Post/Author/DateTime	Post
18DELTA 11-29-07, 06:26 PM	http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14458828#post14458828 According to Rich Baker Torm is Good to Go WHILE tyr is going BYE-BYE!:w00t: :clap: :plotting: :lightbulb :evillaugh :dancin: :angelhide :cheer: :king: :devil: :angel: :schemes: :ayyyy!: :bow: :cloud9: :rofl: :bounce: :pile: :heehee This is a really interesting suggestion, and a well-reasoned argument. So interesting and so well-reasoned, in fact, that I took the liberty of forwarding it to the other designers working on FR 4e. We had a brief huddle this morning, and I think we're going to implement it: Torm in, Tyr out. More details than that I can't reveal yet, but it actually helps "spackle in" a couple of pantheon events we were working on anyway. Thanks for the excellent suggestion, Green Knight! Quote: Originally Posted by GreenKnight I don't know about anyone else, Rich, but after this whole debacle with Helm and Tyr, I'd just like to see Tyr gone and have Torm replace him and become the new God of Justice. Yeah, he was a servant in life and a servant as a god, but I think it's time for Torm to step up to the big leagues. Let him pass on the Portfolios of Duty, Loyalty, and Obedience to another servitor deity (Possibly Nobanion or even Bahamut. Or better yet, create a new god who was once a mortal follower of Torm, a Paladin, who discovered the location of Chalsembyr, and who was rewarded by being elevated to Demigod status) while he claims the Portfolios of Justice, Guardians, Protection, Protectors, and Paladins. I think there're numerous good reasons to do so: 1) Tyr killing Helm has left a bad taste in a lot of peoples mouths. Maybe I've got a limited imagination , but I imagine that the number of Realms players who like that plotline don't even reach into the double digits, percentage wise. It's probably a stretch to say that 2-3% of Realms fans like that story. Point is, Tyr's now inextricably linked to a story which has left a bad taste in the mouths of a lot of Realms fans, and his continued presence will only serve as a constant reminder of that story. So what's the value of keeping him around? He doesn't bring anything to the Realms, but instead detracts from it. Hell, he did so even before that whole debacle, as I'll illustrate below. 2) Tyr's an interloper deity, while Torm's a native. There're other interloper deities in the Realms, but Tyr's far more stand out then the rest. For some people, he starts conjuring up images of Thor, Loki, and Odin, and frankly, I don't want to think about Thor when I'm playing in the Realms. Bad enough that the story of Fenris was altered so that Kezef the Chaos Hound filled that role. I think it's time for Tyr to pack up and go home. 3) With Helm's death, his worshippers have to go somewhere. So where will they go? They certainly won't go to Tyr. Hell, Tyr may end up losing worshippers, too, once people hear about the whole sordid story with Tymora and Helm. Torm, on the other hand, is the natural choice for Helm's former worshippers to flock to. Especially with Torm and Helm having actively directed their churches to foster good relations with each other. With Helm's death, that's where those good relations would pay off, as Torm's church is likely to end up absorbing a good deal of Helm's worshippers. With that kind of influx of worshippers, that'd easily push Torm up to Intermediate status at a minimum. 4) Torm's star has been on the rise for years, now. Ever since the Time of Troubles, we've been told in supplement after supplement how popular his church is becoming. How many more worshippers he's gaining. Torm's church seemed to be rivalling Helm's church, and Helm is/was an Intermediate God. That's a god who should be promoted, not demoted. His fairly meteoric rise in popularity can only have been helped along by the return of Bane. It was Torm, after all, who killed Bane during the Time of Troubles. With Bane returned, and Faerunians fearful about what that entails, more and more people are praying to Torm for deliverance from Bane. Faerunians are looking to Torm for salvation, and has been pointed out before, the beliefs of worshippers can change a deity. With so many people praying to Torm to defend them from Bane, Torm's role in the Faerunian Pantheon would start shifting, and he'd soon enough cease to be simply about duty and loyalty. Especially if he were to pick up Helm's Portfolio of Protection. 5) Torm's story is a powerful one. It's the kind of story that real religions are built around. He sacrificed himself to save his worshippers. He died and was resurrected. It literally doesn't get better then that. So why have a god as vibrant and interesting as Torm as a mere servitor, when the god who he serves is dull and lacklustre by comparison? Personally, I think you folks are missing a golden opportunity, here. You've got a fantastic confluence of events which can and should lead up to Torm stepping up and becoming a Greater God, taking his place as Bane's arch-nemesis. The ying to his yang and all that. It'd make for a great dynamic in the Faerunian Pantheon, and it'd be a whole lot more personal then setting up Tyr or Silvanus against Bane. The two of them literally fought each other to death, after all. Not to mention that in a lot of respects, Bane is a dark mirror of Torm. It'd be nice if they were on an equal playing field, again. Then we can just sit back and watch the conflict percolate. That's my personal wish, anyway. But at the very least, Torm should be a Lesser God (In 4E terms, I mean). Putting him down as a Demigod is a contradiction to established background, in which he does have worshippers, and churches, and clerics, and even whole knightly orders devoted to him. And all of that background has said that his faith is only growing, not shrinking. And the influx of former Helm worshippers could only make it grow, not shrink. So there's no way that Torm should ever be listed as a Demipower in the 4E Realms. __________________ Rich Baker Senior Designer Roleplaying R&D Wizards of the Coast, Inc. Green Knight is my Hero!:D
Storm_Silverhand 11-29-07, 06:49 PM	Heya, Green Knight is my Hero!:D There's just one thing GreenKnight didn't think through. Tymora.
buzzard 11-29-07, 07:13 PM	Heya, There's just one thing GreenKnight didn't think through. Tymora. That's Tymora's (Beshaba's) luck :p.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-29-07, 07:16 PM	Wow--it's not everyday you see something like that.
Suin Bahhar 11-29-07, 07:34 PM	:) I like.
GreenKnight 11-29-07, 07:38 PM	Heya, There's just one thing GreenKnight didn't think through. Tymora. Ahem. Once Torm is in place he can repair the damage done by Tyr, starting with letting Tymora return to Sune's court... And thank you all. I gladly accept these accolades on behalf of Realms fans in general, and Torm fans in particular. Now where's my cigar? :D
Stigger 11-29-07, 07:40 PM	I'm pretty much with what Zandilar/Storm/Whateveryoucallyourselfthesedays said on there... hope the designers remember to work out some of those unanswered questions. But really, I can't fault GK for not addressing it, as it was mostly just an arguement for why Torm should be ascendent over Tyr. So, well done to you GreenKnight, congratulations. :) Oops, sorry, missed that second post of yours there, I see you did cover that one.
Storm_Silverhand 11-29-07, 08:25 PM	Heya, And thank you all. I gladly accept these accolades on behalf of Realms fans in general, and Torm fans in particular. Now where's my cigar? :D *hands GreenKnight a cigar* I must be blind... :embarrass *checks her glasses, then gives them a clean* :D
GreenKnight 11-29-07, 08:52 PM	http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/264957/2252206smokeemoticon.gif Thanks. *sigh* Ah, my sweet Cubans. http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/264957/2252203puff.jpg
Dark Wizard 11-29-07, 09:29 PM	Good work on that persuasive post GreenKnight. Prominence for Torm is one change I can definitely get behind in 4E.
Todesherr 11-29-07, 11:34 PM	Es lebe der Gruene Ritter! Vive le Chevalier Vert! Viva El Caballero Verde! Vive Il Cavaliere Verde! Het leve De Groene Ridder! Viveat Equites Verdus! Long Live the Green Knight!
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 12:23 AM	-Great...But, now Tyr is gone. Not that I particularly cared about him one way or the other, but...
18DELTA 11-30-07, 12:23 AM	:tiphat: Green Knight For President!!!!:D
Todesherr 11-30-07, 12:52 AM	:tiphat: Green Knight For President!!!!:D No, Ron Paul for President!!!!!!!!!!!
Lord Karsus 11-30-07, 01:08 AM	No, Ron Paul for President!!!!!!!!!!! -The porn guy?
18DELTA 11-30-07, 01:26 AM	That would be Larry Flynt. ;) :P
Stigger 11-30-07, 01:35 AM	No, not the porn guy, the semi-slimey ex-libertarian fellow... just don't like the look of him... something just undefinably evil about him. Not as bad as Kerry was, or Bush is, but I still don't like him.
Mr. FIXIT 11-30-07, 02:56 AM	As long as they strive not to make Bane and Torm into the new Hieroneus and Hextor of the Realms, I'm all for this change. Please give us some more than the bland and cliché story of Paladin the Paladingod who opposes Tyrant the Tyrantgod... At any rate. Congratulations GreenKnight! Even if you did manage to kill off one of my favorite FR gods! :) I just wish they would take this a step further, and remove all the other real-life add-ons as well. Egypt-land and Mesopotamia-land, I'm looking at you!
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 04:42 AM	I've pretty much been saying that same thing - they've done a pretty good job of ret-conning them out (the Greek ones from 1e), and renaming others (like Baast) for the last two editions, so if it continues down this road I could definately get behind a more centralized Faerūnian Pantheon. Interlopers! It's Judgement Day... :fight!:
Todesherr 11-30-07, 07:15 AM	No, not the porn guy, the semi-slimey ex-libertarian fellow... just don't like the look of him... something just undefinably evil about him. Not as bad as Kerry was, or Bush is, but I still don't like him. This is a completely ignorant, unfounded statement. It shows how little you know about him. Slimely? How's this for slimely: Brief Overview of Congressman Paul’s Record: He has never voted to raise taxes. He has never voted for an unbalanced budget. He has never voted for a federal restriction on gun ownership. He has never voted to raise congressional pay. He has never taken a government-paid junket. He has never voted to increase the power of the executive branch. He voted against the Patriot Act. He voted against regulating the Internet. He voted against the Iraq war. He does not participate in the lucrative congressional pension program. He returns a portion of his annual congressional office budget to the U.S. treasury every year. Congressman Paul introduces numerous pieces of substantive legislation each year, probably more than any single member of Congress. Real slimely, huh?:rolleyes: No offense but you were talking total nonsense... For those interested in the truth go to: http://www.ronpaul2008.com
Derren S. 11-30-07, 08:01 AM	Less real world politics please... While I don't know much about the inner workings of FR divine politics but I always thought that after this whole issue Tyr shouldbe ousted as deity of justice etc. He lost that portfolio by violating them big time. Now who id going to get Torms old job? I can't imagine that he keeps all his current portfolios, for example obedience, and takes Tyrs rather big justice portfolio. But aside from obedience I have no idea what portfolios Torm should loose as they all fit together even with justice included? And who will take the obedience portfolio? I can't imagine that Bahamut, the god of metallic dragons takes it to become a servant. A new ascended deity probably makes the most sense.
Suin Bahhar 11-30-07, 08:20 AM	I'd like a guardian angel type servitor. An ascended female paladin hero. Or an archon of protectors like Sealtiel from BoED.
Todesherr 11-30-07, 09:03 AM	Less real world politics please... While I don't know much about the inner workings of FR divine politics but I always thought that after this whole issue Tyr shouldbe ousted as deity of justice etc. He lost that portfolio by violating them big time. Now who id going to get Torms old job? I can't imagine that he keeps all his current portfolios, for example obedience, and takes Tyrs rather big justice portfolio. But aside from obedience I have no idea what portfolios Torm should loose as they all fit together even with justice included? And who will take the obedience portfolio? I can't imagine that Bahamut, the god of metallic dragons takes it to become a servant. A new ascended deity probably makes the most sense. Naja, Pflicht duerfte immer noch im Portfolio bleiben, also sehe ich es so: Torm Greater Power Portfolio: Justice, Protection, Guardians, Duty, Paladins
Zanan 11-30-07, 09:47 AM	What can you say ... "Dear me!" maybe? You wonder what will happen next.
Todesherr 11-30-07, 10:43 AM	What can you say ... "Dear me!" maybe? You wonder what will happen next. Ich kann viel mehr sagen, als nur das....:D
Stigger 11-30-07, 02:27 PM	Todesherr... I never asserted that any of that was anything but personal perception. I don't like the man, despite his record. Something about him creeps me out. I can happily say the same thing about Gore (among others), but with a bit more venom because of his wife. It is a matter of personal perception & opinion, so treat it as such. Anyway, I'd like to see Red Knight move up to replace Tempus myself. It seems that without wizards around to provide as much support, commanders are going to have to rely on much better planning in order to accomplish goals, rather than on arcane artillery, although I'm not holding my breath since it doesn't really fit a POL scheme too well.
Questing GM 11-30-07, 02:33 PM	Was the whole affair of Tyr, Helm and Tymora mentioned in the GHotR ? So if Tyr is gone, does that mean Torm marries Tymora ? (and kills Helm ?! Gods forbid). I wonder how the developers are going to explain the new changes :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 11-30-07, 02:52 PM	Was the whole affair of Tyr, Helm and Tymora mentioned in the GHotR ? It wasn't merely "mentioned" there, that's where we all found out about it. So if Tyr is gone, does that mean Torm marries Tymora ? Good gods, I hope not! I'd actually be pretty offended if Tymora continued to be treated like chattel who had to marry "whomever was left".:rolleyes:
msatran 11-30-07, 04:16 PM	I say keep all the Finnish ones. THey're too central to the theme of certain areas, like the North. Meilikki is Finnish. Silvanus is also. Not having any nature deities at all except Malar would really suck, plus I'll take Meilikki in a bikini over Gwaeron Windstrom in a bikini any day. (Sorry, Dan) Plus, I see a grand opportunity to keep Tyr. All they have to do is write THE most Film Noir novel of the gods ever...as much as I hate this idea, I think it can be worked in much better. Mystra has been murdered....Cyric is imprisoned...The God of Justice sits on his righteous throne, bothered and perplexed. Selune comes to Tyr's court, weeping in tears, and presents evidence, however slim, that Cyric and Shar are innocent. It will be the most noir novel ever. At the end of the novel, whatever happened, Tyr is so disgusted that he rescinds his divinity and demotes himself to lesser deity status. I kind of like the idea of keeping him as the "Private investigator of the gods." Plus, the most important thing about a mystery novel is not having any spoilers, and it has to be solvable and have all the clues in it.
GothicDan 11-30-07, 04:18 PM	Gwaeron isn't very hot. It's okay!
Storm_Silverhand 11-30-07, 04:57 PM	Heya, But aside from obedience I have no idea what portfolios Torm should loose as they all fit together even with justice included? And who will take the obedience portfolio? I can't imagine that Bahamut, the god of metallic dragons takes it to become a servant. A new ascended deity probably makes the most sense. What's all this with Bahamut becoming merely a servitor? What a ridiculous concept, and it would have metallic dragons Faerun over up in arms. This just illustrates the stupidity of reducing the gods of the Realms to a single Pantheon. Bahamut is a very important deity to the dragons of good, and there's nothing that anyone could argue that would convince me he should be anything less than a greater power in his own right (if only to counter Tiamat, who serves no one at this point and is not likely to start serving anyone any time soon). ENOUGH MEDDLING WITH THE GODS ALREADY!!!
msatran 11-30-07, 05:07 PM	Yeah, I'm still debating the logic of that one myself. That's actually the PRIMARY reason that I am considering not switching to 4th edition. The flavor changes make this impossible. And if they do a 100 year jump, there's no reason to switch. My players would rake me over the coals.
Master Sylvius 11-30-07, 05:18 PM	Will Torm pass some of his former duties to his supposed girlfriend (the Red Knight)? The Goddess of strategy, planning and tactics could very well receive duty as part of her portfolio.
msatran 11-30-07, 05:29 PM	I would love it if they kept the Red Knight on. She's my favorite. :) (Say nothing.)
SmartPaladin 11-30-07, 06:06 PM	Yay! I can honestly say that I'm happy about this. Now I only have question. What's gonna happen to Hoar? It was Tyr and Shar fighting for his soul, so I wanna know if this means Shar gets it. I hope not. I'd rather he'd go and hang out with Kelemvor. Anyway, I really am happy about Torm taking Tyr's spot. I was having a hard time liking Tyr after he killed Helm. I liked Helm... :(
GreenKnight 11-30-07, 06:08 PM	I doubt it'd be the Red Knight, as she's a servant of Tempus, and seems happy being where she is. Besides, you gotta love the whole situation, with Tempus being something like a father figure to her. Every time I think about it I picture Torm showing up at Warrior's Rest and getting stared down by Tempus before he and the Red Knight take off together. ("I've got my eyes on you, boy! You break her heart, and I'll break your legs.") :D Personally, like I said in my other post, I'm hoping we'll see a mortal follower of Torm who's been questing for Chalsembyr, Torm's original country, and finally finds it. And as a reward, he/she gets elevated to a Demigod. And maybe in honor of his girlfriend the Red Knight Torm will name this new god the Green Knight, and... :devil: Good gods, I hope not! I'd actually be pretty offended if Tymora continued to be treated like chattel who had to marry "whomever was left" Yeah, that'd be pretty horrible on multiple levels. With any luck, though, that marriage will get annulled and Tymora can go back to being Tymora. And Torm will be free to continue putting his cheap moves on the Red Knight.
MarkusTay63 11-30-07, 06:20 PM	I didn't want to clog up the designer's thread, but I figured this is pertinent so I will post it here (hopefully the designers will read this as well). I was doing some research, loooking for appearances of Chauntea OUTSIDE of Faerūn, and I came across this in the Adventurer's Guide to Zakhara, under the Ajami (foriegner) gods: "The Golden God Helam, also called Helam the watcher, serves as a gaurdian of the northern barbarians. Helam is the barbarian's shield, much as the great city of Qudra shields the civilized world against a barbarian invasion. In fact, it was at Qudra's door that Zakharans first gained their understanding of Helam. Not long ago, a group of Ajami adventurers landed near the City of Power and attempted to claim all ground they spied in the name of their homeland. A few Marid and Djinn quickly discouraged such attitudes, and the survivors are said to be serving the Mamluks as slaves." Now, we know that Helam is Helm, because those "northern barbarians" are the folk from Faerūn. This single paragraph seems to indicate that Maztica was not the only time Helm's followers try to subjugate other regions, it just happened to be the only successful one. Just one more nail in Helm's coffin, as it were - I don't see how anyone thought this guy was good.
Stigger 11-30-07, 07:23 PM	Indeed true Markus... always kinda puzzled me as well.
johnkretzer 11-30-07, 07:29 PM	Just one more nail in Helm's coffin, as it were - I don't see how anyone thought this guy was good. I don't get either seeing how he was LN...but then again remeber the now moto simpler is better...and Helm was very complex. But goes against the New Black and White morality of D&D...
GothicDan 11-30-07, 09:05 PM	I liked Helm, but I never, EVER saw him as anything but hard LN.
Selvarin 11-30-07, 09:31 PM	Helm became the whipping boy/stand-in for the hard-core real world equivalent stereotype. The Realms wasn't meant to be real-world in the sense of having a Maztica, etc. etc...but what struck me was reading in F&A, how his followers were LG and LN. If he'd been treated properly in 3e (by looking at guidelines regarding his followers) he should've been switched to LG instead. But the prob is that Torm fills much the same role (that of protection) so I don't mind him taking Helm's church, etc., over. As an aside, if WotC were to really go 'real world' then the Zakharans would've been invading the rest of the Realms a lot more often. Hmm.
Dark Wizard 11-30-07, 10:34 PM	I don't get either seeing how he was LN...but then again remeber the now moto simpler is better...and Helm was very complex. But goes against the New Black and White morality of D&D... QFT
Questing GM 11-30-07, 11:34 PM	It wasn't merely "mentioned" there, that's where we all found out about it. Wow. So in that case, the designers are going to contradict themselves of what they had already 'published in stone' ? Another alternative is that Tyr kills Helm, get punished/banished by Ao from great godhood down to a lesser power, takes away some of his portfolios, gives them to Torm and promotes him to takeover Tyr's place in the righteous throne :D Tyr becomes a bitter god and then we can see the first war between the Triad with its breakdown. :schemes: Imagine the church wars that can happen on the mortal realm. Tyr self righteous zealots (believing that Torm had been the conspirator of removing Tyr so that he could ascend) battling Torm worshipers (who despised what was once the patron of Torm as a foul corruption of Justice) and Banites enjoying the show.
glitter 12-01-07, 02:06 PM	Another alternative is that Tyr kills Helm, get punished/banished by Ao from great godhood down to a lesser power, takes away some of his portfolios, gives them to Torm and promotes him to takeover Tyr's place in the righteous throne :D I think that a decision of AO would be a bit overkill. On the other hand, a decision from Tyr himslf to leave the realms seems consistent with his attribution ... the only problem is that gods have a quite different way of thinking. :P Tyr becomes a bitter god and then we can see the first war between the Triad with its breakdown. :schemes: Imagine the church wars that can happen on the mortal realm. Tyr self righteous zealots (believing that Torm had been the conspirator of removing Tyr so that he could ascend) battling Torm worshipers (who despised what was once the patron of Torm as a foul corruption of Justice) and Banites enjoying the show. Mystra dead, Tyr away, Torm weakened ? IT remind me a campaign with Greyhawk campaign that failed and saw Hextor becoming the most powerful god :D
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-01-07, 06:10 PM	Wow. So in that case, the designers are going to contradict themselves of what they had already 'published in stone' ? Probably not--I was figuring the Torm would replace Tyr sometime after the Tyr vs. Helm thing happened.:)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-01-07, 06:12 PM	Helm became the whipping boy/stand-in for the hard-core real world equivalent stereotype. The Realms wasn't meant to be real-world in the sense of having a Maztica, etc. etc... I agree, making the Church of Helm the FR version of the Catholic Church was annoying and stupid.
msatran 12-01-07, 06:12 PM	Hey, GN. Do you REALLY want to be named after a mythological oak man who challenges people to beheading contests? Oh...wait...you already ARE. Still, I think that might be going a little far.
GreenKnight 12-02-07, 03:12 AM	Hey, GN. Do you REALLY want to be named after a mythological oak man who challenges people to beheading contests? Oh...wait...you already ARE. Still, I think that might be going a little far. *scratches head* I don't get it.
Selvarin 12-02-07, 04:28 AM	Just curious, did we ever get an answer on the GHotR reference to the Triad being broken after Helm's death even though he wasn't part of the Triad?
Suin Bahhar 12-02-07, 09:08 AM	*scratches head* I don't get it.Look up the Arthurian legend "Sir Gawain and the Green Knight" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_knight), GreenKnight. It's a very cool story...
GreenKnight 12-02-07, 09:47 AM	I've read it. Where do you think I got the name? ;) I just don't get the point of msatran's post. It quite literally flew over my head. Or maybe under it? :D
Lord Karsus 12-02-07, 10:21 AM	I've read it. Where do you think I got the name? ;) I just don't get the point of msatran's post. It quite literally flew over my head. Or maybe under it? :D -Well, considering all of the beheading, it's good that you still have a head.
GreenKnight 12-02-07, 10:25 AM	All I need is some industrial strength glue and I'm good to go. :D
Zanan 12-02-07, 10:45 AM	Just curious, did we ever get an answer on the GHotR reference to the Triad being broken after Helm's death even though he wasn't part of the Triad? Ilmater removes his realm from the House over the death of Helm, so essentially he breaks up the Triad.
18DELTA 12-02-07, 06:17 PM	I've read it. Where do you think I got the name? ;) I just don't get the point of msatran's post. It quite literally flew over my head. Or maybe under it? :D Alot of msatrans posts are that way, oh yeah I am a blond so that is normal for me.:P
Selvarin 12-02-07, 06:23 PM	Ilmater removes his realm from the House over the death of Helm, so essentially he breaks up the Triad. Hmm, even though the GHotR says the Triad is broken before Ilmater moves out? Ahhh.
Zanan 12-02-07, 06:45 PM	Hmm, even though the GHotR says the Triad is broken before Ilmater moves out? Ahhh. I wasn't under the impression that the Triad was broken before Ilmater moved/s out. Maybe I'll double check on that ... later.
GreenKnight 12-02-07, 07:37 PM	The exact quote is this. - With the Triad broken because of Helm's death, Ilmater chooses to remove his domain from the House of the Triad. He reestablishes his celestial realm in Brightwater at Sune's invitation. Personally, I think it's just a misworded sentence.
msatran 12-02-07, 10:08 PM	Green, actually, you don't need the glue. That's always for the other guy. :)
Zanan 12-03-07, 05:48 AM	The exact quote is this. Personally, I think it's just a misworded sentence. Yep. The Triad is Tyr, Torm and Ilmater ... so there was a bit of a mix-up there. No that it mattered that much, since Ilmater went away. Rereading that section again, I noted a few more things which escaped my attention before, e.g. Mrs. Darkhope. Dunno how many FRCS NPCs are actually left now?
msatran 12-03-07, 06:18 AM	I think the phrase refers to disagreement within the Triad, and, while badly worded, the intent behind the phrasing of the passage is there. That doesn't mean I don't hate it. I DO. I loathe it, but they've decided to go through with this. I mean, good is losing a ton of champions. Evil loses..Scyulla Darkhope? Somehow, I don't find this particularly amusing. Plus, according to this, what happens to Impiltur? George, please weigh in, you wrote the stuff and you've always been supportive. Can you even HAVE the Triadic Knights without the Triad? That was the coolest idea ever, and it existed for less than 1.5 years? You cannot be serious. My argument is that you have to. A bunch of paladins and warrior knights are not going to abandon the eight hundred year traditions of their nation and a five hundred year knightly order, regardless of what their deities individually decide. It makes the organization a lot more political and a lot darker, but I'll take that over not having Knights of the Triad at all.
GreenKnight 12-03-07, 07:15 AM	Green, actually, you don't need the glue. That's always for the other guy. :) Well, so long as they take their decapitation like a man, they won't need anything. ;) Well, except for Gawain. But in that case, a band-aid was enough as he just got nicked. And I completely agree with you about the Triadic Knights. Hopefully if this change does go through, Torm will go about fixing the Triad ASAP. Get Ilmater back and find someone else to fill his post. Then the Triadic Knights would be able to continue on relatively the same.
Lord Karsus 12-03-07, 08:57 AM	-Worst comes to worst, and I have to, I'll join the Triad. Please, please, don't thank me now...:)
Zireael 12-03-07, 09:11 AM	I hope there will be no more drastic changes... though I'd prefer Tyr over Torm...:(
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-03-07, 09:46 AM	I hope there will be no more drastic changes... A vain hope, don't you think?
glitter 12-03-07, 10:42 AM	I hope there will be no more drastic changes... though I'd prefer Tyr over Torm...:( Let's all hope that Tyr won't buy 4Ed books.
Storm_Silverhand 12-03-07, 04:20 PM	Heya, Let's all hope that Tyr won't buy 4Ed books. Of course he won't... He's not welcome there anymore! :rolleyes: :D
msatran 12-03-07, 04:31 PM	Yeah, you guys know I wouldn't put out the call for George to weigh in if I didn't think it was serious. :)
18DELTA 12-03-07, 04:35 PM	-Worst comes to worst, and I have to, I'll join the Triad. Please, please, don't thank me now...:) :cheer: :w00t: :clap: :plotting: :lightbulb :evillaugh :dancin: :angelhide :king: :devil: :angel: :bow: :cloud9: :rofl: Please sort this mess out Ok!;) :P :D
Selvarin 12-03-07, 05:00 PM	Well let's think about it... Bahamut will likely be a more prominent Lesser Power in the Realms if Tyr gets outed and Torm becomes the FRDT's new golden boy. The Triad can reform, but with a new arrangement.
Lord Karsus 12-03-07, 05:53 PM	:cheer: :w00t: :clap: :plotting: :lightbulb :evillaugh :dancin: :angelhide :king: :devil: :angel: :bow: :cloud9: :rofl: Please sort this mess out Ok!;) :P :D -Only if it comes to that.
msatran 12-03-07, 06:25 PM	No. Tyr is getting thrown out. He is not getting outed! That's highly suspect. It must be this 24 hour period, it's afflicting everyone. Thanks for the horrid image of Tyr in Lavender and Puce, I did not need that, and I'm sure Dan didn't either. Outing Tyr. Ouch.
Selvarin 12-03-07, 06:31 PM	Um, ousted. But if you like he can be a cross-dressing norseman deity. Wouldn't that scare the heck out of villagers if a longship full of dress-wearing Viking priests show up and out the bullhorn you hear, "Throw down your weapons...and your bustierres...and no one will get hurt!"...? Oh wait. He's a god of justice in the Realms. But you'll score extra points in court if you wear matching eyeshadow. Bribes won't help but flair will get you everywhere. Now back to the usual... Hmm, maybe Bahamut can take over the Justice aspect. I mean, who's more fair than a platinum dragon? :P
msatran 12-03-07, 06:35 PM	ROFL
Arbourean 12-06-07, 01:40 AM	I'm not too thrilled with all the changes, but I do believe Torm's promotion is long overdue. To read the flavour text in the supplements, he -should- be a greater god.
Storm_Silverhand 12-06-07, 11:49 PM	Heya, I'm not too thrilled with all the changes, but I do believe Torm's promotion is long overdue. To read the flavour text in the supplements, he -should- be a greater god. So should a lot of deities... Tymora included.
Kenzuki 12-08-07, 07:12 PM	:confused: Why would Tyr buy the 4thED books, he's BLIND????
msatran 12-08-07, 07:23 PM	Laugh. Apparently so.
Selvarin 12-08-07, 08:19 PM	He has a braille addition, I'm sure.
CassiusSchermont 12-17-07, 02:14 PM	And who said that Wizards doesn't listen to us! Green Knight, that was awesome!
Selvarin 12-17-07, 02:28 PM	:rolleyes: Yeah that's awesome. But it would be more 'awesome' if the FRDT *didn't* kill off a deity based on people's reasoning. If I saw one of them go, "You know you're right...we shouldn't do X. We should leave that one alone. Good idea." That would more awesome, especially since they already said they weren't changing course and getting them to do something similar to the above scenario hasn't happened and won't happen. Tyr was already on that list.
Estelindis 12-18-07, 09:25 PM	No offence intended to Green Knight :) - but, as Tyr is one of the two gods upon whom my campaign focuses (the other being Waukeen), he'll be sticking around in my FR. ;) I prefer it if it's up to the DM which gods stay in and which stay out. Of course, in general, this is still the case. But it's easier to exclude part of a wider canon ("yes, that exists - but we're not focusing on it") than to add something extra onto a narrow canon ("in addition to what exists in 4e, there's also this... and this... and a few more pantheons - here, let me tell you about them..."). In particular, speaking from a niche perspective: it would be nice to have a broader 4e FR canon for building NWN modules. Up to now (speaking generally), a common understanding of FR has been assumed in the player base. That's going to change in 4e, as so many of the staples builders were used to drawing on are being taken away. Now, unless we want to go with the new 4e flow and lose so much old richness, we're going to have to explain the way things are in "our" FR at the start of every adventure... :( It's going to get pretty confusing. And, incidentally, I have bought a *lot* of FR books just to help me work on my NWN building. I doubt the same will be true in 4e.
Storm_Silverhand 12-19-07, 05:26 PM	Heya, Of course, in general, this is still the case. But it's easier to exclude part of a wider canon ("yes, that exists - but we're not focusing on it") than to add something extra onto a narrow canon ("in addition to what exists in 4e, there's also this... and this... and a few more pantheons - here, let me tell you about them..."). Well said. This is exactly right, and I think is a point a number of us have been trying to get across to the designers... to no avail. In particular, speaking from a niche perspective: it would be nice to have a broader 4e FR canon for building NWN modules. Up to now (speaking generally), a common understanding of FR has been assumed in the player base. That's going to change in 4e, as so many of the staples builders were used to drawing on are being taken away. Now, unless we want to go with the new 4e flow and lose so much old richness, we're going to have to explain the way things are in "our" FR at the start of every adventure... :( It's going to get pretty confusing. And, incidentally, I have bought a *lot* of FR books just to help me work on my NWN building. I doubt the same will be true in 4e. Well, considering the Aurora and <insert the name of the NWN2 engine here> engines are both based on 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons game rules, people would be foolish to try and upgrade either of them to 4th Edition game rules (it would be a big project that would probably mean proper rewrites of the engines). There's no reason why the NWN modding community has to switch over to 4th Ed, any more than the BG modding community switched over to 3rd Ed. So you're not losing sources, you're just not getting any new ones... However, since any NWN modder worth their salt was/is drawing on 2nd Ed lore sources as well, there's no reason they couldn't draw on 4th Ed lore, except that most of the 4th Ed lore I've seen so far sucks... Ah, yeah... no reason they couldn't draw on the lore because with a bit of work it can fit with the game system. Game systems should largely be independent of the lore. This is something the designers at WotC seem to have forgotten.
Estelindis 12-19-07, 06:51 PM	Heya, Well said. This is exactly right, and I think is a point a number of us have been trying to get across to the designers... to no avail. Thank you. :) Well, considering the Aurora and <insert the name of the NWN2 engine here> engines are both based on 3rd Edition Dungeons and Dragons game rules, people would be foolish to try and upgrade either of them to 4th Edition game rules Good point. (It's the Electron engine for NWN2, by the way.) I've always seen FR as a role-playing setting first and as existing in a certain edition of D&D ruleset second... so I kinda assumed that, when 4e comes out, players will be carrying forward their ideas of 4e lore into a 3e game. (Personally, I had no intentions of even trying to make a massive game-mechanical overhaul to NWN! Mind-boggling...) But now, reflecting on your remarks, I suppose that many people playing a 3e game will not be looking for 4e lore. Yes, one *could* add it. (And, yes, as a mirror for that, I have been relying upon a lot of 2e lore for my campaigns, because many areas in FR were never updated fully to 3e). However, 4e doesn't look like it will be adding much lore that I will want to include... Even if the lore does turn out to have many cool elements (which I would expect, in spite of all the things I've heard that I don't like), they may be so difficult to extricate from the general world-changing shift as to be unusable. Or they may not. We'll see. :) Game systems should largely be independent of the lore. This is something the designers at WotC seem to have forgotten. I agree completely. It's one of the strengths of D&D that it can accommodate the different flavours of FR and Eberron quite happily within one system. I don't see why one would even have different campaign settings if the lore is going to become core...
Bonzai 12-19-07, 06:54 PM	Nice job Green Knight, though I am weary of the deicide. It was very well thought out. As for who would take his place... Hmm.. who does Gareth Dragonsbane worship? He is the most well known, highest level paladin that I know of. Heck, he defeated an avatar of Orcus, that it's self is a trial worthy of demi god status. He has been activley protecting his people, so the duty portfolio kind of fits... Thats my first thoughts anyway. Especially since WotC is trying to kill off most high level npcs. Or perhaps the obedience portfolio remains empty. Perhaps Hoar might have a shift in personality, and take the justice portfolio. After all he was already a god of poetic justice... But then again, he is a little blood thirsty for the triad. Lol, thats probably why I like him.
AffableDoomwalker 12-19-07, 07:30 PM	Green, great work.
GreenKnight 12-19-07, 07:59 PM	Nice job Green Knight, though I am weary of the deicide. It was very well thought out. Thanks, although in Tyr's case, I'm hoping he just packs up and leaves, rather then being killed. IMO, it'd be pretty cool if there was a short story about some other D&D world somewhere with a portal opening up and Tyr and all his hosts marching through, beginning a new Procession of Justice on that world. As for who would take his place... Hmm.. who does Gareth Dragonsbane worship? Google says Ilmater. I doubt WoTC cares about killing him, though, as the Chosen seem to be their main problem. Besides, the timeline advancement will take him out. As for who to take Torm's place in the Triad, I think Bahamut would be a good choice. He needs to be better integrated into the Faerunian Pantheon, anyway (Especially with the influx of Dragonborn into the Realms). The House of the Triad is as good a place as any. If it were up to me, the House of the Triad would look like this (With the first three forming the actual Triad): TORM (GREATER GOD) The True God, the Just God, the Vigilant God SYMBOL: ? ALIGNMENT: Lawful Good PORTFOLIO: Justice, Duty, Protection ILMATER (LESSER GOD) The Crying God, the Broken God SYMBOL: Pair of white hands bound at the wrist with a red cord ALIGNMENT: Lawful Good PORTFOLIO: Endurance, Suffering, Martyrdom, Perserverance BAHAMUT (LESSER GOD) The Platinum Dragon, King of the Good Dragons, the North Wind SYMBOL: Star above a milky nebula ALIGNMENT: Lawful Good PORTFOLIO: Wind, Wisdom, Good Dragons SIAMORPHE (DEMIGOD) The Divine Right SYMBOL: Silver chalice with a golden sun on the side ALIGNMENT: Lawful Neutral PORTFOLIO: Nobles, rightful rule of nobility, royalty HOAR (DEMIGOD) The Doombringer, Lord of Three Thunders SYMBOL: Black-gloved hand holding a coin with a two-faced head ALIGNMENT: Lawful Neutral PORTFOLIO: Revenge, Retribution, Poetic Justice NOOB GOD (DEMIGOD) ? SYMBOL: ? ALIGNMENT: Lawful Good PORTFOLIO: Loyalty, Obedience Gareth Dragonsbane would be a good choice for a Demigod of Loyalty and Obedience. He worships Ilmater and also helped out Bahamut. So if Bahamut does join the House of the Triad, then Gareth is already loyal to the two of them. Add in Torm and there you go. Perfect go-to-guy for the Triad. It'd be even better if Tiamat ends up serving Bane (Lawful Evil and needs a home, too, so where else will she go?), as Gareth Dragonsbane also killed an avatar of hers. And of course, she also despises Bahamut. I also think it'd be nice if a worshipper of Torm did end up finding Chalsembyr, his home country, and was elevated to the rank of Demigod as a reward (Doesn't mean the location of Chalsembyr will become public knowledge, of course). Well, we'll see. Either way, I like the idea of the Triad being composed of the Lion, the Martyr, and the Dragon.
AffableDoomwalker 12-19-07, 09:16 PM	I think it would be a nice twist if they made Keldorn Firecam a demigod/lesser god of Paladins, he was one hell of a Torm-worshiping guy, and the end of his story in the Baldur's Gate pretty much says he dies and goes to Torm heaven.
Storm_Silverhand 12-20-07, 12:18 AM	Heya, As for who to take Torm's place in the Triad, I think Bahamut would be a good choice. He needs to be better integrated into the Faerunian Pantheon, anyway (Especially with the influx of Dragonborn into the Realms). The House of the Triad is as good a place as any. If it were up to me, the House of the Triad would look like this (With the first three forming the actual Triad): Has Dragonborn in the Realms actually been confirmed? I personally hope they leave Bahamut for the Dragons. (Actually I'd prefer they didn't make any changes to the pantheons of the Realms.)
GreenKnight 12-20-07, 01:26 AM	The beginning of the entry for 1374 in Grand History of the Realms seems to hint at that. Besides, it's doubtful that they'd have Dragonborn as a core PC race in the PHB and not have them as a playable option in the Realms. Their history will be different, but they'll be in there. And according to Dragons of Faerun, Bahamut's worship is expanding beyond just dragons.
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 01:28 AM	And according to Dragons of Faerun, Bahamut's worship is expanding beyond just dragons. -His worship was never limited to just Dragons- hence the Knight of Bahamut PrC, or whatever it was called.
GreenKnight 12-20-07, 01:31 AM	Yeah, I was going to point out that Prestige Class from the Book of Exalted Deeds. And the text in Dragons of Faerun says that the planting of the Tree-Gem sparked renewed interest in his teachings among nondragon races. Whatever the case, I'm looking forward to seeing what they do with Bahamut in 4E. I just hope he's a Lesser God, and not a Demigod.
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 01:42 AM	-I never really gave him much thought, but Bahamut is a pretty cool gu...Dragon. -One wonders, though, what he really thinks of Torm having a Gold Dragon as a mount. Now, that just gave me a cool image in my head- Torm riding Bahamut, ready to raise holy hell (literally), and kick Bane's ass.
Stigger 12-20-07, 01:47 AM	:blink: Now that would be a fight not to miss...
Selvarin 12-20-07, 02:24 AM	Unless they retcon Damara out, etc....then Bahamut will be a viable faith. A lesser power in all likelihood.
GreenKnight 12-20-07, 02:36 AM	Now, that just gave me a cool image in my head- Torm riding Bahamut, ready to raise holy hell (literally), and kick Bane's ass. Heh, what if Bane was riding Tiamat, too? :D Seriously, I really like the idea someone else floated around here of a Dark Triad. Only difference is I'd prefer to have it with Bane at the top, along with Tiamat and Loviatar (Throw in Gargauth, Talona, and Bhaal as the Demigods serving him in the Barrens of Doom and Despair). http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/282231/2259908Triad5.jpg
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-20-07, 03:15 PM	deleted
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-20-07, 03:17 PM	Heya, Has Dragonborn in the Realms actually been confirmed? I think Rich said that all the core races will be incorporated into the Realms.
Suin Bahhar 12-20-07, 03:36 PM	Nay, I trust no stinkin' lizzards.
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 03:38 PM	Seriously, I really like the idea someone else floated around here of a Dark Triad. Only difference is I'd prefer to have it with Bane at the top, along with Tiamat and Loviatar (Throw in Gargauth, Talona, and Bhaal as the Demigods serving him in the Barrens of Doom and Despair). -A Dark Triad would be cool, but asides for Bane, there aren't too many other good candidates. Evil constantly bickers, and with all the possible in-fighting, I'd think the roster would rotate a lot. Bane would definitley be at the top, and in control, however.
Selvarin 12-20-07, 03:51 PM	-A Dark Triad would be cool, but asides for Bane, there aren't too many other good candidates. Evil constantly bickers, and with all the possible in-fighting, I'd think the roster would rotate a lot. Bane would definitley be at the top, and in control, however. Well in 1e FR Bane and his ilk were lumped with others known as "The Dark Gods" *dun dun dun dunnnnnnnnnn* (sound effects) But that also included Myrkhul, Shar, etc. etc... Bane + Loviatar + ...? I'd have to think about that a bit. Loviatar works well literally as his right 'whip' but neither Talona nor Mask (nor many others) would serve well as his left-hand man. Unless Cyric had a proxy deity-servant assisting him while imprisoned and Bane somehow intimidated that proxy deity-servant to serve him instead. Ohhhh that would tick Cyric off, but a good way to demonstrate The Dark Lord's greater mastery of some godly machinations. Or maybe Hoar survives as Bane's servant. Losing him to Bane would frost old Sharry a bit. One wants to rule the world and one (ultimately) wants to destroy it. Gareth Dragonsbane will be dead by the beginning of the Nu-Realms start time. At the very least he will be a national hero, at best a saint serving Bahamut's continuing interests in that part of the world...which would be interesting.
msatran 12-20-07, 04:03 PM	He worships Illmater, not Bahamut. See the Bloodstone Lands sourcebook from 2e, the H series of modules, and 3eFRCS.
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 04:05 PM	Or maybe Hoar survives as Bane's servant. Losing him to Bane would frost old Sharry a bit. One wants to rule the world and one (ultimately) wants to destroy it. -I was thinking about if Hoar could be included, but he isn't exactly evil, and certainly not evil enough to be included in the 'Dark Triad'.
GreenKnight 12-20-07, 04:12 PM	-A Dark Triad would be cool, but asides for Bane, there aren't too many other good candidates. Evil constantly bickers, and with all the possible in-fighting, I'd think the roster would rotate a lot. Bane would definitley be at the top, and in control, however. Well, we're talking Lawful Evil gods, so they shouldn't be bickering the way NE or CE evil ones would. Although Loviatar may get static from the likes of Talona, who despises her. And if Bhaal were to find his way back to the land of the living as a servant of Bane, then he may not be to happy that his former servant is now his superior. -I was thinking about if Hoar could be included, but he isn't exactly evil, and certainly not evil enough to be included in the 'Dark Triad'. Yeah, that's probably the same reason why Helm was never part of the Triad, even though he was more powerful then Torm. He was Lawful Neutral and not Lawful Good. Likewise, if there were a 'Dark Triad', they'd all have to be Lawful Evil, like Bane. He can have servants of other alignments of course, but his chief lieutenants should be the same alignment as him.
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 04:18 PM	Well, we're talking Lawful Evil gods, so they shouldn't be bickering the way NE or CE evil ones would. Yeah, that's probably the same reason why Helm was never part of the Triad, even though he was more powerful then Torm. He was Lawful Neutral and not Lawful Good. Likewise, if there were a 'Dark Triad', they'd all have to be Lawful Evil, like Bane. He can have servants of other alignments of course, but his chief lieutenants should be the same alignment as him. -True, but have you ever been in the room when two or more people who think that they're the boss, and in charge? :cool: -See, the problem, I think, is that among evil deities, there is a lack of "subservient" LE individuals. They're all after the power, unless someone can "literally" beat them down- Bane. The other two members of the Dark Triad would be grudging members, coveting Bane's power, and likely plotting against him- very Sith like.
GreenKnight 12-20-07, 04:26 PM	-True, but have you ever been in the room when two or more people who think that they're the boss, and in charge? :cool: Yes. And much like Bane, I whipped out a mace, bashed their skulls in, and stepped on their necks every time they gave me lip. :D -See, the problem, I think, is that among evil deities, there is a lack of "subservient" LE individuals. Loviatar seems like a subservient deity to me. Well, maybe not in EVERY way ;), but I think she'd be fine with taking orders from a Greater God. After all, she did serve Bhaal back when he was around. I'm not certain, but I don't imagine her giving him a whole lot of static. They're all after the power, unless someone can "literally" beat them down- Bane. The other two members of the Dark Triad would be grudging members, coveting Bane's power, and likely plotting against him- very Sith like. Yeah, that would likely be true of Tiamat, who's been a Greater God, before, and wants to be one, again. But then again, she may find it more valuable to have solid allies in her fight against Bahamut, especially if Bahamut also finds some pretty powerful allies by joining the House of the Triad. So in essence, so long as Bahamut is in the Triad, that keeps her in line, as plotting against Bane would only weaken her hand against her real enemy.
Selvarin 12-20-07, 04:29 PM	Correction noted. Ilmater is boring as a wig on a mannequin, no wonder I forgot about that one. Why shouldn't he die as well? :P As for Hoar, from the sound of it he's become indifferent to good and bad, so getting out of Shar's clutches and serving someone with a more lawful bent might feel like a 'step up' for Hoar. Remember, he's LN not LG. So, considering his bitterness, etc., he could complete his transformation as Bane's servant.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-20-07, 04:29 PM	Gareth Dragonsbane will be dead by the beginning of the Nu-Realms start time. Unless he extended his lifespan somehow.:)
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 05:25 PM	Yes. And much like Bane, I whipped out a mace, bashed their skulls in, and stepped on their necks every time they gave me lip. :D -Remind me never to stay in the same room with you for very long. ;) Loviatar seems like a subservient deity to me. Well, maybe not in EVERY way ;), but I think she'd be fine with taking orders from a Greater God. After all, she did serve Bhaal back when he was around. I'm not certain, but I don't imagine her giving him a whole lot of static. Yeah, that would likely be true of Tiamat, who's been a Greater God, before, and wants to be one, again. But then again, she may find it more valuable to have solid allies in her fight against Bahamut, especially if Bahamut also finds some pretty powerful allies by joining the House of the Triad. So in essence, so long as Bahamut is in the Triad, that keeps her in line, as plotting against Bane would only weaken her hand against her real enemy. -We all know that "Axis of Evil" style alliance never last for prolonged periods of time.
GreenKnight 12-20-07, 06:19 PM	-We all know that "Axis of Evil" style alliance never last for prolonged periods of time. Probably why I like the idea. That's a cliche' that I'd like to see broken.
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 06:20 PM	Probably why I like the idea. That's a cliche' that I'd like to see broken. -Although, back in the day, Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal had a "Axis of Evil" kinda thing going.
Stigger 12-20-07, 06:22 PM	Given that its involving people who don't have each others best interests at heart, and who are basically just out for themselves (however they choose to define that), it's not so much a cliche as a truism...
AffableDoomwalker 12-20-07, 07:33 PM	I wonder where Fzoul will fit into all of this...
Selvarin 12-20-07, 08:57 PM	Think 'banelich'. Those were cool. Then again he's kept around through the years so who knows...
Kenzuki 12-20-07, 09:10 PM	-Although, back in the day, Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal had a "Axis of Evil" kinda thing going. They were my favorite group of evil deities because they complimented each other so very well. Bane ruled as a Tyrant. Bhaal killed your enemies. Myrkul ruled over the dead or could raise them as undying servants. Seriously though, the "Dark Gods" have been lacking for some time now. Bringing back Bane was a start, now return Bhaal as the Demigod of Murder as his Divine Hitman and bring Myrkul back as well, Velsharoon is just a hack anyway.
GreenKnight 12-20-07, 09:16 PM	Bhaal and Myrkul coming back would be awesome. Although in the case of Velsharoon, I think it'd be neat if he were kept around, but pressed into Myrkul's service. Myrkul's gonna need some punks to do his bidding should he ever make a triumphant return. ;)
Kenzuki 12-20-07, 09:23 PM	Bhaal and Myrkul coming back would be awesome. Although in the case of Velsharoon, I think it'd be neat if he were kept around, but pressed into Myrkul's service. Myrkul's gonna need some punks to do his bidding should he ever make a triumphant return. ;) True, though I just kinda figured since Velsharoon is looking for the Crown of Horns and since that has Myrkul's essence in it and his intelligence or whatever and is supposedly trying to revive him. I wonder what if Velsharoon actually was stupid enough to try to wear it....would Myrkul burst out of him ala Bane or take him over and emerge and reclaime all his lost portfolios minus the two Kelemvor has and take Fall from Drizzt's bimbo goddess and become supream master of undeath. Kiaransalee's death means he has no rivals right? Myrkul could even be pictured wearing the Crown of Horns hehe.
Lord Karsus 12-20-07, 09:24 PM	-While resurrecting Bhaal is certainly a viable scenario, elevating Myrkul once more is not. His essence is in the Crown of Horns, and it's been stated that he'd rather not become a deity again, as there are much less restrictions imposed on him being a sentient artifact instead of a deity.
Storm_Silverhand 12-21-07, 07:43 AM	Heya, ...take Fall from Drizzt's bimbo goddess... Bimbo? Mielikki is not a bimbo. :mad:
msatran 12-21-07, 07:55 AM	Yeah, I have to agree, there.
Stigger 12-21-07, 08:00 AM	No... not a bimbo in the slightest.
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 11:58 AM	-Hey, I like the underdog, what can I say. Mielikki is a bimbo, all the way.
SmartPaladin 12-21-07, 06:16 PM	-Hey, I like the underdog, what can I say. Mielikki is a bimbo, all the way. Well, if you spend as much time in the Woods and the Wilds as she does, what use do you really have for clothing? 'sides, it's not like the animales really care. They all think we're wierd for putting things on over our fur. If they're not wondering where our "fur" is anyway. :P
Stigger 12-21-07, 07:34 PM	:P @ LK
Lord Karsus 12-21-07, 07:51 PM	:P @ LK -At least I didn't say she was slutty or whatever it was that we were talking about the time a few weeks ago. ;)
Stigger 12-21-07, 08:06 PM	That's why I didn't kick you in the crotch. :P ;)
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 02:32 AM	No... not a bimbo in the slightest. That's right. Tymora's the bimbo! :P I kid, I kid, don't hit me. :surrender
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 02:57 AM	That's right. Tymora's the bimbo! :P -Was she the one we were talking about?
sfdragon 12-22-07, 05:55 AM	dont know, but yeah tymora is a bimbo, her and her sister both. Mielikki is no bimbo
Magadon 12-22-07, 06:11 AM	im gonna miss Tyr with his nub and his crazy mannerisms...but not that bad.
Storm_Silverhand 12-22-07, 07:37 AM	Heya, Could we please stop referring to female deities by derogatory terms? If it doesn't stop, I'm going to start calling the male deities things like dicks, morons, idiots, and dimwits. :mad:
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 07:49 AM	Heya, Could we please stop referring to female deities by derogatory terms? If it doesn't stop, I'm going to start calling the male deities things like dicks, morons, idiots, and dimwits. :mad: By all means, go right ahead. Start with Cyric. :D
Kenzuki 12-22-07, 09:49 AM	Heya, Could we please stop referring to female deities by derogatory terms? If it doesn't stop, I'm going to start calling the male deities things like dicks, morons, idiots, and dimwits. :mad: Tyr was a dick for killing Helm, he totally freaked out. I mean my god it's TYMORA for pete's sakes! If he'd have freaked out about Sune or Sharess, or hell Beshaba I could have understood, they are hot. But TYMORA? Way to go Tyr you just lost TWO of your allies in Helm and Ilmater there buddy!
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 01:52 PM	-Yeah, I'm going to have to agree with those assessments. -Next time someone complains about the "millions" of deities who "walk all over Faerūn", we're going to have to correct them, and say, "Nah, none of that's true. We just got a bunch of dicks and bimbos, that's all". Heh heh heh...
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 01:53 PM	Could we please stop referring to female deities by derogatory terms? -We're just talking about Mielikki, and to a limited degree, Tymora. All the other female deities are cool.
GreenKnight 12-22-07, 02:00 PM	Disregarding the whole bad writing argument, yeah, Tyr's a schmuck. First he drives off Siamorphe, then he kills Helm, and burns his bridges with Ilmater for good measure. Geeze, what's next? Is he gonna kick an old lady down a flight of stairs and slap a newborn with his one good hand?
Lord Karsus 12-22-07, 02:05 PM	-You know, as I think about it more, I liked Helm. He embodies that "justice no matter what", "the ends justify the means" attitude that I like (For example, I'm in the minority that is happy with the path Jacen Solo has chosen, and roots for him). Torm, I've always liked. Ilmater, eh. Tyr, same thing. All this, though, has gotten me to disliking Tyr, to a degree.
Storm_Silverhand 12-22-07, 06:44 PM	Heya, -We're just talking about Mielikki, and to a limited degree, Tymora. All the other female deities are cool. Bah. I actually like Mielikki, and Tymora's my favorite... (I don't think there's any female deity I don't like, really...) She's Lady Luck! If that's not cool, I don't know what is... :) @GreenKnight, Cyric is a dick, a small one. ;) :P :D
Kenzuki 12-22-07, 06:48 PM	Tymora shouldn't have let Sune give her away like a piece of meat then....I would have told Sune where to stick it. This is all Sune's fault!
GothicDan 12-22-07, 07:32 PM	Could we please stop referring to female deities by derogatory terms? If it doesn't stop, I'm going to start calling the male deities things like dicks, morons, idiots, and dimwits. As others have said, go ahead. :) Lathander is a bit of a bimbo. An Adonis Bimbo sexy drool.. Er, but a bimbo nonetheless. And liking deities solely because of gender sort of disturbs me, still. ;) But then again, I'm a pretty indiscriminate person. I hardly even know what I like, sometimes.
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 01:01 AM	She's Lady Luck! If that's not cool, I don't know what is... :) -Hmm...What's cool? I'm going to have to say Chaotic Good Drow who wield two scimitars and rebel against their heritage. That's cool! And liking deities solely because of gender sort of disturbs me, still. ;) -Everyone has their fair amount of sheeps.
sfdragon 12-23-07, 02:19 AM	Tyr's a freek Tymora's a dunce Sune is an addict Mielikki is a nice lady Red Knight's a brain Tempus is axe for brains Mystra's a dead ding aling Ilmater is pain Beshaba secretly likes green tea is this better?
Lord Karsus 12-23-07, 02:20 AM	-Why is Beshaba's like for green tea a secret, I wonder...
johnkretzer 12-23-07, 07:26 AM	Disregarding the whole bad writing argument, yeah, Tyr's a schmuck. First he drives off Siamorphe, then he kills Helm, and burns his bridges with Ilmater for good measure. Geeze, what's next? Is he gonna kick an old lady down a flight of stairs and slap a newborn with his one good hand? um...considering the fact these are fictional characters it is sorta hard to disregard the bad writing.
Kenzuki 12-23-07, 07:31 AM	um...considering the fact these are fictional characters it is sorta hard to disregard the bad writing. We all know you have a shrine of Finder in your closet mate....
MaskedOne 12-23-07, 10:23 AM	Heya, Could we please stop referring to female deities by derogatory terms? If it doesn't stop, I'm going to start calling the male deities things like dicks, morons, idiots, and dimwits. :mad: Feel free, I insult or support the insulting of all idiots equally and without prejudice.
GothicDan 12-23-07, 11:19 AM	MaskedOne and I are in the same FR political party. Down with idiocy.
Kenzuki 12-23-07, 03:06 PM	I'll insult whatever fictional god I want to! Like for example, Shar is a big doo doo head!:D
sfdragon 12-23-07, 03:31 PM	So do I. for instance anhur eats dung
SmartPaladin 12-23-07, 03:39 PM	I'll insult whatever fictional god I want to! Like for example, Shar is a big doo doo head!:D And Emo! Granted, so's Hoar now that I think about it... Though I wanna know when Ilmater and Loviatar are going to come out and say yes as a matter of fact they are seeing each other. :P Power to the S&M Deities! Er... :angelhide
GreenKnight 12-23-07, 03:43 PM	I wonder what their safety word is?
sfdragon 12-23-07, 03:48 PM	I wonder what their safety word is? its likely to be Pain
SmartPaladin 12-23-07, 03:52 PM	No, no. Bananna. Like from Family Guy. :P
Kenzuki 12-23-07, 04:24 PM	Dang, Loviator and Ilmater WOULD make a good couple wouldn't they....She likes giving it and he likes taking it!
Storm_Silverhand 12-23-07, 06:55 PM	Heya, Tymora shouldn't have let Sune give her away like a piece of meat then....I would have told Sune where to stick it. This is all Sune's fault! That's because the designers made her act out of character. In fact, they made all the deities involved act out of character - Tymora, Sune, Tyr, and Helm. All of them. That is why I don't like that plot arc. The Sune I know would never have come up with such a scheme in the first place - she's not the goddess of marriage, she's the goddess of love. And an arranged politically motivated loveless marriage is anathema to her. The Tymora I know might have gone along with it initially, if she thought she could get a laugh out of it, but she certainly would not have gone to the House of the Triad so meekly in light of what happened. The whole idea of Tyr killing Helm over her would probably have turned her right off. The Tyr I know would never have dueled Helm to the death, because adultery in the Realms isn't as big a thing as people seem to think it is on Earth (and even we don't punish adulterers with death). He might have dueled to first blood, but that would have been the extent of it... And that's only if Tyr had solid evidence that something was going on between Tymora and Helm and thought it was Just. (Given what I know of Tymora, Helm's too staid and stick in the mud to really interest her much beyond playing a trick or three on him in an effort to get the stick out of the mud, so to speak). The Helm I know would not have made a play for Tymora's affection, and would not have given any reason for Tyr to doubt him. Helm is a deity of his word.
Stigger 12-23-07, 07:18 PM	Argh, tis true what Zandi says...
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-23-07, 09:27 PM	Heya, The Tymora I know might have gone along with it initially, if she thought she could get a laugh out of it, but she certainly would not have gone to the House of the Triad so meekly in light of what happened. The whole idea of Tyr killing Helm over her would probably have turned her right off. Yeah, that was probably the least believable aspect of that story. The Tyr I know would never have dueled Helm to the death, because adultery in the Realms isn't as big a thing as people seem to think it is on Earth (and even we don't punish adulterers with death). He might have dueled to first blood, but that would have been the extent of it... And that's only if Tyr had solid evidence that something was going on between Tymora and Helm and thought it was Just. (Given what I know of Tymora, Helm's too staid and stick in the mud to really interest her much beyond playing a trick or three on him in an effort to get the stick out of the mud, so to speak). In my opinion, it wasn't even adultery, since Tyr and Tymora weren't married (at least, the story doesn't say they were at that point). If they *were* married at that point...GEEZ, what a weird marriage!
Kenzuki 12-23-07, 10:11 PM	Heya, That's because the designers made her act out of character. In fact, they made all the deities involved act out of character - Tymora, Sune, Tyr, and Helm. All of them. That is why I don't like that plot arc. The Sune I know would never have come up with such a scheme in the first place - she's not the goddess of marriage, she's the goddess of love. And an arranged politically motivated loveless marriage is anathema to her. The Tymora I know might have gone along with it initially, if she thought she could get a laugh out of it, but she certainly would not have gone to the House of the Triad so meekly in light of what happened. The whole idea of Tyr killing Helm over her would probably have turned her right off. The Tyr I know would never have dueled Helm to the death, because adultery in the Realms isn't as big a thing as people seem to think it is on Earth (and even we don't punish adulterers with death). He might have dueled to first blood, but that would have been the extent of it... And that's only if Tyr had solid evidence that something was going on between Tymora and Helm and thought it was Just. (Given what I know of Tymora, Helm's too staid and stick in the mud to really interest her much beyond playing a trick or three on him in an effort to get the stick out of the mud, so to speak). The Helm I know would not have made a play for Tymora's affection, and would not have given any reason for Tyr to doubt him. Helm is a deity of his word. Apparantly you didn't know them as well as you thought huh?
Selvarin 12-23-07, 10:31 PM	Apparantly you didn't know them as well as you thought huh? I wouldn't have had much question about the authorship, but after reading how Helm's death played out (and everything connected to it) I lost confidence in the writing of those in charge. I'm not a Greenwood disciple but he would've done a much better job of explaining how Helm was killed other than Tyr suffering from a lack of communication with Helm... Besides, why would he have needed Helm to handle the correspondence and all that? What, did the FRDT fire his celestial staff beforehand? It was poor writing even if no one on the team wants to admit to it, and because of that I had to ignore the blow-by-blow account and just settle on the facts: Helm was killed, Tyr was somehow maneuvered into doing so. All the matchmaking mumbo-jumbo's in the trash bin as far as I'm concerned, written by some tipsy cherubs hanging halfway out of the World Tree before it was cut down in preparation for the House of 4th Edition. :rolleyes:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-23-07, 10:36 PM	Besides, why would he have needed Helm to handle the correspondence and all that? What, did the FRDT fire his celestial staff beforehand? Tyr wanted to woo Tymora in a SUPER old-fashioned way where he doesn't actually talk with her face-to-face.:rolleyes:
Selvarin 12-23-07, 10:51 PM	Of course, because Tyr (despite himself) is so gosh-darned bashful. Heh. "I can judge multitudes of mortals, command armies of solars and planetars, but whenever Tymora's around I get tongue-tied...Hey, Helm. You're good with the ladies--better than me at any rate. Feel like being my wingman on this?" "Uh sure Tyr. Anything for you. What's the worst that could possibly happen?" *the two politely chuckle, never noticing Cyric in the shadows twirling his newly-grown mustache* I wonder if the Ennies give Raspberry Awards for Worst Gameplot Shoehorn?
Storm_Silverhand 12-24-07, 07:33 AM	Heya, Apparantly you didn't know them as well as you thought huh? I know them fine, and I know them enough to know the plot doesn't work on a number of different levels. Same can't be said for you, huh?
Kenzuki 12-24-07, 11:23 AM	Heya, I know them fine, and I know them enough to know the plot doesn't work on a number of different levels. Same can't be said for you, huh? But it did happen *shrugs*.
Alediran 12-24-07, 11:54 AM	Of course, because Tyr (despite himself) is so gosh-darned bashful. Heh. "I can judge multitudes of mortals, command armies of solars and planetars, but whenever Tymora's around I get tongue-tied...Hey, Helm. You're good with the ladies--better than me at any rate. Feel like being my wingman on this?" "Uh sure Tyr. Anything for you. What's the worst that could possibly happen?" *the two politely chuckle, never noticing Cyric in the shadows twirling his newly-grown mustache* I wonder if the Ennies give Raspberry Awards for Worst Gameplot Shoehorn? :rofl:
Storm_Silverhand 12-24-07, 05:25 PM	Heya, But it did happen *shrugs*. Bah. It was bad writing, and if you can't see that... then you must have had a bit much eggnog. :P Happy holidays. :)
Derren S. 12-24-07, 05:45 PM	And in the next episode of Crystal Sphere 90210... Tiamat is in love with Moradin but he has a secret crush for Sehanine Moonbow. Will Talos find out that Chauntea is his sister before the wedding? Will Bane have his coming out and declare Cyric his love? Will Illmater find out that Lolths children are not from him? Will J.R. Ewing ascend? *I don't take any responsibility for any disturbing mental images created by this post or any damages they inflict. PS: If any of this happens in a future FR novels I want to remind you all that you should hate the author and not me for it.....
Kenzuki 12-25-07, 12:55 AM	Heya, Bah. It was bad writing, and if you can't see that... then you must have had a bit much eggnog. :P Happy holidays. :) Bad writting it may be lass, but canon it is nonetheless. Now you can change it to suit your campaign of course and I encourage you to do it because it sucks mightily indeed, but it's officially what happened in the Realms.... Also a question concerning Tyr, can he see anything being he's blind? Or does being a god mean that Ao struck him blind for nothing?
Selvarin 12-25-07, 01:07 AM	Also a question concerning Tyr, can he see anything being he's blind? Or does being a god mean that Ao struck him blind for nothing? Argh...*reading the reason in F&P*...That was lame of them as well. Striking him blind just because he didn't see the Tablets of Fate get stolen or whatever. Shouldn't Helm have been protecting them instead?
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 01:10 AM	Tiamat is in love with Moradin but he has a secret crush for Sehanine Moonbow. -Sune must somehow be involved. Will Talos find out that Chauntea is his sister before the wedding? -Let's hope so, for the sake of the kids. Will Bane have his coming out and declare Cyric his love? -Not if Cyric's former lover, Valkur, has anything to say about it! Will Illmater find out that Lolths children are not from him? -Being as the kids have eight legs, I think he already might have a clue...Poor guy. Will J.R. Ewing ascend? -Well, with all of those deities being "demoted", there sure is a lot of "Divine Power" floating around. J.R. is about as good a candidate as anyone to inherit it all. Ao will be replaced with J.R.
Storm_Silverhand 12-25-07, 02:17 AM	Heya, Bad writting it may be lass, but canon it is nonetheless. Now you can change it to suit your campaign of course and I encourage you to do it because it sucks mightily indeed, but it's officially what happened in the Realms.... *sigh* You're right. :weep: Also a question concerning Tyr, can he see anything being he's blind? Or does being a god mean that Ao struck him blind for nothing? I think the blindness is symbolic. Gods have more than just physical senses, after all. The physical blindness is supposed to be a constant reminder to Tyr of his error.
Lord Karsus 12-25-07, 04:13 AM	I think the blindness is symbolic. Gods have more than just physical senses, after all. The physical blindness is supposed to be a constant reminder to Tyr of his error. -Yup. "Justice is blind", and all that good stuff.
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-25-07, 01:56 PM	- -Not if Cyric's former lover, Valkur, has anything to say about it! :rofl: I am curious, though--was it Tyr's job or something to make sure the tablets didn't get stolen? Helm is the "Watcher" god, after all, not Tyr.
Stigger 12-26-07, 04:18 AM	Yeah, justice has a lot to do with guarding what are red herrings in the first place... unless maybe that blindness was also inflicting 'deaf & dumb' along with it, knowing it was going to be needed to make this plot arc work out...
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 04:43 AM	Yeah, justice has a lot to do with guarding what are red herrings in the first place... unless maybe that blindness was also inflicting 'deaf & dumb' along with it, knowing it was going to be needed to make this plot arc work out... -Come to think of it, Tyr does like pinball. Being a deity for only a moment, I did see the guy hanging out in the corner, playing pinball with petitioners from SoHo down to Brighton (Beach).
Rauric 12-26-07, 08:26 AM	Just because it is in the History/lore doesn't mean you need to use it if you hate it or it does not work for you you. If the reason is totally off the wall when I buy the main book I will rework it. My old campaign had a whole Helm thing going on. Though it was about corruption within the Church and the dual Papacy problem I created so this could work out. Certain high ups were using the Dusk Brotherhood (Cyricist assassin guild) to make things "better" for towns. When I mean better I mean more secure. When I say secure they would kill off weak officials that were so grandfathered in or loved by the public that they could never be voted out. All the people who got killed were weak people who couldn't keep their areas truely safe. It started in Nesme where the old 1st speaker and her anti religion nonsense got the town sacked and taken over by giants and trolls (see RAS' novels). A new 1st speaker was brought in with the backing of the Church of Helm and Waukeen. The town started to get the faith back in there gain and things got better. The Pcs were the main reason for the towns resurgence, and two of them wee clerics. One a cleric/pally of Helm and the other a Windwalker of Shaundukul. The pally/cleric didn't realize when he was trying to uncover the murder of the speaker he was going against his Church. He was quickly chastised and given low asignments. Even though he was a hero to the people his asignments grew worse and he had no clue why. (Player was a bit dim). Even though the Helm player cannot make it to my games anymore I wanted to explore all that Intrigue in the next Chapter. It is a tough call to make. I will see what comes out in AUG and work through it. The cleric of Shaundukul was being groomed for big things. If his god gets no write up I am still going to use him and his church. No big deal in the end with that part. The Helm thing may be trickier.
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 08:58 AM	Just because it is in the History/lore doesn't mean you need to use it if you hate it or it does not work for you you. If the reason is totally off the wall when I buy the main book I will rework it. -Just going to play devil's advocate (though, I do believe a lot of what I am going to say here), but where is the point where one draws the line. This sort of mindset almost gives "them" license to do whatever they want, regardless of...well, everything. "Well, if you don't like the fact that Lolth cloned Gruumsh, since she's had his eye all this time, you can rework it." "Well, if you don't like the fact that Elves are now called Gnomes, actual Gnomes don't exist anymore, Humans are called Genomes, not to be confuse with Gnomes, which are Elves, not Gnomes, and Dwarves are actually Giants, and Giants are actually Gnomes, not the Elven version, even though Gnomes don't exist anymore, you can rework it". Where do you draw the metaphorical line, and lose confidence in what's going on?
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-26-07, 11:22 AM	-Just going to play devil's advocate (though, I do believe a lot of what I am going to say here), but where is the point where one draws the line. This sort of mindset almost gives "them" license to do whatever they want, regardless of...well, everything. "Well, if you don't like the fact that Lolth cloned Gruumsh, since she's had his eye all this time, you can rework it." "Well, if you don't like the fact that Elves are now called Gnomes, actual Gnomes don't exist anymore, Humans are called Genomes, not to be confuse with Gnomes, which are Elves, not Gnomes, and Dwarves are actually Giants, and Giants are actually Gnomes, not the Elven version, even though Gnomes don't exist anymore, you can rework it". Again, you have me laughing out loud. :rofl: You make a good point too. Although, I definitely agree with changing or outright deleting lore that one doesn't like.:)
Lord Karsus 12-26-07, 11:23 AM	Again, you have me laughing out loud. :rofl: You make a good point too. -I figure that's the best way to get a point across. :)
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-26-07, 11:35 AM	-I figure that's the best way to get a point across. :) With me, being funny definitely helps.:)
Alediran 12-26-07, 12:00 PM	I'm wondering what would happen to Karsus if Sune dated him.
GothicDan 12-26-07, 12:03 PM	He'd be very happy. And tired.
Aerostoth 12-26-07, 12:04 PM	Sorry about this. I know this post has nothing to do with this forum, but this was the busiest thread. What forum could I get help with designing a homemade villian?
Storm_Silverhand 12-26-07, 05:25 PM	Heya, Sorry about this. I know this post has nothing to do with this forum, but this was the busiest thread. What forum could I get help with designing a homemade villian? Depends on exactly what you want... If it's stats, then here (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=339). If you want help designing a character from a background/role playing perspective, make a thread here (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=340), but if you want it to be specifically Realmsy, I think you could make a thread here (http://forums.gleemax.com/forumdisplay.php?f=452).
Gimric 12-26-07, 06:10 PM	MaskedOne and I are in the same FR political party. Down with idiocy. Count this Dwarf amunst yer fine group.
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 01:33 AM	-Most of us probably fit in that group.
Stigger 12-27-07, 04:02 AM	I say up with idiocy... I could use the ego boost at times. :D
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 01:40 PM	I say up with idiocy... I could use the ego boost at times. :D -Sure, you'd feel better at first, but the urge to smash your head on the wall would be so great that you'd eventually give in and do it a few times, bringing you on par with "them". :banghead:
Stigger 12-27-07, 06:59 PM	Nah, that's what things like shotguns were made for... ;) :D
Lord Karsus 12-27-07, 11:06 PM	Nah, that's what things like shotguns were made for... ;) :D -That's also illegal.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-28-07, 12:47 AM	is not illegal if you don't get caught ;)
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 01:28 AM	is not illegal if you don't get caught ;) -Actually, no, it's only illegal if you are a member of the army, and you are performing your duties within bounds. That's the only time murder is legally acceptable. Just a little interesting tidbit. -Other factors, such as 'love killings', or whatever you want to call it- when you walk in on your signifigant other engaging in sexual activity with another individual-, or PMSing can lessen the severity of the sentence you face, but it is always punishable. -Killing someone and not being caught can still land you in prison. Rick Peterson, for example. No one caught him killing his wife, and yet he's in death row, waiting to be executed for the death of his wife and their unborn child.
Selvarin 12-28-07, 01:37 AM	Rick Peterson? Holy Mother of Pearl Scott's twin brother is in jail and they think he's Scott? :eek:
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 01:47 AM	Rick Peterson? Holy Mother of Pearl Scott's twin brother is in jail and they think he's Scott? :eek: :rofl: -Rick deserves to be in prison, waiting to be executed for "fixing Zambrano in fifteen minutes", and causing Kazmir to be traded to Tampa Bay. -But, yes, I meant Scott, not Rick.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-28-07, 02:09 AM	-Actually, no, it's only illegal if you are a member of the army, and you are performing your duties within bounds. That's the only time murder is legally acceptable. ...wow... I was just joking:( and for the record we don't "murder" we "neutralize the threat". Murder: Murder is the unlawful killing of a human person with malice aforethought. Murder is generally distinguished from other forms of homicide by the elements of malice aforethought and the lack of lawful justification. All jurisdictions, ancient and modern, consider it a most serious crime. Most jurisdictions impose a severe penalty for its commission.
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 02:30 AM	...wow... I was just joking:( and for the record we don't "murder" we "neutralize the threat". -I didn't mean it like that. You're right though- bad choice of words. Being a soldier doing their duties, within bounds, is the only place where killing is legally acceptable (In the U.S. Outside, such as Islamic countries, there are all sorts of wacky things- honor killings, for example. None of that counts, though).
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 02:31 AM	I'm wondering what would happen to Karsus if Sune dated him. He'd be very happy. And tired. -Hehehehehe! :rofl: -I just caught that.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-28-07, 02:36 AM	-I didn't mean it like that. You're right though- bad choice of words. Being a soldier doing their duties, within bounds, is the only place where killing is legally acceptable (In the U.S. Outside, such as Islamic countries, there are all sorts of wacky things- honor killings, for example. None of that counts, though). Yup "killing" is the word :ayyyy!: but you know how I am with "politically" correct word when we talk about the military...:rolleyes:
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-28-07, 02:39 AM	-Hehehehehe! :rofl: -I just caught that. For the record (and to be gossiper:D) I think Alediran wanted to say Rino instead of Sune....:P
Stigger 12-28-07, 06:39 AM	Depends on the (apparent) circumstances as to whether its illegal or not... plenty of ways to do it in Texas really.
Alediran 12-28-07, 08:24 AM	For the record (and to be gossiper:D) I think Alediran wanted to say Rino instead of Sune....:P Smart guy. Take a cookie. Any person that can understand the meaning behind the words is to be considered an intelligent person.
msatran 12-28-07, 09:47 AM	-Actually, no, it's only illegal if you are a member of the army, and you are performing your duties within bounds. That's the only time murder is legally acceptable. Just a little interesting tidbit. -Other factors, such as 'love killings', or whatever you want to call it- when you walk in on your signifigant other engaging in sexual activity with another individual-, or PMSing can lessen the severity of the sentence you face, but it is always punishable. -Killing someone and not being caught can still land you in prison. Rick Peterson, for example. No one caught him killing his wife, and yet he's in death row, waiting to be executed for the death of his wife and their unborn child. Rick Peterson aside, it is possible in Georgia, if you can prove infidelity, to kill your wife without recrimination.
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 09:55 AM	Rick Peterson aside, it is possible in Georgia, if you can prove infidelity, to kill your wife without recrimination. -Simply because it's George, I might believe it. http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/georgia/
Alediran 12-28-07, 10:11 AM	-Simply because it's George, I might believe it. http://www.dumblaws.com/laws/united-states/georgia/ Strange there isn't an Argentina section of dumb laws, although I understand the reasons, because if they tried to make it, they would die laughing. More than half laws are completely outdated (for example senators must have a declared income set in a currency that has been more years dead than I have been alive)
sfdragon 12-28-07, 10:57 AM	nice off topicness oh and btw the crime scene investigators with all their knowledge couldnt even commit the perfect murder, and the shot gun to the head until he's dead is to cliche and over used. tyr is out give him the boot Raise the GreenKnight to godhood for 4E realms! then raise Lord Karsus as the new god of heavy magic......
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-28-07, 11:37 AM	For the record (and to be gossiper:D) I think Alediran wanted to say Rino instead of Sune....:P And I'm OK with that, too! :rofl:
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-28-07, 11:39 AM	Rick Peterson aside, it is possible in Georgia, if you can prove infidelity, to kill your wife without recrimination. Does it work the other way around? What if the husband is the one who's cheating? Not that I think killing someone should go unpunished, though.
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 12:41 PM	then raise Lord Karsus as the new god of heavy magic...... -And heavy metal! http://emoticons4u.com/music/musik36.gif Karsus and the Tripartites!
GothicDan 12-28-07, 12:43 PM	LK knows nothing of heavy metal.
Alediran 12-28-07, 12:52 PM	LK knows nothing of heavy metal. Iron Maiden is heavy metal (and they are coming to play :D, I bought my ticket yesterday :cool:)
GothicDan 12-28-07, 12:55 PM	Iron Maiden's pretty good.
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 01:07 PM	LK knows nothing of heavy metal. -Sure I do. Lead is a heavy metal, with an atomic weight of 207.2...Meitnerium is another heavy metal...
GothicDan 12-28-07, 01:10 PM	But you know nothing of them. You just know their names! Take more science, fool! How can you expect to be an archmage?!
Lord Karsus 12-28-07, 01:21 PM	But you know nothing of them. You just know their names! Take more science, fool! How can you expect to be an archmage?! -Jeeze, you didn't ask for specifics...Hey, while I might suck at physics, I'm not that bad in chemistry. I haven't studied it for a while, but since my sister is taking it in school, I help her. Often. At first, I look at everything, and I'm like, "Crap, I know this, but I don't." But, once my brain warms up, it all comes flooding back, and it's all good. I got a 94 in High School Chemistry, that's how much I help her. I consider that my grade. Of course, it's lower than my actual High Schol Chemistry grade, but why not? I earned it, didn't I?
GothicDan 12-28-07, 01:25 PM	Chemistry's not science. Chemistry's cooking. All of the recent great 'chemistry' discoveries are done by physicists. The dogma surrounding chemistry is way too linear, streamlined, straight-jacketed.. Who has time to expand one's mind in college and ponder alternative scientific viewpoints when you're too busy being forced to memorize countless lists of rote information for no reason? *Hates chem.*
GreenKnight 12-28-07, 01:26 PM	-Sure I do. Lead is a heavy metal, with an atomic weight of 207.2...Meitnerium is another heavy metal... I fail to be impressed. Now, if you were knowledgeable about heavy water...
Stigger 12-28-07, 02:12 PM	Why would scientific knowledge be requisite for archmageness? Its antithetical to it! All you need is some crystals and a tinfoil hat... and maybe a few cookies and twigs and such... oh, and a bunny. Musn't forget the bunny...
GothicDan 12-28-07, 02:15 PM	What do you think scientists would be if they lived in Faerun? Scientists are people who like to observe the world around them, and learn how to affect it utilizing the observed tendencies and laws... I always saw Druids as evolving eventually into Wizards. Which makes a lot of sense, if you look at some of the duties of real world Druids, and how empirical they were.
Stigger 12-28-07, 02:19 PM	Scientists would be targets for said mages spells... or the beginnings of the Technocracy, one of the two. :D Seriously though, I pretty much agree with you, I'm just being obnoxious. :P
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-28-07, 03:49 PM	Chemistry's not science. Chemistry's cooking. Or is cooking science? ;) Let's lighten this topic up a bit. I'll tell a riddle. What's long and hard and filled with seamen?
GreenKnight 12-28-07, 03:53 PM	What's long and hard and filled with seamen? Submarines!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-28-07, 03:55 PM	Submarines! Right, that's one answer!
GreenKnight 12-28-07, 03:56 PM	Aircraft Carriers!
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-28-07, 04:36 PM	Aircraft Carriers! Good job, that's another correct answer!
Storm_Silverhand 12-28-07, 04:48 PM	Heya, :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
Stigger 12-28-07, 05:20 PM	:blink: Didn't see that one coming... Though I'll take a stab and say pretty much any naval vessel, given the usual dimensions of most ships. :P :D
GreenKnight 12-28-07, 05:32 PM	Well, aside from naval vessels I really can't think of anything else. Though after considering Rinonalyrna's question all day, I thought there might be another answer. But nah, that can't be it. For one thing, if that's the answer she was looking for, then that'd make Rinonalyrna completely shameless. :P Secondly, for that answer to be true, one of the words in the question would've had to have been misspelled, which would make Rinonalyrna a bad speller to boot. Lastly, if that's the case, then it's not an accurate description of the situation, as they don't fill the long hard object so much as they're occasionally... in transit... through the object. :shifty: So nah, that can't be it.
Stigger 12-28-07, 05:38 PM	That thought occurred to me as well, but I dismissed it in very short order... and had enough sense not to to elaborate on it. Oops, guess I just screwed that one up... :D
GothicDan 12-28-07, 09:41 PM	Rino, I haven't told you this lately: <3.
18DELTA 12-28-07, 10:47 PM	Why would scientific knowledge be requisite for archmageness? Its antithetical to it! All you need is some crystals and a tinfoil hat... and maybe a few cookies and twigs and such... oh, and a bunny. Musn't forget the bunny... Don't forget the sack of "Bat Poop"!;) :P
Stigger 12-29-07, 02:09 AM	Its called "guano" you heathen infidel. :P ;)
Lord Karsus 12-29-07, 09:20 AM	-This thread: Whoa!
18DELTA 12-29-07, 10:08 AM	Its called "guano" you heathen infidel. :P ;) :eek: :D
msatran 12-29-07, 01:28 PM	Da nah nah nah nah nahh naaaa.... Batman...and Guano, the boy....uhm....wait a minute...
MarkusTay63 12-29-07, 01:39 PM	Batman...and Guano, the boy....uhm....wait a minute...Oooohhh... is he related to Mr. Hanky? http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f6/Mrhankey.gif :blink: Didn't see that one coming... Though I'll take a stab and say pretty much any naval vessel, given the usual dimensions of most ships. :P :DI'll go one further, and say any Naval aperture, going by what a friend once told me of his time in the Navy... After all, the Village People didn't just make that song up... :P
Stigger 12-29-07, 02:14 PM	That's icky... funny... but icky...
Lord Karsus 12-29-07, 02:17 PM	-...So, long live Torm. Long live Karsus.
Stigger 12-29-07, 02:31 PM	And Death to the Bringers of Brussel Sprouts!
Lord Karsus 12-29-07, 02:35 PM	-Long live Karsus, killer of the Sprouts!
Suin Bahhar 12-29-07, 03:29 PM	Ack! This has gone too far. Sprouts are good for you. Draw steel! :D
18DELTA 12-30-07, 12:28 PM	You...FREAKS!!!;) :P :D :rofl:
Lord Karsus 12-30-07, 12:40 PM	-Hey, watch your tongue, there. Some of us are, but some of us aren't.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 12-30-07, 04:15 PM	-Hey, watch your tongue, there. Some of us are, but some of us aren't. No, no Im...pretty sure he nail it...:embarrass
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 12-30-07, 06:20 PM	Well, aside from naval vessels I really can't think of anything else. Though after considering Rinonalyrna's question all day, I thought there might be another answer. But nah, that can't be it. For one thing, if that's the answer she was looking for, then that'd make Rinonalyrna completely shameless. :P I am. Oh, I am.:) Dan, I heart you too. :D
GreenKnight 12-30-07, 06:30 PM	I am. Oh, I am.:) :devil:
Stigger 12-30-07, 06:36 PM	I am quite proudly a freak... have been most of all of my life. :P :D
Hans_Kelsen 12-30-07, 09:38 PM	I“m a freak, and definitely not a seamen.
Lord Karsus 12-30-07, 11:24 PM	I“m a freak, and definitely not a seamen. -You are also a bard, and many bards are, by nature, seamen.
18DELTA 12-31-07, 01:22 AM	-Hey, watch your tongue, there. Some of us are, but some of us aren't. :rofl: ;) :P :D The Freaks Come Out At Night, The Freaks Come Out At Night!!!:cool:
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 01:58 AM	:rofl: ;) :P :D The Freaks Come Out At Night, The Freaks Come Out At Night!!!:cool: -Or, people who are suffering from insomnia. Like me. I think in the past 5 days (which seem like one continuous thing), I've slept maybe ten hours or so...
Stigger 12-31-07, 01:58 AM	Delta- That explains why you're here then... ;) :P
Alediran 12-31-07, 06:28 AM	-Or, people who are suffering from insomnia. Like me. I think in the past 5 days (which seem like one continuous thing), I've slept maybe ten hours or so... I'll not be able to sleep well until thursday because we are experiencing a heat wave over 37 celsius degrees.
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 07:02 AM	I'll not be able to sleep well until thursday because we are experiencing a heat wave over 37 celsius degrees. -I'll take some of that heat. I'm sitting here in my boxers, with a blanket draped over me. Kind of redundant, I know, but...
GothicDan 12-31-07, 09:47 AM	Put on some clothes, you fool. I'm starting to like heat/sun more and more. Which is good, considering the various UC's are at the top of my list of grad schools. And U. Wash, Seattle, but there's that silly rain to deal with. Seratonin, I'll miss you.
18DELTA 12-31-07, 09:59 AM	Delta- That explains why you're here then... ;) :P Yes sir!!! Takes one to know one right? Spot it, if you got it. Water allways seeks the same level. ;) :P :D
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 10:19 AM	Put on some clothes, you fool. -Oh, I have. Since I posted that, I've showered, put more clothes on (that blanket is still on, though), and have compiled all of the Elven deities into a massive PDF. Step one of a completed EoF. Makes me happy, though it's still nowhere near complete.
Alediran 12-31-07, 10:38 AM	-Oh, I have. Since I posted that, I've showered, put more clothes on (that blanket is still on, though), and have compiled all of the Elven deities into a massive PDF. Step one of a completed EoF. Makes me happy, though it's still nowhere near complete. Can we see it?
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 10:41 AM	-Not done. :P
Stigger 12-31-07, 01:24 PM	Always some excuse with archmages... ;) Not sure I like the idea of a Dan in the UC system though... unless its one in Southern California. That I might be able to deal with. :P
Lord Karsus 12-31-07, 01:31 PM	-It's 99% done. I just can't figure out how to fix the bookmarks. Anyone who wants a sneak-peek copy, just PM me, with your E-Mail.
Stigger 12-31-07, 01:47 PM	Outsource the bookmark thing to someone who knows how, given them a tiny little credit in nearly microscopic print, and you should be okay... :D
MarkusTay63 12-31-07, 02:42 PM	-Long live Karsus, killer of the Sprouts!You know, this reminds me of the time I brought the Smurfs into FR (they are similar to that little "Sprout" guy that hangs with the Jolly Green Giant). Basically, they were a species of intelligent, ambulatory Broccoli - and quite handy as a food source (if you recall, Gargamel was always trying to EAT them in the first season). I figured starving PCs might have to face a moral dilema, but it never happened. They just smushed them for the fun of it, even though they weren't hungry. No dilema there. :D If I ever decide to bring them back (for comic relief), I might go with the later-season premise instead, where you turn them into gold. The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy did a spoof on that, and it got me thinking... That cartoon also parodied Lolth the Spider Queen, and pokes fun of D&D all the time, so you know the writers are gamer nerds. Of course, if I go with the Gold thing, I won't be able to use Gargamel's Gargantuan Cookbook, which contained some pretty nifty recipes using Smurfs. Or Sprouuts... if you prefer... :P
GothicDan 12-31-07, 10:21 PM	Not sure I like the idea of a Dan in the UC system though... unless its one in Southern California. That I might be able to deal with. Why's this? Going to apply to San Diego, LA, and possibly Berkeley. :)
Stigger 01-01-08, 01:33 PM	No Berkeley... far too close to me for my liking. Not sure California is big enough to handle both of our egos...
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 01:48 PM	-California's extreme liberal leanings might influence Dan. -As a side note, I always find it funny that one of the most liberal states, California, has a history of electing Republcan governors, with 22 (as opposed to 15 Democrats).
Stigger 01-01-08, 02:01 PM	We're hardly as liberal as most people make us out to be. If anything, I find most of the state incredibly conservative, they just do it in a different way than the conservatives in the rest of the country. Not that there's much difference between conservative and liberal these days... both want to control our behaviour and take our money. Only real difference is what behaviour to control, and what they spend the money on. Which simply illustrates how two essentially similar things can have such radically different views on the world. Which, of course, highlights that you can have two different LG types with radically different personalities and preferences, to bring it slightly back towards D&D, since Torm and Tyr were both LG types... :D
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 02:41 PM	Which simply illustrates how two essentially similar things can have such radically different views on the world. Which, of course, highlights that you can have two different LG types with radically different personalities and preferences, to bring it slightly back towards D&D, since Torm and Tyr were both LG types... :D -I always saw Torm as the "proactive, go getter" LG guy, taking things into his own hands, whereas Tyr as the "reactive" LG guy, professing and being LG, but in a more...subdued, less flashy manner.
Stigger 01-01-08, 03:33 PM	Yeah, pretty much my take on them both.
Kenzuki 01-01-08, 05:37 PM	Except Tyr freaked out over a woman and lost two allies and killed a third in the process.....
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-01-08, 05:43 PM	Un pelo de chocha jala mas que la soga de un barco... PM me for a tranlation.
Kenzuki 01-01-08, 05:44 PM	Un pelo de chocha jala mas que la soga de un barco... PM me for a tranlation. Um....Ok?
GreenKnight 01-01-08, 05:51 PM	Un pelo de chocha jala mas que la soga de un barco "One ***** hair pulls more tightly then a noose", or something to that effect. I know what he means, but I'm not exactly certain how to express the same sentiment in english.
MarkusTay63 01-01-08, 05:54 PM	In other words, sometimes men think with the wrong head... even divine ones. ;) *Not that I agree with that imbecilic storyline what-so-ever.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-01-08, 05:59 PM	"One ***** hair pulls more tightly then a noose", or something to that effect. I know what he means, but I'm not exactly certain how to express the same sentiment in english. Tha's why i had to say it in spanish:P
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-01-08, 06:00 PM	*Not that I agree with that imbecilic storyline what-so-ever. Hey, I'm with you...
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 08:03 PM	Hey, I'm with you... -I bet you would be, you sly dog. :cool:
XHereticX 01-01-08, 08:58 PM	Iron Maiden's pretty good. NWOBM with operatic vocals=sex for the ears. Of course I listen to far more brutal stuff these days. Kung-Fu action Jesus in control of the Triad? First good 4e development I have come across all day:), just hope that they don't kill off Tyr though.
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 09:12 PM	Kung-Fu action Jesus in control of the Triad? First good 4e development I have come across all day:), just hope that they don't kill off Tyr though. -I believe that Tyr is being phased out, in favor of Torm. GreenKnight's doing (supposedly), actually. So, blame him.
Kenzuki 01-01-08, 09:30 PM	Think of it as putting a lame animal down. The guy is blind and missing one arm already.... What they SHOULD have done was made Tyr and Helm be reduced to Avatar form so that their deity levels didn't effect it and then have them duke it out in melee with skill. I bet Helm would have kicked his tail what with him missing an arm and being blind.
MarkusTay63 01-01-08, 11:03 PM	They are just setting us for an uber-module down the pipe, where we get to bring Tyr back from whereevr he runs off to. It'll be called "To Spare Tyr", what else? ;)
Lord Karsus 01-01-08, 11:16 PM	It'll be called "To Spare Tyr", what else? ;) -That I pronounce it 'Teer/Tier' makes that joke unfunny to me.
MarkusTay63 01-02-08, 12:37 AM	Well, I've always pronounced it "tire", so it's funny as hell to me. But what do I know... I think cats caught in my tire treads are funny... :rolleyes:
GreenKnight 01-02-08, 01:09 AM	-I believe that Tyr is being phased out, in favor of Torm. GreenKnight's doing (supposedly), actually. So, blame him. Yes, blame me. Wait, what?!? -That I pronounce it 'Teer/Tier' makes that joke unfunny to me. Well, I've always pronounced it "tire", so it's funny as hell to me. This reminds me of something from way back in high school. Our english teacher gave us an assignment where we had to write our own entry for The Canterbury Tales. We could either write it as a poem, or as a short story (I was the only one in the class who opted to write a poem). In it, I rhymed "fear" with "Tyre" (as in the city of Tyre), thinking that it was pronounced 'Teer/Tier'. Unfortunately, when the teacher read it outloud, she pronounced it "tire", and then promptly labelled that a lame rhyme. Damn it. :weep:
Alediran 01-02-08, 09:30 AM	Un pelo de chocha jala mas que la soga de un barco... PM me for a tranlation. Ninguna traduccion por favor. It can sound very bad :D. Argentina's version is even more aggresive.
Lord Karsus 01-02-08, 09:43 AM	Yes, blame me. Wait, what?!? -Don't ask me, I don't know. In it, I rhymed "fear" with "Tyre" (as in the city of Tyre), thinking that it was pronounced 'Teer/Tier'. Unfortunately, when the teacher read it outloud, she pronounced it "tire", and then promptly labelled that a lame rhyme. Damn it. :weep: -Heh, my cousin, his roomate, and 75% of the baseball team I am on are teachers. Some of the funniest things I've ever heard, I swear. Lemme just give one example. It was...Chrismas Eve, and I was at my aunt/uncle's house for dinner. My cousin and his roommate live nextdoor. My sister and I went nextdoor to help my father cook (my cousin has a bigger kitchen). While we were cooking, Ian (my cousins roommate), comes out to talk, and begins grading papers. In a completely calm (due to the massive amounts of weed he smokes), he says to my sister, "You ever read Romeo and Juliet?" She responds no, and as he writes an 'F' on the paper he was grading, he comments, "Neither did he". :rofl:
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 02:26 PM	Ninguna traduccion por favor. It can sound very bad :D. Argentina's version is even more aggresive. Como dirian esto en Argentina?
Alediran 01-02-08, 03:22 PM	Como dirian esto en Argentina? Un pelo de concha tira mas que una yunta de bueyes. I hope you get the meaning of the words. You know how Argentina has it's own version of Spanish.
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 03:53 PM	I was wondering what is the difference between the Forgotten Realms Tyr and the Asgardian Tyr in D&D. I mean besides the flavor and history. What are their deity levels and portfolios?
XHereticX 01-02-08, 03:57 PM	I was wondering what is the difference between the Forgotten Realms Tyr and the Asgardian Tyr in D&D. I mean besides the flavor and history. What are their deity levels and portfolios? Deities and Demigods/Faiths and Pantheons will have the answers you need. Also remember, Tyr in FR was an interloper deity (supposedly from Earth), so I would assume the two Tyrs are one and the same.
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 04:00 PM	I see. So one could say that Tyr was from earth but maybe left Earth when people no longer worshipped him and came to Faerun and became the Greater God of Justice?
Selvarin 01-02-08, 04:08 PM	Green didn't exactly do it, he just gave them a reason to kill Tyr off sooner rather than later. And frankly the Asgardian Tyr is twice the man the Faerunian Tyr was made out to be. Again, the writers.
XHereticX 01-02-08, 04:11 PM	I see. So one could say that Tyr was from earth but maybe left Earth when people no longer worshipped him and came to Faerun and became the Greater God of Justice? Hey, the same thing happened to the Egyptian Gods (Mulhorandi Pantheon), Ancient Middle-Eastern gods (Untheric Pantheon), and I think even the Greek gods. It is the FORGOTTEN Realms after all. One day a plain-looking Jewish man will walk unto a decimated and war-torn Faerun and say :" Come to me my children, come to salvation, for I am your Lord." ;)
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 04:14 PM	FR had the Greek gods too?
XHereticX 01-02-08, 04:16 PM	FR had the Greek gods too? Not sure, but I think that in some 2nd edition book something like that was put down.
Selvarin 01-02-08, 04:20 PM	Sune, at least, was noted as being 'suspiciously like' Aphrodite. And then people point to Eilistraee being like Diana the Hunter.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 04:25 PM	Un pelo de concha tira mas que una yunta de bueyes. I hope you get the meaning of the words. You know how Argentina has it's own version of Spanish. Lol! I'll use that one now...
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 04:32 PM	Sune, at least, was noted as being 'suspiciously like' Aphrodite. And then people point to Eilistraee being like Diana the Hunter. Diana was Roman though right? Artemis was her Greek counterpart wasn't she?
GreenKnight 01-02-08, 04:33 PM	I was wondering what is the difference between the Forgotten Realms Tyr and the Asgardian Tyr in D&D. I mean besides the flavor and history. What are their deity levels and portfolios? Faiths & Pantheons: TYR RANK: Greater PORTFOLIOS: Justice Deities & Demigods: TYR RANK: Intermediate PORTFOLIOS: Courage, Trust, Strategy, Tactics, Writing
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 04:36 PM	Though the Asgardian Tyr seems weeker in divine rank I think I like him better judging by his portfolios. Plus I don't think he would go berserk and shoothimself in the foot like FR Tyr did over Tymora and lost three allies over it. Sune got two of them and he killed the other....
Selvarin 01-02-08, 04:41 PM	Artemis, Diana. It's all Greek/Roman to me. :P It's past arguing since it's been written but FR's Tyr is out of character. Then again I used more of the Norse flavor. Oh, and in 1e D&DG He was a greater god. Whooped 'botox' (misused on purpose). ---S.
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 04:44 PM	Artemis, Diana. It's all Greek/Roman to me. :P It's past arguing since it's been written but FR's Tyr is out of character. Then again I used more of the Norse flavor. Oh, and in 1e D&DG He was a greater god. Whooped 'botox' (misused on purpose). ---S. Well love causes people to do strange things sometimes, especially if love turns into jealousy. Tyr got jealous of Helm and killed him. Case closed.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 04:45 PM	Lol! I'll use that one now... As for the difference between FR Tyr and The asgardin one (from Deities and Demigods) Holy Symbol FR Tyr:Balanced scales resting on warhammer DaD Tyr:Sword Aligment FR Tyr:LG DaD Tyr:LN Porfolio FR Tyr:Justice DaD Tyr:Courage, trust, strategy, tactics, Writing (WTF?) Domains FR Tyr:Good, Knowledge, Law, Retribution, War DaD Tyr:Law, Protection, War
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 04:49 PM	Well love causes people to do strange things sometimes, especially if love turns into jealousy. Tyr got jealous of Helm and killed him. Case closed. That's what I said (in a really rude matter)
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 04:50 PM	See the Asgardian Tyr is even the same alignment as Helm so I doubt he would have went crackers over Tymora like that and killed Helm. I bet Bane laughed real long and hard at the whole ordeal. Bane: Tyr thinks he's soo just and righteous when really he's just another tyrant who kills when things don't go his way....like me! Ha ha ha ha bwahahahaha!
XHereticX 01-02-08, 04:55 PM	See the Asgardian Tyr is even the same alignment as Helm so I doubt he would have went crackers over Tymora like that and killed Helm. I bet Bane laughed real long and hard at the whole ordeal. Bane: Tyr thinks he's soo just and righteous when really he's just another tyrant who kills when things don't go his way....like me! Ha ha ha ha bwahahahaha! Just shows how petty and human the Faerunian gods are, which is why I love them so much :D , though I do admit the murder of Helm was definatly a major OOC moment for Tyr. You shoudn't have a LG deity act NE, that's just messed up. Bane is the real winner of 4th edition. Most of his major adversaries are either dead or sinking into incompetence and now he is a god of war too. HAIL BANE!!!! (of course he has to deal with a Greater Deity Torm now)
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 05:02 PM	I don't think it's impossible for a LG deity to do something evil. It's all in what they CHOOSE to do. The gods have shown that they are not above emotion. They can experience love, hate, friendship, and apparantly jealousy. Even if adultery isn't seen as a sin in the Realms unless a child comes of it (which is still weird imho) I bet you a large sum of gold that they DO feel jealousy. If they didn't they aren't human. You've got to weigh in all the facts here and when you do it sort of does make sense. Tyr loved Tymora and felt that Helm was taking her from him. So he challenged him to a duel and Helm being the honorable god that he was couldn't refuse so he accepted and Tyr killed him. Of course this had the effect of breaking the Triad unsurprisingly. I'm honestly shocked that Torm who supposedly understood Helm more than anyone and was his best friend or something didn't leave with Ilmater.
Storm_Silverhand 01-02-08, 05:04 PM	Heya, As for the difference between FR Tyr and The asgardin one (from Deities and Demigods) Holy Symbol FR Tyr:Balanced scales resting on warhammer DaD Tyr:Sword Aligment FR Tyr:LG DaD Tyr:LN Porfolio FR Tyr:Justice DaD Tyr:Courage, trust, strategy, tactics, Writing (WTF?) Domains FR Tyr:Good, Knowledge, Law, Retribution, War DaD Tyr:Law, Protection, War Looks like they changed Tyr between 2nd and 3rd Edition. 2nd Edition Legends and Lore has his information as follows: Holy Symbol: Sword Alignment: Lawful Good Portfolio: Swordsmanship, courage, law 1st Edition Legends and Lore has the same information. I had to check, because I used to use the Norse pantheon as the pantheon of one of the kingdoms of my first homebrewed world, and I distinctly remembered Tyr being Lawful Good. Also, someone was asking about Greek interlopers? There's really only been one AFAIK, and that was Tyche (she who later split into Tymora and Beshaba).
GothicDan 01-02-08, 05:07 PM	Dionysus very briefly was about in the Bloodstone Lands, but they got rid of him quickly, Thank the RPG Gods.
XHereticX 01-02-08, 05:07 PM	I don't think it's impossible for a LG deity to do something evil. It's all in what they CHOOSE to do. The gods have shown that they are not above emotion. They can experience love, hate, friendship, and apparantly jealousy. Even if adultery isn't seen as a sin in the Realms unless a child comes of it (which is still weird imho) I bet you a large sum of gold that they DO feel jealousy. If they didn't they aren't human. You've got to weigh in all the facts here and when you do it sort of does make sense. Tyr loved Tymora and felt that Helm was taking her from him. So he challenged him to a duel and Helm being the honorable god that he was couldn't refuse so he accepted and Tyr killed him. Of course this had the effect of breaking the Triad unsurprisingly. I'm honestly shocked that Torm who supposedly understood Helm more than anyone and was his best friend or something didn't leave with Ilmater. Tyr is supposed to be just and fair though, there is nothing just or fair about having a friend work like a dog to bring your the woman of your dreams then killing him as payment just because you have a slight suspicion he was hitting on her. At least give him a chance to explain or a trial. Being a LG deity of Justice, you probably have to act the part. It dosen't mean you turn into an emotionless fountain of divine power, it just means that your actions should serve as an archetype for your porfolios.
GreenKnight 01-02-08, 05:07 PM	and now he is a god of war too. HAIL BANE!!!! Remember that what's true in the Core Setting isn't necessarily true in the Realms. Just because he holds the Portfolio of War in the Core Pantheon, it doesn't mean he'll also hold it in the Faerunian Pantheon. For example, look at Tyr, there. He's got the Portfolio of Justice in the Faerunian Pantheon, and the Portfolios of Courage, Trust, Strategy, Tactics, and Writing in the Asgardian Pantheon. A more on the point example is Bane, himself, who's also worshipped in Ravelonft. In the Faerunian Pantheon, he has the Portfolios of Fear, Hatred, and Tyranny. But in Ravenloft, his Portfolios are Law, Fate, Judgment, Obedience, Order, Rulership, and Tyranny. (of course he has to deal with a Greater Deity Torm now) And don't forget his plucky sidekick, the Green Knight! :D
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 05:10 PM	That's what DaD said... I looked for it just to right that down :)
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 05:13 PM	Tyr is supposed to be just and fair though, there is nothing just or fair about having a friend work like a dog to bring your the woman of your dreams then killing him as payment just because you have a slight suspicion he was hitting on her. At least give him a chance to explain or a trial. Being a LG deity of Justice, you probably have to act the part. It dosen't mean you turn into an emotionless fountain of divine power, it just means that your actions should serve as an archetype for your porfolios. So he can't make a mistake? He can't feel jealousy? He can't feel that he was done an injustice by Helm and thus seek to punish him for his "betrayle". Honestly they should do a trial and let Asmodeus be the Prosecutor. He'd have a field day with Tyr lol. "Isn't it true Tyr that on your world of origin you were worshipped by a race of people that were raiders and pillagers, rapists and berserkers, oh and that went into drunken rages? Tell me Tyr....did you have some drinks before this happened?" "Um....yes..." "I rest my case...."
Storm_Silverhand 01-02-08, 05:17 PM	Heya, You've got to weigh in all the facts here and when you do it sort of does make sense. Tyr loved Tymora and felt that Helm was taking her from him. So he challenged him to a duel and Helm being the honorable god that he was couldn't refuse so he accepted and Tyr killed him. Of course this had the effect of breaking the Triad unsurprisingly. I'm honestly shocked that Torm who supposedly understood Helm more than anyone and was his best friend or something didn't leave with Ilmater. *eyebrow quirks up* What you talking about, Kenzuki? Sune arranged a political marriage between Tyr and Tymora. There was no love involved... It wasn't like Tyr fell in love with her and asked Sune for Tymora's hand in marriage - it was like this... Tyr argues with Siamorphe, who then moves over to Brightwater. Tyr goes to Sune to air his greviance. Sune suggests a marriage to Tymora to balance the scales. Tyr agrees. Tyr decides to go all traditional, and asks Helm to be his intermediary. Tyr thinks Helm is trying to steal Tymora from him. Tyr fights Helm and kills him. We are never, at any stage, told that love is involved anywhere in the process - despite Sune being the one who suggested the arrangement in the first place. Every deity involved, except maybe Helm, was acting out of character. Sune would never suggest a loveless political marriage. Tyr would never attack Helm without proof that it was just... and knowing Tymora, I doubt he'd really have wanted to marry her anyway. (She's Chaotic Good, known to be fickle and a troublemaker, she likes to pull pranks on those deities she thinks are staid and stick in the mud (of which Tyr has probably been a target multiple times), she is romantically linked to another deity already (Brandobaris), and she isn't likely to be faithful.) Tymora would not have agreed to marry Tyr in the first place, and she certainly would NOT have gone with Tyr after he murdered Helm. We don't know too much about what Helm's role was in all this, just that he was acting as a go between for Tyr. What is it with people seeing the word "marriage" and immediately thinking love? It's an arranged marriage for political reasons, people!
Selvarin 01-02-08, 05:21 PM	And it is a poorly written, lame excuse to use as a means to get rid of Helm (and usher Tyr out). Years from now people will still remark about how awful it was and how badly it presaged the coming of 4eFR. There is no logical rationale for any of it. And those responsible for that little piece of...literature...will carry that knowledge with them the rest of their days. It is a black mark upon the Realms. Case closed.
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 05:24 PM	So it's impossible that Tyr DID have feelings for Tymora? The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence.
XHereticX 01-02-08, 05:24 PM	Kenzuki, literally all of the "evil" acts good deities have perpetrated throughout Faerun's history (ex. dawn Cataclysm) was a result of their own stupidity and shortcomings as in alignment with their own porfolios (Lathander's own naivete for example) Last time I checked, I don't recall illogical madness fueled betrayals which as according to Storm, don't even stem from love, as a result of anything in Tyr's porfolios. He is the greater god of justice for crying out loud, his sense of what is true and just should have been better than anyone's. I think WoTC was just desperate to put a little drama into what they thought were the "stale" FR and had Tyr act like Cyric for no apparent reason.
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 05:29 PM	Kenzuki, literally all of the "evil" acts good deities have perpetrated throughout Faerun's history (ex. dawn Cataclysm) was a result of their own stupidity and shortcomings as in alignment with their own porfolios (Lathander's own naivete for example) Last time I checked, I don't recall illogical madness fueled betrayals which as according to Storm, don't even stem from love, as a result of anything in Tyr's porfolios. He is the greater god of justice for crying out loud, his sense of what is true and just should have been better than anyone's. I think WoTC was just desperate to put a little drama into what they thought were the "stale" FR and had Tyr act like Cyric for no apparent reason. I still say it's possible that Tyr saw Helm's actions as being unjust and wanted to settle the matter.
XHereticX 01-02-08, 05:35 PM	I still say it's possible that Tyr saw Helm's actions as being unjust and wanted to settle the matter. Apparently Tyr's judgement was a far cry from being actually just. Since no other apparent factors are involved (with love out of the question), either Tyr was actually a closet Mafia Don or this was just another sad attempt by WoTC to attract younger players.
Selvarin 01-02-08, 05:35 PM	I think WoTC was just desperate to put a little drama into what they thought were the "stale" FR and had Tyr act like Cyric for no apparent reason. Yep, and the result was whizz-poor writing. I don't think he acted like Cyric--Tyr will hit you from the front whereas Cyric will stab you in the back (or murder a family member to hurt you, etc.)...In any event the whole deal was major OOC. It's not like he got ticked and ordered Torm to apprehend Helm to stand trial for (alleged) adultery, there was no process except an accusation, a denial, and then a showdown.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 05:35 PM	So it's impossible that Tyr DID have feelings for Tymora? The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. I understand what you are saying, And let's say that Tyr IS in love With Tymora, he should know better than that. He's a god first just like Kel "stoped" loving Mystra...
Storm_Silverhand 01-02-08, 05:35 PM	Heya, So it's impossible that Tyr DID have feelings for Tymora? The absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence. Tyr and Tymora have very little to do with each other (except when Tymora is playing a prank, I suppose). They live in separate places in the Planar arrangement of things (Tymora being the major mover and shaker behind the formation of Brightwater (not Sune), and Tyr living and ruling in the House of the Triad), Tyr is LG, Tymora CG, Tyr is faithful and constant, Tymora is fickle, likely to change her mind at the drop of a hat. The only way they could be more different if one or the other was Neutral or Evil. Tymora is already romantically linked to Brandobaris. Tyr would know most likely know that to begin with, and being the kind of God he is, I doubt he'd want to come between them. Looking at it from a coldly political point of view - Tymora would be an asset. She's Good Luck (literally), she's an intermediate deity who really should be a Greater deity by now (given that her church has always been on the up and up as far as the Realms goes). She's way more powerful than puny little Siamorphe (no offense to the Divine Right, because I really do like her), so the scales aren't just balanced, they're tilting towards the House of the Triad after the arrangement, IMHO even after Ilmater left. Love is such a big thing, that if there was love between Tymora and Tyr, it would/should have been mentioned. Until then, I'm writing this off as some designer having overdosed on daytime soap operas before setting this plot out. More than the death of Mystra and the Weave, more than the change of Eilistraee, it is this plot alone that has made me decide to end my Realms collection with AGHotR (which I got last week, at long freaking last).
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 05:38 PM	I understand what you are saying, And let's say that Tyr IS in love With Tymora, he should know better than that. He's a god first just like Kel "stoped" loving Mystra... GHotR read that it was an interpretation of a Law that drove Try to kill Helm not jelousy...
XHereticX 01-02-08, 05:39 PM	Yep, and the result was whizz-poor writing. I don't think he acted like Cyric--Tyr will hit you from the front whereas Cyric will stab you in the back (or murder a family member to hurt you, etc.)...In any event the whole deal was major OOC. It's not like he got ticked and ordered Torm to apprehend Helm to stand trial for (alleged) adultery, there was no process except an accusation, a denial, and then a showdown. Nah, that more like what Mask would do. Cyric'd just find some way to kill you for no apparent reason no matter what it took. All in all though, I don't really care. I'm still gonna buy 4e products just because I love to keep up with the FR storyline.
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 05:39 PM	Yeah I guess you're right. I guess I was just trying to make sense of the whole thing in my own mind. Maybe they will clarify the issue further in the new campaign guide to make better sense of it. I do agree it was like a soap opra and I really liked Helm.
GothicDan 01-02-08, 05:46 PM	I liked almost all of the deities involved, except Cyric. Some of my favorites got canned - Mystra and Azuth. :( The only good thing I can see coming out of this is the power Selune will gain.
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 05:48 PM	I liked almost all of the deities involved, except Cyric. Some of my favorites got canned - Mystra and Azuth. :( The only good thing I can see coming out of this is the power Selune will gain. Azuth and Velsharoon didn't die though did they? (still doesn't have the book)
Selvarin 01-02-08, 05:54 PM	I've been guilty of purchasing FR books in the past for just that reason. I'm not giving WotC a pass on this though. There are competing needs for what's in the wallet so unless it actually adds to the game it isn't going to wind up on my bookshelf.
MarkusTay63 01-02-08, 05:54 PM	Azuth and Velsharoon didn't die though did they? (still doesn't have the book)As of 1385, they are just in hiding. More then likely, we will see them in 4e, because otherwise WotC would have just killed them already and been done with it. Personally, I would like to have seen them deep-6 Cyric and Kelemvor, and bring back Myrkul and Baal - thats what I did IMG. I didn't kill them though -I'm not as cruel as the designers - I just demoted them to demi-power status.
GreenKnight 01-02-08, 05:54 PM	It was Savras who died. Azuth and Velsharoon are still around, although they're LOOOSSSTTT IIINNN SSSPPPAAACCCEEE!!!
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 06:02 PM	It was Savras who died. Azuth and Velsharoon are still around, although they're LOOOSSSTTT IIINNN SSSPPPAAACCCEEE!!! I could see a novel about the crazy adventures of Azuth and Velsharoon as they wander space. Fighting for survival, arguing the whole time like Jack Sparrow and Barbosa.
GreenKnight 01-02-08, 06:05 PM	I like Cyric and Kelemvor, myself. That doesn't mean you can't have all four, though. It's really quite easy. - Kelemvor remains the same, as Greater God of Death and the Dead. - Cyric remains the same, as Greater God of Murder, Strife, Lies, Intrigue, Deception, and Illusion. - Myrkul comes back as the Greater God of Wasting, Decay, Corruption, Parasites, Old Age, Dusk, Fall, and Exhaustion (Along with the Dead, those were his old Portfolios. And with the exception of the Dead and Fall, they all lie unclaimed. And it'd be pretty easy for him to strip Fall away from Mielikki). - Bhaal comes back as the Demigod of Murder, Death, and Violence (It's possible for more then one god in a Pantheon to hold the same Portfolio, so long as only one of them is a higher rank then Demigod. Come to think of it, Leira could come back as Demigod of Deception and Illusion without upsetting Cyric's apple cart, too). IMO, it's a whole lot more interesting to have Myrkul as a Greater God alongside Cyric and Kelemvor. That gives you a nice bit of conflict, there, between Kelemvor and Myrkul. And check out Myrkul's Portfolios and compare them to Lathander's. He's pretty much Lathander's opposite number. Personally, I think it'd be fun to have all of them in the mix like that, but then again, maybe that's just me.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 06:15 PM	I like Cyric and Kelemvor, myself. That doesn't mean you can't have all four, though. It's really quite easy. - Kelemvor remains the same, as Greater God of Death and the Dead. - Cyric remains the same, as Greater God of Murder, Strife, Lies, Intrigue, Deception, and Illusion. - Myrkul comes back as the Greater God of Wasting, Decay, Corruption, Parasites, Old Age, Dusk, Fall, and Exhaustion (Along with the Dead, those were his old Portfolios. And with the exception of the Dead and Fall, they all lie unclaimed. And it'd be pretty easy for him to strip Fall away from Mielikki). - Bhaal comes back as the Demigod of Murder, Death, and Violence (It's possible for more then one god in a Pantheon to hold the same Portfolio, so long as only one of them is a higher rank then Demigod. Come to think of it, Leira could come back as Demigod of Deception and Illusion without upsetting Cyric's apple cart, too). IMO, it's a whole lot more interesting to have Myrkul as a Greater God alongside Cyric and Kelemvor. That gives you a nice bit of conflict, there, between Kelemvor and Myrkul. And check out Myrkul's Portfolios and compare them to Lathander's. He's pretty much Lathander's opposite number. Personally, I think it'd be fun to have all of them in the mix like that, but then again, maybe that's just me. I will rip that off if I may...:D
XHereticX 01-02-08, 06:35 PM	I like that, except you should raise Bhaal back up into a greater god and cast Cyric to the pits:D
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-02-08, 06:39 PM	actually I like Cyric as a god of Madness...
GreenKnight 01-02-08, 06:40 PM	True, but I was operating under the assumption that it's best not to eliminate gods. And Cyric's tolerable, so long as he's not the only evil game in town. Besides, I like the idea of Bhaal serving Bane as his divine assassin. :D
Stigger 01-02-08, 06:47 PM	I'm seriously contemplating setting a new campaign in the late 1200's DR so I don't have to deal with any of this divinity-as-soap-opera crap.
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 06:53 PM	True, but I was operating under the assumption that it's best not to eliminate gods. And Cyric's tolerable, so long as he's not the only evil game in town. Besides, I like the idea of Bhaal serving Bane as his divine assassin. :D Bhaal as the divine assassin of Bane is full of win! And on that topic I would LOVE a novel about the mortal adventures of Bane, Myrkul and Bhaal as they attain Godgood. Maybe it could be a trilogy.
Stigger 01-02-08, 07:42 PM	That would be pretty interesting as a novel actually... helpful too for 4e since we're supposed to be beating up deities by 30th.
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 07:54 PM	That would be pretty interesting as a novel actually... helpful too for 4e since we're supposed to be beating up deities by 30th. Exactly. Don't forget taking their phat lewt. But seriously, it would be awesome. Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul as a trio of anti-heroes fighting on a quest to achieve godhood. It would offer alot of insight into the past of the Realms as well and you could see Jergal in all his glory.:D
Stigger 01-02-08, 08:04 PM	Ah, phat lewt... how could I have forgotten. Silly me. Hope they don't nerf it when the time comes for us to see it... I'd hate to waste a raid for nothing. ;) Though I really would like to see that novel written, despite the snarky spin I put on the end there. Might sound odd considering my statement in the other thread about not caring for WotC's ideas for deities, but I think it might help me to figure out more about those three if we could get a glimpse of them from when they were still mortal.
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 08:17 PM	Aye my thoughts exactly. We don't know very much about the Dark Three when they were mortals do we? Where did they come from, what race of human were they? How did they get together and come up with this idea, etc.
XHereticX 01-02-08, 08:18 PM	Plus these novels could provide us with more information on Borem and the Seven Lost Gods as well.
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 08:24 PM	Indeed! That's the spirit! You can find out more about the future by studying the past! Plus I want to see some Bhaal/Bane/Myrkul action.
GreenKnight 01-02-08, 08:30 PM	Likewise. The only thing that'd make it better is if there were a fourth book detailing Bane's resurrection. Now that's a series I want to read. The rise, fall, and rise of Bane.
XHereticX 01-02-08, 08:31 PM	Likewise. The only thing that'd make it better is if there were a fourth book detailing Bane's resurrection. Now that's a series I want to read. The rise, fall, and rise of Bane. Mein Kampf for Faerunians? Now that would be interesting...
Kenzuki 01-02-08, 08:41 PM	The mental picture of Xvim's body bursting asunder like some infernal cocoon as Bane emerges in all his unholy glory would make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside.
Stigger 01-03-08, 01:25 AM	That's probably the blood oozing out of your ears from the divine shockwave it produced, so I wouldn't get too happy about it... :P :D
Kenzuki 01-03-08, 07:29 PM	You know this is just me but has anyone else wondered if Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul are even their REAL names? I mean what human mother/father names their kids those names? What is Bane turned out to be really "Jeff".;)
Alkasyn 01-03-08, 09:34 PM	You know this is just me but has anyone else wondered if Bane, Bhaal and Myrkul are even their REAL names? I mean what human mother/father names their kids those names? What is Bane turned out to be really "Jeff".;) Or Richard?
Kenzuki 01-03-08, 09:40 PM	Richard Baker is BANE!!!!
Stigger 01-04-08, 12:17 AM	I'm betting that they're aliases... as the real thing would be kinda silly with the whole true name angle you could get going.
Darth K'Trava 01-04-08, 11:47 AM	It would really be something if Cyric wasn't totally behind this with Mask helping out by impersonating Tyr and the result ending in Tyr's banishment/leaving.... And both gods laughing it up over a nice cold one.... Although I'm cool with Torm getting a much-needed, and past due, promotion. :D Edit: Saw the "rumor of Cyric's involvement".
18DELTA 01-22-08, 01:22 AM	The mental picture of Xvim's body bursting asunder like some infernal cocoon as Bane emerges in all his unholy glory would make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. -:bow: :emp: :bow: LORD DIRTY DELTA;) :P :D
XHereticX 01-22-08, 08:17 PM	Richard Baker is BANE!!!! No, I'm pretty sure Richard Baker is Dendar the Night Serpent, cause I don't think I'll be waking from this 4E nightmare for a while.
Ody_Saraph_of_Karsus 01-23-08, 10:50 AM	:rofl:
18DELTA 01-23-08, 11:07 AM	No, I'm pretty sure Richard Baker is Dendar the Night Serpent, cause I don't think I'll be waking from this 4E nightmare for a while. -I always thought he was the Chaos Hound!:P DELTA:devil:
GreenKnight 01-23-08, 01:32 PM	-I always thought he was the Chaos Hound!:P DELTA:devil: Devouring the souls of the Faithful? Very good, Delta! Here, have a cookie. :cookie: :)
18DELTA 01-23-08, 03:03 PM	Devouring the souls of the Faithful? Very good, Delta! Here, have a cookie. :cookie: :) :cloud9: LORD DELTA:)
sfdragon 01-25-08, 04:48 AM	here is the real reason Tyr got the shaft http://store.spawn.com/detail.aspx?ID=2081 use the full image of it
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin 01-25-08, 01:36 PM	I don't get it.
sfdragon 01-25-08, 03:11 PM	he was caught moonlighting and was found out to be a tiefling
Kenzuki 01-25-08, 07:29 PM	http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/75/John_Bauer-Tyr_and_Fenrir.jpg/514px- "Damn.....who's idea WAS this anyway!?" - Tyr.
XHereticX 01-25-08, 09:32 PM	-I always thought he was the Chaos Hound!:P DELTA:devil: Hextor+Erythnul+Vecna=Richard Baker My friends, I am afraid the Ebon Triad has succeeded...:(
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 02:28 PM	Well, Green Knight, I eloquently (I hope) state my opinions here. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=983323
GreenKnight 01-26-08, 02:55 PM	That you did. Though I disagree on two points. :) Torms got no thousand yard stare Neither does Tyr. How can you have a thousand yard stare when you've got no eyes? :eek: Tyr is Optimus Prime. Nope, he's Alpha Trion. Alpha Trion led the Autobots, but then chose Optimus Prime to lead them in his stead. Likewise, Tyr chose Torm to be his war leader. Hell, they even look alike. See for yourself. :) http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/233373/2274713A3.jpghttp://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/233373/2274715Tyr1.jpg Not to mention that Torm's fight with Bane was pretty much a mirror of Optimus Prime's fight with Megatron. When Torm said "The Black Lord will be my responsibility", that sounded a whole lot like "Megatron must be stopped... no matter the cost". You could practically here 'The Touch' begin to play loudly in the background at that point. Then he met Megatr-... err, Bane, and the two of them fought each other to the death, just like Optimus Prime and Megatron. And they did so in giant, metallic-looking, avatar forms. ;) Megatron lunged at Optimus Prime to start the fight. Bane lunged at Torm to start the fight. Megatron had Optimus Prime at gunpoint and was about to finish him, but Optimus hit him with a two-fisted punch that finished him off. Bane had Torm in a massive bearhug with his armor spikes puncturing his body, but Torm tore out his throat with his lions jaws. Just like Prime, he avenged his own death. And just like Prime, he came back to life. And so did Megatron/Bane/Galvatron. So there you have it. Torm = Optimus Prime. Ever since the day I read Tantras, I have forever after heard Torm speak with the voice of Peter Cullen. :) BTW: Notice Torm's fondness for turning into a lion? Well, here's Optimus Prime in a cartoon that came out in Japan a few years ago. http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/233373/2274722LC1.jpghttp://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/233373/2274723LC2.jpg :D
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 03:15 PM	While you raise a compelling argument. I still think that it's a bit silly to have Optimus Prime as the sidekick of our hero for the vast majority of the entirety of the Realms history. :-) Ultimately, I always liked the Torm and Bane battle in Tantras (despite how naff that I felt the books tended to be in the Avatar Crisis---no offense Troy), because it was such an utterly one sided looking contest. If this were Bane vs. Tyr than it would be an even contest but the fact was that it was Lord of all Evil vs. a Demigod SIDEKICK. It was the Joker vs. Robin yet Torm didn't back down because Tyr had taught him right. It adds extra poignancy that Torm manages to defeat Bane, even if its at the cost of his life despite how utterly overmatched he was. It was definitely Torm's finest moment (somewhat sullied by the fact that he had to use his own worshipers as fuel in order to pound away at Bane). But I still place Tyr as Bane's archnemesis more than Torm despite the tremendous defeat that he gave the Dark Lord.
GreenKnight 01-26-08, 03:35 PM	While you raise a compelling argument. I still think that it's a bit silly to have Optimus Prime as the sidekick of our hero for the vast majority of the entirety of the Realms history. :-) You're right. Time for Torm to have his War Dawn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzN1TEnN7-Y&feature=related) moment. It's about time that he got elevated to Greater God status, and for his mentor, Obi-Wan/Alpha Trion/etc to step aside. :D (somewhat sullied by the fact that he had to use his own worshipers as fuel in order to pound away at Bane). Not really. They gave their lives willingly. Is it any different then sending troops into battle? Just look at Tyr's Procession of Justice. That was a pretty resounding success. However, most of his troops were banished or killed during it. Does that sully the triumph which Tyr achieved during the Procession? Of course not. There're casualties in every battle. But I still place Tyr as Bane's archnemesis more than Torm despite the tremendous defeat that he gave the Dark Lord. I never much saw them as arch-enemies. His description says he fiercely opposes the evil gods, but he doesn't direct his church to fight them to the same degree that Torm does. Not to mention that his worshippers consist of "Paladins, Judges, Magistrates, Lawyers, Police, and the Oppressed", while Torm's worshippers consist of "Paladins, Heroes, Good Fighters and Warriors, Guardians, Knights, and Loyal Courtiers". You can't really fight evil all that effectively when most of your worshippers are lawyers. :P Nevermind that Bane doesn't consider Tyr to be his archnemesis. Faiths & Pantheons has a list of the gods who Bane hates, starting with those who he hates the most. Torm's #1 on that list with a bullet. Tyr, on the other hand, isn't even on the list. Check it out. http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/137/137974/folders/233373/2274737Torm04.jpg Last but not least... but he's not made the Sacrifice or suffered the Loss that Tyr has. To be fair, it's the other way around. Tyr hasn't made the sacrifice or suffered the loss that Torm has. Tyr just gave up a hand*. Torm gave up his life. *Tyr lost his eyes, too, but they weren't a result of heroic sacrifice or anything like that. That was a result of a gross overreaction on the part of Ao due to Tyr talking back to him. Either way, two eyeballs and a hand don't equal the sacrifice of an immortal life. BTW: Elita-1 = The Red Knight. :D
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 03:51 PM	Unless Torm is a youthful idealistic Champion of Good with love and justice in the mind, then he's not Torm. I don't want a Realms version of Horus-Re's backstory. And frankly, I don't know who will replace Tyr as King of the Gods and the guy for the Old and Wise council. Even if Torm ascends, it'll just look silly.
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 04:23 PM	You're right. Time for Torm to have his War Dawn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzN1TEnN7-Y&feature=related) moment. It's about time that he got elevated to Greater God status, and for his mentor, Obi-Wan/Alpha Trion/etc to step aside. This is where the issue bugs me, because Torm is already a Greater God in my campaigns. He moved from the status of Lesser God to Intermediate quite early in my campaigns and the recent tragedy of 4E made me already write up this new version of Torm. I'll post it in the Gods' thread I have if you want to see it. Not really. They gave their lives willingly. Is it any different then sending troops into battle? Just look at Tyr's Procession of Justice. That was a pretty resounding success. However, most of his troops were banished or killed during it. Does that sully the triumph which Tyr achieved during the Procession? Of course not. There're casualties in every battle. That's true. I never much saw them as arch-enemies. His description says he fiercely opposes the evil gods, but he doesn't direct his church to fight them to the same degree that Torm does. Not to mention that his worshippers consist of "Paladins, Judges, Magistrates, Lawyers, Police, and the Oppressed", while Torm's worshippers consist of "Paladins, Heroes, Good Fighters and Warriors, Guardians, Knights, and Loyal Courtiers". You can't really fight evil all that effectively when most of your worshippers are lawyers. :P That's more a function of their particular roles. Tyr is the head of the Triad where he rules, Torm goes forth and slaughters wickedness, while Ilmater heals the suffering of the wounded that exist around the Realm. Let's not forget that Tyr also has his order of Paladins, of which Torm was formerly one. Nevermind that Bane doesn't consider Tyr to be his archnemesis. Faiths & Pantheons has a list of the gods who Bane hates, starting with those who he hates the most. Torm's #1 on that list with a bullet. Tyr, on the other hand, isn't even on the list. Check it out. Yes, that doesn't even make any sense. Seriously, the Lord Bane doesn't have the Triad on those whom he opposes? Seriously, that's a major freaking violation. Of course, the Gods always have problems with the Lesser Gods devoted to fighting evil. Pelor and Heironimous never get half as much attention as Saint Cuthbert. While Takhasis loathes Kiri-Jolith above Paladine. Still, I never quite bught that Kiri could replace Bahamut. If the Triad reforms, I hope Bahamut is at the head of it. Torm just doesn't have the street cred. To be fair, it's the other way around. Tyr hasn't made the sacrifice or suffered the loss that Torm has. Tyr just gave up a hand*. Torm gave up his life. Yes, and Torm got better. I'm not saying that it's not impressive, it's just the fact that Tyr is pretty much the embodiment of a God of Sacrifice here being the God that stuck his hand into the Mount of Fenri...err Kesef. You can't say that he wouldn't have done the same as Torm. *Tyr lost his eyes, too, but they weren't a result of heroic sacrifice or anything like that. That was a result of a gross overreaction on the part of Ao due to Tyr talking back to him. Either way, two eyeballs and a hand don't equal the sacrifice of an immortal life. BTW: Elita-1 = The Red Knight. :D[/QUOTE] He's a Norse Deity, like Ubato he's pretty much going to be there to the end to die in the coming Apocalypse.
GreenKnight 01-26-08, 05:51 PM	Let's not forget that Tyr also has his order of Paladins, of which Torm was formerly one. Are you sure about that? Becacuse I think Torm was already a god before Tyr appeared in Faerun. Torm was a man serving a mortal monarch in the days immediately following the Fall of Netheril, which occured in -339 DR. Tyr didn't show up in Faerun until -247 DR. So Torm likely achieved godhood a number of years before Tyr even arrived on Faerun, and certainly didn't worship him, as Tyr wasn't even known of on Faerun. If the Triad reforms, I hope Bahamut is at the head of it. Torm just doesn't have the street cred. Well, agree to disagree there, as in my view Torm has more "street cred" then Bahamut and Tyr combined, which not only includes killing Bane, but also helping to dethrone Cyric from his role as Lord Death. Yes, and Torm got better. I'm not saying that it's not impressive, it's just the fact that Tyr is pretty much the embodiment of a God of Sacrifice here being the God that stuck his hand into the Mount of Fenri...err Kesef. You can't say that he wouldn't have done the same as Torm. Maybe, maybe not. That's probably the case. Either way, your statement was factually incorrect, as Torm has not only sacrificed as much as Tyr, he's sacrificed more. That he got better is immaterial, because he had no idea that Ao would resurrect him. Tyr, on the other hand, knew he'd still be alive after Kezef/Fenris/Whoever munched on his hand. Nevermind that when you're a god, losing a hand isn't that much of a drawback. Losing a life, on the other hand, is a pretty big deal. Unless Torm is a youthful idealistic Champion of Good with love and justice in the mind, then he's not Torm. I don't want a Realms version of Horus-Re's backstory. And frankly, I don't know who will replace Tyr as King of the Gods and the guy for the Old and Wise council. Even if Torm ascends, it'll just look silly. Well, agree to disagree, yet again. Even King Arthur was a young man, once. Besides, Torm's been a god in Faerun for pretty much the same length of time that Tyr's been a god in Faerun. So it's not as if Tyr's got a lock on ancient wisdom from Faerun's past. He's a Norse Deity, like Ubato he's pretty much going to be there to the end to die in the coming Apocalypse. The Asgardian apocalypse, not the Faerunian. And he really needs to get back to that pantheon, in case he's late for Ragnarok. :P
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 05:55 PM	Are you sure about that? Becacuse I think Torm was already a god before Tyr appeared in Faerun. Torm was a man serving a mortal monarch in the days immediately following the Fall of Netheril, which occured in -339 DR. Tyr didn't show up in Faerun until -247 DR. So Torm likely achieved godhood a number of years before Tyr even arrived on Faerun, and certainly didn't worship him, as Tyr wasn't even known of on Faerun. I think thats' a continuity error because Torm was supposed to be a Paladin that Tyr elevated to the status of Demigod. Frankly, it's hardly the only such continuity error that exists in the Chronology that we have. Well, agree to disagree there, as in my view Torm has more "street cred" then Bahamut and Tyr combined, which not only includes killing Bane, but also helping to dethrone Cyric from his role as Lord Death. Part of this may be our continuity differences, because Torm is a very very very young god to me. Well, agree to disagree, yet again. Even King Arthur was a young man, once. Besides, Torm's been a god in Faerun for pretty much the same length of time that Tyr's been a god in Faerun. So it's not as if Tyr's got a lock on ancient wisdom from Faerun's past. Very very young ;-) The generational gap is part of the reason there. Selune and Shar, Moradin, Corellon, and so on were around from the beginning of the universe. I tend to think Tyr is close to that age as well. But, ultimately, we'll just have to see what Rich comes up with.
GreenKnight 01-26-08, 06:02 PM	I think thats' a continuity error because Torm was supposed to be a Paladin that Tyr elevated to the status of Demigod. Frankly, it's hardly the only such continuity error that exists in the Chronology that we have. Do you have a source to point to that states that Torm was a worshipper of Tyr in life? Part of this may be our continuity differences, because Torm is a very very very young god to me. He's 1600 years old. Many of the gods walking Faerun these days are far younger. The generational gap is part of the reason there. Selune and Shar, Moradin, Corellon, and so on were around from the beginning of the universe. I tend to think Tyr is close to that age as well. I doubt it. His first appearance was likely with the Asgardians. So how far back does Norse Myth go? Subtract 1600 years, making his first appearance on Faerun around 400 AD. So take whatever point in time he first appeared in Scandinavian myth, count up to the year 400 AD, then add those 1600 years for his full lifespan. Not to much, especially in comparison to the likes of Chauntea, Shar, or Selune, who go back 40,000 years at least.
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 06:14 PM	Oh, here's my Torm bit. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14929571#post14929571 I'm unveiling him in my campaign soon and I'd love your opinion on what works and what doesn't, you seem the resident expert on Torm.
GreenKnight 01-26-08, 06:23 PM	Oh, here's my Torm bit. http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14929571#post14929571 I'm unveiling him in my campaign soon and I'd love your opinion on what works and what doesn't, you seem the resident expert on Torm. God damn it, you're making me blush! Anyway, reading it... So, if Torm is 'Truth' and Tyr is 'Justice', then what does that make Ilmater? 'The American Way'? ;) (I was actually writing him up as a Greater God the other day, and for Portfolios I wrote "Truth, Justice..." and then I did a double-take as I said to myself "Wait a minute. Am I writing an entry for Torm or Superman?") Anyway, I like it, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.
Charles Phipps 01-26-08, 06:36 PM	I altered up Ilmater a bit in my campaigns to more explicitly note he's the God of Healing and Fortitude. There's an easier martial aspect to understand with Ilmaterites in that they just KEEP COMING. ;-) But the Nobanion bit was just a natural fit. Torm and Asla...err Nobanion fit together pefectly.
GreenKnight 01-26-08, 06:48 PM	I altered up Ilmater a bit in my campaigns to more explicitly note he's the God of Healing and Fortitude. There's an easier martial aspect to understand with Ilmaterites in that they just KEEP COMING. Well, this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KO9mMS_VJNU) IS Ilmater's theme song, after all. But the Nobanion bit was just a natural fit. Torm and Asla...err Nobanion fit together pefectly. Agreed. When trying to imagine a 4E House of the Triad, I kept imagining Nobanion as part of it. He definitely does make for a perfect fit in there.
Kenzuki 01-26-08, 10:16 PM	I think Torm should consume Nobanion as they are pretty much the same thing really. Just that Nobanion is the animal version of Torm. Maybe he had to do it to survive the god genocide, who knows?
GothicDan 01-27-08, 01:02 AM	Nobanion is one of my favorite gods. Any WotC designer that nixes him will get nixed by me. And Nobanion is blatantly Aslan. Not Torm.
GreenKnight 01-27-08, 02:25 AM	I think Torm should consume Nobanion as they are pretty much the same thing really. Just that Nobanion is the animal version of Torm. Maybe he had to do it to survive the god genocide, who knows? TORM (GREATER GOD) The True, The Just, The Watcher, The Cannibal (!?!?) Yeah, no thanks. :P
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 04:02 PM	I guess my biggest fear is that this will probably kill Torm. If they do this wrong then Torm is just going to become Bahamut with the wings filed off or just a Tyr substitute. I like Torm as Torm is rather than attempting to make him something that he's not. One of the big annoyances I had with Mulhorandi's Pantheon is that Horus-Re is less interesting than Ra and Horus. The idea of Torm becoming a Static Lawful Lawful God to replace Helm and Tyr as the whipping boy of Confromity doesn't really sit right with me. Also, blunlty, we don't know really what his church is going to be like. Plus a Red Knight/Torm relationship is unlikely if she doesn't exist as a major power.
Kenzuki 01-27-08, 08:53 PM	Nobanion is one of my favorite gods. Any WotC designer that nixes him will get nixed by me. And Nobanion is blatantly Aslan. Not Torm. I see three options for Mufasa. 1. He merges with Torm. Which he's basically the Torm of animals anyway. 2. He becomes a "Saint" of someone. 3. He dies.
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 09:09 PM	Like the Earthmother, if they're going to make Nobanion an aspect then at least make them an aspect of a God it makes sense. Torm works but only if we establish Torm is a VERY older god than he's always come across as.
Kenzuki 01-27-08, 09:12 PM	Like the Earthmother, if they're going to make Nobanion an aspect then at least make them an aspect of a God it makes sense. Torm works but only if we establish Torm is a VERY older god than he's always come across as. Why would he need to be an older god to subsume a weakening demigod?:confused:
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 09:25 PM	Why would he need to be an older god to subsume a weakening demigod?:confused: Mostly, because I'd like to see them revealed to be two facets of the same coin.
Kenzuki 01-27-08, 09:47 PM	Mostly, because I'd like to see them revealed to be two facets of the same coin. I don't like that personally. One was a mortal elevated to Godhood. The other is like Aslan from Narnia meets Mufasa the Lion King.
Charles Phipps 01-27-08, 09:59 PM	I don't like that personally. One was a mortal elevated to Godhood. The other is like Aslan from Narnia meets Mufasa the Lion King. Mostly it just helps remind people the gods aren't very human-like.
XHereticX 01-28-08, 09:15 AM	No, the gods simply take the form of whatever they are being worshipped by. Think about it, would Shar and Mystryl have appeared as humans at a time when all their potential worshippers were lizard-men, bird-men, and frog-men?