Toril Cosmology and the World Tree [Archive] - Wizards Community

Toril Cosmology and the World Tree [Archive] - Wizards Community

Post/Author/DateTime Post
Dolanor
08-10-07, 02:07 PM I want to know if anyone has an idea about the world tree and how it is "viewed".
I know the great tree link every celestial plane and can be used as a ladder.
But is this tree "viewable" ? Since we can use it, I think yes ! (like the diabolic plane which are really viewed and part of a enormous mass of rock. And the Styx we can use to travel through them)
Is it just a mind view ?
From where is it viewable ? Astral plane ? Can we see it from a plane like Arvandor ?
Is a plane like Arvandor only a branch of it (let say, the ground of arvandor is made from the branch (yes, huge branch :D)) ?
Can we see the Tree in totality if we are "far" enough ?

Yes I know, we can reply : this may be a mortal point of view, another may view it differently, etc ... But I really need to know this :)

Thanks for reading me :)
Shemeska the Marauder
08-10-07, 08:35 PM It's not a literal thing that can be viewed as if it were floating in some hypothetical boundary space, sinking literal roots into discrete and bound elemental planes, with branches into/as the deific and fiendish realms.

It's a conceptual tool to organize the cosmology and the relative positions and metaphysical relationships between the various planes that comprise it. It serves the same purpose as placing the Gray Waste between Gehenna and Carceri in the Great Wheel cosmology. The Waste isn't physically located between those adjacent planes, but it borders them ideologically, and due to that metaphysical likeness, you'll find portals and "boundaries" between it and those two other infinite planes.

Likewise the "diabolic plane" (I assume you meant the Tree's trio of fiendish planes) aren't actually part of a massive chunk of rock. That's again a combination of mortal conceptualization of infinite things, and artistic license on the part of the 3.x artwork. ;)
Dolanor
08-13-07, 09:04 AM Thank you for your reply :)

I feared it was a kind of that answer :)

But in the description of the link between celestial planes, it seemed that the tree had a sort of consciousness :
The tree allows some of Celestial outsiders to use its branchsto go to another celestial plane without going back to the material plane. But their goal must be good oriented.
(approximate translation from Players guide to Faerun)

It's like the tree choose which one can use its branch or not. It is somehow uncompatible with only a "mortal" point of view, right ?
Or maybe, it may not look like a tree and it is a sort common consciousness of portals which link from one celestial plane to another ?
Mr_Miscellany
08-13-07, 11:17 PM I think Dolanor is talking about the World Tree and not the Great Tree.

I get the impression the Tree has what amounts to an omnipotent bull*** detector. Since it resents being used as a staircase, it probably has some means of telling who is on a mission worthy enough to be allowed passage via the World Tree, and who is not on such a mission.

Then it sends the Celestial Treeants after unworthy types.

I think the World Tree is visible at certain points on different Celestial planes, but it's really up to each DM to decide if this is true, and if so how much is visible.

I could see it being entirely visible as some super-massive tree extending from the ground infinitly high into the planar heavens, while on other celestial planes it may be no more than a great root or portion of trune visible in the side of a mountain or snaking out from some great wood.

Lots of room to get creative, here.
ripvanwormer
08-14-07, 10:30 PM Certain cosmologies with historical ties to the Realms do include a cosmic tree called Yggdrasil that connects various planes. The fact that Tyr is worshiped on Faerun may be enough justification to include a root of Yggdrasil on Toril somewhere. If so, it would certainly touch Arvandor as well, as well as the lair of Dendar the Night Serpent, and doubtless many other planes (like the House of Nature). You could argue that it's the same as the Great Tree.

It would be visible only from the Astral Plane, though its individual roots and branches would be visible on whatever planes they touch. The connections to the various planes would look like pools of color in the Astral - you wouldn't see the planes as masses of rock.
Dolanor
08-16-07, 01:01 PM In fact, I was speaking of the World Tree http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/World_Tree

Sorry for my misspelling

Otherwise, I was thinking like Mr_Miscellany and ripvanwormer. The tree is viewed from some part of the plane and maybe in the astral too.

[Off Topic]So... hummm... What's the Great Tree ?[/Off Topic]

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
Dolanor 08-10-07, 02:07 PM	I want to know if anyone has an idea about the world tree and how it is "viewed". I know the great tree link every celestial plane and can be used as a ladder. But is this tree "viewable" ? Since we can use it, I think yes ! (like the diabolic plane which are really viewed and part of a enormous mass of rock. And the Styx we can use to travel through them) Is it just a mind view ? From where is it viewable ? Astral plane ? Can we see it from a plane like Arvandor ? Is a plane like Arvandor only a branch of it (let say, the ground of arvandor is made from the branch (yes, huge branch :D)) ? Can we see the Tree in totality if we are "far" enough ? Yes I know, we can reply : this may be a mortal point of view, another may view it differently, etc ... But I really need to know this :) Thanks for reading me :)
Shemeska the Marauder 08-10-07, 08:35 PM	It's not a literal thing that can be viewed as if it were floating in some hypothetical boundary space, sinking literal roots into discrete and bound elemental planes, with branches into/as the deific and fiendish realms. It's a conceptual tool to organize the cosmology and the relative positions and metaphysical relationships between the various planes that comprise it. It serves the same purpose as placing the Gray Waste between Gehenna and Carceri in the Great Wheel cosmology. The Waste isn't physically located between those adjacent planes, but it borders them ideologically, and due to that metaphysical likeness, you'll find portals and "boundaries" between it and those two other infinite planes. Likewise the "diabolic plane" (I assume you meant the Tree's trio of fiendish planes) aren't actually part of a massive chunk of rock. That's again a combination of mortal conceptualization of infinite things, and artistic license on the part of the 3.x artwork. ;)
Dolanor 08-13-07, 09:04 AM	Thank you for your reply :) I feared it was a kind of that answer :) But in the description of the link between celestial planes, it seemed that the tree had a sort of consciousness : The tree allows some of Celestial outsiders to use its branchsto go to another celestial plane without going back to the material plane. But their goal must be good oriented. (approximate translation from Players guide to Faerun) It's like the tree choose which one can use its branch or not. It is somehow uncompatible with only a "mortal" point of view, right ? Or maybe, it may not look like a tree and it is a sort common consciousness of portals which link from one celestial plane to another ?
Mr_Miscellany 08-13-07, 11:17 PM	I think Dolanor is talking about the World Tree and not the Great Tree. I get the impression the Tree has what amounts to an omnipotent bull*** detector. Since it resents being used as a staircase, it probably has some means of telling who is on a mission worthy enough to be allowed passage via the World Tree, and who is not on such a mission. Then it sends the Celestial Treeants after unworthy types. I think the World Tree is visible at certain points on different Celestial planes, but it's really up to each DM to decide if this is true, and if so how much is visible. I could see it being entirely visible as some super-massive tree extending from the ground infinitly high into the planar heavens, while on other celestial planes it may be no more than a great root or portion of trune visible in the side of a mountain or snaking out from some great wood. Lots of room to get creative, here.
ripvanwormer 08-14-07, 10:30 PM	Certain cosmologies with historical ties to the Realms do include a cosmic tree called Yggdrasil that connects various planes. The fact that Tyr is worshiped on Faerun may be enough justification to include a root of Yggdrasil on Toril somewhere. If so, it would certainly touch Arvandor as well, as well as the lair of Dendar the Night Serpent, and doubtless many other planes (like the House of Nature). You could argue that it's the same as the Great Tree. It would be visible only from the Astral Plane, though its individual roots and branches would be visible on whatever planes they touch. The connections to the various planes would look like pools of color in the Astral - you wouldn't see the planes as masses of rock.
Dolanor 08-16-07, 01:01 PM	In fact, I was speaking of the World Tree http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/World_Tree Sorry for my misspelling Otherwise, I was thinking like Mr_Miscellany and ripvanwormer. The tree is viewed from some part of the plane and maybe in the astral too. [Off Topic]So... hummm... What's the Great Tree ?[/Off Topic]