39 PM	Originally posted by Muddman72: Come to think of it I think Helm's true love was a goddess of wisdom and she died during the dawn catacylsm, but I might be messing that up too so don't take my word for it. This was Murdane a Lesser Goddess of Reason and Pragmatism. See F&P page 38. Sages believe that his stern countenance is because of the loss of some great love of his (see Faiths and Avatars, page 68.) This is probably Murdane, who was killed during the Dawn Cataclysm. According to GHotR, she drowned. My two coppers, but the whole thing is lame. Helm should be not one of the gods that WotC takes out. Marrying (outside of Sune's portfolio) a CG goddess who is known for fickleness (see F&P pg. 78) who teases stern deities like Helm and Tyr and has seduced dozens of deities and countless mortals to a LG god who is very grim is bad planning. Also this fixes what exactly? Moving an intermediate deity to the House of the Triad to replace a regional demi-goddess doesn't balance anything. Hurm. It still makes me frustrated to think about. Cyric should have been brought to justice by Tyr maybe he was only imprisoned because there are some laws forbidding the action when he was fulfilling his portfolio, but wasn't Helm? I don't think the designers throught either of the events through enough. I think they just wanted Helm and Mystra out of the way for an introduction to why the rules of magic are changing in 4e, but that still doesn't explain Helm.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-19-07, 12:51 PM	Bottom line is that its WoTC's setting and their characters, so they can do and say whatever they want. And if you don't like it, do what I plan to do on some of the future stuff and just ignore it. This is a forum, Muddman. This is the place to express our opinions. The fact that WotC will do what they want with their setting is a moot point. It doesn't mean people have to keep their mouths shut! Storm refuted much of your argument already, but I will further point out that the Forgotten Realms setting is not the real world middle ages. The realms of the gods, even less so.
SgtAnjay 10-19-07, 01:13 PM	Cyric should have been brought to justice by Tyr maybe he was only imprisoned because there are some laws forbidding the action when he was fulfilling his portfolio, but wasn't Helm?Only suggestion I've heard so far that really makes any sense is that everyone is still shaken up by the planar apocalypse, so outright destroying Cyric (especially in his home realm, which "should" be harder) may not have been viable at that point in time, especially if Shar was still lending aid.
Lord Zeb 10-19-07, 03:22 PM	I'm thinking there is a reason for this story line that will come up in 4th ed. The entry about Mystra's death says that all but the most powerful dieties die because of the unraveling of the Weave, so why not just pile Helm's corpse on the heap and say he died that way? Maybe Helm's remaining clergy, bereft of magic and thus immune to the coming Spellplague, becomes some sort of evil organization bent on destroying Tyr's following? That would be kind of cool come to think of it :) How about instead of this soap opera explanation being the "real deal", Helm is killed during the planar fallout of Mystras death. His clergy, bereft of their deity and the encroaching darkness, has a young prophet rise up with a story of arranged marriage and murder at the hand of the God of Justice. This young prophet is of course a Cyricist in Helm's clothing. Cyric by killing Mystra and splitting the Triad ensures his life, as the goodly deities have too much to do to prevent total societal collapse, not to mention fighting amongst themselves.
AffableDoomwalker 10-22-07, 11:31 PM	By now, you should realize that the designers responsible in Wizards are hit by a feeblemind spell. They screwed things up in so many ways that it takes multiple rolls of 1 to achieve. http://www.the-word-is-not-enough.com/blog/rob/images/UweBoll.jpg 'Hi! I'm Uwe (that's pronounced Ooh-Vah) Boll, and I was hired to write A Grand History of the Realms! Things were going really well until I decided to start thinking! Then, as is my custom, I made an oxymoron (see: Future history), threw in some like, romantic drama, and some, like, slow motion sword duels to the death... between, like, gods and stuff! The editors would have probably been against it, except they were paying me so much, and Rich baker really, really loved House of the Dead (he told me so!), so they decided to keep it and put it in its own section, appropriately named "Future History" gee howdy by golly! I'm so proud to be a part of this game-destroying revolutionary epoch of stupidity! Don't forget to Watch postal when it goes straight to DVD as soon as I get done cutting it in my mom's basement! And remember to buy my House of the Dead/Alone in the Dark/Bloodrayne valu-pak at a Wal-Mart 9.99 bargain bin near you!' Of course, I could be wrong, and this could just be the lead-up to a new and wonderful game, much like Baldur's Gate, that helps introduce the new status of the realms. Maybe it'll be memorable and epic and enjoyable and give me a warm fuzzy feeling. But, for some reason I sincerely doubt it. Maybe its the common sense nagging at my brain.
Sol_Odlanier 10-24-07, 11:56 AM	http://www.the-word-is-not-enough.com/blog/rob/images/UweBoll.jpg 'Hi! I'm Uwe (that's pronounced Ooh-Vah) Boll, and I was hired to write A Grand History of the Realms! Things were going really well until I decided to start thinking! Then, as is my custom, I made an oxymoron (see: Future history), threw in some like, romantic drama, and some, like, slow motion sword duels to the death... between, like, gods and stuff! The editors would have probably been against it, except they were paying me so much, and Rich baker really, really loved House of the Dead (he told me so!), so they decided to keep it and put it in its own section, appropriately named "Future History" gee howdy by golly! I'm so proud to be a part of this game-destroying revolutionary epoch of stupidity! Don't forget to Watch postal when it goes straight to DVD as soon as I get done cutting it in my mom's basement! And remember to buy my House of the Dead/Alone in the Dark/Bloodrayne valu-pak at a Wal-Mart 9.99 bargain bin near you!' Of course, I could be wrong, and this could just be the lead-up to a new and wonderful game, much like Baldur's Gate, that helps introduce the new status of the realms. Maybe it'll be memorable and epic and enjoyable and give me a warm fuzzy feeling. But, for some reason I sincerely doubt it. Maybe its the common sense nagging at my brain. :clap: :bow: :rofl: You My friend just made my Day! Again Bravo:clap:
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 08:23 PM	Oddly, I believe Helm as Tyr's jealous lover attempting to kill him is actually more believable than Helm dating Tymora. :-) Torm has two daddies!
Guardian1 10-24-07, 11:33 PM	Hold on, I've been a bit out of the loop, as far as FR dieties goes. Are we talking about the second Mystra (Post-ToT, or the first Mystra (Pre-ToT)? Secondly, the second Mystra's dead? When did that happen?
Charles Phipps 10-24-07, 11:49 PM	3rd Mystra (Midnight) perishes in a surprise relevation in Grand History of the Realms as assassinated by Cyric the Underestimated and Shar The I'm Sick of Her. It causes a Spell Plague and backlash that destroys a huge number of gods and planes.
SgtAnjay 10-25-07, 03:06 PM	Midnight is the third goddess of magic in this succession, but only the second Mystra. The first was Mystryl, remember.
Charles Phipps 10-25-07, 06:34 PM	Yes, but it's the same goddess reincarnated.
SgtAnjay 10-26-07, 09:05 PM	Yes, but it's the same goddess reincarnated.Tell that to those who went from worshipping the CN Mystryl to the LN Mystra. That must've been an interesting transition.
Charles Phipps 10-26-07, 09:36 PM	To be fair, I imagine Netheril was a bigger concern for them in the immediate aftermath.
SgtAnjay 10-26-07, 09:43 PM	If they even happened to be from Netheril. Netheril was hardly world-spanning. But the change of the goddess of magic from one that was chaotic neutral to one who was lawful neutral (the opposite alignment on the spectrum), not to mention the new rules of magic, had farther reaching consequences than the fate of Netheril.
Charles Phipps 10-26-07, 09:47 PM	If they even happened to be from Netheril. Netheril was hardly world-spanning. But the change of the goddess of magic from one that was chaotic neutral to one who was lawful neutral (the opposite alignment on the spectrum), not to mention the new rules of magic, had farther reaching consequences than the fate of Netheril. The new rules of magic only affected Epic Wizards. Netheril was the only human kingdom that used them at that time. Frankly, they were the dominant culture of the time and the falling of the sky cities plus other disasters no doubt caused more concern. Magic, I believe as it was, ceased to exist.
GreenKnight 10-27-07, 02:21 AM	About the only thing that'd make this development palatable to me is if it meant that Tyr, in shame over having killed a friend, abandoned Faerun and Torm took his place as a Greater God, claiming the Portfolio of Justice, along with snagging Helm's Portfolios. I'm sick of that interloping ass mucking things up. I'd much rather have a Realms native god take his place. Besides, it'd be awesome if Torm and Bane were on equal footing. They'd make great adversaries.
SgtAnjay 10-28-07, 02:52 AM	The new rules of magic only affected Epic Wizards. Netheril was the only human kingdom that used them at that time. Frankly, they were the dominant culture of the time and the falling of the sky cities plus other disasters no doubt caused more concern.We know spells above 9th level were no longer possible. That did not affect only Netheril. That affected any spellcasters of high enough level to gain that much power regardless of their culture or geographical location. Elves, dragons, the Calishite, any in Maztica, Zakhara, Kara-Tur, Mulhorand, Unther, the other unknown regions of Toril....all these were entirely capable of being home to spellcasters of power above 9th level spells; few of these were likely to care all that much about the fall of Netheril. Some of them may have never even heard of Netheril. Magic, I believe as it was, ceased to exist.Because the Goddess of Magic, as she was, ceased to exist.
Charles Phipps 10-28-07, 02:55 AM	Elves, dragons, the Calishite, any in Maztica, Zakhara, Kara-Tur, Mulhorand, Unther, the other unknown regions of Toril....all these were entirely capable of being home to spellcasters of power above 9th level spells You clearly have a higher view of the Realms than I. Only a handful of Epic Levels have existed in my realms outside of the legendary civilizations (i.e. outside of Netheril and Elven High Wizards---there WERE no Epic Wizards in the Realms)
SgtAnjay 10-30-07, 10:19 AM	That's fine for your Realms. But considering the magical accomplishments and traditions of civilizations like the Calishite, the Shou Lung (and environs), the Zakharans, the Imaskari (how could they have barred a pantheon without epic magic?!), the Raumathari, the Narfell, ancient wyrms(not all epic casters have to be humanoid), the Sarrhuk (you know, the ones who taught Netheril its magic?), the Mulhorandi (who toppled the Imaskari and from whom Thay is an offshoot civilization), the Nimbralese, the Halruaans, and various assorted liches, alhoons, vampires, and other long lived undead, added to the fact that the Realms has long, long, long history of adventuring mages performing epic deads up and down Faerun (gee, in every other thread people are quick to point out all the epic NPCs, most of them spellcasters, running around).....well, epic magic doesn't seem to have been limited to elves and one human civilization. Ah, for the days when Netheril was a cautionary tale about excessive pride and not a role-model.....:nonono:
Stigger 10-30-07, 10:26 AM	To be fair, while I agree with you on the basic point SgtAnjay, I will point out that the Halruaans and Nimbralese descend from the Netherese, and from what I recall, it was Ioulaumm who helped create the first alhoon, or something to that effect with Illithid. Otherwise, I tend to completely agree.
SgtAnjay 10-30-07, 10:38 AM	That is true, they are Netherese descendants (I'd forgotten the Ioulaumm-illithid connection)....which is, basically, more evidence that epic magic didn't die outside the elves with the Fall of Netheril.
customdrapery 10-30-07, 02:42 PM	The casting of Karsus' Avatar spell, which I believe was the only 12th level spell every cast, temporarily disrupted magic and caused it to cease working. I'm not sure how long that lasted before Mystra was created to replace Mystryl. Also, it was my understanding that the Netherese were the only culture to use spells of greater than 9th level and that all the other groups (elves, Imaskari, etc.) used epic magic. I'm not sure if the Sarrukh used epic or greater than 9th level spells.
MarkusTay63 10-30-07, 05:08 PM	Keep your eyes on Shar's roll of Shadow Years to see the pattern. I have a sneaking suspician that Shar manipulated the events of the ToT to cause Cyrc's ascension. Somehow, I think she forsaw an alternate set of events, and realized Cyric would be of great use to her future plans. I think the roll of Shadow Years aren't just alternate names for the same years, but rather a different historic path entirely. :eek: In the end, Mystra dies and her half of the power is returned to Shar (presumably). Prophesies fulfilled, and Shar gets what she wants. How does this relate to THIS thread? I'm not sure how Cyric and Shar pulled it off, but I think they would have been behind this affair as well. Perhaps part of Helm's duties as 'Gaurdian' is to safe-gaurd the godly domains from intrusions? Ergo, he needed to be eliminated first in order for Shar to bypass the Celestial security measures that are in-place. It seems kind of coincidental that this transpired just before Cyric made his move, eh? ;) Tyr and Helm had an affair? Interesting...:love: Oddly, I believe Helm as Tyr's jealous lover attempting to kill him is actually more believable than Helm dating Tymora. Where are you guys getting THIS from? :yuck: Does it actually say this somewhere in canon? I need to take a shower... I feel... soiled. :raincloud Midnight is the third goddess of magic in this succession, but only the second Mystra. The first was Mystryl, remember.As far as we know... I find it difficult to imagine an anthropomorphic goddess as the ultimate deity of Magic, tens of thousands of years before humans even came out of their caves. The original Mystryl probably looked more... reptilian... :88E:
Charles Phipps 10-30-07, 05:13 PM	Does it actually say this somewhere in canon? I need to take a shower... I feel... soiled. No and what a classy reaction there.
MarkusTay63 10-30-07, 05:35 PM	I'm a very classy guy. :P And besides, I have a right to MY opinions, even the un-PC ones. ;)
Stigger 10-30-07, 06:03 PM	And no difficulties in relating them to us... though it would have been more interesting if there had been a Helm-Tyr thing going on. Though I still fail to see why either of them would be even remotely interested in Chaotic little Tymora...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 10-30-07, 06:07 PM	Where are you guys getting THIS from? :yuck: I just pulled that from my dirty mind, thought it would be funny (considering the thread title).
MarkusTay63 10-30-07, 06:48 PM	Ahhhhh... Okay, I re-read the thread twice and couldn't figure out where you got that... I didn't even think about the thread title. :doh: Talk about missing the obvious. :embarrass And no difficulties in relating them to us... though it would have been more interesting if there had been a Helm-Tyr thing going on. Though I still fail to see why either of them would be even remotely interested in Chaotic little Tymora...True - saying that Helm had a secret thing for Tyr would have been more story-worthy, regardless of my own queezynesss over it. ;) However, from personal experience Stigger, I can tell you that opposites DO really attract. Maybe they needed a little 'Chaos' in their mundane, ho-hum lives. And with a little 'Luck', who knows? Maybe things would have worked out. :cool: Too bad that with all the 'drama' surrounding their courtship, we'll never know if things would have sparked between Tymora and Tyr. Now she is with him but resentful (it specifically says 'Heartbroken'), and that definately is no way to build a healthy relationship. Maybe Ilmater planned the whole thing, just so he could 'shack-up' with Sune. Perhaps he's grown tired of everyone's pity.
Stigger 10-30-07, 06:57 PM	I know that opposites attract... which if you knew my lovely wife would be remarkably apparent. I dunno though, even with that, I just don't really see her going for either one, particularly given the relationship she supposedly had with Brandobaris. Just tossing that one aside for the sake of some farcical drama just leaves me ill.
Charles Phipps 10-30-07, 11:47 PM	I'm fairly sure every God has gotten with nearly every other by this point or another.
MarkusTay63 10-31-07, 12:11 AM	No wonder the folks of the Realms are so Immoral - look who they have for role-models. :P A ran across a bit of lore yesterday where a caravan gaurd was discussing another gaurd's two wives and six children - I guess even polygamy is Okay in the Realms.
Charles Phipps 10-31-07, 12:40 AM	Silverfall had that bigomy be quite frowned upon. But yes, if we're going with Ed Greenwood's depiction, it's like the Summer of Love never ended in the Realms.
Stigger 10-31-07, 02:18 AM	C'mon Markus, that was bluntly said in the FRCS, and historically holds true for more than a few cultures on this world as well. And if one makes the inference of mistresses of the nobility and monarchies (and even certain politicians in this country), it still holds true today. It's why people usually want power, fame, and money in the first place. Spread the genes, fulfil the biological imperative, morality has nothing to do with it. Without the idea of body shame and sexual repression being present, it makes complete sense in the Realms, where there is no 'Fall from Grace' story such as the Adam & Eve thing going to shape that thought or notion. Morality is generally a function of religion, and with religions like Sune, Lliira, Sharess, and others being good-aligned, there's no reason why monogamy would or should be the norm beyond a personal preference. Most of the ideas of monogamy were essentially shaped around the idea of possession of females and control of their breeding, an idea which is thankfully absent from the Realms by and large. Monogamy is a fairly rare trait among most species, and certainly an unnatural one among humans as far as I can tell from reading social history. Sure we can choose to do so, I know I have, but I don't think its a particularly odd thing for a person to take as many "spouses" (which I include long-term lovers among) as one can afford, at least in a historical context. Going by what we know of the Rich and Powerful, its actually remarkably common among most of our human cultures.
Charles Phipps 10-31-07, 02:40 PM	Actually the whole "uptight about sex" thing isn't a Christian thing despite a lot of sexual uptightness. A lot of cultures have had really reactionary periods against it, pagan or not. I tend to think its primarilly a product of any wealthy society trying to keep it in one group.
Stigger 10-31-07, 04:07 PM	No, hardly an exclusive Christian theme, never said it was up there... the Adam & Eve example is simply the best known case of it, so makes for a good example. As to wealthy societies, that doesn't really fly considering some of the poorest regions around are the worst about it, although it is often stemming from an idea of possession of property and solid control over lineage and who gets to breed and who doesn't. The actual reasons tend to vary a bit in the details, but essentially stem from the same source. Historical information is a bit hard to come by truly though, as much of what we know was interpreted by European scholars, particularly Victorians, and much of their findings and conclusions are unravelling in the face of closer scrutiny, and hardly just where sexuality is concerned.
To11 10-31-07, 05:06 PM	How does this relate to THIS thread? I'm not sure how Cyric and Shar pulled it off, but I think they would have been behind this affair as well. Perhaps part of Helm's duties as 'Gaurdian' is to safe-gaurd the godly domains from intrusions? Ergo, he needed to be eliminated first in order for Shar to bypass the Celestial security measures that are in-place. It seems kind of coincidental that this transpired just before Cyric made his move, eh? ;) I would say this is exactly the case. People talk about how Tyr and Helm dueling each other is out of character (particularly over a lover), but I think that Cyric, as God of Strife and Deception, probably manipulated the gods into this incident (perhaps with Cyric acting as Iago to Tyr's Othello). As I recall, it was Helm who acted as a sort of Planar Guardian during the Time of Troubles. He is meant to be the Faerun equivalent of Heimdall, and that certainly fits every thing we've previously seen for him.